S6-E09: Unlocking a systematic approach to math-fluency instruction

Join us for Episode 9, in which Bethany sits down with former classroom teacher Myuriel von Aspen to talk about the importance of a systematic approach to math-fluency instruction. Listen as von Aspen discusses how effective fluency instruction takes students beyond fact memorization into deeper learning through mathematical discourse.

To hear more from Myuriel, check out the following resources:

• Watch Myuriel’s welcoming message at NCSM, 2022. 
• Listen to an excerpt of Myuriel’s message at NCTM, 2021.
• Learn a little about Myuriel’s journey.

Episode Transcript

Myuriel von Aspen (00:00):
It's really interesting to see the
similarities between learning alanguage and math fluency.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:06):
Hello and welcome to Math Teacher
Lounge. I'm your host today,Bethany Lockhart Johnson , and
I am flying solo. No Dan Meyer. So Dan, we miss you, but you
know, you held it down at NCTM, so I'm going to do my best.
Luckily we have an amazingguest. I can't wait to

(00:26):
introduce you to her, but Iwanna check in. Listeners,
we're now on episode nine ofour series on math fluency. And
just like with our whole serieson math anxiety, there's so
much to say and there's so manyquestions we have. I know we
didn't go into this seriesthinking, "Well, at the end of

(00:50):
the season, we'll have it allfigured out." But I am hoping
that you are where we are,which is feeling like we know a
little bit more than westarted; we might have some of
our questions answered. Wemight have questions we didn't
even have at the beginning. Andmostly, we're just enjoying
these conversations and helpingto broaden what we think about

(01:10):
math fluency. And today, we aregoing to talk about math
fluency development. But theteacher-educator-mentor that we
have on today also taught in adual-immersion setting, which
I'm really excited to talkabout how that impacted the
conversations that she hadwithin her teaching community

(01:32):
about the way language andlanguage development played a
part in fluency development.
And I gotta tell you, I wasonce at a wedding with this
person, so I have spent alittle bit of time on the dance
floor — shared a dance floor —with our guest today, and I

gotta tell you (01:50):
fabulous. On the dance floor. Fabulous. In
the classroom, all-aroundfabulous person. So let's
welcome our guest today,Myuriel von Aspen. She's the
coordinator of the multiplesubject teacher credential
program at UC Irvine School ofEducation. For several years,
Myuriel taught first grade andfourth grade in a Spanish

(02:12):
English dual immersion schoolin California. She also spent
years as a coach working withother teachers on math
instruction. Myuriel, welcometo the Lounge. Thank you for
being here today.

Myuriel von Aspen (02:24):
I'm so happy to be here, Bethany. So good to
see you. And I'm trying toremember my dense moves from
the wedding .

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (02:34):
I don't know , I just remember it
was a , I also went to UCI, soMyuriel and I know each other.
We didn't overlap at UCI, butthen I remember I got to visit
your classroom, and so we knewlike the bride, we had the
bride in common. And I don'tknow, I just remember it being
a fun time. So I , I hopefullymy moves, if you don't remember

(02:56):
my moves, that's probably agood thing, right? Because if
you remember them, like, oh , Iremember Bethany, I remember
.

Myuriel von Aspen (03:03):
Yes, I do remember visiting your
classroom too. And it was apleasure to be there, seeing
children joyfully learningmath.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (03:11):
I have to say, that's the best
compliment you can give if youwalked in and you felt like
kiddos were joyful in theirexperience and development with
math. And you've made my day.
Thank you, . Oh ,

Myuriel von Aspen (03:23):
You're welcome.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (03:25):
You know, I have to say, like this
whole season we've been talkingabout fluency, but we've been
talking with folks who havedifferent relationships with
fluency instruction, right? Wetalked to Dr. Val Henry , who
we both know and have learnedso much from, and we've talked
to so many people, but there'ssomething special, extra

(03:46):
special about talking to ateacher who used these ideas
and for whom the journey ofmath fluency was one that they,
they just got to see thefluency come to life in their
classroom. And I'm so excitedto hear about your journey, but
I wanna say before we dive intothat, we've been asking all of

(04:09):
those guests the question, isthere an area of your life
beyond mathematics where you'recurrently developing fluency?

