MC Fireside Chats - January 22nd, 2025

The January 22, 2025, episode of MC Fireside Chats, hosted by Brian Searl, brought together a panel of experts to discuss the RV industry, glamping, and outdoor hospitality trends. Panelists included Eleonore Hamm, President of RVDA Canada; Shane Devenish, Executive Director of the Canadian Recreational Vehicle Association; Angele Miller, Co-Founder of Creekside RNR Glamping; and Greg Emmert, Consultant at Camp Strategy. The conversation delved into consumer trends, industry challenges, and the need for better storytelling in the RV and glamping sectors. Brian introduced the revamped show format and engaged panelists in a light-hearted discussion about the new intro. The group shared their respective roles and perspectives within their industries. Eleonore and Shane highlighted their focus on advocacy, education, and industry collaboration in Canada, while Angele shared her experiences running a glamping resort, emphasizing the importance of meeting rising consumer expectations. Angele discussed the increasing consumer demand for luxury amenities such as saunas and hot tubs at glamping resorts. She noted that guests are seeking highly personalized experiences, making it crucial for operators to continuously innovate. Brian and Greg agreed, noting that the RV park and campground industry is experiencing a similar shift toward high-end, customized experiences. Greg emphasized the importance of campground owners identifying their “why” to stand out in a competitive market. He encouraged operators to focus on unique offerings that resonate with guests. Angele shared how her resort builds customer loyalty by personalizing experiences, such as remembering special occasions, which Greg praised as a model for other operators. Eleonore and Shane spoke about their advocacy efforts in Canada, particularly in light of challenges like pending legislation and economic uncertainty. They highlighted the close collaboration among Canadian RV associations, contrasting it with the larger, more segmented U.S. market. The panel discussed economic concerns, including inflation, exchange rates, and potential tariffs, and their impact on consumer confidence. Shane expressed cautious optimism about RV sales in 2025, while Eleonore noted that affordability remains a key message in their marketing efforts. Angele shared insights on how economic pressures are affecting the glamping industry, with some operators scaling back or closing for the winter. The conversation turned to managing consumer expectations and addressing negative feedback. Shane and Greg discussed the challenges of dealing with complaints, emphasizing the need for empathy and perspective. Angele added that proactive communication and attention to detail can help mitigate dissatisfaction and build loyalty. The group explored trends in RV manufacturing, with Shane noting that consumer demand drives product offerings. Eleonore pointed out that while fifth wheels showed growth in 2024, manufacturers respond to a variety of consumer preferences, from lightweight towables to larger, more luxurious units. Greg drew parallels between the RV industry’s challenges and Angele’s approach to affordability in glamping. While RV manufacturers face logistical and economic hurdles in building affordable units, Angele shared how her resort strikes a balance between luxury and cost-effectiveness to remain competitive. Brian raised concerns about how the RV industry’s positive stories, beyond shipment numbers, are underrepresented in campground-related media. Eleonore and Shane agreed on the need for broader communication, with Eleonore suggesting better integration of resources to share meaningful industry insights. The panelists expressed cautious optimism for 2025. Shane predicted stable demand for RVs, while Angele anticipated steady interest in outdoor experiences, albeit with shifts in consumer spending. The group agreed that adaptability and a focus on consumer needs would be critical for...

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Sa everybody to anotherepisode of MC Fireside Chat. My name

(00:49):
is Brian Searl wit InsiderPerks. Super excited to be here with
you for our first episode. Andour new intro, by the way, which
is, I think maybe. Did youguys like that?
I did, yes.
That was nice.
Very nice. Very, very nice.
Yeah, I like that it's allpumped up. And now, like, now we
have, like, much higherexpectations since we have a better
intro. So I hope you guys candeliver, because I for sure cannot.

(01:12):
But anyway, yes, we're superexcited to be here. This is kind
of like our fourth week. Like,we have people who were here last
year, Eleonore and Shane. Philis going to be a regular guest on
the show, too. And Angele wason our glamping episode last year,
so. And. And Greg was on. Youwere on the campground owners episode,
right, Greg?
Yep. Correct.
Yep. So we've kind of shuffledthings around to give kind of a different
perspective here, but I thinkour intention for the show is RV

(01:35):
industry, but also a littlebit of outdoor rec and some other
things that we might talkabout and just kind of having good
conversations, but generallyaround kind of that theme that is
on my phone somewhere that Ihaven't memorized yet. But by week
22, I should have it fairlydown mediocre wise to where we have.
But the idea is to have atopic right every time we're coming

(01:56):
together. And so I know we,you know, RV industry was probably,
like the closest thing we hadto a topic when we talked before.
But I think. I think we justwant to talk a little bit more about
outdoor rec and blend some ofthat stuff in and tie all that together.
So we'll have some specialguests from time to time. Normally
we have two. They both backedout on us this week and left us all
alone. So we just. We're goingto talk about the. Well, whatever

(02:18):
we want to talk about. We gottwo people in here from Eleonore
and Shane. You want tointroduce yourself? It's 2025. Introduce
yourself from the RV industry.
Ladies first.
Okay, thank you. I'm EleonoreHamm. I'm president of the Recreation
Vehicle Dealers Association ofCanada, RVDA for short. We represent
RV dealers in Canada. And, youknow, our goals and strategies, you

(02:39):
know, revolve around advocacy,which is an interesting topic these
these days, and education andmember services.
Awesome. Thank you for beinghere, Eleonore, as always. Shane.
Yep. My name is ShaneDevenish. I'm with the Canadian Recreational
Vehicle Association up here inBurlington, Ontario, and we work

(02:59):
closely with Eleonore and hergroup on. It seems like a lot of
advocacy these days as well.So great to be part of it again.
We'll talk about that maybe ina little bit. Right. Some of the
advocacy work that you guyshave been doing, because in Canada,
it's been kind of a mess withwhatever Trudeau is doing. Right.

