MC Fireside Chats - April 2nd, 2025

In the recent episode of MC Fireside Chats, Brian Searl warmly welcomed everyone to another episode, highlighting the theme of data insights and analysis, a core focus for their 2025 discussions. With a touch of humor, he acknowledged the self-explanatory nature of the show’s title, playfully teasing Scott Bahr about the redundancy. He then introduced the returning guest, Simon Neal from Camp Map, and special guests Emily Simmons, President of CONY, and Michael Moore, who wears numerous hats, including those at TACO and AGS, and is now also the President of CAMP. Before diving into the data, a lighthearted exchange ensued about Michael’s sports memorabilia, specifically a jersey, and whether it needed updating given the player’s current status, a conversation that briefly touched on the topic of inflation and its impact on investments. Michael Moore then provided a comprehensive introduction to his various roles, starting with the Texas Association of Campground Owners, affectionately known as TACO, the largest state campground association in the country, boasting nearly 450 member campgrounds. He outlined the association’s diverse range of activities, including lobbying, legislative work, legal support, marketing, and the provision of numerous discount and savings programs. Shifting gears, he spoke about AGS, a company that markets and produces guest guides for campgrounds across almost all 50 states, detailing their work in printing, collateral, and digital marketing. Finally, he touched on his recent election as President of CAMP, an organization that facilitates information sharing and collaboration among state and regional campground associations. Emily Simmons followed, introducing herself as the President of CONY, celebrating her upcoming two-year anniversary in the role. She echoed Michael’s description of association benefits, emphasizing advocacy, education, and cost savings programs, and highlighted the recent successful launch of their virtual conference, “Fire Up Forum,” which was designed to address member feedback and provide accessible, ongoing educational resources. She also noted their membership numbers, currently approaching 200, and their strategic focus on attracting Canadian visitors, given their proximity to the border. The conversation then transitioned to a detailed discussion of data trends, with Simon Neal sharing a presentation from PIN Camp, a major European marketplace for outdoor hospitality. He emphasized the increasing prevalence of online bookings across all age groups, even among those over 70, highlighting the importance of digital accessibility for campgrounds. He then delved into booking behavior, comparing trends from the previous year to the current one, revealing a growing price sensitivity among consumers, with a noticeable shift towards cheaper destinations and shorter stays. This led to a broader discussion about the impact of rising prices on consumer decisions, with contributions from Scott Bahr, Michael Moore, and Emily Simmons, who all shared insights into how these trends were playing out in the US and Canada. Scott Bahr provided additional context, noting that while online booking preferences were generally higher in the US, the trend of older age groups embracing online bookings was consistent across both regions. He also discussed the contrasting data on RV registrations, which were declining in the US but growing in Germany, as highlighted by Simon Neal. The speakers then explored the implications of these trends for campground operators, discussing the need to adapt pricing strategies, enhance value propositions, and focus on customer loyalty. They also touched on the broader economic and political uncertainties influencing consumer behavior, emphasizing the importance of scenario planning and data-driven decision-making. The conversation then shifted to a discussion of association activities, with Emily Simmons detailing CONY’s successful virtual conference, “Fire...

Episode Transcript

Brian Searl (00:00):
Welcome everybody to another episode of MC Fireside Chats.

(00:01):
My name's Brian Searl with Insider Perks.
Super excited to be back here withyou for another data Insights analysis
episode, part of our new themes in 2025.
We're gonna be talking about allkinds of things, data and insights.
I guess that really didn't needan explanation, did it, Scott?
It wasn't like a synergy reporteetype word that needed to find no,

Scott Bahr (00:18):
Don't say that.

Brian Searl (00:19):
I don't know.
I guess I, I serve no purpose herenow that the shows are labeled.
I don't even need to introduce myselfor what we're gonna talk about, but
super excited to be here with witha couple of our recurring guests.
We're missing a couple people.
I think they're at the Californiashow or at other commitments.
But we have, Simon Nealhere from Camp Map.
He's gonna go over some interestingdata in a second that he shared with us
about the European market that I thinkScott will agree, mirrors closely some

(00:43):
of the behavior we've seen in UnitedStates and Canadian sentiment as well,
like their behaviors in like lodgingand accommodations and stuff like that.
Then we got two special guests.
We have Emily from CONY,who I just saw yesterday.
Emily

Emily Simmons (00:55):
That's right.

Brian Searl (00:56):
Isn't once a week enough for you?
How many times do you wanna see me?
So Emily's here, she's gonnatalk about CONY a little bit.
And then Michael Moore's here from,is it Michael Moore from TACO?
Is it Michael Moore from AGS?
Is it Michael Moore from,

Michael Moore (01:08):
it's all of the above chair

Brian Searl (01:10):
of Aren't you chair of CAMP now too or something?

Michael Moore (01:12):
I am president of CAMP.
Yeah.
And then TACO and AGS and I canprobably find a couple more, but I
don't know if you want to hear 'em.

Brian Searl (01:20):
Do you feel like, the only question I have for you immediately
is, do you feel like you should updateyour jersey behind you on the wall
given the status of that player now?
Like you have somebody elseyou can root for right now?
That's good.

Michael Moore (01:34):
Huh?

Brian Searl (01:35):
You could put Victor's jersey up there, right?

Michael Moore (01:37):
I could, but it probably cost 10 times as much.
So I'll wait.
I'll wait to buy on the dipand then I'll replace it.

Brian Searl (01:43):
All 'cause then it inflates over time.
We know we've all learned aboutinflation enough over the last year.
We know that, so

Michael Moore (01:48):
I know that's my new investment strategy is just memorabilia.
'cause it'll never go down, ever.

Brian Searl (01:53):
So that's true.
That's a good point.
Okay, so let's let's briefly,Michael just introduce you and
TACO, Emily introduce you and CONY.
And then we will, I wanna dive intothis European data and start the show.
We're not gonna spend the whole show onthat data, but 'cause I want to definitely
get to questions about CONY and TACO andall the things you're doing, Michael.
But briefly introduce yourself.
Go ahead.

Michael Moore (02:12):
Sure.
Yeah and thanks forhaving us on again, Brian.
I know for me, like you said.
Probably the most thing that a lot ofpeople know me for is with the Texas
Association of Campground Owners, or aswe affectionately refer to it as TACO.
We are the largest state campgroundassociation in the country.
We've got I think it's closeto 450 member campgrounds now.

(02:35):
And we do lobbying work, legislativework legal work for member campgrounds.
We do marketing, we do we have severaldiscount and savings programs now
more than we ever have for members.
Yeah, so we, it's a prettydiverse array of benefits.
I like to think as far as what TACOdoes, and then yeah, on the AGS side, we,

(02:56):
primarily market and produce guest guidesfor campgrounds all over the country.
All 50 states?
Not Hawaii not yetanyway, but one day maybe.
We'll get there.

Brian Searl (03:05):
We just talked about The Bahamas, man.
Like, why are you in Hawaii?

Michael Moore (03:09):
No, I'm trying to get to Hawaii but it's,

Brian Searl (03:10):
But wouldn't you raise your hand and be like, yes, I will
go onsite and design your map.

Michael Moore (03:14):
Oh, believe me, and my sales reps too.
I have a list a mile long offolks that would love to go
there.

Brian Searl (03:19):
You're at the top you're the Hawaii guy.

Michael Moore (03:21):
Right.

Brian Searl (03:22):
Yeah.