Myuriel von Aspen (04:18):
I am. Ooh , I am actually developing
fluency in another language. Soreally ,

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (04:25):
Wait, but you're already, you're
gonna be trilingual ,

Myuriel von Aspen (04:30):
Maybe , uh, two and a half or maybe three
between the two other that Ihave half. But , uh, for the
past six months, I have beenlearning Italian because our
daughter is going to Italy tostudy abroad for one semester.
Oh, wow. And so my husband andI are going to go visit
midpoint because we cannot livewithout her for six months,

(04:53):
. And so , um, I'vebeen using Duolingo and I'm
proud to say that I have a 192day streak.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (05:03):
Hey.

Myuriel von Aspen (05:04):
Yes, yes, yes.

Bethany Lockhart Johnso (05:05):
That's impressive. And I think, like I
would be extra motivated tokeep practicing and signing on
if I knew that I was gonnaactively be using this in
Italy. So that's reallyexciting.

Myuriel von Aspen (05:17):
I know. You know what, one of the things
that it's really interesting tome is to see the similarities
between learning a language andmath fluency. Mm . So as I'm,
I'm going through this process,I'm noticing that what has
helped me learn is that Ipractice it on a regular basis.
I also like doing it in littlechunks. Whenever I spend more

(05:38):
than 20 minutes on the app, Ijust start getting antsy and I
need to move on to somethingelse. And it also, I realized
that it helps me to figure outthe patterns. And one of the
things that I notice sometimeswhen I'm doing Duolingo is that
it's a little bit random. And Iactually had to borrow a book

(06:01):
from someone so that I couldjust kind of go to the
conjugations and figure outwhat the patterns are. So the
patterns have really helped melearn more than sometimes the
way I feel about the randomnessin which the sentences are
provided on the app. And Ithink thinking about my
students learning their mathfacts, it's a lot of that is

(06:24):
true as well. One more thing Ineed to say, because it's, I
think it's important too. I usewhat I know to figure out
things that I still don't know.
So for example, I use mySpanish and Italian, you know,
with the Latin roots, there'sso many similarities, but I've
also noticed that if it's notsimilar to Spanish, it's

(06:45):
similar to French, which I alsoknow some because I took it in
high school and in college. Andso knowing the other languages
helps me figure out the newlanguage that I'm learning,
which is similar to studentslearning their facts by using
other facts as well.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (07:01):
Okay.
That's huge what you just said.
And that is, you know, right?
Research tells us frequentpractice. It tells us small
meaningful chunks, right? Usingstrategy and using things that,
you know, using facts, youknow, to help you to make sense
of and learn new facts. That issuch a perfect connection. All

(07:25):
those pieces together are whatis going to help build that
fluency. And that's huge.
That's so huge. And so, youknow, you, you've seen that,
you've seen that work with yourstudents. Can you tell us,
like, set the scene for usabout like, if I was to walk
into your classroom, maybe whenyou first started versus after

(07:46):
you'd been using thesestrategies and skills with your
students to help build theirfluency. What , what was kinda
the story?

Myuriel von Aspen (07:53):
So I have to start by thanking Dr. Valerie
Henry, whom you had in yourprogram. Um, she was my
professor and I took one of hercourses where she did introduce
me to her research and also tothe methods that she had for
students to learn their mathfact fluency. So in her case,

(08:13):
she has a program called FactsWise . And so I became aware of
that and I started learning andthinking about how I could use
that in my classroom. So in myclass, I, I really did
practice. I remember her sayingthat you need to, again, just
like you mentioned, you need todo this regularly, you need to
do it in small chunks. You needto provide opportunities for

(08:37):
students to use tools tomanipulate, to use visual
representations, to havediscussions, and to have fun.
That was very important too.
And so I started following thatmethod of teaching. And the
systematic part of it was soimportant too , the way that

