March 7, 2025 • 34 mins
In a world filled with conflict and misunderstandings, effective communication has never been more crucial. Join me as I sit down with Terry Tucker, a former SWAT hostage negotiator, who shares invaluable insights on the art of negotiation and transformative communication. Throughout our engaging conversation, Terry emphasizes the importance of understanding the emotional states of those we engage with, revealing that a mere 7% of our message is conveyed through words. Instead, he highlights that tone and body language speak volumes more.
The episode delves into the techniques used in crisis negotiations and their applications in everyday life, focusing on the significance of empathy, mirroring, and building trust. Terry illustrates these principles with intriguing anecdotes from his time as a negotiator, connecting them to parenting and interpersonal relationships, making a compelling case for why everyone can benefit from adopting these strategies.
Terry also tackles common misconceptions about negotiation, particularly concerning conflict resolution in personal relationships and parenting. He encourages listeners to develop their communication skills, reminding us that fostering trust is key to any successful interaction. Whether you're in a high-stakes negotiation or simply navigating daily conversations, the truths shared in this episode can help you achieve better outcomes in your interactions. Don’t miss out on the chance to enhance your communication arsenal! Subscribe now and share your thoughts with us about what designates meaningful communication in your life.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello everyone.
This is your host, Keri Logan,at Master the Upper Rooms, and
today I got a really cool personI'm going to be chatting with
and his name is Terry Tucker.
And what I love the most aboutTerry is he has so much life
experience.
He focuses on self-improvement,life coaching, alternative
(00:24):
health, life experiences,parenting, education.
But the most cool thing aboutTerry is he at one time was a
SWAT hostage negotiator and thatreally stood out for me because
we all know when someone is inthat situation, they are at the
(00:46):
very pit pit bottom of what Iwould call 3D human
consciousness.
They're stuck in shame, regret,humiliation, guilt, and Terry's
the kind of guy to walk on in,try to connect with that person
and move them up to the courageto do something different.
(01:08):
And I would love Terry's insightand wisdom today to share with
all of you the steps that hetakes to achieve that success
and helping people.
Because, as we were chattingearlier before, as we were
chatting earlier before, hepointed out that well, even once
you get that person, let's say,to calm down and all of that,
(01:31):
you still have the neighbors,you got family, you got friends
and there's different ways wecommunicate with people to kind
of prepare them for that.
So today we have a lot to talkabout.
I'm super excited.
So, Terry, welcome to Masterthe Upper Rooms.
How are you today?
Speaker 2 (01:51):
I am great, keri, thanks for having me on.
I'm really looking forward totalking with you today.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Yes, same here.
So let's unpack this Like ifyou could recall a scenario, one
that was, If you could recall ascenario one that was maybe
challenging, and what did you do?
What are the steps that youtake?
And we talked briefly, but Iwant everyone who's listening to
really, really dive in and getthis.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Well, I guess let me start with what I was given when
I started out as a negotiatorand I was given this formula,
and I'll give you the formulaand tell you about it.
But then I'll tell you what Iwas given when I started out as
a negotiator and I was giventhis formula, and I'll give you
the formula and tell you aboutit.
But then I'll tell you why Iwas given it.
I was given the formula.
All of us were as negotiators.
The formula was 738.55.
And it had to do with how we ashuman beings communicate with
(02:40):
each other.
Had nothing to do with policeor SWAT or anything like that,
just how people communicate.
So 7% of how we communicate amessage are the words that we
use.
And think how many times inyour life you've been like, oh,
I wish I hadn't said that or oh,I wish I would have said that
differently.
That's only 7% of how thatmessage comes across to that
(03:00):
person.
38% is the tone of voice thatyou use.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Are you really excited and can't wait to?
Speaker 2 (03:06):
talk late or are you kind of down and depressed and
slow?
So what kind of voice are youusing?
And then 55% of how thatmessage comes across is our body
language and our facialexpressions.
And so we were given thatformula because, as hostage
negotiators, if somebody wasbarricaded in a room with a gun,
(03:28):
or had hostages or was justbarricaded themselves with a gun
, we were not in the room withthat person.
It just wasn't.
That wasn't, wouldn't be safeto do that.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Many times we're outside the door.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Sometimes we were blocks away talking to that
person on the phone, and so wedidn't have the luxury of saying
something to the person and seethem kind of roll their eyes
like, oh what an idiot, I can'tbelieve.
Terry said that to me.
So we had to get good,certainly figuring things out
based on what people were saying, but also what they weren't
(04:03):
saying and how they were sayingit.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
So that's why they gave us that formula.
Now that helps.
I agree, because I've alwayssaid, it's not sometimes what
you say, but how you say it.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah, it really is.
And you know and again I meanyou kind of mentioned it when we
would arrive on scene, A lot oftimes it was like I have no
idea why we're here.
I have no idea whatprecipitated this.
I mean, why is this persondoing what they're doing?
And there was a I guess I gotto sort of dispel this rumor.
(04:42):
So back in the late 1970s or1990s there was a movie called
the Negotiator and Samuel LJackson played this like almost
Superman kind of guy that dideverything.
And I always get the questionis that the way it happens?
No, it's absolutely not the wayit happened.
So you may be the primary, soyou're on the headset talking to
(05:04):
the person no-transcript, hugefight with his mother.
(05:31):
He grabbed the gun, he went inhis bedroom, slammed the door,
barricaded himself, and that'swhat's going on.
Oh, okay, that helps, Becausesometimes you know you're, you
want to appeal to people's.
Oh, you know you love yourparents, you love your children,
you love us, but whatever, itis like well, we're not talking
about his mother atall you know during this
scenario, because of whatprecipitated it tactical empathy
(06:06):
.
I think you can get rid of theword tactical and just talk
about empathy.
So we wouldn't start out bysaying, you know, hey, carrie,
I'm Sergeant Tucker.
It would be, hey, carrie, I'mTerry or hi, I'm Terry.
What's your name?
And a lot of times you get it'snone of your business, you
don't need to know my name.
Okay, what would you like me tocall you?
And so you know, maybe they'dgive you a nickname.
(06:26):
You know, cj or something likethat.
So so you're going back andforth like that.
So then it's CJ.
Help me to understand what'sgoing on today.
You know what?
What's upsetting you?
Where are we right now?
And the important word there isunderstand.
It's not agree.
If I was negotiating withsomebody that was a three-time
(06:49):
homicide suspect, I wasn't goingto say, oh, absolutely, you
should have killed all three ofthose people.
It was understand, becauseunderstanding leads to trust.
And trust gets to a point whereI'm trying to, where I can get
this person out safely, andtrust gets to a point where I'm
trying to, where I can get thisperson out safely.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Yes, because on the chart of human consciousness it
vibrates at the level of 400.
And right above that isactually love, and below the
understanding is acceptance,it's forgiveness, it's
willingness.
Yes, there is trust, there'scourage, there's all of that,
(07:29):
and the hard part is a lot oftimes when people are in that
situation, they're hoping thatyou're willing to work with them
and they're hoping that you'rewilling to see their side of the
story, of their scenario.
