November 7, 2023 • 27 mins
In this episode we welcome Dr. Dan West. Dr. West is a Professor and Past Chair in the Department of Health Administration and Human Resources at The University of Scranton. He is recognized as a global healthcare expert, and he holds faculty appointments at several universities in Central & Eastern Europe. Dr. West has been a hospital CEO, physician practice CEO, and healthcare consultant. He serves or has served on many boards, including as a board member with a health system. He is Board Certified in healthcare management with American College of Healthcare Executives, and certified with the American College of Medical Practice Executives. He is recognized as a Master Fellow with CAHME, chairs CAHME’s Global Advisory Council, and was past Chair of the CAHME Board and CAHME Accreditation Council.
In this episode Dr. West discusses his passion for understanding best practices in healthcare around the globe. Dr. West and Anthony will discuss why understanding what is going on in diverse cultures around the world is vital for future healthcare leaders and educators. They review how CAHME plays a vital role in sharing best practices and raising the bar for all programs ...not just in North America, but worldwide, to advance the quality of healthcare management education.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, Melissa.
Thank you very much for thatintroduction and warm welcome
today to our guest, Dan West.
Dan, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Glad to be with you.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
You know, as I was getting ready for this, I was
thinking, dan, it's been 15years since we met and we met
when I was with AeroMark and wehad started a fellowship program
and I remember giving you acall and kind of describing it
and you contributed one of thefirst fellows to the AeroMark
(00:36):
fellowship part and someonewho's went on to be very
successful and the greatuniversity of Scranton graduate,
neil Pathick, and Neil justrecently completed a video for
us about all the work he's doingat another program at Creighton
University.
So there's got to be some sensefor you of the continuity of
(00:58):
what you bring in your role atthe University of Scranton.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Well, it certainly has been an interesting career
for me, and you mentionedAeroMark and that was a pivotal
point really with some of thethings that we did together.
I mean, aeromark was right upfront in supporting fellowships,
(01:25):
engaging students, reallyseeing the future of health
management education, and so itwas something that I immediately
felt comfortable with when yougave a call.
And yeah, it's true, neilPathick finished his doctorate
and is now doing well in hishealth care career.
(01:48):
So it's always nice to see that.
You know.
You feel real comfortable whenyou know that people have
learned something in there, nowout there contributing to the
profession.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Yeah, making a difference.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Yeah, making a difference.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Dan, let's first go back to your early career, and
you and I have kind of talkedabout this.
I mean, you were a consultant,and do you want to talk a little
bit about that?
I think it's very interestingto kind of hear you were a
practitioner and you weresomeone who really worked in
health care at very high levelsand then moved into academia, so
(02:27):
could you, could you, just givea little brief background on
that for her?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yeah, yeah, I'd be real happy to do that, because
here again, I've been reallygiven some opportunities, which
have panned out quite well.
You know, I was working for aCatholic health care system.
It was a smaller system at thetime, but a new CEO came in and
(02:53):
he was a strong advocate foreducation, and so when it ended
up happening, I got a call fromPenn State University about the
doctoral program and went to myCEO and I said, look, is there
any way I can do this?
Can I take a leave of absenceor whatever?
And so I really, as anassistant vice president, was
(03:17):
able to get back into academiaand focus on health services
research, because it was a PhDprogram and Penn State was what
we call an R1 university.
And then I came back, becausepart of the deal that I was, you
owe us time and you know.
(03:38):
So I came back into the systemat that time, and so the first
thing that I learned was thedaughters of charity.
They were a large healthcaresystem at that time and stayed
with them for a while and thendecided it was time to move into
my own and took anadministrative position with a
(04:03):
publicly traded company calledMedic Incorporated and worked
for them for several years, raninto some real great, sharp,
bright people, and at that timeI get up here into the Scranton
area and the university came tome and said, hey, would you
(04:24):
teach for us part time?
And I had always been teachingon a part time basis with Penn
State.
So I said, sure, no, no problem.
And then they convinced me itwas time to leave the applied
side and go over to the academicside, with an understanding
that I could do console work inhealthcare, and so it was a
(04:48):
great opportunity.
I was able to take my academictraining, I was able to take my
professional training, blendthem together and really launch
a real exciting career.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
When you mentioned Medic, I think back to my days
at Graduate Hospital, when Iworked with one of your peers
very closely, joe Serp, and whoI later also got to work with
later in my career, and I thinkthen our past might have passed
somewhere during that period aswell, only to have met again
(05:25):
like 20, 25 years later.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Exactly that's one of the nice things I like about
healthcare is we often say whatgoes around comes around.
Well, because there's so manygreat people and you get to know
them and you end up attendingeducational programs together
and attending professionalmeetings together, and that's
(05:52):
what's so rewarding about thisprofession.
It's really the people that arein the profession that make it
and make it enjoyable, quitefrankly.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
It's so true.
We talk about presentations.
You and I have been doingseveral, and I think the last
one that we did was with theEuropean Health Management
Association, where we werereally talking about the efforts
to do accreditation for a Camion a global basis.