(08:59):
students learn theirmultiplication by tens first
and then the fives, becausethey can make sense of that.
And then going on to learningtheir twos and their fours
because they can double. Andthen their eights , because
they could double their eights. Going through that process, I
realized that my studentscoming into fourth grade, even
though the standard of fluencyfor multiplication and division

(09:21):
lives in third grade, theywould come into my class at the
beginning of the year, and atbest they would know their
fives because they were skipcounting, which is not
considered fluent. They mightknow some of their twos just
because, you know, they knowhow to add the numbers twice
the tens . I found that many ofthem just quote unquote added a

(09:44):
zero at the end without reallyunderstanding why the

Bethany Lockhart Johns (09:47):
Meaning of what they was happening.
Okay.

Myuriel von Aspen (09:50):
Yes. So even though I , I was a fourth grade
teacher and I knew that thatstandard lived in third grade,
I felt that it was myresponsibility, because fluency
is such a foundationalknowledge and skill for them to
continue doing higher math, Ifelt that I was responsible for
them learning and having thatnot only, and I don't mean

(10:13):
learning by just memorizingtheir facts, but really
understanding and making sense,and having discussions, sharing
their thinking, using tools,all those things that really
supported their learning. Thatwas my responsibility. And I,
I, I just felt like I couldn'toutsource that to families. I
couldn't outsource that to evena computer program because that
didn't provide all of thesethings that I have mentioned so

(10:36):
far for them, especially forthe community of learners that
I had, which every singlestudent was a language learner.
Half of my students had Spanishas their first language, and
the other half had English astheir first language. So they
were all developing eitherEnglish or Spanish, or both
when it came to academiclanguage. Every student is a

(10:56):
learner of language. Right.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (10:58):
Okay.
I wanna pause you there for asecond because I really, I
would love for you to say moreabout that, because I think so
often we say a language learnerand someone would only assume
that you're talking about yourstudent for whom you know,
Spanish was their firstlanguage, or, you know,
Japanese was their firstlanguage, or, you know, I know

(11:18):
especially we have a lot ofdual immersion schools in
California, but going into yourclassroom as the teacher,
seeing every single student asa language learner and knowing
that the supports you are goingto create and the scaffolding
and the visuals or whatever itis you're doing for your
language learners, or actuallyfor everyone, because they're

(11:39):
all language learners. I wouldlove to hear a little bit more
about that, because I don'tfeel like we hear that point of
view often enough.

Myuriel von Aspen (11:46):
Yes. I think, you know, when you have
that label of English languagelearner, first of all, you, I
I, I'm not into labels verymuch. I think they're all seen
with this deficit lens, right?
So beginning with that, but Ithink it also takes away from
the other students that are notlabeled that way. Because when
it comes to schooling, there'sso much we need to learn. We

(12:07):
are all academic languagelearners, right? Our students
don't walk into our classroomknowing what the distributor
property is, or I'm going todecompose numbers, right? So
those opportunities fordiscussion sense, making ,
using language to explain yourthinking needs to be provided
for every single student.

Bethany Lockhart Johnso (12:27):
That's huge. So you saw your students
have maybe some of their facts,but they weren't fluent. And,
and I love the way that yousaid, you know, I , I wasn't
then saying, okay, wellparents, this means you have to
handle this. Or you mentionedsomething about computer
programs and you knew, okay,well no, no, no, we're, we're

(12:50):
gonna break it down. We'regoing to learn these facts in a
strategic way. And you ownedit. You said, this is, this is
gonna happen here in ourclassroom. And I find that so
powerful because our studentsare gonna come to us with
varying backgrounds. So bymaking sure that your students

(13:10):
had that strong foundation,what did you see happening?
Like how did it evolve over theyear?

