October 1, 2024 • 44 mins
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Ever wonder how emotions can either boost or derail your leadership? Monica and Sejal sit down with their colleague and friend Amy Jen Su, co-founder and managing partner of Paravis Partners and author of the Harvard Business Review classics The Leader You Want to Be and Own the Room. Amy brings timeless wisdom from her books, sharing how leaders can embrace authenticity and emotional control to thrive in today’s fast-changing world.
We also dive into the big question: How do emotions either hold you back or take your leadership to new heights? Amy shares game-changing strategies for emotional mastery, teaching you how to recognize your personal triggers and pivot away from common traps. She’ll explain how tools like personal markers can help you use your emotions as valuable data rather than as an excuse for negative reactions.
In this episode, we also talk about balancing leadership value and passion—something that’s never been more important. Amy walks us through practical prioritization strategies like Stephen Covey’s urgent vs. important matrix, plus her own take: the high-contribution, high-passion matrix. You’ll hear tips on how to delegate tasks that don’t fuel your fire, so you can stay focused on what truly drives you.
We wrap up with some real talk on leadership development and career transitions, including how to find your voice and establish your presence as a leader. Don’t miss this episode packed with actionable tips, inspiring stories and timeless wisdom that will take your leadership to the next level.
Georgianna Moreland - Creator, Executive Producer & Managing Editor;
Matt Stoker - Editor
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Amy Jen Su (00:03):
Like many of the listeners out there right, I was
working in a consulting firm.
I was working 100 hours a week.
I assumed I was going to getthe next big management position
I thought I was up for and Ihad that infamous performance
review where my manager saidthanks for working hard.
You've contributed a lot thisyear, but we're not ready to
promote you.
Welcome to.
Georgianna Morelan (00:22):
Masterstroke with Monica Enid and Sejal
Petrzak.
Conversations with founders,ceos and visionary leaders in
tech and beyond.
Sejal Pietrzak (00:40):
I am so excited to have Amy Jen Sue here today
with us.
We are so thrilled to have you,Amy.
Thanks for joining us.
Amy Jen Su (00:50):
Thanks for having me , Sejal and Monica.
It's so great to be here withyou both and huge
congratulations on your podcast.
I've been following along,listening to episodes and I just
love the valuable insights thatyou are bringing to the world,
so I'm super delighted to behere.
Sejal Pietrzak (01:07):
Well, thank you.
Well, let me introduce Amy toour listeners.
One of the reasons Monica and Iwanted to do a podcast is to
bring concepts and ideas thathave really helped both of us to
a wider group of people, andtoday I'm confident we're going
to deliver that because we havea very important guest, amy Amy
(01:28):
Jensu.
So she is the co-founder andmanaging partner of Paravis
Partners, a boutique executivecoaching and leadership
development firm.
For almost two decades, amy haspartnered with investment
professionals, ceos including meand executives to sustain and
increase their leadershipeffectiveness as they drive
(01:49):
organizational change andtransformation.
Amy also serves on boards offour companies and she brings
perspective to those boardstowards leadership scaling,
culture and capabilities,succession planning,
organizational architecture andaligning strategy with execution
.
She was most recently appointedas an advisory director for
(02:11):
Berkshire Partners.
Amy's also written two books.
They're amazing books.
You've got to read them.
One is called the Leader youWant to Be Five Essential
Principles to Bringing Out yourBest Self Every Day, and that
was published in 2019.
And then a Washington Postbestseller Own the Room,
(02:32):
discover your Signature Voice toMaster your Leadership Presence
.
And that was about a decade agoand it's still flying off the
shelves.
I loved both of those books,amy.
Amy's a frequent contributor toHarvard Business Review Online
and has been featured in avariety of media outlets,
including the Wall StreetJournal, fast Company, forbes
MarketWatch.
I'm so excited to have you, amy, and we are looking forward to
(02:56):
a great show.
Thanks again, guys.
I'm so excited too, Amy, tell ushow you work with people in
trying to grow, as they'retrying to grow and become better
leaders.
What do you do in the coachingand leadership practice?
Amy Jen Su (03:12):
I, you know, when I look back on these 20 years as
an executive advisor and coach,I feel so fortunate to have met
leaders like both of you whounderstand that they are trying
to transform their companies,transform whole industries, grow
those companies and industries.
And in the work that I do, I'mjust so lucky I've worked with
(03:35):
leaders who recognize that, asyou're growing and scaling a
company, you have to grow andscale yourself, and so
practically what that means is,you know, again, when I work
with folks, we do two things.
One is we take honest stock ofwhere we are today.
Right, who are you?
What are your values, what doyou stand for?
What's your own leadershipvision for yourself?
(03:56):
What are the skills you bringto bear, what are all the
contributions and impact you'vemade Because the truth is the
clock's never at zero and impactyou've made because the truth
is the clock's never at zero.
We are standing on a hugeplatform and foundation.
So step one in working withleaders is always let's really
understand the base and let'scelebrate who you are
authentically and who your bestself is.
(04:17):
And then let's look at theouter game around you.
How's the game changing?
Are there tailwinds?
Are there headwinds?
What's going on in the economy,what's going on changing?
Are there tailwinds, are thereheadwinds?
What's going on in the economy?
What's going on in thecompetitive landscape you play
in, and so, therefore, what arethe new knowledge areas you need
For all everyone listening,think about the businesses
(04:37):
you're in and what new skillscould you gain to be more
effective and contribute evenmore?
I feel like the folks I workwith really see themselves
almost as like star athletes whowent from D1 to playing
National League, to playingWorld Cup, and understand that
in each of those stages, I'vegot to grow, I've got to get
(04:58):
better, while still celebratingand not beating myself up at the
same time.
Sejal Pietrzak (05:02):
Absolutely.
I love that analogy in terms ofmoving from D1 to professional.
Monica Enand (05:08):
Yeah, I find that to be a really helpful analogy,
amy, because I have to tell youthat you know, sejal and I are
both fortunate enough to havegone to workshops where you were
working with a group of leaders, and the first one I went to
was before the book the Leaderyou Want to Be.
You were actually working onthe materials for the book and I
(05:30):
have to say that the firstthing that occurred to me while
I was there was wow, there is aton of work that goes into
writing a book like this.
I always thought, like, oh, youjust have all these ideas and
then write them down.
But I realized how much workyou were putting in and how much
testing you were doing withyour ideas, with real life
(05:53):
executives, real life businesssituations, and iterating and
honing those materials.
So that was the first thingthat occurred to me.
But then the second thing thatwas critical to me was what you
said about sort of not beatingyourself up.
So I'll tell you about myreaction, because I walked into
this room of amazinglyaccomplished CEOs, thinking I
(06:15):
was the only person who, youknow, really hadn't achieved my
best self and really kind ofthought about those times that I
didn't feel like I was at mybest as really a personal
failing, frankly, and really didused to beat myself up quite a
(06:37):
bit and it was really quite aremarkable transition for me to
hear you talk about Leader A andLeader B.
So can you introduce Leader Aand Leader B to our audience?
Amy Jen Su (06:49):
Happy to Monica and, truthfully, as I share with the
audience this idea of Leader Aand Leader B, I think I'm always
my own first test case where alot of this is autobiographical,
where, you know, I started tonotice within myself and, as
Monica, as you said, and Sejal,when I was with groups of
executives like yourself or outcoaching with folks, I kept
(07:11):
hearing about two differentparts of every human being.
You interact with that.
All of us have a leader A partof ourselves where you know you
wake up in the morning you feellike your best self.
It doesn't matter whatchallenge is thrown your way.
Somehow you're holding abroader perspective, you're
meeting the moment, you'rediscerning the moment, the
(07:31):
audience, and you're bringingthe appropriate tool or voice or
skill set you need to to meetthe challenge.
And we've all had those magicmoments where you feel like
you're your best self, you're inflow and I call that kind of
leader a moments.
And then we all frankly have aton of leader B moments where
you know you kind of wake up onthe wrong side of the bed.
(07:52):
Maybe you didn't get a greatnight's sleep, maybe it's a
particularly stressful week and,for whatever reason, our
perspective is just a littlemore myopic, we might be taking
things a little more personally.
It's a little harder to evenfind the energy to be your best
self, and so next thing you knowyou're wildly reactive and then
you're not meeting the momentas constructively, authentically
(08:15):
or effectively as you can.
And the truth is, the good newsis I don't know if you both
remember from the workshop wewere in I think the most popular
ratio was like 60-40, a to B,and I also felt so much relief
that no one is superhuman.
100 to 0 is actually a surefireway to end up in leader B.
(08:36):
And so the real question is howmuch self-awareness can we hold
moment to moment in the naturalwax and wane of both?
I'm in a job of high privilegeand I'm in a job of extreme
challenge where at any moment Icould feel exhilaration and then
walk into the next meeting andfeel pain, right.
(08:57):
And so the real question is doI have awareness that that's
happening?
What's my center of gravity?
Because as a leader, I have bigimpact on other people, and
when those moments come, do Ihave enough self-compassion and
kindness for myself to call ball, hit the pause button and sort
of say I need to start thismoment over, right?
(09:18):
So really, leader A and leader Bwas meant to just describe the
human condition.
So, sejal, to your openingquestion.
When I work with leaders, it'salmost a twofold coaching
program.
One, I wanna get to know yourleader A self and all the
conditions, practices, rituals,everything you know about
yourself that makes you feelgreat and brings your best.
(09:39):
And I also want to know all thetriggers, all the conditions,
all the situations where yourAchilles heel, or where you're
most vulnerable to showing up,is not your best self.
And if we just know those twothings, like you're invincible.
Monica Enand (10:01):
The second part of the title of the book is, as
Sejal was reading the title, Iguess there's always a first
part and a second part, butsecond part is five essential
principles to bringing out yourbest self every day.