You've been involved in thiswhole process with Cami and
(06:28):
Global for a long time.
Could you just provide somehistorical kind of reference for
our folks to understand?
Cami's work on a global basisisn't something that we just
started yesterday.
It's something that began along, long time ago.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
And it did.
I mean, it's something Cami'sbeen working at.
But it was comfortable kind ofmoving into the global arena
with Cami because of its missionstatement improving the quality
of health management, education, and that means really globally
.
And you look at the pandemic,you look at other things that
(07:12):
are happening in healthcare andyou say, hey, there really are
no borders here.
We're going to be working incollaborative teams across
countries, and that is the worldtoday.
But it wasn't always easy on thefront end convincing people.
In fact it was you and I puttogether a white paper, a
(07:34):
concept paper, to kind ofencourage the then Cami board to
really give some thought tothis idea of globalization and
with your help and support wewere able to get that concept
approved and then verythoughtfully put together an
approach that used the Camistandards.
(07:56):
And I think that's one of thethings became apparent right in
the front end with Cami is thattheir standards and criteria for
accreditation fit the globalarena, the global village.
It's not just domestic, it'snot just the US.
So Cami's been out in front, Ithink.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
It was interesting because I remember the meetings
that you ran with the GlobalAdvisory Council, where we did
that group which consisted frompeople around the globe who
looked at our standards, and theultimate endpoint was, yeah,
the standards were globallyaround there.
Dan, you did work globally,even prior to Cami.
(08:37):
I mean, and I love when youstart to talk about USAID and
what you've done with programsfrom the former.
You know the Eastern Bloc.
If you would and kind ofworking with them, could you
tell the folks a little bitabout that, those efforts that
you did?
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Yeah, that was actually I'm going to use a
phrase here that was a gift fromHeaven and the World.
Because at the university, thepresident at that time, father
Al Panusko, put out a directive,a newsletter, said, hey, we got
to do more globally.
And I remember going up to hisoffice and I said, father
(09:15):
Panusko?
I said, do you mean what youwrote?
He said, absolutely, I want tosee our university more and for
all globally.
Now that was 30 years ago, butit was at a time where countries
were coming out from underneaththe Soviet Union.
So when you look at Ukraine andPoland, czech Republic, slovak,
(09:37):
hungary, bulgaria, all of thesecountries were coming out from
underneath the Soviet Union andthe United States uses the
United States Agency forInternational Development,
that's their humanitarian arm,and they made a commitment to
Central Eastern Europe to helpthese countries come out and get
(09:57):
themselves established.
And what was amazing?
I mean like one day you're withthe Soviet Union, the next day
you're independent republic.
But what ended up happening?
The electricity was cut off,the international monetary funds
were cut off.
I mean so, these countries.
If it wasn't for USAID and theAmerican International Health
(10:18):
Alliance, well, these countrieswould have not made it.
But early in my career I fell inlove with global health care
management.
I mean, it became apparent tome that there were skills that
could be taught here.
You know that if you workcarefully with countries, again,
(10:40):
a lot of our managementconcepts that have been around
for 50, 60 years could nicely beapplied in other countries if
we put together good educationalprograms and work with them.
And that's what got me soexcited, you know, with it, and
so I've been very fortunate Iuse the word blessed to be able
(11:02):
to work in many countries andfind some incredibly bright
people who kind of see the worldthe same way.
You know.
They just want a better placefor their people.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
And then you've got to introduce me to some of them
and what you can really feelfrom the people that you've got
to meet is that you're friendswith them and I think you're
colleagues, but you have theirbest interest in heart and,
conversely, they also have yourbest interest in heart and you
get that sense from peoplearound the globe of your
(11:35):
reputation and what that means.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Well, thank you for the kind words and you know, it
really is a matter of trustingpeople.
If you trust and respect otherpeople, it gets returned in kind
and that's the fundamentalbuilding blocks, you know, and
it's hard to teach humility,it's hard to teach trust, but
(11:58):
they're the fundamental buildingblocks, you know, for working
with people globally.
But I've been, I've beenfortunate to have a lot of
really great friends.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
No, it really cashes.
Now, you know it wasinteresting because one of the
questions, as you and I werepreparing to go to Georgia,
tbilisi, in Georgia one of thequestions that came to my mind
and was asked at when we werepresenting about, you know, what
can we can do in terms ofaccreditation, how we can help
(12:31):
you, was the question of well,the United States has a lot of
problems with its health caresystem.
You know, arguably the mostexpensive health care system in
the globe and some of theoutcomes aren't necessarily as
good as other countries thatdon't spend as much money.
And the question that wasraised to me was why should we
(12:54):
have a US based company comehere and kind of work with us?
to understand, you know, is oursystem is our education process
kind of accredited, and I thinkyou know you and I both work
through those discussions in theway that it really isn't just a
one way process.
Like you said, it's advanced.
(13:14):
The quality of health caremanagement education it's what
do you do really well?
What do the programs in theUnited States really do well?
