In this episode we welcome Dennis Kain, MHA FACHE, the Senior Vice President of Executive Search Services with Kirby Bates Associates. In a conversation that feels more like a reunion of old friends, Anthony and Dennis explore the twists and turns of a 40-year career span starting with a healthcare management degree from George Washington University, extensive leadership experience in healthcare operations, hospital management and national consulting, and his expertise working within provider settings, including serving as a hospital CEO.
Dennis and Anthony travel through the nuances of professional growth and go through the art of standing out as an internal candidate. They reference Dennis' recent article in Healthcare Executives, "Stand Out as an Internal Candidate," and the four success tips for moving ahead in an organization. It's about understanding the market, knowing when to make a lateral move, and navigating the silent periods of the job search process. Whether you're looking to impress in your next interview or you're curious about the strategic importance of networking, this is a great listen for early careerists.
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Episode Transcript
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Anthony Stanowski (12:15):
Dennis, thank you very much for participating
on our on master your healthcare career podcast.
It's great for you to be heretoday.
Thanks for having me.
Dennis, you and I have knowneach other for a while and I
think some of it is from thelocal ACHE chapter here in the
(12:36):
Philadelphia area, but I thinkpart of it was we met when you
were the CEO at Lower BucksHospital in Philadelphia area,
which is an interesting kind ofpart because you were a graduate
of the MHA program at GeorgeWashington University, a CAMI
accredited program.
And where did you goimmediately after graduation and
(13:00):
then how did you wind up atLower Bucks and then how?
Dennis Kain (13:04):
did you wind up at Lowerbox?
Well, my dad was a physicianleader and he suggested a career
in health system management.
Going way back, didundergraduate work at Lafayette,
was a history major.
So I went to graduate school atGW and from there I worked in
(13:27):
both nonprofit and for-profithealth systems along with a
publicly traded firm calledMedic, and then I served as the
CEO of the health system inPennsylvania for eight years and
then I became an executivesearch consultant for the second
half of my career.
So I've enjoyed placing CEOsand other C-suite leaders for
health systems around thecountry over the years.
Anthony Stanowski (13:51):
Yeah, so you went from your MHA into
consulting.
Dennis Kain (13:55):
No, I went from the MHA.
I worked as administrativeresident first at a
multi-hospital system called RHMedical which had four low
for-profit hospitals up in thePhilly area, and then St
Christopher's Hospital forChildren bought them.
Believe it or not, they floateda bond issue in 1980.
(14:17):
And then it became thisfor-hospital system became
non-profit overnight.
So I worked with them for atotal of about nine years.
Then I worked at medic where wehad management contracts for
hospitals and other consultingthings.
We developed a lithotripsy,lithotripsy uh center and also
(14:38):
we did a national uh imagingcenter using the brand new thing
called mri the time.
So we opened up a bunch ofimaging centers around the
country and from there one ofour management contracts was at
Lower Bucks and that's how Istarted over at Bristol,
Pennsylvania, oh, wow.
Anthony Stanowski (14:56):
Okay, executive search is a really
interesting kind of place andposition and for the folks who
are listening on the call, todaywe're not going to talk so much
about the executive searchprocess because we're really
looking at the people who areearly careerists and how do you
(15:17):
move up from there.
But I do think executive searchis really one of those big
unknowns for people.
And when you move into thatexecutive search, what are some
of the interesting parts thatyou've seen about recruiting
people for roles?
What are some of the reallyparts that distinguish your
(15:41):
different candidates as theykind of move up?
Dennis Kain (15:46):
Well, it is interesting to see it from the
other side.
You've got it exactly right.
So, after having worked for 20some years in operations and
leadership on the provider side,then to step into the executive
search side, and just you justsee the world and the market
from a different lens lens.
(16:14):
So for me, I'd say there weretwo major league observations.
One is that there are potentialcandidates out there that do
their job, that keep their headdown like I did.
You do your accomplishments andyou don't pay a bit of
attention to the marketplace, sothere's very little networking
going on.
On the other side, there aresome people that haven't seen a
job they didn't like or didn'tthink that they were qualified
for, so they apply to every oneof them.
(16:35):
And then there are some folksin the middle that kind of keep
an eye out.
But in most of the discussionsI've had with grad students
along the way, it's a suggestionthat they keep their eyes on
the market.
Don't go overboard, but don'tbe an ostrich either.
Keep an eye out there, haverelationships perhaps with two
or three different search firmsand just keep an eye on things.
(16:58):
This is my suggestion, butdon't become that person that
applies for each and everythingthat comes down the line.
The other point is that when yousee a profile that's written up
by either an organization for ajob or from an executive search
company, they put a lot of timeand effort into that profile.
Read it carefully becausethere's a certain expectation of
(17:24):
what they want not only fromsomebody at the job, but also
what they want qualificationscoming into the job.
So when I was running ahospital I used to love to
promote folks from one role toanother because we knew their
gifts they might not havematched exactly.
When you get into executivesearch you're working for a
(17:44):
client.
Oftentimes particularly searchcommittees of CEOs of met up
with board members.
They want specific backgrounds,specific examples, specific
experience.
I call it round peg, round holeto complete that job.
So if you think about bringingsomebody in with a background
(18:05):
that's a little different, youbetter be right.
Anthony Stanowski (18:08):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, now that goes back intoyou know the article that I read
that you had written inHealthcare Executive in May and
June of 2023.
And we're going to try to getpermission from ACHE to kind of
put that into our podcast sopeople can look at it.
But it was May, june, 2023, andit was called Stand Out as an
(18:32):
Internal Candidate.
And what really kind of hit meabout this article is how do you
get ahead within yourorganization?
How do you really kind ofposition yourself to when it
comes time for the seniorexecutives in the company, who
are looking around for the nextperson to kind of lead an
(18:52):
initiative?
How do they know to call you?
What led you to write thisarticle, dennis?
Dennis Kain (18:59):
Well, the environment has changed, in my
view, just watching this thingover the course of years.
For several reasons.
The market for internalcandidates, I believe, is a
better one now than it used tobe.
The continued turnover of CEOlevel obviously creates
opportunities for people movingthrough the roles.
