MC Fireside Chats - February 5th, 2025

In the February 5th episode of MC Fireside Chats, host Brian Searl welcomed recurring guests Mark Koep, Founder of Campground Views, and Scott Bahr, Principal of Cairn Consulting Group. The special guest for the episode was Angie Whitcomb, President and CEO of Hospitality Minnesota, marking the show’s first episode under its revamped format. Brian kicked off the discussion with lighthearted remarks about his studio setup before diving into key industry topics. Brian introduced Angie Whitcomb, clarifying her name after a humorous mix-up in his notes. Angie provided an overview of Hospitality Minnesota, a statewide association representing over 3,500 members across restaurants, hotels, resorts, and campgrounds. She shared that the organization was formed through a merger of three separate associations just before the COVID-19 pandemic, which shifted their focus from growth to crisis management. Angie emphasized the association’s advocacy efforts, supporting businesses of all sizes with resources and legislative representation. Mark Koep discussed the current state of the camping industry as it transitions into what he termed a “normal” year following the disruptions caused by COVID-19 and the U.S. election cycle. He noted that many park owners who entered the industry during the pandemic boom are now realizing that attracting guests requires consistent marketing efforts. The industry, he explained, is moving away from the automatic high demand seen during the pandemic and facing a more competitive environment. Scott Bahr provided insights from his ongoing research for the upcoming Outdoor Hospitality Report, scheduled for release later in the spring. He noted that while some traditional outdoor activities are waning, new trends are emerging. Scott compared the post-COVID landscape to a natural disaster recovery, where old structures are cleared, making room for new growth. He highlighted the rising popularity of car camping and the associated products, such as rooftop tents and vehicle-attached shelters, which are reshaping outdoor travel behaviors. The discussion shifted to economic conditions affecting the hospitality industry. Angie highlighted Minnesota’s unique challenges, including aggressive minimum wage laws, the absence of a tip credit, and a persistent labor shortage affecting hospitality businesses. Despite reports of increased revenues, many businesses are struggling with profitability due to rising operational costs. Angie stressed that inflation, wage mandates, and workforce shortages are creating financial pressures for both large and small hospitality businesses. Brian and Mark discussed how economic shifts are influencing consumer behavior. Angie pointed out that travelers are becoming more selective, seeking greater value and unique experiences for their money. This trend is evident across campgrounds, hotels, and restaurants, where guests are looking for personalized, memorable experiences rather than just standard amenities. She shared examples from Minnesota, where businesses that focus on exceptional customer service and meaningful guest interactions are outperforming competitors. The conversation explored how technology, particularly artificial intelligence (AI), is transforming the industry. Brian and Mark emphasized that AI can help campground owners analyze customer data, predict trends, and enhance marketing strategies. Mark suggested that campground operators should actively seek feedback from guests to understand why they choose specific destinations, as this information can inform marketing and service improvements. They discussed how AI tools can simplify this process, making advanced data analysis accessible to small business owners. Angie, Brian, and Mark delved into the broader implications of AI and technological advancements, not just for business operations but also for education and workforce development. Angie expressed concerns about the traditional education system’s ability to...

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome to another episode ofMC Fireside Chats. My name is Brian

(00:50):
Searl with Insider Perks andModern Campground. Finally getting
my studio to come togetherbehind me here. So kind of excited.
Still a few more pieces to go,and maybe this Mark will be. Mike
will be coming at me from aside instead of directly in front
of my face. Although Iprobably look better with it in front
of my face in hindsight. So Igot that. Like, there's always a
glass half full moment. So.But super excited to be here for

(01:12):
our first kind of. This is ourfirst episode of the new revamped
kind of show format, eventhough we appear to be missing, like,
a bunch of people whocommitted to come to the show, but
hopefully they will show up,and if not, we'll have a good conversation
here. So we have Scott Barrfrom Cairn Consulting Group and Mark
Koep from Campground Views astwo of our recurring guests here.
And then we have as a specialguest this week, Angel Whitcomb is

(01:34):
the president CEO ofHospitality Minnesota. Welcome, Angel.
Is it Angie or Angel? Angie.Okay. My notes say angel, so that's
fun. Anyway, I thought thatwas weird. I was looking at it. I
was like, I wanted to call youAngie. I'm like, it doesn't make.
I mean, there are Angels, so Ijust didn't want to be, you know,
judgmental or anything becauseAngel's a good name, too. But do

(01:59):
you want to introduce yourselfbriefly, Angie, and tell us just
a little bit about your organization?
Sure. Thank you so much forhaving me, Brian. I'm Angie Whitcomb.
I'm the president ofHospitality Minnesota, which is the
statewide trade associationfor restaurants, hotels, resorts,
and campgrounds in the stateof Minnesota. And we have about 3,500

(02:20):
in membership. And I joinedthe organization just under two years
ago.
Awesome. Well, we're excitedto have you here. I want to dive
into some of the things thatyou're doing because as we all know,
associations are critical tothe success of a lot of these small
businesses who don't have bigbusinesses too. Right. To be clear.

(02:40):
But a lot more, I think, tothe small businesses who don't necessarily
have the resources of some ofthe bigger groups. And so excited
to dive into that with youbefore we kind of get started. Mark
and Scott. It's been, well,like, since last year, since we were
on a show together. Right. Sothere's my little. What's happening
to my camera? That's fun. Sojust drag one of them over there,

(03:03):
Lisa. So anything else that'sbeen going on in your guys's world
that you need feel me to bringup and discuss.
Yeah. So we've been on ourend. So first off, hello everybody.
Brian, I love thatintroduction that you have for this,
this video. That was cool. Ilove it. The biggest thing that's

(03:23):
going on in our world is thatwe're going into the spring, the
winter and spring trade showseason. And so we've been down, our
team's been to a number oftrade shows. We'll be at Carolina
this next week and kind ofhearing the same thing across the
board. And I think Scott'sgoing to echo this too, is we're
kind of into a normal campingyear. The election cycle's over,
right? Yay. We don't have theuncertainty of that. And this will

(03:43):
be the first year really postCovid that we kind of have a normal
camping year. And so a lot ofpeople are experiencing that for
the first time. A lot of parkowners who bought properties during
the peak of this bubble and orthis, this Covid bubble that we had
and they're, they're kind ofdiscovering that. Wait, you mean
people don't just randomlyshow up at my park all the time and
fill it up all the time. Youactually have to do marketing and
what do I have to do there?And so we're kind of seeing that

(04:05):
right now where it's more of anormal season.
Do people show? I think thepeople that show up are just there
to like, dine and ditch, so tospeak. Those are the people. Like
those people still show up.But I feel like that's not helping
the bottom line. And we'regoing to get into that. Right. Like
you're like, I think it's anormal year, but I also think it's
an abnormal year from aneconomic standpoint. Right. Like

(04:27):
where. And we'll talk aboutmore about that maybe on our outwired
show later, Scott, because wedon't want to get into into some
of that stuff. But like I I isnormalizing from what you just talked
about from COVID from thepresidential election, things like
that. I think it'll beinteresting to see what the economic
conditions of 2025 and some ofthe policies that are being put into
place, you know, state andfederally that may or may not impact

(04:49):
this inflation, stuff likethat. But that's like a Debbie Downer
conversation. We'll save thatfor outwired. So, Scott, anything
on your plate?
You know, we're looking atthis year's data from, for the new
outdoor hospitality reportthat'll be coming out later this
Spring, we've been immersed inthat. And I would echo what Mark

(05:16):
said, that there's. There'sgonna be some interesting stuff for
people to see. To be a littlebit of a teaser that, yeah, it feels
like things are, in somerespects, they're resetting, but
it's resetting based on. It'sthat what the example I use think
of a natural disaster like a.A flash flood or a forest fire that

(05:41):
comes through and kind ofscours things out, and then what
happens on the other side isvery different. And that was kind
of what Covet did. So you'regoing to see new things sprout up.
You're going to see somechanges in the landscape, and you're
going to see some of thethings that were there before appear
as well. So that's my metaphorfor the day. I'll try not to use

(06:03):
anymore because I'm not verygood at it. But, yeah, it's gonna
be an interesting year. Andthere's a. There's a lot going on
this spring and we'll have tokeep a prize of it. I know, Mark.
I see your name all over theplace at the. The different conferences.
I'll be at a couple myself inthe. The coming months, so it'll
be fun.