And by learning that andsharing best practices all of us
get better.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Yeah, and that's an excellent point, anthony,
because we all can learntogether and people want to be
involved with the United Statesbecause, I mean, we've got our
problems but at the same timewe've got a lot of good things
going on and we do a lot of goodresearch and people want to
(13:49):
understand that and they knowthat the quality of our
education is a high standard.
And so to be able to work withus, to be able to work together
and collaborate together, is astrong card in working with
(14:12):
people.
If they know you're not tryingto push on them our system and I
don't think we've everapproached it that way, we've
kind of listened and then talkedabout where quality of health
management education fits and Ithink if you approach it that
way and they know you're willingto work with people with other
(14:36):
institutions, over time you candevelop a very comfortable
relationship.
And I think that's what youwere able to do when you went to
Georgia dock with people there.
And I think that what we havewith Cami are good standards and
that we'd work with them andCami's built things to make that
(14:59):
possible the mentorship circle,the idea of collaborating with
other people.
That's all part of Cami andthat's what makes it attractive,
in my opinion.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
And when you think about Cami and where we were and
again, dan, this is before yourmy time, but 40, 50 years ago,
at the start of Cami, back in1968, when you looked at what
the Kellogg Foundationinvestment in Cami wanted us to
do, which was to really be aglobal accreditor, yeah, and
(15:40):
they really had.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
I mean, if you think about the foresight they had
going back 40 years, 50 years.
But some of the people at thattime that were in leadership
positions, I think, recognizedthat countries have got to work
together and one of the sectorsto work together is healthcare,
(16:04):
because it's very transportable,number one and no matter where
you go you need healthcare.
And there was an earlyrecognition of, hey, future
leaders need skills.
I mean, just because you're adoctor or an economist doesn't
(16:24):
mean you can do it.
You really.
They understood the importanceof developing skills and now we
focus very heavily oncompetencies.
But skills and attitudes andknowledge is all part of
competencies.
And Cami's model is excellentin that respect because it I
(16:45):
mean, quite frankly, it focuseson the necessary competencies in
the area of leadership, in thearea of governance, in the area
of quality, in the area ofoperations management.
So the Cami model is veryattractive because as people go
through and look at competencies, they can see that it's right
(17:07):
on.
It's definitely a right onapproach.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
When COVID hit, I think it became especially true
at how these competencies wereuniversal and how we need to
work together.
I mean, what was fascinatingwhen COVID occurred?
You saw how countriescooperated around the globe to
kind of share information andkind of make things happen with
(17:37):
each other and learn from eachother.
And then Cami, we did a whitepaper called competencies around
the global impact of COVID-19and I kind of examined that.
For anyone listening out thereyou can go on to camiorg,
backslash white dash papers,white papers, and you read that
(17:58):
white paper.
So, dan, let me go back.
So I think you know there'salways been discussions at Cami
around global and where do wekind of need to move.
But it was research that youwere involved with with
(18:19):
sponsored by the AirmarkCharitable Fund, that really
kind of focused on developing astrategy for Cami that would
make sense and move us forward.
Do you want to talk about thata little?
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Sure, I'd like to, because I think it's an
important again, anotherimportant piece of Cami and that
is, you know, we've tried touse research, we've tried to
develop research, we've tried toengage with our Cami accredited
programs to kind of understandwhat's going on, you know, to
improve what we're doing.
(18:57):
So we were, quite fortunate,Airmark stepped up two times
with grants that enabled us tolook at over 20, some countries
globally, to kind of understand,you know, what was happening in
the area of health management,education.
And how did that relate to themarket in those countries?
(19:21):
And, you know, did they havethe infrastructure?
Was there this relationshipbetween university education and
the market?
And we found that in manycountries, yes, that's the case,
but in some other countries, no, it wasn't.
But it was informative.
And then, you know, we also didthe study where we looked at our
(19:44):
Cami accredited programs to say, OK, what's going on?
And we found that, you know,somewhere in the neighborhood of
30, some percent were activelyinvolved globally.
And by actively involved I meansome had study abroad programs,
some were teaching courses,there were faculty who were
doing research between theuniversities, there were student
(20:08):
exchange programs going.
Now we really found that ourCami programs, accredited
programs had a lot going on andthat Cami research enabled us to
kind of reach out.
In fact, there's been a recentstudy done with AUPHA, which
really borrowed what we had doneand then tried to update it and
(20:31):
again, again kind of found someof the same conclusions that we
found back in 2011, 2012, which, again, Cami has those studies
on its website and people can goto them and really see what we
were trying to look at.
But that was some of thefoundational research that
(20:52):
helped us move forward withglobal accreditation.
Yeah it was an landmark.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Yeah, and the interesting part about all that
was it wasn't a high priced,multi-million dollar market on
campaign worldwide.
It was relationships that wejust kind of worked to kind of
build the process, and we wentfrom two programs that were
interested in us about becomingglobal credit University of
(21:21):
Georgia and StrathmoreUniversity in Africa and Nairobi
and we went from those two tonow I think it's been something
like 40, around 40 programs thathave expressed some interest.
Some of them have a site visitschedule coming up in the spring
, which you are chairing, andsome are in candidacy and some
(21:42):
are still applying.