(19:21):
But this, combined with theacute workforce shortages and
challenges created by thepandemic, the cost of
recruitment, the focus ondeveloping a more diverse
leadership team, these have allcombined to make a more
competitive environment thatreally favorably leans toward
(19:41):
internal candidates.
Again, in my view, it's teed upnicely for folks on an internal
basis, for the right opportunityto put their hat in the ring,
if you will, and reach out to beconsidered Now how to stand out
, how to position yourself.
(20:03):
That was the point of the art,which is basically to say, okay,
before you apply for a role inyour own organization, talk to a
couple of folks that you trustand ask them.
You know how are you perceived,find out what the perception of
you is like in the organizationand do you need to develop
(20:25):
certain critical skills.
But when you get to a pointwhere there's a job posted and
you like it and you think you'reready for it, then that's when
it moves forward.
You put your hat in the ringand you determine how does this
role fit with the healthsystem's overall strategy?
The advantage you have ishaving worked there.
(20:47):
You know what theorganization's mission is, you
know what they are trying toachieve and you've actually
lived it, so you learn about thejob.
You learn about the interviewingprocess because you can talk to
the HR department that's postedthe role.
You're right there, which isjust terrific, terrific.
(21:12):
And from there you learn aboutwho's going to be doing the
interviews.
You do the research on thefolks that are going to be
interviewing you, but don'tassume that they know what your
accomplishments are.
There's two parts of this.
One, if I'm an internalcandidate and I've been with an
organization for oh, I don'tknow more than 10 years, folks
might remember me more when Ifirst started and may not be
(21:32):
aware of what I've accomplishedrecently.
So that when you get ready togo for it, you want to be sure
that you take it like you'regoing to another organization to
do it.
Don't assume that people knowwhat you've done.
Tell them.
So it's your opportunity todiscuss your most recent
accomplishments.
Anthony Stanowski (21:55):
Your first step is a really interesting one
, which you talk about find outhow you're perceived, and you
talked about that and I kind oflook at that as a really
interesting part, because whenyou come in as a student which a
lot of people they graduatefrom their healthcare management
programs, they do theirresidency, sometimes they get
hired on after their residency,but there are frequently that
(22:18):
perception that what people knowis, oh, they're the student and
how do you kind of move out ofthat?
How you're the student part,that's that whole part in number
one.
That's really important.
Dennis Kain (22:31):
Well, the best example I have.
It was all the way back when Istarted and a fellow that was in
purchasing looked at me andlaughed every once in a while
because he had started in thishospital when he was much
younger and he was still knowneven though he was in purchasing
.
He was much younger and he wasstill known, even though he was
in purchasing, as the kid fromthe laundry and ultimately he
(22:53):
ended up being in charge of theentire supply chain coordination
for the VHA.
Now it's busy down in Dallas,but you know, for years and
years, as far as his originalplace of employment was, he was
the kid from the laundry.
So what I've seen is that, youknow, organizations will use an
(23:14):
executive search form, even ifthey know that there's going to
be internal candidates.
They want to measure it andthey want to have the
opportunity for internalcandidates to go through the
process.
And what I have found is thatit's been an eye-opening
experience for some of the folkson these interview panels to
say, whoa, this person is wayfarther along in their
(23:37):
development than I expected.
And, based on that and whatwe're seeing straight away,
that's had an impact on thedecision whether to hire
internally or hire an externaland we measure external and
internals to the same profilestraight away.
But when you get to theinterview stage, who knows
(24:01):
what's going to happen?
But for those folks that havethe internal relationships, the
internal networks and they knowthe organization, they already
have a step up in my view.
So for the early careeristsoftentimes they get known
through volunteering for taskforces, for teams, some
(24:23):
improvement opportunity andmaybe they even have an
opportunity to lead one.
Either way, there are methodswith which you can find out how
folks think about you and it's agood start to say you know
someone comes to you and saysyou really don't want to go for
that job because you need towork on these things first.
(24:44):
That's probably the greatestadvice you could ever get from
someone that would be thathonest with you the greatest
advice you could ever get fromsomeone that would be that
honest with you.
Anthony Stanowski (24:52):
And Dennis, you know that moves into the
second part, which was learneverything about the job and the
interview process.
And one of the stories thatreally kind of when I was in
that stage where I was moving upwithin an organization I won't
name the health system that thiswas in, but the CIO role kind
of opened up and I talked to afew people about it and one of
the comments was Anthony, youdefinitely don't want to do that
(25:16):
job.
That's the job.
When people can't get theirthings accomplished, they blame
the information technologydepartment.
And I remember after talking toa couple of people I realized
that that was just not apolitical position that I really
want to stick myself in at thatparticular time.
But that that ability to havehonest conversations with other
(25:40):
people in the organization Ithink you know is what you're
really kind of talking aboutcreating those relationships
that people can talk to you.
You know, not just about howyou're perceived but, number two
, everything that they knowabout the job process.
Dennis Kain (25:56):
It's valuable.
I mean just that story is sovaluable to ask and get
information back to people thatyou trust within an organization
.
It's just you can't put, youcan't quantify it right.
I mean we've had individualswho raise their hand for a role
and just didn't seem to have allthe chops for it but did well
(26:21):
with the interviews and did wellwithin the process overall and
ultimately the organization saidyou know, we want to give this
person a chance, but what we'vedecided to do is to provide some
coaching for that person.
So for the early career ofstepping into a leadership
opportunity where theorganization has that capability
(26:44):
, you know, for six months to ayear.
I mean our organization doesthat as well.
We're an executive search firm.
We also provide interim and wealso provide coaching.
But my point is that there arecertain times where a health
system really wants to promotefrom within if they possibly can
.
It's a good message to thecommunity.
(27:07):
It's a good message to themarketplace that we stand by not
only good recruitment butretention.
It's a good retention mechanismto say join us, you will have
opportunities to grow yourcareer here, you don't have to
go upstairs.
Anthony Stanowski (27:24):
Yeah, and, like you said, it's a good, it's
a great feeling for employeesto know that there are
opportunities for improvementand advancement within the
organization.
Your third item in the articleso one was find out how you're
perceived.
Second one is learn everythingabout the job and the interview
process.
And your third item was balancefamiliarity with
(27:45):
professionalism, balance,familiarity with professionalism
.