And so having thatunderstanding brings about
(07:50):
clarity, because it's not allabout oh, I'm going to judge you
or, and I'm going to condemnyou or, you know, shame you or
ridicule you.
I want to know, you know whathappened.
Help me, help me, like you said, help me understand so I can
better support you as a person.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Yeah, 100%.
And that was.
That was the whole thing.
I mean, if you think about whatwe did as negotiators, it's the
same thing.
So we're trying to build arelationship and what is any
successful relationship built on?
It's built on trust.
You know parent, child, youknow husband, wife, boss,
(08:28):
subordinate.
If you don't trust the otherperson, it's not going to be a
good relationship.
So we were trying to buildtrust by understanding what the
person said to us.
And I may be getting ahead ofmyself, but let me say this
there were times where peoplewould say to us hey, I'll come
(08:49):
out, but you got to promise meI'm not going to go to jail.
And we would have to say really, do you want me to lie to you
right now?
I mean, I've been honest withyou through this entire thing.
Do you want me to lie to younow?
Because I'm not going to lie toyou and I'm going to tell you
that when you do come out, youare going to have to go to jail.
(09:10):
But then we would try todeflect the conversation to
something, you know, somethingbetter, something more palatable
that they could handle.
And we never lied for a lot ofreasons, but one of the big
reasons we never lied and thishappened several times during
the time I was a negotiator isthat maybe a year from now, two
years from now, three years fromnow, we would be right back
(09:31):
negotiating with this person,because as I said, maybe they
had a big fight with theirmother.
Well, mom's still alive andmom's still pushing their
buttons.
And three years from now, momand him have a big blow up and
he grabs a gun, he barricadeshimself again and now we're
right back in it.
But if he ever felt hey, Terry,you lied to me the last time we
(09:52):
did this, my credibility is outthe door.
You're going to have to bringin another negotiator to start
at ground zero and try to buildthat trust again.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
And that would be really, really hard, because you
learned to, you got deceivedthe last time.
So, yes, and that's the hardpart is, a lot of times people,
when they get so triggered andstuck in survival mode, their
(10:22):
rational thinking is outside thedoor because law, and they
don't even think of theconsequences of their choices
and actions.
And that's the hard thing is,yeah, they don't want to go to
jail, but they didn't want to bein this situation either.
And that's where I tell peopleto educate themselves about
(10:43):
reactive abuse.
A lot of people don't know whatis reactive abuse and it is
where someone pushes you andpushes you and pushes you to
where you snap and you dosomething that goes against your
normal rational thinking, logic.
(11:06):
You just you do somethingcompletely irrational and and.
But the hard part is then theperson that abused you and was
trauma triggering you gets thatreaction.
Now they play the victim andyou're the abuser and it's like
no for me.
I'm like, I'm sorry, it doesn'twork that way.
(11:27):
You're both at fault for whathappened.
But, seriously, to me that's ared flag that that person is a
danger.
You do not want to interactwith them, you don't want to
have anything to do with itBecause, like you said, three
years from now, mom's going tofind a way to trigger you again.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Yeah, or sooner.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
And yeah, and you're absolutely right, and you said
something that, as you weresaying it, I was thinking about.
You know, people used to ask ushow we did what we did.
You know, explain it to me.
And the best way I ever heardwas you talked about your
rational brain, your rationalthinking.
Think about when we were, wewere kids, you know.
We would go to the park and wewould play on the teeter totter
(12:15):
or the seesaw.
So when we started negotiatingwith somebody, usually their
emotional brain was way up inthe air.
Their rational brain was downin the ground.
They're yelling and screaming.
They may be pacing back andforth, hitting the wall, cussing
at you, whatever it is, andover time, by we used to ask how
(12:37):
and what questions.
We stayed away from.
Why questions?
Because why questions soundaccusatory.
I mean, if I said Well, carrie,why did you wear that today?
You might be like, oh wait,does this not like what I'm
wearing today?
It could be.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
I can get to the same information by saying Okay,
what made you decide to wear?
Speaker 2 (12:55):
that jacket today.
That's a little less intrusive,that's a little less accusatory
.
So we would ask how and whatquestions and over time, letting
them burn off a lot of thatemotional energy, we would get
that teeter-totter toequilibrium.
And then hopefully again morecurious questions how and what,
(13:16):
silence, things like that andwe'll talk.
I'm sure we'll talk about that.
You get to the point wheretheir rational brain is up in
the air and their emotionalbrain is down in the ground.
That's the time we starttalking about solutions.
When they're yelling andscreaming we're not telling them
to gun down.
Come out, let the hostage.
We're not talking about that atall.
We're just trying to get themto burn that off.
(13:37):
And now, when the rationalbrainwomen engage, that now it's
hey, what do you think aboutcoming out?
What do you think about puttingthe gun down?
I'll come down to the scene,We'll talk man to man, We'll
talk face to face, those kind ofthings of interaction,
connection with another humanbeing who they've been talking
to for hours.
That's why hostage negotiationtakes.
(13:59):
I mean sometimes it took six,seven, eight hours.
I mean you're exhausted at theend of it and all you did was
sit on your butt and talk tosomebody, you know.
But it's the emotion that youput into it, Because I'll say
this, to be good at it, you haveto get down in the mud, you
have to get in the weeds withthis person.
So if somebody says to us youknow they're yelling and
(14:22):
screaming, they're just lividwith their mother.
And you say somethingknucklehead-y, like you seem
like you're a little upset withyour mother.
You totally missed what theyjust said.
You got to be man.
You are pissed as hell at yourmother, aren't you?
Yeah, I am.
Oh, Terry gets me, heunderstands me.
(14:45):
Boom, that's what we're tryingto do.
So you got to get down in theweeds with these people, and
that's why hostage negotiationis so exhausting, and that's why
hostage negotiation is soexhausting.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Well, and sometimes you know you need to validate
how they're feeling.
Yeah, I'd get pissed off too ifsomeone you know did that to me
.
I understand, you know whyyou're angry.
You know it's true, becausewe've all been in situations
(15:20):
where someone is angry anddefensive and you can't
rationalize with them.
It's like they got this wall upand nothing will go through.
And not until they calm down Icall it baseline get to
neutrality, where they can justbreathe and then start to think.
That's where you can negotiatemore clearly, you can compromise
(15:43):
and you can figure things out.
And it's hard because thatperson that finds themselves in
that situation, because they gotso reactive and so triggered,
that's when they start to thinkabout.
And I'm just going to say thisoh shit, what have I done?
(16:04):
What situation have I foundmyself in?
And I'm just curious from youare a lot of people shocked when
they calm down and realize, ohmy God, I'm in this situation.
They didn't anticipate it, theydidn't expect it.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
No, no, they absolutely didn't.
And you've got to guide them toa way out.
You've got to guide them to asituation that's safe because
they all think they're going towalk outside and they're going
to get filled with.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
You know that they're going to get shot and stuff
like that.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
It's like no, relax, and again, that's the other
thing and and I think you knowthis from what you do the other
thing we were taught.