But it's been interesting towatch that grow.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Yeah, and you know, when we first when I say we were
with Cami and the board and youand other folks when we got
involved, we realized we had tobe strategic, we realized we had
to be financially responsibleas to how we were going to do it
, and I think there was also arealization, even to this day,
(22:08):
that this is going to take timeto develop and mature.
And it's happening little bylittle and, as we know, once you
start in a country and the wordspreads, then everyone else
wants to know well, how do youdo it?
How can we get involved?
And I think, cami, through thecandidacy program that they have
(22:31):
, it's fantastic because itgives you a way of working with
people, explaining criteria,educating faculty as to what
they're going to need to be ableto do, and that is a very
beautiful piece with Cami thatthey're willing to teach and
(22:52):
work with people to kind ofunderstand and develop this self
study.
That's really needed.
A key piece of Cami.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
And that will, when you kind of look at what Cami
does and our standards and theprograms that are Cami
accredited, that's important tothe students and that helps them
kind of move forward.
So, dan, let me have you justkind of focus on the students.
So if I'm a student and I'mgoing, hey, yeah, I really want
to get involved globally, I wantto look outside my boundaries.
(23:25):
What should a student do?
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Well, I think there's several steps.
Number one they should go inand look at accredited programs
because we know and thisdiscussion is pointing out
people, faculty are involved.
So there's a high probabilityyou'd be able to find a
university where people areinterested in global healthcare
(23:50):
management.
That's step number one.
Step number two there arethings you can do in your
graduate studies.
With study abroad programs youcan actually cross over Cami
programs, know one another andso many times we do a lot of
(24:13):
study abroad in our program.
But I have other colleagues inFlorida, outside of Pennsylvania
, that call and say, hey, I gota student really wants to travel
abroad.
Then they take your course and Isay, of course you can, because
I know that they'll accept ourcourse, work Cami accredited
program elsewhere.
So that's another thing you cando Really letting people know
(24:39):
that you're interested inglobalization and you want to
find ways.
I mean, this is where academicand career advising comes into
play, where you can sit withsomebody and say, hey, let's
explore what the opportunitiesare.
And I know that the UnitedNations, the European Union, who
(25:04):
, a lot of internationalprograms are looking to hire
people with health managementbackgrounds to run projects
around the world.
So you can immediately begin tolook at that and then most
programs provide some type offieldwork.
You can do an internship or youcould look for a fellowship.
(25:25):
For example, joint Commissionjust offered that fellowship
opportunity Big because JointCommission has Joint Commission
International.
But I think the starting pointis letting someone know that
you're really interested andthen begin to listen to faculty
(25:45):
who walks the talk in theclassroom and go see them.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Yeah, Now good point about the Joint Commission
Fellowship, because when weworked with Dr Perlin and we
worked with the team at JointCommission to create this Cami
Joint Commission fellowship forsustainability, quality and
safety, one of the things thatthey talked about was
globalization.
That the fellow will reallyneed to understand what the
(26:16):
Joint Commission does outside ofthe United States as well as
inside, and in fact I thinktheir concept is to provide some
level of experience in theretoo.
So it's great, I think, aboutDan.
You actually contributed toCami One of your students, as
(26:36):
are the Cami Global Fellow atone point, which brought a level
of experience and breadth toour organization as we were
looking at continuing thisexpansion in global as well.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
And that was an important move and again, I
think it was with yourleadership entity.
You took on a fellow because wethought that that could be
again a piece to help move usforward.
So it started with our market,started with a fellowship, it
(27:12):
started with a concept paperthat you sold to the board to
get started, in fact, that boardmeetings continually support
this whole idea of globalizationand also, importantly, we're
willing to travel, to go thereto see, to listen, to hear, and
(27:34):
I think that speaks highly ofyour leadership.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Thank you and your partnership and your partnership
.
You know I want to you know, aswe kind of end.
I want to end with a quote, andit's from Global Accreditation
Strategies in Health ManagementEducation.
The quote begins a borderlessworld in higher education
provides mobility of student andfaculty to enhance scientific
(28:01):
research, to redesignundergraduate, postgraduate and
doctoral education.
Within this larger context ofglobalization, there's an
opportunity for existingaccrediting organizations to
provide accreditation activitiesthat impact the current and
future development ofprofessional health care leaders
(28:22):
and quality of care, and Ireally think that sums up of
what we're trying to accomplishin there.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
It is.
It fits perfectly with themission of CAMI in the area of
health management education,because I know we realize, and I
think you know students willrealize very quickly how
important it is to be in agraduate program that's teaching
(28:48):
the skills, the knowledge, thecompetencies and, I might also
say, addressing values that aregoing to be really important
later on.
Honesty, humility, I mean theseare the things we talked about
earlier today, and CAMIaccredited programs bring that
to students.
(29:09):
But the opportunities are justexpanding and almost every
health care system is some waytouching upon globalization.
I mean, if you're intotelehealth and many of our
systems are actually providingmanagement to programs outside,
the United States, own hospitalsoutside and that's in what I
(29:33):
call mainline health care, thatpharmaceutical and infectious
disease surveillance programsthat we get with CDC.