And it really caught me likeevery day, because you know
Sejal and I have talked abouthow you know Sejal and I have a
lot in common, but what we'velearned through getting to know
(10:22):
each other is that we arecompletely different in many,
many ways, and one of the waysis that she is a much more
even-keeled, I think justnaturally she was born or is
just a more even-keeled human.
I am more excitable, I am.
I mean, what comes with thoseexcitable moments, which
(10:43):
sometimes work to my advantage,is, you know, the lows are there
as well and I'm not quite aseven keeled and I've been trying
hard to like.
Okay, I want to be authentic, Iwant to be as part of my
leadership practice.
I don't want to suppress myfeelings or shove them down,
which I know is a habit for alot of people, and it's a really
.
It's not a habit that'ssustainable.
(11:04):
It's toxic over the long run.
So what do I do with thoseleader B days and how do I
balance like being authenticallymyself and how I should handle
those situations?
Amy Jen Su (11:16):
Great question, monica.
First and foremost, I'm a hugefan of authenticity, as you both
know, right?
So, to address the first partof your question, in the world
where we all index differentlyon the world of emotion and
emotiveness, right, monica,you'll always sort of be on the
higher end of the dial of thatand there'll be situations where
(11:38):
you have to play with that dialand bring yourself to more
composure.
And, sejal, my guess is, youprobably naturally have high
composure, can be calm in thestorm, but there's times, on the
big stage, we need you to dialit up and be more passionate,
right?
So always start with your ownbaseline authenticity and dial
up and down as you need.
And then I think the secondpart of your question is I'm
(11:59):
with you, monica, I am not a fanof suppressing, repressing,
denying feelings, because guesswhat, we telegraph them and they
leak out all over people anyway, and then we're not clean,
clear and professional.
So I'm with you, authenticityis actually what is the feeling
I'm feeling?
What is that really about?
(12:20):
And then the question I have isthen what are you going to do
about it, right?
So if I'm in leader A mode, Ihave a day where I'm feeling
feelings, let's say I'm feelinganxious.
Let's say I'm feeling feelings.
Let's say I'm feeling anxious.
Let's say I'm getting impatient.
Let's say I'm starting to feeloverwhelmed.
There's nothing wrong withthose feelings.
In fact, I'd rather you knowthat's what's happening.
But then the question is do youuse those emotions as
(12:43):
information or do you use themfor persecution and
justification?
So, do your emotions have youor do you have it Right?
So let's take that same example.
I'm having a week where I'mback to back, I have
deliverables, the marketheadwinds are working against me
, I'm behind plan and behindbudget.
I've got to go to the board andsay that I'm just not having a
(13:06):
great day, right.
If I'm leader A, I recognizethat.
I can name it, I'm conscious ofit and in fact, before I go
blow up on my team or someonegets on the wrong side of me, I
get up, I go outside, I go for awalk around the block and then
I come back and realize okay,here's what I'm actually
bothered about.
Let me go handle A, b and C.
(13:27):
If I'm in leader B mode, I havethose same emotions, but now
they justify how I feel.
Right Now I'm angry, I'mjustified, I feel persecuted.
I can't believe my board isalways breathing down my neck.
Why don't they understand thatoperational reality and what I
need to achieve?
You know, ambition andcapability aren't matching.
(13:49):
And my EA walks in and at thatmoment I unleash my fury on an
innocent team member that wasn'texpecting to kind of get their
head bitten off, but they did.
And now, because I'm a leader,the coefficient of my, my ripple
effect, is quite high.
So I have negatively impactedsomebody else.
So I don't have an issue withthe emotion and I love the
(14:11):
authenticity of it.
It's then, what do we asleaders do with that emotion?
I say let's use it asinformation, really valuable
information.
Feelings, intuition, spideysense, discomfort, man loaded
with data versus my emotions arenow persecuting me or
justifying a set of ineffectivebehavior.
Sejal Pietrzak (14:34):
So Amy, how does one actually do that?
You know, if you've, you haveto be very self aware to be able
to know okay, I need to go fora walk outside, I need to step
away, I need to gain someperspective.
But how do you learn that?
How do you actually do that?
Because if you are feeling thatway, it's not like you can
(14:56):
leave the office that day.
What would you recommend?
Amy Jen Su (15:01):
I think one awareness is everything, right,
sejal.
So I think one know your owncues and markers, and that's
different for every leader,right?
Some leaders will tell you wow,the minute I start
procrastinating, something's upLike I don't know what's going
on, what I'm feeling, but sonormally we have a marker cue.
For others, it's like coming tofeel into your body.
(15:23):
Wow, when I feel tense, anxious, wow, when I feel tense,
anxious, I feel heat rising,like my energy's rising, I feel
cortisol spiking.
Right, part of the work isknowing what is my usual pattern
.
And now I'm going to have adifferent set of moves.
And so when I'm working with aleader, the first thing I want
(15:44):
to know is look, we're all goingto have that day.
I want to know that day.
I want to dissect that moment.
I want to know that day.
I want to dissect that moment.
I want to know exactly what itfeels like in your head, in your
heart, in your body.
And then I want to know whatyour default move tends to be
right, because we all have afirst move.
It's been going on forever,right?
Either we fight, flight, fight,whatever it is.
(16:05):
What's your first move?
And then my whole goal as acoach is to give you a second,
third, fourth move that helpsyou feel a sense of control and
stability back.
For some people that's the walk, for others is like I need to
rewrite my to-do list for amoment.
I need to clean my desk.
I need to renegotiate adeadline.
That's the hardest part is torecognize the cue or marker so
(16:29):
that then we can build an actionplan to help you pick a
different set of things than thedefault move that's not really
working for you.
Monica Enand (16:45):
I think mine is the speed of my speech.
I think mine is the speed of myspeech, like, if I start
talking really, really fast, I'mhaving a, I'm getting like
impatient, and sometimes it'sjust excited, but also sometimes
it can be a really kind ofimpatience or something that you
know, whereas I know otherpeople talk really slowly when
they get in that mode.
(17:05):
But it is different for eachperson, right.
Amy Jen Su (17:08):
Yeah, it's really different.
But that's a great example,monica, right, as you're
starting to clip faster andfaster, where does passion hit
its edge?
And, in fact, you're startingto feel anxiety around.
Why is the team not moving atpace quicker?
I want this to happen faster.
What's going on?
Sejal Pietrzak (17:25):
That's really good to know, monica.
So if I ever see you startingto talk really fast in one of
our business meetings, I'll knowwhat's going on and I'll say
okay take a beat.
Well, you know, I mean that canresult in pitfalls that you talk
about as well, amy, right, andI think you know meaning.
(17:46):
You know not knowing what yourtriggers are and then not
knowing how to address them andmaybe mitigate them.
And I found that really helpfulin terms of your book.
And talking about the pitfalls,you know, one that I think I've
fallen for and often look atand think about all the time is
(18:07):
the I'll just do more.
Right, I'll just handle it all,I'll just do it, you know.
And Monica's favorite is thepitfall of well, I'll just do it
now.
You know, maybe she's findingthat it's not happening fast
enough, so then she's startingto talk faster, but then she'll
just do it now.
I'm like, forget it, I'll justdo it Right.
Right, so you can just do more,you can just do it now, or, for
(18:31):
both of us, I'll just do itmyself instead of being the
leader and delegating iteffectively, because you just
want it done you know, these arealso great, great things to
thought, not only at work, butalso with families and things
like that.
And then the last is you talkedabout procrastination for a
(18:51):
second right, amy.
I'll just do it later.
That's another pitfall.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthose pitfalls?
Amy Jen Su (19:00):
I mean it's so funny as you were saying them,
because I could feel myselfnodding inside, and especially
when you said, just do it myself.
I know one of my cues andmarkers is when I start taking
batons back from my team Likesame thing, I'm just getting
impatient, I want it done, I'lldo it faster, let me start
grabbing batons back.
And as I start to grab eachbaton, you start realizing I'm
(19:22):
getting deeper and deeper into apitfall, into a pitfall.
And so again, similar to theconversation we just had, which
is which one are you mostsusceptible to?
Because they're part ofeveryone's coping strategies,
really, right, it's whenever Istart to feel a little out of
control.
Each of these four give us asense of control back.
So it's a way of coping again,which is just a human function.
(19:45):
But the real risk is theslippery slope, or the real risk
for some leaders is when itbecomes your operating norm,
right.
So in the moment of pause orrealizing, oh, I just took a
week's worth of work back frommy team because I'm getting
impatient, or whatever it is,then it's a chance to reframe.
Okay, if I'm just doing more,how do I pause and think about
(20:06):
how do I do more value add andwhat are the value add items on
my to-do list?
Right, if I feel like I have todo it now, how do I pause, look
at my to-do list and say whatactually has time sensitivity,
like within quarter?
What are the win today's versuswhat are actually the win
tomorrow's?
Am I spending a judiciousamount of time on both win today
(20:27):
and win tomorrow?
If I'm just doing it myself,yeah, maybe you could go faster,
but are you actually going totravel more distance?
Is the farther now compromisedin service of faster, right?
And if you're just doing itlater, how do I either get into
a 15-minute flow on something Idon't want to work on and I'm
putting off, or how do I re-lookat my to-do list with the
(20:48):
classic you know, stephen Coveyimportant versus urgent, and
make a different call.
Sejal Pietrzak (20:53):
Yeah, I love that.
Important versus urgent, soimportant to know the difference
.
Monica Enand (21:05):
I love that you talk about these pitfalls.
And the other thing you have,which maybe all Harvard Business
Review published authors haveto have, is a quadrant matrix, a
two by two matrix.
I don't know if that's requiredor they teach you that, but
tell us about your.