(03:20):
And so that might be aninteresting perhaps conversation
to have because I know there'ssome pending legislation that relates
to the industry. Right. Thatmay or may not be impacted. But anyway,
we can talk about that. And Iwant to hear about, like, the shows
and how things are going. Ifyou've heard anything from the state's
counterparts, maybe a littlebit about how you're. Like, your
show is still a couple monthsaway, right, Shane? Yeah, but, like,

(03:40):
any early hints on how thatmight be going? But, Greg and Angele,
do you want to introduceyourselves briefly?
Angele, feel free. Take it.
All right, so, hi, everyone.My name is AngelMillerandI'm one
one of the co-founders forCreekside RNR WeareaglampingoutdoorresortinNewBrunswick,andwealsofocusonalotofoutdooractivities.

(04:06):
NordicSpa,acenterforyoga,meditation.Andit'sapleasureformeto joinallofyouheretoday.
Awesome. Thanks for beinghere. Angele and Greg.
Yeah. Last and certainlyleast, Greg Emmert from Camp Strategy.
We are a consulting group herein the States. I'm the only one on

(04:27):
the show Stateside, so that's.That's interesting. Please don't,
you know, do not blame me forwhat happens down here. I am but
one person, you know, I havevery little control. And I will say
this. Love the new intro. It'sa good thing the camera's off when
that's on because I'm like,I'm popping and locking in the background.
And I won't do that on thescreen because some people may find
it offensive or scary. But Iam very happy to be here. Thanks

(04:50):
for having me back on. Brian.
Yeah, it's good to see thatyou're alive from your flat tire
incident yesterday.
Yeah, that was fun time hit on.
The side of the road orsomething. So, yeah, glad to have
you here. So I think, like,we're going to have to find a cadence
with each other here. Right.And so, like, my vision here was
there. There are so many. Youguys have heard me talk about this
on multiple shows before,right? There are so many things between

(05:12):
the RV industry and glampingand campground ownership and consulting
that overlap with each other.They all impact everything that we
all do. And Shane, you knowthat better than anybody being the
former executive director ofCCRV A now. Right. Like, you know
how closely related thesethings are. Maybe more so in. In
Canada because everybody workstogether and is nice to each other

(05:35):
up here. Not that that doesn'thappen in the United States, but
perhaps not as the industries,like, aren't as close. Would you
agree with that, Eleonore?Like that. Just not that they're.
They disagree with each other.Rvda, US and Arvik, for example,
or ovai, whatever their nameis now. Sorry, it'll take me years
to get.
Used to that too.

(05:55):
But they're like. You're moreclosely intertwined up here and interlocked,
aren't you?
Well, I would say, I mean,because we sit on each other's respective
boards or our guests at eachother's boards. You know, I attend
Shane's meetings. I attendCCRVAs. We all attend go RVing. You
know, the industry is. Isobviously smaller than what it is

(06:16):
in the United States. And the.The different. The kind of. The four
core associations do work veryclosely together. You know, I can't
really comment on what'shappening in the U.S. i mean, I know
that RBDA and RBIA work. Workwell, work closely together. I. I
know they have conversationswith Ojai, but, you know, I don't
know if. If they have thesame. Like, I really can't comment

(06:38):
on whether they have.
Yeah, yeah. I'm not sayingthey have a bad relationship. I'm
just saying it's like, it'smore close because of what you just
said. Right. It's just more.It's different up here, I guess.
Is the. Not worse or better,just different. So. So I mean, that's
kind of my vision. Right. AndI want to see how this kind of plays
out. But, like, obviously, youknow, glamping is. Has a big role
to play with outdoor rec andconsumer behavior. And we know there's

(07:01):
a lot of crossover betweenpeople who try glamping for the first
time or maybe, you know, havecome from the RV side or want to
go to the RV side. We knowthat there's lots of, you know, people
that Greg deals with from aconsulting standpoint. Again, campgrounds
that have clamping, obviously,they're RV sites. We know that. We
don't need to explain that,but. So I just think there's some

(07:23):
good conversations that we canhave as we flesh that out that will
require me to do perhaps somemore study on what my actual vision
was. That chat GBT came upwith seven months ago that I don't
remember, but that's generallyspeaking what it is. So where do
we want to start? Like, Ithink the RV industry is, is in,
is important. We talked aboutsome of those things that we can
talk about and cover. Is thereanything Greg or Angele on your minds

(07:48):
that you've seen come acrossyour desk that's kind of important
that you think we should talkabout first in glamping or campgrounds?
You know, if I go on my sidejust to share a little bit about
what I'm kind of seeing nowfor, for trends and what people are
looking for into glamping toois because the industry is, is growing

(08:11):
and it's booming and it'sreally like, you know, a lot of people
love spending a lot of timeoutdoor and are looking for those
experiences more and more.Like glamping has to offer is they're
also looking for moreconsistency. And I'm finding that
the expectations are a littlebit more elevated than it was about,

(08:34):
you know, let's say four yearsago when we got started, you know,
when we got started, peoplewere just. Glamping was a new kind
of type of beginning industryfor us anyway in our region. And
people were just excited toget outdoor and experience, you know,
being in your own glampingunit and kind of have the elevated

(08:56):
camping experience where, youknow, they come and it's kind of
a resort type amenities, butthey still can get to barbecue and
lay in a hammock and do all ofwhat you get to do when you go camping.
But now what I'm finding ispeople's expectations on the level
of experience is so much morethan what it was four years ago.

(09:19):
And now they're asking. Theykind of have a list of requirements
that they're asking when theycall. So either it's like a hot tub
or it's a sauna. Now it's thesauna. You know, we have so many
calls where people are notjust asking for a barbecue, they're
asking for a sauna and, youknow, private hot tubs. So I find

(09:39):
that's really, you know,something important to talk about
because it is, you know,something that a lot of people like
us glamping owners, we alwayscontinuously have to innovate. I
keep thinking about how toelevate that experience and, you
know, kind of start keeping onmeeting these demands from the consumers.