We were taught is how to useour voices oh yeah you know and
and and I am, I'm an emotionalguy.
I can get you know real excitedand have fun, and I'm.
But you've got to kind of sortof stay in the middle, you've
(17:04):
got to be, you've got to useyour voice like, well, you know,
you don't think that's possible, carrie, and then be quiet, and
silence is a huge part of whatwe did.
We would, we would, we woulduse kind of what was called it
was being curious.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
We were taught be curious oh yeah, why did you
know?
Speaker 2 (17:25):
don't ask the why question, but, kerry, what, what
makes you think we can't getthis resolved today and then go
silent?
Because we don't like silence.
As human beings, we want tofill that void.
And if you know that, you justbe quiet and eventually the
person will start talking,because they don't like silence.
And it may just be they'reburning off more energy, or they
(17:47):
may give you something aboutwhy this is going on, or what
their mother said to them to getthem to a point where they did
what they did.
Or you know, terry, I'm scared,and I might say something like
You're scared, and then gosilent again because I want what
(18:11):
?
What do you?
You didn't you scare?
What are you scared of?
You're coming out, you'rescared of your mother.
Mother, you're scared oftalking to me some more.
What are you scared of?
I don't.
I don't want to ask thatquestion.
I want you to tell me, and justby by giving that you're scared
, and going silent allows themnow to say, yeah, terry, I'm
(18:31):
scared, when I come out, I'mgoing to go to jail, you're
scared about jail.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
And then they'll talk again, so it's ending
everything.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
A lot of it is called mirroring or parroting.
You're just basically sayingback to them what they said to
you.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Right.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Those last two or three words, or that one word
that was really, reallyimportant, and just parroting it
back to them and going silent,because they will then start to
give you more information aboutwhat it is that you know.
They just I'm scared.
Well, what does that mean?
Like I said, who are you scaredof?
You're scared of me, you'rescared of the police, you're
scared of getting shot.
You're scared of coming out,scared of your mother.
What are you afraid of?
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Right.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
And now we can delve into that a little bit.
So that was a lot to digest.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
So no cause, then it made me think about, you know,
parenting, because a lot ofscenarios with with kids, if
you're a parent, that's alwaysberating your child and being,
you know, angry and disappointed.
You know the choices that yourkid makes when that child's in a
(19:40):
crisis situation.
They're not going to come toyou because they're going to
expect the same exact outcome,the same exact tone of voice,
attitude.
You know judgment, shame, guilt, all of that.
They're not going to talk toyou and that's to me, I think,
is very, very sad, because whenyour child needs you the most,
(20:04):
they don't trust you becausethey know you don't want to
understand and you're not goingto be able to relate.
So to me, you know, when itcomes to parenting, it is all
about listening and, like yousaid, let them share what's
going on, because we forget aswe get older.
(20:27):
We were teenagers, we didstupid stuff.
I mean, there's so many thingsand if you can talk to your kid
and have that connection, Ithink it's a beautiful thing.
Oh, it's huge.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
But I'll tell you right now I am totally guilty of
what you just said.
I mean, I knew all this stuff,I had training in all this stuff
and you would go home and youknow our three year old daughter
would take a cup of milk andjust look at you and just turn
it over and dump it all over thefloor.
And I would go nuts.
And it was like oh my gosh,terry, you know this stuff as a
(21:05):
negotiator and yet you're,you're totally just falling back
into how and how a parent wouldreact.
You know, it's like you stupid,why did you?
You know it's like oh, Terry,that was you handled that
terrible.
I did, you know.
I mean, I didn't do it all thetime and I learned from it and
things like that.
And you're right, as you getolder, as you're a teenager, you
(21:26):
can start using some of thisstuff.
I remember we were negotiatingwith a 15 year old kid one time
who had a gun, who wasbarricaded, and we were getting
nowhere with him on all thetechniques.
Well, it seems like so-and-sois important to you, or you know
(21:46):
, oh really, and kind of endingon the curious voice, getting
nothing.
So we're like you know what,we're going to take a break,
we'll call you back nothing.
So we're like you know whatwe're going to take a break,
we'll call you back.
So we got together and we'relike nothing's working.
What's the deal?
And one of the older guys whohad grown kids is like wait a
minute, he's 15 years old, he'sa kid, he's a child, let's scare
(22:09):
him.
And so we had the tactical team.
There were things calledflashbangs that you can break a
window, you can drop them in,and sometimes they're called
flashbang grenades.
They don't blow up, they don'tsend shrapnel anywhere, but all
they do is, when they go off,they produce a really bright
light and a really loud bang,loud bang.
(22:30):
And we're like yeah, let's try.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
I was trying everything else, nothing else
was working.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
So you know, we had the tactical team break a window
and drop one of those in and in10 minutes he was out because
we scared him enough that it'slike, okay, oh, I don't want any
, I don't want any part of this.
I mean, they're coming after menow, I want to come out.
So I mean, sometimes you gottabe unconventional, but as, as
teenagers, things like, well,what's upsetting you right now?
And then go silent and let themtalk.
(22:57):
That's where you you know whatyou were just talking about,
that's where you develop thetrust.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Oh, dad asked me a question and I can talk and he's
interested in hearing myopinion.
And a lot of times with mykiddo, I'll say what do you need
from me?
Speaker 2 (23:12):
That's great yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Yeah.
What do you need from me?
That's great, yeah, yeah.
What do you need from me?
Even though I don't understandwhat's going on and stuff,
you're in crisis mode.
What do you need from me?
How can I, how can I supportyou in this situation?
I might not be able tocomprehend or relate or even
understand, but I see you'redistressed and you need me.
What do you need from me?
Speaker 2 (23:41):
And that's great, and you make a great point with
that, because you and I bothknow that, at the end of the day
, we're not in control of this.
I mean what this person does,how they act.
You know, I'm not going to giveyou the answer.
I'm going to try to lead youdown the path where you come up
with the answer, because I, youknow, I'll tell you, 90% of the
time we were effective gettingpeople out, but 10% of the time,
(24:04):
especially if the person waswanted for, you know, a heinous
crime, you know a murder, akidnap or a rape or something
they knew they were going toprison for the rest of their
life yeah, they came out.
So it's like no, I'm going toput a bullet in my head.
I don't mean to sound crassabout it, but they would.
They would.
They're like, no, I'm notcoming out.
You know, bang.
And you'd hear the shot, andand, and I'm going to sound like
(24:26):
a real jerk when I say this.
But I never lost any sleep overthat and I say that because I
knew I had done everything Icould to get that person out
safely.
I knew I had great training andI knew I worked with great
people.
But at the end of the day youand I know this it's really
their decision.
(24:47):
Yeah, do they want to take ouradvice?
Do they want the help or dothey like?
You know what the heck with youpeople?
I'm going to go do it, okay,fine, I can't make you do
anything.
We can't make another humanbeing do something.
They've got to decide they wantto do it.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
We can try to lead them down the yellow brick road,
I know, and it's hard, becausesometimes we do have to step
back and realize that they're incontrol of all their choices
and all their decisions.
And sometimes what's?
