October 3, 2023 • 29 mins
What happens when a teacher's passion evolves into a healthcare leadership role? On today's episode we welcome Quint Studer. Quint is a former special education teacher, lifelong student and teacher of leadership. He is the author of 15 books, including his latest book Rewiring Excellence, and serves on numerous healthcare boards, and is a frequent speaker, workshop facilitator, and mentor to individuals and organizations. He has a gift for translating complex strategies into doable behaviors that allow organization sto achieve long-term success.
Recently, Quint co-founded Healthcare Plus Solutions Group with longtime colleague Dan Collard. HPSG specializes in delivering Precision Leader Development™ solutions to healthcare organizations across the continuum of care and their teams.
This episode is a conversation about the influence of educators in shaping leaders. Quint offers insights into the profound impact of educators on his life and career as well as highlights the importance of teaching in healthcare leadership. Quint goes on to discuss a leader's role in nurturing their team/faculty by offering individualized support and investing in them to help retain talent and reach their fullest potential.
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Episode Transcript
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Anthony Stanowski (00:00):
Melissa, thank you very much for that
introduction and a warm welcometoday to Quinn Studer.
Quinn is a member of the CAHMEboard and, Quint, thank you very
much for joining, master ofyour Healthcare Career.
Quint Studer (00:13):
Well, thank you.
You know I'm a big believer inCAHME.
I always tell people when theyare thinking of going to a
university to make sure theylook at the accreditation,
because I think that assuresthat they're getting not that
you can't in a non-CAHMEaccredited university in college
, but I think when you have aCAMI accreditation you can be
assured that it's a high qualityprogram.
Anthony Stanowski (00:36):
Yeah, thank you, quinn.
I think it's that level ofsurety that we kind of help
employers understand when theyhire students from an accredited
program they're more sure ofsuccess.
But I want to talk about that alittle bit because the focus of
today's session is going to bemaybe a little different than a
lot of other podcasts thatyou've done.
I want to focus on a part ofyour career that was very early
(01:02):
in the journey and it was whenyou were a special education
teacher, which again requires anaccreditation and a
certification to have a teachingit.
But could you talk a little bitabout what were some of the
lessons you've learned, why youwent into special ed and what
were some of the lessons youlearned around that?
Quint Studer (01:23):
Well, I went into special ed really because of the
impact of a teacher on me.
I'm hearing impaired.
It's not unusual for somebodythat's hearing impaired to have
a speech impediment which I havebetter than it used to be by
far and to be behind inacademics because you miss
verbiage, you miss what's beingsaid.
It's not unusual for someonewith a serious hearing
(01:45):
impairment, which I have on deafon one side here, a little bit
on the other side to end up twoor three years behind in school.
So that means you're alwaysstruggling.
I had a soccer coach namedCoach King and I had two study
halls.
If you had two study halls youcould go out, get out of one
(02:05):
study hall and you could go dosomething else.
Coach King had me come to hisclassroom and sort of be what
you would call a studentassistant and my job was to
literally take the boys inspecial ed because now we're in
a regular high school to thelibrary, sit with them and then
take them back, and the reasonthey wanted somebody walking
(02:27):
with them in the hallway, sadly,is to keep them from being
teased or ridiculed or somethinglike that, and I've always had
great empathy for people thatmaybe have challenges.
So when I went to college Ididn't grow up in a college
background, so I majored inundecided.
I didn't know.
So if anybody wants any adviceon Western civilization, let me
(02:49):
know.
Did you take all these courses?
And at the end of my sophomoreyear I had 60 credits and you
need 120 to graduate.
And the University of WisconsinWhitewater said you're now
going to go where you could takecredits that won't count toward
a major, because you've takenall the basics.
You need to pick a major.
You know, I was stymied becauseI didn't know a lot about
(03:12):
college degrees and didn't growup in a college degree community
.
So I started thinking aboutwho's had a huge impact on me
and it came down to teachers.
And so when I thought about theteachers that had a huge impact
on me, coach King came up.
So I said I want to be ateacher.
They said what do you want toteach?
And I thought about I can'tspell well, and what do you
(03:34):
teach?
The whole bit.
And I said I want to teach highschool kids and I don't know
exactly how I described it.
But they said oh, you want tobe a special education teacher.
And I said yes.
And they said well, what do youwant to teach in special ed?
Well, high school, becauseCoach King taught high school.
So I really had a role model ofa fellow named Coach King and I
(03:55):
also found out something magicwhen I was in that classroom.
I don't know if I helped thekids, but they helped me Because
I felt helping those childrenmade me feel purpose, made me
feel like I was doing somethingworthwhile and made me feel I
was making a difference.
So and I think that's what wedo in health care every single
day.
It's it's a different world,but it's still making a
(04:18):
difference and doing worthwhilework and serving with purpose.
Anthony Stanowski (04:23):
You know it's .
It's funny.
You mentioned the impact ofyour teachers and your teachers
and how that kind of meant somuch to you.
I there was a quote on yourwebsite when let me let me kind
of repeat it you said inrewiring leadership development,
the goal is to help each personoptimize their own uniqueness
(04:46):
to achieve the outcomes theywant from their career.
And rewiring leadershipdevelopment.
And I thought that really isthe definition of a teacher.
Quint Studer (04:57):
Well, and teachers of healthcare administration.
I mean you're having a hugeimpact because, basically, if
you're again in a program forhealthcare administration,
you're obviously there, becausethe good news is you're
self-aware, that you need tolearn, which is number one
self-awareness.
Number two you're going to beable to share things in the
classroom situation that youmight be reluctant to share in
(05:19):
an actual, really work situation, because there is that feeling
of I don't know, you know, Idon't want to look silly or
stupid.
Plus, you're exposed becauseyou're in with other people.
So if you're in a classroom,you're going to be with people
that work at differentorganizations, different parts
of their career.
So it's almost like gettingbest practices for nothing.
Anthony Stanowski (05:41):
You know, what I want to talk to you about
is not necessarily the role ofthe faculty in healthcare
management, education, teachingthe students about what it means
to be a healthcare leader,which is an important role.
But you and I kind of talked alittle while ago about the role
of healthcare leaders and one ofthe things that you said is
(06:05):
that healthcare leaders need tolearn how to be teachers.
Healthcare leaders need tolearn how to be teachers.
Go through that, those kind ofthoughts, with our listeners
today.
Quint Studer (06:18):
I think, as healthcare has become more
sophisticated, we've had peoplethat specialize in things.