I mean it's all part of thisglobalization, this bigger
community that we're all part of.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Yeah, absolutely Well , dan, thank you very much for
your time today.
I think this was again afascinating review of why global
accreditation is important andwhy understanding what's going
on in different cultures aroundthe world are important for the
future leaders of health care.
So, dan, again thank you verymuch for coming today.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Thank you for having me and thank you for letting me
talk about something that's nearand dear to my heart, called
globalization, the health caremanagement.
Thank you.
Well, Melissa.
Thank you very much for thatintroduction and warm welcome
today to our guest, Dan West.
Dan, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Glad to be with you.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
You know, as I was getting ready for this, I was
thinking, dan, it's been 15years since we met and we met
when I was with AeroMark and wehad started a fellowship program
and I remember giving you acall and kind of describing it
and you contributed one of thefirst fellows to the AeroMark
(00:36):
fellowship part and someonewho's went on to be very
successful and the greatuniversity of Scranton graduate,
neil Pathick, and Neil justrecently completed a video for
us about all the work he's doingat another program at Creighton
University.
So there's got to be some sensefor you of the continuity of
(00:58):
what you bring in your role atthe University of Scranton.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Well, it certainly has been an interesting career
for me, and you mentionedAeroMark and that was a pivotal
point really with some of thethings that we did together.
I mean, aeromark was right upfront in supporting fellowships,
(01:25):
engaging students, reallyseeing the future of health
management education, and so itwas something that I immediately
felt comfortable with when yougave a call.
And yeah, it's true, neilPathick finished his doctorate
and is now doing well in hishealth care career.
(01:48):
So it's always nice to see that.
You know.
You feel real comfortable whenyou know that people have
learned something in there, nowout there contributing to the
profession.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Yeah, making a difference.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Yeah, making a difference.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Dan, let's first go back to your early career, and
you and I have kind of talkedabout this.
I mean, you were a consultant,and do you want to talk a little
bit about that?
I think it's very interestingto kind of hear you were a
practitioner and you weresomeone who really worked in
health care at very high levelsand then moved into academia, so
(02:27):
could you, could you, just givea little brief background on
that for her?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yeah, yeah, I'd be real happy to do that, because
here again, I've been reallygiven some opportunities, which
have panned out quite well.
You know, I was working for aCatholic health care system.
It was a smaller system at thetime, but a new CEO came in and
(02:53):
he was a strong advocate foreducation, and so when it ended
up happening, I got a call fromPenn State University about the
doctoral program and went to myCEO and I said, look, is there
any way I can do this?
Can I take a leave of absenceor whatever?
And so I really, as anassistant vice president, was
(03:17):
able to get back into academiaand focus on health services
research, because it was a PhDprogram and Penn State was what
we call an R1 university.
And then I came back, becausepart of the deal that I was, you
owe us time and you know.
(03:38):
So I came back into the systemat that time, and so the first
thing that I learned was thedaughters of charity.
They were a large healthcaresystem at that time and stayed
with them for a while and thendecided it was time to move into
my own and took anadministrative position with a
(04:03):
publicly traded company calledMedic Incorporated and worked
for them for several years, raninto some real great, sharp,
bright people, and at that timeI get up here into the Scranton
area and the university came tome and said, hey, would you
(04:24):
teach for us part time?
And I had always been teachingon a part time basis with Penn
State.
So I said, sure, no, no problem.
And then they convinced me itwas time to leave the applied
side and go over to the academicside, with an understanding
that I could do console work inhealthcare, and so it was a
(04:48):
great opportunity.
I was able to take my academictraining, I was able to take my
professional training, blendthem together and really launch
a real exciting career.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
When you mentioned Medic, I think back to my days
at Graduate Hospital, when Iworked with one of your peers
very closely, joe Serp, and whoI later also got to work with
later in my career, and I thinkthen our past might have passed
somewhere during that period aswell, only to have met again
(05:25):
like 20, 25 years later.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Exactly that's one of the nice things I like about
healthcare is we often say whatgoes around comes around.
Well, because there's so manygreat people and you get to know
them and you end up attendingeducational programs together
and attending professionalmeetings together, and that's
(05:52):
what's so rewarding about thisprofession.
It's really the people that arein the profession that make it
and make it enjoyable, quitefrankly.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
It's so true.
We talk about presentations.
You and I have been doingseveral, and I think the last
one that we did was with theEuropean Health Management
Association, where we werereally talking about the efforts
to do accreditation for a Camion a global basis.
You've been involved in thiswhole process with Cami and
(06:28):
Global for a long time.
Could you just provide somehistorical kind of reference for
our folks to understand?
Cami's work on a global basisisn't something that we just
started yesterday.
It's something that began along, long time ago.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
And it did.
I mean, it's something Cami'sbeen working at.
But it was comfortable kind ofmoving into the global arena
with Cami because of its missionstatement improving the quality
of health management, education, and that means really globally
.
And you look at the pandemic,you look at other things that
(07:12):
are happening in healthcare andyou say, hey, there really are
no borders here.