(06:24):
Yeah, that should be. TheCARVconferenceis comingupsoon,right?Isit.Aretheystill
they still called CARVC? I d
This Sunday? Yep.
Yeah. Okay. I wish I could getto all these. It's expensive to fly
from Canada, but anyway, we'lltry to do that. But Scott, do you
want to talk about briefly,like, I want to get into Angie and
her association, obviously. Idon't think we're going to be able
to talk a full hour about thatas much as fast. Well, we could.

(06:47):
We could. Angie's probablydoing enough interesting things.
We could talk for an hour.
I think so. I'd love to talkto her about. For about an hour,
so.
Yeah, well, we will. We will.We'll talk to her like. But maybe.
Maybe we'll give her a halfhour. Is that there? Is that enough
for you, Scott?
Well, I have to leave early, so.
Oh, okay. Well, we'll justbriefly then. And we're going to
dive into this more onOutwired later. But briefly touch

(07:08):
on the report that we justreleased for hospitality highlights.
Yeah, I think one of thethings that, you know, you and I
have talked about extensively,but comes out in this evaluation,
I'll call it, that we do, ofthe marketplace and what's going
on, based a lot on People'sbehavior and interests and how that's

(07:30):
changing. And a lot of thetraditional ways that people are
seeking to experience theoutdoors are changing in terms of
they're waning a bit. Again,it's a bit of a refresh. So what
we're seeing is this desirefor different types of experiences

(07:51):
while people are camping andglamping and again, experiencing
the outdoors, whether it's howthey're looking for information,
which I think is veryimportant. It's one of the things
that we do a lot of is lookingat what is the level of interest
in these different topics. So,for example, we've seen this huge
increase in people who wereusing the new way of referring to

(08:14):
car camping, which is peoplewho sleep and stay in their cars.
That part of the industry istaking off. And it's taking off not
just from participation, butthe products as well, which I think
are very important. Because,for example, a lot of campgrounds
won't accept people sleepingin their cars. Yeah.
Because there's astereotypical adage of like a trailer

(08:37):
park. Right. It's not. It'sjust. It's not what it was. But they
made it out to be.
Yep. Are one campgroundseither figuring out a way to compromise
with these folks? Are thesefolks improvising? But the industry
itself is responding a littlebit with more of the products. The.
The tents that. That canattach and the, you know, the rooftop

(09:03):
tents, which have been aroundfor a little while anyway, but also
the ones that go out the. Likethe back, if you have, say, a Subaru
Outback is very common car,camping vehicle. So they attach it
to the back. So now theyactually have a tent. People are
building the products to goinside of these. And the reason I
bring it up as is it's agrowth segment when everything. Now

(09:25):
so much else. We've heard alot about declines and. And in different
sectors and especially withRVs, you know, we've seen some declines
there, but this is growth.This is growing. The interest not
just in. In the way people aredoing it in their cars, but the products
that support it. And I thinkthat's. That's just important to.

(09:45):
To consider in the biggercontext of our industry, which is
one, how are people lookingfor information, but how are they
looking to experience thingsagain? You know, we've looked at
some of these other trends,like, you know, people's interest,
in the actual words of likecamping and RVing are declining.

(10:06):
But when you look at, youknow, the van life or car camping
again, or, you know, some ofthese Other forest bathing is up.
Continues to climb.
People ask, what do youactually like? I mean, I understand.
Is it literally what it is,forest bathing or.
It's. It's basically sittingin the forest and kind of taking
it all in. Kind of like whatyou used to do. You know, you walk

(10:27):
out in the woods and maybe siton a rock or something and just kind
of sit there and hang out fora bit. That's kind of what it is.
Well, like, when you say it,it comes to mind, like, I've been
to, like, those natural hotsprings, right? We have some here
in Canada. And, like, I'vebeen to Iceland and, like, there's
kind of those natural hotsprings. You kind of like. That's
what I would think forestbathing would be, right?
It is, right. But no, it isnot. It's like kind of like immersing

(10:52):
yourself in the forest as youwould in the hot spring and. Sounds
much more inviting, by theway. But yeah, it's. It's not that,
Brian. It's. It's that. It'sjust kind of people hanging out and
relaxing and looking atdifferent ways of kind of experiencing
the outdoors. And, you know,there's these desires to reconnect

(11:15):
as well. There's. Anyway,there's a lot going on there. There's
a lot to say about it. But in.In terms of kind of what we were
trying to do with the reportis show how this things. How people
want to experience theoutdoors is changing, how the words
they're using are changing,and there still is opportunity out

(11:37):
there, but you have to go getit, and you have to kind of meet
people where. Where they areand bring them in, because they're
not using a lot of thetraditional ways, whether it's the
channels, the words they'reusing, how they're doing their searches,
but also how, again, how theywant to stay. It's like I could produce

(11:58):
like 50 graphs that show this.
You know, we're gonna talkabout it more on outwired, right?
Like, we're gonna. This ispart of what we're gonna dive into
is Lisa puts me on camera withmy water bottle open. It's a nice
water bottle. I just. Thespot. We should have a sponsor for
the water bottle sponsor. ButI'm not that popular. Nobody watches
the show, so. But so it islike, I do want to dive into that

(12:20):
more on outwired, right?Because I have, you know, some of
the things that are changing,like you talked about with behavior,
but also stereotypes like carcamping or trailer parks or things
like that, that liketraditionally a lot of owners have
said, like, ew, I don't wantthat at my park. And I think that

(12:40):
there's obviouslyjustification for some of that. Ooh,
right? Or ooh, you. I can'teven. How do you pronounce that word
anyway? But I also think thata lot of it is changing. Right. And
so that terminology, we almostneed like an updated guidebook of
sorts to say like this couldmean this, so watch out for it still
and be cautious of it andmaybe don't accept it into your park.

(13:01):
But also there's a segment ofthis now that is growing or shrinking
in some cases or changing thatmaybe you do want in your park. Especially
if we're heading into aneconomic time where it's no longer
you build it, they will justcome. Right, right.
Yeah, it's. I think the bottomline is, and if you, if you look
at the report, what you'll,you'll be able to see is that there

(13:26):
are some relationships too toexternal factors like, you know,
the travel price index, gasprices, stuff like that, and how
people are seeking to travel.I'm going to say travel in general
and because one of the thingsthat I talk about a lot is that people
have a desire to travel. Theystill want to travel somehow. The

(13:47):
outdoors is typically a greatway to do that. But if you have sustained
economic anxiety, that's goingto change even more. People are going
to look for other types ofalternatives apart from some of the
traditional ways ofexperiencing the outdoors and how
they travel. You know, inrecent years we saw road trips again.

(14:08):
Road trips and car camping,they're highly related. It's, you
know, it's less expensive interms of prices of gas and so on.
You can look for alternatives.There's a lot of free places to,
to stay. And again, these aredriving a lot of the behavior. So
it's one of those things that,you know, people who are at the park
should keep track of. Theyshould monitor what people are doing.