Again, a little story from myown career is what I remember
especially.
You know there's there's funtimes when you're in the 20,
you're in your twenties andyou're growing your career and
you're also growing your networkplaying softball with the
hospital softball team.
I don't know if those stillexist anymore, but there's a
(28:06):
hospital softball team, hospitalbasketball team.
I remember one place I gotpicked to be Santa Claus for the
holiday Christmas party and itwas just such an incredibly part
where you're taking thatfamiliarity and balancing it
with a level of professionalism.
And I think the important partthere is make sure you have that
(28:28):
balance.
Dennis Kain (28:29):
So and I'm sure you've seen some careers get
derailed because there wasn'tnecessarily that balance that
occurred- Right, and again forthe early careers that you're
mentioning if you are able toparticipate in an interview
process in an organization whereyou've been for a year, two,
three, whatever that be, tomaintain that decorum, to
(28:55):
maintain that professionalism,get in the room, answer the
questions, explain to them whoyou are, what you're about,
don't let your hair down, typething, because some folks will
not react well to that thinking.
You're just simply playing onthe fact that you're here
already.
Anthony Stanowski (29:14):
You have a sub-point under three and that
gets at what you're just saying,which is approach the interview
as if you are an outsider.
So don't make sure you knowthat you're serious about what
the interview that you're goingon and the position you're
looking for, but don't come inwith ohim, you know how are you
doing and um, that, that, um,for me, use your familiarity to
(29:40):
kind of understand what's goingon, but don't look like you're
glanhan glanhanding at theinterview process that's.
Dennis Kain (29:47):
And if you find that this role has been the
organization, decided departmentand an executive search firm,
you're told by the HR departmentthat it's Ajax.
You make contact with themstraight away.
I mean, that's all absolutelykosher to reach out to the
(30:09):
executive search representativeinvolved in the actual
recruitment and you make thatintroduction.
Ultimately, as I mentioned, itwill be good in your career to
have ongoing relationships withthree or four different search
firms along the way.
So reaching out to them iscertainly fine.
(30:31):
All I will say is that thereare certain times during a
search where things get quiet Icall it radio silence and it
comes with the territory, sothat after you've done your
interview, know that they'llprobably be interviewing others
and just be patient and it'sokay.
Anthony Stanowski (30:53):
It's a tough part and, having been through
different searches in my owncareer, that radio silence part
really just drives you nuts,because you really get
interested in the position.
You kind of feel like I can seemyself in there and then you
don't hear anything, uh, for awhile.
And you could.
Dennis Kain (31:14):
You could blow it at that point too, and I'm sure
you've seen that occur yeah, uh,we tend, as humans, we tend to
connect dots that, uh, in theabsence of information, or
invent dots which, uh, reallycan be, um, well dangerous for
lack of a better terminappropriate.
So what we try to do is toexplain that there will be times
(31:36):
where it does get quiet, butthat's okay.
Anthony Stanowski (31:40):
Yeah, the interesting part that you and I,
when we were talking beforeabout this is you talked about
you should reach out.
If you're an internal candidateand there is a search firm,
that you still should reach outto the search firm and have some
discussions within there aswell too.
Dennis Kain (31:58):
Absolutely, it's okay.
As a matter of fact, it saves alot of people a lot of time if
we're still, if the executivesearch company is still putting
together the profile.
They might need a little moretime to even get back to you
simply because they're gatheringthat information, but they're
glad that you reached out andthey will share that profile
(32:18):
review once it's approved andthen start that process.
Anthony Stanowski (32:24):
Ask poignant questions.
So again, it was a subsomething.
You have four main points thatyou're getting at, but one of
your other points in there is toask poignant questions.
How do you create a poignantquestion as you go into the
interview process?
Dennis Kain (32:42):
Well, it's an interesting word, Well thought
out.
One have some questions out.
One have some questions.
There's nothing worse than whenan interview panel has asked
their questions and they look tothe candidate and say do you
have any questions?
And the candidate goes no, so Ihad.
Well, here's another one.
(33:05):
A candidate was asked a questionfrom the EVP of the health
system Tell me something thathas humbled you.
And the candidate said I can'tthink of it.
So you know, that's when youget a call from the client
straight away saying you're notgoing to believe this.
In this case, you want to havetwo or three questions well
(33:27):
thought out ahead of time.
Now, what can they be?
I have two or three questionswell thought out ahead of time.
Now, what can they be?
Well, what would be yourdefinition of success for the
person that takes this role in ayear?
You know what are you lookingfor.
Tell me what your vision isabout this role.
I mean, that's one of theclassic ones, but it really gets
to the heart of the matter,doesn't it?
Well, we need a strategic plan.
(33:49):
All right, that's fine, weunderstand.
Or we need these metrics to behit, or at least a couple of
them, within X months.
So there's one In terms ofdevelopment for the early
careerists.
It might be a question alongthe line of you know, if this
(34:11):
comes to fruition and I takethis role, I'm still going to
want to continue my continuingeducation.
If you will and talk aboutsomething of that nature, they
can see that you're committed tothe field right.
And another question could bealong the line of the mission or
(34:31):
the strategy in theorganization.
Up to now we've been doing itthis way or we've been
approaching it this way.
Do you think that theorganization will continue with
a strategy going forward?
Anthony Stanowski (34:48):
Yeah, Dennis, one of the questions that I
think is when people are kind ofapproaching any job is salary
and compensation.
Hey, you come in at a student,all right, you get a bump up on
(35:12):
your first job because they dogive you, you know, here's what
the position kind of pays andthe salary range that it's in.
But moving up further, peoplekind of sometimes look at that
and go well, we were paying.
Susie X.
We don't need to pay her fully Y, but we can give her X and a
20% increase, although the rolemight be higher.
(35:33):
How do you kind of work throughan internal candidate, as
they're talking aboutcompensation, so that they can
accurately or fully negotiatethat part based off of what the
role is calling for and whattheir skills kind of bring into
it?
Dennis Kain (35:53):
Well, with social media these days, there's lots
of ways to find out what themarket is for a specific role
and having facts is all softlyheld right.
So let's just profoundly saythat this is a director role and
it has responsibility for thistype of a portfolio of revenues,
(36:17):
expenses and people.