This was a helpful, this was avery helpful quadrant for me and
(21:27):
I still think about it andrefer to it.
So maybe you could tell usabout the quadrants of passion
and contribution to help thinkabout, like you said, the value
add.
Where am I adding value?
Amy Jen Su (21:38):
Monica, that's funny about the HBR comment.
I think it does help to have atwo by two and I think a little
bit of DNA.
You know, I was a consultantfor many years so I think my
brain thinks in two by two.
So, just as an aside, thatthat's like really funny.
But in terms of the two by tworight and value add, what's the
value add we want?
We want to be in the upperright hand box of a two by two,
(21:59):
which is high contribution andhigh passion.
So high, high means.
Hey, if I were to go interviewyour boss, your customers, your
team and I said where do youhope Monica and Sejal are
spending their time?
You know what's your highestand best use and where do you
hope she's spending time?
You know high contributionwould be that list of projects,
(22:21):
initiatives, activities,interactions that would
constitute high contribution.
The great news about the upperright hand quadrant is that it's
also a high passion.
So if you looked at that samelist that you and your boss
agreed to as like your top fivefor the year, man, you've got a
great role.
You're probably in the rightjob.
(22:42):
If 80% of that list is likewhere you get juice right, so
it's kind of the high juice,high use box, if you will, and
so it's a great way to keep oureyes on the ball, eyes on the
prize, and then, of course, thehigh contribution, then low
passion bucket, which is part ofevery job, right, where there's
things your boss or yourmandate says is a high use of
(23:05):
your time, but you're like youknow, I don't get so much juice
from that, I'm not passionateabout that.
That would be quadrant two,kind of lower right hand
quadrant, if you will, andthat's a great box to explore
because one, if that 20% growsto 80%, it's probably usually
when you see people ready tomake a job change or a role
change because they're justoutgrown the role.
(23:27):
It's also a great quadrant topotentially empower and delegate
to your team, right, because ifsomebody else really enjoys it
and you don't, but it'simportant to the mandate, why
not build a team around you tocapitalize on other people's
strengths and interests, so thatyou still fulfill your mission
and vision together as a team,but each has a different role?
(23:47):
And then the third quadrantwould be kind of low use but
high juice, right, so your bossor the company wouldn't say gosh
, I kind of hope Monica andSejal aren't spending time there
, but for whatever reason, weall have these pet things that
we love to do.
Maybe we did them in a formerjob.
We're just really good at it.
(24:08):
We get a dopamine hit everytime we do it.
And so these are the placeswhere you start to explore is
the leader not empowering ordelegating?
And they're kind of holding onto something too long.
Are they kind of touchingMiddle Earth unnecessarily or
staying there too long?
Right?
So that's a good quadrant tolook at.
And then the one we all want tojust be careful about is low,
(24:29):
low.
It's low use, low contributiondoesn't actually give you juice
over the long time.
But I call it kind of theanxiety relief box.
It's like, oh my god, I couldsit and email all day long and
the whole day's gone by and I'mcrossing little things off my
to-do list, but I haven't reallymoved anything meaningfully
forward.
How do you?
Sejal Pietrzak (24:50):
avoid that low low, because getting the emails
done is really important,because you want to be
responsive as a leader and itcan take so much time.
Amy Jen Su (25:00):
Yeah, that's a great question I was thinking about.
I hope an episode everyonelistens to from your podcast is
one the two of you did on timeboxing, right.
So I think email is one ofthose things that, yes, needs to
get handled, but I would makesure I time backs that.
I'd probably pick a window oftime that wasn't like my highest
productivity thinking time.
I'd pick a different time whereI'm just triaging, but I'm
(25:22):
gonna box that and bound that soit doesn't get carried away.
Sejal Pietrzak (25:25):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
That's actually a greatreminder to be thinking about it
that way.
Monica Enand (25:32):
I also.
I mean, I think that that'sdefinitely helpful and I think
Sejal's more disciplined aboutthat.
But I also found that like forme, when we would step out of my
day-to-day, like if I had theseopportunities to some things I
was just doing, because I wasalways doing them, I'm like, and
I never really thought like Idid them before.
(25:53):
I continued to do them.
I didn't really give it muchthought.
But what was helpful to me,like with the workshop we did
with you, is when you step outof your day-to-day routine,
maybe once a year, maybe onceevery six months, and you really
start to like kind of get someperspective on what you're doing
and how you're.
You know just those kind ofintentional moments of like,
(26:15):
evaluation and self-reflectionand saying like, do I need to
continue be doing these?
How do you, when you work withpeople, do you help them build
that in Like?
For me that was just kind of ithappened once a year because
there was this you know greatsummit to go to and we went to
it.
But but I don't know if, ifsomeone wasn't planning that for
(26:36):
me, I'm not sure if I would doit regularly.
Amy Jen Su (26:40):
Monica, I think it's such a great question, right,
because we get into our life andwe get into the business.
So I think what you're talkingabout is how, how do I, in a
disciplined way, find on thebusiness, on me time, which is
really hard because we're in aflow, we're executing, we're
getting stuff done.
So I do think you have to pickthose time markers, whether it's
(27:02):
bi-annually, whether it's, Ilike, kind of start of the year,
midpoint of the year, to justpause and say, hey, wait a
minute, is this alldirectionally correct?
Is the business, is my lifeheading in the right direction,
first and foremost?
And then, if it isdirectionally correct, then what
are the priorities and theneach of the rocks I need to keep
(27:24):
walking to, to make pace and tomake progress.
And what is that progressthrough line?
So I think that discipline ishuge and I would say, at the
start of every new role, it's agreat time to pause and look at
it.
I think every like 25 million inscale for a business, you know,
I will have the CEOs I workwith say, hey, you started this
(27:49):
when it was let's take a founder.
If it's a founder, ceo, right,I will definitely, at the start
of coaching, say pretend thatyou've decided you don't want to
do this.
But this is your baby, this isthe legacy you want to leave.
Write for me the job spec ofthe person you're going to hire
now, based on the size of thebusiness and where you want to
(28:11):
see it go.
And then we take that new jobspec that the founder's written
and look at it up againstthemselves and say are you
leading like this, or where arethe departures and how are we
going to fill them so that youcan keep leading your business
to next?
But the discipline of that,especially when we're either the
(28:32):
founder or we were an internalpromote, is the risk of I'm just
going to keep operating the wayI've always been operating.
So if I see an internal promoteor a founder situation, I
always say nope.
First thing we're going to dois we're going to write the
pretend job spec becausesomething's happened and you
can't lead this anymore.
But you know the businessbetter than anyone else.
(28:55):
So write me your wish list forwho and what you would want to
carry this forward.
That's such a good idea it is.
Monica Enand (29:02):
And I heard you say that and you know I'm a
founder CEO and I heard you saythat before.
And I actually came back and Itook a journal and I started to.
When I was faced with reallyhard challenges, I would
actually write that challenge,put it away and then the next
day I would tell myself in themorning I'm going to open that
(29:23):
journal and I'm going to saywhat would a hired CEO do?
Like, if someone was in myposition and 90% of the time it
was obvious what a hired CEOwould do.
And then once you, once Ifigured that out, then I'd go
why am I not doing that Like?
Then it was like, oh, I feelloyalty to this person.
We've been through so muchtogether.
(29:44):
Well, how will I?
You know, that was my idea.
And now I have to go telleveryone that it was a bad idea.
Like there was all this likebaggage.
It was like, do I want to telleveryone that I actually steered
them all wrong?
And then now I'm telling them,like you know, could I hang on a
little bit longer?
So there was all this likestuff, but actually the
(30:05):
discipline of just saying, likewhat would someone who came in
from the outside looking at thisbusiness problem?
Do that's what they would do?
Then how do I get myself fromhere to there and what are the
like the problems?
And I got that from your ideaof like write the jobs back, and
I don't know, maybe youactually told us to do that.
(30:26):
I don't remember, but I doremember coming back and doing
that that's a great thing,Monica.
Sejal Pietrzak (30:30):
It's not just for founders.
I mean, I think about my role.
You know, what would someone inany of my roles do differently
if they came in to take over thejob?
And then you say, okay, well,maybe I'm too close to it, Maybe
I need to take a step back andget some perspective and you can
(30:51):
.
Also, this is where you knowcoaching does really help,
because that's someone who's onthe outside and you know I think
I've said this before and Ithink about it all the time you
know, our kids have coaches insoccer and basketball and
baseball and track and whateverelse they might do.
You know we have coaches.
(31:13):
If we go, I mean, call a yogainstructor in front of a class,
a coach or a one-on-one.
If you do, you know you have atrainer, a coach or a one-on-one
.
If you do, you know you have atrainer, all these coaches.
And yet I don't think enoughleaders invest in, or companies
invest in, executive coaching togive leaders that perspective,
(31:33):
and it's not just founders, it'snot just CEOs.
I think it's so helpful atevery stage of leadership,
Absolutely agree, and it'sreally I mean pick your exercise
right.
Amy Jen Su (31:44):
That was just an example.
But the discipline, Monica, Ithink of what you're saying,
which is how do I step back formyself and actually observe
myself in action, how do I be awitness of my own experience, of
my own experience, and thatrequires a certain detachment
(32:04):
and a stepping back or steppingup to the balcony you know, I
can't remember which book.
I think it's AdaptiveLeadership sort of.
Are you on the balcony or onthe dance floor?
Again, pick your analogy.
But I think these moments ofbeing on yourself on the
business is super critical andit can be helpful, I know, for
me as a coach, I always think ofevery session.
As this leader's time is soprecious.
(32:25):
I want this to be their onthemselves moment in time where
they get to hear themselvesreflect and talk out loud,
Because most of us have theanswers inside, or we have
enough reps or we have enoughpattern recognition or intuition
or experience.