(14:28):
They should talk to theirguests, ask them questions. Those
people who are car camping, Ithink they're great people to have
a conversation with becausethey'll tell you a lot about what's
going on and look at theirmotivations and what's drive, what's
driving them.
But the, yeah, we know what'sdriving them. They're sleeping in.
It's got. That's easy.

(14:49):
Asleep at the wheel. Has awhole new meaning.
We don't even need datascientists like you anymore. We've
got this handled.
So anyway, it's it's, youknow, with all the economy, the election,
as Mark mentioned, you know,that kind of being in the rearview
mirror, I'm going to keepusing metaphors until someone shuts
me down that it's, it's keepan eye on these things because they're

(15:14):
impacting what people aredoing. And like I said, there's growth
out there. It just, it's not.You're gonna have to find it. And
it's not in places that aretraditional. Traditional.
Well, that's why I think it'sinteresting that we have Angie on
here. Right. And why I want todive into Angie's association here
for a few minutes because it'sinteresting. Like you. Well, all

(15:35):
of us, Mark and Scott, we'vebeen in this industry for a long
time. And I've been to, youknow, pre Covid. I went to every
single state association show.I would still like to go every state
association show. People emailme too much for me to do that. And
some. I moved to Canada orsomething. So that's. Anyway. But
like, we've. For all theassociations and correct me if I'm

(15:55):
wrong, Mark, but like forevery other association except for
Minnesota that exists and somestates don't have any. But for the
ones that exist, there arenone that combine campgrounds and
hotels, let alone campgrounds,hotels, restaurants, all of hospitality
are there.
There are none. No. Theclosest you'll get would be like
a DMO or destination marketingorganization who may represent some

(16:16):
campgrounds that are in theirarea. But that's about the closest
you'll get, usually because.And there's reasons. And I'll let
Angie kind of explain. Like, Iimagine there's challenges because
campgrounds are obviouslydifferent than hotels, and hotels
may be driving more revenue tothe association, and therefore they
have a higher. A better say ora bigger say or whatnot. It's. I
couldn't. I can't imaginetrying to herd that many cats. Not

(16:37):
only you doing hotels andcampgrounds, but also. I think you
said restaurants also.
So we're just gonna imagine.And Angie's gonna tell us how she
do. She's gonna give us oursecret sauce in a second. But like,
but yeah, like, I think that'sjust. It's something that we emphasize
on this show so much is theworking together piece of it. And
we've had, for example,Harvest so Sunny or In Hip Camp Alyssa

(16:59):
and, and, and I've talked atconferences to people who, like,
there's. It goes back to thestereotypes, right? The. Oh, these
people are staying in aWalmart parking lot. Or, oh, these
people are staying overnightat a winery. Away business from my
private campground. Or, oh,they're staying in a hotel that's
not my guest. But the truthis, I think. And the way our, like,
data that Scott hasresearched, and I'm sure Angie will

(17:21):
tell us, is, like, peoplesometimes want to stay in a hotel,
and maybe next time they wantto go camping, and maybe the second
time they will go camping,they'll stay in a Walmart parking
lot or a winery, and then thenext time they go to a private campground.
And so, like, I think there'sa ton of crossover here for all this
stuff to work together and becohesive, which is ultimately what
we want. They all complementeach other, but instead, the conversation

(17:43):
that I hear tends to be like,why would you go to a hotel when
you could stay outside andwave to your neighbor? I don't want
to wave to my neighbor. That'sme. Like, right. Like, I don't care.
Like, but I'm also, like, aworkaholic. Right? So that's not
probably the way I should be.But. But then there's the people
in the hotels who are like,why would you want to go outside
with bugs? And so, like, Ifeel like there's just a place for

(18:04):
all this stuff. As we talkedabout, more people are going back
into Cruising, for example,this year after Covid. Toby O'Rourke
has talked about that in someof her LinkedIn posts and stuff.
But that's just. They're notgone from camping. They're just doing
something different this year.So, Angie, how do you hurt all the
cattle?
Yeah, well, you don't hurt allthe cattle. And so to give a little

(18:27):
background on how we ended upbeing the association that is trying
to cover it all, prior toCovid, we were three separate associations
with a parent organization. Sowe were the Restaurant association,
we were the Lodgingassociation, and then we were the
Resort and CampgroundAssociation. Pre Covid. They merged
them all together, brought theparent company in, and thought that

(18:49):
we would get much further withcombining efficiencies rather than
having six boards and sixfoundations and all of the things.
And it makes perfect sense.And then Covid hit, and we never
got to launch as this big,powerful voice of hospitality in
Minnesota because we were toobusy just trying to get information
to everybody during thepandemic on here's. Here's the rules

(19:13):
as they're ever changing, andhere's, you know, the tools and avenues
for survival. So, you know, itis a unique challenge that we are
members well, and one of thethings that I have found and I came,
my background was in chamberof commerce world, so I was used
to sort of representing of thebusiness community in a larger scale.

(19:35):
So having, you know, threediverse segments of membership to
serve is not unique to me froman experience standpoint, but it
does bring up the challenges.And for as many similarities as all
of our segments or sectorshave, there are those unique things.

(19:56):
And Minnesota, we've struggledthe last couple of years with weather.
We had a winter with no snowor ice, and so winter camping and
all outdoor winter activitiestook a hit. And then we had the spring
that was all floods and allrain. And so we've just taken a hit

(20:17):
that way. And that impacts ourresorts and campgrounds, you know,
and, you know, how do you herdthe cats? I don't know that you do.
You just. I think, Mark, Ithink you said it beautifully, where
as much as you're trying tofind people where they're and meet
them where they're at andbring them in from the guest perspective,
that's really what we aredoing. We're trying to do with our

(20:39):
membership and, you know, theadvocacy things, the advocacy issues
that we tackle on behalf ofthe greater hospitality industry.
There's a lot of commonality.I mean, you talk about employer mandates,
so earn sick and save time andminimum wage mandates, and particularly

(21:00):
in our restaurants and hotelsright now we've got a battle going
on here with service fees andthe ability for states and these
businesses to charge them. Sothere's always something. And you
know, campgrounds this year,they showed up on the advocacy radar
with their own special uniquelegislative challenge. And that's

(21:20):
that language between thecampground and the guest and making
sure that it is changed to notbe the landlord tenant relationship
are perceived that way anduninvite a guest if need be without
it being a civil issue. Sowe've got, you know, there's, there's
a. We're busy all the time andwe're looking for commonalities,

(21:44):
for efficiencies. But we also,as the statewide association with
that many stakeholders, we'vegot to find those unique issues and
address them equally. And wedo get a lot of heat. Oh, restaurants
get all the attention. Ourhotels get all the attention, you
know, but we're trying to,we're trying to service all of them.

(22:05):
Well, that's what I was goingto ask you, right? Like whether we
were just basically makingthis up because we have no concept
of what happens, like in ourown little heads telling us the story
of everybody's inviting andgive me preference or not preference.
Or you're preferring hotelsover campgrounds over restaurants.
Like, and the more I thinkabout it, like, there probably obviously
is a little bit of that goingon because, you know, not everybody
is always getting along andhappy go lucky with everybody else.

