August 20, 2024 • 59 mins
In this episode, we dive into the essentials of branding with expert Howie Chan, founder of Healthy Brand Consulting. The discussion covers the critical role of understanding and managing one's brand, both for companies and individuals. Howie shares insights from his journey from biomedical engineering to branding, offers practical advice for building and differentiating a brand, and highlights the importance of company values and leadership in navigating external events. Whether you're responsible for your company's brand or interested in personal branding, this episode provides valuable lessons on aligning brand strategy with business goals and values.
00:00 Introduction to Branding and Guest Speaker
02:28 Howie Chan's Journey from Biomedical Engineering to Branding
04:10 Field Experience and Transition to Marketing
09:06 Understanding and Managing a Brand
12:40 Brand Differentiation and Value
16:50 Challenges in Brand Management
23:00 Branding in the Medical Device Industry
31:02 Navigating Social Issues in the Marketplace
32:36 The Importance of Self-Awareness for Companies
33:37 Aligning Company Actions with Core Values
34:52 The Cost of Silence vs. Taking a Stand
35:33 Timeliness and Crisis Communication
36:56 Personal Beliefs vs. Company Beliefs
43:10 The Role of Leadership in Decision Making
48:05 Applying Company Branding Lessons to Personal Branding
53:35 Howie’s Insights on Branding and Consulting
57:12 Final Thoughts and Takeaways
Links from this episode:
- Howie Chan LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/howiechaniam/
- HealthyBrand Consulting https://www.healthybrandconsulting.com/
Connect with Mastering Medical Device:
- Website: https://www.masteringmedicaldevice.com
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/mastering-medical-device
- Patrick Kothe LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/patrick-kothe
- Patrick Kothe Twitter: https://twitter.com/patrickkothe
Support the show for as little as $3/month: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1286645/support
Thanks for listening!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Pat Kothe (00:31):
Welcome! Branding is something many people have an
opinion on, but very few peopleare expert in.
Every company and every one ofus have a reputation, which is
commonly referred to as brand.
It can be of great benefit orabsolutely crush us.
(00:54):
Understanding who we are, whatothers think about us, and where
we want to go is critical if wewant our brand to work for us.
Our guest today is Howie Chan,an expert in branding and the
founder and principal brandstrategist at Healthy Brand
Consulting.
He has over two decades ofexperience building brands in
(01:17):
healthcare, across biotech,Pharma, Medtech, provider, payer
and digital health for startupsand fortune 500 companies.
Prior to founding Healthy BrandConsulting, he was the managing
director of brand strategy atReal Chemistry and contributed
in marketing roles at PhillipsHealthcare and Medtronic.
(01:39):
He's also an executive coach whohelps leaders with their
personal brand, as well as hostsa podcast called The Healthy
Brand Podcast.
He's on a mission to help 1million people live their
version of legendary.
In our conversation, Howieshares his early career
experiences in biomedicalengineering, his realization of
(02:02):
his strengths in marketing andbranding, and how his
experiences in industry shapedhis expertise, the essence of
branding, The importance ofalignment between a company's
values and its brandingstrategy, the significance of
leadership in managing a brand,and the impact of external
(02:24):
events on company branding.
Here's our conversation.
So Howie, I got to Ask a seriousquestion to get this thing
kicked off.
How does a biomedical engineerend up becoming a branding
expert?
Howie Chan (02:39):
That's a fantastic question.
Well, I, I really follow mycareer journey based on
curiosity.
I think one of the earliestmemories of getting on the
journey was, I really don't knowwhat I want to do.
I don't know what I want to dowhen I grow up.
And so for me, it was alwaysabout let's keep moving towards
things that interest me, thingsthat make me curious and move
(03:02):
away from things that I don'tlike.
So I did start my career inbiomedical engineering.
I was actually doing a lot oflab work.
I was in the lab.
I was in, preclinical labs aswell, doing a lot of research
work, like hardcore researchwork.
Pat Kothe (03:16):
Was that something that was, your, vision?
Or was this, something that youthought your parents wanted you
to do?
How did you come to that, thatwork?
Howie Chan (03:25):
Yeah, great question too.
I always wanted to be aphysician.
But
howie--he-his-_1_11-02-2023_1 (03:30):
I
Howie Chan (03:30):
never get, I didn't get into med school in
Singapore.
I grew up in Singapore.
So when I came to the U S it wasdoing pre med.
So I was in pre med, I was doingbiomedical engineering and I met
this professor.
He was an engineering professorand he was just a fantastic guy.
And so he took me under his wingand we just started doing
experiments and turns out he wasdoing part time.
(03:54):
professorship, but also workingat Medtronic at the same time.
So he basically just brought mein because he, we had a good
working relationship and it justwent from there.
I just started working for them.
So it was a very natural sort ofprogression from, school to
work.
Pat Kothe (04:11):
So at some point in time you thought, geez, there's
another world out there, outsideof the lab.
What was that all about?
Howie Chan (04:18):
I really real, I realized that man, I can do this
work, but I don't think I can bereally great at it.
I don't think I can come up witha cure for something or get
published in a ton of papers.
It was just, I didn't feel thatspark, you know, Pat.
So what happened was I wanted tojust see how this all works out
(04:40):
in the field.
So how does it work?
How do all these brillianttechnologies get sold, get
talked about, get used?
So I landed a job working in thefield.
And I think a lot of yourlisteners can probably...
surmise field experience in themedtech world.
It's always great.
(05:00):
It's great to have experience inthe field because you really
understand what happens when therubber meets the road.
You can see a ton of things, youcan try and design a lot of
products, but how does it getused?
So I did that for a coupleyears, and then naturally took
that...
experience back in house.
truthfully it was gettingdangerous.
(05:20):
I was driving so much.
Pat, this was the days beforeBluetooth Before Google Maps.
I had this like huge brick palmtrio thing I was trying to you
know mess with get on phonecalls, you know those days It
wasn't as sexy and slick and Ifound myself just driving so
much I covered for salesterritory and some days I was
(05:42):
driving five hours just to havea half an hour chat with the
doc.
So at some point I was like, Ithink I'm going to get into
trouble here.
as I'm driving so much.
So I started working in themarketing world and that just
kind of broke open this wholeworld for me, looking at product
marketing, introducing productsinto the market, but the game
(06:03):
changer, we realized that mypath forward was getting into
brand was actually working onthe agency side.
So after a decade.
on the industry side, I worked,another decade on the agency
side, and that's where it, if Ifound love with the world of
brand.
So it's really trying to launchcompanies.
I was working on all sorts ofdifferent problems, but
(06:26):
essentially all acrosshealthcare.
talking about medtech to digitalhealth, to providers, to payers,
pharma companies, biotechs.
At various stages in theirjourney, right?
So whether it's launching for anIPO, whether it's preparing to
get acquired, whether it'srepositioning a huge fortune 100
brand.
(06:46):
So I've done so many things, butone thing for sure is it's so
much quicker.
And so much faster turn thanbeing in the company itself.
As it takes a long time tolaunch a product.
So as a product marketer waitingfor something to launch, dude,
that takes a while.
Pat Kothe (07:02):
Yeah.
Howie Chan (07:03):
So I realized and recognized, I probably have some
ADHD going on, Pat.
So managing a bunch of projectsat the same time was really my
sweet spot.
And I fell in love with itinstantly.
Pat Kothe (07:17):
So with, your experience at Medtronic, you're
managing products.
Were you kind of project,product manager, you get
upstream and downstream stuff,so you've got field support as
well as product development.
Howie Chan (07:29):
Yeah, I was lucky enough to have my toes dipped in
all, both sides of the house.
both upstream and downstream.
That was really fun, right?
So, crafting and trying tofigure out how to launch
something to, it's alreadylaunched now, let's go push and
get more traction in the market.
So, I was responsible for both,for two different product lines.
that was great.
(07:49):
It was a fantastic experience
Pat Kothe (07:52):
Were you exposed to branding at that point?
there's the company brand, theMedtronic brand, and then
there's product brands and whatdivision you're in and branding
from that standpoint, howinvolved were you with branding
in your experience at Medtronic?
Howie Chan (08:05):
Yeah, that's a great question because it breaks into
this whole conversation aboutwhat is branding and what is
brand, right, Pat?
So, my experience now, yeah, Iwas absolutely in it.
I was in it without knowing Iwas in it.
I was putting, pulling togetherthe messages, trying to figure
out what the customers wanted.
(08:26):
Applying the master brand formy, I was doing the things, but
I didn't realize I was doing thethings.
So only after I became a brandstrategist and seeing how you
actually launch something fromthe ground up, then you realize,
whoa, it is all of it.
It's all of it.
it's how your customers interactwith their salespeople.
It's how they get theirbrochures or step into the
(08:48):
booth.
It's how you follow up with yourCRM emails.
It's how you bring them into themothership and lead them through
different sort of innovationbooths or product, demos.
it's really everything.
So I was doing it withoutrecognizing I was already part
of the sort of brand experienceeffort.
Pat Kothe (09:06):
let's start at the, at that top level and what
exactly is branding?
it's a term that people throwout all the time.
But from an expert standpoint,what is brand?
What's the importance of brand?
Howie Chan (09:19):
Yeah, so I always tell people there are two
things.
So what is a brand?
A brand is a feeling.
And a brand is actually adecision making shortcut.
So why do you choose something?
Why do you behave a certain way?
All that is a brand, right?
So for example, the brand of,let's say, you, is also your
(09:42):
reputation.
What do people say about you,Pat, when you're not in a room,
when you're not there, when yourname is brought up?
Just like a Medtronic, just likea Nike.
What do people feel about that?
Whether it's a sentiment.
Branding is basically all theactivities, everything, to
design an experience so thatfeeling happens.
(10:03):
That's it.
Pat Kothe (10:03):
And where does that, and where does that feeling
happen?
Howie Chan (10:07):
It happens in the mind of the customer, in the
consumer, in the audience.
So really, you have no say.
And a lot of times, if you'reinteracting with people, you're
leaving an impression.
They have it in their minds.
It's their perception of you.
So you can't never say, Ah,that's not my brand.
My brand is this.
No.
You don't decide that.
(10:27):
The people that look at you, thepeople that interact with you
decide that.
Pat Kothe (10:31):
What's interesting, too, is that, even though you
don't have a branding expert oryou don't have a brand plan,
inside your company, you've gota brand.
your brand is out there.
you may not be managing it, youmay not understand what it is,
but you've got a brand outthere.
Howie Chan (10:46):
Yes, 100%.
I tell folks this too, unlessyou are three people in a garage
where you've got everything youneed and you don't need
customers, you're precommercial, you're not
interacting with anybody, youhave a brand and you need it.
As long as you're interactingwith someone, even if it's an
(11:07):
investor and not a customer,you're building brand, because
you're interacting, you'releaving impressions, whether you
like it or not, they can hateyou, they can love you.
The worst is, is if they haveno, they don't care about you,
if they're neutral about you.
That's the worst, right?
There's no feeling about you.
Pat Kothe (11:23):
let's talk about managing a brand.
So now we know what, what thatbrand is, that, that feeling,
that, that ability to, havesomebody take action when you're
not there.
How do you actively manage abrand?
Howie Chan (11:38):
Yeah, and then, and I think, when you talk about
managing a brand, first yougotta have the foundation of the
brand to manage.
So a lot of companies startmanaging things, but...
What is the foundation?
What is the core?
What do you believe in?
Why are you here?
Why do you exist?
What's your mission?
So I'm not even just talkingabout a mission statement.
(11:59):
Many companies can havestatements.
But really understand who do youserve?
Why you exist?
What's the secret sauce of whatyou bring to the table?
The value, right?
Value gets thrown around so muchin the Metech world.
what's your value?
What are you providing value?
So what is it?
And how is it different fromwhat's already out there?
I think oftentimes Companiesforget that when you align all
(12:22):
of those things, the inside, theoutside, the value, how you show
up, your persona, your tone ofvoice, that creates a strong
brand foundation for you tomanage.
Pat Kothe (12:34):
You mentioned, value as being, something that's
thrown around and everybodytalks about that.
How do you, let's talk aboutbrand differentiation for a
second.
Because if everybody says, weprovide.
value to our customers.
We're, we're focused on thepatient.
we, provide solutions toclinical problems.
If everybody's saying that, andno one's differentiated, it's a
(12:58):
zero sum game.
nobody's benefiting, by doingthat.
So how do you, how do you comeup with a differentiated brand
that's, makes a difference in,in your customer's mind?