It's just that when we'recrunched and we're in it, it's
(32:46):
hard to see clearly.
Sejal Pietrzak (32:47):
Amy, I'm going to take us a little bit back in
time.
If you don't mind to Own theRoom.
What led to it's such apowerful book?
Can you talk a little bit about?
Amy Jen Su (33:10):
it and what led you to writing that as your first
book and it's been a bestselleron many lists.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat one?
In fact, they track to my owndevelopment.
So my own development, if yourewind the clock 20 years ago,
really was around voice andpresence.
And I personally had had amoment where, like many of the
listeners out there right, I wasworking in a consulting firm.
(33:33):
I was working 100 hours a week.
I assumed I was going to getthe next big management position
I thought I was up for, and Ihad that infamous performance
review where my manager saidthanks for working hard, you've
contributed a lot this year, butwe're not ready to promote you.
And it wasn't for my functionalability, my technical ability,
(33:53):
it was 100% because they said Ineeded to find my voice and have
more presence.
And you know, to be honest withboth of you, I don't even know
if it's legal today, but when Isaid to my manager what does
that even mean?
She said you know you shouldrealize that with senior level
clients you look kind of youngfor your age.
And I thought, well, that's notvery actionable, right, because
(34:17):
I can't really change that.
And so it kind of put me when Ibecame a coach, on a quest to
say there must be a way to bewho I am, be authentic, but make
the impact I'm meant to makeright.
And so for me it was realizingthat in the face of authority I
did tend to be a little moredeferential.
It came from my culture, the waymy, my parents raised me.
(34:40):
So while I had strong voice forothers, I had to learn a voice
for myself and to recognize thatI could be respectful and
direct at the same time thanbeing subservient.
And I realized as I wascoaching leaders, there was the
opposite person who had reallystrong voice for self, always
had an opinion, always could getto a point of view quickly, but
(35:02):
maybe needed to work on theskill set to give others voice,
like listening and askingquestions, and really the game
of leadership is being able todo both.
How do I have an integratedtoolbox so that when I need to
listen, I'm listening, when Iask the right listen, I'm
(35:23):
listening.
When I ask the right question,I know when to pull that out,
but I'm not shy to be articulateand give a point of view and
bring a business judgment.
It's just now.
If I bring a judgment.
I'm going to remember to makean invitation to hear what you
think of it, or sometimes, as aleader, I might invite you first
and then help synthesize on theother side of it, it's timeless
.
Sejal Pietrzak (35:41):
leader, I might invite you first and then help
synthesize.
On the other side of it, it'stimeless, you know, even though
that was written more than 10years ago.
It's exactly what you know.
So many listeners have sent usnotes about, even today, you
know, so really valuable.
Amy Jen Su (35:54):
Thank you.
Sejal Pietrzak (35:56):
You know you have lots of tips and tricks.
You were, I mean, I don't wantto call them tricks, but lots of
advice around what we can do asleaders to be able to improve
ourselves.
You know Monica was justtalking about you know,
listening to some of your adviceand guidance and going back
home and after that summit anddoing a work on, you know,
(36:21):
knowing what would someone elsedo if they came into her role at
the time.
That's a really it's hard to do, like you said, but it's a
really good tip.
What other tips that are noteasy to do but quick or
something you can do on your ownwould you recommend for leaders
who might be listening?
Amy Jen Su (36:40):
I think hopefully everyone listening today can
tell I'm passionate about likeown your time and energy, right,
that's our greatest thing wehave and if we don't prioritize
it, somebody else will, right?
So a quick tip is I know wejust went through the two by two
quadrants a little earlier inthe episode you know color code
your calendar against that, pickyour favorite color and every
(37:03):
time you get out of a meeting oryou did an activity, mark it.
Mark it.
If it was quadrant one, it washigh, high, and you can do a
really quick visual snapshot atthe end of the week, at the end
of a month, at the end of aquarter to say what percentage
am I getting of highcontribution and high passion,
right?
So that's a quick hack to doinstead of deep time analysis.
(37:24):
It's just a quick visual colorcode.
The second is we talked a littlebit about know your power hours
.
When are, when are the hourswhere your mind and brain are
highest producing and protectthem with all your might, right?
Know your time zone.
So if you're on vacation, beclear with your team.
Hey, I'm away with my family,but I know we have X project on
(37:45):
the other side of this.
I'm gonna be checking my emailevery morning from seven to
eight and then I'm offline,right, so be clear on when
you're available and when you'renot.
And even home zones, like thereare times we need to say to our
families hey, gang, after brunchmom is going to be in her home
office and when the door shut,for those two hours I'm present
to work and then I'll be backout to head out for the family
(38:08):
outing or whatever it is,because we let work and life
blur and bleed and leak so wenever feel like we're on or off.
And then the last thing is Ihope everyone still works on
gracious boundaries, becausewhen the rubber hits the road
like work doesn't happen in avacuum.
And so how do we stillgraciously be able to greet
(38:28):
somebody and say hey, sejal, Igot your note, I got your
request.
It's so great to hear from you.
I hear the urgency, but reallyJoe on my team now is handling
that set of things, and so I'mgoing to redirect you to him and
he'll be able to help answeryour question quickly.
Because if we're going to raiseour game, we have to raise the
game of others, and that meanswe need to find more and more
(38:50):
ways not only to delegate andempower, but to graciously reset
our rules of engagement withother people.
Sejal Pietrzak (38:57):
That's really smart.
Monica Enand (38:58):
That's a really good one, a really good,
powerful one.
In fact, I wrote some littlecheat sheet for myself of like
things I would say when peoplewould ask me and how I would
respond in a gracious way,because sometimes it's so hard
to say no at that moment, and soif you have that kind of
(39:18):
prepared, I had like a littleand then I would just cut and
paste and then I would editbecause it was like okay, I want
to remind myself that I want to.
It makes it easier to say youknow, I can't do that, or here's
someone else, or here's when Ican do that.
If you have those littlegracious entries to to the
(39:39):
conversation.
Amy Jen Su (39:40):
That's a great idea, right?
Just sometimes people can'tfind the words or the phrases.
So having that cheat sheet isso vital, and it's the paradox
of success.
Everyone probably listening toyour show is a high performer,
right?
So the more successful you are,the more in demand you are, and
suddenly everyone's coming tofind you from all over the place
, which is why it's an importantarea to continue to build skill
(40:04):
in, because the requests areonly going to keep coming in,
absolutely.
Monica Enand (40:14):
So, Amy, you talked about you were a
consultant in a prior life andthen you had this conversation
and you got into the own theroom.
Can you talk about changingcareers?
A lot of people come to me andsay I'm really scared.
I feel like maybe I need acareer change, but I'm really
scared and I don't know whetherI should or not.
(40:36):
How did you manage through that, those changes, those big
transitions?
Amy Jen Su (40:43):
Monica, that's a great question.
That was a hard period of life,right when we are in a role or
in a job, like for me, I knewthat I was a square peg in a
round hole, or whatever the termis.
It just absolutely was, youknow, not authentic to me.
I could do the job, I gotcompetent at it, but I really
(41:06):
felt very little juice, and sothere was a point where,
honestly, sometimes it takessomething to happen in life.
I'd had a snowboarding accidentthat put me into physical
therapy and I had to take alittle bit of a leave of absence
.
So you have a lot of time tothink about.
Okay, life is short.
I'm really not happy in thisrole, and it is fear and I'll
(41:28):
never forget.
A very dear friend sent me thebook Feel the Fear and Do it
Anyway, and that book so anywayin terms of great resources is
one I still come back to everytime.
Somewhere deep inside I knowit's time to make a change, but
I'm scared, right.
So part of our workdevelopmentally, I just think,
(41:48):
as humans, is how do I getcomfortable with the feeling of
fear, how do I grow my abilityto sit in the discomfort zone
and rather than saying I have tomake some big leap.
Then what are the baby steps Ineed to get there?
And every day, let me just takeone next action that gets me a
little closer to my new NorthStar.
(42:08):
And so at the time right, I hadan accident.
I knew I was really unhappy.
I knew I wanted to make achange.
And the other thing I knew wasI always loved human psychology.
My parents always said thatsince I was a young child, I
always had a phone attached tomy ear listening to all my
friends' problems.
And it was right.
At the time, the field ofcoaching was just beginning to
(42:30):
emerge, and so somewhere therewas a voice inside that was like
you really need to go for thisright.
And then, when you play outyour BATNA, what's your absolute
worst case scenario?
Okay, I hang a shingle for ayear.
I can't make enough money topay the bills.
Then I go back and find anotherjob.
So I literally gave myself ayear to live off savings.
(42:51):
I literally told everyone inthe world I knew I'm happy to
coach practice.
Your brother, uncle, cousin,sister, doesn't matter.
I just want to see if I likecoaching, if I'm any good at it,
and what will happen, andliterally, year over year, just
the next goal, the next goal,the next rock, the next rock.
And here I am, 20 years later,truly in the work I was meant to
(43:14):
do and sort of a belief.
We were all gifted or craftedin a way to do what you're made
for, and I'd rather do thisimperfectly than live somebody
else's life.
Monica Enand (43:26):
Oh, I think that's a very powerful statement.
I'd rather do this imperfectlythan live somebody else's life
Well.
Thank you so much, amy.
It was great to have you on thepodcast today.
I know you have benefited.
I know you've made immeasurablechanges to my life and Sejal's
life and have benefited ourcareers tremendously and many
people that we know, and so I'mconfident that our listeners
(43:50):
will get some of the benefits ofyour wisdom and your deep
practice that you've beenworking on for so long.
Thank you so much for againbeing on the show.
Sejal Pietrzak (43:59):
Thanks, Monica and thanks Georgiana, our
executive.
Long Thank you so much foragain being on the show.