(22:28):
But I think it's probably verysmall because the other dynamic here
too is like, you think aboutthe dynamic we're coming from, from
campgrounds and hotels. Like,how does the hotel with a restaurant
feel about Bob Evans beingpromoted or something? Right. Like
just making something up. Iwant them to eat breakfast with me.
Why are you promoting theirrestaurant? So I don't know. Yeah,
I don't know.
Yeah, I think that's the greatthing that. Well, that's one of the

(22:51):
things that I've enjoyedmoving into the association world
versus the chamber. We're notnecessarily promoting specific businesses
as much as we're advocatingfor and fighting for an industry.
And we are all part of thehospitality industry. So our goal
at Hospitality Minnesota is toensure that there are policies that

(23:13):
support our industry and allowour industry to thrive. Whether you
are an independent campgroundon the most northern part of Minnesota
by lake of the woods, oryou're a hotel chain that's got locations
in all of our majormetropolitan areas in the state.
So advocating for an industryhelps eliminate that kind of infighting.

(23:39):
Or they're getting moreattention than we are, I will say,
when municipal issues pop up.So we just had a policy issue we
were fighting or a policyproposal we were advocating against
in the city of Minneapolis.And it was about a two year discussion.
It took a lot of our energyinternally from our government affairs

(24:02):
team and our board and our.Everybody was really engaged with
it. And we got a little bit ofheat from outstate. Like, why are
you so metro focused? You're astatewide association. And that's
a fair question. And theanswer in that case is because if
this, if this policy isallowed to pass here, it's coming
to you and it's coming tooutstate Minnesota. So it's kind

(24:24):
of like, which I don't want tosay fire, because that's a little
too close to home right nowwith what's going on. But it's like,
which tire is lowest on yourcar? We're going car camping. Which
tires lowest? That's the oneyou're going to fill up. Which issue
is the most pressing right nowthat we need to stop? And we joke

(24:45):
internally that it's likelegislative whack. A mole. Which
one are we going to hit rightnow and which one's going to provide
the greatest benefit for all.
So talk to us, talk us throughsome of the like I'm interested in
the economic shifts and someof the demographic changes that we've
gone through over the last fewyears. Right. And, and I think this

(25:06):
maybe applies to hotels alittle bit but obviously we're a
campground related show. Soanything you pull out specific to
that. Right. But just like somuch has changed as Scott talked
about. Right. With just notjust car camping but just the types
of people who would stay andsome of them are the same of course,
but the types of people whowould stay pre Covid to during COVID
to now after Covid and thenalso the economy changes, presidential

(25:29):
elections, all the things. Sowhat's the outlook of Minnesota look
like from your associationstandpoint? I know that's a big question.
That is a load. That's aloaded question. And oh gosh. So
from an economic standpoint.So if we look at the data I one of

(25:50):
the things and I wrote thisdown, Mark, is that you talked about
is that people are, theirbehaviors are changing and consumers
are weighing their options andthey're looking at the costs and
they're being very selective.And whether that's you're booking
a trip and you're going tocamp or you're going to go, you know,
or you're going to glamp oryou're going to car camp. What's
more economic. Right. And howfar are you willing to drive and

(26:13):
what's the cost of gas and allthat goes into that? I think consumer
behavior is certainly drivingit. But what we're seeing in the
numbers is that a lot of ourmembers are reporting up, but that
doesn't equate to being moreprofitable year over year. Revenues
are up, but they're notnecessarily up in us or the labor

(26:35):
costs or.
Now is that because of inflation?
It's because of inflation.It's because in Minnesota we have
really aggressive minimum wageinflators and minimum wage and we
all want to take care of ouremployees. But we're, we're also
unique in that, you know,we're one of, you know, seven states

(27:00):
without the tip credit. One ofseven or four states that doesn't
allow tip pooling. We've gotreally aggressive minimum wage laws
and so the, and, and we've gota labor shortage in the hospitality
industry, in our industry inthe state we employ about 350 or
there's about 350,000 jobs.And on any given day, we're about
15,000 employees short ofwhere we need to be.

(27:22):
Why do you think that? And Iknow we're lagging and so you're
paying more. Talking over me.We're lagged. I'm sorry, I just wanted
to preface it for the audienceto think that I wasn't interrupting
you weirdly and you weren'ttrying to interrupt me. Or maybe
you were because it's betterwhen you interrupt me and you talk.
But specifically related tothat, like, I'm curious, why do you
think that shortage existswith employees? Because we hear a

(27:45):
lot about layoffs that arehappening in different sectors. You
know, maybe mostly tech fornow, but we hear of a lot of people,
I think, who are looking forjobs and obviously there's a mismatch.
But why do you think thosevacancies exist when there are more
people looking for work now?
Yeah, I think in our industrywe saw a lot of people leave hospitality

(28:08):
during the pandemic and seekother opportunities, other industries.
I truly Brian that there is ahuge awareness gap on what it means
to have a job in thehospitality industry and how many
great options there are towork in our industry. One of the

(28:29):
things we are doing, I meanthis is a focus of our education
foundation here at HospitalityMinnesota. And so we're working with
some of our national partnerson all three segments, camping and
both restaurant and lodgingtoo. So in just working on workforce
training programs and we weresuccessful last legislative session

(28:54):
in securing funding to build afree online training program, customer
service training program foranyone in the hospitality industry
in the state. So if you are acampground owner and you want to
to offer free training to youremployees or free training to candidates
you're considering orpromoting from within, I mean, we're

(29:14):
doing everything that we canto try to create those opportunities,
cost effective opportunitiesfor employers to retain employees
and then within the industryreally closing that awareness gap
of what you, youropportunities there are. I mean,
if you want to be anaccountant, you can still do that

(29:35):
in the holiday industry. Youknow, if you want to be in marketing,
if you want to be a chef, ifyou want to run your own resort or
campground, there's all ofthese opportunities and we really
are trying to drive home thefact that it's a very low barrier
entry point to get into ourindustry. If you have that entrepreneurial
spirit and want to want to do that.

(29:57):
Go ahead Scott, like we'll seeyou later on Outwired. Scott's gotta
jump. But yeah, Angie, I'mcurious. Like, you know, we talk
about some of the guestpreferences and how those have changedHowdoyouseethatchanging?Andlike,
whatdoyou thinkpeoplearelookingforastheygocamping in 20,25in
Minnesota?Isitdifferent?Isitthesame? Is.

(30:25):
Yes, both. Right. In some ofour campgrounds in amenities. You
know, I think when you'rebeing more selective with how you
spend your money, it's. It's.Where can I get the most for what

(30:48):
I'm willing to spend and themost in terms of the overall experience
and convenience and, you know,some. I would call it comfort. But
it's your preference, like, ifyou, if you don't want to go glamping,
but you prefer to tent camp orwhatever. But. So I, I do think that
what we're seeing is just amore intent on what's. What's the

(31:11):
overall experience going to beand how much can we. How unique can
we make it?
So that's like, that's aconversation. Campground. Sorry,
I know we're just lagging. Iapologize. I'm just gonna. So. But,
like. And I want you to finishyour thought in a second, but just

(31:32):
so we don't have to lag backand forth, I'm just gonna finish
my sentence. So, like, it'svery interesting to me because if
you look at how, like, peopleare having that attitude of, you
know, I can only take maybeless vacations or stay less nights
or, or do you know, I'm beingmore. I'm willing to be more picky
because my money isn't goingas far as it used to or I have less

(31:54):
of it. That's something we'vetalked about, like Mark and I have
talked about frequently, aswell as the other guests of the show,
about how people, like, it'snot enough anymore to just set up
a campground with the samepatio sites and the same furniture
and the same pool and the sameminiature golf, and then they're
just all going to fill upanymore. And I feel like that's a
little bit about what you'retalking about, but is that what interests
me most is. You're right.Like, I mean, I know you know, you're