We're going to be working incollaborative teams across
countries, and that is the worldtoday.
But it wasn't always easy on thefront end convincing people.
In fact it was you and I puttogether a white paper, a
(07:34):
concept paper, to kind ofencourage the then Cami board to
really give some thought tothis idea of globalization and
with your help and support wewere able to get that concept
approved and then verythoughtfully put together an
approach that used the Camistandards.
(07:56):
And I think that's one of thethings became apparent right in
the front end with Cami is thattheir standards and criteria for
accreditation fit the globalarena, the global village.
It's not just domestic, it'snot just the US.
So Cami's been out in front, Ithink.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
It was interesting because I remember the meetings
that you ran with the GlobalAdvisory Council, where we did
that group which consisted frompeople around the globe who
looked at our standards, and theultimate endpoint was, yeah,
the standards were globallyaround there.
Dan, you did work globally,even prior to Cami.
(08:37):
I mean, and I love when youstart to talk about USAID and
what you've done with programsfrom the former.
You know the Eastern Bloc.
If you would and kind ofworking with them, could you
tell the folks a little bitabout that, those efforts that
you did?
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Yeah, that was actually I'm going to use a
phrase here that was a gift fromHeaven and the World.
Because at the university, thepresident at that time, father
Al Panusko, put out a directive,a newsletter, said, hey, we got
to do more globally.
And I remember going up to hisoffice and I said, father
(09:15):
Panusko?
I said, do you mean what youwrote?
He said, absolutely, I want tosee our university more and for
all globally.
Now that was 30 years ago, butit was at a time where countries
were coming out from underneaththe Soviet Union.
So when you look at Ukraine andPoland, czech Republic, slovak,
(09:37):
hungary, bulgaria, all of thesecountries were coming out from
underneath the Soviet Union andthe United States uses the
United States Agency forInternational Development,
that's their humanitarian arm,and they made a commitment to
Central Eastern Europe to helpthese countries come out and get
(09:57):
themselves established.
And what was amazing?
I mean like one day you're withthe Soviet Union, the next day
you're independent republic.
But what ended up happening?
The electricity was cut off,the international monetary funds
were cut off.
I mean so, these countries.
If it wasn't for USAID and theAmerican International Health
(10:18):
Alliance, well, these countrieswould have not made it.
But early in my career I fell inlove with global health care
management.
I mean, it became apparent tome that there were skills that
could be taught here.
You know that if you workcarefully with countries, again,
(10:40):
a lot of our managementconcepts that have been around
for 50, 60 years could nicely beapplied in other countries if
we put together good educationalprograms and work with them.
And that's what got me soexcited, you know, with it, and
so I've been very fortunate Iuse the word blessed to be able
(11:02):
to work in many countries andfind some incredibly bright
people who kind of see the worldthe same way.
You know.
They just want a better placefor their people.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
And then you've got to introduce me to some of them
and what you can really feelfrom the people that you've got
to meet is that you're friendswith them and I think you're
colleagues, but you have theirbest interest in heart and,
conversely, they also have yourbest interest in heart and you
get that sense from peoplearound the globe of your
(11:35):
reputation and what that means.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Well, thank you for the kind words and you know, it
really is a matter of trustingpeople.
If you trust and respect otherpeople, it gets returned in kind
and that's the fundamentalbuilding blocks, you know, and
it's hard to teach humility,it's hard to teach trust, but
(11:58):
they're the fundamental buildingblocks, you know, for working
with people globally.
But I've been, I've beenfortunate to have a lot of
really great friends.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
No, it really cashes.
Now, you know it wasinteresting because one of the
questions, as you and I werepreparing to go to Georgia,
tbilisi, in Georgia one of thequestions that came to my mind
and was asked at when we werepresenting about, you know, what
can we can do in terms ofaccreditation, how we can help
(12:31):
you, was the question of well,the United States has a lot of
problems with its health caresystem.
You know, arguably the mostexpensive health care system in
the globe and some of theoutcomes aren't necessarily as
good as other countries thatdon't spend as much money.
And the question that wasraised to me was why should we
(12:54):
have a US based company comehere and kind of work with us?
to understand, you know, is oursystem is our education process
kind of accredited, and I thinkyou know you and I both work
through those discussions in theway that it really isn't just a
one way process.
Like you said, it's advanced.
(13:14):
The quality of health caremanagement education it's what
do you do really well?
What do the programs in theUnited States really do well?
And by learning that andsharing best practices all of us
get better.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Yeah, and that's an excellent point, anthony,
because we all can learntogether and people want to be
involved with the United Statesbecause, I mean, we've got our
problems but at the same timewe've got a lot of good things
going on and we do a lot of goodresearch and people want to
(13:49):
understand that and they knowthat the quality of our
education is a high standard.
And so to be able to work withus, to be able to work together
and collaborate together, is astrong card in working with
(14:12):
people.
If they know you're not tryingto push on them our system and I
don't think we've everapproached it that way, we've
kind of listened and then talkedabout where quality of health
management education fits and Ithink if you approach it that
way and they know you're willingto work with people with other
(14:36):
institutions, over time you candevelop a very comfortable
relationship.