So I'm not sure.
But you know, today, when Ilook at what's happening, you
have all these new people inhealthcare, you have all these
new leaders in healthcare.
And what we've reallydiscovered in working with
organizations is you can'tdelegate development.
(06:41):
Larry Bossidy, who wrote thebook called Execution, says
there's two things you don'tdelegate.
One is selection of talent.
Two is development of talent.
Now, it doesn't mean that youdon't have other people
providing these resources.
So what I've learned in that Ithink everybody in a leadership
position needs to realizethey're a chief development
officers.
(07:01):
Now, it doesn't mean that thepeople you work for might not go
to a course on training orselection, but when they come
back, you've got to be the onethat makes sure that you're
supporting it and anchoring itand so on.
And we've really learned that,Anthony, and working these last
couple of years with CEOs, it'slike a light bulb goes off,
(07:22):
because if you've got managersthat aren't performing well,
it's not.
Oh, let's blame HR for notdeveloping, it's not, let's
blame OD organizational vote fornot developing.
They can provide resources.
The person that has to be incharge of developing the talent
is the person that issupervising them, and I think
that's a real in a bit of ashift.
(07:43):
I think people have always saidI'm involved in it, but if you
go around and just ask everysingle leader, I tell CEOs, go
around your executive team andjust say everybody that reports
to you what's the number oneskill that you're working with
them on developing right now andtell me how you're helping them
develop that skill.
There's a bit of a gap and Ithink that's what we're trying
(08:04):
to bring back.
Or in the health care.
Real seriously is how do youhelp develop these individuals
that work for you, because theyneed development.
Anthony Stanowski (08:13):
And in your book, a rewiring excellence, you
talk about the n equals one interms of that development, that
it's not a mass developmentthing.
Hey, let's, everybody, let's godown to the auditorium and
learn about what it takes.
But it's really the leaderworking with each person
individually and understandingwhere they need to develop.
Quint Studer (08:33):
Yet when my book.
The reason I wrote the book isbecause what we've been doing
isn't working all that well.
And now, if it is working,don't change it.
That's what I say If it'sworking, don't change it.
And I love the fact I'm goingto be tomorrow in a big health
care system for an LDI andthey'll have 800 people in this
room from all over their wholesystem, and I love that.
(08:54):
They're going to hear from theCEO.
We're going to do some greattable activities, but it's
really, even though it's calleda leadership development
institute, I would like to sayit's more like leadership
awareness institute.
And they're going to and it'sall good, they're going to hear
from the CEO and they're goingto walk out with some more
awareness.
But where does the real learningoccur?
The learning occurs when theyget back to their job and they
(09:17):
sit with their boss and theytalk about okay, what's the
outcome we're trying to achieve?
Okay, with that outcome.
So one of the things we'retalking about at this session is
retention of talent.
Okay, so because we have a lot,it's a big challenge.
How do we retain talent?
So, when they come back, thennot everyone, but leaders that
(09:37):
have challenges with turnovershould probably be talking about
.
Okay, so what did I learn andhow do I practice it and how do
I put it into play and what arethe barriers that you can help
me remove so I can achieve whatI want?
So what it basically says isdon't change the current
development you're doing.
But it might not be working ifyou still have high turnover, if
(10:01):
your employee engagement isn'tlooking good, if your length of
stay is too high because lengthof stay is correlated to
turnover too, because you havetoo many new people in the
organization who have a longerlength of stay is your patient
experience, which hasn't movedsince 2016 in most organizations
.
So everything you're doingmakes sense, but it's not enough
, and what I mean N equals one.
(10:22):
It means everybody's a uniqueindividual.
So Anthony's going to learndifferently than Melissa's going
to learn different than Dana'sgoing to learn.
You're coming in at differentexperience levels.
You're coming in differentpersonality traits.
You're coming in with differentpotential.
So I need to sort of do almostlike you do for a patient, a
pathology.
(10:43):
I need to look at anindividual's pathology, their
DNA in a way, and say how do wemaximize their learning
potential, which is what you doagain when you teach you
maximize people's learningpotential.
Anthony Stanowski (10:56):
You know, quinn, you made me think back.
I was like you.
I was a fifth grade teachermany, many years ago, and
there's an old saying that if ateacher, then by your students
you'll be taught, and I'm sureyou're familiar with that.
I think about that N equals one, because what I learned during
(11:17):
my several years as a teacherwas to really start to look at
the individuals and what theyneed, what was important to them
in that class.
One of the stories I tell isthere was this student who was a
little bit of a troublesomestudent and I noticed that when
(11:37):
I would say to him, joey, youknow you really aren't doing
your work, you need to stayafter school.
I noticed that when I said thatto him he actually liked that,
and so all of a sudden it becameJoey, if you get your work done
, can you come back after schooland stay with me?
I want to talk about the Flyersgame last night, did you see it
(11:58):
?
And it turned the wholerelationship with the student
and I think also I like to thinkkind of help turn some of his
outcomes in the classes aroundas well too.
That N equals one is almostkind of a part of being a
teacher.
Quint Studer (12:20):
Well, it is a teacher for special education,
for example, for every studentyou have something called an
individualized education planand it's taken that student and
saying we as an individual,where are they at?
What's the outcome we'relooking for?
How are we going to allcoordinate so we help provide
that outcome?
How are we going to track it ona regular basis?
(12:41):
So if you look at a lot of mywork, when I talk about 90 day
plans, I talk about somethingright now we're calling the OSAR
.
What's the outcome?
What's the skill?
What's the action with theresources?
It really comes to how we ineducation we individualize the
train, the development.
So we need to do that in healthcare to individualize the
(13:01):
leadership training.
And I got a nice note from aCEO who read Rewiring Excellence
, michelle Fortune, and she saidyou know, I can't wait to go
back to the managers and startnarrowing the scope of what I'm
asking them to do to make itdoable.
And I know I'm going toactually see signs of joy in
their faces when I go throughthis.
And I think, as a teacher youand I talked about this in the
(13:24):
pre-call there's certain things,of course, as a teacher that
when you're into health carethat you've got to learn that
you didn't learn a teacher.
I didn't worry aboutproductivity in the class or I
didn't worry about cash balance.
I didn't worry about processimprovement all that much days
cash on hand.
Anthony Stanowski (13:43):
Let me argue with you there, because I know
one of the things I had to docandy sales.