(10:02):
And one of the question we askourselves too is when, when does
that end, that cap of whatyou're going to be offering in a
glamping type of experience?
Yeah, I think it's reallyinteresting and that's actually a
really good place to startbecause I think that that lends itself,
well, what you just said to acrossover between our two industries.

(10:23):
Right. We've seen, and I'msure Greg would agree with me, we've
seen a trend towards moreluxury picky. I want the best experience
type stuff in the RV parkspace too. And my camera is still
flickering. That's fun. Butanyway, it'll make me look better
the less frame rates I'm oncamera. So we'll figure that out

(10:46):
next week in the studio. Butlike I, I think we've, we've done
some studies with this, withScott Barr too, who, if you don't
know, does. The North AmericanCamping report for KOA also helps
us produce our two monthlyreports that we're going to put out
where I think we're going toresume them in February. We just
took a month off for Januaryfor the holidays. But we've done
a lot of data research intothe fact that, you know, now people

(11:09):
are looking for more like bestcampground near. They're looking
for more experiential typethings that actually are difference
makers. And, and part of thatis a relation to the economy, we
think in that, you know,you're maybe camping less nights
or glamping less nights. Youmay be taking, you know, one vacation

(11:31):
or two vacation instead ofthree or four and you have the ability
to be a little bit more pickywith what you're choosing and like
you want that one vacation ifthat's the only one you're going
to take all year to be reallyspecial. So you take longer and maybe
the booking window changes andyou do more research and you call
and ask more questions abouthot tubs and saunas and rv, you know,

(11:54):
park amenities and things likethat. Because you're like, you should
have a right, right to, tohave your dollars go to something
really exceptional. And Ithink that's what we've been counseling
our clients on too. And thenI'll shut up because I've probably
been talking for too long.People are, might tune out. So I
think we've been counselingour clients on that too, that it's

(12:15):
just, it's a different economyand a different market heading into
2025. I'm comfortable that ourindustry as a whole will be just
fine. But also it's not goingto be a Kevin Costner bill that they
will come moment anymore likeit was for the glamping industry
a couple years ago. And reallythe same thing with camping over
the COVID years. 2021 and2022. It's going to be a situation

(12:37):
where you really have to proveyour worth. You have to do your marketing,
you have to show why you'redifferent. It's not enough to have
a swimming pool and miniaturegolf course anymore. Why like everybody
has a swimming pool within,like all the hotels do, all the campgrounds
do. You've got to havesomething that sets you apart. It
doesn't have to be a milliondollar water park, but it's got to
be something. Would you agree, Greg?
Absolutely. Yeah, man. Youknow, you're, you are preaching the

(13:01):
same message that I try toget, get our clients on board with.
It's, it's about driving yourmarketing and driving the guest experience
from, from your. Why, youknow, why do you exist and why is
not to make money. Why is ityou need a philosophical and aspirational
approach to your business thatthen you communicate to those guests?

(13:21):
That's the type of thing thatcreates a connection, a bond between
your guest and your place,your guest and your staff, your guest
in you. Because you're sellingyour park, you're selling your experience,
but especially as a hands onowner operator man, you're selling
you. I felt like a celebrityin my park when I owned it. And there
were plenty of days that Ididn't want that. I wanted to just
crawl under a rock and go diga hole, fix a water leak or something.

(13:44):
But you got to embrace that.You have to dive into that. Because
if you don't have thatuniqueness, just what exactly what
you're discussing, Brian, ifyou don't have that, why are they
coming? Every park I go to hasa, if I went on and I was a koa,
so I felt really like I, Ireally have to figure this out. Because
if people go on a road tripand they're KOA campers and they

(14:06):
stay at, I don't know, eightor nine KOAs as they make a transit
through the States, seeingdifferent things. They, they see
yellow shirts, they seecabins, they see the guest maps.
They got a pool at every park.Maybe they got a bounce pad at all
the parks. Maybe they got a.So what? What in the world am I going
to do? After a while, it'slike the perfume counter, right?
You walk past and they keepspraying you. By the time you get

(14:27):
to the end, you're like, Idon't know what smells like what.
It's all exactly the same.What in the world am I going to do?
So you've got to figure out away to differentiate and as you know,
you know, mine, I always goback to conservation type activities
because they're, they'reinexpensive and the natural world
is something that really bindsus. Even the people who are afraid
of spiders or snakes orwhatever they will, they will gravitate

(14:50):
towards it if you give them asafe way, a way to feel safe and
do it at the same time. Sothat's how I did it. Angele sounds
like she's got some reallygreat. I mean, I don't know of too
many, too many places thatlean into Nordic spas. And I mean,
that's fantastic.
But that's, that's how everyglamping place is in Canada.
Oh, my gosh. I've got it. Allright. I'm going to.
We know how to do it right in Canada.

(15:11):
Spring is coming. I'm going tomigrate northward with the birds.
I'm just going to come up andNordic spout for a while. That sounds
wonderful. Yeah. I need to geton the other side of that border.
Yeah, but that's, but that's.So that's crossover. Right. And then
we move to the RV industry. Ithink it's the same way, and you
can tell me if I'm wrong.Eleonore and Shane, but I think it's
the same way when you talkabout manufacturers of RVs. I think

(15:34):
there's now more of a. I have,I have a choice. Lots of things are
back in stock now. I have theability to go to the shows or go
to the dealerships and see allthe different models and all the
different things that areavailable to me. I'm going to be
more picky now. I'm going todemand something that maybe isn't
necessarily better but isbetter for me, if that makes sense.