Howie Chan (13:11):
Yeah, I think first you gotta, you gotta have
something that actually doesgive value.
Brand can't solve for that.
You gotta have a product thatdoes something different or
better.
Starts with that, right?
And then once you have that,then it's really having the
audacity to look into what isclearly the most, impactful
(13:33):
thing you can deliver.
Because I always talk about...
You can deliver vitamins or youcan deliver painkillers.
Guess what?
Painkillers sell.
Painkillers do somethingimmediate.
It helps you relieve your pain.
Vitamins?
Ah, I take it today, I take ittomorrow, I miss a day here.
It's okay.
It's fine.
So it really starts from thepeople you're serving.
(13:56):
So whether it's, again, intoday's environment, you got to
look at the hospital system, youneed to look at payers,
obviously, the users, thedecision makers, across all of
your stakeholders, what pain areyou solving for the most
influential decision maker?
That's it.
You start from there.
What is that pain?
And once you understand that,Then you can come up with
(14:17):
something that's different.
Then you can actually saysomething that's unique, that's
specific.
Nobody wants to hear you talkabout value and innovation
anymore.
Show me.
Show me.
How are you delivering value?
How are you being innovative?
It's like a comedian saying, I'mso funny.
Come see my show.
Nah, you show people that you'refunny.
You don't say that you're funny.
Pat Kothe (14:39):
So you talk about your experience at Medtronic.
There was somebody that wasmanaging the master brand at
Medtronic, but you were a cog inthe wheel and you didn't know.
You didn't understand that youhad a piece of that brand
strategy.
And you didn't even know.
Howie Chan (14:57):
Yeah,
Pat Kothe (14:58):
so how does that happen within companies?
how do you make it verticallyintegrated in your company that
people understand what the brandis and help to reinforce and
build on that, that brand story?
Howie Chan (15:12):
Yeah, I think What's amazing about it is, even though
I didn't know it, I was alreadyliving it.
when I say brand, a brand is theexperience of what you have.
And it always starts from theinside.
So in Medtronic's, kudos tothem.
They have a very good...
(15:32):
Onboarding and cultural,experience as you join a
company.
So I think even now, if you,when you join a company, and
back then when Earl Baken, thefounder was alive, you would
attend every single newemployee, induction ceremony,
and you were given a medal, anartifact of the words he wrote
(15:53):
down 50 years ago when hefounded a company to alleviate
pain and extend life.
And that was just a part ofeverybody's...
norm.
So you feel like you're inductedinto a tribe that's really
caring for humanity and caringfor health.
And it was real.
You felt real and you were in itwithout even knowing you were in
(16:14):
it.
So I think the best brands dothat.
They attract the people and thenthey put in place the
foundations for you to feel, foryou to be able to act, for you
to behave the way that thebrands want to be seen in the
world.
Pat Kothe (16:30):
Sometimes we come into a company where there's a
healthy brand, like a Medtronictoward Man's Full Life.
the Vitruvian man, the brandingin Medtronic is strong and long.
And sometimes we come into acompany and we may have a
negative brand image.
that's out there.
So tell me a little bit about,that type of a situation where
(16:54):
you're coming in and maybe youdon't know what the brand is and
maybe you know, or you suspect,and it's not exactly what you
want it to be.
Howie Chan (17:06):
it all starts with leadership.
It all starts from the top.
So I can't help a company if thetop of the pyramid doesn't want
to change.
I can't do that.
I can't make you feel like brandmatters to you.
But if you feel like brandmatters, I can help you change
it.
So it always starts from thetop.
There are definitely situationswhere, when you audit a brand,
(17:27):
you feel like you're A, but thenit turns out you're Z, right?
And when that happens, it'sgoing through the process.
So if you start mapping out theentire journey of whatever
audience set believes you'retrying to change, so for
example, there's customers.
What's going on with thecustomer?
Like, how, what is their journeytoday?
From the moment they seesomething online, or hear
(17:48):
something, or read somethingabout you guys in a journal, all
the way to the touch point of asales meeting, or even to the
way that they use your products,or even how products are being
contracted at a hospital, howyou're able to take it out of
packaging, go through everysingle detail of that journey
and then you start analyzingwhat are the fall downs, what
(18:09):
are the emotional disconnects,what are the areas that's
confusing, what are the negativepoints, and then see if it lines
up to your house or not, yourfoundation or not.
And, often times, Pat...
The foundation is not there, orthe foundation also needs to
change.
Perhaps the company has changed,or perhaps the landscape has
changed, but the story hasn'tchanged.
(18:30):
So once you start lining up thefoundation to the journey, you
start recognizing where theareas that you need to improve,
and that gets into the tacticalbits of, all right, now what do
we need to do?
Is it training?
Is it new materials?
What do we need to do?
Pat Kothe (18:44):
The companies make choices on their branding based
on the bets that they want tomake.
Let me explain that a second.
The most important customer fora company, let's say, they've
got a surgeon preference itemand they want to own the
customer's mind that we have.
(19:04):
quality products that solve a,solve a particular, problem that
they're having, that we're aninnovative company that we,
quickly come up with new devicesthat we're supplying a steady
stream of things that helps.
So that, that's what the, the,what the feeling that they want
to have with that customer, butthen on the supply chain side,
(19:27):
we're holding price.
we're not going to be, playingin the price game like other
people will.
In that customers mind supplychain, customer, they may think,
this company is not willing toplay ball there.
they're not, not very, not verygood in terms of being a good
corporate partner with us, butit's a choice.
(19:50):
that the company is making.
So how do you balance out yourbrand when you've got a multi
headed customer out there and itmay be a positive on one side
and a negative on another.
Howie Chan (20:02):
Yeah, that's a, I think that's a great, that's a
great question, Pat.
and I think every MetTechcompany faces this, right?
There's multi headed, everybodyhas different needs.
I think what's important is,again, is alignment.
How do you point all themessages for all the different
stakeholders back to one thing?
What do you stand for?
(20:23):
What, in the end, do you standfor?
If, in the end, you stand forwe're a company that's let's
say, seeking to make someprocedure better, faster,
whatever it is, but youacknowledge that it's just not
for everybody, then it's adecision that you're making.
But you can never say, hey, wewant to help everyone, but then
(20:45):
we're never willing to budge onprice.
Or we're never willing to budgeanything.
Nothing.
We're budging on nothing.
So I think it's, you just haveto be aligned.
it just be a line.
And for me, for a brand andmarketing person, price is like,
it's like World War III.
it's not about the price.
It's a, it comes back to thisidea if we're talking about
prices, that means they don'tsee, back to the word value,
(21:08):
they don't see it.
They don't feel like it doesanything for them.
And maybe those are not yourright customers.
They're not for you.
go somewhere else.
Pat Kothe (21:18):
There are some companies that are good at
developing, managing theirbrand.
There's some that aren't.
What separates the two?
Howie Chan (21:31):
I think it's case by case basis, right?
But I think the key thing is, doyou even understand or know that
brand is a factor?
I think once if you have someonethat goes in with their eyes
opened Pat, they should be ableto manage it.
Again, when you think about likestartup companies and I work
(21:53):
with startups a lot We're nottalking about tremendous amount
of investment right off the bat.
It's not about that.
It's about the intent.
So if your eyes are open and yousay, Hey, I want to develop a
great brand.
How do we start?
Crawl, walk, run, just likeanything.
You don't, swing.
You don't swing for the fencesat day one.
(22:13):
No, you go for your foundation.
You don't need to spend so much,but just be mindful intent, you
know have intention when youstart these things out what you
often see Pat those that don'tmanage it it's like, all right,
we're gonna create this brandhere.
We're gonna launch this thingthere.
We're gonna develop thesemessages here We're gonna do
that and then you end up withwhat I love to call brand
palooza You have five differentnames all pointing at different
(22:35):
directions the company's thisthing you're saying that and
then depending on the flavor ofthe month we're gonna just talk
about things that is on trend,but they all point in different
directions, right?
And then that's where disasterhits the fan.
That's what you do, that audit,and it comes back.
Wait, I thought we were knownfor this.
Nah, you're actually known fornothing, because you're trying
to stand for everything.
Pat Kothe (22:55):
So you've had the opportunity to manage brands and
do branding.
Inside the medical deviceindustry and outside of the
medical device industry.
And every industry likes tothink that they're unique and
they're different.
Is medical device different?
Howie Chan (23:12):
I think there are certain aspects of it that is
different, but in the end, we'reselling to humans, like we're
talking to humans.
We're trying to influence humanbehavior.
So the tenets of human behaviorare still the same.
but obviously there aredifferences, right?
So, one of the key things, justif you talk about healthcare
versus not, and we can get intoMedDevice.
(23:34):
it drives me crazy whenever ahealthcare company comes to me
and say, Hey, look what it didwith this other agency.
And it comes back with, we'rehere to transform lives, drive
patient outcomes, customers areat our core.
Oh my God, we're so proud ofthat.
It's so great.
And then you're like, everybodysays that, what did they do?
(23:54):
It is not a revelation.
It doesn't even point to whyyou're different or something
that's distinct.
that's healthcare.
And then when you get to the,med device, what's different
about med device and what I loveabout med device is that there
is technology involved, andthere's such an opportunity.
(24:15):
for medtech brands, especiallyif it's for, let's say, chronic
diseases where actually patientsuse those devices, if you think
about like diabetic or glucosemonitors or pumps, drug pumps
and things like that, you getinto the realm of almost
consumer health and there's anopportunity to develop a
relationship and a brand withthe patient themselves.
(24:36):
Not just the physicians, notjust the users.
So I think for medtech, there'sa lot of different components
and that's why, it's a passionof mine.
That's why it is differentbecause there's a lot of
opportunity for you to align allthese different bits and pieces
to create something strong andpowerful.
Pat Kothe (24:52):
Let's talk about nesting of brands for a second
because this is something that'sa little bit...
It can be a little bit tricky.
So you've got a largemultinational company and
they've got many differentdivisions underneath them.
And some may be very innovativeand some may be, 50 year old
technology that, there's still,trotting out there and it's
(25:13):
still a value, but it's, it'sold technology.
And then you've got, again, thedivision that's on the cutting
edge.
And then, so you've got all ofthese different things.
And.
The view of the customer may bedifferent about your company
depending on which which, um,technology that they're involved
with.
(25:34):
somebody is using the 50 yearold one and that's your customer
and they see your brand messagebeing something different than
what they're used to do it.
So how do you deal with theselarge companies where you've got
things nested underneath themand then you've got an
overarching theme that may ormay not be pinpoint to the
(25:57):
customer who's using yourproduct.
Howie Chan (26:00):
For me brands are always changing.
They're always in progress,right?
If it's over, it means, thecompany has shut.
It's done.
So a brand is a story thatcontinues to be told.
So when you think about that andyou think about a brand as a
story, not every character in astory is the protagonist.
(26:25):
There are sub characters, thereare very small characters, there
are different parts to play.
So if you think about aportfolio as different
characters in the story, likeany great story, you hone in on
the ones that are going to makea difference, that are key
players in that story.
For me, it's talking about powerbrands, right?
(26:46):
These are the power divisions orpower products that really are
the flagship of the mothership.
And you place a lot of emphasison those.
Are there these sub players orsmall parts?
Yeah, but you're not going tospend so much time on them.
So there's always going to bethis journey where you have
(27:07):
customers interacting withbrands that are the small
players, those that don't havethe protagonist parts.
But that's okay.
I think as long as everythingsort of points to that main
idea, main thesis for the brand.
it's okay.
And sometimes it's intransition.
So take, for example, I wasworking with a company.
(27:29):
They just got bought by Amgen,the're Horizon Therapeutics.
I worked with them when theywere rebranding.
So what happened there was a lotof their portfolio products were
about primary care.
So these are primary care drugs.
But they wanted to move into theworld of rare diseases.
So while most of their revenuewas generated by primary care
(27:51):
drugs, they're going to placetheir bets in rare disease
drugs.
So the transition point was if Iwas a physician, a hospital
system, a payer that'sinteracting with Horizon
Therapeutics at that precisemoment of transition and change
and you say, Hey, we're allabout rare disease.
I might be like, wait a minute.
Most of your portfolio isprimary care, but that's okay.
(28:14):
Because you start to paint apicture and a vision for it.
This is where we want to go.
This is how we're going to placeour bets.
And we, and this is how italigns with the purpose of our
company.