So I had to make sure, right.
Quint Studer (13:51):
But as a teacher, there's many things we do.
Number one is we set a loftygoal because we want our child
to do children were teaching todo the best we can.
Isn't that, in health care,what we do?
We want our people we lead tobe the best they can be.
We set goals, we reward andrecognize performance.
We talk about consequences.
(14:12):
So I think there's just manythings as a teacher, and one of
the mistakes I made, anthony,when I got into health care, is
I sort of thought I'd put thataway.
I put that away, and it wasn'tuntil I was at Holy Cross
Hospital in Chicago that Irealized that merely my job is
to continue to take noteverything, but many of the
techniques I used in theclassroom and bring them into
(14:34):
health care and help.
Now the whole goal is to havethe best middle management team.
Whoever has the best middlemanagement team wins.
Well, these are people thatprobably don't have a master's,
don't have a health careleadership degree, because
they're good at a certain set oftactics, but then our job is to
help develop them in theleadership.
And God, what a wonderful thingthat we can do when we help
(14:57):
people become better leaders,because it's a tough job and we
want them to go home notthinking what they didn't do.
We want them to go home feelingjoyful for what they did.
Anthony Stanowski (15:07):
Yeah, well, and Quint, you know, when you
talk to your team you knowHealthcare Plus Strategies Group
and the Studer CommunityInstitute and all of the
organizations you really get thesense that each of them feel
you care about them and youreally want to develop them
better and they know thatinvestment that they feel from
(15:31):
you.
Quint Studer (15:32):
Here's a little technique we've learned recently
which is pretty cool, and I wassharing this with Terry Helen
Bremer at TriHealth the otherday.
Sometimes in a big healthcaresystem we give a deadline, like,
okay, everybody gets this donein two weeks, but everybody's
got a different job.
So, for example, if maybe I'vegot three direct reports, I can
roll out the Employee EngagementSurvey in two weeks.
(15:54):
But if I'm a med-search, Ialways use med-search because I
usually have the biggest ban ofcontrol.
And I said if you're amed-search nurse manager and
you've got people that mightwork two days a week, you've got
people that might havedifferent schedules, you've got
24 hours a day, seven days aweek how long is it going to
take you to roll this out?
(16:14):
And they might say, well, it'sgoing to take me six weeks.
And I just did that withactually with three wiring
excellence, with three wiringexcellence, you know, even
though our staff was reading it,knowing it, we wanted them to
fill out a review of it.
What did they like?
What could it be better?
And so the question was when doyou want this review back?
And I said why don't we askeach person?
I said have things going on intheir lives.
(16:35):
When do they think they cancomplete the review?
Well, some people said a week,some people said two weeks, some
people said three weeks, andyou know, normally they come in
in a game plan that's going tofit your need and if there's an
outlier you say, can you make ita little quicker?
We've never had that.
So this is a small example.
(16:55):
But when you ask people, whendo you think you can complete
this, you're listening, you'rehaving empathy for their
schedule and they're veryappreciative and in healthcare
we just tend to give a you know,get this done by this, not
realizing everybody comes inwith different, different loads,
different spans of control.
Maybe I'm going away for a week, so now, if you tell me two
(17:18):
weeks, you've split it down toone week.
So I just think it's trying tohave empathy.
And again, I'm a huge believerthat we can learn from precision
medicine.
Precision medicine looks at theindividual to create a
treatment plan based on thatindividual's biomarkers,
mutations, age, everything.
And that's what we can do withleaders.
(17:39):
And there's a sense of reliefwhen you talk to leaders about
individualizing it.
But going back to what we'vealso talked about is what we're
finding is certain leaders thathave been promoted, got promoted
because they're subject matterexperts but they've never really
had a lot of training,development on developing people
, developing change.
(18:01):
I was on the curriculumcommittee with Regina Hertzinger
at Harvard and we said thenumber one skill set a person
needs is change management.
So this last week I was at OhioMental Health and Addiction
Services because they're puttingan EPIC and they wanted me to
come in and help them get thechange process right.
With the EPIC they're notworried about the technology
(18:21):
implementation, they're talkingabout how do we get the people
to be compliant with what we'reasking for.
And I thought that was reallyneat on Lori and Marissa's part
to think about the peoplecomponent.
And because what happens whenwe're in an organization is we
plan the facility change, thetechnology change and we just
(18:42):
think the people will happen andit doesn't.
Anthony Stanowski (18:44):
Yeah, and that's.
I think you've kind of hit onone of the secrets of management
.
You hear a lot of people go.
I really don't like being amanager and it is tough.
I mean it's an understanding ofwho the people are and creating
an empathy and then ensuringthat we're all kind of working
toward the same common goals ofwhat we want to accomplish.
(19:04):
And again, how much is thatreally kind of taught in the
curriculums and how does thatget?
Quint Studer (19:12):
I think the neat part is it's starting to.
We're starting to see that, asyou know, with Baylor, with
Forrest, and that Is thatrelooking at the people
component.
I have a new book coming outwith Dr Catherine Mease from the
University of Alabama,birmingham, called the Human
Margin Building the Foundationof Trust.
Because if you look at thenewest research, because of the
(19:32):
pandemic, trust in thehealthcare organization is
really gone way, way down.
So you've got to be able tolook at how do you create tools
and techniques to address thesituation in healthcare, and so
I think it's pretty cool thatthe book's called the Human
Margin, because really, if wedon't get the people right,
(19:54):
we're not going to get thecompliance right.
If we don't get the complianceright, we're not going to get
the rest of it right.
Anthony Stanowski (20:00):
Just a little note about Catherine Mease.
There's a little thread goingin there.
We're putting out a new aboutKami video and the voice of the
about Kami video will beCatherine Mease, and I just
thought it was so appropriateand the team let me kind of not
(20:21):
take the credit for it One ofthe team members kind of
suggested Melissa Cross and saidyou know, she really resonates
with what I want to accomplishand where I am with my life and
we just felt it was a reallyfitting voiceover to kind of do
for the about Kami.
So it'll be something for youand our listeners to see in the
(20:43):
next couple of months is we'restill kind of nearing the ending
stage of the development of it.
We're real happy about the workwith Catherine.
Quint Studer (20:53):
Yeah, I know we've had a great time working
together on this book becauseyou know it was an academia
meets an operator and I thinkwhat happened is she was did a
great job with here's theresearch and she had some
solutions to and then to me myjob was to say okay, if people
are not trusting the seniorleadership team, what are some
tools and techniques we can goto build that trust back.
