July 6, 2023 • 39 mins
As we wrap up this season of Math Teacher Lounge, we’re sharing our biggest takeaways from our incredible discussions around tackling math anxiety.
We’ve been able to speak to five great thinkers on math and the anxieties that can affect students, teachers, and even caregivers. From acknowledging math anxiety and finding ways to immediately start relieving the pressure, to redefining math and establishing positive math routines in and out of the classroom, we’ve learned so much with every single episode. Listen now to hear our season highlights, as well as some of our favorite responses from listeners!
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Episode Transcript
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Dan Meyer (00:00):
I find myself more and more curious about is there
something above the teachersand caregivers that is actually
determining a lot of mathanxiety?
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:12):
Hi, and welcome to Math Teacher
Lounge. I'm Bethany LockhartJohnson .
Dan Meyer (00:16):
And I'm Dan Meyer.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:18):
This whole season we've been talking
about math anxiety. We've beenspeaking to, to great thinkers,
folks who are activelyresearching and trying to
understand math anxiety. Wedefinitely want you to listen
to the previous five episodesin this season if you haven't
already. But as we wrap up thisseason, Dan, we are going to
(00:42):
like, just you and I, we'regonna share some of our biggest
takeaways, some open questions,what's vibe and, and I wanna
know what you know, Dan, Idon't get enough of your
thoughts and opinions. DanMeyer.
Dan Meyer (00:54):
Same. I should, I should put you on my newsletter
list. I mean, I , I have a ,like a math education
newsletter, dan meyer.sub.com.
Um , but also I have a personalnewsletter for like non-math
education ideas and theoriesand hypotheses. I'd be happy to
include you on that. Oh ,please. And I wanna say it is
really good to see you too.
It's been really good for me,like to digest a lot of the
(01:16):
thinking. Yes . That went onduring our interviews. I'm
excited to chop that up withyou today. I , I would love to
know first, like as you thinkabout how we got into this
season, what for you felt likeexciting and necessary about a
season on math anxiety?
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (01:33):
Well, listeners will know that we
started doing more of a themelast season. We, we focused on
joy and mathematics. And so Ialready was really excited
about having a whole seasonrevolving around one idea so we
could kind of deep dive andmath anxiety. You know, we
shared about it in our mathstories in a previous episode.
(01:56):
And, you know, I navigated andnavigate math anxiety and it's
something that I see every dayin classrooms with other
teachers, with other adults.
Just, it's real, it'spervasive. And so I was really
excited to really talk to folkswho are thinking about this and
looking at it from differentangles. So it's been something
(02:17):
that we've gotten really goodfeedback on. What, what did
you, I , I don't know , mathanxiety has not really been
something that you said hasbeen really present for you,
although there have beenmoments, but Right . What did
you feel? Did you feel likethere were gonna be topics that
were relevant? Did you feellike, what were you feeling
before the season?
Dan Meyer (02:33):
Yeah, you're right.
I think we have had differentrelationships in mathematics to
mathematics. Uh, you know, youand I are like different
people, different identitiesthat have been socialized in
different ways to be seen aslike mathematically smart. And
so I, I obviously like had alot of that going on. So math
anxiety was not like a for alot of people that we
interviewed for yourself. Maybealso, this was like a, a bit of
self-study, like this was , welearned a bit about ourselves
(02:55):
through this. For me though, Ithink I feel really motivated.
I , I love that math is, hassuch a high status in the world
sometimes, like I dig thatcause I do math and it's big
for people and the presidentshouts it out sometimes and
says we need more math teachersor whatever. But it does seem a
little bit unfair sometimesthat like all these kids are
(03:18):
experiencing really negativeemotions about a thing that
society says you need to begood at. And in in fact, will
force you to sit and learn for180 days a year for up upwards
of 12 years of your onlychildhood. You've got one of
them. And people, you know,like yourself, like many adults
(03:41):
that I meet, they carry thesekinds of scars from , uh, of
math anxiety well intoadulthood. And so that to me,
like just as a socialphenomenon, math anxiety to me
is just really motivating .
Like , I don't wanna be a partof that. I don't wanna be a
part of that story. It wasn'treally my story, but I get how
I am visiting that story onpeople inadvertently how people
(04:02):
experience that story. And I, Iwanna understand it and have
nothing to do with it. Sothat's been the , what's
excited me about all of ourguests. And the interviews,
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (04:10):
Your math story definitely involved
far fewer tears than mine. Butthink about your role. I mean,
you're , you created this, youhelped to create this
curriculum that is going toimpact thousands and thousands
of students. And the moreteachers and parents and care
caregivers understand aboutmath anxiety, the better we can
(04:31):
help turn the tide away frommath as being this big scary
thing. It doesn't have to beyour favorite subject, but it
shouldn't cause like pain andanxiety.
Dan Meyer (04:41):
Yeah, I feel apathetic about lots of
subjects that I learned in myschooling, but they don't carry
the same kinds of, you know,they weren't traumatizing in
the way that that math was. SoI , I think we'll share like a
few of our takeaways. I'm, I'mex very excited to, to learn
about yours, Bethany. We'llshare some of you, the audience
you've been leaving, commentsand tweets and whatnot. And
(05:02):
we'll share a bunch of those.
And we also have a couple ofquestions that are still open
that we might pick up in alater season. And I think one
of them is like, to Bethanyyour comment about like, the
goal of helping caregivers andteachers do different stuff in
math class to reduce mathanxiety. I find myself more and
(05:22):
more curious about is theresomething above the teachers
and caregivers that is actuallydetermining a lot of math
anxiety? Like if every teacherand every caregiver was doing
the right stuff, let's saywhatever that is. Like there
are ways that math ispositioned in society and used
(05:42):
for social ends that I wondersometimes if that is part of
what creates meth anxiety nomatter what goes on in the home
or the classroom. Anyway, Ijust wanna like bracket that.
Let's just put that at the end.
I'll be super curious to circleback on that. But yeah, for
now, can we talk about some ofour takeaways?
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (05:59):
Let's dive in. You know, Dan, we had
five episodes so far. What ,what was your first, what are
you taking away from thisseason?
Dan Meyer (06:13):
So my first one I share with listener, Becks
Drummond, who said the idea ofvalidation is one I'll be
passing on to my studentteachers. The importance of
acknowledging not only thatmistakes are good, but that
math is hard and can feelalienating are great messages
for them to take forward intothe primary classroom. So I
(06:33):
think that like our guestswalked an interesting line or
encouraged teachers to do thesame about what happens when
someone expresses feelings ofmath, anxiety. And I, I was
really appreciative of, of HiraRamirez and Aaron Maloney who
were talking about, it's, it'simportant to validate that and
say, Hey, that is, that is areal thing. Like, that's not,
(06:54):
like you're not making that up.
And then also not to leavestudents within that feeling.
So to validate it, but then notto say what we find. I think
what we, what the researchersthat we interviewed found for a
lot of caregivers and teachers,which is that they'll , uh, say
it's like, excuse it as apermanent condition. Like I
always, I always , I was nogood at math, so that's okay.
(07:15):
You feel that way, there's noneed for you to do anything
about that. Or for a , ateacher to do the same thing.
There was a line that our, our,our guests drew between
validating and excusing. Forinstance, I thought was really
useful for me, if it's been awhile since you've heard
Gerardo Ramirez, here's a quickclip of what we're describing.
Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (07:36):
For a lot of kids, it becomes a
normalized message that if youfear math, that's okay. Join
the club. Right? But we have tobe careful about that cuz a lot
of math anxiety researcherswill oftentimes say, part of
what leads to math anxiety isadults normalizing that it's
okay to be scared of math. So Ithink a lot of times adults,
teachers, for instance, mathteachers, they'll tell kids,
(07:58):
you know , um, if you'rescared, that's okay. And so a
lot of the math anxietycommunity says, no, no, no,
you're not supposed to do that.
But my recent view is it'sdifferent. I view that as a
form of validation because mathis hard. And so telling kids
like, look, it's actually easyif you just try. I don't think
that's true. It's actually justhard. And I think even if it
(08:19):
was easy to the kid, it feelshard. And I think something
that's not really well studiedright now in our field is , um,
the value of validatingpeople's math negative math
experiences. We don't want tovalidate that cuz we think that
we're gonna reinforce that. Butactually I think the opposite.
I think when you validatepeople's negative math
experiences, it helps 'em tofeel that , um, they can handle
(08:42):
it. They can start to takecontrol over their own
emotions.
Dan Meyer (08:44):
What'd you think about that?
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (08:46):
Yeah, definitely. This idea that it's
not a fixed condition, it canbe challenging. This can be
hard. Yes. And what's also trueis that we can navigate this
together. And so I also, youknow, Erin Maloney and Gerardo
Ramirez both touched on it andtouched on that line, like you
said. But I also really, youknow, remember Heidi Sabnani,
(09:08):
we were talking to her aboutcoaches and the way that
coaches working with teacherscan help carve out spaces where
those teachers can askquestions.