Myuriel von Aspen (13:18):
It was such a pleasure to see the
confidence that my studentsdisplayed once they had, you
know, like maybe they knewtheir tens and their fives and
their twos. See how they coulduse even just those facts to
figure out everything else.
Even if they didn't have thatefficiency aspect of it, yet

(13:40):
they were having thatflexibility not to say, oh, I
don't know, I don't know what,you know, nine times four is,
they could think in myclassroom, you could hear my
students say nine times four is36 because 10 groups of four is
40, and you take one group offour away.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (14:01):
Wow.

Myuriel von Aspen (14:01):
It was amazing. Like, you think of
sevens being this, you know,the difficult facts, right?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (14:06):
Uhhuh sevens and eights. Oh, they're
come .

Myuriel von Aspen (14:09):
Yes. They could use their groups of fives
plus their groups of two tofigure out their sevens. Wow.
And with enough practice, theybecame fluent either because by
practicing in different waysthrough games or just
communicating, they just knewthem at some point. And I, I

(14:29):
think for me, it's, it's soimportant for teachers to know
that for students to acquirethis language, they need to use
language. I guess I'm alwayssurprised to hear sometimes
I've heard sometimes that ifstudents that are designated
language learners use programsor use ways to learn their

(14:51):
facts without any language,right? They don't have that
language demand, that then it'sbetter for them because they
don't need to worry about thelanguage part, which we know
that to learn language, we needto use language, right? So we
need to provide thoseopportunities for our students
to have those discussions, notonly to develop the language,
but also because we're socialhuman beings, right? .

(15:14):
And that's the way that welearn and that's the way that
we feel like if I don't knowsomething, my friend can help
me out or I can help my friendout. So there's that social
aspect of it as well. But itwas to me, such a joy to see
that confidence built . Dr.
Henry actually came once to myclass to videotape some of my

(15:36):
lessons. Um, and I was sharingwith her that I had one student
that would've been consideredsomeone who is challenged by
math because they don't knowtheir math facts. So at the
beginning, she didn't know any.
And towards the end of theyear, I sat down with her and I
said, so I noticed that youknow, your facts. Like, it is

(15:57):
amazing. When you came into theclassroom, you didn't know
them, and now you know them .
What, what did you do? Like,what happened? What, how come
you know them now? And she kindof made this sound like, duh,
you taught me . And I, Ilike, that was the joy. Yeah .
That was one of the joys. Andone of the things that I'll

(16:18):
never forget, because yes, itis like that is a
responsibility. And for somechildren, their parents might
be working two jobs, threejobs, and they're not there to
help them memorize, which isactually not the right thing.
We , we don't want our childrento just memorize. Right? And so
when we talk about work ofequity, teaching fluency in the

(16:39):
classroom is the work ofequity. Yeah. And taking away
those opportunities from ourstudents, we're taking away the
chance for them to learn highermaths later on, because we are
what they have to learn thosefoundational skills.

Bethany Lockhart Johnso (16:55):
That's so incredibly powerful. And,
you know, hearing that story ofthat student who said, well,
you taught me, you know, it,I'm picturing how it could have
gone where she maybe decidedthat math just wasn't for her.
Because for if she'd gone intofourth grade and felt like she
had somehow failed or gone intofifth grade, she didn't know

(17:16):
her math facts and justdecided, well, I I'm not good
at math, or I'm not a mathperson. Whatever story might
have been created. Right? Shemay not have pointed and said,
if only I knew my math facts,then I'd be stronger at math.
Mm-Hmm . . But byempowering your students to own
these facts and be able to seethemselves as mathematicians

(17:40):
because they're using strategy,because they're thinking
through problems, you know, I ,I just find that so incredibly
powerful. And I want to go backfor a second to something you
said about language learners.
You were talking about theimportance of language and
using language as studentsbuild their fact fluency. And

(18:07):
I, I would love for you to talka little bit more about that
because it sounds to me like ifI walk in your classroom, I'm
hearing those conversations,that sense making happening
together. And that isn'tsomething necessarily that
folks are going to equate withfluency development. So I would
love for you to talk a littlebit more about that. That that

(18:29):
feels so powerful to me.