(32:17):
right, but like I'm saying, weconcur on the campground side. But,
like, how do you. How do you.Well, actually, you know what the
question I want to ask firstis, is that something that's impacting
hotels, too? Is it somethingwhere the. The guests are being more
picky about the hotels thatthey stay at because they want a

(32:38):
hotel they stay at to offer adifferent or better experience than
they Otherwise would have beenwilling to settle for.
I think it's true ofcampgrounds, resorts, hotels, and
even our restaurants. And ifyou think about how people live their
life right now, so especiallyin campgrounds, what are people looking
for? We can work fromanywhere, right? So somebody may

(33:01):
decide, I'm going to go spenda month in the woods, I'm going to
go immerse, I'm going to goforest bathe. But I still have to
go to work. So it's going tobe really important to me to have
WI fi and, you know, I don'tknow, maybe a comfortable backdrop
that your boss isn't going toknow you're in the forest. If you

(33:21):
have to do green screen.
You can flop in the middle ofthe forest while you're forest bathing.
It's so weird. That's such aweird term. I'm going to have to
get used to that.
I know. It took me a minutewhile you're talking, I was like,
oh, yeah, I've heard of that.So. But yeah, I think it's true.
We're seeing it everywhere.We're seeing it in restaurants, we're
seeing it in hotels, and Ithink it's, you know, we partner

(33:43):
with our national partners andthen our state partners through Explore
Minnesota are statewidetourism. And even I think, Mark,
it was you talking about theDMOs and the CVVs we're all seeing
consistently is that thebusinesses we represent and serve
and in the DMO's case,promote, they're having to get really

(34:06):
creative to draw people in. Toyour point, you don't just put up
your shingle and people fillyour park and then it just cycles
through. Those days, I thinkare gone. And it's how do you get
that edge? And it's fromeverything from how do you get that
edge with your employees? Howdo you get that edge with your guest?
And you know, it's, it'smaking it harder. So all of them,

(34:26):
all of our members, everyhospitality owner, operator in our
state and I would argue ournation is doing more with less for
less and having to evolveevery year, every quarter, every
season, it's got to bedifferent. And God help you if you
don't have a pickleball courtright now. Right? That's everybody's

(34:48):
go to it.
Well, so that's interesting.Like if you talk about and maybe
I just want to not interrogateand investigate journalists, you
or anything like that, but askyou, like maybe a question that you
have to think about for asecond before answering, and that's
like, if you look at, and Iknow everybody's preferences are
different. Everybody wantssomething different. There are luxury
travelers, there are budgettravelers, there are mid tier travelers.

(35:11):
There are people who wantpickleball courts. There are people
like me who bought pickleballshoes and realized they can't play
pickleball. There are allkinds. There are all kinds of people.
Right. And so recognizing thateverybody's opinion is different,
when you answer this question,if you were speaking to hotel owners,
campground, I mean you arespeaking to campground owners, but
those type of business owners,and they came to you and they said,

(35:33):
angie, I have a chance to doone thing. Like, I'm not even talking
about like renovations thatcost millions of dollars or adding
a water park or putting in arestaurant, but I have a chance to
do one thing that's differentand, and like not all doing the same
thing. Right. But like onething that's different that could
really have a chance to set meapart. What would you recommend,
Angie, from your data and yourexperience that I should focus on

(35:55):
in 2025?
Oh, my God, Brian, I told youit was hard. Yeah, you know, and
I don't know that I can comeup with an answer for you. There
is no one magic thing, I think.
No, I know that. I'm notimplying that it's a magic thing.
I guess I'm just looking foryour intuition of a starting point.

(36:18):
Not the only thing they needto do or the thing that will make
them successful. But where doI start if I have never had to focus
on experience before?
Yeah, no, that is, that is areally great question and it's probably
one that's going to rattlearound in my brain for the next three
weeks and I'm going to callyou up and go, I think I have a better

(36:38):
answer for you. But what I seeconsistently that sets my are more
successful members up,regardless of what segment is. It's
that intangible that it's thatexperience, that moment, that hospitality

(36:58):
that occurs between theemployee, the owner and the guest.
What is. And so it's thosepersonal touches that we're seeing.
So I'm thinking of a resortowner who owns several properties
along our North Shore. And thetraining that they put their employees

(37:19):
through and the mindset andthe expectation of interaction at
all times. You know, they baseit off that book, hospitality from
the heart. And all of theiremployees are trained every guest
interaction and they're doingreally well. And they're. No, they
don't have more amenities,better amenities than any other resort

(37:43):
on the North Shore. They'reall comparable, right? But it truly
is that moment, thatinteraction, that emotional response
that they get and give totheir guests that I truly think sets
them apart. And as I think howI spend my money as a consumer, you
know, if I go to twocampgrounds and they're exactly the

(38:06):
same, or I go to tworestaurants, and all things being
equal, I'm gonna go where Ifeel most welcome. I'm gonna go where
somebody remembers my name.I'm gonna. Or even takes the time
to learn my name if I've neverbeen there before. So I know that's
probably not as hard of ahitting answer as you wanted, Brian.
And listeners are probablyrolling their eyes and almost hear

(38:27):
it from here. But I just. Idon't think that it's any one thing
tangible, any item, any. It'snot better WI fi. It's not softer,
you know, sheets on the cots.It's not that anymore. I mean, it
used to be that way. When youthink about the hotel, I mean, 10
years ago, five years ago,even, you know, like, oh, come and

(38:47):
stay on our beds. We have thefluffiest beds. Or cut. You know,
our breakfast is the hottest,and our pancakes are the best. It's
not that anymore. People arebeing more selective, and consumers
are looking for thatexperience that makes them feel something.
I think.
I mean, I will say that I'mnot rolling my eyes, and if anybody
in the audience is rollingtheir eyes, then I think that they

(39:10):
should probably immediatelystop or get a better understanding
of what you're talking about.I think it was an excellent answer,
and we'll get Mark's opinion.I'm going to ask you the same question
in a second, Mark, so you canprepare for that. I know there's
no such thing as personaltouch in Wyoming because you guys
are too far apart, but for therest of the stuff, you can weigh
in, but, like. But I thinkyou're dead on. Right? Right. And
this is not like Outwired willbe the show where we kind of speak

(39:33):
frankly to people. So thisisn't one of those, you know, moments
where I want to do that onthis show, but, like, I think there
is a lot of that necessary.And to be clear, there are a lot
of people in our industry whodo this. Right. I'm not saying this
is a blanket problem or even amajority problem in our industry,
but I think it is a problem.Especially, like. I mean, even if
you look at some of the thingsthat your little rant group, Mark,

(39:54):
that I'm not even in thatpeople kind of complain about, right.
And not saying that theyaren't justified. There are certain
things, there are certainlythings that you should rant about
because some people are crazyand deserve to be ranted about, right?
But there's also the mindsetof like, this is hospitality. You
chose to own a campground. Youchose to show up every day and be

(40:14):
involved in an even moreintimate setting as a campground
than you are at a hotel with aone on one, either a couple or a
couple members of your staff.And so there is this need to kind
of go back and say, I need tofocus on hospitality. I need to make
sure that no matter which sideof the bed I woke up in the morning
and whether my coffee tastedgood or not or whatever, there's

(40:35):
a smile on my face when I talkto that guest. Because that is what's
going to. And it's hard. Like,it's hard. I wake up probably 50
of the time grumpy and I'mlike, I don't want to talk to anybody
for a couple hours. But like,that's why I'm not in hospitality.
Like, that's why I host a showthat I can turn off and then be grumpy