Heidi Sabnani (09:20):
If you listen to teachers, they will work with
you. Like if you validate whatwhat happens to them and
acknowledge that sometimes thatstill happens to us. I mean, I
still have experiences likethat. Sometimes I'll walk into
a classroom and I'm like, oh, Iforgot how to do that. And so
stopping and saying like, okayeverybody, this is what's
happening to me right now.
(09:40):
the vulnerability youhave, you have to think about
that. Even if you don't haveexperiences of math anxiety in
your own life. Let's say youalways rocked out in math and
you're now a math specialistand you love it. You think it's
the most spectacular things.
There's some other element inyour life where you face some
anxiety. All of us do. So it'sabout thinking about, okay,
(10:05):
like this is where I experienceanxiety. Can I find that in my,
the teachers that I work with?
And then can my teachers findthat in the students they work
with?
Bethany Lockhart Johns (10:15):
Because so often for teachers we think,
oh, I'm supposed to have thisfigured out. I'm supposed to
know how to do this. Or I'vebeen teaching this for how many
years, I should know it. Andwe're always learning, right?
We're always trying to look atmaterial in a new way or we're
being asked to look at a newway, or hopefully our students
are bringing new ways for us tolook at it. And so can there be
(10:40):
a space where a teacher canhave permission, feel safe, and
have permission to be unsure?
Right? I love yeah . And , anda coach can help create that
space for a teacher.
Dan Meyer (10:55):
I , yeah, I love that analog as with so much of
what we do in education, thesame approaches and ideas
about, you know, studentlearning apply to teacher
learning. And yeah, I lovethat. I, I definitely resonate
with this feeling of, oh no, Idon't know what is going on.
Like, I don't understand howthis student is thinking or I
don't know where I went wrongin my solution of this problem.
(11:17):
And for a teacher to be able tosay, this is real. I'm feeling
anxious, but it's not where I'mgonna stay, feels very
analogous to this , what welove for students as well.
Another comment that I love wasfrom , uh, listener Liesel ,
um, who mentioned that ignoringpeople's past experiences with
math isn't helpful. We need togo there, talk about it and
(11:39):
heal from it. That was onTwitter. Um, I just think that
that speaks really loudly to adimension of the work of
teaching that is about, that's, that's social, that's , uh,
interpersonal , um, thatrestores a person's sense of
themselves. So I, that was my,one of my big takeaways from
our season long investigationsof math anxiety. Bethany, I'd
love to know what, what youtook away from that season. Any
(12:00):
big observations from you?
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (12:01):
I'd say one of my favorite
takeaways is really this ideaof redefining math. About
talking about math infundamentally different ways.
So we had two guests who I feellike really touched on that
Rosemarie Trulio from SesameWorkshop. She talked so much
(12:23):
about ways that we canintegrate math in just our
everyday life. You know, shetalked about how many moments
caregivers can find to, to havethese joyful interactions with
their kiddos aroundmathematics. And of course,
Rosemarie is from SesameWorkshop. And I actually, I
(12:43):
have, I have a quick SesameStreet story. Dan Meyer, we
recently introduced SesameStreet to my toddler, and he
was saying something aboutGrover, which, hello, everybody
loves Grover. And I said, oh,you mean like Super Grover? We
were talking about likebrushing your teeth or
something. I was like, oh yeah,we're gonna brush our teeth
like super Grover. And he said,two point . And I said, two
(13:04):
point. He said, two point . Andmy husband had to tell me, it's
Super Grover 2.0. Look at thatmath happening. My child is
talking about decimals. Andhe's two years old.
Dan Meyer (13:17):
Everywhere. It's everywhere. Yeah ,
Bethany Lockhart Johnso (13:20):
That's fantastic. But we , I mean, is
Sesame Street is so iconic andwe talked about how we have
these good associations withit, and it's a chance to sit
down with your kiddo andexperience some fun songs and
games together. But as RoseMarie said, it's also
everywhere all around us, andwe can learn how to engage with
(13:43):
our kiddos in these positiveways. I wanna also share a clip
from Marjorie Schaeffer . Shewas one of our researchers and
she was talking about an app,bedtime math. And I want you
to, I want you to first listento this clip about expanding
the definition of math. The
Dr. Marjorie Schaeffer (14:01):
Hope is that for high math , anxious
families, these interactionsare fun and playful. They don't
look like fights over homework.
They're just conversations thatfamilies can have around topics
that are naturally interestingto children. And our hope is
that when families have lots ofthese positive load stakes
interactions, they actually cansee that we can talk about math
(14:23):
in unstressful ways, in lots ofways, right? We can also do
this at the grocery store. Wecan also do this while we're
cooking in the kitchen. Itdoesn't just have to be fights
over homework,
Bethany Lockhart Johnso (14:33):
Right?
So fun, joyful, low stress ,casual conversations. I mean,
these are words that we don'tnormally hear, you know, when
we're talking about math. Andthese are invitations for us to
talk about math infundamentally different ways.
Dan Meyer (14:51):
Yeah, I, I loved , um, the contributions we had.
We had like researchers on ,um, like Dr. Erin Maloney, Dr.
Carter Ramirez, and we hadpeople who were more
practitioner oriented, likeRosemary Trulio and I would put
Marjorie Schaffer in kind ofboth camps where she's
developing this app and alsostudying it. And what was great
about having the practitionerson for me was that they were
(15:15):
out there kind of proposingsome novel solutions to the
issue. The problem of mathanxiety, where I feel like a
lot of, not just, not just likethis did not happen with our
interviewees, but I hear a lotfrom researchers. They'll,
they'll explain the problem ofmath anxiety from the
perspective of how it likereproduces through parents,
through caregivers. Which forme it is just, it's, it's a
(15:36):
little bit unsatisfying. It'slike, okay, well where did they
get it? And oh , well, it wasthe , their , you know, their
grand , their own parents,their grandparents and, and
their teachers. And , andgenerationally it keeps on
propagating, but I just wannaknow like, how do you interrupt
it? Like where did the, youknow, the , what was patient
zero of math anxiety, who thenspread it to the entirety of
the human race? And so I , Ilove the conversations with
Trulio and Schafer wherethey're proposing some, some
(15:58):
methods for interrupting mathanxiety. That was a , that was
really exciting. Um, and I , I, I look forward to seeing more
research on what they're up to.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (16:08):
Kind of tying into that takeaway,
another takeaway I'm leavingthis season with Dan is really
figuring out how we make a mathroutine, right? So Marjorie
Shaffer , when she talked aboutthat at Bedtime math, she was
really talking about how thiscan be something that families
do every night, two to threeminutes to have these
(16:30):
conversations. And they reallysaw through their research that
that it made an impact. It madean impact. And it was shifting
the beliefs about when andwhere math can happen, right?
But it, those routines don'tjust have to happen in the
home. I loved how GerardoRamirez, and I wanna shout out
(16:50):
one of our listeners, Megan ,she shared that her favorite
tidbit was how Dr. Ramirezsuggested the teachers give
this same assignment multipletimes to build students'
confidence, right? And helpthem to see their progress. And
I thought that was such a funroutine. Take a listen to his
clip about that.
Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (17:10):
One of the, my favorite
recommendations is to keepreassigning assignments the
same exact assignment for say,three weeks back to back . So
if in week one you do thehomework assignment, you do
okay, you don't do so greatwhen week two you do it, you
give the exact same assignmentand now the student can see
like, wow, okay, this , thiswas much easier. And then week
(17:31):
three, you give the exact sameassignment that's now the kids
feeling really confident . Andthe reason why that's great is
because it helps kids to seethat they're growing in
confidence. A lot of times kidsdon't get to see that because
we're constantly throwing newassessments at them. And so
they're never seeing thatgrowth. All they're seeing is a
new challenge. A a newchallenge. A new challenge. So
I think we need to set upsituations where they can feel
(17:53):
that they're growing when wekeep the assessment static.
That can be a , a formativeassessment, for instance, it
doesn't have to be a summativeassessment.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (18:01):
I mean, that's a no cost
potentially powerful routine,right. That teachers could do
in the classroom.
Dan Meyer (18:08):
Yeah, very into it.
Yeah. Uh, first want to saythat you've been very
encouraging to me personally,Bethany, about routines in the
home for decreasing mathanxiety and increasing math
thinking around just like,let's count stuff up that we're
doing. Or you know, like thosekinds of, I don't know , like
yeah, mostly around counting,counting stuff, you know , uh,
(18:30):
or giving , uh, one kid threepieces of chocolate and the
other kid, you know, like onemore and say, how many more do
you need for it to be equal?