So within a two, three, four,five year period, they continue
to be good on their promises todeliver on that purpose, it's
(28:35):
okay.
It's fine.
Because again, a brand is notdone.
A brand is a story continued tobe told.
Pat Kothe (28:42):
that's a great example.
There are other examples wherepeople put an aspirational thing
out there, and this is who we'regoing to be, and new management
comes in and it's not what we'regoing to be.
And then you have a misstep,there and causing confusion in
the, into the marketplace.
So if you are going to have anaspirational one, you better
(29:05):
make sure that you're going toexecute on it.
Otherwise you're playing withyour brand.
Howie Chan (29:10):
No, 100%.
And the other thing too, Pat,some companies aim too high.
Some companies aim too high.
So I say there's a Goldilockszone here in terms of like your
aspirations.
It's below the role of yourbrand.
So understand what is the roleof your brand.
Every medtech company wants tocure the world or save every
(29:32):
single patient.
But guess what?
You are not the physician.
You're not treating patients.
You're enabling.
You're a technology.
there is a role for you to beplayed.
So understand what that role is.
Always stay beneath that.
But then at the bottom boundaryis...
It has to have importance.
It has to have some impact.
It has to have some aspirationalqualities to it.
(29:54):
It can't be so low that, Ohyeah, we're here to make widgets
to, decrease the surgery time.
okay, that's great, but it's notvery aspirational.
So let's bump it up a littlebit.
So in between there, that's yourGoldilocks zone.
Pat Kothe (30:07):
That's a, that's really a great point.
And also it gives you a littlebit of wiggle room too, in case
you over, do your expectations.
You can sneak it up a littlebit.
If you underperform, you cansneak it down a little bit.
You don't look like an idiot forbeing too high or too low.
Howie Chan (30:26):
Yeah, and I think to your point, Pat, in the end, you
gotta commit to it.
You gotta deliver on it.
You gotta commit.
You may never get there, but yougotta show you're moving towards
that.
you gotta show that you'reedging towards what you're
aspiring to be.
Pat Kothe (30:41):
Things have, have changed, how companies are
behaving in the marketplace andbehaving socially, just, over,
over the past, past decade orso.
It used to be, companies weregoing, we're going to stick to
what we do and we're going totalk messaging about what we do
and we're not going to weigh inon politics.
(31:02):
We're not going to weigh in onsocial issues.
We're just going to stay in ourlane.
Things have changed and it'scausing some issues out, out in
the marketplace.
Bud Light gets hammered forsomething that they did on the
social side.
Other companies, get praised forwhat they do by one group of
people and then reviled by, bythe other group of, group of
(31:25):
people.
We've got lightning rods inhere, and we're a divided, a
divided world, a dividedmarketplace.
But there are some expectationsthat people have of what a
company should do when they,when something big happens.
How should companies view someof these issues?
(31:46):
What's the best strategy thatthey can employ when you've got
a major issue that happens outthere?
And.
The expectation is they're goingto weigh in with saying
something.
Howie Chan (31:58):
Yeah.
that's such a good question,Pat, and it's such a, it's such
an important conversation,right?
in today's world, like you said,there are things that come and
go.
There are big lightning rodevents.
I'm in Minneapolis, right?
when the George Floyd eventhappened, a lot of issues, a lot
of blowback, a lot of need forcompanies to act.
(32:23):
So I take a page from sort ofpersonal development because I
feel like leadership, personaldevelopment, and brands are all
tied in the same, in the samevein.
So when you're faced with apersonal challenge, when you're
faced with something personal,how do you decide to act one way
versus another?
(32:44):
First you got to know yourself.
You got to have some selfawareness because in the end, we
need to act congruently with ourbeliefs and who we are.
And when we don't do that, badthings happen.
As a person, you don't feel goodabout yourself, you're maybe
your mental health starts todecline, but as a company, you
(33:05):
start to get, like you said,these, what it's...
mass exodus of employees orcustomers, ditching your brand.
So I think you have tounderstand, first of all, who
you are as a company.
So what I mean very concretelyis what are the beliefs that you
hold true?
What are the values that you sayyou abide by?
(33:25):
How do you live?
How do you survive?
What, why do you exist?
All that thing, all the thingsthat we talked about foundations
for a brand, that's going tohelp you decide, do I engage?
Do I not?
So if the culture of the companyis such that, we really care
about our people are soimportant and you say that left
and right, you put it all overyour HR, page, you gotta act
(33:48):
accordingly.
So if things like that happen,you have to immediately talk to
your employees.
What's happening?
What do we think?
What's our stance?
And then from an outsideperspective, you work with them
to figure out what do we want totalk about outside of the
confines of the company?
Is it going to impact ourcustomers?
(34:09):
Does it make sense to do that?
If we lose this part of ourcustomers because we make a
stand, is that okay?
You first got to understandthat, and then you make
decisions.
I think what gets companies intotrouble...
is they think they're a certainway and they just view it as
like a marketing campaign likeBud Light for example.
What do they stand for as acompany and brand?
(34:31):
Sure, they have been supportingthese groups for a while but
very differently.
It's not a public nationalcampaign of support.
Again, I'm not saying it's rightor wrong, you just have to
understand who you are, what youstand for and the consequences
of saying or not sayingsomething and then you do it.
Pat Kothe (34:52):
The easiest thing to do sometimes is not to say
anything.
And that's been the case for alot of companies for a lot of
years.
But there's cost to that too.
And that cost, as you said, areyou gonna, are you going to look
bad in your employees?
Hey, you're not standing up forme.
I'm this type of person.
This is important to me.
(35:12):
stand up for me.
or it could be in yourcustomers, what your customer
says, but recognizing thatthere's going to be a cost to it
is also something that we haveto weigh when we make these
decisions.
So sometimes, silence, has acost to it.
But taking a stand has a cost toit as well.
(35:33):
I like your idea of going in andtalking to your employees and
exploring those things, butthere's a time pressure on some
of these things too, because youdon't want to be, a month later
after you've done all of yourinternal stuff, come out and
say, here's my statement onGeorge Floyd or, pick the, uh,
uh, the topic.
You have to be somewhat timelyas well, which kind of is hard
(35:55):
when you're trying to getfeedback from your employees
too.
Howie Chan (35:59):
no doubt.
No doubt.
And that's why, there, there arepeople that do a lot of these
things.
that's their jobs for crisiscommunications, for example.
They have plans in place, right?
having a process, having donescenarios like you gotta do all
this stuff and prep.
You gotta make your friendsbefore, bad things happen.
All this should be done already,right?
(36:19):
So, understanding where thenation's gonna go, all these
different things that could popup, understanding these
scenarios and plan for them, andwhat you're gonna say, if you're
gonna say something, shouldalready be there.
By taking a stand, it reallycomes back to alignment.
Because if it aligns with yourpurpose...
You will feel that you'recompelled to do something.
(36:40):
Because if you don't, like yousay, if you keep quiet, you're
not actually delivering on whatyou say you are, or who you say
you are.
Pat Kothe (36:47):
When we look at things from a company
standpoint, we can make, makethose decisions on what the
company press release is goingto be and how the company is
going to do things.
But companies are made up ofpeople and leaders at, at
companies, have their ownpersonal beliefs, which may or
may not be completely alignedwith the company line, how do
(37:13):
you talk to companies and CEOs,CFOs, c-suite people, anybody in
that company that is gonna takea stand on a particular issue?
How do you talk to a companyabout aligning or not aligning
people's personal opinionsversus the company's opinion?
Howie Chan (37:37):
Again, first and foremost, it comes back to self
awareness, right?
It comes back to, you beingaligned with who you are as a
leader.
So what are your personalbeliefs and what are the
company's beliefs?
in the end, if a company isdoing a great job, they're
actually explicitly stating whowe are and who we are not.
And if you are a leader that hasbeliefs that are actually very
different, you ought, youshouldn't work there.
(37:59):
If not, it's going to be a verypainful journey for you.
It's just being honest, right?
You shouldn't work at a placewhere you don't align with.
Because if not, you're just youhave to lie to yourself every
single day.
And nobody wants that.
So that's number one.
And then the second thing is,depending on what you need to
say and what you want to say,guess what?
You are an employee of thecompany.
(38:20):
You should never denigrate theindustry.
You should never say anythingbad about your company because
you are actually an ambassador,right?
You're a leader at the company.
You're an ambassador for thecompany.
So if you were to say anything,it should go along the lines of
what the company's beliefs are.
You should.
And then, again, you shouldnever get to a point where you
(38:42):
are pissing off customers,that's using your company's
products today, because that'snot your job.
In the end, it's a job.
And if you don't like it, youcan change your job, and you can
quit your job, and you can saywhatever you want.
I think there is a mutualresponsibility, the company
towards you, and you towards thecompany.
Pat Kothe (38:59):
It's a really hard thing, Howie.
It is.
And I'll push back on you herebecause, we've got issues that
are split 50 50, within ourcountry.
and if the company takes astance, that means that 50
percent of the people don'tagree with it.
Or if they take no stance and,an employee takes a stance on
(39:20):
social media they're going totick off 50, 50 percent of the
population that's out there andthat leads into your brand.
If you say something, I supportthis cause, that cause, 50
percent don't, it will affectyour brand.
and we are so out there with ouropinions.
(39:45):
And so many people are weighingin on things that they may or
may not have informed opinionson, but it's just what our
society is doing.
And the company brand may paythe price for the individual
decisions that are being made byit, by somebody.
and they may think that they'rein total alignment with
(40:06):
everybody in the company, butthey may not be.
Howie Chan (40:10):
It is tricky.
It is tricky, isn't it?
again, in today's world,everybody is, is part of the
media.
Everybody can't be a mouthpiece,right?
I think in the end, you talkabout how do you manage your
brand, you have to have thatalignment.
You have to be able toexplicitly state who you are as
a company.
(40:30):
You just have to.
just...
tactical example, someone thatworks, for Nike versus someone
that works for Hyatt.
Which individual do you feellike they know whether they
align with their company valuesand brand or not, right?
I have no clue what the Hyattbrand is.
(40:51):
I have no clue, don't understandwhat their beliefs are.
But if you work for Nike, you'repretty sure what their beliefs
are, because they put theirmoney where their mouth is.
They say, this is who we are,this is what we're for, and then
that's it.
But even Nike don't, they don'ttake every stand on every issue,
like you said.
So it has to be an issue thatviolates, that comes into close
(41:16):
proximity of your values as abrand.
Again, we don't know what theydo internally, so I would reckon
because they care about theirpeople, they probably talk about
this internally, but as anoutward communication, you don't
have to tackle everything,neither should you, because some
of those have nothing to do withyour brand.
You also find companies thatwant to tackle everything, but
(41:38):
dude, you're not a non profitthat's trying to, save the
world.
You're a company in the end.
So again, it really depends onwhat is your role.
How can you be more explicit sothat your employees that work
for you know what you stand for?
And that's the best you can do,Pat.
And, there's no right or wrong,too.
This is also a journey.
You can mess up one day, andthen you say, I'm sorry, I
(42:00):
messed up, And then you move on.
We are all learning how to bebetter citizens in this new
world.
And I think it's okay to admitthat it is a journey.
And sometimes, you can't be 100percent perfect every single
day.
Pat Kothe (42:16):
As you were describing that master brand,
that the top umbrella of who youare, and really understanding
and thinking through what do youstand for?
What do you want to stand for?
Then it makes these decisionseasier.
If you don't have that clarity.
If you've not gone through andhad full clarity on what that
(42:40):
is, that's what makes thesedecisions much more tricky
because you have, you have not,you've not come to terms in your
own mind with who you are.
And now every decision thatevery new thing that pops up,
you've got to rethink and.
Does it fit?
Doesn't, does it not fit?
(43:00):
It becomes much more problematicas opposed to I know who I am.
Now let me, let me makedecisions based on that truth.
Howie Chan (43:10):
You probably face this all the time as a CEO of a
company.
Like any leader, right?
Whether it's a CEO, whether it'sa sports team leader, whether
it's a president of a country,you're going to be faced with
very hard decisions.
And in the end, if you knowyourself, you know your values,
you know what you stand for,you're going to be able to make
(43:30):
these decisions.
Because again, a hard decisionis just hard.
It is just, it just is.
There's no simple thing, whetheryou choose this path or that the
strong leaders are able to picka path, not because they know
it'll turn out well, but theyknow that it's aligned to who
they are.
That's it.
Pat Kothe (43:47):
I'll give you a, an example.