(40:56):
after it, right? But I don'tknow, like, I think that's a larger
conversation, right, that,that people just need to. And especially
now more than ever, we'll talkmore about this on not necessarily
a specific topic, but onoutwired. Just generally speaking
as a theme of a show. Like,you gotta understand this as a park
owner. Like, this is not, Imean, and Mark, you can correct me

(41:17):
if I'm wrong or just say like,I don't know, throw me under the
bus or whatever you want todo. But like, and this is probably
why we shouldn't. We aren'tbroadcasting the other show in your
group, right. It is like, Ijust think there's a need for some
of, some of these owners topay more attention to what is happening
out here. It's not since 2011,the economy has been going up. Inflation

(41:38):
has been mostly flat until thelast few years. Money has been cheap.
Interest has been, you know,basically low and free. And that
coincided with like really,2010, 11 when social media, Facebook
and all that started to reallypick up steam. And so since then
they have like, it has been aKevin Costner scenario where if you

(41:59):
build it, they will come andif not, you just throw a couple thousand
bucks at Facebook ads or postfor free on social media and they
will get there anyway. Butit's different now.
It's different now. And if youthink about it
Angie's gonna go. Okay, goahead, Angie, please.
Sorry. This lag is ridiculous.I'm sorry. If you think about it,

(42:23):
we talked earlier. They'redoing more with less and there's
a labor shortage. So it's moreimportant, important now than ever.
And I think it's harder nowthan ever because they're working
double shifts. I know a CEO ofa resort group goes to the resorts
on the weekends and stripsbeds because there's just not enough
people to get it all done. Andthat's a right through. If that's

(42:46):
not your job, probably, yeah.
And like, to be clear, I'm notsaying this is easy on a campground
owner. I'm not suggesting.It's just, okay, let's go to chat
GPT and figure out a plan andthen everything will be fine. And
I'll just put on a smile likeit's hard. Like harder than I can
possibly imagine because I'mnot, I'm not brave enough to own
a campground for that veryreason. But I think it just, it has

(43:09):
to be done. Mark, to you.
Yeah, so, so that was areally, it's a really good question.
I'll go back to my thoughtsas, as Angie was struggling with
it because that was a goodquestion. I always go back to the
customer. I always go back towho, who we're serving. And so my
immediate reaction aboutwhat's that magic bullet or what's
that one thing you can do? Theanswer is it's going to vary. It

(43:31):
depends upon your location,your audience, who your guests are.
Right. So, so that'schallenging. And so the way you do
that, the way I'd recommendsomebody to do that, is you simply
go to your Google reviews andyou take an honest look at what people
say about your park, what theylike about it, what brings them there,
and that type of stuff. And ifyou don't have enough Google reviews,
just search your competitorsin your area and read their Google

(43:51):
reviews and do that exerciseto understand why people come to
your area, how long they liketo stay, what they don't want to
do around your area. And youmay get glimmers of information from
that exercise that kind oftells you, huh, there's something
here, here, Right. So youmentioned I'm in Wyoming. Right.
So I live in Wyoming. There's500,000 people in the entire state.

(44:13):
Like there is an RV park thatwas just built not too far off the
interstate, about 30 milesfrom my house. And that park has
remained mostly empty. Andthat's because they're actually marketing
themselves as a destination RVresort. When I look at it, they're
in the middle of nowhere. Theyliterally should call themselves
Middle of nowhere RV Resort.That should be their tagline. That's

(44:34):
how they should marketthemselves. Because people would.
It would catch their interest,number one. And they're like, heck,
I want to go stay in themiddle of nowhere. Right? So the
point being is understandingwhy people are going by your place,
why they're coming throughyour area and why they're staying
there. That's. That's reallythe answer to your question, Brian.
And it goes back to what Ikind of led with here. It's a different

(44:54):
year because we're back tonormal with air quotes around it.
And that normal means you haveto market. And the only way you can
market. It's the basic tenetof marketing, is you have to understand
what your customer wants andprovide it to them. Right.
And this is, this isinteresting to me, right, because
this is a push and pull thatwe're actually dealing with right
now at our agency. Like, whenyou, when you see what. And will

(45:16):
also die. Like, I feel likeeverything I'm saying here is like,
watch out. Wired later. Butlike, like it's going to be a longer
show and it's meant to gearedtoward frank conversations. Right.
Of the data and things with meand Scott and Greg. But like, that's
part of the push and pull thatwe're dealing with at our agency
now is like, because I'm sogood at, you know, AI, for example,
like, we want to do more forour clients without charging them,

(45:39):
typically what a, you know,like what you're talking about an
audience style guide or anideal customer profile or focus group.
Market research wouldtraditionally cost tens of thousands
of dollars to perform for asmall business. It just, that's not
something that's ever been inreach for all but the biggest huge
groups who own RV resorts. Butnow it is, if you know how to do

(46:00):
it correctly. And it doesn'tmean it's free. It doesn't mean you
can just go to chat GBT rightnow, log in and produce that. But
I know how to do that now. Andso we have 300 and some people who
are banging down my door like,I need this tomorrow. But you're
right, like, now this stuff ismore within reach, though. And you've
got to figure out who is myideal customer, why are they coming
to me, what do they want? Andthen not only that, once I understand

(46:23):
that Then like in some ways,focus group market research, which
you can do through AI.Surprisingly, even though it's fake,
Scott Barr has said it's about95% accurate to the data that he's
pulling from Cold Calling.Because AI knows the whole Internet.
If you're prompting it theright way and then taking that and
creating an audience styleguide to basically say, this is how
I should talk to this specifictype of people who are going to come

(46:46):
to my resort. What are thewords they want to hear? What are
the sentences, what's thelength, what's the readability? What
do they want to see in mywebsite copy and my Google Ads and
my Facebook and social media?There's a real science behind it.
And, and so that's the pushand pull that we're dealing with,
Mark. And I think a lot ofowners do too, because if you're
not me, and I hope nobody is,although on the other hand, I really

(47:07):
been trying to clone myselffor a few years, so that's another
push and pull there. But so ifyou're not me or really obsessed
with AI and know this stuff,then you still think like, there's
no way I can ever get thatstuff done because I don't know how
to do it. And even if I try togo hire somebody, it's super expensive
and I'm never going to be ableto afford it. And so they don't even

(47:28):
try.
Right. And when you look atwhere we're going over the next few
years, I mean, you, you,you're way ahead of everybody on
the AI stuff. And I'd like to,to, I like to say that I'm trying
to grab your coattails and,and ride along. And the reality is,
is that the, thetransformations that are coming to
the macro environment over thenext year to two years will be fundamentally

(47:51):
transformative to the entireexperience people have both in their
regular lives and the way theytravel. So this is actually a really
important conversation foranybody who's paying attention to
this to understand that yourcurrent guests and their current
expectations with, with yourproperty are going to change drastically
over the next year to twoyears, period. It doesn't matter
where you're at in the UnitedStates, the way people interact with

(48:12):
you is going to change,period. So it really behooves owners
to get in touch with theircustomers that they currently have
and start understanding howthat that changes and adapts. Because
it's here. It's not coming.It's here. In the last week, the
changes in implementationswith an AI models and Access to it.