And, like I said, there's a lotof places now where you can
research that and be able toarticulate it back the other way
and share it, say well, in thehomework that I've done, it
appears as if this particulartype of role, this size and all
the rest of it, is earning X andyou put it simply on the table
(36:41):
when you and I back in the daywith the ACHE negotiating
seminar.
I still have the card in mywallet and they gave you a
couple of phrases that you couldsay right and um.
One was you never know until youask.
So that's the more benign side.
(37:03):
The other one is more along theline of where they make an
offer to look straight in theeye and say you got to do better
than that.
That's a a little bit hard, butyou never know until you ask.
The easiest way is to ask thequestion.
You know, hey, I've done somehomework and looked at some of
this and you know.
Perhaps you can advise me.
Or are you finding the samewith your compensation
(37:27):
consultants?
Anthony Stanowski (37:28):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and that's one of
the arguments, too, as to whysometimes growing within your
own organization is harder thanjumping around from place to
place.
And you know, what do you seeas the pros and cons on both
kind of approaches for the youngcareers that's out there?
Dennis Kain (37:49):
It still applies to a certain degree.
It depends on the organization.
For me, um, right now, thereare certain states in the union,
certain towns and certainstates where you're not allowed
to ask what are you thinkingright?
So the question becomes whatare your expectations for the
vote, as a way of you know, withall the gender issues and
(38:12):
everything else, of blastingthrough that type of anchor
holding people back fromwhatever salary equity there
should be.
So the expectation question isreally the key to the matter.
I have done some homework onthis and you know from what I've
seen in the marketplace, youknow I would expect that this
(38:34):
should pay out.
Yeah, absolutely.
Anthony Stanowski (38:38):
Let me just go through the four points again
just to remind everyone findout how you're perceived, learn
everything about the job andinterview process.
Number three balancefamiliarity with professionalism
.
And ending number four, seekout the executive search firm
and have some conversations inthere and understand where it's
(38:59):
going.
So those are the four keypoints.
There's a few others thatyou've kind of talked about in
there.
Well, you know, I thinkinternal advancement is really
critical for people as they kindof move through.
It's while people talk aboutnot wanting to spend their full
careers at any one organization.
If you can show, even whenyou're going to an other
(39:21):
organization, that you've beenpromoted or given additional
responsibilities along the way,it makes you a far more
attractive candidate.
Dennis Kain (39:29):
I agree, my opening act at one hospital in the
health system was for nine years, but I don't think I had the
same job for more than two ofthose years, so it was always
something different and that'sto your whole point.
So there are ways of gettingdifferent experiences and then
leveraging that.
When you're able to discuss itwith others, you know, yes, it
(39:52):
was the same employer, but no,it was a different job.
Anthony Stanowski (39:55):
It's funny, Dennis, mine as well.
My opening act was the sametype of thing.
We went from an administrativeresident to an analyst, to a
senior analyst, to a manager, toa director, and it was
interesting how kind of indifferent departments and you
jump around.
But it's so true, how kind ofin different departments and you
jump around, but it's so true.
There's also something to besaid about the other person who
(40:20):
maybe only spends one or twoyears at an organization and you
look at their resume and it'slike, well, wait a minute, you
were at health system A and thenyou were a physician practice
and within a span of 10 yearsyou jumped five or six different
places.
The negative connotationsaround that, Dennis, do you want
to comment on that?
Dennis Kain (40:35):
Yeah, there's a certain amount of movement
that's expected early and thegoal there, of course, is that
you're learning different things.
I've had folks that say, look,I've got the provider's side on
the hospital.
I wanted to get them throughthe practice, I wanted to get
them through the practice, Iwanted to get the payer side.
So you know touching thedifferent bases, and now I'm
(40:57):
prepared to do the following.
But I did it all on purpose.
So at some point you know, tobe at a place for five years
after having a few stops of youknow two years or so would be
very helpful, to be sure,because other than that it would
get looked at as a job popper.
That does have its own negativeconnotation.
(41:19):
But early on we're not on acareer ladder per se.
We're on a career lattice.
We're always looking to move up, and sometimes even sideways,
but if we want to get additionalexperience for a certain reason
, that was part of our plan.
That's terrific.
Anthony Stanowski (41:35):
And that's a good point, you know.
Back to the salary part issometimes you might actually
take a place where the salary isnot a big jump but you're
learning a whole other set ofskills and experience around
there.
That makes you more valuable inthe long run.
Dennis Kain (41:48):
That's right.
Anthony Stanowski (41:48):
Yeah, dennis, as always, it valuable in the
long run.
That's right.
Yeah, Dennis, as always, it'sso much fun talking to you and I
love.
I know you'll probably be atACHE's Congress in a couple of
weeks, so we'll get to see eachother again there as well.
It's always fun running intoyou and, you know, I think as I
think about someone who reallyhas kind of taken networking to
(42:09):
heart, which is how do you helpother people along the process?
I've always found that with youand myself, and you know,
coming to you for advice andthoughts about different types
of things has always beenhelpful for me.
So again, appreciate your timehere today.
Anything, let me, let me kindof throw one more softball your
(42:29):
way and hopefully you'll hit itout of the park for us as we
approach spring training rightnow for the Major League
Baseball.
The importance of CAMIaccreditation when a student
goes to a graduate program.
You yourself went to a CAMIaccredited program.
How does that help people moveforward in their career?
Dennis Kain (42:53):
Well, it's interesting I've had the
opportunity to serve on advisoryboards for some graduate
programs, including theUniversity of Scranton and Dr
Dan West, and also currentlydown at Johns Hopkins, and so
I'm very impressed with thelevel that the graduate programs
(43:16):
are going to close the loop,that we're teaching this stuff
and we show that all theselessons I'll use that term for a
minute all the things thatwe're trying to get across have
actually been digested, whetherit's here in the academic, in
the classroom, or whether it'sout in the residency, and then
(43:38):
you're utilizing the preceptorsand again keeping, closing that
loop and documenting.
So it's obviously a littledifferent experience than when I
went, but the point is thatthey're always looking to
improve their curriculum, makeit relevant and make sure that
what they're providing is makingits way and the students gain
(44:04):
that experience, they gain thosecredentials and off they go.
Anthony Stanowski (44:10):
Absolutely, dennis.