We're talking on a podcast.
I've got, podcasts, talk to alot of different people.
I'm also CEO of a company.
Covid Hits.
We've got an issue withvaccinations, I'm CEO of a
company and our customers areemergency department physicians
and clinicians in the emergencydepartment.
(44:08):
Guess what?
I want to protect the, protectmy customers.
that's who I'm, most, interestedin is aligning with their needs
and how we can support them.
People not getting vaccinateddoesn't support them because
they walk into the ED and theypass this on.
This is the height of the thing.
And I also know that, there area large percentage of the
(44:32):
country that does not supportvaccines.
Now to some of the listeners outthere, if you don't support
vaccines and you're part of themedical device community, I
question your commitment toscience.
Okay.
I probably just lost somelisteners right there.
Okay.
I probably just did.
It's a decision that I'll maketoday because that's how I feel
(44:56):
as an individual.
And I also feel that, we've got,a commitment to our fellow human
beings and public health to notpass these things on.
So that's a personal decisionthat I'm making as a CEO of a
company to come out and saythis.
So I could lose some listenersoff a podcast.
(45:19):
Who cares?
Is it going to affect mybusiness?
That's another decision that,that I've got to put in when I'm
having, uh, you know, put it,putting this information out
there.
Howie Chan (45:32):
It's absolutely true, right?
So I think making a stand, youshould feel the compulsion to do
that.
Just like what you just talkedabout, right?
I can feel the energy and I canfeel the intensity because it's
a must do.
It's not like, ah, you know,maybe we don't act on this.
Maybe we don't say anything.
(45:53):
No, this is something that youstand for.
This is something you believein.
You have to do it.
It's a must do.
So protecting your customer,it's a must do.
Vaccination, it's a must dobecause this is what we believe
in.
This is who we are.
And, I always say this too, likecompanies need to lift their
values at the darkest times.
(46:14):
Not just at the brightest spots.
Values are not just written onthe walls for fun.
It has to be lived in thedarkest of times, which means
sacrifice.
That's values.
You have to be willing to losesomething.
Because if not, it's notvaluable.
That's the definition of theword.
So you hit it right on the head.
Pat Kothe (46:34):
Great way of looking at it.
I love, I love that, thatsaying, I love that analogy.
Character is revealed indifficult times.
Our messaging can be revealed indifficult times.
How we come out to the worldwith our beliefs and our values
(46:55):
happens when we're in difficulttimes.
Thanks for bringing that up.
That was really a good way toview that.
Howie Chan (47:04):
Yeah, I mean, it always reminds me of, I think
people talk about this all thetime with Nike's ad with Colin
Kaepernick, right?
So in his book, Shoe Dog, PhilKnight always talks about the
moment where they brought himthis idea where, Hey, we need to
do something and we need to workwith Colin because he's been
standing up for something,right?
So the idea is, believe insomething, even if it means
(47:25):
sacrificing everything.
And Phil Knight said, we must dothis.
This is something we have to do,even though it's going to piss,
probably piss a lot of peopleoff that we're taking a stand,
but we have to do, it's a must.
And guess what, right?
Tons of people burned theirshoes.
If you remember, like peoplewere going crazy.
(47:46):
But those that love them boughtmore shoes.
Those that love them said thatis exactly who we are.
You're exactly right.
We've been with you this wholetime and the people that love
them more.
Pat Kothe (47:59):
There are lessons that we learn in one part of our
life that we can apply to otherparts of our life.
So you're a branding expert.
You deal with company brands,but we all have individual
brands as well.
we're all, and we talk about it,the company reputation or the
personal reputation, just,switch out the word brand and,
you know, it's, it's reputation.
(48:19):
So how can we apply some of thelessons that you've learned in
company branding to our ownindividual branding and our own
individual reputations?
Howie Chan (48:28):
Thanks for the tee up.
I'm actually coaching folks nowone on one on individual brands,
personal brands and you'reabsolutely spot on.
I think reputation is a good wayto think about it.
Sometimes people don't like tosee themselves as a brand
because they're like, I'm not aproduct, I'm not up for sale.
No, you're not for sale.
(48:49):
But when people hear your name,what do you want people to think
about you, right?
Are you a tireless worker or areyou someone that slack off?
are you someone that I want towork with because you bring joy
into our work?
Are you a curmudgeon that nobodywants to touch with a 10 foot
pole?
Who are you?
So I think, just like what wetalked about for companies, I
(49:12):
think for individuals, clarityis important.
What do you value?
What do you really care about?
So when I work with, myindividual clients, it's really
about, again, aligning all ofthese things.
Because we're all a product ofour environment.
We're a product of how we grewup.
We're a product of how ourparents taught us, the teachers
(49:34):
that we've had, the careers thatwe've led.
How do all these things line up?
what in the end is your secretsauce?
What do you bring to the world?
What value do you deliver tothose around you?
And it starts from that.
A lot of that is internal work,Pat.
So again, I don't do this witheverybody because there are
(49:55):
people that are more self awarethan others, and some aren't
even willing to open that box tolook inside.
If you are willing to lookinside, I would say that, like,
start writing down what do youstand for, who are you, and why
are you here, why do you exist,and then really craft out
something about your superpower,right?
What is that spark that youuniquely bring to the world?
(50:18):
And I think once you understandit, the rest is almost tactical.
Pat, when you show up for work,when you show up in an
interview, what would you say?
What are the things?
What are the stories that showand showcase that personality
and that truth and thatsuperpower and value?
So start from there.
Pat Kothe (50:37):
And as we talked about earlier, you already have
a brand.
You already have a reputation.
You may not know what it is.
You may have to do a brandaudit.
You may have to do that 360, or270, assessment to know what
people think of you, becauseonly then can you attack and
change and rebrand or work onyour, your reputation'cause
(51:01):
that's a difficult, you know,it's, you're creating a brand is
is one thing.
Managing a brand or rebranding,it's a different animal.
Howie Chan (51:10):
Yeah.
And you bring up something so,so important and what I've seen
too.
I think you talked about, whatmakes successful companies
successful and what makes notsuccessful companies fail.
I think just like individuals.
The ones that are successful,and can manage brands well, or
even manage themselves as abrand well, are those that's
willing to look in a mirror andbe okay with what they see.
(51:34):
It's okay.
Look in the black box.
Do that audit.
Bring up the mirror.
If it doesn't look like what youwant it to look like, good.
Time to change.
If it looks like exactly whatyou think it's going to look
like, fantastic.
Keep doing what you're doing.
In any case, there's, there's nobad blood.
You can change if you need to.
You don't have to change if youdon't want to, but be okay with
(51:55):
what in the mirror.
A lot of times people get sofreaked out, they don't even
want to see the mirror.
They don't even want to do anaudit.
They say, I know everything.
I know it all.
I know exactly what my customersthink of me.
Or, they say, no, whatever youbrought back in the mirror?
Nah, that's not true.
Alright, I don't want to talkabout this anymore.
See ya! To your own detriment.
Pat Kothe (52:14):
If you're on a desert island and it's just you.
Who cares what anybody elsethinks?
It's what you think.
it's, that's the only thing thatmatters.
None of us live on a desertIsland.
So we're all trying to dosomething.
We're all trying to influence,other people.
We're all trying to move ourown, uh, self ahead in this
(52:35):
world.
And we have to do it with otherpeople in mind.
And we have to understand howare we really being viewed?
And as you said, are we thecurmudgeon?
Are we the, the Debbie Downer?
Are we, somebody who brings joyinto the room when you walk into
the room?
That's going to help to buildwhatever you're trying to do.
That, that reputation that, thatexists within that person's mind
(52:59):
of you when you're not there isgonna, lead to how effective
you're going to be.
Howie Chan (53:05):
Yeah.
And I think the last part aboutthat is, you gotta then be able
to craft that story, right?
We talked about earlier on, abrand is a story.
You gotta be able to craft...
that story, so as a person, whatis your story?
What is a story that you cantell, whether it's a
professional one, a personalone, that people listen to and
be like, Yeah, I understand younow.
I get you.
I get you.
(53:25):
Just like a company tells theirstory.
What is their story?
Be very intentional of craftingthat and then, repeat it again
and again.
Pat Kothe (53:35):
Howie, you've got a couple of things that, that
you're doing right now.
You've got a podcast calledHealthy Brand, contains some
great information on branding,not only within medical device,
but from other areas as well.
And you've got, you've got, uh,your own consulting group that
(53:55):
helps with branding.
Talk to me a little bit aboutthe podcast, a little bit about
your company and how you helpcustomers.
Howie Chan (54:01):
Healthy Brand Consulting is, is my consulting
group.
So what we do is we work withcompanies, again, large, small,
doesn't really matter.
They're usually at a point ofinflection.
So when there's misalignment,when the outside doesn't match
the inside, how do we help themalign these things?
So sometimes it's a tweak instrategy, a new narrative, and
you're done.
Sometimes it's, all right, howdo we refresh?
(54:23):
Look and feel.
How do we develop a campaign?
But it's all towards a businessgoal, right?
For me, it's all about what'syour goal as a business and
let's help you get there.
the podcast is really a passionproject, Pat.
I think like you, when I startedthe podcast, I wanted to have
something where I can meetpeople, talk to really smart and
(54:44):
interesting folks that lives atthe intersection of health and
brand.
And a lot of times I might leanon one side versus the other.
Like I've got founders, thatreally have found this sort of
healthcare companies that I'dlike to get their take on what
brand is for them.
Or I talked to brand strategiststhat have worked with the
largest brands in the world andget their take.
(55:06):
On what branding and health caremeans for them.
So for me, it's really at theintersection.
and I have been having a lot offun talking to folks and
learning about them.
and then what I also do is I'vestarted to do individual
coaching as well.
It all started from peopleasking me for how, Hey, do you
work with people?
Cause I'm very active onLinkedIn.
And that has been, again,something that I've, I love
(55:28):
doing, helping people outindividually.
So I'm doing that too.
Pat Kothe (55:31):
So, Howie, thanks so much for, leading us through
this, uh, very interestingdiscussion on company branding,
personal branding, and how, youknow, we get into our customer's
mind and, and how we're viewedwithin our customer's mind.
I'm thinking about, somebodywho's, in a company and they're
now responsible for branding.
Either they got the light andsaid, geez, we don't, we need to
(55:54):
have somebody responsible forbranding.
or, they're a new company andthey're thinking about, how do
they want to be perceived in thecustomer's mind?
What are a few of the thingsthat they should be doing first?
Howie Chan (56:07):
Yeah, I think first, first step is, What do you, what
have you got?
What's the current state?
What's the current state?
So have you got documents?
Have you have anything writtendown?
What's explicitly said aboutyour company?
Again, the foundational pieces,right?
What do you believe in?
What are your values?
All that stuff.
And then do that audit.
Do that audit, man, What doother people see in you?
(56:29):
What's their experience of you?
And then once you see that, youhave the alignment or
misalignment to work on andthat's it.
Again, it doesn't mean you gottado a new logo, it doesn't mean
you gotta have a new campaign.
Doesn't need to.
You get to figure out and decidehow to activate on a set of
changes that you need to have.
(56:49):
But I think the first step isthat.
And then once you understand themisalignment, get a brand
strategist.
You know, get a brand strategistto help you put everything
together.
Make these critical decisions upfront before you spend any money
designing anything.
Don't do that.
Don't pour your money down thedrain.
Have a strategy and then work onthe deliverables later.
Pat Kothe (57:12):
One of the things I love about hosting this podcast
is I get to learn alongside you.
I consider myself to be prettysavvy on brand.
But I learned several things inthis conversation and will
reframe a few others in how Ilook at branding.
My thanks to Howie for helpingall of us understand how brand
(57:35):
can and should work for us.
A few of my takeaways.
First, a brand is a decisionmaking shortcut.
Howie said, does someone feelabout you when you're not in the
room?
Not think, but how does somebodyfeel about you when you're not
(57:57):
in the room?
Just think about how that weighsinto their decision on how they
view you and your company, andyour products.
Secondly, building a brand witha solid foundation.
Probably the most importantthing that came out of this,
this discussion is building froma solid foundation.
(58:19):
So how do you do that?
Well, Howie gave us a lot ofquestions to ask and until we
answer these ourselves, wereally can't go forward to build
on top of this, build on yourfoundation.
So the questions, what do youbelieve in?
Why are you here?
Why do you exist?
What is your mission?
(58:39):
What's your secret sauce?