(48:33):
It's so huge. Like you can'teven overstate. You can't overstate.
No, like I didn't even showyou, Mark. And I don't want to interrupt
you, I want to finish yourthought but like I literally last
night created a thirtythousand dollar research report with
a prompt and an AI thatthought for 37 minutes about it.
Yeah.
So using the new researchtools with chat, I mean it's, it's

(48:54):
unbelievable. And, and to thatpoint there, there's long, there's
bigger ramifications of that.That right there. When you think
about mid level people thatare doing legal work, CPA work, bookkeeping
research, and you talk aboutall those mid level people that make
good livings, all of a suddensomebody can do a 37 minute research

(49:14):
report off of AI tool. Today,right now. Today, last night, right,
Brian, last night you did it.That replaces what you would have
paid somebody 8, 10, $15,000to do that. The, the snowball effect
of that, not just on ourindustry but as on the, the global
macro environment for workingis it's something that there's several

(49:36):
rabbit holes you can go downif you try to project out. So my
attitude right now is I'm notgoing to try to project out too far.
I'm rather going to come incloser to stuff that I can kind of
see, understand and touch witha, with the idea that what I think
is going to happen in a yearfrom now is like, I don't know, like,
right. I can't guess what'shappening here. No, I guess what's
going to happen the nextmonth, two months, three months.

(49:58):
And so my advice to folks thatrun campgrounds is do the same thing.
You're, you're gettingbookings now. But one of the things
that everybody, I can say thisuniversally across the campground
RV park industry, the onething nobody's doing right now with
their bookings is asking thosepeople why they booked. And I would
encourage people to startasking that question the second email
that goes out after theirthank you for booking email. Hey,

(50:20):
you know, I got a funnyquestion for you. Why are you coming
to stay at our park? And justlet them respond to you via email
and tell you why they'recoming to your park and just start
continuously asking thatquestion of people as they book the
information that you're goingto learn and you're actually going
to see it change over time astheir responses and reasons for coming
to your park change. You'regoing to start learning and from
that then you can startpredicting what's going to happen

(50:41):
next week, next month, andpotentially a year down the road.
It's all data collection. Andnow like, we've been, some of us
have been collecting data andlike Google Analytics and Google
Ads and things for years andwe haven't ever had time as a human
being to look at it. Butwhether it's that or aggregating
all the email responses tothat question, now you can use AI
to actually do all this stuffand have the data mean something
to you. But that, but it'sinteresting. It's more of that same

(51:03):
push and pull though, right?Because Angie was talking about there's
a huge amount of laborshortage in the hospitality industry
and the CEO is going andchanging the bed because he can't
find any other workers. Sothat, but that push and pull is going
to be there to. Now. Well,okay, now the CEO can not yet automate
the making of the bed,although that's probably coming in
a few years. Really like twoor three years, maybe less. But now

(51:27):
he can automate a bunch of hisother tasks to like, to the point
of like, he still is not goingto have a smile on his face when
he's changing the bed, butmaybe he can shift some of his other
employees around that would bedoing other things so they can make
the bet. Like, so it's, it'san interesting push and pull dynamic
because, and it's all hittingat once because there's going to
be these owners who want tonot change the bed, but there's also

(51:50):
going to be a lot of workerswho are like, this stuff is going
to put us out of jobs. And Ithink both people are not evil, but
both people are going to lookat the other people like they might
be.
Yes. Yeah, exactly. And Imean, that's where you start going
down the rabbit hole of what'scoming. Like, Brian, you were early
on this. It was, I mean, what,two and a half, three years ago,

(52:12):
you were really the first oneto start speaking about AI. And if
you remember, I was like, gofor it. Like, you're, you're way
ahead of it and I love whereyou've gone with it. But as I've
started to play catch up withthis, like, again, there's, there's
two models. I was telling mywife last night, we're talking about
this. So just the insight. Myson is 12 years old, he's homeschooled,
and six months ago, Icompletely changed his entire schooling.

(52:33):
I basically said, AI is here.He needs to become so adept at AI.
Right now at 12, that it's noteven funny. Because if we don't do
that, he's screwed. Like,people who don't know what's coming.
What's coming, Will. Kids inschool today going through a normal
education are completely andtotally wasting their time in class.
They are 100 screwed.

(52:55):
And so that we're talking,I'll share what we have as a dinner
conversation. I was looking ather, I said, honey, this isn't just
Internet. This isn't justemail. This is the Industrial Revolution.
This is the dust bowl, whenpeople are going from the farms to
the factories. And that thisis a moment, inflection point in

(53:15):
history and time whereeverything we know changes. And the
reality is I don't know whatthe future holds and I don't know
how this thing plays out. ButI kind of, to put it in an analogy,
I simply said, you know, weeither have Star wars or we have
Star Trek. And, you know, StarTrek, everybody's friendly in the
research. In Star wars, yougot the good guys and the bad guys
and they're fighting it out.
You have Wookies. What aboutthe Wookies?

(53:37):
Yeah, the Wookies are cool,right? I like the Ewoks, though.
We actually just watch it overthe weekend. But the point being
is that when you back it downto the hospitality business in our
industry, the way things aregoing to change over the next year
to two years, if I, and I'madvising my park owners to do this,
you need to be very adaptable.You need to be very transparent and
communicative with yourguests. Because that, to Angie's

(54:00):
point, about, you know,engaging with your guests and understanding
and give them a personal.That's what carries you through this.
If they don't know you, ifyou're just a faceless, nameless
provider, you're gone. If theyknow you and trust you, that's when
they're going to come back toyou. So I guess in that whole conversation
we went AI technocracy, goinginto a dark place or a good place,
but in the end it comes backto the personal interaction.

(54:22):
Yeah, that's. That's what it'salways going to be like. And, and
to be clear, like, I mean,this is part of what we're. There
are going to be people whodon't like me and Scott and Greg
for what we're going to talkabout on Outwired, but, like, you
have to keep it in context andunderstand that what we're saying
and what comes out of ourmouth, like just now Where I said,
like, where we both said thateducation and what you're going through
in school doesn't matter, has,like, there's a deeper explanation

(54:45):
behind that. Like, of courseyou still need to know how to add
and. Right. And you need toknow how to write. And so school
is still important. But whenyou get past the basics and fundamentals
of those things, like, whatare you still memorizing stuff for?
Why it doesn't even make anysense. Why are you still learning
how to sew, for example?Unless it's like, unless it's your

(55:07):
hobby and you love doing it.Why? I'm just making something up.
Right. Obviously there's stilla need to sew, but so that those
things, like, they're, they'rebig and they're impactful and like,
a lot of people are asleepand. And I think that I don't know
how to. I don't know how toget them to wake up.

(55:27):
You can't.
I just had this.
I'm sorry, go ahead, Angie.
I just had this conversationwith somebody yesterday about the
way we teach, the way kidslearn. We're teaching them to learn
in an antiquated way. Theyneed to learn, to your point, science
and math and all of that. Butit needs to be framed in the context
of something that's reallyrelevant to how the world operates

(55:50):
today. And so it's taking thatexperiential learning to a whole
new level. And whether that'sa career in hospitality or, you know,
some historical lesson, wejust need to let them learn it in
a way that matter, that'sapplicable in the real world.
Right. And this is like, thisis what, you know, we've been talking
about this, like, at our, atour company, like, how do we adapt

(56:12):
this? Right. And then you alsohear the people on YouTube, mostly
in my space, in the AI techspace, who are paying attention to
this stuff, but you'll hearthem say, like, I don't know, what.
What are these kids supposedto learn? What are they, what are
they supposed to educatethemselves for? What are they going
to college for? Nobody knows.Yes, you do know. The problem is,
is that you yourself,including me, when I went to school,

(56:33):
were never taught how tofigure it out. And the answer is,
is if you go back to. We, andwe had this discussion at our company,
we're going to retraineverybody who works at our company
and every new hire, and we'regoing to teach them like the ancient
Romans did. And if you lookback at how the ancient Romans did,
there was two types ofmethodologies to teach people there.
The slave in ancient Romewould learn a skill. And that's how

(56:56):
western education was formed.Not just in the United States. How
Western education was formed,generally speaking, because you needed
to get people off the farm andinto the factory and into the assembly
line. And nobody sane wantedto leave their nice little happy
farm with all their cows andgreen space to go into a factory
floor and breathe in all thedust and stuff and work on an assembly
line. And so we created schoolto sit in neat little rows and to

(57:20):
raise your hand and say, yes Iam, and do things exactly the way
you were told. Because whenyou got out of school, you had to
go to the factory and therewas no room for error back in 1910
to do it the way you thoughtit should be done. And that has never
changed in the last hundredplus years. Whereas if you were a
free person in Rome, you weretaught how to teach yourself, you

(57:42):
were taught critical thinkingbecause the government of Rome and
you had no clue what you weregoing to do in your life. So the
hope was, is to teach you howto teach yourself, to teach you how
to learn so that when you gotout of school, you would figure it
out. And if you decided to bea blacksmith, the hope was you would
decide to be something thatwould benefit all of Roman society.