Thanks, monica and thanksGeorgiana, our executive
producer.
Amy Jen Su (44:05):
Thank you both.
It was great to see you bothand thank you for what you're
doing here For all yourlisteners and all the episodes
that you've put out there.
I've been listening and they'reall great, so I hope everyone
like goes to check out thedifferent episodes and which one
speaks to them.
Thanks so much, amy.
Georgianna Moreland (44:20):
That's a wrap.
Thank you for listening today.
We would love for you to followand subscribe.
Monica and Sejo would love tohear from you.
You can text us directly fromthe link in the show notes of
this episode.
You can also find us on theLinkedIn page at Masterstroke
Podcast with Monica Enid andSejo Petrzak.
Until next time.
Like many of the listeners out there right, I was
working in a consulting firm.
I was working 100 hours a week.
I assumed I was going to getthe next big management position
I thought I was up for and Ihad that infamous performance
review where my manager saidthanks for working hard.
You've contributed a lot thisyear, but we're not ready to
promote you.
Welcome to.
Georgianna Morelan (00:22):
Masterstroke with Monica Enid and Sejal
Petrzak.
Conversations with founders,ceos and visionary leaders in
tech and beyond.
Sejal Pietrzak (00:40):
I am so excited to have Amy Jen Sue here today
with us.
We are so thrilled to have you,Amy.
Thanks for joining us.
Amy Jen Su (00:50):
Thanks for having me , Sejal and Monica.
It's so great to be here withyou both and huge
congratulations on your podcast.
I've been following along,listening to episodes and I just
love the valuable insights thatyou are bringing to the world,
so I'm super delighted to behere.
Sejal Pietrzak (01:07):
Well, thank you.
Well, let me introduce Amy toour listeners.
One of the reasons Monica and Iwanted to do a podcast is to
bring concepts and ideas thathave really helped both of us to
a wider group of people, andtoday I'm confident we're going
to deliver that because we havea very important guest, amy Amy
(01:28):
Jensu.
So she is the co-founder andmanaging partner of Paravis
Partners, a boutique executivecoaching and leadership
development firm.
For almost two decades, amy haspartnered with investment
professionals, ceos including meand executives to sustain and
increase their leadershipeffectiveness as they drive
(01:49):
organizational change andtransformation.
Amy also serves on boards offour companies and she brings
perspective to those boardstowards leadership scaling,
culture and capabilities,succession planning,
organizational architecture andaligning strategy with execution
.
She was most recently appointedas an advisory director for
(02:11):
Berkshire Partners.
Amy's also written two books.
They're amazing books.
You've got to read them.
One is called the Leader youWant to Be Five Essential
Principles to Bringing Out yourBest Self Every Day, and that
was published in 2019.
And then a Washington Postbestseller Own the Room,
(02:32):
discover your Signature Voice toMaster your Leadership Presence
.
And that was about a decade agoand it's still flying off the
shelves.
I loved both of those books,amy.
Amy's a frequent contributor toHarvard Business Review Online
and has been featured in avariety of media outlets,
including the Wall StreetJournal, fast Company, forbes
MarketWatch.
I'm so excited to have you, amy, and we are looking forward to
(02:56):
a great show.
Thanks again, guys.
I'm so excited too, Amy, tell ushow you work with people in
trying to grow, as they'retrying to grow and become better
leaders.
What do you do in the coachingand leadership practice?
Amy Jen Su (03:12):
I, you know, when I look back on these 20 years as
an executive advisor and coach,I feel so fortunate to have met
leaders like both of you whounderstand that they are trying
to transform their companies,transform whole industries, grow
those companies and industries.
And in the work that I do, I'mjust so lucky I've worked with
(03:35):
leaders who recognize that, asyou're growing and scaling a
company, you have to grow andscale yourself, and so
practically what that means is,you know, again, when I work
with folks, we do two things.
One is we take honest stock ofwhere we are today.
Right, who are you?
What are your values, what doyou stand for?
What's your own leadershipvision for yourself?
(03:56):
What are the skills you bringto bear, what are all the
contributions and impact you'vemade Because the truth is the
clock's never at zero and impactyou've made because the truth
is the clock's never at zero.
We are standing on a hugeplatform and foundation.
So step one in working withleaders is always let's really
understand the base and let'scelebrate who you are
authentically and who your bestself is.
(04:17):
And then let's look at theouter game around you.
How's the game changing?
Are there tailwinds?
Are there headwinds?
What's going on in the economy,what's going on changing?
Are there tailwinds, are thereheadwinds?
What's going on in the economy?
What's going on in thecompetitive landscape you play
in, and so, therefore, what arethe new knowledge areas you need
For all everyone listening,think about the businesses
(04:37):
you're in and what new skillscould you gain to be more
effective and contribute evenmore?
I feel like the folks I workwith really see themselves
almost as like star athletes whowent from D1 to playing
National League, to playingWorld Cup, and understand that
in each of those stages, I'vegot to grow, I've got to get
(04:58):
better, while still celebratingand not beating myself up at the
same time.
Sejal Pietrzak (05:02):
Absolutely.
I love that analogy in terms ofmoving from D1 to professional.
Monica Enand (05:08):
Yeah, I find that to be a really helpful analogy,
amy, because I have to tell youthat you know, sejal and I are
both fortunate enough to havegone to workshops where you were
working with a group of leaders, and the first one I went to
was before the book the Leaderyou Want to Be.
You were actually working onthe materials for the book and I
(05:30):
have to say that the firstthing that occurred to me while
I was there was wow, there is aton of work that goes into
writing a book like this.
I always thought, like, oh, youjust have all these ideas and
then write them down.
But I realized how much workyou were putting in and how much
testing you were doing withyour ideas, with real life
(05:53):
executives, real life businesssituations, and iterating and
honing those materials.
So that was the first thingthat occurred to me.
But then the second thing thatwas critical to me was what you
said about sort of not beatingyourself up.
So I'll tell you about myreaction, because I walked into
this room of amazinglyaccomplished CEOs, thinking I
(06:15):
was the only person who, youknow, really hadn't achieved my
best self and really kind ofthought about those times that I
didn't feel like I was at mybest as really a personal
failing, frankly, and really didused to beat myself up quite a
(06:37):
bit and it was really quite aremarkable transition for me to
hear you talk about Leader A andLeader B.
So can you introduce Leader Aand Leader B to our audience?
Amy Jen Su (06:49):
Happy to Monica and, truthfully, as I share with the
audience this idea of Leader Aand Leader B, I think I'm always
my own first test case where alot of this is autobiographical,
where, you know, I started tonotice within myself and, as
Monica, as you said, and Sejal,when I was with groups of
executives like yourself or outcoaching with folks, I kept
(07:11):
hearing about two differentparts of every human being.
You interact with that.
All of us have a leader A partof ourselves where you know you
wake up in the morning you feellike your best self.
It doesn't matter whatchallenge is thrown your way.
Somehow you're holding abroader perspective, you're
meeting the moment, you'rediscerning the moment, the
(07:31):
audience, and you're bringingthe appropriate tool or voice or
skill set you need to to meetthe challenge.
And we've all had those magicmoments where you feel like
you're your best self, you're inflow and I call that kind of
leader a moments.
And then we all frankly have aton of leader B moments where
you know you kind of wake up onthe wrong side of the bed.
(07:52):
Maybe you didn't get a greatnight's sleep, maybe it's a
particularly stressful week and,for whatever reason, our
perspective is just a littlemore myopic, we might be taking
things a little more personally.
It's a little harder to evenfind the energy to be your best
self, and so next thing you knowyou're wildly reactive and then
you're not meeting the momentas constructively, authentically
(08:15):
or effectively as you can.
And the truth is, the good newsis I don't know if you both
remember from the workshop wewere in I think the most popular
ratio was like 60-40, a to B,and I also felt so much relief
that no one is superhuman.
100 to 0 is actually a surefireway to end up in leader B.
(08:36):
And so the real question is howmuch self-awareness can we hold
moment to moment in the naturalwax and wane of both?
I'm in a job of high privilegeand I'm in a job of extreme
challenge where at any moment Icould feel exhilaration and then
walk into the next meeting andfeel pain, right.
(08:57):
And so the real question is doI have awareness that that's
happening?
What's my center of gravity?
Because as a leader, I have bigimpact on other people, and
when those moments come, do Ihave enough self-compassion and
kindness for myself to call ball, hit the pause button and sort
of say I need to start thismoment over, right?
(09:18):
So really, leader A and leader Bwas meant to just describe the
human condition.
So, sejal, to your openingquestion.
When I work with leaders, it'salmost a twofold coaching
program.
One, I wanna get to know yourleader A self and all the
conditions, practices, rituals,everything you know about
yourself that makes you feelgreat and brings your best.
(09:39):
And I also want to know all thetriggers, all the conditions,
all the situations where yourAchilles heel, or where you're
most vulnerable to showing up,is not your best self.
And if we just know those twothings, like you're invincible.
Monica Enand (10:01):
The second part of the title of the book is, as
Sejal was reading the title, Iguess there's always a first
part and a second part, butsecond part is five essential
principles to bringing out yourbest self every day.
And it really caught me likeevery day, because you know
Sejal and I have talked abouthow you know Sejal and I have a
lot in common, but what we'velearned through getting to know
(10:22):
each other is that we arecompletely different in many,
many ways, and one of the waysis that she is a much more
even-keeled, I think justnaturally she was born or is
just a more even-keeled human.
I am more excitable, I am.
I mean, what comes with thoseexcitable moments, which
(10:43):
sometimes work to my advantage,is, you know, the lows are there
as well and I'm not quite aseven keeled and I've been trying
hard to like.
Okay, I want to be authentic, Iwant to be as part of my
leadership practice.