What are you bringing to thetable?
What is your value?
And how is it different thanwhat's already out there?
Finally, I really like theconversation we talked about the
Goldilocks Zone.
And that is, you're trying tohave an aspirational quality of
your business.
(59:00):
But if the aspirations are toohigh That's not good.
Uh, so it has to be believableand achievable, but it can't be
so low that it's irrelevant toyour customer.
So there's that Goldilocks zone.
Once you, once you have that,then you have to commit to it
and do it.
And just remember this, peoplewant to engage with people and
(59:25):
companies who are striving toachieve.
Thank you for listening.
Make sure you get episodesdownloaded to your device
automatically by liking orsubscribing to the Mastering
Medical Device podcast whereveryou get your podcasts.
Also, please spread the word andtell a friend or two to listen
to the Mastering Medical Devicepodcast as interviews like
(59:46):
today's can help you become amore effective medical device
leader.
Work hard, be kind.
Welcome! Branding is something many people have an
opinion on, but very few peopleare expert in.
Every company and every one ofus have a reputation, which is
commonly referred to as brand.
It can be of great benefit orabsolutely crush us.
(00:54):
Understanding who we are, whatothers think about us, and where
we want to go is critical if wewant our brand to work for us.
Our guest today is Howie Chan,an expert in branding and the
founder and principal brandstrategist at Healthy Brand
Consulting.
He has over two decades ofexperience building brands in
(01:17):
healthcare, across biotech,Pharma, Medtech, provider, payer
and digital health for startupsand fortune 500 companies.
Prior to founding Healthy BrandConsulting, he was the managing
director of brand strategy atReal Chemistry and contributed
in marketing roles at PhillipsHealthcare and Medtronic.
(01:39):
He's also an executive coach whohelps leaders with their
personal brand, as well as hostsa podcast called The Healthy
Brand Podcast.
He's on a mission to help 1million people live their
version of legendary.
In our conversation, Howieshares his early career
experiences in biomedicalengineering, his realization of
(02:02):
his strengths in marketing andbranding, and how his
experiences in industry shapedhis expertise, the essence of
branding, The importance ofalignment between a company's
values and its brandingstrategy, the significance of
leadership in managing a brand,and the impact of external
(02:24):
events on company branding.
Here's our conversation.
So Howie, I got to Ask a seriousquestion to get this thing
kicked off.
How does a biomedical engineerend up becoming a branding
expert?
Howie Chan (02:39):
That's a fantastic question.
Well, I, I really follow mycareer journey based on
curiosity.
I think one of the earliestmemories of getting on the
journey was, I really don't knowwhat I want to do.
I don't know what I want to dowhen I grow up.
And so for me, it was alwaysabout let's keep moving towards
things that interest me, thingsthat make me curious and move
(03:02):
away from things that I don'tlike.
So I did start my career inbiomedical engineering.
I was actually doing a lot oflab work.
I was in the lab.
I was in, preclinical labs aswell, doing a lot of research
work, like hardcore researchwork.
Pat Kothe (03:16):
Was that something that was, your, vision?
Or was this, something that youthought your parents wanted you
to do?
How did you come to that, thatwork?
Howie Chan (03:25):
Yeah, great question too.
I always wanted to be aphysician.
But
howie--he-his-_1_11-02-2023_1 (03:30):
I
Howie Chan (03:30):
never get, I didn't get into med school in
Singapore.
I grew up in Singapore.
So when I came to the U S it wasdoing pre med.
So I was in pre med, I was doingbiomedical engineering and I met
this professor.
He was an engineering professorand he was just a fantastic guy.
And so he took me under his wingand we just started doing
experiments and turns out he wasdoing part time.
(03:54):
professorship, but also workingat Medtronic at the same time.
So he basically just brought mein because he, we had a good
working relationship and it justwent from there.
I just started working for them.
So it was a very natural sort ofprogression from, school to
work.
Pat Kothe (04:11):
So at some point in time you thought, geez, there's
another world out there, outsideof the lab.
What was that all about?
Howie Chan (04:18):
I really real, I realized that man, I can do this
work, but I don't think I can bereally great at it.
I don't think I can come up witha cure for something or get
published in a ton of papers.
It was just, I didn't feel thatspark, you know, Pat.
So what happened was I wanted tojust see how this all works out
(04:40):
in the field.
So how does it work?
How do all these brillianttechnologies get sold, get
talked about, get used?
So I landed a job working in thefield.
And I think a lot of yourlisteners can probably...
surmise field experience in themedtech world.
It's always great.
(05:00):
It's great to have experience inthe field because you really
understand what happens when therubber meets the road.
You can see a ton of things, youcan try and design a lot of
products, but how does it getused?
So I did that for a coupleyears, and then naturally took
that...
experience back in house.
truthfully it was gettingdangerous.
(05:20):
I was driving so much.
Pat, this was the days beforeBluetooth Before Google Maps.
I had this like huge brick palmtrio thing I was trying to you
know mess with get on phonecalls, you know those days It
wasn't as sexy and slick and Ifound myself just driving so
much I covered for salesterritory and some days I was
(05:42):
driving five hours just to havea half an hour chat with the
doc.
So at some point I was like, Ithink I'm going to get into
trouble here.
as I'm driving so much.
So I started working in themarketing world and that just
kind of broke open this wholeworld for me, looking at product
marketing, introducing productsinto the market, but the game
(06:03):
changer, we realized that mypath forward was getting into
brand was actually working onthe agency side.
So after a decade.
on the industry side, I worked,another decade on the agency
side, and that's where it, if Ifound love with the world of
brand.
So it's really trying to launchcompanies.
I was working on all sorts ofdifferent problems, but
(06:26):
essentially all acrosshealthcare.
talking about medtech to digitalhealth, to providers, to payers,
pharma companies, biotechs.
At various stages in theirjourney, right?
So whether it's launching for anIPO, whether it's preparing to
get acquired, whether it'srepositioning a huge fortune 100
brand.
(06:46):
So I've done so many things, butone thing for sure is it's so
much quicker.
And so much faster turn thanbeing in the company itself.
As it takes a long time tolaunch a product.
So as a product marketer waitingfor something to launch, dude,
that takes a while.
Pat Kothe (07:02):
Yeah.
Howie Chan (07:03):
So I realized and recognized, I probably have some
ADHD going on, Pat.
So managing a bunch of projectsat the same time was really my
sweet spot.
And I fell in love with itinstantly.
Pat Kothe (07:17):
So with, your experience at Medtronic, you're
managing products.
Were you kind of project,product manager, you get
upstream and downstream stuff,so you've got field support as
well as product development.
Howie Chan (07:29):
Yeah, I was lucky enough to have my toes dipped in
all, both sides of the house.
both upstream and downstream.
That was really fun, right?
So, crafting and trying tofigure out how to launch
something to, it's alreadylaunched now, let's go push and
get more traction in the market.
So, I was responsible for both,for two different product lines.
that was great.
(07:49):
It was a fantastic experience
Pat Kothe (07:52):
Were you exposed to branding at that point?
there's the company brand, theMedtronic brand, and then
there's product brands and whatdivision you're in and branding
from that standpoint, howinvolved were you with branding
in your experience at Medtronic?
Howie Chan (08:05):
Yeah, that's a great question because it breaks into
this whole conversation aboutwhat is branding and what is
brand, right, Pat?
So, my experience now, yeah, Iwas absolutely in it.
I was in it without knowing Iwas in it.
I was putting, pulling togetherthe messages, trying to figure
out what the customers wanted.
(08:26):
Applying the master brand formy, I was doing the things, but
I didn't realize I was doing thethings.
So only after I became a brandstrategist and seeing how you
actually launch something fromthe ground up, then you realize,
whoa, it is all of it.
It's all of it.
it's how your customers interactwith their salespeople.
It's how they get theirbrochures or step into the
(08:48):
booth.
It's how you follow up with yourCRM emails.
It's how you bring them into themothership and lead them through
different sort of innovationbooths or product, demos.
it's really everything.
So I was doing it withoutrecognizing I was already part
of the sort of brand experienceeffort.
Pat Kothe (09:06):
let's start at the, at that top level and what
exactly is branding?
it's a term that people throwout all the time.
But from an expert standpoint,what is brand?
What's the importance of brand?
Howie Chan (09:19):
Yeah, so I always tell people there are two
things.
So what is a brand?
A brand is a feeling.
And a brand is actually adecision making shortcut.
So why do you choose something?
Why do you behave a certain way?
All that is a brand, right?
So for example, the brand of,let's say, you, is also your
(09:42):
reputation.
What do people say about you,Pat, when you're not in a room,
when you're not there, when yourname is brought up?
Just like a Medtronic, just likea Nike.
What do people feel about that?
Whether it's a sentiment.
Branding is basically all theactivities, everything, to
design an experience so thatfeeling happens.
(10:03):
That's it.
Pat Kothe (10:03):
And where does that, and where does that feeling
happen?
Howie Chan (10:07):
It happens in the mind of the customer, in the
consumer, in the audience.
So really, you have no say.
And a lot of times, if you'reinteracting with people, you're
leaving an impression.
They have it in their minds.
It's their perception of you.
So you can't never say, Ah,that's not my brand.
My brand is this.
No.
You don't decide that.
(10:27):
The people that look at you, thepeople that interact with you
decide that.
Pat Kothe (10:31):
What's interesting, too, is that, even though you
don't have a branding expert oryou don't have a brand plan,
inside your company, you've gota brand.
your brand is out there.
you may not be managing it, youmay not understand what it is,
but you've got a brand outthere.
Howie Chan (10:46):
Yes, 100%.
I tell folks this too, unlessyou are three people in a garage
where you've got everything youneed and you don't need
customers, you're precommercial, you're not
interacting with anybody, youhave a brand and you need it.
As long as you're interactingwith someone, even if it's an
(11:07):
investor and not a customer,you're building brand, because
you're interacting, you'releaving impressions, whether you
like it or not, they can hateyou, they can love you.
The worst is, is if they haveno, they don't care about you,
if they're neutral about you.
That's the worst, right?
There's no feeling about you.
Pat Kothe (11:23):
let's talk about managing a brand.
So now we know what, what thatbrand is, that, that feeling,
that, that ability to, havesomebody take action when you're
not there.
How do you actively manage abrand?
Howie Chan (11:38):
Yeah, and then, and I think, when you talk about
managing a brand, first yougotta have the foundation of the
brand to manage.
So a lot of companies startmanaging things, but...
What is the foundation?
What is the core?
What do you believe in?
Why are you here?
Why do you exist?
What's your mission?
So I'm not even just talkingabout a mission statement.
(11:59):
Many companies can havestatements.
But really understand who do youserve?
Why you exist?
What's the secret sauce of whatyou bring to the table?
The value, right?
Value gets thrown around so muchin the Metech world.
what's your value?
What are you providing value?
So what is it?
And how is it different fromwhat's already out there?
I think oftentimes Companiesforget that when you align all
(12:22):
of those things, the inside, theoutside, the value, how you show
up, your persona, your tone ofvoice, that creates a strong
brand foundation for you tomanage.
Pat Kothe (12:34):
You mentioned, value as being, something that's
thrown around and everybodytalks about that.
How do you, let's talk aboutbrand differentiation for a
second.
Because if everybody says, weprovide.
value to our customers.
We're, we're focused on thepatient.
we, provide solutions toclinical problems.
If everybody's saying that, andno one's differentiated, it's a
(12:58):
zero sum game.
nobody's benefiting, by doingthat.
So how do you, how do you comeup with a differentiated brand
that's, makes a difference in,in your customer's mind?
Howie Chan (13:11):
Yeah, I think first you gotta, you gotta have
something that actually doesgive value.
Brand can't solve for that.
You gotta have a product thatdoes something different or
better.
Starts with that, right?
And then once you have that,then it's really having the
audacity to look into what isclearly the most, impactful
(13:33):
thing you can deliver.
Because I always talk about...
You can deliver vitamins or youcan deliver painkillers.
Guess what?
Painkillers sell.
Painkillers do somethingimmediate.
It helps you relieve your pain.
Vitamins?
Ah, I take it today, I take ittomorrow, I miss a day here.
It's okay.
It's fine.
So it really starts from thepeople you're serving.
(13:56):
So whether it's, again, intoday's environment, you got to
look at the hospital system, youneed to look at payers,
obviously, the users, thedecision makers, across all of
your stakeholders, what pain areyou solving for the most
influential decision maker?