(15:58):
And so I'm going to askquestions about the features. I'm
going to ask questions about,you know, the mileage. If it's, you
know, model like that. I'mgoing to ask questions about the
electronics and all that andI'm going to be more picky and maybe
take time to make a, adecision. Is that fair? Eleonore,
Shane, whoever wants to take that?
Well, I mean, I thinkobviously consumers are doing a lot

(16:19):
more research than they werebefore. They have, like you said,
they have more options, youknow, potentially available than
they did during, you know,during the pandemic. Because dealers
do have inventory on theirlots. And, you know, it's, it's the
experience. As, you know, asAngele had said before, people are

(16:40):
coming for experience and, andthey want to experience. They're
not just necessarily campingthey're going to experience things,
whether it be, you know,outdoors. So there's, you know, they're
looking at their, their RVs,not just in a camping mode. I'm not
just going to take it to thecampground to camp.
Right, yeah. And so you needto have features in that RV that

(17:02):
fit your specific lifestyle,whatever that is. And everybody's
different. So it doesn't meanone manufacturer is better than the
other. It means onemanufacturer is better than the other
for that specific individualwho happens to be purchasing that
RV at that moment. Andobviously there's lots of those individuals
who are still purchasing.Right, but. But that's what I'm.
I think we're agreeing.
Yeah. You know, and to addwhat Eleonore's saying, there's so

(17:27):
many sources on the Internet,whether it's Facebook groups or ownership
groups or YouTube videos, and,and people are doing research, but
not only about the RVlifestyle, but particular brands,
how they, how they gettreated, and even to the point of
dealerships. And there's a lotof pressure to make sure that you

(17:49):
do things right, because, youknow, even if you do, you don't do
something right. There couldbe somebody out there who sends a
negative comment out and itwasn't justified, but everybody else,
it. So you need to address,you know, all those things.
Do you want to give us anexample of a negative comment or

(18:09):
do.
You want to just, you know, itcould be hypothetically, Brian. Oh,
it's like, okay, these, theseguys don't take it there. You know,
I took my unit in there andthey didn't fix my link. You know,
things like that. You know,really basic stuff. But it could
be a lot, you know, a lot morein depth, too. But I think getting,

(18:30):
getting to Angele. I, I'm.I'm. But is that how I. I pronounce
your name?
Yes. Angele.
Angele. Okay.
So, you know, I've ever heardShane speak French before. I don't
know if it was actuallyaccurate. I actually don't even know
if it was French. It justsounded French.
No, that was. That was veryhighly French.

(18:52):
Okay.
But anyway, it's not a. It isimportant to have some features at
any business, especiallyglamping experiences. To what point
and extension, you know, doyou need to go saunas if. If your
people are demanding them orhot tubs or whatever? But I think

(19:15):
campgrounds especially andglamping experience, it's give the
customer good customerservice. And it, you know, it's basic
stuff. And sometimes we don't.We don't see that it's It's a thank
you. It's treating them wellat the introduction. It's.
Why do you think that is,Shane? Like, why? I mean, not. I

(19:36):
mean, we're not talking aboutthe RV industry or obviously there
are people within the RVindustry who don't do that well,
but same with campgrounds.Same with marketing agencies. Same
with glamping. Why do youthink it's so hard for people? Or
is it not hard and they'rejust willingly saying in some cases
that I don't want to careabout that?
I think it's a. It's. It's a.There's a lot of factors. There's

(20:00):
a lot of pressure. There'sless employees. I think more people
feel that it's okay tocomplain more these days. So, you
know, it's hard for a businessowner sometimes not to get down on
themselves, you know, todisregard all those negative comments
and then the next customerthat walks through the door to be
positive. But, you know, Ithink it's. It's more of a societal

(20:24):
thing now, and maybe it's notexemplified to your workers or, you
know, out there as much as itused to be. I remember, man, you
know, my day with the financecompanies, we used to go through
customer service seminars atleast twice or three times a year.
And I'm just not sure if someof those things are being, you know,

(20:49):
funneled out as much as before.
Lisa, would you hand me my.I'm sorry, I gotta ask Lisa for my
phone because there's a statthat I wanted to pull up related
to this. So we were having aconversation, and here's what I mean,
we were having a conversation.I think it was last week, maybe for
anybody who was watching theshow. Obviously, I wasn't paying
attention. I think last week,Casey Cochran was on the show from

(21:10):
Camp Spot. Either that it wasthe week before, and we were talking
about. We had someone on theshow who was talking about the amount
of cancellations that peoplehad, and it was kind of like a. It
was a campground owner. Shewas one of the special guests, and
she was just talking about.And it's. The perception, I think,
is different as a campgroundowner or a business owner of the
volume of perhaps negativityor cancellations or whatever we're

(21:34):
talking about that exists outthere. Because you're in your own
bubble, right? And becausepsychologically wise. And Harvard
did studies on this, right?Especially for negative reviews.
But when you hear somethingbad, your mood goes down and stays
down much longer and thencomes back up versus hearing something
Good. And then you kind of goright back to your happy medium place.

(21:55):
Right. And so I'm wondering,like, I'm not saying you're wrong
at all, Shane. Obviouslyconsumers are complaining. Maybe
not more today, but they'redefinitely more vocal and more visible
and have more power because ofsocial media and all the different
media channels out there. ButI'm trying to find this stat because
Casey was kind enough to lookit up for me afterwards and apparently

(22:20):
I just talked to him too muchon Slack. So I'm trying to scroll
up through here, but it was anumber. Those are. Okay. Someone
said cancellations are 20 andchargebacks were a huge issue. They're
only. They are only at 11 to12% for cancellations, which is still
high. That's kind of stilllike surprises me a little bit if

(22:43):
you want to wait on that sec,Greg. But then chargebacks are less
than 1% of those, sochargebacks are not as big of a.
And again, I know you're notin the campground industry, you know,
and that's just to be clear,that's from Camp Spots data. That's
not all of the industry, butthey have a huge representation of
thousands of parks that theycould pull that information from.