I don't want to suppress myfeelings or shove them down,
which I know is a habit for alot of people, and it's a really
.
It's not a habit that'ssustainable.
(11:04):
It's toxic over the long run.
So what do I do with thoseleader B days and how do I
balance like being authenticallymyself and how I should handle
those situations?
Amy Jen Su (11:16):
Great question, monica.
First and foremost, I'm a hugefan of authenticity, as you both
know, right?
So, to address the first partof your question, in the world
where we all index differentlyon the world of emotion and
emotiveness, right, monica,you'll always sort of be on the
higher end of the dial of thatand there'll be situations where
(11:38):
you have to play with that dialand bring yourself to more
composure.
And, sejal, my guess is, youprobably naturally have high
composure, can be calm in thestorm, but there's times, on the
big stage, we need you to dialit up and be more passionate,
right?
So always start with your ownbaseline authenticity and dial
up and down as you need.
And then I think the secondpart of your question is I'm
(11:59):
with you, monica, I am not a fanof suppressing, repressing,
denying feelings, because guesswhat, we telegraph them and they
leak out all over people anyway, and then we're not clean,
clear and professional.
So I'm with you, authenticityis actually what is the feeling
I'm feeling?
What is that really about?
(12:20):
And then the question I have isthen what are you going to do
about it, right?
So if I'm in leader A mode, Ihave a day where I'm feeling
feelings, let's say I'm feelinganxious.
Let's say I'm feeling feelings.
Let's say I'm feeling anxious.
Let's say I'm getting impatient.
Let's say I'm starting to feeloverwhelmed.
There's nothing wrong withthose feelings.
In fact, I'd rather you knowthat's what's happening.
But then the question is do youuse those emotions as
(12:43):
information or do you use themfor persecution and
justification?
So, do your emotions have youor do you have it Right?
So let's take that same example.
I'm having a week where I'mback to back, I have
deliverables, the marketheadwinds are working against me
, I'm behind plan and behindbudget.
I've got to go to the board andsay that I'm just not having a
(13:06):
great day, right.
If I'm leader A, I recognizethat.
I can name it, I'm conscious ofit and in fact, before I go
blow up on my team or someonegets on the wrong side of me, I
get up, I go outside, I go for awalk around the block and then
I come back and realize okay,here's what I'm actually
bothered about.
Let me go handle A, b and C.
(13:27):
If I'm in leader B mode, I havethose same emotions, but now
they justify how I feel.
Right Now I'm angry, I'mjustified, I feel persecuted.
I can't believe my board isalways breathing down my neck.
Why don't they understand thatoperational reality and what I
need to achieve?
You know, ambition andcapability aren't matching.
(13:49):
And my EA walks in and at thatmoment I unleash my fury on an
innocent team member that wasn'texpecting to kind of get their
head bitten off, but they did.
And now, because I'm a leader,the coefficient of my, my ripple
effect, is quite high.
So I have negatively impactedsomebody else.
So I don't have an issue withthe emotion and I love the
(14:11):
authenticity of it.
It's then, what do we asleaders do with that emotion?
I say let's use it asinformation, really valuable
information.
Feelings, intuition, spideysense, discomfort, man loaded
with data versus my emotions arenow persecuting me or
justifying a set of ineffectivebehavior.
Sejal Pietrzak (14:34):
So Amy, how does one actually do that?
You know, if you've, you haveto be very self aware to be able
to know okay, I need to go fora walk outside, I need to step
away, I need to gain someperspective.
But how do you learn that?
How do you actually do that?
Because if you are feeling thatway, it's not like you can
(14:56):
leave the office that day.
What would you recommend?
Amy Jen Su (15:01):
I think one awareness is everything, right,
sejal.
So I think one know your owncues and markers, and that's
different for every leader,right?
Some leaders will tell you wow,the minute I start
procrastinating, something's upLike I don't know what's going
on, what I'm feeling, but sonormally we have a marker cue.
For others, it's like coming tofeel into your body.
(15:23):
Wow, when I feel tense, anxious, wow, when I feel tense,
anxious, I feel heat rising,like my energy's rising, I feel
cortisol spiking.
Right, part of the work isknowing what is my usual pattern
.
And now I'm going to have adifferent set of moves.
And so when I'm working with aleader, the first thing I want
(15:44):
to know is look, we're all goingto have that day.
I want to know that day.
I want to dissect that moment.
I want to know that day.
I want to dissect that moment.
I want to know exactly what itfeels like in your head, in your
heart, in your body.
And then I want to know whatyour default move tends to be
right, because we all have afirst move.
It's been going on forever,right?
Either we fight, flight, fight,whatever it is.
(16:05):
What's your first move?
And then my whole goal as acoach is to give you a second,
third, fourth move that helpsyou feel a sense of control and
stability back.
For some people that's the walk, for others is like I need to
rewrite my to-do list for amoment.
I need to clean my desk.
I need to renegotiate adeadline.
That's the hardest part is torecognize the cue or marker so
(16:29):
that then we can build an actionplan to help you pick a
different set of things than thedefault move that's not really
working for you.
Monica Enand (16:45):
I think mine is the speed of my speech.
I think mine is the speed of myspeech, like, if I start
talking really, really fast, I'mhaving a, I'm getting like
impatient, and sometimes it'sjust excited, but also sometimes
it can be a really kind ofimpatience or something that you
know, whereas I know otherpeople talk really slowly when
they get in that mode.
(17:05):
But it is different for eachperson, right.
Amy Jen Su (17:08):
Yeah, it's really different.
But that's a great example,monica, right, as you're
starting to clip faster andfaster, where does passion hit
its edge?
And, in fact, you're startingto feel anxiety around.
Why is the team not moving atpace quicker?
I want this to happen faster.
What's going on?
Sejal Pietrzak (17:25):
That's really good to know, monica.
So if I ever see you startingto talk really fast in one of
our business meetings, I'll knowwhat's going on and I'll say
okay take a beat.
Well, you know, I mean that canresult in pitfalls that you talk
about as well, amy, right, andI think you know meaning.
(17:46):
You know not knowing what yourtriggers are and then not
knowing how to address them andmaybe mitigate them.
And I found that really helpfulin terms of your book.
And talking about the pitfalls,you know, one that I think I've
fallen for and often look atand think about all the time is
(18:07):
the I'll just do more.
Right, I'll just handle it all,I'll just do it, you know.
And Monica's favorite is thepitfall of well, I'll just do it
now.
You know, maybe she's findingthat it's not happening fast
enough, so then she's startingto talk faster, but then she'll
just do it now.
I'm like, forget it, I'll justdo it Right.
Right, so you can just do more,you can just do it now, or, for
(18:31):
both of us, I'll just do itmyself instead of being the
leader and delegating iteffectively, because you just
want it done you know, these arealso great, great things to
thought, not only at work, butalso with families and things
like that.
And then the last is you talkedabout procrastination for a
(18:51):
second right, amy.
I'll just do it later.
That's another pitfall.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthose pitfalls?
Amy Jen Su (19:00):
I mean it's so funny as you were saying them,
because I could feel myselfnodding inside, and especially
when you said, just do it myself.
I know one of my cues andmarkers is when I start taking
batons back from my team Likesame thing, I'm just getting
impatient, I want it done, I'lldo it faster, let me start
grabbing batons back.
And as I start to grab eachbaton, you start realizing I'm
(19:22):
getting deeper and deeper into apitfall, into a pitfall.
And so again, similar to theconversation we just had, which
is which one are you mostsusceptible to?
Because they're part ofeveryone's coping strategies,
really, right, it's whenever Istart to feel a little out of
control.
Each of these four give us asense of control back.
So it's a way of coping again,which is just a human function.
(19:45):
But the real risk is theslippery slope, or the real risk
for some leaders is when itbecomes your operating norm,
right.
So in the moment of pause orrealizing, oh, I just took a
week's worth of work back frommy team because I'm getting
impatient, or whatever it is,then it's a chance to reframe.
Okay, if I'm just doing more,how do I pause and think about
(20:06):
how do I do more value add andwhat are the value add items on
my to-do list?
Right, if I feel like I have todo it now, how do I pause, look
at my to-do list and say whatactually has time sensitivity,
like within quarter?
What are the win today's versuswhat are actually the win
tomorrow's?
Am I spending a judiciousamount of time on both win today
(20:27):
and win tomorrow?
If I'm just doing it myself,yeah, maybe you could go faster,
but are you actually going totravel more distance?
Is the farther now compromisedin service of faster, right?
And if you're just doing itlater, how do I either get into
a 15-minute flow on something Idon't want to work on and I'm
putting off, or how do I re-lookat my to-do list with the
(20:48):
classic you know, stephen Coveyimportant versus urgent, and
make a different call.
Sejal Pietrzak (20:53):
Yeah, I love that.
Important versus urgent, soimportant to know the difference
.
Monica Enand (21:05):
I love that you talk about these pitfalls.
And the other thing you have,which maybe all Harvard Business
Review published authors haveto have, is a quadrant matrix, a
two by two matrix.
I don't know if that's requiredor they teach you that, but
tell us about your.
This was a helpful, this was avery helpful quadrant for me and
(21:27):
I still think about it andrefer to it.
So maybe you could tell usabout the quadrants of passion
and contribution to help thinkabout, like you said, the value
add.
Where am I adding value?
Amy Jen Su (21:38):
Monica, that's funny about the HBR comment.
I think it does help to have atwo by two and I think a little
bit of DNA.
You know, I was a consultantfor many years so I think my
brain thinks in two by two.
So, just as an aside, thatthat's like really funny.
But in terms of the two by tworight and value add, what's the
value add we want?
We want to be in the upperright hand box of a two by two,
(21:59):
which is high contribution andhigh passion.
So high, high means.
Hey, if I were to go interviewyour boss, your customers, your
team and I said where do youhope Monica and Sejal are
spending their time?