That's it.
You start from there.
What is that pain?
And once you understand that,Then you can come up with
(14:17):
something that's different.
Then you can actually saysomething that's unique, that's
specific.
Nobody wants to hear you talkabout value and innovation
anymore.
Show me.
Show me.
How are you delivering value?
How are you being innovative?
It's like a comedian saying, I'mso funny.
Come see my show.
Nah, you show people that you'refunny.
You don't say that you're funny.
Pat Kothe (14:39):
So you talk about your experience at Medtronic.
There was somebody that wasmanaging the master brand at
Medtronic, but you were a cog inthe wheel and you didn't know.
You didn't understand that youhad a piece of that brand
strategy.
And you didn't even know.
Howie Chan (14:57):
Yeah,
Pat Kothe (14:58):
so how does that happen within companies?
how do you make it verticallyintegrated in your company that
people understand what the brandis and help to reinforce and
build on that, that brand story?
Howie Chan (15:12):
Yeah, I think What's amazing about it is, even though
I didn't know it, I was alreadyliving it.
when I say brand, a brand is theexperience of what you have.
And it always starts from theinside.
So in Medtronic's, kudos tothem.
They have a very good...
(15:32):
Onboarding and cultural,experience as you join a
company.
So I think even now, if you,when you join a company, and
back then when Earl Baken, thefounder was alive, you would
attend every single newemployee, induction ceremony,
and you were given a medal, anartifact of the words he wrote
(15:53):
down 50 years ago when hefounded a company to alleviate
pain and extend life.
And that was just a part ofeverybody's...
norm.
So you feel like you're inductedinto a tribe that's really
caring for humanity and caringfor health.
And it was real.
You felt real and you were in itwithout even knowing you were in
(16:14):
it.
So I think the best brands dothat.
They attract the people and thenthey put in place the
foundations for you to feel, foryou to be able to act, for you
to behave the way that thebrands want to be seen in the
world.
Pat Kothe (16:30):
Sometimes we come into a company where there's a
healthy brand, like a Medtronictoward Man's Full Life.
the Vitruvian man, the brandingin Medtronic is strong and long.
And sometimes we come into acompany and we may have a
negative brand image.
that's out there.
So tell me a little bit about,that type of a situation where
(16:54):
you're coming in and maybe youdon't know what the brand is and
maybe you know, or you suspect,and it's not exactly what you
want it to be.
Howie Chan (17:06):
it all starts with leadership.
It all starts from the top.
So I can't help a company if thetop of the pyramid doesn't want
to change.
I can't do that.
I can't make you feel like brandmatters to you.
But if you feel like brandmatters, I can help you change
it.
So it always starts from thetop.
There are definitely situationswhere, when you audit a brand,
(17:27):
you feel like you're A, but thenit turns out you're Z, right?
And when that happens, it'sgoing through the process.
So if you start mapping out theentire journey of whatever
audience set believes you'retrying to change, so for
example, there's customers.
What's going on with thecustomer?
Like, how, what is their journeytoday?
From the moment they seesomething online, or hear
(17:48):
something, or read somethingabout you guys in a journal, all
the way to the touch point of asales meeting, or even to the
way that they use your products,or even how products are being
contracted at a hospital, howyou're able to take it out of
packaging, go through everysingle detail of that journey
and then you start analyzingwhat are the fall downs, what
(18:09):
are the emotional disconnects,what are the areas that's
confusing, what are the negativepoints, and then see if it lines
up to your house or not, yourfoundation or not.
And, often times, Pat...
The foundation is not there, orthe foundation also needs to
change.
Perhaps the company has changed,or perhaps the landscape has
changed, but the story hasn'tchanged.
(18:30):
So once you start lining up thefoundation to the journey, you
start recognizing where theareas that you need to improve,
and that gets into the tacticalbits of, all right, now what do
we need to do?
Is it training?
Is it new materials?
What do we need to do?
Pat Kothe (18:44):
The companies make choices on their branding based
on the bets that they want tomake.
Let me explain that a second.
The most important customer fora company, let's say, they've
got a surgeon preference itemand they want to own the
customer's mind that we have.
(19:04):
quality products that solve a,solve a particular, problem that
they're having, that we're aninnovative company that we,
quickly come up with new devicesthat we're supplying a steady
stream of things that helps.
So that, that's what the, the,what the feeling that they want
to have with that customer, butthen on the supply chain side,
(19:27):
we're holding price.
we're not going to be, playingin the price game like other
people will.
In that customers mind supplychain, customer, they may think,
this company is not willing toplay ball there.
they're not, not very, not verygood in terms of being a good
corporate partner with us, butit's a choice.
(19:50):
that the company is making.
So how do you balance out yourbrand when you've got a multi
headed customer out there and itmay be a positive on one side
and a negative on another.
Howie Chan (20:02):
Yeah, that's a, I think that's a great, that's a
great question, Pat.
and I think every MetTechcompany faces this, right?
There's multi headed, everybodyhas different needs.
I think what's important is,again, is alignment.
How do you point all themessages for all the different
stakeholders back to one thing?
What do you stand for?
(20:23):
What, in the end, do you standfor?
If, in the end, you stand forwe're a company that's let's
say, seeking to make someprocedure better, faster,
whatever it is, but youacknowledge that it's just not
for everybody, then it's adecision that you're making.
But you can never say, hey, wewant to help everyone, but then
(20:45):
we're never willing to budge onprice.
Or we're never willing to budgeanything.
Nothing.
We're budging on nothing.
So I think it's, you just haveto be aligned.
it just be a line.
And for me, for a brand andmarketing person, price is like,
it's like World War III.
it's not about the price.
It's a, it comes back to thisidea if we're talking about
prices, that means they don'tsee, back to the word value,
(21:08):
they don't see it.
They don't feel like it doesanything for them.
And maybe those are not yourright customers.
They're not for you.
go somewhere else.
Pat Kothe (21:18):
There are some companies that are good at
developing, managing theirbrand.
There's some that aren't.
What separates the two?
Howie Chan (21:31):
I think it's case by case basis, right?
But I think the key thing is, doyou even understand or know that
brand is a factor?
I think once if you have someonethat goes in with their eyes
opened Pat, they should be ableto manage it.
Again, when you think about likestartup companies and I work
(21:53):
with startups a lot We're nottalking about tremendous amount
of investment right off the bat.
It's not about that.
It's about the intent.
So if your eyes are open and yousay, Hey, I want to develop a
great brand.
How do we start?
Crawl, walk, run, just likeanything.
You don't, swing.
You don't swing for the fencesat day one.
(22:13):
No, you go for your foundation.
You don't need to spend so much,but just be mindful intent, you
know have intention when youstart these things out what you
often see Pat those that don'tmanage it it's like, all right,
we're gonna create this brandhere.
We're gonna launch this thingthere.
We're gonna develop thesemessages here We're gonna do
that and then you end up withwhat I love to call brand
palooza You have five differentnames all pointing at different
(22:35):
directions the company's thisthing you're saying that and
then depending on the flavor ofthe month we're gonna just talk
about things that is on trend,but they all point in different
directions, right?
And then that's where disasterhits the fan.
That's what you do, that audit,and it comes back.
Wait, I thought we were knownfor this.
Nah, you're actually known fornothing, because you're trying
to stand for everything.
Pat Kothe (22:55):
So you've had the opportunity to manage brands and
do branding.
Inside the medical deviceindustry and outside of the
medical device industry.
And every industry likes tothink that they're unique and
they're different.
Is medical device different?
Howie Chan (23:12):
I think there are certain aspects of it that is
different, but in the end, we'reselling to humans, like we're
talking to humans.
We're trying to influence humanbehavior.
So the tenets of human behaviorare still the same.
but obviously there aredifferences, right?
So, one of the key things, justif you talk about healthcare
versus not, and we can get intoMedDevice.
(23:34):
it drives me crazy whenever ahealthcare company comes to me
and say, Hey, look what it didwith this other agency.
And it comes back with, we'rehere to transform lives, drive
patient outcomes, customers areat our core.
Oh my God, we're so proud ofthat.
It's so great.
And then you're like, everybodysays that, what did they do?
(23:54):
It is not a revelation.
It doesn't even point to whyyou're different or something
that's distinct.
that's healthcare.
And then when you get to the,med device, what's different
about med device and what I loveabout med device is that there
is technology involved, andthere's such an opportunity.
(24:15):
for medtech brands, especiallyif it's for, let's say, chronic
diseases where actually patientsuse those devices, if you think
about like diabetic or glucosemonitors or pumps, drug pumps
and things like that, you getinto the realm of almost
consumer health and there's anopportunity to develop a
relationship and a brand withthe patient themselves.
(24:36):
Not just the physicians, notjust the users.
So I think for medtech, there'sa lot of different components
and that's why, it's a passionof mine.
That's why it is differentbecause there's a lot of
opportunity for you to align allthese different bits and pieces
to create something strong andpowerful.
Pat Kothe (24:52):
Let's talk about nesting of brands for a second
because this is something that'sa little bit...
It can be a little bit tricky.
So you've got a largemultinational company and
they've got many differentdivisions underneath them.
And some may be very innovativeand some may be, 50 year old
technology that, there's still,trotting out there and it's
(25:13):
still a value, but it's, it'sold technology.
And then you've got, again, thedivision that's on the cutting
edge.
And then, so you've got all ofthese different things.
And.
The view of the customer may bedifferent about your company
depending on which which, um,technology that they're involved
with.
(25:34):
somebody is using the 50 yearold one and that's your customer
and they see your brand messagebeing something different than
what they're used to do it.
So how do you deal with theselarge companies where you've got
things nested underneath themand then you've got an
overarching theme that may ormay not be pinpoint to the
(25:57):
customer who's using yourproduct.
Howie Chan (26:00):
For me brands are always changing.
They're always in progress,right?
If it's over, it means, thecompany has shut.
It's done.
So a brand is a story thatcontinues to be told.
So when you think about that andyou think about a brand as a
story, not every character in astory is the protagonist.
(26:25):
There are sub characters, thereare very small characters, there
are different parts to play.
So if you think about aportfolio as different
characters in the story, likeany great story, you hone in on
the ones that are going to makea difference, that are key
players in that story.
For me, it's talking about powerbrands, right?
(26:46):
These are the power divisions orpower products that really are
the flagship of the mothership.
And you place a lot of emphasison those.
Are there these sub players orsmall parts?
Yeah, but you're not going tospend so much time on them.
So there's always going to bethis journey where you have
(27:07):
customers interacting withbrands that are the small
players, those that don't havethe protagonist parts.
But that's okay.
I think as long as everythingsort of points to that main
idea, main thesis for the brand.
it's okay.
And sometimes it's intransition.
So take, for example, I wasworking with a company.
(27:29):
They just got bought by Amgen,the're Horizon Therapeutics.
I worked with them when theywere rebranding.
So what happened there was a lotof their portfolio products were
about primary care.
So these are primary care drugs.
But they wanted to move into theworld of rare diseases.
So while most of their revenuewas generated by primary care
(27:51):
drugs, they're going to placetheir bets in rare disease
drugs.
So the transition point was if Iwas a physician, a hospital
system, a payer that'sinteracting with Horizon
Therapeutics at that precisemoment of transition and change
and you say, Hey, we're allabout rare disease.
I might be like, wait a minute.
Most of your portfolio isprimary care, but that's okay.
(28:14):
Because you start to paint apicture and a vision for it.
This is where we want to go.
This is how we're going to placeour bets.
And we, and this is how italigns with the purpose of our
company.
So within a two, three, four,five year period, they continue
to be good on their promises todeliver on that purpose, it's
(28:35):
okay.
It's fine.
Because again, a brand is notdone.
A brand is a story continued tobe told.
Pat Kothe (28:42):
that's a great example.
There are other examples wherepeople put an aspirational thing
out there, and this is who we'regoing to be, and new management
comes in and it's not what we'regoing to be.
And then you have a misstep,there and causing confusion in
the, into the marketplace.
So if you are going to have anaspirational one, you better
(29:05):
make sure that you're going toexecute on it.
Otherwise you're playing withyour brand.
Howie Chan (29:10):
No, 100%.
And the other thing too, Pat,some companies aim too high.
Some companies aim too high.
So I say there's a Goldilockszone here in terms of like your
aspirations.
It's below the role of yourbrand.
So understand what is the roleof your brand.
Every medtech company wants tocure the world or save every
(29:32):
single patient.
But guess what?