Michael Moore (03:22):
So yeah, we market and produce, close to a thousand maps for
campgrounds around the country, and thenalong with other printing and collateral
and digital marketing for those folks.
And then yeah, on a smaller degree.
I've, I was recently elected presidentof CAMP of which Emily is a member.
We are an organization of thedifferent state campground association,

(03:44):
state and regional, I should say.
And we get together and share informationand share notes and really just
try to help each other grow our ownassociations by learning from each other.
I think that's the kind of Reader'sDigest version of all three of those.

Brian Searl (03:57):
Awesome.
We'll dive into all threeof those a little bit later.
'cause I want our audienceto understand them.
For now, my only question for you as Itossed to Emily is obviously in New York.
Do you feel like Emily can getto 450 campgrounds or does she
need a bigger state, like youhave, is an unfair advantage or,

Michael Moore (04:13):
And I, this is something I know that we have
talked about at camp several times.
So absolutely every state is, so forTexas, for example because of, I would
say the relative lacks of regulation, atleast compared to other states, including
Emily's it's still a lot easier to buildand expand and buy here as opposed to

(04:33):
other states where you're either, you'relocked in by zoning and other laws that
make it difficult or just geography, ifyou're landlocked especially if you're a
smaller geographic state, there's not alot of room to go, even if you wanted to.
It's, no two states are alike, Iguess would be my answer to that.
So

Brian Searl (04:51):
I think the only way to find out, like we should have an executive
of the year award, but the only wayto find out who deserves that from the
whole camp organization would be torotate executive directors every three
months and see if you can each mirrorthe success of each other given the
different size of states and landlockedand all the things you just mentioned.

Michael Moore (05:10):
Yeah I'll add that to the agenda for our June meeting.
So

Brian Searl (05:14):
Scott, I think he's being sarcastic with
me, could you stop me please.
Okay.
Thank you Michael.
Emily, please introduce yourself.

Emily Simmons (05:21):
Yes.
Hi.
Thank you so much for theinvitation to be here.
Emily Simmons.
I'm just coming up on my two yearanniversary as the President of CONY.
So this has been a reallyexciting time for us.
I don't wear quite as many hats asMichael does, but our association
does offer a very similar structureof benefits for our members.

(05:41):
Advocacy education asboth you, Brian and Scott.
Part of yesterday, we just launchedour very first virtual conference
which by all accounts that we'rehearing today was a success.
So that was something differentbased on feedback that we
were able to launch yesterday.
So the cost savings programs are a bigpiece of what we offer to our members

(06:02):
and really just keeping them up to datewith data like Scott and Simon provide
and how we can help them move forward.
Not quite 450 members we're inchingour way towards 200 but we're,
really excited to be here today.

Brian Searl (06:15):
What I mean, once Canada becomes a 51st state, then
you'll have a lot more pool to

Emily Simmons (06:20):
at least right on that border.
That's right.
Yeah.

Brian Searl (06:22):
So you're right there.
Like Texas is at adisadvantage of that case.
They're not gonna jumble overall those other states, right?

Michael Moore (06:27):
Yeah, but we'll just annex Mexico at that point
and then it'll be even again, so.

Brian Searl (06:33):
Maybe, but they're mostly glamping.
They're mostly glampingdown there, don't they?
Yeah,

Michael Moore (06:37):
it's true.
Yeah.

Brian Searl (06:38):
Anyway, okay.
So let's dive into sometrends and insights.
I think I wanna start withSimon, who was generous enough
to share a presentation with us.
And Simon, briefly introduceyourself when I'm done talking and
run my mouth for a second here.
And tell us about Camp Map, butwho's generous enough to share us
with a presentation from one ofthe largest marketplaces in Europe.

(06:59):
And I know you're gonnaintroduce them in a second.
But is that an accurate statement?

Simon Neal (07:03):
Yeah, that's true.

Brian Searl (07:04):
Okay.
And it was fascinating data tosee some of the trends that are
obviously happening in Europe, butalso how they mirror some of our own.
And so I think that we'll have a good backand forth discussion with Scott Barr, some
of the data he's collected with from theUnited States, and certainly like Michael
and Emily, you're more than willing tojump in and join the conversation too.
So do you wanna, oh, you start Simon, doyou wanna introduce it and then share your

(07:25):
screen or however you want to handle this?

Simon Neal (07:27):
Yeah, sure.
I'll just jump in and share the screen.

Brian Searl (07:31):
I think you can do it from the, from there, can't you?

Simon Neal (07:35):
Yeah.
Let me know if you can see it.

Brian Searl (07:37):
I think you have to go you'll have to go let it into the room, Jessica.
So hover, yeah, hover overtheir faces in the top right.
And then you have to let hisscreen share into the room.
It's Simon Neal, the one that'sgrayed out right there underneath.
Underneath that one.
Yep.
Okay.
Cool.
There we go.

Simon Neal (07:53):
There you go.
Okay, great.
So this was yeah, a webinarthat I watched last week.
Really interesting.
So I thought I'd share a bit ofthat data with you guys here.
So to be clear, first the data source,so you know where this is coming
from and it's probably attributed.
So this comes from PIN Camp and thisis one of the largest marketplaces

(08:15):
in Europe for outdoor hospitality.
PinCamp.com,
and it was print presentedby Uwe Frers, who is the CEO.
So PIN Camp has been around forthat long, it's maybe four or five
years old, but before that it wasa printed publication marketing
platform for campsites in Europe.
So it's been around for a long time,but recently gone fully digital.

(08:37):
And since they've done that, they'vebeen really good at capturing
all sorts of data about bookingtrends, different campgrounds.
So I think overall they've got threeand a half thousand campgrounds listed
on their platform, which is a lot.
It's a big chunk of the Europeanmarket and they primarily serve the
German, Swiss, and Netherlands channel.

(08:57):
So that's where most oftheir traffics comes from.
But they're bookingcampgrounds all over Europe.
So it's really good data source.
And I'll take you through some of theinteresting points that I picked up.
So the first one was just a biggeneric start, which I think
is really interesting, whichis online bookings per edge.

(09:19):
So we all know there's a bigtransition now to move away from phone
booking walk-ins to online bookings.
And this is, really powerfulstatistic that, obviously the younger
generation, it's above 70% middlegeneration, 65%, but then even, 50,
70 year olds, which is actually amassive market segment in Europe.
Retired couples.

(09:40):
Kids have left the hometraveling around in RVs.
It's really strong market there.
It's 53% and it's only really theover 70's who don't book, in the
majority online at the moment.
Such, a pretty powerful statistic andobviously a big signal for everybody to
make sure you're as digital as possible.

Brian Searl (09:57):
Do you have that, any data on that, Scott, that mirrors,
I'm assuming like logically itwould tell you that's the same, but

Scott Bahr (10:03):
It follows the same trends.
Definitely.
Here in our, some of our research,it's been a little bit higher in
terms of the preference for online.
But as in the older age groups,those definitely mirror what we see.

Brian Searl (10:18):
Okay.
Sorry, go ahead Simon.

Simon Neal (10:20):
Okay.
So the next one is moving towards,online booking to booking behavior.
So this is not specificallyonline, this is just in general.
And it's comparing last year, which wasa great year pretty much for everybody.
And then what's happeningso far this year?
So that's looking at bookings thathave come in from like November,
December, January, February time.