(58:03):
But when you figured out whatyou wanted to do, you had the skills
to teach yourself to become ablacksmith. But we don't have that
now. And that's the two mostimportant things to teach your kids
right now. Critical thinkingso that you understand how to learn
the new things, ask the rightquestions, figure it out, and communication.
If you have those two things,you can do anything you want.

(58:26):
Agree? Yeah, that's, that's,that's really well, really well put,
Brian. And I completely agreewith you on that. And I would, I
would argue a little bit thatwe actually do have that tool a little
bit if you're a free thinkerenough. It's like when I mentioned
that we changed my son'seducation, we're leaning upon videos
on YouTube so we're gettinghim to people who are discussing

(58:47):
stuff like this at that leveland then also doing tutorials and
everything else. So we're,we're kind of going to that route
where, you know, for, I'llgive you a. For example, last week
I sent him a video and it wasan interview as an hour and 20 minute
interview of a 17 year old kidwho built an app and he's making
a million bucks a month andthe reason I shared it wasn't so
much that he built an app orhe made a million dollars a month,

(59:08):
but he was sharing his thoughtprocesses, his procedures, the way
he looked at the world. Andso, you know, the hope is, is that
teaching my son the way thisperson who's at a young age, succeeded,
thinks about the world, thathe would glean that. Wait a second.
What I'm learning in schooldoesn't fit. I actually need to think
a little bit outside the box.
Yeah. And they just. And it'snot that people are incapable of

(59:29):
this. Like, I'm not suggestingsome people are worse than others.
It's just that you were nevertaught this in school. So how are
you supposed to teach it toyour kids? How are you supposed to
learn how to teach it to yourkids? Right. Like, I think a lot.
There are, of course, thereare some people, maybe like 5% in
the whole world who areincapable of thinking this way, But
I think 95% of people are.They just have no idea where to start

(59:50):
or how to do it. And that'swhy you see so many people come out
of college who learn one thingin college and train themselves on
new computer programs andthings, but aren't really learning,
if that makes sense. And it'snot by their own fault. Sometimes
it is. But, like, there'sthings I don't want to learn how
to do. Right. I don't want toclean my house. But. But just as

(01:00:10):
an example. Right. I justdon't think they know how.
Yeah.
So I don't know how to solvethat problem.
I think time, time, time andoutcome. You know, the way the conversation
ended last night with my wifethat I shared with you all is, you
know, we can. We can't answerit on our own. All we can do is control
ourselves in our own actions.Right. We can. That's all we have
control over. And in the end,this is going to go wherever it goes

(01:00:34):
and how fast it goes. But, youknow, I mentioned to her, I said,
this is actually a moment intime here where there's real opportunity
for somebody. People. Like,there's real opportunity here because
there's a. A giant gap rightnow between those who know and those
who don't. And the amount ofpeople who know is very, very small.
And the people that don't aredown here. The people that. And when
I say down here, I'm notsaying better or worse. I'm just

(01:00:55):
saying different scales.
How dare you, Mark.
Yeah, but the people thatdon't know have the capital and the
ability, the willingness topay somebody who does to help them
out. So there's a realarbitrage there. And I would just
encourage people to reallydive deep on this content because
it's going to change the worldand it's actually doing it right
now.
And that's the thing is thatthen it goes back to this full circle
problem that we're in. And Iknow we need to wrap up in a second

(01:01:16):
especially because I haveanother show in 58 minutes now. But
like it goes back to thiswhole existential problem of like
I'm changing the sheets in thehotel. As a CEO, how do you expect
me to have time to keep upwith this stuff and learn it? And
I don't have an answer forthat. I really truly don't. And I
have empathy for it and I'mnot suggesting like it's just as
easy as it just came out of mymouth to go do but like go to chat

(01:01:40):
GPT. I mean if you like forone, go to chat GPT. If you haven't
been on ChatGPT, I'll get downon my knees and beg you go to chat
GPT, but go to chat GPT,figure out what it is and say, hey,
I'm a busy CEO of ahospitality company and I can't find
enough workers to change mysheets. One, how do I solve that
problem? And I'm notsuggesting there's an easy answer

(01:02:02):
there, but at least there's astarting process. And he probably
already knows, right, as theCEO. But then two is like I want
to learn how to prepare mybusiness for the future. And to do
that I know I need to learnhow to critical think and teach myself
new skills but like I have notime. It's like it's a struggle.

(01:02:22):
I'm going, I'm working twojobs or I'm coming home and taking
care of my kids or cookingdinner for my spouse or running the
kids to hockey practice ordealing with the guest that's complaining
of the WI fi doesn't work orwhatever. Right? How do I do it and
see what it says? It's notgoing to be a magic bullet, but it's

(01:02:42):
going to have a pretty goodanswer for you if you ask it the
right question. And that's thebest I think we can do for now. Right?
Sound advice.
It's been a good show, Brian.
Yeah, I don't know likeapparently there's a number in my
top of my screen that likenobody really belief like left off
when we started talking aboutcontroversial things but if you're

(01:03:03):
interested in thosecontroversial topics. Outwired. Our
new podcast with myself, ScottBarr and Greg emmert starts in 46
minutes and 45 seconds. Wow,my math was so good at the counter
there. And, and we're going tobe talking about things like we're
going to dive deep into AI,into operator, into all the techy

(01:03:24):
geeky things, but we're alsogoing to talk about data and all
kinds of things. We might havea little bit of whiskey just to dull
the pain for everybodyinvolved in it, but it's going to
be an interesting show. I'minterested in it. We'll see how many
people hate me after week oneand if I get canceled or not. So.
But thank you guys for joiningus. I appreciate it as always. Mark,
where can they find out moreabout campground views right now?

(01:03:47):
Oh yeah, your virtual tours.Like where can they find out more
about.
Oh, where can they find out?They can find it on campgroundviews.com
in fact, if you own acampground or RV park, make sure
you've claimed your listingover there. We're getting a lot of
traffic now. You really wantto make sure that you're properly
listed over there. It's freeto update that information. So go
over there, post pictures,claim your listing, make sure you're
good.

(01:04:07):
Awesome. Thanks for being hereas always, Mark and Angie, where
can they find out about ifthey're in Minnesota or generally
speaking, if they just want tofollow the trends, how do they find
out more about hospitalityMinnesota, joining, becoming a member,
that kind of stuff?
You can find us athospitalitymn.com and you'll find
all of our advocacy issues,all of our map of all of our properties

(01:04:28):
across the state and we'd loveto answer and take calls from anyone.
Awesome. Well, thank you somuch for being here, Angie. I really
appreciate your time and thefew minutes that you went over with
us and for tolerating ourweird discussion at the end there.
F ire side