You are not the physician.
You're not treating patients.
You're enabling.
You're a technology.
there is a role for you to beplayed.
So understand what that role is.
Always stay beneath that.
But then at the bottom boundaryis...
It has to have importance.
It has to have some impact.
It has to have some aspirationalqualities to it.
(29:54):
It can't be so low that, Ohyeah, we're here to make widgets
to, decrease the surgery time.
okay, that's great, but it's notvery aspirational.
So let's bump it up a littlebit.
So in between there, that's yourGoldilocks zone.
Pat Kothe (30:07):
That's a, that's really a great point.
And also it gives you a littlebit of wiggle room too, in case
you over, do your expectations.
You can sneak it up a littlebit.
If you underperform, you cansneak it down a little bit.
You don't look like an idiot forbeing too high or too low.
Howie Chan (30:26):
Yeah, and I think to your point, Pat, in the end, you
gotta commit to it.
You gotta deliver on it.
You gotta commit.
You may never get there, but yougotta show you're moving towards
that.
you gotta show that you'reedging towards what you're
aspiring to be.
Pat Kothe (30:41):
Things have, have changed, how companies are
behaving in the marketplace andbehaving socially, just, over,
over the past, past decade orso.
It used to be, companies weregoing, we're going to stick to
what we do and we're going totalk messaging about what we do
and we're not going to weigh inon politics.
(31:02):
We're not going to weigh in onsocial issues.
We're just going to stay in ourlane.
Things have changed and it'scausing some issues out, out in
the marketplace.
Bud Light gets hammered forsomething that they did on the
social side.
Other companies, get praised forwhat they do by one group of
people and then reviled by, bythe other group of, group of
(31:25):
people.
We've got lightning rods inhere, and we're a divided, a
divided world, a dividedmarketplace.
But there are some expectationsthat people have of what a
company should do when they,when something big happens.
How should companies view someof these issues?
(31:46):
What's the best strategy thatthey can employ when you've got
a major issue that happens outthere?
And.
The expectation is they're goingto weigh in with saying
something.
Howie Chan (31:58):
Yeah.
that's such a good question,Pat, and it's such a, it's such
an important conversation,right?
in today's world, like you said,there are things that come and
go.
There are big lightning rodevents.
I'm in Minneapolis, right?
when the George Floyd eventhappened, a lot of issues, a lot
of blowback, a lot of need forcompanies to act.
(32:23):
So I take a page from sort ofpersonal development because I
feel like leadership, personaldevelopment, and brands are all
tied in the same, in the samevein.
So when you're faced with apersonal challenge, when you're
faced with something personal,how do you decide to act one way
versus another?
(32:44):
First you got to know yourself.
You got to have some selfawareness because in the end, we
need to act congruently with ourbeliefs and who we are.
And when we don't do that, badthings happen.
As a person, you don't feel goodabout yourself, you're maybe
your mental health starts todecline, but as a company, you
(33:05):
start to get, like you said,these, what it's...
mass exodus of employees orcustomers, ditching your brand.
So I think you have tounderstand, first of all, who
you are as a company.
So what I mean very concretelyis what are the beliefs that you
hold true?
What are the values that you sayyou abide by?
(33:25):
How do you live?
How do you survive?
What, why do you exist?
All that thing, all the thingsthat we talked about foundations
for a brand, that's going tohelp you decide, do I engage?
Do I not?
So if the culture of the companyis such that, we really care
about our people are soimportant and you say that left
and right, you put it all overyour HR, page, you gotta act
(33:48):
accordingly.
So if things like that happen,you have to immediately talk to
your employees.
What's happening?
What do we think?
What's our stance?
And then from an outsideperspective, you work with them
to figure out what do we want totalk about outside of the
confines of the company?
Is it going to impact ourcustomers?
(34:09):
Does it make sense to do that?
If we lose this part of ourcustomers because we make a
stand, is that okay?
You first got to understandthat, and then you make
decisions.
I think what gets companies intotrouble...
is they think they're a certainway and they just view it as
like a marketing campaign likeBud Light for example.
What do they stand for as acompany and brand?
(34:31):
Sure, they have been supportingthese groups for a while but
very differently.
It's not a public nationalcampaign of support.
Again, I'm not saying it's rightor wrong, you just have to
understand who you are, what youstand for and the consequences
of saying or not sayingsomething and then you do it.
Pat Kothe (34:52):
The easiest thing to do sometimes is not to say
anything.
And that's been the case for alot of companies for a lot of
years.
But there's cost to that too.
And that cost, as you said, areyou gonna, are you going to look
bad in your employees?
Hey, you're not standing up forme.
I'm this type of person.
This is important to me.
(35:12):
stand up for me.
or it could be in yourcustomers, what your customer
says, but recognizing thatthere's going to be a cost to it
is also something that we haveto weigh when we make these
decisions.
So sometimes, silence, has acost to it.
But taking a stand has a cost toit as well.
(35:33):
I like your idea of going in andtalking to your employees and
exploring those things, butthere's a time pressure on some
of these things too, because youdon't want to be, a month later
after you've done all of yourinternal stuff, come out and
say, here's my statement onGeorge Floyd or, pick the, uh,
uh, the topic.
You have to be somewhat timelyas well, which kind of is hard
(35:55):
when you're trying to getfeedback from your employees
too.
Howie Chan (35:59):
no doubt.
No doubt.
And that's why, there, there arepeople that do a lot of these
things.
that's their jobs for crisiscommunications, for example.
They have plans in place, right?
having a process, having donescenarios like you gotta do all
this stuff and prep.
You gotta make your friendsbefore, bad things happen.
All this should be done already,right?
(36:19):
So, understanding where thenation's gonna go, all these
different things that could popup, understanding these
scenarios and plan for them, andwhat you're gonna say, if you're
gonna say something, shouldalready be there.
By taking a stand, it reallycomes back to alignment.
Because if it aligns with yourpurpose...
You will feel that you'recompelled to do something.
(36:40):
Because if you don't, like yousay, if you keep quiet, you're
not actually delivering on whatyou say you are, or who you say
you are.
Pat Kothe (36:47):
When we look at things from a company
standpoint, we can make, makethose decisions on what the
company press release is goingto be and how the company is
going to do things.
But companies are made up ofpeople and leaders at, at
companies, have their ownpersonal beliefs, which may or
may not be completely alignedwith the company line, how do
(37:13):
you talk to companies and CEOs,CFOs, c-suite people, anybody in
that company that is gonna takea stand on a particular issue?
How do you talk to a companyabout aligning or not aligning
people's personal opinionsversus the company's opinion?
Howie Chan (37:37):
Again, first and foremost, it comes back to self
awareness, right?
It comes back to, you beingaligned with who you are as a
leader.
So what are your personalbeliefs and what are the
company's beliefs?
in the end, if a company isdoing a great job, they're
actually explicitly stating whowe are and who we are not.
And if you are a leader that hasbeliefs that are actually very
different, you ought, youshouldn't work there.
(37:59):
If not, it's going to be a verypainful journey for you.
It's just being honest, right?
You shouldn't work at a placewhere you don't align with.
Because if not, you're just youhave to lie to yourself every
single day.
And nobody wants that.
So that's number one.
And then the second thing is,depending on what you need to
say and what you want to say,guess what?
You are an employee of thecompany.
(38:20):
You should never denigrate theindustry.
You should never say anythingbad about your company because
you are actually an ambassador,right?
You're a leader at the company.
You're an ambassador for thecompany.
So if you were to say anything,it should go along the lines of
what the company's beliefs are.
You should.
And then, again, you shouldnever get to a point where you
(38:42):
are pissing off customers,that's using your company's
products today, because that'snot your job.
In the end, it's a job.
And if you don't like it, youcan change your job, and you can
quit your job, and you can saywhatever you want.
I think there is a mutualresponsibility, the company
towards you, and you towards thecompany.
Pat Kothe (38:59):
It's a really hard thing, Howie.
It is.
And I'll push back on you herebecause, we've got issues that
are split 50 50, within ourcountry.
and if the company takes astance, that means that 50
percent of the people don'tagree with it.
Or if they take no stance and,an employee takes a stance on
(39:20):
social media they're going totick off 50, 50 percent of the
population that's out there andthat leads into your brand.
If you say something, I supportthis cause, that cause, 50
percent don't, it will affectyour brand.
and we are so out there with ouropinions.
(39:45):
And so many people are weighingin on things that they may or
may not have informed opinionson, but it's just what our
society is doing.
And the company brand may paythe price for the individual
decisions that are being made byit, by somebody.
and they may think that they'rein total alignment with
(40:06):
everybody in the company, butthey may not be.
Howie Chan (40:10):
It is tricky.
It is tricky, isn't it?
again, in today's world,everybody is, is part of the
media.
Everybody can't be a mouthpiece,right?
I think in the end, you talkabout how do you manage your
brand, you have to have thatalignment.
You have to be able toexplicitly state who you are as
a company.
(40:30):
You just have to.
just...
tactical example, someone thatworks, for Nike versus someone
that works for Hyatt.
Which individual do you feellike they know whether they
align with their company valuesand brand or not, right?
I have no clue what the Hyattbrand is.
(40:51):
I have no clue, don't understandwhat their beliefs are.
But if you work for Nike, you'repretty sure what their beliefs
are, because they put theirmoney where their mouth is.
They say, this is who we are,this is what we're for, and then
that's it.
But even Nike don't, they don'ttake every stand on every issue,
like you said.
So it has to be an issue thatviolates, that comes into close
(41:16):
proximity of your values as abrand.
Again, we don't know what theydo internally, so I would reckon
because they care about theirpeople, they probably talk about
this internally, but as anoutward communication, you don't
have to tackle everything,neither should you, because some
of those have nothing to do withyour brand.
You also find companies thatwant to tackle everything, but
(41:38):
dude, you're not a non profitthat's trying to, save the
world.
You're a company in the end.
So again, it really depends onwhat is your role.
How can you be more explicit sothat your employees that work
for you know what you stand for?
And that's the best you can do,Pat.
And, there's no right or wrong,too.
This is also a journey.
You can mess up one day, andthen you say, I'm sorry, I
(42:00):
messed up, And then you move on.
We are all learning how to bebetter citizens in this new
world.
And I think it's okay to admitthat it is a journey.
And sometimes, you can't be 100percent perfect every single
day.
Pat Kothe (42:16):
As you were describing that master brand,
that the top umbrella of who youare, and really understanding
and thinking through what do youstand for?
What do you want to stand for?
Then it makes these decisionseasier.
If you don't have that clarity.
If you've not gone through andhad full clarity on what that
(42:40):
is, that's what makes thesedecisions much more tricky
because you have, you have not,you've not come to terms in your
own mind with who you are.
And now every decision thatevery new thing that pops up,
you've got to rethink and.
Does it fit?
Doesn't, does it not fit?
(43:00):
It becomes much more problematicas opposed to I know who I am.
Now let me, let me makedecisions based on that truth.
Howie Chan (43:10):
You probably face this all the time as a CEO of a
company.
Like any leader, right?
Whether it's a CEO, whether it'sa sports team leader, whether
it's a president of a country,you're going to be faced with
very hard decisions.
And in the end, if you knowyourself, you know your values,
you know what you stand for,you're going to be able to make
(43:30):
these decisions.
Because again, a hard decisionis just hard.
It is just, it just is.
There's no simple thing, whetheryou choose this path or that the
strong leaders are able to picka path, not because they know
it'll turn out well, but theyknow that it's aligned to who
they are.
That's it.
Pat Kothe (43:47):
I'll give you a, an example.
We're talking on a podcast.
I've got, podcasts, talk to alot of different people.
I'm also CEO of a company.
Covid Hits.
We've got an issue withvaccinations, I'm CEO of a
company and our customers areemergency department physicians
and clinicians in the emergencydepartment.
(44:08):
Guess what?
I want to protect the, protectmy customers.
that's who I'm, most, interestedin is aligning with their needs
and how we can support them.
People not getting vaccinateddoesn't support them because
they walk into the ED and theypass this on.
This is the height of the thing.
And I also know that, there area large percentage of the
(44:32):
country that does not supportvaccines.
Now to some of the listeners outthere, if you don't support
vaccines and you're part of themedical device community, I
question your commitment toscience.
Okay.
I probably just lost somelisteners right there.
Okay.
I probably just did.
It's a decision that I'll maketoday because that's how I feel
(44:56):
as an individual.