(10:41):
And what are the sort of trends so wasasked a very simple question, is there a
change in your booking behavior from yourmain camping holiday due to rising prices?
So this is, families going on vacationfor, 1, 2, 3 weeks in the summer.
This is the kind ofbookings we're looking at.
So from last year and this year, it'spretty similar that people went, same

(11:03):
destination, same length of stay.
There's a bit of a decrease but not huge.
So generally people aregetting what they want.
The next one is, we got thesame destination but slightly
shorter length of stay.
So that's pretty unchanged as well.
And then the other two at the bottom,a cheaper destination, shorter

(11:25):
length of stay decision not to makecamping, holiday because of pricing.
It's the same.
And the whole kind of push behindthis slide, I didn't introduce it
properly, was that there's beenquite a lot of price increase in
Europe over the last few years.

Brian Searl (11:39):
Over here too.
Yeah.

Simon Neal (11:41):
Yes.
It's averaging like 6%, 7% peryear and some specific markets
actually been much higher than that.
What's the effect on that in peopleand generally, 2024 was pretty good,
but it was, we see in 2025 now,there's quite a big change that
actually there's a big chunk of themarket that is looking for cheaper
destination but a unusual length of stay.

(12:02):
It's a mix between these two.
That,

Brian Searl (12:05):
so this is interesting.
Sorry, go ahead.
Please finish and I'll,

Simon Neal (12:08):
it was, so if they get the same destination.
They're gonna stay a bitlonger or shorter, sorry.
Otherwise they're gonna go for thesame length of stay, but they're
gonna look for a cheaper rate.
So that's the kind of big mover here.

Brian Searl (12:20):
So this is interesting to me, Scott, because this, I think,
mirrors a lot of the data that we'vebeen looking at and you certainly
have more than I do, but if we doquick hits real quick, like the usual
length of stay destination is wanted.
I think that's rightfullydeclining year over year.
I think that's what we've seen alittle bit and I'll let you touch
on those specifics in a second.
But shorter length of stay, we'vetalked about that last year with

(12:42):
the decline in camper nights andpeople just taking shorter vacations.
The cheaper destination I think isself-explanatory as prices rise, but
it's really interesting how that maybecorrelates, and I'll let you give your
thoughts on it to the, what we were doinglast year with the research of like best
RV resort and all that kind of stuff.
So like you're looking at best now maybe,does that change or does that flip?

(13:02):
That's interesting.
And then Michael or Emily, if you guyswanna weigh in, I'd love to hear your
thoughts on the, like how the priceincreases that we've seen in the industry
as Simon touched on, like specific tothe cost of RV sites, has increased and
potentially is impacting these behaviorsor decisions in the United States.
Because I know, like Michael, for example,and I don't know as much about the

(13:25):
development in New York, I think it'sjust less, but with all the development
that's been happening in Texas and allthe inventory and all the luxury, like
prices have risen pretty dramatically.

Michael Moore (13:33):
Yeah.
I was gonna say, because of the amountof new parks and new sites coming online
here, and they're building nice parks.
You're absolutely right.
The price point is going up,but what we're finding is
people are paying that right?
Meaning they, they are very happyto pay a little extra if they're
gonna be there anyway for a newerpark, nicer park, et cetera.

(13:55):
Or what they're going for whenthey stay there, whether it's,
they like the safety aspect.
They like the local proximityto certain things or whatever.
So yeah, I could absolutely see that.

Brian Searl (14:05):
Which is what we saw last year, right?
I think that's the, that's a confirmationof what we, of the best, right?
We wanna see the best, we wanna dothe best or willing to spend we might
not be going on as many vacations andstaying as long, but we're willing to
take a little bit of that savings andmake sure we're staying at the best.
Is that accurate?
So the question is willthat continue into 2025?

(14:26):
What do you think, Scott?

Scott Bahr (14:28):
I would say if we continue on this trajectory, it probably will.
It you're gonna see some tightening.
How's that?
I think that yeah, the people are atleast gonna shorten their stays unless
they can find, a better price point.
They, yeah the bottom line ispeople want, really want to go

(14:49):
to the places they want to visit.
They, and they're gonna try as best asthey can to figure out how to do that.
And a lot of times it's decreasingsome costs, decreasing how much you
spend on food and entertainment whenyou're somewhere there's, those kinds
of adjustments are made quite a bit.
But if, as most travelers do, youprobably, if you think of your own

(15:09):
situation, you would most likely if youwanna go visit the place and sign in
your plans, you really want to go there.
But again, you may stay,may not stay quite as long.

Brian Searl (15:22):
Or like where you stay, right?
Like it might be a differentcampground in that area.
You might stay at a, let's just, theeasy example is just to pick on KOA
for a second with Journey, holiday andresort instead of trying to explain it.
But you might stay at a KOA holidayinstead of a KOA resort as an example.

Scott Bahr (15:37):
Correct, right.

Emily Simmons (15:39):
And I think one of the things that we're hearing
too, in addition to sometimesshortening the stay is consolidating.
And what I mean by that is familiesare staying together maybe in one
RV versus an RV and renting a cabin.
So they're still there,they're still going.
But they're bunking up togetherversus multiple types of stay.

Brian Searl (16:01):
Okay.
Anything else you wannashare on that slide, Scott?
Or any thoughts you have?

Scott Bahr (16:05):
No, I think that's, again, what people make adjustments.
They still wanna travel andthey just make adjustments.

Brian Searl (16:10):
For sure.

Michael Moore (16:11):
And just one more thing too that I've, we've noticed is the
booking window has gotten way smaller,in recent times than it was before.
And and whether that's people just unsureof if they're gonna have the money or
they wanna spend the money, until thelast minute or whatever the reason.
But that's absolutelyfactoring into it too.

(16:32):
And for the park owners, as weknow it makes it a little less
certain, how certain holidaysor seasons are gonna look.
But that's the reality is as folksare waiting a lot later than they
used to have booked that vacation.
Yeah.
I think that's two things.
And I think there is a slide later inthis deck that talks about uncertainty

(16:52):
from a European perspective that kindof mirrors what you're talking about.
And Scott and I have talked aboutthis a little bit, primarily during
presidential elections, but also justwith the multitude of changes that are
happening right now in the United States.
Would PCUA to say that regardless ofwhat side you're on, it doesn't matter.
Just, it's a lot of change.
It's coming at people, and so I thinkthat contributes to uncertainty too,

(17:14):
is what, Scott would concur with.
Okay.
Scott, you're not dying, are you?

Scott Bahr (17:19):
I am not.

Brian Searl (17:20):
Okay, good.
We have another show later in,like in an hour, so I just wanna
make sure you're around for that.
Okay.

Scott Bahr (17:25):
If I do, you'll have an hour to find a replacement, so.

Brian Searl (17:29):
Thank you.
That's nice that you gaveme that grace period.
I appreciate that.
But the uncertainty yeah.
Is an interesting thing.
Like we've had that conversation withsome of our clients on the marketing side.
I'm sure you've, from AGS,your side, Michael too.
You've had these conversationswith marketing as well.
I think it's just, it's the uncertainty.
It's the, I don't know whatthe economy is gonna do.

(17:49):
We've seen consumer sentiment, themetric decline we've seen, we don't
wanna dive into all that stuff.
But I think it's an uncertainty of I'mnot quite sure if I'm gonna have a job
in two months or six months, or eightmonths, probably will, but, so I might
as well just wait a little bit andmake sure, and then maybe I'll book in
June with that shorter booking window.