The odds that are stackedagainst them, like you said,
(25:24):
aren't great and the alternativeis well, I know it sounds
morbid to say this I could justend it all now, instead of
spending 30 years, the rest ofmy life, you know being a
manslave to Bubba.
Who's in prison?
Who wants that?
Nobody wants that.
(25:44):
And so they're weighing theirodds for the choices they made
and the situation that you knowthey're in.
And yeah, I mean it's a toughplace, it's really a tough place
that sometimes people you knowfind them in, and even right
(26:08):
there, I mean, I hate to say it,but pulling the trigger takes
courage, because you're makingthat choice to just end
everything.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah, yeah.
But again you're trying.
You know, through this you'retrying what's important to them,
right?
You know it seems like whatever.
Maybe they got a kid.
It seems like your daughter isreally important to you, is
really valuable to you, issomebody you want to.
Whatever it is, you try to getthem to see a future as opposed
(26:39):
to there's no way out of this.
I'll get you out of this.
I'll help you.
We'll do this together.
You're not by yourself.
And let me let me say one morething, and I think this is
important and this has come upon other podcasts that I've done
If we thought somebody wasconsidering suicide, someone was
considering ending their life,we would call it out.
(27:02):
You know it would be like, hey,carrie, are you thinking of
hurting yourself?
Now?
Speaker 1 (27:07):
if you're not, you're going would be like hey, carrie
, are you thinking of hurtingyourself?
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Yeah, now, if you're not, you're going to be like oh
Terry, you're an idiot.
I can't believe you even saidsomething like that.
Yeah, but if you are, you mayhave just opened the door that
said, oh my God, he sees me, hesees that I'm in trouble.
You know, somebody sees me as aperson, and I've heard so many
people have said, well, theywere doing all the things that
you would suspect that man,maybe this person's thinking of
(27:32):
killing themselves, they'regiving their stuff away, they're
talking about funerals, they'retalking about death, they're
talking about ending their lifeand they're like well, we didn't
want to say anything, becausewe were afraid we were going to
put that idea right so for thoseof us listening to us and you
and I both know this you're notgoing to put the idea into their
mind, but if you think it mighthappen, say something to them.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Yeah, just say are you think of hurting yourself
are you gonna?
Speaker 2 (27:59):
are you gonna go home tonight and kill yourself?
Because if they're not, they'regonna tell you you know
something, probably pretty nasty, like no, you idiot, I'm not
that.
But if they are, you just openthe door like, oh my God,
another human being sees me andyou may have just presented,
prevented them from going homeand taking their own life.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Well, and I always look at what leverage do I have?
Like you said, your daughter'svaluable to you, or this is
important to you.
You try to, you know, find.
I always like to try to findthe leverage because that helps
me, help them, because a lot oftimes, as you know, when they're
stuck in that irrational partof their brain, that leverage is
(28:41):
their solution.
Yeah, and they can't see itbecause they're not thinking
about their daughter or how it'sgoing to impact.
You know other family membersor this and that, and sometimes
I say, well, if you can't do putthat impact, you know what
would your daughter feel?
Speaker 2 (29:09):
I mean, if she's going to grow up without her dad
, how would she feel knowingthat you, just you, chose to end
your life over spending a lifewith her?
How would that make you feel?
And then be quiet?
Yeah, you know, and, and, andit may, there may be, you know,
30 seconds of silence whilethey're thinking about it.
(29:30):
What, oh what does that mean?
I don't know well yeah, it wouldbe hard, for it would be hard
for them.
Yeah, it would be hard becauseshe, I wouldn't be there for all
her special events.
Yeah, her special events, youknow it, it's.
It's just that little how you,you know, you take those one or
two or three words and you justturn it back on them and it gets
(29:51):
them to think, and it gets themto talk, you know, and
eventually get them to where youneed them to be.
It works for a lot of peopleNow.
It may not work for somebodythat's high on drugs, it may not
work for somebody who'sintoxicated and things like that
.
I'll give you a quick, funnystory.
We had a barricaded person witha hostage and I was working
(30:13):
that night and I got to thescene.
I was in a marked car.
I was talking to the uniformguy.
I was like what's the deal?
He's drunk, he's barricadedhimself in the house with his
wife as a hostage and he's got agun he's threatening to shoot.
I said, ok, have him on thephone.
He said yep.
So I started to talk to him and, as I said, you don't talk at
the beginning about solutions.
That's usually hours down theroad.
(30:35):
But I just had a gut feel aboutthis guy.
So I said to him what would ittake for you to let your wife go
and come out?
And there was this long pause.
And then he said to me give mea beer.
And I was like I said to him ifI gave you a beer, do I have
(30:55):
your word?
And this is where you'redeveloping trust, you're
developing those relationships.
Do I trust you?
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Do I have your?
Speaker 2 (31:03):
word that you would let your wife go and you would
come out.
He said do I have your word Icould drink the?
Your wife go and you would comeout?
He said do I have your word Icould drink the beer?
I said you answer my questionfirst.
He said, yeah, I'll let her goand I'll come out.
I said then you can drink thebeer.
So I gave $5 to one of theofficers and told him to go down
to the store buy a beer.
The tactical team put it on thefront porch.
I called him back and I saidhey, your beer's on the front
(31:24):
porch, but you don't get ituntil your wife comes out.
And you come out without thegun in your hands up.
And he hit me again with do Ihave your word that I can drink
it?
I said you absolutely have myword, you can drink it.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
All of a sudden, here comes the front door comes open
, here comes his wife with herhands up and here he comes with
his hands up.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
We let him drink his beer Because, again, we're not
going to lie to you If I toldyou you could drink it.
You're going to drink it andoff the GLE went.
So it was not a typicalnegotiation.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
Right, yeah, well, look at it as some people's
priorities are different.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Totally yeah, guy wanted a beer, like you were
already drunk.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
So I mean, what's one more beer gonna do to you?
You know, yeah, yeah, no, Ihear you, so I know you do.
You do other things.
I know you're an author.
You are a founder of amotivational um check LLC.
You've done so many things.
Where can people find you,terry?
Speaker 2 (32:27):
yeah, the easiest place to find me is at my
website, which is also my blogcalled Motivational Check, so
it's motivationalcheckcom, andjust leave me a message there
and I'll get back with you.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Awesome, awesome.
I'm so thrilled that we hadthis conversation.
I thought it was just great and, to let everyone know, I'll
create a blog post with yourlinks and any social media stuff
on there and I just I'm yeah,I'm really thrilled we had this
talk because I think thisinformation is just it's
(32:57):
valuable for people to you know,to grasp this concept and
really get it.
So thank you, terry.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
You're quite welcome, carrie.
Thank you for having me on.
I think this is goodinformation.
I mean, the world today.
We're just yelling at eachother, we're screaming at each
other and when you're yelling atme and I'm yelling at you,
nobody hears anything.
So use some of these techniqueswhen you're interacting with
other people.
Don't get all emotional If youcan stay in control and let the
other party get emotional.
(33:27):
All emotional If you can stayin control and let the other
party get emotional.
You have the control in thesituation.