And I also feel that, we've got,a commitment to our fellow human
beings and public health to notpass these things on.
So that's a personal decisionthat I'm making as a CEO of a
company to come out and saythis.
So I could lose some listenersoff a podcast.
(45:19):
Who cares?
Is it going to affect mybusiness?
That's another decision that,that I've got to put in when I'm
having, uh, you know, put it,putting this information out
there.
Howie Chan (45:32):
It's absolutely true, right?
So I think making a stand, youshould feel the compulsion to do
that.
Just like what you just talkedabout, right?
I can feel the energy and I canfeel the intensity because it's
a must do.
It's not like, ah, you know,maybe we don't act on this.
Maybe we don't say anything.
(45:53):
No, this is something that youstand for.
This is something you believein.
You have to do it.
It's a must do.
So protecting your customer,it's a must do.
Vaccination, it's a must dobecause this is what we believe
in.
This is who we are.
And, I always say this too, likecompanies need to lift their
values at the darkest times.
(46:14):
Not just at the brightest spots.
Values are not just written onthe walls for fun.
It has to be lived in thedarkest of times, which means
sacrifice.
That's values.
You have to be willing to losesomething.
Because if not, it's notvaluable.
That's the definition of theword.
So you hit it right on the head.
Pat Kothe (46:34):
Great way of looking at it.
I love, I love that, thatsaying, I love that analogy.
Character is revealed indifficult times.
Our messaging can be revealed indifficult times.
How we come out to the worldwith our beliefs and our values
(46:55):
happens when we're in difficulttimes.
Thanks for bringing that up.
That was really a good way toview that.
Howie Chan (47:04):
Yeah, I mean, it always reminds me of, I think
people talk about this all thetime with Nike's ad with Colin
Kaepernick, right?
So in his book, Shoe Dog, PhilKnight always talks about the
moment where they brought himthis idea where, Hey, we need to
do something and we need to workwith Colin because he's been
standing up for something,right?
So the idea is, believe insomething, even if it means
(47:25):
sacrificing everything.
And Phil Knight said, we must dothis.
This is something we have to do,even though it's going to piss,
probably piss a lot of peopleoff that we're taking a stand,
but we have to do, it's a must.
And guess what, right?
Tons of people burned theirshoes.
If you remember, like peoplewere going crazy.
(47:46):
But those that love them boughtmore shoes.
Those that love them said thatis exactly who we are.
You're exactly right.
We've been with you this wholetime and the people that love
them more.
Pat Kothe (47:59):
There are lessons that we learn in one part of our
life that we can apply to otherparts of our life.
So you're a branding expert.
You deal with company brands,but we all have individual
brands as well.
we're all, and we talk about it,the company reputation or the
personal reputation, just,switch out the word brand and,
you know, it's, it's reputation.
(48:19):
So how can we apply some of thelessons that you've learned in
company branding to our ownindividual branding and our own
individual reputations?
Howie Chan (48:28):
Thanks for the tee up.
I'm actually coaching folks nowone on one on individual brands,
personal brands and you'reabsolutely spot on.
I think reputation is a good wayto think about it.
Sometimes people don't like tosee themselves as a brand
because they're like, I'm not aproduct, I'm not up for sale.
No, you're not for sale.
(48:49):
But when people hear your name,what do you want people to think
about you, right?
Are you a tireless worker or areyou someone that slack off?
are you someone that I want towork with because you bring joy
into our work?
Are you a curmudgeon that nobodywants to touch with a 10 foot
pole?
Who are you?
So I think, just like what wetalked about for companies, I
(49:12):
think for individuals, clarityis important.
What do you value?
What do you really care about?
So when I work with, myindividual clients, it's really
about, again, aligning all ofthese things.
Because we're all a product ofour environment.
We're a product of how we grewup.
We're a product of how ourparents taught us, the teachers
(49:34):
that we've had, the careers thatwe've led.
How do all these things line up?
what in the end is your secretsauce?
What do you bring to the world?
What value do you deliver tothose around you?
And it starts from that.
A lot of that is internal work,Pat.
So again, I don't do this witheverybody because there are
(49:55):
people that are more self awarethan others, and some aren't
even willing to open that box tolook inside.
If you are willing to lookinside, I would say that, like,
start writing down what do youstand for, who are you, and why
are you here, why do you exist,and then really craft out
something about your superpower,right?
What is that spark that youuniquely bring to the world?
(50:18):
And I think once you understandit, the rest is almost tactical.
Pat, when you show up for work,when you show up in an
interview, what would you say?
What are the things?
What are the stories that showand showcase that personality
and that truth and thatsuperpower and value?
So start from there.
Pat Kothe (50:37):
And as we talked about earlier, you already have
a brand.
You already have a reputation.
You may not know what it is.
You may have to do a brandaudit.
You may have to do that 360, or270, assessment to know what
people think of you, becauseonly then can you attack and
change and rebrand or work onyour, your reputation'cause
(51:01):
that's a difficult, you know,it's, you're creating a brand is
is one thing.
Managing a brand or rebranding,it's a different animal.
Howie Chan (51:10):
Yeah.
And you bring up something so,so important and what I've seen
too.
I think you talked about, whatmakes successful companies
successful and what makes notsuccessful companies fail.
I think just like individuals.
The ones that are successful,and can manage brands well, or
even manage themselves as abrand well, are those that's
willing to look in a mirror andbe okay with what they see.
(51:34):
It's okay.
Look in the black box.
Do that audit.
Bring up the mirror.
If it doesn't look like what youwant it to look like, good.
Time to change.
If it looks like exactly whatyou think it's going to look
like, fantastic.
Keep doing what you're doing.
In any case, there's, there's nobad blood.
You can change if you need to.
You don't have to change if youdon't want to, but be okay with
(51:55):
what in the mirror.
A lot of times people get sofreaked out, they don't even
want to see the mirror.
They don't even want to do anaudit.
They say, I know everything.
I know it all.
I know exactly what my customersthink of me.
Or, they say, no, whatever youbrought back in the mirror?
Nah, that's not true.
Alright, I don't want to talkabout this anymore.
See ya! To your own detriment.
Pat Kothe (52:14):
If you're on a desert island and it's just you.
Who cares what anybody elsethinks?
It's what you think.
it's, that's the only thing thatmatters.
None of us live on a desertIsland.
So we're all trying to dosomething.
We're all trying to influence,other people.
We're all trying to move ourown, uh, self ahead in this
(52:35):
world.
And we have to do it with otherpeople in mind.
And we have to understand howare we really being viewed?
And as you said, are we thecurmudgeon?
Are we the, the Debbie Downer?
Are we, somebody who brings joyinto the room when you walk into
the room?
That's going to help to buildwhatever you're trying to do.
That, that reputation that, thatexists within that person's mind
(52:59):
of you when you're not there isgonna, lead to how effective
you're going to be.
Howie Chan (53:05):
Yeah.
And I think the last part aboutthat is, you gotta then be able
to craft that story, right?
We talked about earlier on, abrand is a story.
You gotta be able to craft...
that story, so as a person, whatis your story?
What is a story that you cantell, whether it's a
professional one, a personalone, that people listen to and
be like, Yeah, I understand younow.
I get you.
I get you.
(53:25):
Just like a company tells theirstory.
What is their story?
Be very intentional of craftingthat and then, repeat it again
and again.
Pat Kothe (53:35):
Howie, you've got a couple of things that, that
you're doing right now.
You've got a podcast calledHealthy Brand, contains some
great information on branding,not only within medical device,
but from other areas as well.
And you've got, you've got, uh,your own consulting group that
(53:55):
helps with branding.
Talk to me a little bit aboutthe podcast, a little bit about
your company and how you helpcustomers.
Howie Chan (54:01):
Healthy Brand Consulting is, is my consulting
group.
So what we do is we work withcompanies, again, large, small,
doesn't really matter.
They're usually at a point ofinflection.
So when there's misalignment,when the outside doesn't match
the inside, how do we help themalign these things?
So sometimes it's a tweak instrategy, a new narrative, and
you're done.
Sometimes it's, all right, howdo we refresh?
(54:23):
Look and feel.
How do we develop a campaign?
But it's all towards a businessgoal, right?
For me, it's all about what'syour goal as a business and
let's help you get there.
the podcast is really a passionproject, Pat.
I think like you, when I startedthe podcast, I wanted to have
something where I can meetpeople, talk to really smart and
(54:44):
interesting folks that lives atthe intersection of health and
brand.
And a lot of times I might leanon one side versus the other.
Like I've got founders, thatreally have found this sort of
healthcare companies that I'dlike to get their take on what
brand is for them.
Or I talked to brand strategiststhat have worked with the
largest brands in the world andget their take.
(55:06):
On what branding and health caremeans for them.
So for me, it's really at theintersection.
and I have been having a lot offun talking to folks and
learning about them.
and then what I also do is I'vestarted to do individual
coaching as well.
It all started from peopleasking me for how, Hey, do you
work with people?
Cause I'm very active onLinkedIn.
And that has been, again,something that I've, I love
(55:28):
doing, helping people outindividually.
So I'm doing that too.
Pat Kothe (55:31):
So, Howie, thanks so much for, leading us through
this, uh, very interestingdiscussion on company branding,
personal branding, and how, youknow, we get into our customer's
mind and, and how we're viewedwithin our customer's mind.
I'm thinking about, somebodywho's, in a company and they're
now responsible for branding.
Either they got the light andsaid, geez, we don't, we need to
(55:54):
have somebody responsible forbranding.
or, they're a new company andthey're thinking about, how do
they want to be perceived in thecustomer's mind?
What are a few of the thingsthat they should be doing first?
Howie Chan (56:07):
Yeah, I think first, first step is, What do you, what
have you got?
What's the current state?
What's the current state?
So have you got documents?
Have you have anything writtendown?
What's explicitly said aboutyour company?
Again, the foundational pieces,right?
What do you believe in?
What are your values?
All that stuff.
And then do that audit.
Do that audit, man, What doother people see in you?
(56:29):
What's their experience of you?
And then once you see that, youhave the alignment or
misalignment to work on andthat's it.
Again, it doesn't mean you gottado a new logo, it doesn't mean
you gotta have a new campaign.
Doesn't need to.
You get to figure out and decidehow to activate on a set of
changes that you need to have.
(56:49):
But I think the first step isthat.
And then once you understand themisalignment, get a brand
strategist.
You know, get a brand strategistto help you put everything
together.
Make these critical decisions upfront before you spend any money
designing anything.
Don't do that.
Don't pour your money down thedrain.
Have a strategy and then work onthe deliverables later.
Pat Kothe (57:12):
One of the things I love about hosting this podcast
is I get to learn alongside you.
I consider myself to be prettysavvy on brand.
But I learned several things inthis conversation and will
reframe a few others in how Ilook at branding.
My thanks to Howie for helpingall of us understand how brand
(57:35):
can and should work for us.
A few of my takeaways.
First, a brand is a decisionmaking shortcut.
Howie said, does someone feelabout you when you're not in the
room?
Not think, but how does somebodyfeel about you when you're not
(57:57):
in the room?
Just think about how that weighsinto their decision on how they
view you and your company, andyour products.
Secondly, building a brand witha solid foundation.
Probably the most importantthing that came out of this,
this discussion is building froma solid foundation.
(58:19):
So how do you do that?
Well, Howie gave us a lot ofquestions to ask and until we
answer these ourselves, wereally can't go forward to build
on top of this, build on yourfoundation.
So the questions, what do youbelieve in?
Why are you here?
Why do you exist?
What is your mission?
(58:39):
What's your secret sauce?
What are you bringing to thetable?
What is your value?
And how is it different thanwhat's already out there?
Finally, I really like theconversation we talked about the
Goldilocks Zone.
And that is, you're trying tohave an aspirational quality of
your business.
(59:00):
But if the aspirations are toohigh That's not good.
Uh, so it has to be believableand achievable, but it can't be
so low that it's irrelevant toyour customer.
So there's that Goldilocks zone.
Once you, once you have that,then you have to commit to it
and do it.
And just remember this, peoplewant to engage with people and
(59:25):
companies who are striving toachieve.
Thank you for listening.
Make sure you get episodesdownloaded to your device
automatically by liking orsubscribing to the Mastering
Medical Device podcast whereveryou get your podcasts.
Also, please spread the word andtell a friend or two to listen
to the Mastering Medical Devicepodcast as interviews like
(59:46):
today's can help you become amore effective medical device
leader.
Work hard, be kind.
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