Michael Moore (18:08):
Yeah, no I could, I completely agree.
And that's what I've been discussingwith folks too, is, and you touched on
it before, whenever there's an election,let's say the uncertainty happens before,
and then there's a result, and then nomatter what side wins, okay, this is the
path that it will probably go down whetheragreed with it or voted for it or not
this time around because it seems likethere's something different happening

(18:33):
daily that Yeah it's majorly uncertain andthat uncertainty is extending into sort
of overtime, if you will post-election,post inauguration, whatever.
And yeah it's the uncertainty thatmakes people tense up, and hold
onto their wallet a little tighterthan they used to because yeah.
Whether it's job numbers, is thisgonna cost more in a couple months

(18:55):
or is it gonna cost more to go here?
Those are all things that, before mighthave seemed like you knew the answer a
couple months out, but now not so much.

Brian Searl (19:03):
Yeah.
And so I think it's important tosay too that this is not a political
discussion we're having, this isjust, it doesn't matter who you voted
for or who you didn't vote for, orI'm in a totally different country.
But this is more of like justchange period of any kind.
And it is coming in rapid fire successionand whether you like it or don't like it,
it's still change that causes uncertainty.
Okay.

(19:24):
Are we ready to go on?
Sorry Simon, you're like beenpaused in this slide forever.

Simon Neal (19:28):
No worries.
It's a good discussion.
Okay, so this is just digging a bitdeeper to the real stats and the trends.
Yellow line 2023/2024and blue line, 2024/2025.
So this is showing, clear and again,it's early in the season in terms of
booking season, but reduced, clear,reduced length of stay by 5% or 0.4

(19:51):
nights per booking.
So it's definitely, bookings arestill good, but the length of stay is
definitely less than it was last year.
A significant trend there.
Okay.
Next slide.
And again, this is basicallyrevenue per booking.
And this is pretty much a reflectionof the reduced length of stay.

(20:11):
So the revenue, of course, ifyou stay less, the revenue goes
down, which means you need morebookings to make up for that.
So really.
Quite specific trends happening there.
And then, the next slide, okay, I'llcome to this later, but I don't know if
you wanna discuss on this specifically.
Do you see the same thing or not?
Or should we move on to the next one?

Brian Searl (20:33):
I don't know.
I don't know that we have enough dataon that, like Camp Spot or Newbook
or somebody like that would be a goodperson to shed some light onto this.
So I, I think what you're saying isprobably more true than anything else
is the length of stay is impacting this.
And for the people who can't Ican't calculate this in real time,
this is basically if you add, whatabout 50 bucks to each of these

(20:53):
numbers just is roughly what anAmerican dollar equivalent would be.
Maybe $50 to $75, dependingon the exchange rate.
Just for clarity for Americans lookingat this or I'm not even gonna try
to figure out Canadian dollars, but.

Simon Neal (21:05):
It's close enough to be one-on-one.
Just think of it like that.

Brian Searl (21:08):
Yeah, it's pretty close.
Yeah, it's pretty close.
It's like a dollar eight or something.
Dollar six to a dollar.
But yeah, like I don't think you,do you have anything like this,
Scott, that you've noticed or have a

Scott Bahr (21:16):
No we don't typically track this 'cause it's in one of
those objective measures that comesfrom like the, the bookings and such.
One of the things we track is spendthat they people how much money people
spend in local areas and we've, overthe years we've seen that even sometimes
their length of stay may shorten, butthe amount they spend on expenses other

(21:39):
than accommodations tends to increase.

Brian Searl (21:43):
Okay.
That's interesting.
Is it like one-to-one or is

Scott Bahr (21:47):
It's not one-to-one, but it it's noticeable.
So you, so what you have are people saythat they're gonna reduce the amount
they spend in local areas, but if theyreduce their stay, they spend more.
So there's a bit of a contrast there.

Brian Searl (22:01):
But maybe more psychological to the, that goes back to something
similar, like the best luxury RV resorts.
Like I just wanna enhancemy shorter experience.

Scott Bahr (22:08):
Yeah, exactly.
It's perceived that it's oh,we're staying one last night.
Oh, okay, let's.

Brian Searl (22:14):
Now we have money we can spend extra.
Yeah.

Scott Bahr (22:16):
Shorter stake.

Brian Searl (22:17):
Even though you're just totally defeated your own argument with
saving money, but we, that's another show.
Go ahead.
Go ahead Simon.

Simon Neal (22:25):
Okay, so the next one is is pretty interesting.
On the left hand side, so thisis booking revenue in total.
So left hand side, there'sactual growth from last year.
So although people are spendingless, there's more bookings and
there's good growth, which is solid.
What's really quite interesting, andthis is very specifically for lots of

(22:47):
campgrounds over here pitches is siteslike campsites for you guys, mobile homes
would be your cabin, your glamping stuff.
So there's been huge investment thelast few years on building more cabins,
more glamping and campgrounds that kindof bring in that new market segment.
Maybe came from hotels but actuallythat's really started to shrink and

(23:09):
the growth in RVs and tent siteshas really come above the growth in
cabins, glamping for the first time.
So it's a big market change there.
And I think a lot of that can, sorry.

Brian Searl (23:22):
Go ahead.
Finish and then I ask my question.

Simon Neal (23:24):
No, you go ahead.
I was just gonna.

Brian Searl (23:26):
I was just gonna say do you think that's a result of the tightness or
closeness of the European market given somany places and opportunities that you can
do within, like just say a two hour radiusversus two hours in the United States
might not even take you to the next state?

Simon Neal (23:42):
Not sure.
I think, like I said, prices going up.
If you wanna stay in a cabinmobile home, it's very expensive.
And then the difference betweendoing that in a hotel is very close.
So I think you have much less loyalty toyour customer base who would typically
choose the cabin or the glamping versussomebody who owns an RV that they

(24:03):
paid a hundred thousand dollars for.
If they have that, they're gonna use it.
So I think there's been a bit of a lossin the market over here of people who
were there last year or the year beforewho've now maybe retreated or gone back to
hotels or are doing something different.

Brian Searl (24:17):
I don't know if you know the answer to this, and I want to hear
Scott's thought on this just for a second.
From that just perspective of,do you think that's the same
thing and Michael or Emily too.
But for that loyalty piece of it, I hada good question and tip of my tongue and
now I thought about, and now I missedit for that loyalty piece of it though.
Are you, oh, that's what I was gonna ask.

(24:38):
I don't know if you know this informationSimon, or have a sense of it, but is
there a sense of like how we can keepmore people loyal, like to cabin rentals
into glamping, inside of campgrounds?
Because there's always the argumentof I'm outdoors and there's no hallway
and no elevator and no neighbors.
And so it's be, it's obviously, Ithink it's better to be connected to

(24:58):
nature, that's opinion thing, right?
But have you seen any operators tryto differentiate themselves that way?

Simon Neal (25:04):
I think there's a great value proposition for it.
I think the trend over here, particularlywith lots of our customers, they just
weren't really aggressive on the pricing.

Brian Searl (25:14):
Okay.

Simon Neal (25:14):
And I think that is the main reason people said, okay, that's too much.
And they've gone back to other options.

Brian Searl (25:21):
So they shot themselves in the foot, but that also says
that maybe they can recoup thataudience by correcting their prices.

Simon Neal (25:29):
Yeah, I would say so.
I think it's a lesson learned thatthey've gone up really aggressively
and then last year was a bit flat, andthis year it's definitely coming down.
So they just need to react to that.