(21:15):
So I think people really likethe book because it's a.
It's a different book becausewhen I give a solution, somebody
says do any research for this.
Now, when Catherine does theresearch, they say do any
solutions for that research?
Well, we tried to bring themtogether in one book.
Anthony Stanowski (21:30):
Well, I'm looking forward to reading that
and I also want to say to the,to our listeners out there I've
read rewiring excellence and Iwas.
I was someone who's gotactually two copies of
hardwiring excellence up on mybookshelf and assigned one from
you, quint and I.
(21:51):
That was to me a breakthroughbook.
When it initially came out itwas a New York Times bestseller.
It really was in the hands of alot of hospital CEOs.
But you really kind of taken adifferent look at it with
rewiring excellence and what youlearned over the past couple of
decades.
Quint Studer (22:07):
Yeah, it's 20 years and there's many things
that are really good in the bookwhat you need to still have the
same pillars you should still,of course, do purpose.
All that stuff's there, but Idid it because the results
haven't been there, and ifyou've just based gun results,
so why aren't they there?
So we spent two years in thefield looking at why aren't the
results there and what welearned that we've got to take a
(22:28):
fresh look at some things andwe sort of combined precision
medicine, which is looking atindividuals with precision
leadership.
I think one of the neatchapters in there is rewiring
well-being, as we talk aboutwell-being but less than 3% of
employees in health care accessmental health, so we really talk
about relooking at that.
(22:48):
All of a sudden, many of thephysicians are now part of a
they're a W2 employee orsomething part of a system.
How do we rewire, how we engagephysicians?
So there's some really morebiggest change items and then
there's some just some tweaks,like a set of five questions to
a patient.
Ask one question and instead offilling out an iPad and a
(23:11):
software tool, it's okay to havea note card right on a note
card and follow up later,because you don't want.
You don't want yourrelationship building to look
transactional.
You want it to look like it is.
You want to look.
What it is is to get to knowyou better and to make sure that
you have what you need to doyour job today.
Anthony Stanowski (23:30):
You know it's funny, I think, about
performance reviews that you dowith people and across my career
I've had performance reviewswhere it was like a hundred
questions and I was rated oneach of them by, you know, my
manager and we'd go through itand everything.
And we've kind of changed it atCAMI.
We have three questions.
Number one what have you donethat's been really well and
(23:52):
you're proud about.
Number two where are thereopportunities for you to improve
?
And number three how can I helpyou achieve your goals?
And what I found with aperformance review like that is
it really the employees kind offill it out first and then the
manager makes comments about itand then.
(24:13):
But I really kind of feel likethat sets the stage about where
you know you, the employee, bothneed to go into the future and
to be very effective.
Quint Studer (24:24):
Well, I think it's a real fact.
If I try to tell people youknow we love to talk about
evaluation, why don't you callthem development reviews?
And one of the things we foundout through our work with the
ANA and AONL and our recentstudies on the insight for care
model studies with 3,100 nurses,92% of people in nurse
leadership that they skilldevelopment is vital to them,
(24:46):
and 80% of frontline employees,yet many of them don't feel
they're getting it to where theywould like.
So, really, what I tell peopleand I think this is great for
your audience is our message hasto be to people we want to
invest in you.
We want to invest in you.
It's not an expense, it's aninvestment and we want to in
your skill development.
(25:07):
I was asked George WashingtonUniversity for a capstone course
certain of my thoughts on CEOsand I said well, there's two
words I listen to with the CEOwhen it comes to training and
development.
If they use the word where it'san investment, they're probably
a dang good CEO.
If they get caught up intraining and development as an
expense, they're probably not,because you have to look at
(25:29):
building your talent as aninvestment, not an expense.
Anthony Stanowski (25:33):
Yeah, yeah.
So let me talk about thatinvestment in one second.
And, quinn, you've been verygenerous to Cami and to the
future healthcare leaders, andone of the things that we're
really proud of this year is thedevelopment of a scholarship,
the Cami Wind Studer Scholarshipfor students, for students in
(25:57):
graduate healthcare managementand education programs, and it
focuses on those students whohave a passion for education,
and what we're looking at thereis a passion for developing
others, not necessarily thatthese are folks who want to be a
faculty member it could be butreally what we're looking for
are people who really want tohelp develop others.
(26:19):
And talk a little bit about thegenesis of the creation of that
scholarship.
Quint Studer (26:25):
And one of the things that I noticed about
people is there are certainpeople that get really excited
when they see people thatthey've touched actually
sometimes perform better thanthey did or achieve goals that
they didn't have.
And there's also people thatwill develop someone and get
threatened by if they get really, really good.
And one of the things I noticedis, you know, I own a couple of
(26:48):
minor league baseball teams,and what's really neat about
minor league baseball teams ismany of the managers maybe
weren't successful at the majorleague level, but they played
minor league baseball.
Maybe they touched mine.
You know our manager, theprincipal of the law, who smoke
gainers a great manager, I mean,you're great.
He's won 200 games with theblue.
(27:08):
Why who's?
Last year they won thechampionship and he gets talent
and makes it so much better.
Now he never played in themajor leagues, Yet when one of
his players gets called up, ifhe is so excited.
So I'm looking for the type ofperson that gets joy out of
helping other people besuccessful.
Anthony Stanowski (27:28):
Yeah, well, well, quinn, thank you for doing
that and we're looking forwardif there's folks listening out
there If you go to our website,camiorg, and under the awards
area, we'll provide more detailon how you would apply for the
scholarship.
Quinn, as always, this has beena fascinating phone call for me
(27:52):
, you know.
Again, thank you for all you do.
I don't think people reallykind of understand the impact
that you're making on the futureleaders of health care, and you
know your, your commitment tohigher education and what you're
doing there is just phenomenal,so I appreciate all that you do
.
Quint Studer (28:10):
Well, it's always been important to me, anthony,
and I think I know how teacherschange my life, where I went to
college, also how they changedmy life, so it's been a huge
impact for me.
And being part of CAMI, beingpart of AUPHA over the years,
being part of all theseorganizations, I have
unbelievable respect and it'ssort of cool.
I ran into a new chiefoperating officer of West
(28:31):
Florida Medical Center the otherday and he came up to me and he
went to to VirginiaCommonwealth.
We talked about what a greatprogram that is and and he said
to me you know, your booksreally is what made my career.