Like, stuff like that just beenlike, fun for me. And uh, so I
appreciate that and we got alot of that this season. And
the other is , I like, I , Idefinitely agree with both you
listener Megan , just like howexciting it is that a small
intervention like that couldhelp students experience, like,
(18:52):
oh, a thing that I felt anxiousabout then is not anxiety
producing for me now. Extremelycool. And I also wanna shout
out to folks , um, who, whoweave that into their
assessment practices , uh, veryintentionally. Uh, where, you
know, like you receive anassessment on a math topic, you
know, this week and if youdon't do well on it, we show
(19:12):
that same assessment to youagain multiple times. This is
often called standards-basedgrading, where students have
multiple chances to demonstratetheir understanding of a math
topic. Cuz I don't, I don'tcare when you learn it, I care
that you learn it. Um, sothat's just a , I don't know ,
I found in my own practice thatwas really helpful for taking
the temperature down on mathanxiety. So I , I , yeah, I
(19:33):
love that we're not justtalking about changing your
beliefs and you know, these, Iwhat's in your head about how
you define math, but really youcan act your way into new
beliefs. Like your assignmentscan help change beliefs , um,
just as much as the other wayaround. Really cool stuff.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (19:48):
I also think there sometimes when
teachers are presented with anidea like that, I feel like I
hear that voice in the lounge,the person saying, but I don't
have time to give them theassignment every week. We gotta
keep moving, you know, we gottaget through this. But like you
said, it's not about when youlearn it, it's like, do you
learn it? And you don't have todo that with every assignment.
I mean, even doing it a coupletimes throughout the year could
(20:11):
be enough of a touchstone, Ithink, where you could say,
Hey, remember how thatassignment felt impossible at
first? This one might feelimpossible today, but remember
how we revisited it? Or youknow, mid-year give an
assignment from the beginningof the year that, you know,
felt really big and scary, butyou've learned so much. And so
often we don't have that spaceand time to pause and say, oh
(20:33):
wait a second, here's a reallylike tangible concrete example
of my growth. And I think yeah,like that, that diminishing uh,
diminishing the anxiety byfinding ways to build up your
like reserves of, I don't knowhow to say it other than like
your I can do it.
Dan Meyer (20:53):
Yeah. Your persistence. Yeah ,
perseverance. All that feelsvery closely related to ideas
of math, anxiety, how to helppeople decrease one and
increase the other. So it'sbeen, yeah, it's been great to
check in with you Bethany, onwhat you pulled away from the
season, especially with alittle bit of room to think
about it. And I think that inaddition to those takeaways, I
also, like, I took away someopen , there's some questions
(21:16):
that are still open for me thatI'd love to kick around with
you just a little bit. And oneof them was around the
relationship between timedtests and math anxiety. And
this came up towards the end asalmost a , a throwaway remark
with Dr. Erin Maloney. Ithought she, like, she
introduces it , uh, in a , froma very un uh , her own
(21:38):
perspective. And I'm not sure Iagree with it or disagree with
it yet. Um , but I want to makesure that clip goes to the
audience here so we can , wecan think about it together.
Dr. Erin Maloney (21:46):
So I actually, again, I'm gonna be a
little bit controversial, so Idon't hate time tests in the
way that a lot of people do.
Uh, but I, so I love time topractice. So I think once we've
got to a point where childrenhave a fairly decent
understanding of skill , like,of a skill, once they've got a
fairly decent grasp on it, thenI love the idea of the, the
(22:08):
time to practice. So it can bestill in a low pressure
situation where in many ways itdoesn't matter if you get the
answer to the question correct,but we're practicing doing it
in a situation in which youmight be feeling a little bit
of pressure, but it's not realpressure, if that makes sense.
And I think that can be really,really useful for students. And
(22:29):
again, it can be done in a funway, right? Like it doesn't
have to be these super intenseways. It can be fun, but I
think that in life there aresituations in which the time
that it takes you to complete aproblem matter. And I think
that we have to make sure thatwe don't get too far away from
that.
Dan Meyer (22:47):
So, Bethany, I'd love to know what your reaction
was to that clip. I don'tremember that. We like actually
did a whole lot of digestingwith Erin live about it. Uh ,
we just kind of said so long ,see you for , see you on
holiday. Cuz we all, cuz we alllove each other now. And I'm
not gonna like, you know,question anything you say cause
the vibe is so , so great. Um ,but what's, what's your take
there? How are you feelingabout that?
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (23:08):
Oh, you know, I actually asked a
friend of mine whose daughter,I remembered her saying
something about time test . Cuzso often you hear, oh yeah,
math, anxiety, time tests ,like that's the, you know, kind
of the one thing that peoplesay they can remember giving
them like a moment of anxiety.
And she was talking about howmuch her daughter loved time
tests because it helped her tosee like how much better she
(23:29):
did. And it, it, it was achallenge for her. And I was
like, that is such a differentexperience than I remember. So
I , I don't know. I, I wonderabout that because if a student
is already , uh, when I say Iwonder about that, I mean about
that what Erin was suggesting,what Dr. Me was suggesting. If
(23:49):
a student is already feelinganxious and you say, okay,
we're gonna try this, butremember it's not pressure,
it's, it's, we're just tryingto see the time. I don't know,
anytime you put time onsomething, again, it's that
question of like, does mathneed to happen quickly in order
for it to, in order for you toconsider yourself a
(24:11):
mathematician? I always thinkabout that in terms of, okay,
what's gonna take me, it mighttake me a little longer. What
about my student who it takes alittle longer to figure it out
or I, I need a little bit moretime to marinate on it and if
all of a sudden I'm put in thissituation where I'm being asked
to time something, I don'tknow. I, i, I don't disagree
that it could be used as atool. I just don't know that I
(24:35):
would trust myself as a teacherto use it in a way that would
not cause anxiety. A lot timetests , you know, what
, what did you think about it,Dan?
Dan Meyer (24:44):
Yeah, I mean I, I've been tuned into some
discussions of the researcharound this and it's, it's true
that there's no, like, there'sno studies that I know of that
have been referred to me thatsay time tests cause math,
anxiety, there's some realcorrelational evidence. Um, and
it's also like really hard tostudy the issue because you'd
(25:06):
have to like give one group ofkids no timing and this other
group, this, you have to givethem this thing that is,
there's, you know, anecdotal,but a lot of anecdotal evidence
causes anxiety. Um, that's thatthere's some ethical
considerations about studyingit. Um, I just, yeah, I guess
the question for me hinges onhow much is timing , um,
(25:26):
inherent to the work ofmathematics. Like if I was
trying to get good at havingconversations about my
relationship with my wife, forinstance, that is not an area
where timing is valuable. Likewe, we, like, we talk as long
as it takes, you know, like tohave doing it quickly is not a
virtue. And there's areas like, um, changing the tires on a
(25:48):
car in the pit of a racetrackwhere timing super valuable.
And so you'd want to practicethat with a timer and get
faster and faster. And for me,I just kind of questioned the
premise that like is doingthings fast, a part of math, I
think doing things fluently,like being able to, to work
with sums and products and workwith numbers , um, fluently and
(26:11):
automatically without having to, to drag, you know,
relationships up out of, youknow, to work them out in short
term memory, working memory,again, that feels super
necessary, but is doing it fastnecessary. And that's why I
just, to me, I just say nope.
And the fact that so manypeople, even though anecdotally
are like, this really hurt me.
I'm like, okay, that's enoughfor me. And also the fact that
(26:35):
there's like abundant, abundantways to develop fluency , uh,
to develop automaticity thatdon't involve a timer. It just,
it feels, the timer just feelsto me like the, like the least
creative way to developautomaticity. Like look at any,
pick any game off the shelf,any video game off the shelf,
you know, and like they aredeveloping automaticity in , in
its players in ways that oftenvery often don't involve timing
(26:57):
and are often very successfulat it. So those are some of my
thoughts about it. It was areally provocative comment and
I , I'm not like, this is notlike top 10 most confident
opinions Dan Meyer has, butit's like that's where , that's
where I'm at right now.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (27:11):
Yeah.
And it , I do think it's one ofthose things where I would
trust Dr. Maloney to, afterhaving that conversation with
her, like I would wanna knowmore. I would trust her to try
it in a way that would reflecther beliefs about her students
in a way that would not causemore anxiety. But in general,
like you said, here's somethingthat we know a lot of people
(27:32):
feel anxious about. Let's notjust let's cut it out, right?
Like, why do we need to do itright? Is it, are the potential
gains worth it? And I, I'mlearning how to play the piano
and I catch myself like it'ssupposed to be at a certain
rate, right? It's about , youknow, it's my , and my teacher
keeps saying, okay, just goreally slow. And then when I
try to speed it up, or when Itry to do it at, at pace, I
(27:55):
feel anxious, I feel , and thenI have to remember, I have to
like talk back to myself andsay, whoa, this is, remember
this is one, this is for fun. And two, like, you
don't have to be at that speedyet, right? But eventually that
fluidity will come and like yousaid, that fluency, that those
connections will, will build.
(28:15):
Dan remember when Dr. Val Henryjoined us on our past season,
she was talking about fluencyand she was thinking about the
timing , um, that studentswould be able to come to an
answer in three seconds orless, right? But it , her focus
wasn't about like, I'm , she'snot sitting there with a
stopwatch one, two, the , she'sreally just trying to more see
is the answer there. Are theymaking that connection quickly?
(28:39):
And if she was sitting therewith a timer and a stopwatch,
it would probably cause a lotof anxiety. I , I'm really glad
you actually brought that quoteup, Dan, because, you know, we
definitely didn't think we weregonna solve meth anxiety in
five episodes or less, but I, Ithink it's so good to remember
that there are these openquestions that we can keep
marinating on.