Brian Searl (25:39):
Yeah.
I've noticed that like even twoyears ago or what, maybe Yes.
Two years ago I went to Icelandand it was like $950 for a
night in a glamping cottage.
I'm just not I can't afford that.
I could, but it justdoesn't make sense for me.
Scott, what do you think?

Scott Bahr (25:55):
Yeah the, the whole idea of, the structure of the accommodations
that, you know, and you mentioned, thebuilding of the loyalty within that group.
There, there are some groupswho are very loyal to it.
You have people who, you know, again,that leisure traveler who do, who
isn't really into the outdoors.
They are definitely focused on that.
And they, once the, and also theconvenience people, the so there's

(26:17):
a lot you can build on with that.
That part of it.
However, there just appears to besome momentum ever so slight of
people desiring the, a little bitmore of an outdoorsy experience.
And as the glamping market matures,I feel like that will happen more.

(26:41):
We're in a reversed.
Trend of what it used to be, wherepeople would start off intense on the
ground and, especially young peoplethe, it's not that like that anymore.
But one, one of the things we'veobserved, especially in a young
person, is that they start off ata higher level of accommodations.
With walled accommodations, all that.

(27:01):
They're more likely to seek somethingrustic versus if someone starts out
really rustic, they seek somethingmore a little bit more comfortable.
We'll see how that all plays out.
Again, we have a, a generationcoming through who is much, much
more likely to have started eitherstaying at a campground in a, some
kind of accommodation or glampingversus, just a short time ago when

(27:24):
most people start off in tents.

Brian Searl (27:27):
And how do you scientifically define young people?
And before you answer that, remember thatyou don't know anyone's age on this show.

Scott Bahr (27:33):
Look at me.
Geez.
I can't throw any stones.
The, no when I say young, I saygenerally under 30, under 35.

Brian Searl (27:43):
Okay.

Scott Bahr (27:43):
That under 30 group is probably the most interesting.
Such a transitional group.
It's a group that historically by theway, participates very consistently.
That's why I don't talk about generationsall the time because the generations
are a moving thing that, they justkeep getting older and moving along.
Like that under 30 group is one of themore interesting groups again, because,

(28:05):
they're becoming more independent.
They're building their careers andtheir wealth and their families.
It's such a group in transitionthat's the group you have to grab.
And anyway, that's mydefinition of who's young.
Someone who's my son's age andit doesn't matter how old he gets
is gonna be considered young.
So there you have it.

Brian Searl (28:23):
Do you feel like, last question for you,
Scott, and then we'll move on.
Do you feel like as you look at thestat and you hear Simon's thoughts and
my thoughts too just on the potentialpeople pricing themselves outta reach
of a lot of consumers, do you feel likethat's happening in the United States too?
And is there a need for people tothink about maybe not pulling a
lever on it yet 'cause it's still tooearly, but to have a, if this happens

(28:46):
in May or June, I'm gonna do this.
Because I think a lot of this is likeyou're talking about the loyalty of the,
or the disloyalty of the hotel guestswho experience the outdoors and can go
in and out, but could go either way.
But also as I start to think aboutwhat I talked about in Iceland,
like this was a choice, two yearsago between a $950 glamping tent.

(29:08):
And a $350 hotel.
Like things are really expensivein Iceland, to be clear.
But but like it was a stark gapand I really wanted to stay in
one of those glamping cabins.
I just couldn't justify thathuge of a difference in cost.

Scott Bahr (29:21):
My thought on that is if you wanna build a consistent, loyal
clientele you have to be careful ofpricing yourself out of the game.
That for many people, many travelers, andjust look across the spectrum of leisure
travel that someone will take a luxuryvacation like you and your millions going
to Iceland and millions, $7,000 a night.

Brian Searl (29:41):
There's not many advertisers on this show.

Scott Bahr (29:45):
But the for a lot of people, that's a one off.
That's a, that can be a one-off for them.
It can be a a once in a lifetime trip.
It can be a once in every five years trip.
That person who does it everyyear is a different demographic.
A different economic category.
So if, and that's much more limited.
The vast bulk of the populationwho participates in outdoor

(30:07):
hospitality is middle income.
And that person is not gonna spenda lot and they're not gonna, and if
they do, they're is gonna for a couplenights, have an experience and they're
gonna move on the long-term growth.
And I agree, scenario planningI think is really important.
Because there, there is the dangerof doing that, I think it's good to
just have options for people, let themdecide, but don't put, and again, as

(30:31):
an operator, you'd have to decide whatyou want, who do you want on site?
If you want to attract just thatupper middle income group of folks,
then by all means have at it.
But a lot of people are willing totake less to be able to still stay
and have an experience and be inthe outdoors and do, have a campfire
and make smores and all that.

Brian Searl (30:51):
Okay, let's go Simon.
We gotta get to, we're not gonna, we mightnot get to all seven of Michael's things.
He does.

Scott Bahr (30:57):
I talk too much, that's why.
Sorry.

Brian Searl (31:00):
You talk too much?
I talk too much.

Scott Bahr (31:02):
No, that's true too.

Brian Searl (31:02):
Thank you.
Alright, what's next,Simon, on your slide?

Simon Neal (31:04):
That's kind of it.
There's just a bit of a summary.
And I think Michael came up withearlier as well that, there is a bit
of last minute booking trend becauseof the uncertainty that's going around.
So that's definitelypresent in Europe as well.
That's been observed.
So we've gotta see what the nextcouple of months happen for bookings.

Brian Searl (31:24):
Can I ask you just briefly, like what is your, what do you think
is causing uncertainty in Europe?
Because that's, I think, differentthan what I think is causing it
in the United States or Canada.

Simon Neal (31:35):
Yeah, I mean for us it's a lot about pricing in terms
of, cost of living has gone way up.
Political uncertainties everywhere.
And people are just a bit wary.
That's it.
I think they're still gonna go onholiday unless some huge disaster
kicks in, which is not lightly.
They're just sitting tight a bit,being a bit more cautious than usual.
And it's pretty much pricefocused, I would say.

Brian Searl (31:57):
Okay, thank you.
Sorry.

Simon Neal (32:00):
So there's that I talked about this already.
The loyalty this is areally nice statistic.
It's a bit separate thing, butit's nice to show that, the RV
registrations in Germany, again,it's pretty focused on German market,
but it's the biggest in Europe.
It's enormous.
They've had a really strong, solid growth.
This 2023 on the far left is wrong.

(32:20):
It should be 13.
But over the years you had this massivepeak in Covid that threw everything off.
But then it's actuallycome back to the trend.
So there's still a really strong growingtrend, more RVs being registered,
which is, the really loyal customers.
So overall the market is strong,it's growing and it's very resilient.
It's just there's this little uncertaintyblip happening at the moment and a

(32:43):
bit of kind of price pressure as well.

Brian Searl (32:45):
So this is interesting Scott.
You have opposite data here
for registration, don't you?

Scott Bahr (32:52):
Yeah.
Registrations here are declining.

Brian Searl (32:55):
By, what was the number?
Seven, six and a half.
7%?

Scott Bahr (32:58):
Yep.

Brian Searl (32:58):
Year over year.
Okay.
Sorry, go ahead Simon.

Simon Neal (33:02):
No, that's it.
That's the last slide.

Brian Searl (33:04):
I'm glad you included that.
Did I miss that in theemail you sent over?

Simon Neal (33:07):
Yeah, I didn't, I just put that as in last minute
as a kind of extra bonus.

Brian Searl (33:12):
Yeah, I like that.
'cause we've been talking aboutthat on Outwired in the show before.
Alright, Emily, Michael, youhave anything to add before we
move on and talk about you guys?