And wow, is that ever a coolfeeling.
Now he made his career, youknow, but it's nice to know that
(28:52):
I've had a small impact and Iwant to continue to have it.
And CAMI allows me to reach outto people that have
unbelievable great love andrespect for.
Anthony Stanowski (29:01):
Thank you.
So let me leave a quote thatyou said the only legacy we
leave behind is those we teach.
So, quinn, thank you.
Thank you for being aphenomenal teacher, a great
supporter of CAMI and all thatyou do for us.
Thank you, anthony.
Melissa, thank you very much for that
introduction and a warm welcometoday to Quinn Studer.
Quinn is a member of the CAHMEboard and, Quint, thank you very
much for joining, master ofyour Healthcare Career.
Quint Studer (00:13):
Well, thank you.
You know I'm a big believer inCAHME.
I always tell people when theyare thinking of going to a
university to make sure theylook at the accreditation,
because I think that assuresthat they're getting not that
you can't in a non-CAHMEaccredited university in college
, but I think when you have aCAMI accreditation you can be
assured that it's a high qualityprogram.
Anthony Stanowski (00:36):
Yeah, thank you, quinn.
I think it's that level ofsurety that we kind of help
employers understand when theyhire students from an accredited
program they're more sure ofsuccess.
But I want to talk about that alittle bit because the focus of
today's session is going to bemaybe a little different than a
lot of other podcasts thatyou've done.
I want to focus on a part ofyour career that was very early
(01:02):
in the journey and it was whenyou were a special education
teacher, which again requires anaccreditation and a
certification to have a teachingit.
But could you talk a little bitabout what were some of the
lessons you've learned, why youwent into special ed and what
were some of the lessons youlearned around that?
Quint Studer (01:23):
Well, I went into special ed really because of the
impact of a teacher on me.
I'm hearing impaired.
It's not unusual for somebodythat's hearing impaired to have
a speech impediment which I havebetter than it used to be by
far and to be behind inacademics because you miss
verbiage, you miss what's beingsaid.
It's not unusual for someonewith a serious hearing
(01:45):
impairment, which I have on deafon one side here, a little bit
on the other side to end up twoor three years behind in school.
So that means you're alwaysstruggling.
I had a soccer coach namedCoach King and I had two study
halls.
If you had two study halls youcould go out, get out of one
(02:05):
study hall and you could go dosomething else.
Coach King had me come to hisclassroom and sort of be what
you would call a studentassistant and my job was to
literally take the boys inspecial ed because now we're in
a regular high school to thelibrary, sit with them and then
take them back, and the reasonthey wanted somebody walking
(02:27):
with them in the hallway, sadly,is to keep them from being
teased or ridiculed or somethinglike that, and I've always had
great empathy for people thatmaybe have challenges.
So when I went to college Ididn't grow up in a college
background, so I majored inundecided.
I didn't know.
So if anybody wants any adviceon Western civilization, let me
(02:49):
know.
Did you take all these courses?
And at the end of my sophomoreyear I had 60 credits and you
need 120 to graduate.
And the University of WisconsinWhitewater said you're now
going to go where you could takecredits that won't count toward
a major, because you've takenall the basics.
You need to pick a major.
You know, I was stymied becauseI didn't know a lot about
(03:12):
college degrees and didn't growup in a college degree community
.
So I started thinking aboutwho's had a huge impact on me
and it came down to teachers.
And so when I thought about theteachers that had a huge impact
on me, coach King came up.
So I said I want to be ateacher.
They said what do you want toteach?
And I thought about I can'tspell well, and what do you
(03:34):
teach?
The whole bit.
And I said I want to teach highschool kids and I don't know
exactly how I described it.
But they said oh, you want tobe a special education teacher.
And I said yes.
And they said well, what do youwant to teach in special ed?
Well, high school, becauseCoach King taught high school.
So I really had a role model ofa fellow named Coach King and I
(03:55):
also found out something magicwhen I was in that classroom.
I don't know if I helped thekids, but they helped me Because
I felt helping those childrenmade me feel purpose, made me
feel like I was doing somethingworthwhile and made me feel I
was making a difference.
So and I think that's what wedo in health care every single
day.
It's it's a different world,but it's still making a
(04:18):
difference and doing worthwhilework and serving with purpose.
Anthony Stanowski (04:23):
You know it's .
It's funny.
You mentioned the impact ofyour teachers and your teachers
and how that kind of meant somuch to you.
I there was a quote on yourwebsite when let me let me kind
of repeat it you said inrewiring leadership development,
the goal is to help each personoptimize their own uniqueness
(04:46):
to achieve the outcomes theywant from their career.
And rewiring leadershipdevelopment.
And I thought that really isthe definition of a teacher.
Quint Studer (04:57):
Well, and teachers of healthcare administration.
I mean you're having a hugeimpact because, basically, if
you're again in a program forhealthcare administration,
you're obviously there, becausethe good news is you're
self-aware, that you need tolearn, which is number one
self-awareness.
Number two you're going to beable to share things in the
classroom situation that youmight be reluctant to share in
(05:19):
an actual, really work situation, because there is that feeling
of I don't know, you know, Idon't want to look silly or
stupid.
Plus, you're exposed becauseyou're in with other people.
So if you're in a classroom,you're going to be with people
that work at differentorganizations, different parts
of their career.
So it's almost like gettingbest practices for nothing.
Anthony Stanowski (05:41):
You know, what I want to talk to you about
is not necessarily the role ofthe faculty in healthcare
management, education, teachingthe students about what it means
to be a healthcare leader,which is an important role.
But you and I kind of talked alittle while ago about the role
of healthcare leaders and one ofthe things that you said is
(06:05):
that healthcare leaders need tolearn how to be teachers.
Healthcare leaders need tolearn how to be teachers.
Go through that, those kind ofthoughts, with our listeners
today.
Quint Studer (06:18):
I think, as healthcare has become more
sophisticated, we've had peoplethat specialize in things.
So I'm not sure.
But you know, today, when Ilook at what's happening, you
have all these new people inhealthcare, you have all these
new leaders in healthcare.
And what we've reallydiscovered in working with
organizations is you can'tdelegate development.
(06:41):
Larry Bossidy, who wrote thebook called Execution, says
there's two things you don'tdelegate.
One is selection of talent.
Two is development of talent.
Now, it doesn't mean that youdon't have other people
providing these resources.