(23:04):
Yeah, like 3, 000 parks now, Ithink, right at Camp Spot.
Yeah, like something like that.
So that's. I mean, that's apretty good chunk and that. I think
you're right, Brian. That is.That's just human nature. It. They're
11 to 12, but when you talk topeople, they're like, it's 20, it's
30, it's five out of every 10people. Everybody does it complaining.
Everybody's complaining. It'sjust part of who we are as creatures,

(23:27):
you know, and that can be hardto get around. Especially again,
going back to those owneroperators. When you're out there
and you are in it every dayto, to kind of go back to what. What
Shane was saying. Maybe it'sjust because you're so mired down
and tired and trying to wearevery hat. And I know until I got

(23:48):
my park organized, okay, Inever got my park organized. I felt
like I was wearing all thehats right up until the end. I'm
not gonna lie to anybody. It.When, when something like that came
through, it feels verypersonal and it sometimes is really
hard to separate. But, youknow, and seeing stats like that,
I bet you could show that toowners all day long and they go,
no, no, it's much higher at myplace. But they've never actually

(24:09):
put sat down with theirreviews. Yeah, they've never done
the data, but. And it's. It'shard because now you're operating
on emotion. And really, inorder to get your work done and run
a successful business, yousomehow got to remove emotion. But
that's like telling somebody,you know, be less human when you
run your.
Yeah, I don't think the answeris. Is less emotion, like, because

(24:32):
of. For the reasons you justsaid. It's amazing how we find weird
things to talk about on theshow. Right. Never know what's going
to happen when we starttalking. I don't think it's an emotion
thing. I think it's. It's an.There. There must be a way for you
to triage, compartmentalize,departmentalize, whatever the word
is after you hear thatfeedback, whether it is by email

(24:55):
or an online review or inperson, which are even harder to
deal with. But understandingdid that customer not even have a
legitimate complaint? Althoughthat's part of it. But was their
perception that theircomplaint was legitimate doesn't
make them right or wrong. Thecustomer is certainly not always
right. But then if it waslegitimate or legitimate through

(25:22):
their perception, then how doI either fix it or fix the perception
that it was a problem? Andthen the ones that aren't falling
into that category, I, like,just toss them away. The guy was
an asshole or whatever, right?
Yeah. Yeah. And you're. Youhit on something that I've talked
to multiple clients about andjust people in my network that are.

(25:44):
That are park owners, thataren't clients of Camp Strategy and
its perspective. Becauseperception, you. You can't change.
If I see red and you see blue,our rods and cones just aren't lining
up, man. We're never going tosee. You're never going to see red
where I see it, if you'realways seeing blue. But perhaps the
difference is in ourperspectives. Maybe you're looking

(26:05):
at it from over there at adifferent angle, and I'm really close
to it. So we need to find away to bring those perspectives closer
together, and then you have achance to understand one another's
perceptions. From there, youcan build on something. And so that's
incumbent on an owner,operator, manager to try to do with
that guest. And it's alsoincumbent on that owner operator

(26:28):
to look at that realisticallyand go, you know what? Maybe they
said some hurtful things, butthere's a kernel of truth in here.
I need to find that, separateit out, erase the emotional part
and use that kernel of truthto improve my operation, to improve
My facilities, whatever it wasthat, that started that, I can take
that and use it, but I can'tallow myself to hold on to the, you

(26:49):
know, if they write some awfulthings about you and your family,
which I, I had done, I, yeah,wouldn't even want to get into it.
I still have a list. I've soldmy park four years ago and in the
back of my mind I can tell youthe last name and site number of
every, every client that whenthey went home on a Sunday, I wanted
to get out the excavator anddig a giant hole and push all their
belongings. They're, they'reall still in there. You're laughing

(27:13):
because it's true. You, like,you, you just, you feel that sometimes,
but you put it away, you go onwith your business and you try really
hard to see if you can get theperspectives closer together. I think
that's the only way you do it.Because perspective informs perception.
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, welook at, and then you look at. So

(27:35):
how's that tie back, Shane, tothe RV industry and what you were
talking about? Right, becauseI mean, let's have an honest conversation
here for a second. Like, weboth know that there are not as many
problems with RVs as we'reperhaps led to believe by the volume
of people screaming andshouting on social media or by the

(27:55):
perception of just dealers,for one example, of the amount of
people who come into theirdealerships and complain. But also
there are problems with someRV manufacturers, some of whom who
are better, some of whom whoare worse, some of whom put into
place customer service, someof whom don't. We're not here to

(28:15):
call out people. Right, but sohow do we, or do we care enough,
should we care enough tochange that perception from a 20,000
foot view of, on the RVindustry as a whole.
I don't know how you, youknow, what is it? Perception and

(28:36):
perspective? What did you say, Greg?
Yeah, yeah, I really, theperspective, your, your perspective
informs your perception. Yeah.
You know, so, you know, I, I,you can argue with somebody, you
know, it's, it's listening tothem out. I think it, it's just,
you know, trying to come to a,an agreement of, of why they feel

(28:57):
that way and what could be done.
But not even to the, not evento the individual. Right. And I'm
sorry, I didn't interrupt you.No, not even to the individual. Because
we're not going to solve likesome people, as we just talked about
in campgrounds are just, butthat, but they're not new. Right.
Like, it. It feels likethey're new because of social media

(29:18):
and blogs and all the placesthat they can be seen and heard.
But there have always beenassholes at camp. Probably the same
percentage in the 1940s asthere is today. Right. Or whatever
decade you want to pick. The.The question I think is. Is as. Or
I guess the question I amtrying to ask you, which may be the

(29:40):
wrong question, but is, youknow, is it something that the RV
industry has on their radarto. And maybe it's not even the RV
industry's job, but is there away we can provide education around
this to help? Like, obviouslythe consumers who are going to be
vocal are not going to goaway, but is there a way to. And

(30:04):
it needs to be done in thecampground industry too? In the glamping
industry too. And I'm notpicking on the RV industry. Right.
But you guys are here. Maybeyou won't come back next month, but
does that make sense?
Well, it's managing consumerexpectations, right? That's a lot
of it. Is.
Is.
Which we hope that our dealersdo when. When they have a new consumer

(30:28):
that comes into theirdealership. You know, we do know
also some of the RVDA'sprovincial associations as well.
And I know it happens in thestate as well, have, you know, consumer
education sessions, whether itbe, you know, the lifestyle seminars
that the RV Alberta puts on,but, you know, education and training
for consumer is huge. Andwhether it comes from, you know,