Dan Meyer (28:59):
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And indeed may
marinate on them in a futureseason. Who knows? Watch out.
Um, let's see. I, I guess Iwanna just get your thoughts on
one other open question for me,which is , uh, as I alluded to
at the start of the episode,everything we talked about,
every guest was focused at likethe home, the school or below,
(29:20):
like all the action took placein the home or inside the
school. And I don't recall muchdiscussion of what happens like
outside of the school, outsideof the home. Like what, what
the world is doing withmathematics and how that might
affect students and their,their feelings of anxiety. So
before this call, I was justkind of curious, like, I mean,
(29:41):
there's, there's othercountries in the world, which
is wild and they have it , it ,it winds up being the case that
like math is experienceddifferently there. You know,
like , uh, math is not auniform abstract thing which
everyone experiences in thesame way worldwide. So we have
these , um, these exams like,like Pisa , um, administered by
(30:03):
the O E C D and it , it is atest of math knowledge, but it
also asks students a bunch ofquestions about their
experience in math, some ofwhich are around math anxiety.
Like they ask students , um,to, you know, agree or disagree
with this statement. I oftenworry that it'll be difficult
for me in mathematics classes,or I get very tense when I have
to do mathematics, homework andso on. Questions like that. And
(30:26):
it winds up being the case thatthere are countries that
experience where the studentsexperience much less math
anxiety than the United Stateses especially Scandinavian
countries, Denmark, Finland,Norway, Sweden , um, just as
examples. And so I don't know,like do you have any thoughts
about that? Like, about whynationally we have a certain
(30:50):
kind of experience of anxietythat is by no means the most,
we're by no means not the mostmath anxious country. But what
are your thoughts about what,what society is doing with math
that might contribute tostudent's sense of, of anxiety
and mathematics?
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (31:06):
Wow, Dan, I mean, way to like throw
in that bit , you know, I guessI, I don't know. I think I just
go back to the takeaway Ishared about needing to really
shift the conversation aboutmath, you know, shift the
conversation about what math isand the way that we talk about
math. And I, I go back to how Isee examples of math portrayed,
(31:28):
you know, it's the , it's theeasy joke on Saturday Night
Live. It's the, the little digin the joke book or in the, the
board book I was reading to mytoddler where like the mom is
like stumped by a mouth problemand oh, ha ha ha you know, it,
it's this kind of pervasiveconversation. I kind of liken
it to , um, you know, when ,uh, when , uh, Michelle Obama
(31:50):
started bringing upconversations about nutrition
and about movement, and she wastrying to shift the
conversation about how we talkabout moving every day , how we
talk about food, right? Andthere were some folks who were
really politicizing that, andregardless of your politics,
(32:12):
she's trying to shift adiscourse, right? She's trying
to, right, she's trying to havea conversation about what we
eat, how we move our bodies.
And so I kind of feel like it'sat that level. Like how do we,
you know, not necessarily who'sin, in the presidency, but how
do we in these broader spacesshift the conversation about
what math is and what it lookslike and where do we see it
(32:36):
happening in all careers inlike, where do we speak back
when we hear somebody sayinglike, you know, oh, I hated
math too. Or, oh, you'll neverneed math, or, oh, you know,
it, it , I , I don't have theanswer, but I think there is a
certain amount of likeacceptable digs for mathematics
and yeah . That, that we kindof are so used to that we, we
(32:59):
might not even recognize that Ithink basically gives us like
low buzz of anxiety across thenation kind of thing.
Dan Meyer (33:05):
Yeah, I, that makes a lot of sense to me. There's,
there's like a lot of value in,you know, spokespeople for the
value of math. That's all,that's all valuable. Like math
could definitely use better, abetter public relations
manager. I think I, I wonderlike about, for instance,
campaigns, like can we justlike talk, have better messages
about math and , and get peoplewho are very skilled like
(33:27):
Michelle Obama at, at talkingabout them, but then there's
like the, like this socialstuff that happens around the
message that makes the messagejust like not effective. Like
for instance, like what gooddoes it do for me to hear a
message about good nutrition ifI live in a food desert, for
instance, or to hear about thevalue of exercise if I'm
working 16 hours, for instance.
Like, and so I just wonderabout like the good messages
(33:48):
about math, you know, what isabove them that is limiting
their effect? And a theory thatI'll just like toss to you just
to, just to think about islike, those digs happen because
math kind of feels like MichaelScott in the office. Maybe like
it's your boss who you don'trespect, like math is your
(34:10):
boss. Like math determines somuch of like what jobs you are
allowed to have. It determineslike whether you can go to
college, you know, like, oh,you didn't pass the placement
exam. Like enjoy remedial mathas a college freshman, which
you may not get out of, youknow, math is calling all these
shots. And I think that peopledon't respect the boss for some
(34:33):
good reason because they knowthat like they don't need math
to be, you know, like a , a a ,a marketing manager or they
don't need ma like that muchmath to be a nurse, for
instance. Um , and so like Ithink that's, that might be
where the digs come from as akind of catharsis , um, just
like people in in the office,you know, make fun of their
(34:55):
boss. It's cathartic. I don'tknow , uh, just, just riffing
here with you.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (34:59):
No, I appreciate that perspective and
it reminds me of, we had , uh,an amazing guest , uh, from his
organization, public math , uh,Omo Moses and his father Bob
Moses started the algebraproject and we talked about
that a little bit and reallyrecognizing math as a
gatekeeper, right? Math as away of actually preventing the
(35:20):
lack of these, passing thesecertain math courses or being
even open to taking certainmath courses like being told by
counselors, oh no, you can'ttake that course or that course
isn't for you, was ultimatelygonna prevent students from
having access to certain fields, certain career fields
graduating. I mean, it's huge,right? Right . And it's
(35:40):
pervasive and I think there isa much bigger conversation and
, uh, yeah, I, I'm a littledistracted by you bringing up
the office, Dan, cuz you knowhow much I love the office.
Dan Meyer (35:51):
I do. I I knew it was a risk when I brought it
up, but I felt like it was a ,a really useful touchstone and
I appreciate you poweringthrough. Yeah, I, you know, I
don't, I don't, I do not wantto be , uh, to present myself
as disagreeing with Bob Moses,who is , or his son Oma , who's
, they've both done so much formath and for people. I do
think, like, it's interestingto me like there is a
(36:12):
gatekeeper and one approach isto like help people get through
the gate and the other is totear down the gate. And I'm
just, I'm just feeling rightnow, like we've offered, I
think our guests have offeredteachers and parents so many
ideas for how to reduce mathanxiety. But another approach
that I hope we'll all consideris that math anxiety could be
reduced if maths use as agatekeeper were dismantled. If
(36:35):
math were not limiting you froma livelihood you deserve as a
human being, then like we'dfeel less anxious about it. But
right now, math is this thingthat people perceive as
irrelevant, but which alsoholds just bonkers power over
your life and your ability to ,to live with dignity. Tho those
are two different problems wecould try to solve. One is
(36:55):
teachers and one is citizens.
And I , I , I like thinkingabout them both.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (36:59):
I love that. Dan, I really
appreciate you offering thatperspective. It's interesting,
I think I'm not in a gatetearing down mental space, so
it is helpful for me toremember that it is that the
gate is constructed andthat it is not an inherent and
real thing and it is somethingthat is made. And I think
(37:20):
sometimes I'm aware of that.
And then other times when I'mlike in the midst of a bunch of
bureaucratic stuff that I'mtrying to navigate, I'm like,
well of course this is just theway it is . You know, so it is
a reminder that it is aconstruct and it is possible to
experience math in a moreorganic, juicy way that's just
(37:46):
out in the world, that's just apart of our lives and really
shift that conversation. Sotoday as we're recording this,
I need that reminder, Dan, so Iappreciate it.
Dan Meyer (37:56):
I always appreciate , uh, chopping up big ideas
with you, Bethany. It's beenquite a ride this season,
really. I've loved having likea single theme, a big one to
dig into , uh, deeply. And Ilook , look forward to chopping
up something equally big withyou. Uh, next season
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (38:12):
We have actually got some special
summer episodes in the worksand we're gonna be looking
forward to diving into theworld of AI and math
Dan Meyer (38:20):
So hot right now.
Special summer episode pr (38:21):
This new generation of AI is a step
function. Different venturecapitalists and those in this
space are really identifyingeducation as one of the first
sectors that it willdramatically change.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (38:35):
To make sure you catch all of
that, subscribe to Math TeacherLounge, wherever you get your
podcast. And if you liked thisseason, we'd love for you to
leave us a review. But evenmore than that, please tell
someone about this right summerbreak if you're listening to
this real time , like, as it's,as it's being released. And
(38:55):
what better way to , uh, spreadsome, spread some teacher love
than to say, you know what? Ithelped me kind of think about
my practice maybe in apotentially different way, is
this podcast, give it a listenwhenever you're ready to
listen. If you
Dan Meyer (39:08):
Folks want to get in touch with us, by all means,
hit us up at MTL show onTwitter or math teacher lounge
gmail.com or the math teacherlounge community on Facebook.