Myuriel von Aspen (18:32):
Yes. So , um, exactly right. When you
come into, when , if you hadcome into my classroom, you
would've hear a lot of sensemaking and explaining their
thinking. How did they knowthat fact? So we know that
there are different components,right, that make up math
fluency and accuracy is one ofthem, right? So when students

(18:53):
kind of work into beingaccurate at their facts, they
need to be able to use tools tokind of prove to themselves,
yes, five times seven is 35.
And so I think at the beginningof learning, let's say the
fives or any, any fact , youwould've seen in my classroom,
my students using tools likenumber racks or Unix cubes,

(19:18):
because that would provide themthe opportunity to ensure that
the fact that they're workingon is what it is because
they're actually seeing andvisualizing it. So that's kind
of like the first step. Andthen moving away from that,
they could start usingrepresentations like number
lines or area models and movingthem away from the physical.

(19:39):
But now that they have likekind of the concept, and they
have proven to themselves thatthat's the, you know, that is
the number we could actuallychart together. And they could
actually check on the work thatthey're doing by looking at the
chart as well, but they couldstart using representations.
But with all of that is thisexplanation. I know that, you

(20:02):
know, seven times five is 35because I already know my
fives, and I know that fivegroups of five is 25, and I
already know my twos, and Iknow that two groups of five is
10. So if I put 'em together,it's 35. And they're all doing
that. And you can see howthey're not only like that,
that's providing them theopportunity for the language

(20:23):
explaining to someone else,justifying their thinking, but
the more they, they make senseof this fact that they don't
know, the more just theyinternalize it right to the
point e . Eventually whenthey're playing games and
they're doing this a little bitfaster, they are able to say
seven times five is 35 . Sotools, representations,

(20:45):
explanations and games for fun.
Once they're getting more tothat, you know, the efficiency
kind of component of fluency.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (20:54):
So a teacher might say, well, if my
students have a time test, youknow, in front of them, even if
I take off the timing aspect ofit, they're still gonna be
practicing. And any studentcould do that because it
doesn't require that language,right? Because they're
removing, they're saying thenumbers, they don't need

(21:15):
language for that. But what I'mhearing is like, well, sure,
but you're missing the power ofwhat language can bring to it.
Like, we don't want to separatethe numbers from that language.
Like no, they, there , there'sa rich, rich connection that's
building a stronger foundationis what it feels like I'm
hearing. Yes,

Myuriel von Aspen (21:37):
Absolutely.
Going back to that time test orto those practices where there
is no language or , orjustification. When I did work
with, in-service teachers, Ihad the opportunity to assess
hundreds of students on theirmath facts. And I walked into
classrooms where you could say,oh, all these students are

(21:58):
fluent with their facts.
Because they could say themwithin half a second and they
were so confident and secure.
But a student could, forexample, know, I don't know ,
12 times eight, let's say,because they learned them up to
12. Let's just say if I askedthe student what 13 times eight

(22:22):
was, that student did not knowand would say, I haven't
learned those, I don't knowthem. I actually had one
student get upset at me andsay, why are you asking me
that? We don't learn 13. Oh ,

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (22:33):
We don't. Yes. So

Myuriel von Aspen (22:36):
We are robbing that opportunity. We're
taking away that opportunitynot just from our students that
we think are struggling withour math facts, but also from
students that go home andmemorize their facts without
the conceptual understanding ofequal groups. I can decompose,
I can use the distributedproperty. They don't know what

(22:58):
they don't know because theydon't understand the
relationships of numbers. Theyjust memorize the facts

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (23:04):
And what's going to give that
student the most solidfoundation for further math
work. Right? Like, you know,day on , we, he, he is not vin
shy about sharing that. He wasnot too excited about like
fluency. Like, well, no, let'sget to the exciting stuff, but
this is what I think is so richand exciting, right? Like that

(23:26):
you, you're not spendingforever and ever on learning
math facts once you have 'em .
But it's not just knowing theanswer, it's then knowing those
strategies that are gonna allowyou to deep dive into all that
juicy news stuff that he'steaching, right? Yes. So, oh,
that's, yes . What a greatexample. That's really huge.