(30:51):
at a rally with yourmanufacturer, at a camp, at a dealership,
we just need to make sure asan industry, collectively, that we're.
We're managing thoseexpectations. We're letting people
know what's available. I mean,even for Angele, right. She might
be like, no, these sites don'thave saunas, you know, because we're
limited with, you know, Idon't know, space or water or, you
know, what have you. But justto manage that so that when people

(31:12):
at least are going towardstheir experience, they know what
to expect. Right.
I mean, I think that's a bigpart of it, like what you're talking
about. Right? And I thinkthat's. I mean, I think that. But
I don't. I guess I. Perhapsthat's too arrogant because I don't
really know the RV industry.Like, I know the campground industry.
I feel like, generallyspeaking, that's human psychology.
But what you're sayingresonates with me as a potential

(31:37):
consumer of somebody who wouldbuy an rv, right. Is there a better
job we should be doing? Isthat as an industry as an outdoor
hospitality industry that youthink, Eleonore.
Well, you know, again, I'm. Myexpertise isn't really in the outdoor
hospitality, so just.
Well, but I think you're partof outdoor hospitality.

(31:59):
Well, yeah, in terms of theRVs, for sure. We always think, you
know, we, we always recommendour dealers, you know, you know,
stay, you know, relevant, youknow, with. With product, with knowledge,
with what's happening, witheducation and training so that, you
know, they at least themselvescan then educate the consumer proper.

(32:19):
I, I would hope, again, thatcampground operators and anybody
in the outdoor space is, Isdoing the same so that they can,
they can then, you know, coachor, or assist their consumers to
make their best decisions. Imean, I think that goes for any industry.
I don't think it's.
Yeah. I mean, what do you,what do you think the biggest consumer
mismatch or perception is withthe RV that they're buying or have?

(32:42):
Like, if you had to pick one.I know that's hard. Well, and I won't
hold you to it. I'm justasking, like, generally, what do
you feel? Not that's a rightperception, but perhaps it's just
a lack of expectations beingset correctly.
Well, I think sometimes thedrivability, you know, is a, Is.

(33:02):
Is people are, you know, youknow, we hear sort of what are the
obstacles when they decide tocome out of the RV industry and,
you know, not using it enough,not necessarily using it properly,
not having the right. Again,it comes to consumer expectations
and training, you may not havethe right.
Toby, nobody's saying it's thedealer's fault necessarily. Right.

(33:25):
We're just trying to see,like, have a conversation.
Yeah. You know, RVs are gonna,there's gonna be times when it, it,
it breaks down or somethingdoesn't work and it happens. No big
deal. But, you know, it's, It's.
Well, it could be a big deal.I mean, what if it breaks down in

(33:46):
the middle of a burning man?Well, let me just got there and it's
day.
Let me take that, that lastpart out. It is a big deal, but,
you know, that just, you know,don't, don't overly stress about,
you know, the fact that maybe,you know, Fritz doesn't work or whatever
your water heater, like, it's.
Not always a big deal. Youcould also break down in the middle

(34:08):
of a tropical island with anopen bar with 24. 7 happy hour, then
it's maybe not as big of a deal.
So.
I'm with you, Shane. Sorry.
No, but, you know, and Eller'sPoint it's expectations and, and
how you handle those thingswhen they do break down. Okay, here's
who you call and you know, youcan, you can expect X to Y time frame

(34:29):
to, you know, to fix it orwhatever. But, you know, I, you know,
things, things are, I thinkthere's, there's a lot of focus on,
on the RV industry to, youknow, to maybe build quality units.
And I think, I think we'restarting to see that.

(34:52):
You, you really, you thinkit's getting better? I mean, I don't
know how bad it was. To beclear, that's maybe the wrong.
There was, you know, I think,I don't think it was. There was more
instances during COVID Ithink, but even then, you know, more
people, there was more unitsbuilt. You know, maybe it was less

(35:13):
than, you know, 1 1/2% orwhatever, but it, you know, the numbers
were a little bit bigger andmaybe, you know, the perception is
there was more. But I think,you know, everybody's watching building
quality, quality product now.
All right, let's talk aboutshows. Have you guys heard how the
shows have been going so far?We just finished the Tampa one. Right.

(35:34):
I don't know if either you went.
Down to Tampa, but yeah, wewere not in Tampa. I mean, I heard
that the dealers were, youknow, the numbers I think were a
little bit down, but then theweather's been sort of unique in,
in Florida this month, so thatlikely had an impact. I think from
what I, I just read the trademedia and, and the dealers there

(35:55):
seemed pleased. We have ourfirst shows in Canada are, are starting
tomorrow. So the Calgary RVshow starts tomorrow and the Halifax
RV show as well. So we'll knowa little bit more, you know, next
week in terms of, you know,what the numbers look like, what
type of product is beinglooked at, who, what the demographics

(36:15):
of the consumers are.
Knowing how dangerous thisquestion is, do you guys, both of
you in the RV industry reallybelieve that we're going to have
a year that is up over lastyear with RV sales?
If you had asked both of usprobably in December, I, I think

(36:37):
we would have probably saidyes. But there's just seems to be
some more uncertainty todaythan I've ever seen in a while.
I think, I think, I agree withthat. Like, I don't think it's a
product issue at all. I thinkit's economic.

(36:58):
Yeah, and, and, and, and, andthe. What is unknown factors, right?
Yeah. Consumer confidence and,you know, the economy.
Do you think that. And I saidDecember versus now, which is roughly
A month. Right. Is theresomething that caused you to change
that perception? Is it justmore time has passed? Is it the whatever

(37:24):
dynamic Mr. Trump is havingwith Canada that might result in
tariffs that might causepeople to lose jobs? Is it?
Yes, all of that.
Yeah. I mean, you understand,like, we have obviously a US Audience
here and a Canadian audienceand some people around the world,
too, I'm sure. So that's. I'mjust trying to provide, I guess,
a little bit of clarity on,like, is this a. I think it's an

(37:45):
RV industry. It's a. It had.The campgrounds are the same way.
Right. Like, it's not justRVs, but I think it's a United States
and America thing. UnitedStates and America. Did I say that?
Anyway, United States andAmerica and Canada. There's three
countries now. I just madethem. So. But, like, I think it's.