We'd love to hear from you whatyou've been taken away from
this season , um, and whatyou're up to right now in the
world of math and teaching.
Bethany Lockhart Johnso (39:25):
Thanks so much for joining us and we
really look forward to divinginto more topics and episodes
with you very soon.
I find myself more and more curious about is there
something above the teachersand caregivers that is actually
determining a lot of mathanxiety?
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:12):
Hi, and welcome to Math Teacher
Lounge. I'm Bethany LockhartJohnson .
Dan Meyer (00:16):
And I'm Dan Meyer.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:18):
This whole season we've been talking
about math anxiety. We've beenspeaking to, to great thinkers,
folks who are activelyresearching and trying to
understand math anxiety. Wedefinitely want you to listen
to the previous five episodesin this season if you haven't
already. But as we wrap up thisseason, Dan, we are going to
(00:42):
like, just you and I, we'regonna share some of our biggest
takeaways, some open questions,what's vibe and, and I wanna
know what you know, Dan, Idon't get enough of your
thoughts and opinions. DanMeyer.
Dan Meyer (00:54):
Same. I should, I should put you on my newsletter
list. I mean, I , I have a ,like a math education
newsletter, dan meyer.sub.com.
Um , but also I have a personalnewsletter for like non-math
education ideas and theoriesand hypotheses. I'd be happy to
include you on that. Oh ,please. And I wanna say it is
really good to see you too.
It's been really good for me,like to digest a lot of the
(01:16):
thinking. Yes . That went onduring our interviews. I'm
excited to chop that up withyou today. I , I would love to
know first, like as you thinkabout how we got into this
season, what for you felt likeexciting and necessary about a
season on math anxiety?
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (01:33):
Well, listeners will know that we
started doing more of a themelast season. We, we focused on
joy and mathematics. And so Ialready was really excited
about having a whole seasonrevolving around one idea so we
could kind of deep dive andmath anxiety. You know, we
shared about it in our mathstories in a previous episode.
(01:56):
And, you know, I navigated andnavigate math anxiety and it's
something that I see every dayin classrooms with other
teachers, with other adults.
Just, it's real, it'spervasive. And so I was really
excited to really talk to folkswho are thinking about this and
looking at it from differentangles. So it's been something
(02:17):
that we've gotten really goodfeedback on. What, what did
you, I , I don't know , mathanxiety has not really been
something that you said hasbeen really present for you,
although there have beenmoments, but Right . What did
you feel? Did you feel likethere were gonna be topics that
were relevant? Did you feellike, what were you feeling
before the season?
Dan Meyer (02:33):
Yeah, you're right.
I think we have had differentrelationships in mathematics to
mathematics. Uh, you know, youand I are like different
people, different identitiesthat have been socialized in
different ways to be seen aslike mathematically smart. And
so I, I obviously like had alot of that going on. So math
anxiety was not like a for alot of people that we
interviewed for yourself. Maybealso, this was like a, a bit of
self-study, like this was , welearned a bit about ourselves
(02:55):
through this. For me though, Ithink I feel really motivated.
I , I love that math is, hassuch a high status in the world
sometimes, like I dig thatcause I do math and it's big
for people and the presidentshouts it out sometimes and
says we need more math teachersor whatever. But it does seem a
little bit unfair sometimesthat like all these kids are
(03:18):
experiencing really negativeemotions about a thing that
society says you need to begood at. And in in fact, will
force you to sit and learn for180 days a year for up upwards
of 12 years of your onlychildhood. You've got one of
them. And people, you know,like yourself, like many adults
(03:41):
that I meet, they carry thesekinds of scars from , uh, of
math anxiety well intoadulthood. And so that to me,
like just as a socialphenomenon, math anxiety to me
is just really motivating .
Like , I don't wanna be a partof that. I don't wanna be a
part of that story. It wasn'treally my story, but I get how
I am visiting that story onpeople inadvertently how people
(04:02):
experience that story. And I, Iwanna understand it and have
nothing to do with it. Sothat's been the , what's
excited me about all of ourguests. And the interviews,
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (04:10):
Your math story definitely involved
far fewer tears than mine. Butthink about your role. I mean,
you're , you created this, youhelped to create this
curriculum that is going toimpact thousands and thousands
of students. And the moreteachers and parents and care
caregivers understand aboutmath anxiety, the better we can
(04:31):
help turn the tide away frommath as being this big scary
thing. It doesn't have to beyour favorite subject, but it
shouldn't cause like pain andanxiety.
Dan Meyer (04:41):
Yeah, I feel apathetic about lots of
subjects that I learned in myschooling, but they don't carry
the same kinds of, you know,they weren't traumatizing in
the way that that math was. SoI , I think we'll share like a
few of our takeaways. I'm, I'mex very excited to, to learn
about yours, Bethany. We'llshare some of you, the audience
you've been leaving, commentsand tweets and whatnot. And
(05:02):
we'll share a bunch of those.
And we also have a couple ofquestions that are still open
that we might pick up in alater season. And I think one
of them is like, to Bethanyyour comment about like, the
goal of helping caregivers andteachers do different stuff in
math class to reduce mathanxiety. I find myself more and
(05:22):
more curious about is theresomething above the teachers
and caregivers that is actuallydetermining a lot of math
anxiety? Like if every teacherand every caregiver was doing
the right stuff, let's saywhatever that is. Like there
are ways that math ispositioned in society and used
(05:42):
for social ends that I wondersometimes if that is part of
what creates meth anxiety nomatter what goes on in the home
or the classroom. Anyway, Ijust wanna like bracket that.
Let's just put that at the end.
I'll be super curious to circleback on that. But yeah, for
now, can we talk about some ofour takeaways?
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (05:59):
Let's dive in. You know, Dan, we had
five episodes so far. What ,what was your first, what are
you taking away from thisseason?
Dan Meyer (06:13):
So my first one I share with listener, Becks
Drummond, who said the idea ofvalidation is one I'll be
passing on to my studentteachers. The importance of
acknowledging not only thatmistakes are good, but that
math is hard and can feelalienating are great messages
for them to take forward intothe primary classroom. So I
(06:33):
think that like our guestswalked an interesting line or
encouraged teachers to do thesame about what happens when
someone expresses feelings ofmath, anxiety. And I, I was
really appreciative of, of HiraRamirez and Aaron Maloney who
were talking about, it's, it'simportant to validate that and
say, Hey, that is, that is areal thing. Like, that's not,
(06:54):
like you're not making that up.
And then also not to leavestudents within that feeling.
So to validate it, but then notto say what we find. I think
what we, what the researchersthat we interviewed found for a
lot of caregivers and teachers,which is that they'll , uh, say
it's like, excuse it as apermanent condition. Like I
always, I always , I was nogood at math, so that's okay.
(07:15):
You feel that way, there's noneed for you to do anything
about that. Or for a , ateacher to do the same thing.
There was a line that our, our,our guests drew between
validating and excusing. Forinstance, I thought was really
useful for me, if it's been awhile since you've heard
Gerardo Ramirez, here's a quickclip of what we're describing.
Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (07:36):
For a lot of kids, it becomes a
normalized message that if youfear math, that's okay. Join
the club. Right? But we have tobe careful about that cuz a lot
of math anxiety researcherswill oftentimes say, part of
what leads to math anxiety isadults normalizing that it's
okay to be scared of math. So Ithink a lot of times adults,
teachers, for instance, mathteachers, they'll tell kids,
(07:58):
you know , um, if you'rescared, that's okay. And so a
lot of the math anxietycommunity says, no, no, no,
you're not supposed to do that.
But my recent view is it'sdifferent. I view that as a
form of validation because mathis hard. And so telling kids
like, look, it's actually easyif you just try. I don't think
that's true. It's actually justhard. And I think even if it
(08:19):
was easy to the kid, it feelshard. And I think something
that's not really well studiedright now in our field is , um,
the value of validatingpeople's math negative math
experiences. We don't want tovalidate that cuz we think that
we're gonna reinforce that. Butactually I think the opposite.
I think when you validatepeople's negative math
experiences, it helps 'em tofeel that , um, they can handle
(08:42):
it. They can start to takecontrol over their own
emotions.
Dan Meyer (08:44):
What'd you think about that?
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (08:46):
Yeah, definitely. This idea that it's
not a fixed condition, it canbe challenging. This can be
hard. Yes. And what's also trueis that we can navigate this
together. And so I also, youknow, Erin Maloney and Gerardo
Ramirez both touched on it andtouched on that line, like you
said. But I also really, youknow, remember Heidi Sabnani,
(09:08):
we were talking to her aboutcoaches and the way that
coaches working with teacherscan help carve out spaces where
those teachers can askquestions.
Heidi Sabnani (09:20):
If you listen to teachers, they will work with
you. Like if you validate whatwhat happens to them and
acknowledge that sometimes thatstill happens to us. I mean, I
still have experiences likethat. Sometimes I'll walk into
a classroom and I'm like, oh, Iforgot how to do that. And so
stopping and saying like, okayeverybody, this is what's
happening to me right now.