By you going off ranting andraving, you've lost control of
that.
Ask these how and whatquestions.
Use empathy, find out what'sgoing on, find out what's
important with the person, andeven in business.
This stuff works.
It works in sales, it workswhen you're negotiating
contracts.
So use some of the stuff thatwe gave you today and hopefully
(33:48):
you'll be more successful andmore happy.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
I fully agree, cause in the end, that's what people
want anyway is to be successfuland happy.
Exactly, it's a win-win, okay.
Well, you have a fantastic restof your day, Terry, and thank
you so much for being here.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Thank you, kira, you take care.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Take care All right, bye.
Hello everyone.
This is your host, Keri Logan,at Master the Upper Rooms, and
today I got a really cool personI'm going to be chatting with
and his name is Terry Tucker.
And what I love the most aboutTerry is he has so much life
experience.
He focuses on self-improvement,life coaching, alternative
(00:24):
health, life experiences,parenting, education.
But the most cool thing aboutTerry is he at one time was a
SWAT hostage negotiator and thatreally stood out for me because
we all know when someone is inthat situation, they are at the
(00:46):
very pit pit bottom of what Iwould call 3D human
consciousness.
They're stuck in shame, regret,humiliation, guilt, and Terry's
the kind of guy to walk on in,try to connect with that person
and move them up to the courageto do something different.
(01:08):
And I would love Terry's insightand wisdom today to share with
all of you the steps that hetakes to achieve that success
and helping people.
Because, as we were chattingearlier before, as we were
chatting earlier before, hepointed out that well, even once
you get that person, let's say,to calm down and all of that,
(01:31):
you still have the neighbors,you got family, you got friends
and there's different ways wecommunicate with people to kind
of prepare them for that.
So today we have a lot to talkabout.
I'm super excited.
So, Terry, welcome to Masterthe Upper Rooms.
How are you today?
Speaker 2 (01:51):
I am great, keri, thanks for having me on.
I'm really looking forward totalking with you today.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Yes, same here.
So let's unpack this Like ifyou could recall a scenario, one
that was, If you could recall ascenario one that was maybe
challenging, and what did you do?
What are the steps that youtake?
And we talked briefly, but Iwant everyone who's listening to
really, really dive in and getthis.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Well, I guess let me start with what I was given when
I started out as a negotiatorand I was given this formula,
and I'll give you the formulaand tell you about it.
But then I'll tell you what Iwas given when I started out as
a negotiator and I was giventhis formula, and I'll give you
the formula and tell you aboutit.
But then I'll tell you why Iwas given it.
I was given the formula.
All of us were as negotiators.
The formula was 738.55.
And it had to do with how we ashuman beings communicate with
(02:40):
each other.
Had nothing to do with policeor SWAT or anything like that,
just how people communicate.
So 7% of how we communicate amessage are the words that we
use.
And think how many times inyour life you've been like, oh,
I wish I hadn't said that or oh,I wish I would have said that
differently.
That's only 7% of how thatmessage comes across to that
(03:00):
person.
38% is the tone of voice thatyou use.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Are you really excited and can't wait to?
Speaker 2 (03:06):
talk late or are you kind of down and depressed and
slow?
So what kind of voice are youusing?
And then 55% of how thatmessage comes across is our body
language and our facialexpressions.
And so we were given thatformula because, as hostage
negotiators, if somebody wasbarricaded in a room with a gun,
(03:28):
or had hostages or was justbarricaded themselves with a gun
, we were not in the room withthat person.
It just wasn't.
That wasn't, wouldn't be safeto do that.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Many times we're outside the door.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Sometimes we were blocks away talking to that
person on the phone, and so wedidn't have the luxury of saying
something to the person and seethem kind of roll their eyes
like, oh what an idiot, I can'tbelieve.
Terry said that to me.
So we had to get good,certainly figuring things out
based on what people were saying, but also what they weren't
(04:03):
saying and how they were sayingit.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
So that's why they gave us that formula.
Now that helps.
I agree, because I've alwayssaid, it's not sometimes what
you say, but how you say it.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah, it really is.
And you know and again I meanyou kind of mentioned it when we
would arrive on scene, A lot oftimes it was like I have no
idea why we're here.
I have no idea whatprecipitated this.
I mean, why is this persondoing what they're doing?
And there was a I guess I gotto sort of dispel this rumor.
(04:42):
So back in the late 1970s or1990s there was a movie called
the Negotiator and Samuel LJackson played this like almost
Superman kind of guy that dideverything.
And I always get the questionis that the way it happens?
No, it's absolutely not the wayit happened.
So you may be the primary, soyou're on the headset talking to
(05:04):
the person no-transcript, hugefight with his mother.
(05:31):
He grabbed the gun, he went inhis bedroom, slammed the door,
barricaded himself, and that'swhat's going on.
Oh, okay, that helps, Becausesometimes you know you're, you
want to appeal to people's.
Oh, you know you love yourparents, you love your children,
you love us, but whatever, itis like well, we're not talking
about his mother atall you know during this
scenario, because of whatprecipitated it tactical empathy
(06:06):
.
I think you can get rid of theword tactical and just talk
about empathy.
So we wouldn't start out bysaying, you know, hey, carrie,
I'm Sergeant Tucker.
It would be, hey, carrie, I'mTerry or hi, I'm Terry.
What's your name?
And a lot of times you get it'snone of your business, you
don't need to know my name.
Okay, what would you like me tocall you?
And so you know, maybe they'dgive you a nickname.
(06:26):
You know, cj or something likethat.
So so you're going back andforth like that.
So then it's CJ.
Help me to understand what'sgoing on today.
You know what?
What's upsetting you?
Where are we right now?
And the important word there isunderstand.
It's not agree.
If I was negotiating withsomebody that was a three-time
(06:49):
homicide suspect, I wasn't goingto say, oh, absolutely, you
should have killed all three ofthose people.
It was understand, becauseunderstanding leads to trust.
And trust gets to a point whereI'm trying to, where I can get
this person out safely, andtrust gets to a point where I'm
trying to, where I can get thisperson out safely.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Yes, because on the chart of human consciousness it
vibrates at the level of 400.
And right above that isactually love, and below the
understanding is acceptance,it's forgiveness, it's
willingness.
Yes, there is trust, there'scourage, there's all of that,
(07:29):
and the hard part is a lot oftimes when people are in that
situation, they're hoping thatyou're willing to work with them
and they're hoping that you'rewilling to see their side of the
story, of their scenario.
And so having thatunderstanding brings about
(07:50):
clarity, because it's not allabout oh, I'm going to judge you
or, and I'm going to condemnyou or, you know, shame you or
ridicule you.
I want to know, you know whathappened.
Help me, help me, like you said, help me understand so I can
better support you as a person.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Yeah, 100%.
And that was.
That was the whole thing.
I mean, if you think about whatwe did as negotiators, it's the
same thing.
So we're trying to build arelationship and what is any
successful relationship built on?
It's built on trust.
You know parent, child, youknow husband, wife, boss,
(08:28):
subordinate.