So what I've learned in that Ithink everybody in a leadership
position needs to realizethey're a chief development
officers.
(07:01):
Now, it doesn't mean that thepeople you work for might not go
to a course on training orselection, but when they come
back, you've got to be the onethat makes sure that you're
supporting it and anchoring itand so on.
And we've really learned that,Anthony, and working these last
couple of years with CEOs, it'slike a light bulb goes off,
(07:22):
because if you've got managersthat aren't performing well,
it's not.
Oh, let's blame HR for notdeveloping, it's not, let's
blame OD organizational vote fornot developing.
They can provide resources.
The person that has to be incharge of developing the talent
is the person that issupervising them, and I think
that's a real in a bit of ashift.
(07:43):
I think people have always saidI'm involved in it, but if you
go around and just ask everysingle leader, I tell CEOs, go
around your executive team andjust say everybody that reports
to you what's the number oneskill that you're working with
them on developing right now andtell me how you're helping them
develop that skill.
There's a bit of a gap and Ithink that's what we're trying
(08:04):
to bring back.
Or in the health care.
Real seriously is how do youhelp develop these individuals
that work for you, because theyneed development.
Anthony Stanowski (08:13):
And in your book, a rewiring excellence, you
talk about the n equals one interms of that development, that
it's not a mass developmentthing.
Hey, let's, everybody, let's godown to the auditorium and
learn about what it takes.
But it's really the leaderworking with each person
individually and understandingwhere they need to develop.
Quint Studer (08:33):
Yet when my book.
The reason I wrote the book isbecause what we've been doing
isn't working all that well.
And now, if it is working,don't change it.
That's what I say If it'sworking, don't change it.
And I love the fact I'm goingto be tomorrow in a big health
care system for an LDI andthey'll have 800 people in this
room from all over their wholesystem, and I love that.
(08:54):
They're going to hear from theCEO.
We're going to do some greattable activities, but it's
really, even though it's calleda leadership development
institute, I would like to sayit's more like leadership
awareness institute.
And they're going to and it'sall good, they're going to hear
from the CEO and they're goingto walk out with some more
awareness.
But where does the real learningoccur?
The learning occurs when theyget back to their job and they
(09:17):
sit with their boss and theytalk about okay, what's the
outcome we're trying to achieve?
Okay, with that outcome.
So one of the things we'retalking about at this session is
retention of talent.
Okay, so because we have a lot,it's a big challenge.
How do we retain talent?
So, when they come back, thennot everyone, but leaders that
(09:37):
have challenges with turnovershould probably be talking about
.
Okay, so what did I learn andhow do I practice it and how do
I put it into play and what arethe barriers that you can help
me remove so I can achieve whatI want?
So what it basically says isdon't change the current
development you're doing.
But it might not be working ifyou still have high turnover, if
(10:01):
your employee engagement isn'tlooking good, if your length of
stay is too high because lengthof stay is correlated to
turnover too, because you havetoo many new people in the
organization who have a longerlength of stay is your patient
experience, which hasn't movedsince 2016 in most organizations
.
So everything you're doingmakes sense, but it's not enough
, and what I mean N equals one.
(10:22):
It means everybody's a uniqueindividual.
So Anthony's going to learndifferently than Melissa's going
to learn different than Dana'sgoing to learn.
You're coming in at differentexperience levels.
You're coming in differentpersonality traits.
You're coming in with differentpotential.
So I need to sort of do almostlike you do for a patient, a
pathology.
(10:43):
I need to look at anindividual's pathology, their
DNA in a way, and say how do wemaximize their learning
potential, which is what you doagain when you teach you
maximize people's learningpotential.
Anthony Stanowski (10:56):
You know, quinn, you made me think back.
I was like you.
I was a fifth grade teachermany, many years ago, and
there's an old saying that if ateacher, then by your students
you'll be taught, and I'm sureyou're familiar with that.
I think about that N equals one, because what I learned during
(11:17):
my several years as a teacherwas to really start to look at
the individuals and what theyneed, what was important to them
in that class.
One of the stories I tell isthere was this student who was a
little bit of a troublesomestudent and I noticed that when
(11:37):
I would say to him, joey, youknow you really aren't doing
your work, you need to stayafter school.
I noticed that when I said thatto him he actually liked that,
and so all of a sudden it becameJoey, if you get your work done
, can you come back after schooland stay with me?
I want to talk about the Flyersgame last night, did you see it
(11:58):
?
And it turned the wholerelationship with the student
and I think also I like to thinkkind of help turn some of his
outcomes in the classes aroundas well too.
That N equals one is almostkind of a part of being a
teacher.
Quint Studer (12:20):
Well, it is a teacher for special education,
for example, for every studentyou have something called an
individualized education planand it's taken that student and
saying we as an individual,where are they at?
What's the outcome we'relooking for?
How are we going to allcoordinate so we help provide
that outcome?
How are we going to track it ona regular basis?
(12:41):
So if you look at a lot of mywork, when I talk about 90 day
plans, I talk about somethingright now we're calling the OSAR
.
What's the outcome?
What's the skill?
What's the action with theresources?
It really comes to how we ineducation we individualize the
train, the development.
So we need to do that in healthcare to individualize the
(13:01):
leadership training.
And I got a nice note from aCEO who read Rewiring Excellence
, michelle Fortune, and she saidyou know, I can't wait to go
back to the managers and startnarrowing the scope of what I'm
asking them to do to make itdoable.
And I know I'm going toactually see signs of joy in
their faces when I go throughthis.
And I think, as a teacher youand I talked about this in the
(13:24):
pre-call there's certain things,of course, as a teacher that
when you're into health carethat you've got to learn that
you didn't learn a teacher.
I didn't worry aboutproductivity in the class or I
didn't worry about cash balance.
I didn't worry about processimprovement all that much days
cash on hand.
Anthony Stanowski (13:43):
Let me argue with you there, because I know
one of the things I had to docandy sales.
So I had to make sure, right.
Quint Studer (13:51):
But as a teacher, there's many things we do.
Number one is we set a loftygoal because we want our child
to do children were teaching todo the best we can.
Isn't that, in health care,what we do?
We want our people we lead tobe the best they can be.
We set goals, we reward andrecognize performance.
We talk about consequences.
(14:12):
So I think there's just manythings as a teacher, and one of
the mistakes I made, anthony,when I got into health care, is
I sort of thought I'd put thataway.