(09:40):
that. Even if you don't haveexperiences of math anxiety in
your own life. Let's say youalways rocked out in math and
you're now a math specialistand you love it. You think it's
the most spectacular things.
There's some other element inyour life where you face some
anxiety. All of us do. So it'sabout thinking about, okay,
(10:05):
like this is where I experienceanxiety. Can I find that in my,
the teachers that I work with?
And then can my teachers findthat in the students they work
with?
Bethany Lockhart Johns (10:15):
Because so often for teachers we think,
oh, I'm supposed to have thisfigured out. I'm supposed to
know how to do this. Or I'vebeen teaching this for how many
years, I should know it. Andwe're always learning, right?
We're always trying to look atmaterial in a new way or we're
being asked to look at a newway, or hopefully our students
are bringing new ways for us tolook at it. And so can there be
(10:40):
a space where a teacher canhave permission, feel safe, and
have permission to be unsure?
Right? I love yeah . And , anda coach can help create that
space for a teacher.
Dan Meyer (10:55):
I , yeah, I love that analog as with so much of
what we do in education, thesame approaches and ideas
about, you know, studentlearning apply to teacher
learning. And yeah, I lovethat. I, I definitely resonate
with this feeling of, oh no, Idon't know what is going on.
Like, I don't understand howthis student is thinking or I
don't know where I went wrongin my solution of this problem.
(11:17):
And for a teacher to be able tosay, this is real. I'm feeling
anxious, but it's not where I'mgonna stay, feels very
analogous to this , what welove for students as well.
Another comment that I love wasfrom , uh, listener Liesel ,
um, who mentioned that ignoringpeople's past experiences with
math isn't helpful. We need togo there, talk about it and
(11:39):
heal from it. That was onTwitter. Um, I just think that
that speaks really loudly to adimension of the work of
teaching that is about, that's, that's social, that's , uh,
interpersonal , um, thatrestores a person's sense of
themselves. So I, that was my,one of my big takeaways from
our season long investigationsof math anxiety. Bethany, I'd
love to know what, what youtook away from that season. Any
(12:00):
big observations from you?
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (12:01):
I'd say one of my favorite
takeaways is really this ideaof redefining math. About
talking about math infundamentally different ways.
So we had two guests who I feellike really touched on that
Rosemarie Trulio from SesameWorkshop. She talked so much
(12:23):
about ways that we canintegrate math in just our
everyday life. You know, shetalked about how many moments
caregivers can find to, to havethese joyful interactions with
their kiddos aroundmathematics. And of course,
Rosemarie is from SesameWorkshop. And I actually, I
(12:43):
have, I have a quick SesameStreet story. Dan Meyer, we
recently introduced SesameStreet to my toddler, and he
was saying something aboutGrover, which, hello, everybody
loves Grover. And I said, oh,you mean like Super Grover? We
were talking about likebrushing your teeth or
something. I was like, oh yeah,we're gonna brush our teeth
like super Grover. And he said,two point . And I said, two
(13:04):
point. He said, two point . Andmy husband had to tell me, it's
Super Grover 2.0. Look at thatmath happening. My child is
talking about decimals. Andhe's two years old.
Dan Meyer (13:17):
Everywhere. It's everywhere. Yeah ,
Bethany Lockhart Johnso (13:20):
That's fantastic. But we , I mean, is
Sesame Street is so iconic andwe talked about how we have
these good associations withit, and it's a chance to sit
down with your kiddo andexperience some fun songs and
games together. But as RoseMarie said, it's also
everywhere all around us, andwe can learn how to engage with
(13:43):
our kiddos in these positiveways. I wanna also share a clip
from Marjorie Schaeffer . Shewas one of our researchers and
she was talking about an app,bedtime math. And I want you
to, I want you to first listento this clip about expanding
the definition of math. The
Dr. Marjorie Schaeffer (14:01):
Hope is that for high math , anxious
families, these interactionsare fun and playful. They don't
look like fights over homework.
They're just conversations thatfamilies can have around topics
that are naturally interestingto children. And our hope is
that when families have lots ofthese positive load stakes
interactions, they actually cansee that we can talk about math
(14:23):
in unstressful ways, in lots ofways, right? We can also do
this at the grocery store. Wecan also do this while we're
cooking in the kitchen. Itdoesn't just have to be fights
over homework,
Bethany Lockhart Johnso (14:33):
Right?
So fun, joyful, low stress ,casual conversations. I mean,
these are words that we don'tnormally hear, you know, when
we're talking about math. Andthese are invitations for us to
talk about math infundamentally different ways.
Dan Meyer (14:51):
Yeah, I, I loved , um, the contributions we had.
We had like researchers on ,um, like Dr. Erin Maloney, Dr.
Carter Ramirez, and we hadpeople who were more
practitioner oriented, likeRosemary Trulio and I would put
Marjorie Schaffer in kind ofboth camps where she's
developing this app and alsostudying it. And what was great
about having the practitionerson for me was that they were
(15:15):
out there kind of proposingsome novel solutions to the
issue. The problem of mathanxiety, where I feel like a
lot of, not just, not just likethis did not happen with our
interviewees, but I hear a lotfrom researchers. They'll,
they'll explain the problem ofmath anxiety from the
perspective of how it likereproduces through parents,
through caregivers. Which forme it is just, it's, it's a
(15:36):
little bit unsatisfying. It'slike, okay, well where did they
get it? And oh , well, it wasthe , their , you know, their
grand , their own parents,their grandparents and, and
their teachers. And , andgenerationally it keeps on
propagating, but I just wannaknow like, how do you interrupt
it? Like where did the, youknow, the , what was patient
zero of math anxiety, who thenspread it to the entirety of
the human race? And so I , Ilove the conversations with
Trulio and Schafer wherethey're proposing some, some
(15:58):
methods for interrupting mathanxiety. That was a , that was
really exciting. Um, and I , I, I look forward to seeing more
research on what they're up to.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (16:08):
Kind of tying into that takeaway,
another takeaway I'm leavingthis season with Dan is really
figuring out how we make a mathroutine, right? So Marjorie
Shaffer , when she talked aboutthat at Bedtime math, she was
really talking about how thiscan be something that families
do every night, two to threeminutes to have these
(16:30):
conversations. And they reallysaw through their research that
that it made an impact. It madean impact. And it was shifting
the beliefs about when andwhere math can happen, right?
But it, those routines don'tjust have to happen in the
home. I loved how GerardoRamirez, and I wanna shout out
(16:50):
one of our listeners, Megan ,she shared that her favorite
tidbit was how Dr. Ramirezsuggested the teachers give
this same assignment multipletimes to build students'
confidence, right? And helpthem to see their progress. And
I thought that was such a funroutine. Take a listen to his
clip about that.
Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (17:10):
One of the, my favorite
recommendations is to keepreassigning assignments the
same exact assignment for say,three weeks back to back . So
if in week one you do thehomework assignment, you do
okay, you don't do so greatwhen week two you do it, you
give the exact same assignmentand now the student can see
like, wow, okay, this , thiswas much easier. And then week
(17:31):
three, you give the exact sameassignment that's now the kids
feeling really confident . Andthe reason why that's great is
because it helps kids to seethat they're growing in
confidence. A lot of times kidsdon't get to see that because
we're constantly throwing newassessments at them. And so
they're never seeing thatgrowth. All they're seeing is a
new challenge. A a newchallenge. A new challenge. So
I think we need to set upsituations where they can feel
(17:53):
that they're growing when wekeep the assessment static.
That can be a , a formativeassessment, for instance, it
doesn't have to be a summativeassessment.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (18:01):
I mean, that's a no cost
potentially powerful routine,right. That teachers could do
in the classroom.
Dan Meyer (18:08):
Yeah, very into it.
Yeah. Uh, first want to saythat you've been very
encouraging to me personally,Bethany, about routines in the
home for decreasing mathanxiety and increasing math
thinking around just like,let's count stuff up that we're
doing. Or you know, like thosekinds of, I don't know , like
yeah, mostly around counting,counting stuff, you know , uh,
(18:30):
or giving , uh, one kid threepieces of chocolate and the
other kid, you know, like onemore and say, how many more do
you need for it to be equal?
Like, stuff like that just beenlike, fun for me. And uh, so I
appreciate that and we got alot of that this season. And
the other is , I like, I , Idefinitely agree with both you
listener Megan , just like howexciting it is that a small
intervention like that couldhelp students experience, like,
(18:52):
oh, a thing that I felt anxiousabout then is not anxiety
producing for me now. Extremelycool. And I also wanna shout
out to folks , um, who, whoweave that into their
assessment practices , uh, veryintentionally. Uh, where, you
know, like you receive anassessment on a math topic, you
know, this week and if youdon't do well on it, we show
(19:12):
that same assessment to youagain multiple times. This is
often called standards-basedgrading, where students have
multiple chances to demonstratetheir understanding of a math
topic. Cuz I don't, I don'tcare when you learn it, I care
that you learn it. Um, sothat's just a , I don't know ,
I found in my own practice thatwas really helpful for taking
the temperature down on mathanxiety. So I , I , yeah, I
(19:33):
love that we're not justtalking about changing your
beliefs and you know, these, Iwhat's in your head about how
you define math, but really youcan act your way into new
beliefs. Like your assignmentscan help change beliefs , um,
just as much as the other wayaround. Really cool stuff.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (19:48):
I also think there sometimes when
teachers are presented with anidea like that, I feel like I
hear that voice in the lounge,the person saying, but I don't
have time to give them theassignment every week. We gotta
keep moving, you know, we gottaget through this. But like you
said, it's not about when youlearn it, it's like, do you
learn it? And you don't have todo that with every assignment.