(38:08):
I think it's maybe exacerbatedperhaps a little bit earlier than
otherwise would have shown inCanada. And you can all disagree
with me because of the tariffsituation and potentially the fallout
from that. Right?
Yeah. And. And, you know, alsothe exchange rate for the retailers.

(38:28):
It's a dollar. Yeah.
You know, it. When. When it'sfairly stable, people can predict,
but it's. It's been sounpredictable over the last 60 to
90 days, and it's not all thatgood right now. But let's hope that
things steady out and we. Wehear some encouraging words from

(38:50):
the south and that we're allgonna work together. And I think.
Where did you hear that from?
Oh, that's just me, Brian.
Oh, okay.
I'm just saying you're in the north.
You can't, like, who's thesouth person you're talking to? This
is what.
I was being encouraging beforeyou came on, Brian. I was very encouraging.
Maybe that was.
Despite having no influencewhatsoever. I was just trying to

(39:12):
be a nice person. From South.
No, I mean, I think we'veseen, like, we saw, like, it was.
I think, generally speaking,politics aside, and how you feel
like, it was good to see,like, at least Danielle from Alberta
be able to go and have a sitdown with Mr. Trump. Right. Whether
that was productive. Who knowswhether it moved the needle. I don't
know, but at least it wasproductive. And then I know Trudeau

(39:35):
went down there. That's awhole different dynamic we won't
get into with what's happeningall there. But I, like, I heard that
they delayed the tariffs, butthen I heard, as of yesterday, I
think they said that February1st was probably when they were going
to put them into place.
Yeah.
And then there's the wholedynamic of like we're not going to
get into an economy discussionhere, but the oil. And they've, he's

(39:57):
declared an emergency toincrease oil production in the United
States, which obviouslyimpacts how much they may or may
not import from Alberta. Solike there is a lot of uncertainty,
but I think that regardless ofwhat happens there, I think we're
still dealing with an economythat is going to be rough in 2025
for a lot of people. So let'sassume for a second that maybe we're

(40:19):
only flat to down marginallyin the RV industry in 2025. How does
that impact the industry?
If we, well, I think if we'reflatter down only slightly, I think
we'd, I'll be ecstatic.
Okay, what are you, what areyou realistically then and yeah,

(40:39):
and I'm just asking thisfollow up question because the way
you phrased it, right. What doyou realistically think it's going
to be in, in Canada? It's theonly expertise you have, I think.
Yeah, I, I, you know, I, I, Idon't, I don't have any forecast
right now. I don't know howLeonard feels but you know, it's,
it's usually you got some kindof guidance. I, I personally don't

(41:00):
and everybody I talk to can't,can't give me a definitive answer
either. I don't know.
Well, yeah, I mean, I don'tthink anybody knows. Right. And it's
just like in the campgroundindustry we study this for marketing.
You know, we do marketing forfour or five hundred campgrounds.
And we also don't know becausethis is a unique situation that didn't
even happen in 2008. This is acompletely different recession, a
completely different climate.You know, lots of so many things

(41:23):
are different. Right. Butwe're just kind of waiting to see
like what is, and we're goingto know pretty quickly here in February
and March what's going tohappen? Does the booking window change?
What are the number of peoplethat are going to reserve? How has
this been impacted? Obviously,like what does Trump do or not do
that may or may not impact theeconomy in a positive or negative
way? There's lots of unknowns,but I think generally speaking, regardless

(41:49):
of politics, there appears tobe a situation where the economy,
generally speaking overall inboth countries is going to struggle
in 2025. Like is there, isthere anybody on the show that thinks
that it's going to go liketurn around Instantly, in a couple
months.
You know, I, I can't, I, youknow, I can't speak for the U. S.

(42:12):
Economy, but I, I would tendto think that it probably gonna,
you know, maybe improve uphere. You know, we've got a pending
election that's, you know,those years are always uncertain.
You know, we're going through,you know, the leadership issue politically
and, you know, all thosethings are, like I say, you know,

(42:33):
add to the, the uncertainty.
But it's, but it's expensetoo. Right. It's. Food is up so much
and all the costs. And sothat's impacting people's decision
to buy big ticket items, isn'tit? All over. Washers, dryers, RVs.
Yeah. Oh, for sure. But, yeah,people, you know, still, the RV industry

(42:55):
has always, you know, gotthrough and people.
And they will again.
Yes. I guess my point is thatpeople need to, no matter how the
economy is, people still needto get outdoors and get away from
it all.
Yeah.
And that's where both of ourindustries come into play. And there's

(43:15):
always going to be a demandfor that.
Yeah. I don't, I'm sorry.Like, I know that the tone of this
has been negative for the lastfew minutes. I don't intend it to
be like, again, I think ourindustry is going to be fine. But
I also think, and Greg and Ihave talked about this, we'll talk
about it more on anotherepisode perhaps, or different format.