Myuriel von Aspen (23:46):
It also gets to this aspect of math is not
about answer getting Mm . It'snot about I get it right or I
don't, but can I really, do Ideeply understand and can I
justify and explain? And, youknow, all those math practices
that we know is what reallyshows that a student knows math

(24:06):
deeply.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (24:07):
You know, something else that I, I
feel like I'm getting such a, apicture of the culture and of
community that you werecreating in your classroom. And
even you talking about tools, Ifeel like so often I didn't see
students using tools even infirst grade, second grade, but
especially in fourth grade,it's too rare to see students

(24:30):
using tools. Mm-Hmm .
. And I, I wonderif you could just briefly share
about that because there's awhole lot of pushback. I, I've
gotten when , when I suggestmaking tools readily accessible
for students to use and chooseRight. To use and choose what's
gonna help them make sense. Sofor folks who are feeling maybe

(24:52):
nervous about breaking outtools for their older students,
what, how did you approach itas a teacher or kind of how did
you overcome maybe those fearsof oh, they're just gonna play
with it, or Oh, you know, thenthey're going to always need
them or whatever it is. The,the stories we make up right
about tool use.

Myuriel von Aspen (25:13):
It is interesting, this idea of
tools, first of all, I findthat interesting that many
students get the idea that onlythe students that don't know
are the ones who get the tools,right? So you're already
setting up that perception thatyou only go get the tools if
you're not good at math, right?

(25:34):
Or this idea of if they use thetools, they're gonna become
dependent on them, right? Likethey're always going to be
using the cubes or the, thenumber rack. I have to say that
my experience was if usingtools as an expectation of
being a mathematician, everyoneis expected to use tools as

(25:57):
we're exploring the facts, thenit, it doesn't become like, oh,
it's only those kids that aregoing to get tools. We are
expected to use tools. And, andI have to say just the use of
tools, first of all, it'simportant for everyone, but for
someone who is developing theirlanguage skills in another
language, it is really usefulbecause you have a visual, it

(26:21):
kind of puts you in a positionof describing what you're
seeing rather than just nothave anything to anchor your
communication on. You have aphysical object to describe and
to, you know, take the time tothink about why a fact is what
it is you are seeing. You're ,you're decomposing. Then a

(26:43):
student might know, like, likeI said before, that four groups
of four is 16 and, and maybeadding , didn't know four
groups of five, but now I cansee that if I add one more
group, then it makes it 20. Soit really supports the
language. But then also Iwanted to think about this idea
that they will become dependenton it. And what I've seen

(27:03):
sometimes is that when there'sno systematic approach to
learning facts, the math facts,then using the tools is not
strategic. For example, if youare just find out what four
times seven is and , uh, eighttimes five, of course a child
is just going to be using allthese cubes and counting versus

(27:27):
using the tool to just figureout something that you can
relate it to and see thepatterns. I don't know if I'm
making sense. If there's asystem, you're relating
everything to what you know,and you're using the tools
without having to count. But ifthere's no system and there's
this randomness, then studentsare gonna find themselves

(27:48):
counting everything.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (27:50):
I totally think that makes sense.
And you said the word anchor. Ithink that's so key, right? The
tools are serving as an anchorfor the student's language
development, but also for theirconceptual understanding. And
you're going in it, and you asa teacher have thought about
how this representation or thisconcrete representation of this

(28:14):
number will really help tobuild the connections.

Myuriel von Aspen (28:19):
For example, if , if students are, let's say
they're using tools to figureout six times eight, at this
point when they're learning,they're six, they already know
they're five. So they mightmodel, you know, six times
eight. But when they're seeingthat five times eight, they're
not going to count every singlefive times eight. They're going

(28:40):
to know, oh, five times eight,I already know that five groups
of eight is 40, and now I justneed one more group of eight.
And so that's 48. So six timeseight is 48. And by seeing
those relationships, itsupports them in not having to
count and become dependent onevery time they get a random
fact having to count to try tofigure out what the fact is.