I put that away, and it wasn'tuntil I was at Holy Cross
Hospital in Chicago that Irealized that merely my job is
to continue to take noteverything, but many of the
techniques I used in theclassroom and bring them into
(14:34):
health care and help.
Now the whole goal is to havethe best middle management team.
Whoever has the best middlemanagement team wins.
Well, these are people thatprobably don't have a master's,
don't have a health careleadership degree, because
they're good at a certain set oftactics, but then our job is to
help develop them in theleadership.
And God, what a wonderful thingthat we can do when we help
(14:57):
people become better leaders,because it's a tough job and we
want them to go home notthinking what they didn't do.
We want them to go home feelingjoyful for what they did.
Anthony Stanowski (15:07):
Yeah, well, and Quint, you know, when you
talk to your team you knowHealthcare Plus Strategies Group
and the Studer CommunityInstitute and all of the
organizations you really get thesense that each of them feel
you care about them and youreally want to develop them
better and they know thatinvestment that they feel from
(15:31):
you.
Quint Studer (15:32):
Here's a little technique we've learned recently
which is pretty cool, and I wassharing this with Terry Helen
Bremer at TriHealth the otherday.
Sometimes in a big healthcaresystem we give a deadline, like,
okay, everybody gets this donein two weeks, but everybody's
got a different job.
So, for example, if maybe I'vegot three direct reports, I can
roll out the Employee EngagementSurvey in two weeks.
(15:54):
But if I'm a med-search, Ialways use med-search because I
usually have the biggest ban ofcontrol.
And I said if you're amed-search nurse manager and
you've got people that mightwork two days a week, you've got
people that might havedifferent schedules, you've got
24 hours a day, seven days aweek how long is it going to
take you to roll this out?
(16:14):
And they might say, well, it'sgoing to take me six weeks.
And I just did that withactually with three wiring
excellence, with three wiringexcellence, you know, even
though our staff was reading it,knowing it, we wanted them to
fill out a review of it.
What did they like?
What could it be better?
And so the question was when doyou want this review back?
And I said why don't we askeach person?
I said have things going on intheir lives.
(16:35):
When do they think they cancomplete the review?
Well, some people said a week,some people said two weeks, some
people said three weeks, andyou know, normally they come in
in a game plan that's going tofit your need and if there's an
outlier you say, can you make ita little quicker?
We've never had that.
So this is a small example.
(16:55):
But when you ask people, whendo you think you can complete
this, you're listening, you'rehaving empathy for their
schedule and they're veryappreciative and in healthcare
we just tend to give a you know,get this done by this, not
realizing everybody comes inwith different, different loads,
different spans of control.
Maybe I'm going away for a week, so now, if you tell me two
(17:18):
weeks, you've split it down toone week.
So I just think it's trying tohave empathy.
And again, I'm a huge believerthat we can learn from precision
medicine.
Precision medicine looks at theindividual to create a
treatment plan based on thatindividual's biomarkers,
mutations, age, everything.
And that's what we can do withleaders.
(17:39):
And there's a sense of reliefwhen you talk to leaders about
individualizing it.
But going back to what we'vealso talked about is what we're
finding is certain leaders thathave been promoted, got promoted
because they're subject matterexperts but they've never really
had a lot of training,development on developing people
, developing change.
(18:01):
I was on the curriculumcommittee with Regina Hertzinger
at Harvard and we said thenumber one skill set a person
needs is change management.
So this last week I was at OhioMental Health and Addiction
Services because they're puttingan EPIC and they wanted me to
come in and help them get thechange process right.
With the EPIC they're notworried about the technology
(18:21):
implementation, they're talkingabout how do we get the people
to be compliant with what we'reasking for.
And I thought that was reallyneat on Lori and Marissa's part
to think about the peoplecomponent.
And because what happens whenwe're in an organization is we
plan the facility change, thetechnology change and we just
(18:42):
think the people will happen andit doesn't.
Anthony Stanowski (18:44):
Yeah, and that's.
I think you've kind of hit onone of the secrets of management
.
You hear a lot of people go.
I really don't like being amanager and it is tough.
I mean it's an understanding ofwho the people are and creating
an empathy and then ensuringthat we're all kind of working
toward the same common goals ofwhat we want to accomplish.
(19:04):
And again, how much is thatreally kind of taught in the
curriculums and how does thatget?
Quint Studer (19:12):
I think the neat part is it's starting to.
We're starting to see that, asyou know, with Baylor, with
Forrest, and that Is thatrelooking at the people
component.
I have a new book coming outwith Dr Catherine Mease from the
University of Alabama,birmingham, called the Human
Margin Building the Foundationof Trust.
Because if you look at thenewest research, because of the
(19:32):
pandemic, trust in thehealthcare organization is
really gone way, way down.
So you've got to be able tolook at how do you create tools
and techniques to address thesituation in healthcare, and so
I think it's pretty cool thatthe book's called the Human
Margin, because really, if wedon't get the people right,
(19:54):
we're not going to get thecompliance right.
If we don't get the complianceright, we're not going to get
the rest of it right.
Anthony Stanowski (20:00):
Just a little note about Catherine Mease.
There's a little thread goingin there.
We're putting out a new aboutKami video and the voice of the
about Kami video will beCatherine Mease, and I just
thought it was so appropriateand the team let me kind of not
(20:21):
take the credit for it One ofthe team members kind of
suggested Melissa Cross and saidyou know, she really resonates
with what I want to accomplishand where I am with my life and
we just felt it was a reallyfitting voiceover to kind of do
for the about Kami.
So it'll be something for youand our listeners to see in the
(20:43):
next couple of months is we'restill kind of nearing the ending
stage of the development of it.
We're real happy about the workwith Catherine.
Quint Studer (20:53):
Yeah, I know we've had a great time working
together on this book becauseyou know it was an academia
meets an operator and I thinkwhat happened is she was did a
great job with here's theresearch and she had some
solutions to and then to me myjob was to say okay, if people
are not trusting the seniorleadership team, what are some
tools and techniques we can goto build that trust back.
(21:15):
So I think people really likethe book because it's a.
It's a different book becausewhen I give a solution, somebody
says do any research for this.
Now, when Catherine does theresearch, they say do any
solutions for that research?
Well, we tried to bring themtogether in one book.
Anthony Stanowski (21:30):
Well, I'm looking forward to reading that
and I also want to say to the,to our listeners out there I've
read rewiring excellence and Iwas.