If you don't trust the otherperson, it's not going to be a
good relationship.
So we were trying to buildtrust by understanding what the
person said to us.
And I may be getting ahead ofmyself, but let me say this
there were times where peoplewould say to us hey, I'll come
(08:49):
out, but you got to promise meI'm not going to go to jail.
And we would have to say really, do you want me to lie to you
right now?
I mean, I've been honest withyou through this entire thing.
Do you want me to lie to younow?
Because I'm not going to lie toyou and I'm going to tell you
that when you do come out, youare going to have to go to jail.
(09:10):
But then we would try todeflect the conversation to
something, you know, somethingbetter, something more palatable
that they could handle.
And we never lied for a lot ofreasons, but one of the big
reasons we never lied and thishappened several times during
the time I was a negotiator isthat maybe a year from now, two
years from now, three years fromnow, we would be right back
(09:31):
negotiating with this person,because as I said, maybe they
had a big fight with theirmother.
Well, mom's still alive andmom's still pushing their
buttons.
And three years from now, momand him have a big blow up and
he grabs a gun, he barricadeshimself again and now we're
right back in it.
But if he ever felt hey, Terry,you lied to me the last time we
(09:52):
did this, my credibility is outthe door.
You're going to have to bringin another negotiator to start
at ground zero and try to buildthat trust again.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
And that would be really, really hard, because you
learned to, you got deceivedthe last time.
So, yes, and that's the hardpart is, a lot of times people,
when they get so triggered andstuck in survival mode, their
(10:22):
rational thinking is outside thedoor because law, and they
don't even think of theconsequences of their choices
and actions.
And that's the hard thing is,yeah, they don't want to go to
jail, but they didn't want to bein this situation either.
And that's where I tell peopleto educate themselves about
(10:43):
reactive abuse.
A lot of people don't know whatis reactive abuse and it is
where someone pushes you andpushes you and pushes you to
where you snap and you dosomething that goes against your
normal rational thinking, logic.
(11:06):
You just you do somethingcompletely irrational and and.
But the hard part is then theperson that abused you and was
trauma triggering you gets thatreaction.
Now they play the victim andyou're the abuser and it's like
no for me.
I'm like, I'm sorry, it doesn'twork that way.
(11:27):
You're both at fault for whathappened.
But, seriously, to me that's ared flag that that person is a
danger.
You do not want to interactwith them, you don't want to
have anything to do with itBecause, like you said, three
years from now, mom's going tofind a way to trigger you again.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Yeah, or sooner.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
And yeah, and you're absolutely right, and you said
something that, as you weresaying it, I was thinking about.
You know, people used to ask ushow we did what we did.
You know, explain it to me.
And the best way I ever heardwas you talked about your
rational brain, your rationalthinking.
Think about when we were, wewere kids, you know.
We would go to the park and wewould play on the teeter totter
(12:15):
or the seesaw.
So when we started negotiatingwith somebody, usually their
emotional brain was way up inthe air.
Their rational brain was downin the ground.
They're yelling and screaming.
They may be pacing back andforth, hitting the wall, cussing
at you, whatever it is, andover time, by we used to ask how
(12:37):
and what questions.
We stayed away from.
Why questions?
Because why questions soundaccusatory.
I mean, if I said Well, carrie,why did you wear that today?
You might be like, oh wait,does this not like what I'm
wearing today?
It could be.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
I can get to the same information by saying Okay,
what made you decide to wear?
Speaker 2 (12:55):
that jacket today.
That's a little less intrusive,that's a little less accusatory
.
So we would ask how and whatquestions and over time, letting
them burn off a lot of thatemotional energy, we would get
that teeter-totter toequilibrium.
And then hopefully again morecurious questions how and what,
(13:16):
silence, things like that andwe'll talk.
I'm sure we'll talk about that.
You get to the point wheretheir rational brain is up in
the air and their emotionalbrain is down in the ground.
That's the time we starttalking about solutions.
When they're yelling andscreaming we're not telling them
to gun down.
Come out, let the hostage.
We're not talking about that atall.
We're just trying to get themto burn that off.
(13:37):
And now, when the rationalbrainwomen engage, that now it's
hey, what do you think aboutcoming out?
What do you think about puttingthe gun down?
I'll come down to the scene,We'll talk man to man, We'll
talk face to face, those kind ofthings of interaction,
connection with another humanbeing who they've been talking
to for hours.
That's why hostage negotiationtakes.
(13:59):
I mean sometimes it took six,seven, eight hours.
I mean you're exhausted at theend of it and all you did was
sit on your butt and talk tosomebody, you know.
But it's the emotion that youput into it, Because I'll say
this, to be good at it, you haveto get down in the mud, you
have to get in the weeds withthis person.
So if somebody says to us youknow they're yelling and
(14:22):
screaming, they're just lividwith their mother.
And you say somethingknucklehead-y, like you seem
like you're a little upset withyour mother.
You totally missed what theyjust said.
You got to be man.
You are pissed as hell at yourmother, aren't you?
Yeah, I am.
Oh, Terry gets me, heunderstands me.
(14:45):
Boom, that's what we're tryingto do.
So you got to get down in theweeds with these people, and
that's why hostage negotiationis so exhausting, and that's why
hostage negotiation is soexhausting.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Well, and sometimes you know you need to validate
how they're feeling.
Yeah, I'd get pissed off too ifsomeone you know did that to me
.
I understand, you know whyyou're angry.
You know it's true, becausewe've all been in situations
(15:20):
where someone is angry anddefensive and you can't
rationalize with them.
It's like they got this wall upand nothing will go through.
And not until they calm down Icall it baseline get to
neutrality, where they can justbreathe and then start to think.
That's where you can negotiatemore clearly, you can compromise
(15:43):
and you can figure things out.
And it's hard because thatperson that finds themselves in
that situation, because they gotso reactive and so triggered,
that's when they start to thinkabout.
And I'm just going to say thisoh shit, what have I done?
(16:04):
What situation have I foundmyself in?
And I'm just curious from youare a lot of people shocked when
they calm down and realize, ohmy God, I'm in this situation.
They didn't anticipate it, theydidn't expect it.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
No, no, they absolutely didn't.
And you've got to guide them toa way out.
You've got to guide them to asituation that's safe because
they all think they're going towalk outside and they're going
to get filled with.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
You know that they're going to get shot and stuff
like that.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
It's like no, relax, and again, that's the other
thing and and I think you knowthis from what you do the other
thing we were taught.
We were taught is how to useour voices oh yeah you know and
and and I am, I'm an emotionalguy.
I can get you know real excitedand have fun, and I'm.
But you've got to kind of sortof stay in the middle, you've
(17:04):
got to be, you've got to useyour voice like, well, you know,
you don't think that's possible, carrie, and then be quiet, and
silence is a huge part of whatwe did.
We would, we would, we woulduse kind of what was called it
was being curious.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
We were taught be curious oh yeah, why did you
know?
Speaker 2 (17:25):
don't ask the why question, but, kerry, what, what
makes you think we can't getthis resolved today and then go
silent?
Because we don't like silence.