(29:03):
And I think what happens isexactly that, that students are
learning their facts in a kindof random way without seeing
the relationship betweennumbers. And so they do have to
count. And I think that's whatteachers sometimes refer to
when they say that studentsbecome dependent on the tools.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (29:23):
That makes a lot of sense. I love
it. You're , you're normalizingnorming tool use mathematicians
use tools, and we want ourstudents to be able to, to show
and represent their thinking aswell as use tools to make
sense. And then you're also,you're not just saying, here's
some cubes. You're, you're,you're being systematic as the
teacher to show the power ofusing these tools and using

(29:47):
facts you already know. Yes,

Myuriel von Aspen (29:49):
Exactly.
Right.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (29:50):
That speaks to you and the strategy
and the, the way that you'rebeing so intentional about
teaching facts. I also thinkyou've held, I love, I love
getting to hear these, thesestories and like kind of the
journey in your classroom. AndI also wanna make sure we get
to share that you've also hadthese other roles, right? Of

(30:11):
being a mentor teacher ofpre-service teachers as well as
coaching teachers with mathinstruction. And sometimes I
feel like teaching, like inyour own classroom can feel a
little bit like a silo and youcan feel kind of isolated. So
you getting to have thisoutside perspective of, of
being able to coach and beingable to see all these

(30:32):
pre-service teachers throughyour role currently at UCI, I
was wondering if you couldshare a little bit about either
or both, you know, how theseroles have kind of like shaped
the way you think that fluencyinstruction should look like in
classrooms or, or what do our ,our pre-service teachers need
to be, need to know so thatthey're ready to teach fluency

(30:54):
and make it a part of their,their priorities in math?

Myuriel von Aspen (30:59):
Yes. If I were queen of the world, Ooh ,

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (31:02):
Yes, please,

Myuriel von Aspen (31:03):
I would have one course in the
credential program that wouldjust focus on fluency , uh, for
our multiple subject teachers.
Oh . But given that there'sthis time constraint, our
pre-service teachers only getto hear a little part, i I have
to say about how to teachfluency. So what I've done as a

(31:27):
coordinator is I get togetherwith Be Henry, and we set up
some workshops so that ourpre-service teachers have more
of an opportunity to learnabout the systematic approach
before they leave our program.
What I find is that our teachercandidates who are placements,

(31:48):
where they're experiencingfluency work in the ways that
we've been talking about today,are much better prepared to go
to their classrooms andteaching these ways than if
they're placed in a classroomwhere teaching fluency is more
of a traditional kind of way

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (32:08):
That makes a lot of sense. So I'm
thinking about our listenerswho, you know, might be heading
to the classroom as they'relistening. Right. And overall,
I, I feel like we've talked aabout so many tips and ideas,
which they're not simplethings, right? It's like a

(32:30):
fundamental shift in the way wethink about fluency
instruction, right? So tipsisn't even the right word. It's
like Mm-Hmm , No,we need to rethink about how we
are teaching fluency in ourclassrooms. So I just want, I'm
just wondering, what would youhope that folks would get out
of our time together as they'remaybe listening on their drive

(32:50):
to school

Myuriel von Aspen (32:51):
?
Yes. Um, and I, I think you'reexactly right, Bethany, when
you say it's not an easy thing,it isn't, it's , um, very
complex and it's a, it's acommitment. It definitely is a
commitment with taking those 15minutes or 10 minutes a day,
which we know that teacherslack time right? Throughout the

(33:11):
day. So making that commitment,and I think it starts with that
belief of the power, the powerthat they're providing their
students, by supporting themwith this foundational skills.
Um, it's huge. It's, it's huge.
Not only in what they learn andwhat they're able to do, but

(33:33):
also in the beliefs aboutthemselves as mathematicians.
And so if you do commit todoing this work, you know,
start, start small, start with10 minutes a day, just first of
all, try to find an approachthat is systematic, just like
in reading, right? We need asystematic approach. The same
thing happens in math. Youknow, think about the patterns