And I think that's what youwere able to do when you went to
Georgia dock with people there.
And I think that what we havewith Cami are good standards and
that we'd work with them andCami's built things to make that
(14:59):
possible the mentorship circle,the idea of collaborating with
other people.
That's all part of Cami andthat's what makes it attractive,
in my opinion.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
And when you think about Cami and where we were and
again, dan, this is before yourmy time, but 40, 50 years ago,
at the start of Cami, back in1968, when you looked at what
the Kellogg Foundationinvestment in Cami wanted us to
do, which was to really be aglobal accreditor, yeah, and
(15:40):
they really had.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
I mean, if you think about the foresight they had
going back 40 years, 50 years.
But some of the people at thattime that were in leadership
positions, I think, recognizedthat countries have got to work
together and one of the sectorsto work together is healthcare,
(16:04):
because it's very transportable,number one and no matter where
you go you need healthcare.
And there was an earlyrecognition of, hey, future
leaders need skills.
I mean, just because you're adoctor or an economist doesn't
(16:24):
mean you can do it.
You really.
They understood the importanceof developing skills and now we
focus very heavily oncompetencies.
But skills and attitudes andknowledge is all part of
competencies.
And Cami's model is excellentin that respect because it I
(16:45):
mean, quite frankly, it focuseson the necessary competencies in
the area of leadership, in thearea of governance, in the area
of quality, in the area ofoperations management.
So the Cami model is veryattractive because as people go
through and look at competencies, they can see that it's right
(17:07):
on.
It's definitely a right onapproach.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
When COVID hit, I think it became especially true
at how these competencies wereuniversal and how we need to
work together.
I mean, what was fascinatingwhen COVID occurred?
You saw how countriescooperated around the globe to
kind of share information andkind of make things happen with
(17:37):
each other and learn from eachother.
And then Cami, we did a whitepaper called competencies around
the global impact of COVID-19and I kind of examined that.
For anyone listening out thereyou can go on to camiorg,
backslash white dash papers,white papers, and you read that
(17:58):
white paper.
So, dan, let me go back.
So I think you know there'salways been discussions at Cami
around global and where do wekind of need to move.
But it was research that youwere involved with with
(18:19):
sponsored by the AirmarkCharitable Fund, that really
kind of focused on developing astrategy for Cami that would
make sense and move us forward.
Do you want to talk about thata little?
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Sure, I'd like to, because I think it's an
important again, anotherimportant piece of Cami and that
is, you know, we've tried touse research, we've tried to
develop research, we've tried toengage with our Cami accredited
programs to kind of understandwhat's going on, you know, to
improve what we're doing.
(18:57):
So we were, quite fortunate,Airmark stepped up two times
with grants that enabled us tolook at over 20, some countries
globally, to kind of understand,you know, what was happening in
the area of health management,education.
And how did that relate to themarket in those countries?
(19:21):
And, you know, did they havethe infrastructure?
Was there this relationshipbetween university education and
the market?
And we found that in manycountries, yes, that's the case,
but in some other countries, no, it wasn't.
But it was informative.
And then, you know, we also didthe study where we looked at our
(19:44):
Cami accredited programs to say, OK, what's going on?
And we found that, you know,somewhere in the neighborhood of
30, some percent were activelyinvolved globally.
And by actively involved I meansome had study abroad programs,
some were teaching courses,there were faculty who were
doing research between theuniversities, there were student
(20:08):
exchange programs going.
Now we really found that ourCami programs, accredited
programs had a lot going on andthat Cami research enabled us to
kind of reach out.
In fact, there's been a recentstudy done with AUPHA, which
really borrowed what we had doneand then tried to update it and
(20:31):
again, again kind of found someof the same conclusions that we
found back in 2011, 2012, which, again, Cami has those studies
on its website and people can goto them and really see what we
were trying to look at.
But that was some of thefoundational research that
(20:52):
helped us move forward withglobal accreditation.
Yeah it was an landmark.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Yeah, and the interesting part about all that
was it wasn't a high priced,multi-million dollar market on
campaign worldwide.
It was relationships that wejust kind of worked to kind of
build the process, and we wentfrom two programs that were
interested in us about becomingglobal credit University of
(21:21):
Georgia and StrathmoreUniversity in Africa and Nairobi
and we went from those two tonow I think it's been something
like 40, around 40 programs thathave expressed some interest.
Some of them have a site visitschedule coming up in the spring
, which you are chairing, andsome are in candidacy and some
(21:42):
are still applying.
But it's been interesting towatch that grow.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Yeah, and you know, when we first when I say we were
with Cami and the board and youand other folks when we got
involved, we realized we had tobe strategic, we realized we had
to be financially responsibleas to how we were going to do it
, and I think there was also arealization, even to this day,
(22:08):
that this is going to take timeto develop and mature.
And it's happening little bylittle and, as we know, once you
start in a country and the wordspreads, then everyone else
wants to know well, how do youdo it?
How can we get involved?