As human beings, we want tofill that void.
And if you know that, you justbe quiet and eventually the
person will start talking,because they don't like silence.
And it may just be they'reburning off more energy, or they
(17:47):
may give you something aboutwhy this is going on, or what
their mother said to them to getthem to a point where they did
what they did.
Or you know, terry, I'm scared,and I might say something like
You're scared, and then gosilent again because I want what
(18:11):
?
What do you?
You didn't you scare?
What are you scared of?
You're coming out, you'rescared of your mother.
Mother, you're scared oftalking to me some more.
What are you scared of?
I don't.
I don't want to ask thatquestion.
I want you to tell me, and justby by giving that you're scared
, and going silent allows themnow to say, yeah, terry, I'm
(18:31):
scared, when I come out, I'mgoing to go to jail, you're
scared about jail.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
And then they'll talk again, so it's ending
everything.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
A lot of it is called mirroring or parroting.
You're just basically sayingback to them what they said to
you.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Right.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Those last two or three words, or that one word
that was really, reallyimportant, and just parroting it
back to them and going silent,because they will then start to
give you more information aboutwhat it is that you know.
They just I'm scared.
Well, what does that mean?
Like I said, who are you scaredof?
You're scared of me, you'rescared of the police, you're
scared of getting shot.
You're scared of coming out,scared of your mother.
What are you afraid of?
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Right.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
And now we can delve into that a little bit.
So that was a lot to digest.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
So no cause, then it made me think about, you know,
parenting, because a lot ofscenarios with with kids, if
you're a parent, that's alwaysberating your child and being,
you know, angry and disappointed.
You know the choices that yourkid makes when that child's in a
(19:40):
crisis situation.
They're not going to come toyou because they're going to
expect the same exact outcome,the same exact tone of voice,
attitude.
You know judgment, shame, guilt, all of that.
They're not going to talk toyou and that's to me, I think,
is very, very sad, because whenyour child needs you the most,
(20:04):
they don't trust you becausethey know you don't want to
understand and you're not goingto be able to relate.
So to me, you know, when itcomes to parenting, it is all
about listening and, like yousaid, let them share what's
going on, because we forget aswe get older.
(20:27):
We were teenagers, we didstupid stuff.
I mean, there's so many thingsand if you can talk to your kid
and have that connection, Ithink it's a beautiful thing.
Oh, it's huge.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
But I'll tell you right now I am totally guilty of
what you just said.
I mean, I knew all this stuff,I had training in all this stuff
and you would go home and youknow our three year old daughter
would take a cup of milk andjust look at you and just turn
it over and dump it all over thefloor.
And I would go nuts.
And it was like oh my gosh,terry, you know this stuff as a
(21:05):
negotiator and yet you're,you're totally just falling back
into how and how a parent wouldreact.
You know, it's like you stupid,why did you?
You know it's like oh, Terry,that was you handled that
terrible.
I did, you know.
I mean, I didn't do it all thetime and I learned from it and
things like that.
And you're right, as you getolder, as you're a teenager, you
(21:26):
can start using some of thisstuff.
I remember we were negotiatingwith a 15 year old kid one time
who had a gun, who wasbarricaded, and we were getting
nowhere with him on all thetechniques.
Well, it seems like so-and-sois important to you, or you know
(21:46):
, oh really, and kind of endingon the curious voice, getting
nothing.
So we're like you know what,we're going to take a break,
we'll call you back nothing.
So we're like you know whatwe're going to take a break,
we'll call you back.
So we got together and we'relike nothing's working.
What's the deal?
And one of the older guys whohad grown kids is like wait a
minute, he's 15 years old, he'sa kid, he's a child, let's scare
(22:09):
him.
And so we had the tactical team.
There were things calledflashbangs that you can break a
window, you can drop them in,and sometimes they're called
flashbang grenades.
They don't blow up, they don'tsend shrapnel anywhere, but all
they do is, when they go off,they produce a really bright
light and a really loud bang,loud bang.
(22:30):
And we're like yeah, let's try.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
I was trying everything else, nothing else
was working.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
So you know, we had the tactical team break a window
and drop one of those in and in10 minutes he was out because
we scared him enough that it'slike, okay, oh, I don't want any
, I don't want any part of this.
I mean, they're coming after menow, I want to come out.
So I mean, sometimes you gottabe unconventional, but as, as
teenagers, things like, well,what's upsetting you right now?
And then go silent and let themtalk.
(22:57):
That's where you you know whatyou were just talking about,
that's where you develop thetrust.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Oh, dad asked me a question and I can talk and he's
interested in hearing myopinion.
And a lot of times with mykiddo, I'll say what do you need
from me?
Speaker 2 (23:12):
That's great yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Yeah.
What do you need from me?
That's great, yeah, yeah.
What do you need from me?
Even though I don't understandwhat's going on and stuff,
you're in crisis mode.
What do you need from me?
How can I, how can I supportyou in this situation?
I might not be able tocomprehend or relate or even
understand, but I see you'redistressed and you need me.
What do you need from me?
Speaker 2 (23:41):
And that's great, and you make a great point with
that, because you and I bothknow that, at the end of the day
, we're not in control of this.
I mean what this person does,how they act.
You know, I'm not going to giveyou the answer.
I'm going to try to lead youdown the path where you come up
with the answer, because I, youknow, I'll tell you, 90% of the
time we were effective gettingpeople out, but 10% of the time,
(24:04):
especially if the person waswanted for, you know, a heinous
crime, you know a murder, akidnap or a rape or something
they knew they were going toprison for the rest of their
life yeah, they came out.
So it's like no, I'm going toput a bullet in my head.
I don't mean to sound crassabout it, but they would.
They would.
They're like, no, I'm notcoming out.
You know, bang.
And you'd hear the shot, andand, and I'm going to sound like
(24:26):
a real jerk when I say this.
But I never lost any sleep overthat and I say that because I
knew I had done everything Icould to get that person out
safely.
I knew I had great training andI knew I worked with great
people.
But at the end of the day youand I know this it's really
their decision.
(24:47):
Yeah, do they want to take ouradvice?
Do they want the help or dothey like?
You know what the heck with youpeople?
I'm going to go do it, okay,fine, I can't make you do
anything.
We can't make another humanbeing do something.
They've got to decide they wantto do it.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
We can try to lead them down the yellow brick road,
I know, and it's hard, becausesometimes we do have to step
back and realize that they're incontrol of all their choices
and all their decisions.
And sometimes what's?
The odds that are stackedagainst them, like you said,
(25:24):
aren't great and the alternativeis well, I know it sounds
morbid to say this I could justend it all now, instead of
spending 30 years, the rest ofmy life, you know being a
manslave to Bubba.
Who's in prison?
Who wants that?
Nobody wants that.
(25:44):
And so they're weighing theirodds for the choices they made
and the situation that you knowthey're in.
And yeah, I mean it's a toughplace, it's really a tough place
that sometimes people you knowfind them in, and even right
(26:08):
there, I mean, I hate to say it,but pulling the trigger takes
courage, because you're makingthat choice to just end
everything.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah, yeah.