Emily Simmons (33:23):
I, the one thought I had when we were talking about pricing
out as far as glamping, I think thething that we recommend to our members
is the value proposition piece.
That it's not applesto a hotel necessarily.
The hotel is an offering, a magic show andcomedians and bands and group gatherings
and pancake breakfasts and things.
I think it's just important to reallyadvertise what that value proposition is.

Brian Searl (33:46):
Yeah.
Tell your story.
Share what your experience is,your experiential hospitality.
You've gotta, yeah, that's what we'vebeen preaching to clients all years.
We think this market is gonna get tighter.
I think the industry is just fine, butI don't think there's enough to fill
up all the sites that, for example,have happened in Texas with Michael.
Am I frozen for youguys, or is that just me?

Scott Bahr (34:05):
Yes, you are.

Emily Simmons (34:05):
You are.

Brian Searl (34:05):
Cool.
All right.

Michael Moore (34:07):
We can hear you though.

Brian Searl (34:08):
On my face.

Emily Simmons (34:08):
Yeah.

Brian Searl (34:09):
We'll figure that out in a minute.
But anyway you can go backto Emily or something.
They're not staring atmy crazy, weird face.
But I think that's, something that like Iexpect the industry to be just fine, but
there's not enough people that I don'tthink who are gonna go camping this year
to fill up all those new builds in Texas.
Just pulling out one example.
So I think the story that you tell of yourexperience and what makes you different

(34:31):
is going to be the difference maker.
And if you do that and do yourmarketing right, if you're working with
a good company like AGS or somethinglike that, then you'll be fine.

Michael Moore (34:40):
And I think the thing I would probably add onto that too,
Brian, is and you touched on it first,which is, if you are treating your
customer well, like that's the bestmarketing you can do first and foremost.
Like I tell people, you couldspend a million bucks on Google,
but if you have a crap product,whatever it is, it doesn't matter.
'cause you're not gonnaget any return from that.

(35:00):
And but what I wanted to also say toowas as far as the pricing goes I, the
thing is with campground owners and theoperators, they can't really afford,
even if they wanted to, to what I'llcall a just pricing or or go down in
pricing, because what we're, what, andwe've, I've seen this with a ton of
campground owners all over the country,not just Texas is revenue may be up

(35:24):
compared to pre covid years, right?
So post 2019, but the margins asfar as operating the campgrounds
have explo the cost I shouldsay have operating has exploded.
So the margins have gone down.
They're not what they were pre covid.
And so with the campgrounds, it's notas, it is not as simple as saying, oh,
we'll just go back to pre covid levelpricing and people will come back.

(35:46):
A lot of campgrounds they can't affordto or don't, aren't able to, because the
cost of operating has shot up so much.

Brian Searl (35:52):
Yeah.
And that's the other thing tokeep in mind with inflation too.
And Jessica, will it let youswitch cameras on the board or no?
Okay, cool.
So it's just the board.
So we'll just keep me minimizedfor now, but you guys can hear me.
That's the other thing too, is I'm sorry,say your last comment again 'cause I
was getting distracted by the board.

Michael Moore (36:06):
No, I was just saying that with campgrounds their, with
the operators, their margins are not

Brian Searl (36:11):
Oh, the margin.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Michael Moore (36:12):
As good as they were maybe during the covid time, because
again, the operating costs in everyfacet of it have just exploded.

Brian Searl (36:18):
Because of the same inflation that consumers are dealing with.
The electricity is higher andthe insurance is higher and
everything else is higher.
And because, and we don't have time totalk about this on this show because
people were very hesitant to raise theirrates despite, all the money printing
that went on and all the things like,you should have your rates like 30%
higher than they were in 2021 at least.
Just to be the same priceyou were in 2021, but.

(36:39):
That's a whole other topicfor conversation, so.

Michael Moore (36:41):
And yeah, and you said it it's tricky to pinpoint it
to a single kind of data point onwhat, what your pricing should be.
What I do know is if you'recharging the same as you did
last year, you're doing it wrong.
I know that much, so

Brian Searl (36:54):
For sure.
Absolutely.
So Emily, tell us what, tell usa little bit about Fire Up Forum.
How did it go without mentioning me orScott, 'cause you already mentioned us.

Emily Simmons (37:03):
Great sessions though?
Yeah.
Fire Up Forum.
Thanks.
Thanks for the opportunity to mention it.
It was really derived frommember feedback that our members
wanted to go to live events.
They wanna network, they wannavisit with our suppliers, they
want the education piece of it.
But as we're talking here about costand price, sometimes that's prohibitive
to go somewhere across the state, fouror five hours away for three nights

(37:26):
in a hotel, plus all of the thingsthat a company, the cost of travel.
Same thing with some of our exhibitors.
A lot of our campground ownershave wear multiple hats.
Again, not as many as Michael, but enoughthat they're busy doing other jobs.
So this was really an initiativethat said we wanna get them.
Pardon the pun.
Fired up for the 2025 season.

(37:47):
We go with that here.
And we were able to provide educationand yes, I mentioned both of you
already, but education that getsthem ready for the season, takeaways
that they can implement into theircampground operations right now.
It was a new rollout.
We did have 10 excellent exhibitorsthat joined us, and hopefully as this
continues to grow, we can welcome more.

(38:09):
But it was excellent feedback.
We had over 30 people that were onlive throughout the course of the day,
but the best part about it is theseeducational programs, the exhibitors, the
message boards, all of the things thatwe offered in this forum are available
for our members for up to three months.
So even though it was a one day launchevent, our members can access the

(38:30):
information at their convenience,which was really the whole point.
So that's what we're herefor, to listen to our members
and give them what they want.
That's what Fire Up Forum was.

Brian Searl (38:39):
I think this is an interesting, this is an interesting
thing to me too, and I'm back.
I don't know if you I rebootedmy whole $1,500 board that froze
up in the middle of a show.
But anyway, so this is interestingto me, the virtual stuff, right?
Because we put on, like my, I had acompany temporarily called Camp Con.
We put on some of this stuff duringthe pandemic for virtual events for

(38:59):
people when everything was canceled.
And I think back then there was aclear sentiment and expression that
I agreed with that like obviouslyin-person events are more powerful,
that networking can't be replaced.
Like nobody ever debated that,but people got sick and tired
of being stuck in their homes.
Deservedly right?
And so virtual events got astigma associated with them.

(39:19):
I feel like at least in our industry here.

Emily Simmons (39:22):
Agreed.

Brian Searl (39:22):
Among certain capacities and crowds.
But I think the flip side of this nowis I don't think anybody, including
you, Emily, is saying this virtualevent replaces the conference
that you have in October, right?

Emily Simmons (39:32):
Correct.
Not at all.
It just enhances the abilityto reach more of our members.

Brian Searl (39:36):
So I think that's important to make that distinction
because I feel like there's a lot ofassociations who could benefit from
more touch points with their audience.
There's so much education, there's somuch teaching, there's so much change
and uncertainty happening and there'sso much education and guidance and
updates you can provide to your members.
I'm really not sure why you'redropping the ball, Michael.

Michael Moore (39:57):
Hey, look, I was gonna say I, and you guys are both right in that
as the associations grow, and Emily said,she has 200 members, there's not a one
size fits all solution to reaching them.
There just isn't.
And so you have to be able to meet themon their level, whether it's, and look
for most of them it's the in person.
And for a lot of states andassociations, those are, those do

(40:20):
quite well and are very successful.