You know what's your highestand best use and where do you
hope she's spending time?
You know high contributionwould be that list of projects,
(22:21):
initiatives, activities,interactions that would
constitute high contribution.
The great news about the upperright hand quadrant is that it's
also a high passion.
So if you looked at that samelist that you and your boss
agreed to as like your top fivefor the year, man, you've got a
great role.
You're probably in the rightjob.
(22:42):
If 80% of that list is likewhere you get juice right, so
it's kind of the high juice,high use box, if you will, and
so it's a great way to keep oureyes on the ball, eyes on the
prize, and then, of course, thehigh contribution, then low
passion bucket, which is part ofevery job, right, where there's
things your boss or yourmandate says is a high use of
(23:05):
your time, but you're like youknow, I don't get so much juice
from that, I'm not passionateabout that.
That would be quadrant two,kind of lower right hand
quadrant, if you will, andthat's a great box to explore
because one, if that 20% growsto 80%, it's probably usually
when you see people ready tomake a job change or a role
change because they're justoutgrown the role.
(23:27):
It's also a great quadrant topotentially empower and delegate
to your team, right, because ifsomebody else really enjoys it
and you don't, but it'simportant to the mandate, why
not build a team around you tocapitalize on other people's
strengths and interests, so thatyou still fulfill your mission
and vision together as a team,but each has a different role?
(23:47):
And then the third quadrantwould be kind of low use but
high juice, right, so your bossor the company wouldn't say gosh
, I kind of hope Monica andSejal aren't spending time there
, but for whatever reason, weall have these pet things that
we love to do.
Maybe we did them in a formerjob.
We're just really good at it.
(24:08):
We get a dopamine hit everytime we do it.
And so these are the placeswhere you start to explore is
the leader not empowering ordelegating?
And they're kind of holding onto something too long.
Are they kind of touchingMiddle Earth unnecessarily or
staying there too long?
Right?
So that's a good quadrant tolook at.
And then the one we all want tojust be careful about is low,
(24:29):
low.
It's low use, low contributiondoesn't actually give you juice
over the long time.
But I call it kind of theanxiety relief box.
It's like, oh my god, I couldsit and email all day long and
the whole day's gone by and I'mcrossing little things off my
to-do list, but I haven't reallymoved anything meaningfully
forward.
How do you?
Sejal Pietrzak (24:50):
avoid that low low, because getting the emails
done is really important,because you want to be
responsive as a leader and itcan take so much time.
Amy Jen Su (25:00):
Yeah, that's a great question I was thinking about.
I hope an episode everyonelistens to from your podcast is
one the two of you did on timeboxing, right.
So I think email is one ofthose things that, yes, needs to
get handled, but I would makesure I time backs that.
I'd probably pick a window oftime that wasn't like my highest
productivity thinking time.
I'd pick a different time whereI'm just triaging, but I'm
(25:22):
gonna box that and bound that soit doesn't get carried away.
Sejal Pietrzak (25:25):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
That's actually a greatreminder to be thinking about it
that way.
Monica Enand (25:32):
I also.
I mean, I think that that'sdefinitely helpful and I think
Sejal's more disciplined aboutthat.
But I also found that like forme, when we would step out of my
day-to-day, like if I had theseopportunities to some things I
was just doing, because I wasalways doing them, I'm like, and
I never really thought like Idid them before.
(25:53):
I continued to do them.
I didn't really give it muchthought.
But what was helpful to me,like with the workshop we did
with you, is when you step outof your day-to-day routine,
maybe once a year, maybe onceevery six months, and you really
start to like kind of get someperspective on what you're doing
and how you're.
You know just those kind ofintentional moments of like,
(26:15):
evaluation and self-reflectionand saying like, do I need to
continue be doing these?
How do you, when you work withpeople, do you help them build
that in Like?
For me that was just kind of ithappened once a year because
there was this you know greatsummit to go to and we went to
it.
But but I don't know if, ifsomeone wasn't planning that for
(26:36):
me, I'm not sure if I would doit regularly.
Amy Jen Su (26:40):
Monica, I think it's such a great question, right,
because we get into our life andwe get into the business.
So I think what you're talkingabout is how, how do I, in a
disciplined way, find on thebusiness, on me time, which is
really hard because we're in aflow, we're executing, we're
getting stuff done.
So I do think you have to pickthose time markers, whether it's
(27:02):
bi-annually, whether it's, Ilike, kind of start of the year,
midpoint of the year, to justpause and say, hey, wait a
minute, is this alldirectionally correct?
Is the business, is my lifeheading in the right direction,
first and foremost?
And then, if it isdirectionally correct, then what
are the priorities and theneach of the rocks I need to keep
(27:24):
walking to, to make pace and tomake progress.
And what is that progressthrough line?
So I think that discipline ishuge and I would say, at the
start of every new role, it's agreat time to pause and look at
it.
I think every like 25 million inscale for a business, you know,
I will have the CEOs I workwith say, hey, you started this
(27:49):
when it was let's take a founder.
If it's a founder, ceo, right,I will definitely, at the start
of coaching, say pretend thatyou've decided you don't want to
do this.
But this is your baby, this isthe legacy you want to leave.
Write for me the job spec ofthe person you're going to hire
now, based on the size of thebusiness and where you want to
(28:11):
see it go.
And then we take that new jobspec that the founder's written
and look at it up againstthemselves and say are you
leading like this, or where arethe departures and how are we
going to fill them so that youcan keep leading your business
to next?
But the discipline of that,especially when we're either the
(28:32):
founder or we were an internalpromote, is the risk of I'm just
going to keep operating the wayI've always been operating.
So if I see an internal promoteor a founder situation, I
always say nope.
First thing we're going to dois we're going to write the
pretend job spec becausesomething's happened and you
can't lead this anymore.
But you know the businessbetter than anyone else.
(28:55):
So write me your wish list forwho and what you would want to
carry this forward.
That's such a good idea it is.
Monica Enand (29:02):
And I heard you say that and you know I'm a
founder CEO and I heard you saythat before.
And I actually came back and Itook a journal and I started to.
When I was faced with reallyhard challenges, I would
actually write that challenge,put it away and then the next
day I would tell myself in themorning I'm going to open that
(29:23):
journal and I'm going to saywhat would a hired CEO do?
Like, if someone was in myposition and 90% of the time it
was obvious what a hired CEOwould do.
And then once you, once Ifigured that out, then I'd go
why am I not doing that Like?
Then it was like, oh, I feelloyalty to this person.
We've been through so muchtogether.
(29:44):
Well, how will I?
You know, that was my idea.
And now I have to go telleveryone that it was a bad idea.
Like there was all this likebaggage.
It was like, do I want to telleveryone that I actually steered
them all wrong?
And then now I'm telling them,like you know, could I hang on a
little bit longer?
So there was all this likestuff, but actually the
(30:05):
discipline of just saying, likewhat would someone who came in
from the outside looking at thisbusiness problem?
Do that's what they would do?
Then how do I get myself fromhere to there and what are the
like the problems?
And I got that from your ideaof like write the jobs back, and
I don't know, maybe youactually told us to do that.
(30:26):
I don't remember, but I doremember coming back and doing
that that's a great thing,Monica.
Sejal Pietrzak (30:30):
It's not just for founders.
I mean, I think about my role.
You know, what would someone inany of my roles do differently
if they came in to take over thejob?
And then you say, okay, well,maybe I'm too close to it, Maybe
I need to take a step back andget some perspective and you can
(30:51):
.
Also, this is where you knowcoaching does really help,
because that's someone who's onthe outside and you know I think
I've said this before and Ithink about it all the time you
know, our kids have coaches insoccer and basketball and
baseball and track and whateverelse they might do.
You know we have coaches.
(31:13):
If we go, I mean, call a yogainstructor in front of a class,
a coach or a one-on-one.
If you do, you know you have atrainer, a coach or a one-on-one
.
If you do, you know you have atrainer, all these coaches.
And yet I don't think enoughleaders invest in, or companies
invest in, executive coaching togive leaders that perspective,
(31:33):
and it's not just founders, it'snot just CEOs.
I think it's so helpful atevery stage of leadership,
Absolutely agree, and it'sreally I mean pick your exercise
right.
Amy Jen Su (31:44):
That was just an example.
But the discipline, Monica, Ithink of what you're saying,
which is how do I step back formyself and actually observe
myself in action, how do I be awitness of my own experience, of
my own experience, and thatrequires a certain detachment
(32:04):
and a stepping back or steppingup to the balcony you know, I
can't remember which book.
I think it's AdaptiveLeadership sort of.
Are you on the balcony or onthe dance floor?
Again, pick your analogy.
But I think these moments ofbeing on yourself on the
business is super critical andit can be helpful, I know, for
me as a coach, I always think ofevery session.
As this leader's time is soprecious.
(32:25):
I want this to be their onthemselves moment in time where
they get to hear themselvesreflect and talk out loud,
Because most of us have theanswers inside, or we have
enough reps or we have enoughpattern recognition or intuition
or experience.
It's just that when we'recrunched and we're in it, it's
(32:46):
hard to see clearly.
Sejal Pietrzak (32:47):
Amy, I'm going to take us a little bit back in
time.
If you don't mind to Own theRoom.
What led to it's such apowerful book?
Can you talk a little bit about?
Amy Jen Su (33:10):
it and what led you to writing that as your first
book and it's been a bestselleron many lists.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat one?
In fact, they track to my owndevelopment.
So my own development, if yourewind the clock 20 years ago,
really was around voice andpresence.
And I personally had had amoment where, like many of the
listeners out there right, I wasworking in a consulting firm.
(33:33):
I was working 100 hours a week.