I mean, even doing it a coupletimes throughout the year could
(20:11):
be enough of a touchstone, Ithink, where you could say,
Hey, remember how thatassignment felt impossible at
first? This one might feelimpossible today, but remember
how we revisited it? Or youknow, mid-year give an
assignment from the beginningof the year that, you know,
felt really big and scary, butyou've learned so much. And so
often we don't have that spaceand time to pause and say, oh
(20:33):
wait a second, here's a reallylike tangible concrete example
of my growth. And I think yeah,like that, that diminishing uh,
diminishing the anxiety byfinding ways to build up your
like reserves of, I don't knowhow to say it other than like
your I can do it.
Dan Meyer (20:53):
Yeah. Your persistence. Yeah ,
perseverance. All that feelsvery closely related to ideas
of math, anxiety, how to helppeople decrease one and
increase the other. So it'sbeen, yeah, it's been great to
check in with you Bethany, onwhat you pulled away from the
season, especially with alittle bit of room to think
about it. And I think that inaddition to those takeaways, I
also, like, I took away someopen , there's some questions
(21:16):
that are still open for me thatI'd love to kick around with
you just a little bit. And oneof them was around the
relationship between timedtests and math anxiety. And
this came up towards the end asalmost a , a throwaway remark
with Dr. Erin Maloney. Ithought she, like, she
introduces it , uh, in a , froma very un uh , her own
(21:38):
perspective. And I'm not sure Iagree with it or disagree with
it yet. Um , but I want to makesure that clip goes to the
audience here so we can , wecan think about it together.
Dr. Erin Maloney (21:46):
So I actually, again, I'm gonna be a
little bit controversial, so Idon't hate time tests in the
way that a lot of people do.
Uh, but I, so I love time topractice. So I think once we've
got to a point where childrenhave a fairly decent
understanding of skill , like,of a skill, once they've got a
fairly decent grasp on it, thenI love the idea of the, the
(22:08):
time to practice. So it can bestill in a low pressure
situation where in many ways itdoesn't matter if you get the
answer to the question correct,but we're practicing doing it
in a situation in which youmight be feeling a little bit
of pressure, but it's not realpressure, if that makes sense.
And I think that can be really,really useful for students. And
(22:29):
again, it can be done in a funway, right? Like it doesn't
have to be these super intenseways. It can be fun, but I
think that in life there aresituations in which the time
that it takes you to complete aproblem matter. And I think
that we have to make sure thatwe don't get too far away from
that.
Dan Meyer (22:47):
So, Bethany, I'd love to know what your reaction
was to that clip. I don'tremember that. We like actually
did a whole lot of digestingwith Erin live about it. Uh ,
we just kind of said so long ,see you for , see you on
holiday. Cuz we all, cuz we alllove each other now. And I'm
not gonna like, you know,question anything you say cause
the vibe is so , so great. Um ,but what's, what's your take
there? How are you feelingabout that?
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (23:08):
Oh, you know, I actually asked a
friend of mine whose daughter,I remembered her saying
something about time test . Cuzso often you hear, oh yeah,
math, anxiety, time tests ,like that's the, you know, kind
of the one thing that peoplesay they can remember giving
them like a moment of anxiety.
And she was talking about howmuch her daughter loved time
tests because it helped her tosee like how much better she
(23:29):
did. And it, it, it was achallenge for her. And I was
like, that is such a differentexperience than I remember. So
I , I don't know. I, I wonderabout that because if a student
is already , uh, when I say Iwonder about that, I mean about
that what Erin was suggesting,what Dr. Me was suggesting. If
(23:49):
a student is already feelinganxious and you say, okay,
we're gonna try this, butremember it's not pressure,
it's, it's, we're just tryingto see the time. I don't know,
anytime you put time onsomething, again, it's that
question of like, does mathneed to happen quickly in order
for it to, in order for you toconsider yourself a
(24:11):
mathematician? I always thinkabout that in terms of, okay,
what's gonna take me, it mighttake me a little longer. What
about my student who it takes alittle longer to figure it out
or I, I need a little bit moretime to marinate on it and if
all of a sudden I'm put in thissituation where I'm being asked
to time something, I don'tknow. I, i, I don't disagree
that it could be used as atool. I just don't know that I
(24:35):
would trust myself as a teacherto use it in a way that would
not cause anxiety. A lot timetests
, what did you think about it,Dan?
Dan Meyer (24:44):
Yeah, I mean I, I've been tuned into some
discussions of the researcharound this and it's, it's true
that there's no, like, there'sno studies that I know of that
have been referred to me thatsay time tests cause math,
anxiety, there's some realcorrelational evidence. Um, and
it's also like really hard tostudy the issue because you'd
(25:06):
have to like give one group ofkids no timing and this other
group, this, you have to givethem this thing that is,
there's, you know, anecdotal,but a lot of anecdotal evidence
causes anxiety. Um, that's thatthere's some ethical
considerations about studyingit. Um, I just, yeah, I guess
the question for me hinges onhow much is timing , um,
(25:26):
inherent to the work ofmathematics. Like if I was
trying to get good at havingconversations about my
relationship with my wife, forinstance, that is not an area
where timing is valuable. Likewe, we, like, we talk as long
as it takes, you know, like tohave doing it quickly is not a
virtue. And there's areas like, um, changing the tires on a
(25:48):
car in the pit of a racetrackwhere timing super valuable.
And so you'd want to practicethat with a timer and get
faster and faster. And for me,I just kind of questioned the
premise that like is doingthings fast, a part of math, I
think doing things fluently,like being able to, to work
with sums and products and workwith numbers , um, fluently and
(26:11):
automatically without having to, to drag, you know,
relationships up out of, youknow, to work them out in short
term memory, working memory,again, that feels super
necessary, but is doing it fastnecessary. And that's why I
just, to me, I just say nope.
And the fact that so manypeople, even though anecdotally
are like, this really hurt me.
I'm like, okay, that's enoughfor me. And also the fact that
(26:35):
there's like abundant, abundantways to develop fluency , uh,
to develop automaticity thatdon't involve a timer. It just,
it feels, the timer just feelsto me like the, like the least
creative way to developautomaticity. Like look at any,
pick any game off the shelf,any video game off the shelf,
you know, and like they aredeveloping automaticity in , in
its players in ways that oftenvery often don't involve timing
(26:57):
and are often very successfulat it. So those are some of my
thoughts about it. It was areally provocative comment and
I , I'm not like, this is notlike top 10 most confident
opinions Dan Meyer has, butit's like that's where , that's
where I'm at right now.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (27:11):
Yeah.
And it , I do think it's one ofthose things where I would
trust Dr. Maloney to, afterhaving that conversation with
her, like I would wanna knowmore. I would trust her to try
it in a way that would reflecther beliefs about her students
in a way that would not causemore anxiety. But in general,
like you said, here's somethingthat we know a lot of people
(27:32):
feel anxious about. Let's notjust let's cut it out, right?
Like, why do we need to do itright? Is it, are the potential
gains worth it? And I, I'mlearning how to play the piano
and I catch myself like it'ssupposed to be at a certain
rate, right? It's about , youknow, it's my , and my teacher
keeps saying, okay, just goreally slow. And then when I
try to speed it up, or when Itry to do it at, at pace, I
(27:55):
feel anxious, I feel , and thenI have to remember, I have to
like talk back to myself andsay, whoa, this is, remember
this is one, this is for fun
don't have to be at that speedyet, right? But eventually that
fluidity will come and like yousaid, that fluency, that those
connections will, will build.
(28:15):
Dan remember when Dr. Val Henryjoined us on our past season,
she was talking about fluencyand she was thinking about the
timing , um, that studentswould be able to come to an
answer in three seconds orless, right? But it , her focus
wasn't about like, I'm , she'snot sitting there with a
stopwatch one, two, the , she'sreally just trying to more see
is the answer there. Are theymaking that connection quickly?
(28:39):
And if she was sitting therewith a timer and a stopwatch,
it would probably cause a lotof anxiety. I , I'm really glad
you actually brought that quoteup, Dan, because, you know, we
definitely didn't think we weregonna solve meth anxiety in
five episodes or less, but I, Ithink it's so good to remember
that there are these openquestions that we can keep
marinating on.
Dan Meyer (28:59):
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And indeed may
marinate on them in a futureseason. Who knows? Watch out.