Brian Searl (40:21):
Yeah.

Michael Moore (40:21):
But then at the same time, there's gonna be that virtual
office and like for example, for TACO,we do webinars throughout the year.
We'll do a handful of those.
That covers some whatever, relevanttopic there is, but that's, obviously
a real easy way to get information outto people that might not normally be
able to spend three days in Conroe,Texas for the TACO meeting, or.

Brian Searl (40:43):
They might even be able to do that.
Nobody's saying, like there will bepeople who would choose one or the other.
But also you could choose both.

Emily Simmons (40:49):
Absolutely.

Michael Moore (40:50):
Yeah.

Emily Simmons (40:51):
And I think for us too, having speakers and experts
that come on to a virtual event thatmay not otherwise be able to do an
in-person due to scheduling conflict.
So I think there's a lotof benefit there too.

Brian Searl (41:02):
Yeah, that's mostly Scott.
He's super busy.

Michael Moore (41:05):
And I think the it is the need for information between what
me and Emily do with the associations?
That's a, it's a constant stream of that.
Meaning people the operatorsare very hungry for knowledge.
And so it's not as simple ashaving a single event, every year.
And that's where, hey, that'swhere they get all their info and

(41:26):
then they're good for the year.
Like they want it year round.
And whether it's these virtual eventsor the in-person shows and believe
me, I'm sure there's a handful ofother things I'm not even thinking of.
There's absolutely Ithink a demand for it.
It's all about just tweaking itto get the most bang for your
buck outta it, if you'll, exactly.

Brian Searl (41:43):
All right.
So your conference iscoming up, Michael, when?

Michael Moore (41:46):
That will be yeah.
April 29th and 30th.
In Conroe it's at the Lone StarConvention Center where we've
had it the last few years.
We, just a couple days ago, sold out ofexhibitor space, so that's very good.
And that you're adding anotherrow or two, I think in our,

Emily Simmons (42:04):
Oh, good for you.

Michael Moore (42:05):
Yeah and we've got, a good a lineup of speakers.
We've got new this year actually,we're gonna have the RV Tech
Institute put on a seminar theday before the actual show itself.
So it's not part of kindof the main content.
It's the day before, but it'sin conjunction and hosted
at the same host hotel.
Yeah, no, we're looking forward to it.

(42:25):
And attendance looks very good.
But again, I go back to it's that needfor information that, that that people
come for, that they want, that theycan't get a lot of places, like I, I tell
folks sometimes you can't necessarilyGoogle how to run a campground.
You could probably find some things, butnothing's better than information and
networking and talking to people that.

(42:45):
We're both new to the businessand have been here for 30 years.
There's always something that you'regonna be able to learn from those people.

Brian Searl (42:52):
And some of it's the drinking too, let's be honest.

Michael Moore (42:55):
I mean,

Emily Simmons (42:56):
It's where some of the best networking happens.

Brian Searl (42:58):
Yeah.

Michael Moore (42:59):
Truly.
That is the best networking.
Quite honestly,

Brian Searl (43:02):
I don't even want to imagine the conversations that we would have at
conferences if we were all drinking Pepsi.
They just wouldn't be the same.

Michael Moore (43:09):
They'd be a lot shorter.
I know that much.

Brian Searl (43:11):
So what's your most important priority here
for Texas right now, Michael?
Like for your members,what are you focusing on?

Michael Moore (43:19):
Yeah, I would say without a doubt legislative.
Because we will survey our membersevery couple of years for, 'cause
we like to recalibrate what we'redoing, quite honestly for the
members and what they want us to do.
And so legislative is always thetop priority, meaning having us
be on the lookout for, their sortof rights as campground owners and
protecting the way they can operate.

(43:40):
And for this year.
An interesting thing with Texas is ourlegislature is only in session every
other year which is great because again,it means that we're not having to do this
kind of dog and pony show every year.
But so what that means is we'll havea couple pieces of legislation that
are being introduced, making theirway through, through the Congress, and
making sure that, we get things donefor campground owners so that they

(44:03):
can quite honestly, better run theirbusiness and probably more so here, get
the government out of their business.

Brian Searl (44:09):
Emily, same question to you.

Emily Simmons (44:11):
And very similar answer.
And I know New York has a great reputationfor being super business friendly, right?
So it makes my job very easy.
And I say that jokingly, of course.
So our job really rightnow is also legislative.
We have several advocacy pieces thatwe're working on really to help keep costs
down for our operators and our owners.
The savings programs, really justgetting the word out to our members in

(44:34):
the wake of everything we talked abouttoday, and how a lot of our savings
programs can help them operationally.
And then marketing.
Listen we're neighbors to Canada.
We have a lot of our campgroundsthat are feeling the effects of that.
So working to focus on domesticmarketing, but also making sure that
our friends to the north know thatthey're welcome and we want them here.

(44:56):
So those are some of the bigpriorities for us right now.

Brian Searl (44:59):
All right.
Michael, let's talkabout CAMP for a second.
We got a couple minutes left.
The people who don't know, like Iknow you introduced it briefly, but

Michael Moore (45:06):
Yeah.
CAMP is an organization of statecampground association executives.
So essentially the folks that aremanaging TACO and CONY and KOA
and Florida and those associationsthat are in those states.
And regional too.
We do have a couple of regionalassociations, but yeah.

Brian Searl (45:25):
You're gonna, you're gonna leave somebody out and they're gonna be
the one person who's watching this show.

Michael Moore (45:30):
Oh, I know.
I'm probably getting a text at the,this moment from a camp member, a buddy
of mine who says, Hey, you forgot me.
Which look, if you don't wanna if youcan go to the website, we've got our
members there, campgroundexecutive.com.
But yeah.
So what we're, for us it's about gettingtogether and sharing quite honestly the
things we all go through because it'ssuch a niche thing that we do as far as

(45:51):
these associations and even the industry.
Not that camping itself is a nicheindustry, but just the fact, the jobs that
me and Emily and other executives haveis such a, it's a small world and it's
very helpful to learn from each other.
And for our meeting coming up, we havea meeting in Washington DC in June.
Actually tariffs are gonnabe one of the issues we talk
about and dealing with that.
'cause even though, notevery state borders Canada.

(46:14):
All the states are gonna feel the effectof it as far as that traffic goes.
And what happens there, especially Texas,as you can imagine, we have our winter,
our snowbirds that come here during thewinter time, and so that's gonna have

Brian Searl (46:26):
Winter texan.
Michael.
It's winter Texans.
It's winter Texans.
Michael.

Michael Moore (46:30):
I know.
I wanted to be ambiguousand welcoming to all, but.

Brian Searl (46:33):
Oh, sorry.

Michael Moore (46:34):
Yeah, well I mean, that's kinda,

Brian Searl (46:34):
Kinda steal from Arizona, I didn't wanna step on your toes.

Michael Moore (46:36):
But that's gonna be a big thing that we talk about is the
impact that, that, and with the meetingin June, we'll know more obviously by
then what the fallout is, but dealingwith that and then, the ongoing effect
of, the national sort of going withthe direct model route and what that
looks like for a lot of the stateassociations who were formally affiliated

(46:57):
with that and navigating those waters.
Yeah, but there, there's a lot of goodstuff that, that we have going and we like
to share and we all get along very well.
And yeah, no, it should bea good meeting in June and I
think a lot will come out of it.