I think it's that level ofsurety that comes with I'm going
to a good graduate program.
There's always looking attrying to improve and trying to
get better, and then I think themarket kind of responds and
goes hey, we're looking at astudent who's gone through a
leading program and trying tokind of figure out how to move
forward.
The surety that we have withthat, that student, that early
(44:32):
careerist is, is in there.
Dennis Kain (44:33):
so yeah, the academy presentation is very,
very important, dennis, asalways
Dennis, thank you very much for participating
on our on master your healthcare career podcast.
It's great for you to be heretoday.
Thanks for having me.
Dennis, you and I have knowneach other for a while and I
think some of it is from thelocal ACHE chapter here in the
(12:36):
Philadelphia area, but I thinkpart of it was we met when you
were the CEO at Lower BucksHospital in Philadelphia area,
which is an interesting kind ofpart because you were a graduate
of the MHA program at GeorgeWashington University, a CAMI
accredited program.
And where did you goimmediately after graduation and
(13:00):
then how did you wind up atLower Bucks and then how?
Dennis Kain (13:04):
did you wind up at Lowerbox?
Well, my dad was a physicianleader and he suggested a career
in health system management.
Going way back, didundergraduate work at Lafayette,
was a history major.
So I went to graduate school atGW and from there I worked in
(13:27):
both nonprofit and for-profithealth systems along with a
publicly traded firm calledMedic, and then I served as the
CEO of the health system inPennsylvania for eight years and
then I became an executivesearch consultant for the second
half of my career.
So I've enjoyed placing CEOsand other C-suite leaders for
health systems around thecountry over the years.
Anthony Stanowski (13:51):
Yeah, so you went from your MHA into
consulting.
Dennis Kain (13:55):
No, I went from the MHA.
I worked as administrativeresident first at a
multi-hospital system called RHMedical which had four low
for-profit hospitals up in thePhilly area, and then St
Christopher's Hospital forChildren bought them.
Believe it or not, they floateda bond issue in 1980.
(14:17):
And then it became thisfor-hospital system became
non-profit overnight.
So I worked with them for atotal of about nine years.
Then I worked at medic where wehad management contracts for
hospitals and other consultingthings.
We developed a lithotripsy,lithotripsy uh center and also
(14:38):
we did a national uh imagingcenter using the brand new thing
called mri the time.
So we opened up a bunch ofimaging centers around the
country and from there one ofour management contracts was at
Lower Bucks and that's how Istarted over at Bristol,
Pennsylvania, oh, wow.
Anthony Stanowski (14:56):
Okay, executive search is a really
interesting kind of place andposition and for the folks who
are listening on the call, todaywe're not going to talk so much
about the executive searchprocess because we're really
looking at the people who areearly careerists and how do you
(15:17):
move up from there.
But I do think executive searchis really one of those big
unknowns for people.
And when you move into thatexecutive search, what are some
of the interesting parts thatyou've seen about recruiting
people for roles?
What are some of the reallyparts that distinguish your
(15:41):
different candidates as theykind of move up?
Dennis Kain (15:46):
Well, it is interesting to see it from the
other side.
You've got it exactly right.
So, after having worked for 20some years in operations and
leadership on the provider side,then to step into the executive
search side, and just you justsee the world and the market
from a different lens lens.
(16:14):
So for me, I'd say there weretwo major league observations.
One is that there are potentialcandidates out there that do
their job, that keep their headdown like I did.
You do your accomplishments andyou don't pay a bit of
attention to the marketplace, sothere's very little networking
going on.
On the other side, there aresome people that haven't seen a
job they didn't like or didn'tthink that they were qualified
for, so they apply to every oneof them.
(16:35):
And then there are some folksin the middle that kind of keep
an eye out.
But in most of the discussionsI've had with grad students
along the way, it's a suggestionthat they keep their eyes on
the market.
Don't go overboard, but don'tbe an ostrich either.
Keep an eye out there, haverelationships perhaps with two
or three different search firmsand just keep an eye on things.
(16:58):
This is my suggestion, butdon't become that person that
applies for each and everythingthat comes down the line.
The other point is that when yousee a profile that's written up
by either an organization for ajob or from an executive search
company, they put a lot of timeand effort into that profile.
Read it carefully becausethere's a certain expectation of
(17:24):
what they want not only fromsomebody at the job, but also
what they want qualificationscoming into the job.
So when I was running ahospital I used to love to
promote folks from one role toanother because we knew their
gifts they might not havematched exactly.
When you get into executivesearch you're working for a
(17:44):
client.
Oftentimes particularly searchcommittees of CEOs of met up
with board members.
They want specific backgrounds,specific examples, specific
experience.
I call it round peg, round holeto complete that job.
So if you think about bringingsomebody in with a background
(18:05):
that's a little different, youbetter be right.
Anthony Stanowski (18:08):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, now that goes back intoyou know the article that I read
that you had written inHealthcare Executive in May and
June of 2023.
And we're going to try to getpermission from ACHE to kind of
put that into our podcast sopeople can look at it.
But it was May, june, 2023, andit was called Stand Out as an
(18:32):
Internal Candidate.
And what really kind of hit meabout this article is how do you
get ahead within yourorganization?
How do you really kind ofposition yourself to when it
comes time for the seniorexecutives in the company, who
are looking around for the nextperson to kind of lead an
(18:52):
initiative?
How do they know to call you?
What led you to write thisarticle, dennis?
Dennis Kain (18:59):
Well, the environment has changed, in my
view, just watching this thingover the course of years.
For several reasons.
The market for internalcandidates, I believe, is a
better one now than it used tobe.
The continued turnover of CEOlevel obviously creates
opportunities for people movingthrough the roles.
(19:21):
But this, combined with theacute workforce shortages and
challenges created by thepandemic, the cost of
recruitment, the focus ondeveloping a more diverse
leadership team, these have allcombined to make a more
competitive environment thatreally favorably leans toward
(19:41):
internal candidates.
Again, in my view, it's teed upnicely for folks on an internal
basis, for the right opportunityto put their hat in the ring,
if you will, and reach out to beconsidered Now how to stand out
, how to position yourself.
(20:03):
That was the point of the art,which is basically to say, okay,
before you apply for a role inyour own organization, talk to a
couple of folks that you trustand ask them.