Um, let's see. I, I guess Iwanna just get your thoughts on
one other open question for me,which is , uh, as I alluded to
at the start of the episode,everything we talked about,
every guest was focused at likethe home, the school or below,
(29:20):
like all the action took placein the home or inside the
school. And I don't recall muchdiscussion of what happens like
outside of the school, outsideof the home. Like what, what
the world is doing withmathematics and how that might
affect students and their,their feelings of anxiety. So
before this call, I was justkind of curious, like, I mean,
(29:41):
there's, there's othercountries in the world, which
is wild and they have it , it ,it winds up being the case that
like math is experienceddifferently there. You know,
like , uh, math is not auniform abstract thing which
everyone experiences in thesame way worldwide. So we have
these , um, these exams like,like Pisa , um, administered by
(30:03):
the O E C D and it , it is atest of math knowledge, but it
also asks students a bunch ofquestions about their
experience in math, some ofwhich are around math anxiety.
Like they ask students , um,to, you know, agree or disagree
with this statement. I oftenworry that it'll be difficult
for me in mathematics classes,or I get very tense when I have
to do mathematics, homework andso on. Questions like that. And
(30:26):
it winds up being the case thatthere are countries that
experience where the studentsexperience much less math
anxiety than the United Stateses especially Scandinavian
countries, Denmark, Finland,Norway, Sweden , um, just as
examples. And so I don't know,like do you have any thoughts
about that? Like, about whynationally we have a certain
(30:50):
kind of experience of anxietythat is by no means the most,
we're by no means not the mostmath anxious country. But what
are your thoughts about what,what society is doing with math
that might contribute tostudent's sense of, of anxiety
and mathematics?
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (31:06):
Wow, Dan, I mean, way to like throw
in that bit , you know, I guessI, I don't know. I think I just
go back to the takeaway Ishared about needing to really
shift the conversation aboutmath, you know, shift the
conversation about what math isand the way that we talk about
math. And I, I go back to how Isee examples of math portrayed,
(31:28):
you know, it's the , it's theeasy joke on Saturday Night
Live. It's the, the little digin the joke book or in the, the
board book I was reading to mytoddler where like the mom is
like stumped by a mouth problemand oh, ha ha ha you know, it,
it's this kind of pervasiveconversation. I kind of liken
it to , um, you know, when ,uh, when , uh, Michelle Obama
(31:50):
started bringing upconversations about nutrition
and about movement, and she wastrying to shift the
conversation about how we talkabout moving every day , how we
talk about food, right? Andthere were some folks who were
really politicizing that, andregardless of your politics,
(32:12):
she's trying to shift adiscourse, right? She's trying
to, right, she's trying to havea conversation about what we
eat, how we move our bodies.
And so I kind of feel like it'sat that level. Like how do we,
you know, not necessarily who'sin, in the presidency, but how
do we in these broader spacesshift the conversation about
what math is and what it lookslike and where do we see it
(32:36):
happening in all careers inlike, where do we speak back
when we hear somebody sayinglike, you know, oh, I hated
math too. Or, oh, you'll neverneed math, or, oh, you know,
it, it , I , I don't have theanswer, but I think there is a
certain amount of likeacceptable digs for mathematics
and yeah . That, that we kindof are so used to that we, we
(32:59):
might not even recognize that Ithink basically gives us like
low buzz of anxiety across thenation kind of thing.
Dan Meyer (33:05):
Yeah, I, that makes a lot of sense to me. There's,
there's like a lot of value in,you know, spokespeople for the
value of math. That's all,that's all valuable. Like math
could definitely use better, abetter public relations
manager. I think I, I wonderlike about, for instance,
campaigns, like can we justlike talk, have better messages
about math and , and get peoplewho are very skilled like
(33:27):
Michelle Obama at, at talkingabout them, but then there's
like the, like this socialstuff that happens around the
message that makes the messagejust like not effective. Like
for instance, like what gooddoes it do for me to hear a
message about good nutrition ifI live in a food desert, for
instance, or to hear about thevalue of exercise if I'm
working 16 hours, for instance.
Like, and so I just wonderabout like the good messages
(33:48):
about math, you know, what isabove them that is limiting
their effect? And a theory thatI'll just like toss to you just
to, just to think about islike, those digs happen because
math kind of feels like MichaelScott in the office. Maybe like
it's your boss who you don'trespect, like math is your
(34:10):
boss. Like math determines somuch of like what jobs you are
allowed to have. It determineslike whether you can go to
college, you know, like, oh,you didn't pass the placement
exam. Like enjoy remedial mathas a college freshman, which
you may not get out of, youknow, math is calling all these
shots. And I think that peopledon't respect the boss for some
(34:33):
good reason because they knowthat like they don't need math
to be, you know, like a , a a ,a marketing manager or they
don't need ma like that muchmath to be a nurse, for
instance. Um , and so like Ithink that's, that might be
where the digs come from as akind of catharsis , um, just
like people in in the office,you know, make fun of their
(34:55):
boss. It's cathartic. I don'tknow , uh, just, just riffing
here with you.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (34:59):
No, I appreciate that perspective and
it reminds me of, we had , uh,an amazing guest , uh, from his
organization, public math , uh,Omo Moses and his father Bob
Moses started the algebraproject and we talked about
that a little bit and reallyrecognizing math as a
gatekeeper, right? Math as away of actually preventing the
(35:20):
lack of these, passing thesecertain math courses or being
even open to taking certainmath courses like being told by
counselors, oh no, you can'ttake that course or that course
isn't for you, was ultimatelygonna prevent students from
having access to certain fields, certain career fields
graduating. I mean, it's huge,right? Right . And it's
(35:40):
pervasive and I think there isa much bigger conversation and
, uh, yeah, I, I'm a littledistracted by you bringing up
the office, Dan, cuz you knowhow much I love the office.
Dan Meyer (35:51):
I do. I I knew it was a risk when I brought it
up, but I felt like it was a ,a really useful touchstone and
I appreciate you poweringthrough. Yeah, I, you know, I
don't, I don't, I do not wantto be , uh, to present myself
as disagreeing with Bob Moses,who is , or his son Oma , who's
, they've both done so much formath and for people. I do
think, like, it's interestingto me like there is a
(36:12):
gatekeeper and one approach isto like help people get through
the gate and the other is totear down the gate. And I'm
just, I'm just feeling rightnow, like we've offered, I
think our guests have offeredteachers and parents so many
ideas for how to reduce mathanxiety. But another approach
that I hope we'll all consideris that math anxiety could be
reduced if maths use as agatekeeper were dismantled. If
(36:35):
math were not limiting you froma livelihood you deserve as a
human being, then like we'dfeel less anxious about it. But
right now, math is this thingthat people perceive as
irrelevant, but which alsoholds just bonkers power over
your life and your ability to ,to live with dignity. Tho those
are two different problems wecould try to solve. One is
(36:55):
teachers and one is citizens.
And I , I , I like thinkingabout them both.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (36:59):
I love that. Dan, I really
appreciate you offering thatperspective. It's interesting,
I think I'm not in a gatetearing down mental space, so
it is helpful for me toremember that it is that the
gate is constructed
real thing and it is somethingthat is made. And I think
(37:20):
sometimes I'm aware of that.
And then other times when I'mlike in the midst of a bunch of
bureaucratic stuff that I'mtrying to navigate, I'm like,
well of course this is just theway it is . You know, so it is
a reminder that it is aconstruct and it is possible to
experience math in a moreorganic, juicy way that's just
(37:46):
out in the world, that's just apart of our lives and really
shift that conversation. Sotoday as we're recording this,
I need that reminder, Dan, so Iappreciate it.
Dan Meyer (37:56):
I always appreciate , uh, chopping up big ideas
with you, Bethany. It's beenquite a ride this season,
really. I've loved having likea single theme, a big one to
dig into , uh, deeply. And Ilook , look forward to chopping
up something equally big withyou. Uh, next season
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (38:12):
We have actually got some special
summer episodes in the worksand we're gonna be looking
forward to diving into theworld of AI and math
Dan Meyer (38:20):
So hot right now.
Special summer episode pr (38:21):
This new generation of AI is a step
function. Different venturecapitalists and those in this
space are really identifyingeducation as one of the first
sectors that it willdramatically change.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (38:35):
To make sure you catch all of
that, subscribe to Math TeacherLounge, wherever you get your
podcast. And if you liked thisseason, we'd love for you to
leave us a review. But evenmore than that, please tell
someone about this right summerbreak if you're listening to
this real time , like, as it's,as it's being released. And
(38:55):
what better way to , uh, spreadsome, spread some teacher love
than to say, you know what? Ithelped me kind of think about
my practice maybe in apotentially different way, is
this podcast, give it a listenwhenever you're ready to
listen. If you
Dan Meyer (39:08):
Folks want to get in touch with us, by all means,
hit us up at MTL show onTwitter or math teacher lounge
gmail.com or the math teacherlounge community on Facebook.
We'd love to hear from you whatyou've been taken away from
this season , um, and whatyou're up to right now in the
world of math and teaching.
Bethany Lockhart Johnso (39:25):
Thanks so much for joining us and we
really look forward to divinginto more topics and episodes
with you very soon.
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