I assumed I was going to getthe next big management position
I thought I was up for, and Ihad that infamous performance
review where my manager saidthanks for working hard, you've
contributed a lot this year, butwe're not ready to promote you.
And it wasn't for my functionalability, my technical ability,
(33:53):
it was 100% because they said Ineeded to find my voice and have
more presence.
And you know, to be honest withboth of you, I don't even know
if it's legal today, but when Isaid to my manager what does
that even mean?
She said you know you shouldrealize that with senior level
clients you look kind of youngfor your age.
And I thought, well, that's notvery actionable, right, because
(34:17):
I can't really change that.
And so it kind of put me when Ibecame a coach, on a quest to
say there must be a way to bewho I am, be authentic, but make
the impact I'm meant to makeright.
And so for me it was realizingthat in the face of authority I
did tend to be a little moredeferential.
It came from my culture, the waymy, my parents raised me.
(34:40):
So while I had strong voice forothers, I had to learn a voice
for myself and to recognize thatI could be respectful and
direct at the same time thanbeing subservient.
And I realized as I wascoaching leaders, there was the
opposite person who had reallystrong voice for self, always
had an opinion, always could getto a point of view quickly, but
(35:02):
maybe needed to work on theskill set to give others voice,
like listening and askingquestions, and really the game
of leadership is being able todo both.
How do I have an integratedtoolbox so that when I need to
listen, I'm listening, when Iask the right listen, I'm
(35:23):
listening.
When I ask the right question,I know when to pull that out,
but I'm not shy to be articulateand give a point of view and
bring a business judgment.
It's just now.
If I bring a judgment.
I'm going to remember to makean invitation to hear what you
think of it, or sometimes, as aleader, I might invite you first
and then help synthesize on theother side of it, it's timeless
.
Sejal Pietrzak (35:41):
leader, I might invite you first and then help
synthesize.
On the other side of it, it'stimeless, you know, even though
that was written more than 10years ago.
It's exactly what you know.
So many listeners have sent usnotes about, even today, you
know, so really valuable.
Amy Jen Su (35:54):
Thank you.
Sejal Pietrzak (35:56):
You know you have lots of tips and tricks.
You were, I mean, I don't wantto call them tricks, but lots of
advice around what we can do asleaders to be able to improve
ourselves.
You know Monica was justtalking about you know,
listening to some of your adviceand guidance and going back
home and after that summit anddoing a work on, you know,
(36:21):
knowing what would someone elsedo if they came into her role at
the time.
That's a really it's hard to do, like you said, but it's a
really good tip.
What other tips that are noteasy to do but quick or
something you can do on your ownwould you recommend for leaders
who might be listening?
Amy Jen Su (36:40):
I think hopefully everyone listening today can
tell I'm passionate about likeown your time and energy, right,
that's our greatest thing wehave and if we don't prioritize
it, somebody else will, right?
So a quick tip is I know wejust went through the two by two
quadrants a little earlier inthe episode you know color code
your calendar against that, pickyour favorite color and every
(37:03):
time you get out of a meeting oryou did an activity, mark it.
Mark it.
If it was quadrant one, it washigh, high, and you can do a
really quick visual snapshot atthe end of the week, at the end
of a month, at the end of aquarter to say what percentage
am I getting of highcontribution and high passion,
right?
So that's a quick hack to doinstead of deep time analysis.
(37:24):
It's just a quick visual colorcode.
The second is we talked a littlebit about know your power hours
.
When are, when are the hourswhere your mind and brain are
highest producing and protectthem with all your might, right?
Know your time zone.
So if you're on vacation, beclear with your team.
Hey, I'm away with my family,but I know we have X project on
(37:45):
the other side of this.
I'm gonna be checking my emailevery morning from seven to
eight and then I'm offline,right, so be clear on when
you're available and when you'renot.
And even home zones, like thereare times we need to say to our
families hey, gang, after brunchmom is going to be in her home
office and when the door shut,for those two hours I'm present
to work and then I'll be backout to head out for the family
(38:08):
outing or whatever it is,because we let work and life
blur and bleed and leak so wenever feel like we're on or off.
And then the last thing is Ihope everyone still works on
gracious boundaries, becausewhen the rubber hits the road
like work doesn't happen in avacuum.
And so how do we stillgraciously be able to greet
(38:28):
somebody and say hey, sejal, Igot your note, I got your
request.
It's so great to hear from you.
I hear the urgency, but reallyJoe on my team now is handling
that set of things, and so I'mgoing to redirect you to him and
he'll be able to help answeryour question quickly.
Because if we're going to raiseour game, we have to raise the
game of others, and that meanswe need to find more and more
(38:50):
ways not only to delegate andempower, but to graciously reset
our rules of engagement withother people.
Sejal Pietrzak (38:57):
That's really smart.
Monica Enand (38:58):
That's a really good one, a really good,
powerful one.
In fact, I wrote some littlecheat sheet for myself of like
things I would say when peoplewould ask me and how I would
respond in a gracious way,because sometimes it's so hard
to say no at that moment, and soif you have that kind of
(39:18):
prepared, I had like a littleand then I would just cut and
paste and then I would editbecause it was like okay, I want
to remind myself that I want to.
It makes it easier to say youknow, I can't do that, or here's
someone else, or here's when Ican do that.
If you have those littlegracious entries to to the
(39:39):
conversation.
Amy Jen Su (39:40):
That's a great idea, right?
Just sometimes people can'tfind the words or the phrases.
So having that cheat sheet isso vital, and it's the paradox
of success.
Everyone probably listening toyour show is a high performer,
right?
So the more successful you are,the more in demand you are, and
suddenly everyone's coming tofind you from all over the place
, which is why it's an importantarea to continue to build skill
(40:04):
in, because the requests areonly going to keep coming in,
absolutely.
Monica Enand (40:14):
So, Amy, you talked about you were a
consultant in a prior life andthen you had this conversation
and you got into the own theroom.
Can you talk about changingcareers?
A lot of people come to me andsay I'm really scared.
I feel like maybe I need acareer change, but I'm really
scared and I don't know whetherI should or not.
(40:36):
How did you manage through that, those changes, those big
transitions?
Amy Jen Su (40:43):
Monica, that's a great question.
That was a hard period of life,right when we are in a role or
in a job, like for me, I knewthat I was a square peg in a
round hole, or whatever the termis.
It just absolutely was, youknow, not authentic to me.
I could do the job, I gotcompetent at it, but I really
(41:06):
felt very little juice, and sothere was a point where,
honestly, sometimes it takessomething to happen in life.
I'd had a snowboarding accidentthat put me into physical
therapy and I had to take alittle bit of a leave of absence
.
So you have a lot of time tothink about.
Okay, life is short.
I'm really not happy in thisrole, and it is fear and I'll
(41:28):
never forget.
A very dear friend sent me thebook Feel the Fear and Do it
Anyway, and that book so anywayin terms of great resources is
one I still come back to everytime.
Somewhere deep inside I knowit's time to make a change, but
I'm scared, right.
So part of our workdevelopmentally, I just think,
(41:48):
as humans, is how do I getcomfortable with the feeling of
fear, how do I grow my abilityto sit in the discomfort zone
and rather than saying I have tomake some big leap.
Then what are the baby steps Ineed to get there?
And every day, let me just takeone next action that gets me a
little closer to my new NorthStar.
(42:08):
And so at the time right, I hadan accident.
I knew I was really unhappy.
I knew I wanted to make achange.
And the other thing I knew wasI always loved human psychology.
My parents always said thatsince I was a young child, I
always had a phone attached tomy ear listening to all my
friends' problems.
And it was right.
At the time, the field ofcoaching was just beginning to
(42:30):
emerge, and so somewhere therewas a voice inside that was like
you really need to go for thisright.
And then, when you play outyour BATNA, what's your absolute
worst case scenario?
Okay, I hang a shingle for ayear.
I can't make enough money topay the bills.
Then I go back and find anotherjob.
So I literally gave myself ayear to live off savings.
(42:51):
I literally told everyone inthe world I knew I'm happy to
coach practice.
Your brother, uncle, cousin,sister, doesn't matter.
I just want to see if I likecoaching, if I'm any good at it,
and what will happen, andliterally, year over year, just
the next goal, the next goal,the next rock, the next rock.
And here I am, 20 years later,truly in the work I was meant to
(43:14):
do and sort of a belief.
We were all gifted or craftedin a way to do what you're made
for, and I'd rather do thisimperfectly than live somebody
else's life.
Monica Enand (43:26):
Oh, I think that's a very powerful statement.
I'd rather do this imperfectlythan live somebody else's life
Well.
Thank you so much, amy.
It was great to have you on thepodcast today.
I know you have benefited.
I know you've made immeasurablechanges to my life and Sejal's
life and have benefited ourcareers tremendously and many
people that we know, and so I'mconfident that our listeners
(43:50):
will get some of the benefits ofyour wisdom and your deep
practice that you've beenworking on for so long.
Thank you so much for againbeing on the show.
Sejal Pietrzak (43:59):
Thanks, Monica and thanks Georgiana, our
executive.
Long Thank you so much foragain being on the show.
Thanks, monica and thanksGeorgiana, our executive
producer.
Amy Jen Su (44:05):
Thank you both.
It was great to see you bothand thank you for what you're
doing here For all yourlisteners and all the episodes
that you've put out there.
I've been listening and they'reall great, so I hope everyone
like goes to check out thedifferent episodes and which one
speaks to them.
Thanks so much, amy.
Georgianna Moreland (44:20):
That's a wrap.
Thank you for listening today.
We would love for you to followand subscribe.
Monica and Sejo would love tohear from you.
You can text us directly fromthe link in the show notes of
this episode.
You can also find us on theLinkedIn page at Masterstroke
Podcast with Monica Enid andSejo Petrzak.
Until next time.
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