I was someone who's gotactually two copies of
hardwiring excellence up on mybookshelf and assigned one from
you, quint and I.
(21:51):
That was to me a breakthroughbook.
When it initially came out itwas a New York Times bestseller.
It really was in the hands of alot of hospital CEOs.
But you really kind of taken adifferent look at it with
rewiring excellence and what youlearned over the past couple of
decades.
Quint Studer (22:07):
Yeah, it's 20 years and there's many things
that are really good in the bookwhat you need to still have the
same pillars you should still,of course, do purpose.
All that stuff's there, but Idid it because the results
haven't been there, and ifyou've just based gun results,
so why aren't they there?
So we spent two years in thefield looking at why aren't the
results there and what welearned that we've got to take a
(22:28):
fresh look at some things andwe sort of combined precision
medicine, which is looking atindividuals with precision
leadership.
I think one of the neatchapters in there is rewiring
well-being, as we talk aboutwell-being but less than 3% of
employees in health care accessmental health, so we really talk
about relooking at that.
(22:48):
All of a sudden, many of thephysicians are now part of a
they're a W2 employee orsomething part of a system.
How do we rewire, how we engagephysicians?
So there's some really morebiggest change items and then
there's some just some tweaks,like a set of five questions to
a patient.
Ask one question and instead offilling out an iPad and a
(23:11):
software tool, it's okay to havea note card right on a note
card and follow up later,because you don't want.
You don't want yourrelationship building to look
transactional.
You want it to look like it is.
You want to look.
What it is is to get to knowyou better and to make sure that
you have what you need to doyour job today.
Anthony Stanowski (23:30):
You know it's funny, I think, about
performance reviews that you dowith people and across my career
I've had performance reviewswhere it was like a hundred
questions and I was rated oneach of them by, you know, my
manager and we'd go through itand everything.
And we've kind of changed it atCAMI.
We have three questions.
Number one what have you donethat's been really well and
(23:52):
you're proud about.
Number two where are thereopportunities for you to improve
?
And number three how can I helpyou achieve your goals?
And what I found with aperformance review like that is
it really the employees kind offill it out first and then the
manager makes comments about itand then.
(24:13):
But I really kind of feel likethat sets the stage about where
you know you, the employee, bothneed to go into the future and
to be very effective.
Quint Studer (24:24):
Well, I think it's a real fact.
If I try to tell people youknow we love to talk about
evaluation, why don't you callthem development reviews?
And one of the things we foundout through our work with the
ANA and AONL and our recentstudies on the insight for care
model studies with 3,100 nurses,92% of people in nurse
leadership that they skilldevelopment is vital to them,
(24:46):
and 80% of frontline employees,yet many of them don't feel
they're getting it to where theywould like.
So, really, what I tell peopleand I think this is great for
your audience is our message hasto be to people we want to
invest in you.
We want to invest in you.
It's not an expense, it's aninvestment and we want to in
your skill development.
(25:07):
I was asked George WashingtonUniversity for a capstone course
certain of my thoughts on CEOsand I said well, there's two
words I listen to with the CEOwhen it comes to training and
development.
If they use the word where it'san investment, they're probably
a dang good CEO.
If they get caught up intraining and development as an
expense, they're probably not,because you have to look at
(25:29):
building your talent as aninvestment, not an expense.
Anthony Stanowski (25:33):
Yeah, yeah.
So let me talk about thatinvestment in one second.
And, quinn, you've been verygenerous to Cami and to the
future healthcare leaders, andone of the things that we're
really proud of this year is thedevelopment of a scholarship,
the Cami Wind Studer Scholarshipfor students, for students in
(25:57):
graduate healthcare managementand education programs, and it
focuses on those students whohave a passion for education,
and what we're looking at thereis a passion for developing
others, not necessarily thatthese are folks who want to be a
faculty member it could be butreally what we're looking for
are people who really want tohelp develop others.
(26:19):
And talk a little bit about thegenesis of the creation of that
scholarship.
Quint Studer (26:25):
And one of the things that I noticed about
people is there are certainpeople that get really excited
when they see people thatthey've touched actually
sometimes perform better thanthey did or achieve goals that
they didn't have.
And there's also people thatwill develop someone and get
threatened by if they get really, really good.
And one of the things I noticedis, you know, I own a couple of
(26:48):
minor league baseball teams,and what's really neat about
minor league baseball teams ismany of the managers maybe
weren't successful at the majorleague level, but they played
minor league baseball.
Maybe they touched mine.
You know our manager, theprincipal of the law, who smoke
gainers a great manager, I mean,you're great.
He's won 200 games with theblue.
(27:08):
Why who's?
Last year they won thechampionship and he gets talent
and makes it so much better.
Now he never played in themajor leagues, Yet when one of
his players gets called up, ifhe is so excited.
So I'm looking for the type ofperson that gets joy out of
helping other people besuccessful.
Anthony Stanowski (27:28):
Yeah, well, well, quinn, thank you for doing
that and we're looking forwardif there's folks listening out
there If you go to our website,camiorg, and under the awards
area, we'll provide more detailon how you would apply for the
scholarship.
Quinn, as always, this has beena fascinating phone call for me
(27:52):
, you know.
Again, thank you for all you do.
I don't think people reallykind of understand the impact
that you're making on the futureleaders of health care, and you
know your, your commitment tohigher education and what you're
doing there is just phenomenal,so I appreciate all that you do
.
Quint Studer (28:10):
Well, it's always been important to me, anthony,
and I think I know how teacherschange my life, where I went to
college, also how they changedmy life, so it's been a huge
impact for me.
And being part of CAMI, beingpart of AUPHA over the years,
being part of all theseorganizations, I have
unbelievable respect and it'ssort of cool.
I ran into a new chiefoperating officer of West
(28:31):
Florida Medical Center the otherday and he came up to me and he
went to to VirginiaCommonwealth.
We talked about what a greatprogram that is and and he said
to me you know, your booksreally is what made my career.
And wow, is that ever a coolfeeling.
Now he made his career, youknow, but it's nice to know that
(28:52):
I've had a small impact and Iwant to continue to have it.
And CAMI allows me to reach outto people that have
unbelievable great love andrespect for.
Anthony Stanowski (29:01):
Thank you.
So let me leave a quote thatyou said the only legacy we
leave behind is those we teach.
So, quinn, thank you.
Thank you for being aphenomenal teacher, a great
supporter of CAMI and all thatyou do for us.
Thank you, anthony.
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