(33:56):
that students need to learn.
Like, just like I mentioned,you know, for me it was like
the tens, the fives, the twos,fours, eights, three, six nines
. But even with just the tens,the twos and the fives,
students can figure outanything else, right? Um , make
sure you provide thoseopportunities for your students
to use tools to userepresentations. So slow it

(34:19):
down a little bit. You know,the , that standard takes a
whole year for students tolearn. There is time. Don't
think that it's gonna happenright away. Do it regularly.
And another thing is make itfun. You know, play games , uh,
but don't let games be the onlything that you do, because
students need to be able tocome together to have those

(34:40):
discussions to, you know, atthe end, just kind of think
about what was something newthat they learned? What fact
did they figure out bysomething else that they knew?
And ask for support, ask forsupport, reach out to people
that have been doing this work,because it's hard to do it
alone. So if you find a buddyat school, someone, a colleague
that can work together withyou, and you hold each other

(35:02):
accountable and you learntogether, that's probably the
best way to go about doing thiswork.

Bethany Lockhart Johns (35:08):
That's, that's such great advice. And
just like, we're not expectingour students to take everything
on , all on at once, you know,it's Mm-Hmm , ,
hopefully teachers are gettingcurious about how they could be
more systematic and strategicwith their fluency work. And I
feel like your perspective isso phenomenal, and I will not

(35:30):
forget that , thatstory of the student who's
like, well, you taught us. Andthat the pride and the
ownership, I, she must havefelt, you know, after having
done the work, but it was, youknow, you, you set her up for
success. And I really, reallyappreciate you sharing your
stories with us and yourperspective. And could we, you

(35:51):
know what I was thinking, maybewe take the dance floor to
Italy, like while you're inItaly, , she's like, I
just wanna keep hanging outwith you. This is, this is
great. This is great, .

Myuriel von Aspen (36:03):
We do, we do need to do that. ,

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (36:06):
Thank you so, so much for your time.
Thank you for joining us in thelounge, and I really appreciate
your perspective and , uh, yoursharing of, of the work that
you have done. And I am excitedfor those pre-service teachers
that get to work with you. Likethat's, that's how lucky they

(36:26):
are. So thank you. Thank youagain.

Myuriel von Aspen (36:27):
Thank you so much Bethany, and thank you for
this opportunity for sharingabout this very important work.

Bethany Lockhart Johnso (36:34):
Thanks so much for joining us in the
lounge and tuning into thisconversation with Myuriel Van
Aspen, coordinator of themultiple subject teacher
credential program at theUniversity of California Irvine
School of Education. Check outthe show notes for links to
more about Myuriel's work. Youknow, we have had so many great
conversations about fluencythis season. If you miss any of

(36:57):
the episodes, you can find themright on our podcast feed. And
next time on the show, Dan willbe back. We missed you, Dan.
Dan will be back, and we'll bespeaking to another one of our
favorite math educators, fawnNen . She actually joined us
season two, episode three, wayback in Season two. Here's a

(37:19):
little preview of Fawns. Returnto the Lounge.

Speaker 3 (37:22):
People would just abruptly say to me, how does my
student be able to engage inthis problem if they don't know
their facts? And I, I think outof all the things that I hear,
that one breaks my heart. Itreally breaks my heart because
somehow we're equatingcomputational and memorization
with be able to think, be ableto enjoy mathematics. Make

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (37:43):
Sure you don't miss our episode with
Fawn by subscribing to MathTeacher Lounge on all the
podcast platforms. You canthink of bonus points. Well, I
, I mean, who's giving thepoints? I don't know . High
virtual, high five . If youleave a rating or review, it's
the best way for others to findout about the podcast because
hopefully if you got value outof it, your folks in your

(38:05):
community will too. You canfind more information on all
the Amplify shows at ourpodcast hub. Go to
amplify.com/hub. Thanks againfor listening.