Brian Searl (47:10):
Alright, let's wrap up with a data point real quick.
We'll start with you Simon.
So of all the people that you'reconsulting with on maps and Europe
and elsewhere around the world, whatis one kind of data insight or trend
that you're drawing their attention tothat they should be mindful of in 2025?

Simon Neal (47:27):
Yeah, it's coming back to the theme I talked about.
It's digital book ability isreally important and showing what
you have by your proposition.

Brian Searl (47:37):
Okay.
Same question to you Emily,but obviously not for Europe.

Emily Simmons (47:45):
Marketing?

Brian Searl (47:45):
Is there anything specific though, like something that I.
And I know Scott will be specific, but isthere anything you're like, just pulling
something, I'm not saying this is youranswer, but like consumer sentiment,
watch that, or something like, like aspecific thing that you're counseling
your members to be mindful of this year?

Emily Simmons (48:01):
Yes, it goes back to the consumer sentiment, being aware of cost.
It really wraps up everythingwe talked about today and
the value proposition piece.
And I think just sharing upfront whatthey are able to offer to the consumer.

Brian Searl (48:18):
Okay.
Michael.

Michael Moore (48:19):
Can I do two?
Is that cheating or?

Brian Searl (48:21):
Yes, you can do two.
Not gonna be super long-winded,that's why we did everybody else.

Michael Moore (48:24):
No.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The first one I would sayis, through surveying.
I know our readers through AGS andour readers with our state campground
guide, our Texas Campgrounds magazine.
We know that folks RVers and readers ofthose guides keep those after they leave
the destination, whether it's leaving thecampground, leaving the state, whatever.
And so I say all that to say to reallyremind campground owners and operators to,

(48:48):
do as much as you can to promote yourselfto the people that are already there.

Brian Searl (48:53):
I don't wanna be the weird contrarian guy here, but how do you know
that they keep the guidebooks, for sure?

Michael Moore (48:58):
We have surveys of thousands of our readers of the guides,
or thousands of, honestly, the peoplethat request our TACO magazines at RV
shows, we've got surveys there, so.

Brian Searl (49:09):
You have strong data.

Michael Moore (49:10):
I'm not saying it's extensive as Scott's method.

Brian Searl (49:12):
You have strong data points, but you don't actually know for
sure, like there's no hidden camerasor anything that you're monitoring.

Michael Moore (49:18):
No, that's illegal.
As far as the hidden cameras go.

Brian Searl (49:21):
I don't know what's legal and not in Texas, man, you're in Texas.
Like anything goes down there.

Michael Moore (49:26):
True.
But we're also big on the personal.
So just be careful.

Brian Searl (49:29):
Okay.
That's true.
That's fair.

Michael Moore (49:31):
But no, what I, say all that to campgrounds, you've
got that captive audience there.
Do everything you can to encourage therepeat stay, the referral stay, whatever.
'Cause again, the number one sourceof all anyone's business can run
otherwise is repeat referral.
So do everything you can to getthat info into your guest hands so
that they come back and tell people.
And then I'd say the second one andagain I don't know the exact number, but

(49:54):
I know that I use Scott's data on theconsumer spend in the community a lot,
especially on the AGS side, to educate thecommunity on the fact that, hey, this RV
park is bringing a lot of people to thearea and they're spending money in town,
so don't sleep on this this destinationor this park down the road just because
you think, oh, there's only a couplehundred people in there at any one time.

(50:16):
But extrapolate that over the entiregear, and you're talking about a lot
of money being spent in the community.

Brian Searl (50:23):
For sure.
Scott?

Scott Bahr (50:25):
I think, for me it's looking at the close to home.
People staying close to home.
We've been tracking this a littlebit and we started off the year with
looking like people were gonna venturea lot further out this coming year.
Things have changed andthe radius is shrinking.

(50:45):
We're looking at about, a third of allpeople, campers, stay within 50 miles.
That's what they're saying right now.

Brian Searl (50:53):
What is it normally?

Scott Bahr (50:54):
It's usually 20% to 25%.

Brian Searl (50:57):
Okay.

Scott Bahr (50:57):
It's noticeable.
The other, on the other end of that,there, there was a group of people who
were looking to venture further out, morethan 200 miles and that, that has shrunk.
Excuse me.
Sorry.
That snuck up on me.
The proximity.
So what I've been saying is,look at the people close by.

(51:21):
And especially when you considerthe potential, like I live in Maine.
Losing a lot of peoplefrom Canada already.
A lot of businesses have, Ithink be more internally focused.
In order to make up forthat within short distance.
And there may be people who normallydon't go to places like Beach who
will do that now, knowing thatit's probably gonna be pretty open.

Brian Searl (51:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean I think for me it's just, froma marketing standpoint, we have these
conversations with so many people is justpay attention to these shifts in behavior.
And whether it's nationwide to local orwhen this, when we get out of whatever
this uncertainty is, whether it'sthis year or five years or whatever
it is, the shift back to nationwideto longer trips, whether it's,
millennials to Gen Z to boomers, whetherit's big RVs to small RVs, whether

(52:08):
it's tents to glamping or whatever,or Canadians to versus Americans.
You have to pay attentionto this data at some point.
And you have these, a lot of youhave these powerful reservation
systems, Camp Spot, Newbook,ResNexus, et cetera, et cetera.
And now I'm gonna get a text,Michael, 'cause I forgot somebody.
But you have this powerful data that'savailable in all of these reports, and
certainly it's a lot, nobody's saying youhave to look at it all, but pick a couple

(52:31):
things that you think might be changing in2025 as a result of whatever you believe
and track them and pay attention to them.
And then say to yourself, if this goesthe way I think it is, or it doesn't
go the way I think it is, what isgonna be my plan now, as Scott talked
about creating a path and hopefullyyou, if it's a negative outlook, you

(52:52):
never have to take that path, but atleast you have it in your back pocket.
It's the same thing we'retalking about with our clients.
Just like plan for theworst case scenario.
What if the GDP of theUnited States is down 2.4%
like the Atlanta Fed is predicting.
Like what if that happens?
Maybe that doesn't change anycamper behavior, but maybe it does.
So let's just have a plan, whetherthat's a discount code or rate change
or marketing shift or whatever.

(53:13):
That's my thing.
So thank you guys for joining us.
I appreciate it was another good episode.
Data and insights.
Thanks Simon for stealing the wholeshow and with your presentation.
But it was really good.
Like I really do hearing that data'cause especially when it generally
speaking, I like hearing it, but whenit, especially when it correlates and
backs up the fact that like the behaviorof humans generally speaking in Europe
or in Asia or in, anywhere in the worldin the United States, Canada, et cetera,

(53:37):
is generally the same when thingshappen, like prices rise and behavior
shift and all that stuff happens.
Thank you guys for joining us.
I appreciate it.
It's in a good episode.
We'll see you next week.
Another episode of MC Fireside Chats.
If you are not tired of me and Scott yet,we will be talking for another little bit
on our next show Outwired, which startsin a little bit less than an hour now.
We'll be talking about prepping yourcampground for the upcoming season with

(54:00):
some data that Greg Emmert's gonna share.
Some insights  Greg Emmert's gonna sharefrom a consulting campground perspective.
Scott's gonna share some data and I'lljust sit there and I dunno what I'll
do 'cause I don't even look pretty.
So I'll just sit there.
Thanks guys.
Have a good show.
I appreciate it.

Simon Neal (54:13):
Thank you, everyone.

Michael Moore (54:14):
Bye bye.

Scott Bahr (54:15):
Thanks.