You know how are you perceived,find out what the perception of
you is like in the organizationand do you need to develop
(20:25):
certain critical skills.
But when you get to a pointwhere there's a job posted and
you like it and you think you'reready for it, then that's when
it moves forward.
You put your hat in the ringand you determine how does this
role fit with the healthsystem's overall strategy?
The advantage you have ishaving worked there.
(20:47):
You know what theorganization's mission is, you
know what they are trying toachieve and you've actually
lived it, so you learn about thejob.
You learn about the interviewingprocess because you can talk to
the HR department that's postedthe role.
You're right there, which isjust terrific, terrific.
(21:12):
And from there you learn aboutwho's going to be doing the
interviews.
You do the research on thefolks that are going to be
interviewing you, but don'tassume that they know what your
accomplishments are.
There's two parts of this.
One, if I'm an internalcandidate and I've been with an
organization for oh, I don'tknow more than 10 years, folks
might remember me more when Ifirst started and may not be
(21:32):
aware of what I've accomplishedrecently.
So that when you get ready togo for it, you want to be sure
that you take it like you'regoing to another organization to
do it.
Don't assume that people knowwhat you've done.
Tell them.
So it's your opportunity todiscuss your most recent
accomplishments.
Anthony Stanowski (21:55):
Your first step is a really interesting one
, which you talk about find outhow you're perceived, and you
talked about that and I kind oflook at that as a really
interesting part, because whenyou come in as a student which a
lot of people they graduatefrom their healthcare management
programs, they do theirresidency, sometimes they get
hired on after their residency,but there are frequently that
(22:18):
perception that what people knowis, oh, they're the student and
how do you kind of move out ofthat?
How you're the student part,that's that whole part in number
one.
That's really important.
Dennis Kain (22:31):
Well, the best example I have.
It was all the way back when Istarted and a fellow that was in
purchasing looked at me andlaughed every once in a while
because he had started in thishospital when he was much
younger and he was still knowneven though he was in purchasing
.
He was much younger and he wasstill known, even though he was
in purchasing, as the kid fromthe laundry and ultimately he
(22:53):
ended up being in charge of theentire supply chain coordination
for the VHA.
Now it's busy down in Dallas,but you know, for years and
years, as far as his originalplace of employment was, he was
the kid from the laundry.
So what I've seen is that, youknow, organizations will use an
(23:14):
executive search form, even ifthey know that there's going to
be internal candidates.
They want to measure it andthey want to have the
opportunity for internalcandidates to go through the
process.
And what I have found is thatit's been an eye-opening
experience for some of the folkson these interview panels to
say, whoa, this person is wayfarther along in their
(23:37):
development than I expected.
And, based on that and whatwe're seeing straight away,
that's had an impact on thedecision whether to hire
internally or hire an externaland we measure external and
internals to the same profilestraight away.
But when you get to theinterview stage, who knows
(24:01):
what's going to happen?
But for those folks that havethe internal relationships, the
internal networks and they knowthe organization, they already
have a step up in my view.
So for the early careeristsoftentimes they get known
through volunteering for taskforces, for teams, some
(24:23):
improvement opportunity andmaybe they even have an
opportunity to lead one.
Either way, there are methodswith which you can find out how
folks think about you and it's agood start to say you know
someone comes to you and saysyou really don't want to go for
that job because you need towork on these things first.
(24:44):
That's probably the greatestadvice you could ever get from
someone that would be thathonest with you the greatest
advice you could ever get fromsomeone that would be that
honest with you.
Anthony Stanowski (24:52):
And Dennis, you know that moves into the
second part, which was learneverything about the job and the
interview process.
And one of the stories thatreally kind of when I was in
that stage where I was moving upwithin an organization I won't
name the health system that thiswas in, but the CIO role kind
of opened up and I talked to afew people about it and one of
the comments was Anthony, youdefinitely don't want to do that
(25:16):
job.
That's the job.
When people can't get theirthings accomplished, they blame
the information technologydepartment.
And I remember after talking toa couple of people I realized
that that was just not apolitical position that I really
want to stick myself in at thatparticular time.
But that that ability to havehonest conversations with other
(25:40):
people in the organization Ithink you know is what you're
really kind of talking aboutcreating those relationships
that people can talk to you.
You know, not just about howyou're perceived but, number two
, everything that they knowabout the job process.
Dennis Kain (25:56):
It's valuable.
I mean just that story is sovaluable to ask and get
information back to people thatyou trust within an organization
.
It's just you can't put, youcan't quantify it right.
I mean we've had individualswho raise their hand for a role
and just didn't seem to have allthe chops for it but did well
(26:21):
with the interviews and did wellwithin the process overall and
ultimately the organization saidyou know, we want to give this
person a chance, but what we'vedecided to do is to provide some
coaching for that person.
So for the early career ofstepping into a leadership
opportunity where theorganization has that capability
(26:44):
, you know, for six months to ayear.
I mean our organization doesthat as well.
We're an executive search firm.
We also provide interim and wealso provide coaching.
But my point is that there arecertain times where a health
system really wants to promotefrom within if they possibly can
.
It's a good message to thecommunity.
(27:07):
It's a good message to themarketplace that we stand by not
only good recruitment butretention.
It's a good retention mechanismto say join us, you will have
opportunities to grow yourcareer here, you don't have to
go upstairs.
Anthony Stanowski (27:24):
Yeah, and, like you said, it's a good, it's
a great feeling for employeesto know that there are
opportunities for improvementand advancement within the
organization.
Your third item in the articleso one was find out how you're
perceived.
Second one is learn everythingabout the job and the interview
process.
And your third item was balancefamiliarity with
(27:45):
professionalism, balance,familiarity with professionalism
.
Again, a little story from myown career is what I remember
especially.
You know there's there's funtimes when you're in the 20,
you're in your twenties andyou're growing your career and
you're also growing your networkplaying softball with the
hospital softball team.
I don't know if those stillexist anymore, but there's a
(28:06):
hospital softball team, hospitalbasketball team.
I remember one place I gotpicked to be Santa Claus for the
holiday Christmas party and itwas just such an incredibly part
where you're taking thatfamiliarity and balancing it
with a level of professionalism.