But again you're trying.
You know, through this you'retrying what's important to them,
right?
You know it seems like whatever.
Maybe they got a kid.
It seems like your daughter isreally important to you, is
really valuable to you, issomebody you want to.
Whatever it is, you try to getthem to see a future as opposed
(26:39):
to there's no way out of this.
I'll get you out of this.
I'll help you.
We'll do this together.
You're not by yourself.
And let me let me say one morething, and I think this is
important and this has come upon other podcasts that I've done
If we thought somebody wasconsidering suicide, someone was
considering ending their life,we would call it out.
(27:02):
You know it would be like, hey,carrie, are you thinking of
hurting yourself?
Now?
Speaker 1 (27:07):
if you're not, you're going would be like hey, carrie
, are you thinking of hurtingyourself?
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Yeah, now, if you're not, you're going to be like oh
Terry, you're an idiot.
I can't believe you even saidsomething like that.
Yeah, but if you are, you mayhave just opened the door that
said, oh my God, he sees me, hesees that I'm in trouble.
You know, somebody sees me as aperson, and I've heard so many
people have said, well, theywere doing all the things that
you would suspect that man,maybe this person's thinking of
(27:32):
killing themselves, they'regiving their stuff away, they're
talking about funerals, they'retalking about death, they're
talking about ending their lifeand they're like well, we didn't
want to say anything, becausewe were afraid we were going to
put that idea right so for thoseof us listening to us and you
and I both know this you're notgoing to put the idea into their
mind, but if you think it mighthappen, say something to them.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Yeah, just say are you think of hurting yourself
are you gonna?
Speaker 2 (27:59):
are you gonna go home tonight and kill yourself?
Because if they're not, they'regonna tell you you know
something, probably pretty nasty, like no, you idiot, I'm not
that.
But if they are, you just openthe door like, oh my God,
another human being sees me andyou may have just presented,
prevented them from going homeand taking their own life.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Well, and I always look at what leverage do I have?
Like you said, your daughter'svaluable to you, or this is
important to you.
You try to, you know, find.
I always like to try to findthe leverage because that helps
me, help them, because a lot oftimes, as you know, when they're
stuck in that irrational partof their brain, that leverage is
(28:41):
their solution.
Yeah, and they can't see itbecause they're not thinking
about their daughter or how it'sgoing to impact.
You know other family membersor this and that, and sometimes
I say, well, if you can't do putthat impact, you know what
would your daughter feel?
Speaker 2 (29:09):
I mean, if she's going to grow up without her dad
, how would she feel knowingthat you, just you, chose to end
your life over spending a lifewith her?
How would that make you feel?
And then be quiet?
Yeah, you know, and, and, andit may, there may be, you know,
30 seconds of silence whilethey're thinking about it.
(29:30):
What, oh what does that mean?
I don't know well yeah, it wouldbe hard, for it would be hard
for them.
Yeah, it would be hard becauseshe, I wouldn't be there for all
her special events.
Yeah, her special events, youknow it, it's.
It's just that little how you,you know, you take those one or
two or three words and you justturn it back on them and it gets
(29:51):
them to think, and it gets themto talk, you know, and
eventually get them to where youneed them to be.
It works for a lot of peopleNow.
It may not work for somebodythat's high on drugs, it may not
work for somebody who'sintoxicated and things like that
.
I'll give you a quick, funnystory.
We had a barricaded person witha hostage and I was working
(30:13):
that night and I got to thescene.
I was in a marked car.
I was talking to the uniformguy.
I was like what's the deal?
He's drunk, he's barricadedhimself in the house with his
wife as a hostage and he's got agun he's threatening to shoot.
I said, ok, have him on thephone.
He said yep.
So I started to talk to him and, as I said, you don't talk at
the beginning about solutions.
That's usually hours down theroad.
(30:35):
But I just had a gut feel aboutthis guy.
So I said to him what would ittake for you to let your wife go
and come out?
And there was this long pause.
And then he said to me give mea beer.
And I was like I said to him ifI gave you a beer, do I have
(30:55):
your word?
And this is where you'redeveloping trust, you're
developing those relationships.
Do I trust you?
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Do I have your?
Speaker 2 (31:03):
word that you would let your wife go and you would
come out.
He said do I have your word Icould drink the?
Your wife go and you would comeout?
He said do I have your word Icould drink the beer?
I said you answer my questionfirst.
He said, yeah, I'll let her goand I'll come out.
I said then you can drink thebeer.
So I gave $5 to one of theofficers and told him to go down
to the store buy a beer.
The tactical team put it on thefront porch.
I called him back and I saidhey, your beer's on the front
(31:24):
porch, but you don't get ituntil your wife comes out.
And you come out without thegun in your hands up.
And he hit me again with do Ihave your word that I can drink
it?
I said you absolutely have myword, you can drink it.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
All of a sudden, here comes the front door comes open
, here comes his wife with herhands up and here he comes with
his hands up.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
We let him drink his beer Because, again, we're not
going to lie to you If I toldyou you could drink it.
You're going to drink it andoff the GLE went.
So it was not a typicalnegotiation.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
Right, yeah, well, look at it as some people's
priorities are different.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Totally yeah, guy wanted a beer, like you were
already drunk.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
So I mean, what's one more beer gonna do to you?
You know, yeah, yeah, no, Ihear you, so I know you do.
You do other things.
I know you're an author.
You are a founder of amotivational um check LLC.
You've done so many things.
Where can people find you,terry?
Speaker 2 (32:27):
yeah, the easiest place to find me is at my
website, which is also my blogcalled Motivational Check, so
it's motivationalcheckcom, andjust leave me a message there
and I'll get back with you.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Awesome, awesome.
I'm so thrilled that we hadthis conversation.
I thought it was just great and, to let everyone know, I'll
create a blog post with yourlinks and any social media stuff
on there and I just I'm yeah,I'm really thrilled we had this
talk because I think thisinformation is just it's
(32:57):
valuable for people to you know,to grasp this concept and
really get it.
So thank you, terry.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
You're quite welcome, carrie.
Thank you for having me on.
I think this is goodinformation.
I mean, the world today.
We're just yelling at eachother, we're screaming at each
other and when you're yelling atme and I'm yelling at you,
nobody hears anything.
So use some of these techniqueswhen you're interacting with
other people.
Don't get all emotional If youcan stay in control and let the
other party get emotional.
(33:27):
All emotional If you can stayin control and let the other
party get emotional.
You have the control in thesituation.
By you going off ranting andraving, you've lost control of
that.
Ask these how and whatquestions.
Use empathy, find out what'sgoing on, find out what's
important with the person, andeven in business.
This stuff works.
It works in sales, it workswhen you're negotiating
contracts.
So use some of the stuff thatwe gave you today and hopefully
(33:48):
you'll be more successful andmore happy.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
I fully agree, cause in the end, that's what people
want anyway is to be successfuland happy.
Exactly, it's a win-win, okay.
Well, you have a fantastic restof your day, Terry, and thank
you so much for being here.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Thank you, kira, you take care.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Take care All right, bye.
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