And I think, cami, through thecandidacy program that they have
(22:31):
, it's fantastic because itgives you a way of working with
people, explaining criteria,educating faculty as to what
they're going to need to be ableto do, and that is a very
beautiful piece with Cami thatthey're willing to teach and
(22:52):
work with people to kind ofunderstand and develop this self
study.
That's really needed.
A key piece of Cami.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
And that will, when you kind of look at what Cami
does and our standards and theprograms that are Cami
accredited, that's important tothe students and that helps them
kind of move forward.
So, dan, let me have you justkind of focus on the students.
So if I'm a student and I'mgoing, hey, yeah, I really want
to get involved globally, I wantto look outside my boundaries.
(23:25):
What should a student do?
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Well, I think there's several steps.
Number one they should go inand look at accredited programs
because we know and thisdiscussion is pointing out
people, faculty are involved.
So there's a high probabilityyou'd be able to find a
university where people areinterested in global healthcare
(23:50):
management.
That's step number one.
Step number two there arethings you can do in your
graduate studies.
With study abroad programs youcan actually cross over Cami
programs, know one another andso many times we do a lot of
(24:13):
study abroad in our program.
But I have other colleagues inFlorida, outside of Pennsylvania
, that call and say, hey, I gota student really wants to travel
abroad.
Then they take your course and Isay, of course you can, because
I know that they'll accept ourcourse, work Cami accredited
program elsewhere.
So that's another thing you cando Really letting people know
(24:39):
that you're interested inglobalization and you want to
find ways.
I mean, this is where academicand career advising comes into
play, where you can sit withsomebody and say, hey, let's
explore what the opportunitiesare.
And I know that the UnitedNations, the European Union, who
(25:04):
, a lot of internationalprograms are looking to hire
people with health managementbackgrounds to run projects
around the world.
So you can immediately begin tolook at that and then most
programs provide some type offieldwork.
You can do an internship or youcould look for a fellowship.
(25:25):
For example, joint Commissionjust offered that fellowship
opportunity Big because JointCommission has Joint Commission
International.
But I think the starting pointis letting someone know that
you're really interested andthen begin to listen to faculty
(25:45):
who walks the talk in theclassroom and go see them.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Yeah, Now good point about the Joint Commission
Fellowship, because when weworked with Dr Perlin and we
worked with the team at JointCommission to create this Cami
Joint Commission fellowship forsustainability, quality and
safety, one of the things thatthey talked about was
globalization.
That the fellow will reallyneed to understand what the
(26:16):
Joint Commission does outside ofthe United States as well as
inside, and in fact I thinktheir concept is to provide some
level of experience in theretoo.
So it's great, I think, aboutDan.
You actually contributed toCami One of your students, as
(26:36):
are the Cami Global Fellow atone point, which brought a level
of experience and breadth toour organization as we were
looking at continuing thisexpansion in global as well.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
And that was an important move and again, I
think it was with yourleadership entity.
You took on a fellow because wethought that that could be
again a piece to help move usforward.
So it started with our market,started with a fellowship, it
(27:12):
started with a concept paperthat you sold to the board to
get started, in fact, that boardmeetings continually support
this whole idea of globalizationand also, importantly, we're
willing to travel, to go thereto see, to listen, to hear, and
(27:34):
I think that speaks highly ofyour leadership.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Thank you and your partnership and your partnership
.
You know I want to you know, aswe kind of end.
I want to end with a quote, andit's from Global Accreditation
Strategies in Health ManagementEducation.
The quote begins a borderlessworld in higher education
provides mobility of student andfaculty to enhance scientific
(28:01):
research, to redesignundergraduate, postgraduate and
doctoral education.
Within this larger context ofglobalization, there's an
opportunity for existingaccrediting organizations to
provide accreditation activitiesthat impact the current and
future development ofprofessional health care leaders
(28:22):
and quality of care, and Ireally think that sums up of
what we're trying to accomplishin there.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
It is.
It fits perfectly with themission of CAMI in the area of
health management education,because I know we realize, and I
think you know students willrealize very quickly how
important it is to be in agraduate program that's teaching
(28:48):
the skills, the knowledge, thecompetencies and, I might also
say, addressing values that aregoing to be really important
later on.
Honesty, humility, I mean theseare the things we talked about
earlier today, and CAMIaccredited programs bring that
to students.
(29:09):
But the opportunities are justexpanding and almost every
health care system is some waytouching upon globalization.
I mean, if you're intotelehealth and many of our
systems are actually providingmanagement to programs outside,
the United States, own hospitalsoutside and that's in what I
(29:33):
call mainline health care, thatpharmaceutical and infectious
disease surveillance programsthat we get with CDC.
I mean it's all part of thisglobalization, this bigger
community that we're all part of.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Yeah, absolutely Well , dan, thank you very much for
your time today.
I think this was again afascinating review of why global
accreditation is important andwhy understanding what's going
on in different cultures aroundthe world are important for the
future leaders of health care.
So, dan, again thank you verymuch for coming today.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Thank you for having me and thank you for letting me
talk about something that's nearand dear to my heart, called
globalization, the health caremanagement.
Thank you.
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