And I think the important partthere is make sure you have that
(28:28):
balance.
Dennis Kain (28:29):
So and I'm sure you've seen some careers get
derailed because there wasn'tnecessarily that balance that
occurred- Right, and again forthe early careers that you're
mentioning if you are able toparticipate in an interview
process in an organization whereyou've been for a year, two,
three, whatever that be, tomaintain that decorum, to
(28:55):
maintain that professionalism,get in the room, answer the
questions, explain to them whoyou are, what you're about,
don't let your hair down, typething, because some folks will
not react well to that thinking.
You're just simply playing onthe fact that you're here
already.
Anthony Stanowski (29:14):
You have a sub-point under three and that
gets at what you're just saying,which is approach the interview
as if you are an outsider.
So don't make sure you knowthat you're serious about what
the interview that you're goingon and the position you're
looking for, but don't come inwith ohim, you know how are you
doing and um, that, that, um,for me, use your familiarity to
(29:40):
kind of understand what's goingon, but don't look like you're
glanhan glanhanding at theinterview process that's.
Dennis Kain (29:47):
And if you find that this role has been the
organization, decided departmentand an executive search firm,
you're told by the HR departmentthat it's Ajax.
You make contact with themstraight away.
I mean, that's all absolutelykosher to reach out to the
(30:09):
executive search representativeinvolved in the actual
recruitment and you make thatintroduction.
Ultimately, as I mentioned, itwill be good in your career to
have ongoing relationships withthree or four different search
firms along the way.
So reaching out to them iscertainly fine.
(30:31):
All I will say is that thereare certain times during a
search where things get quiet Icall it radio silence and it
comes with the territory, sothat after you've done your
interview, know that they'llprobably be interviewing others
and just be patient and it'sokay.
Anthony Stanowski (30:53):
It's a tough part and, having been through
different searches in my owncareer, that radio silence part
really just drives you nuts,because you really get
interested in the position.
You kind of feel like I can seemyself in there and then you
don't hear anything, uh, for awhile.
And you could.
Dennis Kain (31:14):
You could blow it at that point too, and I'm sure
you've seen that occur yeah, uh,we tend, as humans, we tend to
connect dots that, uh, in theabsence of information, or
invent dots which, uh, reallycan be, um, well dangerous for
lack of a better terminappropriate.
So what we try to do is toexplain that there will be times
(31:36):
where it does get quiet, butthat's okay.
Anthony Stanowski (31:40):
Yeah, the interesting part that you and I,
when we were talking beforeabout this is you talked about
you should reach out.
If you're an internal candidateand there is a search firm,
that you still should reach outto the search firm and have some
discussions within there aswell too.
Dennis Kain (31:58):
Absolutely, it's okay.
As a matter of fact, it saves alot of people a lot of time if
we're still, if the executivesearch company is still putting
together the profile.
They might need a little moretime to even get back to you
simply because they're gatheringthat information, but they're
glad that you reached out andthey will share that profile
(32:18):
review once it's approved andthen start that process.
Anthony Stanowski (32:24):
Ask poignant questions.
So again, it was a subsomething.
You have four main points thatyou're getting at, but one of
your other points in there is toask poignant questions.
How do you create a poignantquestion as you go into the
interview process?
Dennis Kain (32:42):
Well, it's an interesting word, Well thought
out.
One have some questions out.
One have some questions.
There's nothing worse than whenan interview panel has asked
their questions and they look tothe candidate and say do you
have any questions?
And the candidate goes no, so Ihad.
Well, here's another one.
(33:05):
A candidate was asked a questionfrom the EVP of the health
system Tell me something thathas humbled you.
And the candidate said I can'tthink of it.
So you know, that's when youget a call from the client
straight away saying you're notgoing to believe this.
In this case, you want to havetwo or three questions well
(33:27):
thought out ahead of time.
Now, what can they be?
I have two or three questionswell thought out ahead of time.
Now, what can they be?
Well, what would be yourdefinition of success for the
person that takes this role in ayear?
You know what are you lookingfor.
Tell me what your vision isabout this role.
I mean, that's one of theclassic ones, but it really gets
to the heart of the matter,doesn't it?
Well, we need a strategic plan.
(33:49):
All right, that's fine, weunderstand.
Or we need these metrics to behit, or at least a couple of
them, within X months.
So there's one In terms ofdevelopment for the early
careerists.
It might be a question alongthe line of you know, if this
(34:11):
comes to fruition and I takethis role, I'm still going to
want to continue my continuingeducation.
If you will and talk aboutsomething of that nature, they
can see that you're committed tothe field right.
And another question could bealong the line of the mission or
(34:31):
the strategy in theorganization.
Up to now we've been doing itthis way or we've been
approaching it this way.
Do you think that theorganization will continue with
a strategy going forward?
Anthony Stanowski (34:48):
Yeah, Dennis, one of the questions that I
think is when people are kind ofapproaching any job is salary
and compensation.
Hey, you come in at a student,all right, you get a bump up on
(35:12):
your first job because they dogive you, you know, here's what
the position kind of pays andthe salary range that it's in.
But moving up further, peoplekind of sometimes look at that
and go well, we were paying.
Susie X.
We don't need to pay her fully Y, but we can give her X and a
20% increase, although the rolemight be higher.
(35:33):
How do you kind of work throughan internal candidate, as
they're talking aboutcompensation, so that they can
accurately or fully negotiatethat part based off of what the
role is calling for and whattheir skills kind of bring into
it?
Dennis Kain (35:53):
Well, with social media these days, there's lots
of ways to find out what themarket is for a specific role
and having facts is all softlyheld right.
So let's just profoundly saythat this is a director role and
it has responsibility for thistype of a portfolio of revenues,
(36:17):
expenses and people.
And, like I said, there's a lotof places now where you can
research that and be able toarticulate it back the other way
and share it, say well, in thehomework that I've done, it
appears as if this particulartype of role, this size and all
the rest of it, is earning X andyou put it simply on the table
(36:41):
when you and I back in the daywith the ACHE negotiating
seminar.
I still have the card in mywallet and they gave you a
couple of phrases that you couldsay right and um.
One was you never know until youask.
So that's the more benign side.
(37:03):
The other one is more along theline of where they make an
offer to look straight in theeye and say you got to do better
than that.
That's a a little bit hard, butyou never know until you ask.
The easiest way is to ask thequestion.
You know, hey, I've done somehomework and looked at some of
this and you know.
Perhaps you can advise me.
Or are you finding the samewith your compensation
(37:27):
consultants?
Anthony Stanowski (37:28):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and that's one of
the arguments, too, as to whysometimes growing within your
own organization is harder thanjumping around from place to
place.
And you know, what do you seeas the pros and cons on both
kind of approaches for the youngcareers that's out there?
Dennis Kain (37:49):
It still applies to a certain degree.
It depends on the organization.
For me, um, right now, thereare certain states in the union,
certain towns and certainstates where you're not allowed
to ask what are you thinkingright?
So the question becomes whatare your expectations for the
vote, as a way of you know, withall the gender issues and
(38:12):
everything else, of blastingthrough that type of anchor
holding people back fromwhatever salary equity there
should be.
So the expectation question isreally the key to the matter.
I have done some homework onthis and you know from what I've
seen in the marketplace, youknow I would expect that this
(38:34):
should pay out.
Yeah, absolutely.
Anthony Stanowski (38:38):
Let me just go through the four points again
just to remind everyone findout how you're perceived, learn
everything about the job andinterview process.
Number three balancefamiliarity with professionalism
.
And ending number four, seekout the executive search firm
and have some conversations inthere and understand where it's
(38:59):
going.
So those are the four keypoints.
There's a few others thatyou've kind of talked about in
there.
Well, you know, I thinkinternal advancement is really
critical for people as they kindof move through.
It's while people talk aboutnot wanting to spend their full
careers at any one organization.
If you can show, even whenyou're going to an other
(39:21):
organization, that you've beenpromoted or given additional
responsibilities along the way,it makes you a far more
attractive candidate.
Dennis Kain (39:29):
I agree, my opening act at one hospital in the
health system was for nine years, but I don't think I had the
same job for more than two ofthose years, so it was always
something different and that'sto your whole point.
So there are ways of gettingdifferent experiences and then
leveraging that.
When you're able to discuss itwith others, you know, yes, it
(39:52):
was the same employer, but no,it was a different job.
Anthony Stanowski (39:55):
It's funny, Dennis, mine as well.
My opening act was the sametype of thing.
We went from an administrativeresident to an analyst, to a
senior analyst, to a manager, toa director, and it was
interesting how kind of indifferent departments and you
jump around.
But it's so true, how kind ofin different departments and you
jump around, but it's so true.
There's also something to besaid about the other person who
(40:20):
maybe only spends one or twoyears at an organization and you
look at their resume and it'slike, well, wait a minute, you
were at health system A and thenyou were a physician practice
and within a span of 10 yearsyou jumped five or six different
places.
The negative connotationsaround that, Dennis, do you want
to comment on that?
Dennis Kain (40:35):
Yeah, there's a certain amount of movement
that's expected early and thegoal there, of course, is that
you're learning different things.
I've had folks that say, look,I've got the provider's side on
the hospital.
I wanted to get them throughthe practice, I wanted to get
them through the practice, Iwanted to get the payer side.
So you know touching thedifferent bases, and now I'm
(40:57):
prepared to do the following.
But I did it all on purpose.
So at some point you know, tobe at a place for five years
after having a few stops of youknow two years or so would be
very helpful, to be sure,because other than that it would
get looked at as a job popper.
That does have its own negativeconnotation.
(41:19):
But early on we're not on acareer ladder per se.
We're on a career lattice.
We're always looking to move up, and sometimes even sideways,
but if we want to get additionalexperience for a certain reason
, that was part of our plan.
That's terrific.
Anthony Stanowski (41:35):
And that's a good point, you know.
Back to the salary part issometimes you might actually
take a place where the salary isnot a big jump but you're
learning a whole other set ofskills and experience around
there.
That makes you more valuable inthe long run.
Dennis Kain (41:48):
That's right.
Anthony Stanowski (41:48):
Yeah, dennis, as always, it valuable in the
long run.
That's right.
Yeah, Dennis, as always, it'sso much fun talking to you and I
love.
I know you'll probably be atACHE's Congress in a couple of
weeks, so we'll get to see eachother again there as well.
It's always fun running intoyou and, you know, I think as I
think about someone who reallyhas kind of taken networking to
(42:09):
heart, which is how do you helpother people along the process?
I've always found that with youand myself, and you know,
coming to you for advice andthoughts about different types
of things has always beenhelpful for me.
So again, appreciate your timehere today.
Anything, let me, let me kindof throw one more softball your
(42:29):
way and hopefully you'll hit itout of the park for us as we
approach spring training rightnow for the Major League
Baseball.
The importance of CAMIaccreditation when a student
goes to a graduate program.
You yourself went to a CAMIaccredited program.
How does that help people moveforward in their career?
Dennis Kain (42:53):
Well, it's interesting I've had the
opportunity to serve on advisoryboards for some graduate
programs, including theUniversity of Scranton and Dr
Dan West, and also currentlydown at Johns Hopkins, and so
I'm very impressed with thelevel that the graduate programs
(43:16):
are going to close the loop,that we're teaching this stuff
and we show that all theselessons I'll use that term for a
minute all the things thatwe're trying to get across have
actually been digested, whetherit's here in the academic, in
the classroom, or whether it'sout in the residency, and then
(43:38):
you're utilizing the preceptorsand again keeping, closing that
loop and documenting.
So it's obviously a littledifferent experience than when I
went, but the point is thatthey're always looking to
improve their curriculum, makeit relevant and make sure that
what they're providing is makingits way and the students gain
(44:04):
that experience, they gain thosecredentials and off they go.
Anthony Stanowski (44:10):
Absolutely, dennis.
I think it's that level ofsurety that comes with I'm going
to a good graduate program.
There's always looking attrying to improve and trying to
get better, and then I think themarket kind of responds and
goes hey, we're looking at astudent who's gone through a
leading program and trying tokind of figure out how to move
forward.
The surety that we have withthat, that student, that early
(44:32):
careerist is, is in there.
Dennis Kain (44:33):
so yeah, the academy presentation is very,
very important, dennis, asalways
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