(43:37):
But like, I think there's adanger here from a campground owner
side, specifically, becausethat's the side I plan. Right. And
maybe that exists with RVdealers too. I think there's a danger
in putting, and I'm not sayinganybody's doing this to be clear,
but putting too much positivespin or wording into something that

(44:01):
perhaps misleads people whodon't pay attention as much as we
do into thinking they're goingto have a better year than they otherwise
might. Does that make sense?Not pointing fingers at anybody,
not saying anybodyspecifically is doing this, not blaming
RV industry, campgroundindustry, whatever else. But generally
speaking, I think that's whatI've seen recently from some different

(44:25):
stakeholders. And like, wecan, I mean, we can talk about. We're
on, we're talking about rv.We're on a show here. Right. Like,
shipments. Shipments doesn'timpact sales. It's. It does impact
the RV industry. It'simportant for manufacturers. It's
a great statistic to have.Right. Nobody's knocking it, but
I think there's a danger froma campground on a Perspective that

(44:46):
doesn't understand what thatmeans sometimes, which is not the
RV industry's fault. To beclear. It's a campground owner expectation,
whatever problem that maybethese, these numbers that are frequently
touted that shipments are up,shipments are up means that more
buyers are going to buy andthat shipments perhaps are up because

(45:06):
people are pulling things offthe lots. And they are, they're still
buying. We've seen anecdotalevidence at the shows. Right. But
they're not buying in the samenumbers. And so I'm just kind of
worried here that, that somecampground owners and glamping people
are going to go into the 2025with, as we've talked about for this
whole show, expectations thatperhaps don't match what they should,

(45:27):
positive or negative.
I have something to add tothat Brian, that I'd like to share
because you know, I think thatwith that knowledge on, my opinion
around that is that there'scertain things that I think will
be overall affected more thanothers in the outdoor hospitality.

(45:48):
Like you know, for example,like RV camping experience. I like,
you know, like Shane wassaying before, like people are always
going to revert to outdoor andwant to spend time outdoor. But I
think that where you're, wherea certain type of resorts are, are
type of experiences areposition is, is where the we'll see

(46:12):
the needle go up or down andhow that's being affected in the
market. So for example, likeif I was going to be purchasing an
RV that's maybe a hundredthousand dollar, I think you'll see
that type of manufacturer orproduct, our industry maybe be way
more affected and you'll see adecline in those type of RV experiences

(46:35):
versus like, you know, maybelike a $20,000 type of RV. I think
there's certain things thatwill strive and servants that want
in this type of possibleeconomic situation. And it's the
same thing in glamping thatwe're already seeing the needle being
moved. So for example, thereare glamping resorts that are, you

(46:57):
know, charging, you know, 400a night, you know, and yes, they
do have a nice experience. ButI think when people go out glamping
they'll make a decision do Ireally need to spend 400 to still
have the experience I can getif I go somewhere and spend 200?
And I think this is where thatthe hospitality industry in my opinion

(47:19):
as outdoor would stay strong.But certain things will be stronger
than they were and certainthings just want, you know, I think
it'll kind of level outdepending on the type of product
the type of experience, thetype of glamping. I still think that
people will revert to thesetype of experiences before going
to like resorts or hotels orthings like that. Unless it's a need,

(47:43):
you know, depending on. Onprice point, I think people are reverting
more to outdoor rv, you know,camping, glamping, but also where
the needle will be moved andthose ones that will have the hit
a lot more will depend on thecaliber of price point and experiences
that they have to offer inthat industry as well.

(48:06):
So how do we tell that story,Shane and Eleonore is what I'm. Because
I know it exists. I know she.What she just said is true. It must
be. And so like we Talkedabout in 2024, there are people buying
a lot of the smaller trailersversus the big ones. We've had this
conversation on the showbefore, right? Not that nobody's
buying big ones, but like, Ithink there's been a fundamental
shift in some of themanufacturers and the models that

(48:27):
people make and things thatare selling. How do we tell that
story? Because that's aninteresting story and maybe you're
already telling it and maybejust the campground side that I pay
attention to doesn't hear itas much. But how. Because there are
for sure positives, just likeshe said, right.
You know, I think the industrydoes a good job of telling. Gorevine

(48:50):
does a great job, you know.
And that's consumer, right? Solike, I'm just talking about like
for campground owners, I guess.
I'm. I'm not sure.
I mean, I don't know thatthere's an answer I get like, because
you're right. Go RVing does anexcellent job, but they are mostly
consumer facing. And so that Ithink is covered. They do again in

(49:10):
Canada and the U.S. i thinkthey both do a great job with their
marketing and their reach andbringing you people in and their
campaigns that they have andall that stuff. But I'm. But I mean
like the type of rigs that areselling well, the type of manufacturers
or the individualmanufacturers that are doing really
well because they have eithera different project product, just

(49:33):
like we were talking aboutcoming full circle to experiences,
right? Experiences atcampgrounds and glamping and all
that stuff. Is there a way orshould there be a way or is Brian
just dumb and should shut up?That's maybe all of the above that
like we can tell the storiesof what is actually really being

(49:55):
successful and that is apositive driver for the industry.
Because I think not only doesthat help the RV industry and maybe
you're sharing all this stuffinternally. You probably are, but
I think maybe it tells a storyto a campground owner of like maybe
I'm building or renovating mypark or adding glamping or not adding

(50:15):
glamping. What do I focus on?Do I focus on smaller sites that
are more intimate or you know,what is my consumer going to show
up driving?
I think it goes back to whatEleonore was saying before about
us going to everybody'smeeting and you know, we see each
other 10 times a year at leastand, and talk a lot more frequently
and, and lately we've been,you know, telling about, you know,

(50:39):
certain units are gettinglonger and, and what the trends are.
We communicate those things asbest we can, you know, to, you know,
all the, all the campgroundsassociated so they can, you know,
move, move that down. I, youknow, think things do change. You're,
you're, you're right that thetrend may be towards a smaller unit.
But you know, it doesn't meanthat a commit campground owner should

(51:02):
all of a sudden build smallersites. You know, you know, they,
they, these are trends. Theygo up and down. They change all the
time. And you know, if you canfit, you can fit a, a smaller unit
on a big site, you can't fit abig unit on a small site. So you
know, I, I think they're,they're can, they're more, I guess

(51:24):
listening harder when we saythat the length of the units are,
are increased, which there issome truth to that.
Yeah. And I would say workingwith, you know, the, the different,
ourselves internally we havemore information. But working, you
know, as a campgroundoperator, at least in Canada, being

(51:44):
part of your provincialassociation, which then in turn gets
information from ccrba, whichis the national, I mean we share
a lot of that data with them.When I look at our RV stats for 2024,
we have them to the end ofNovember. The only segment that actually
show growth was fifth wheels.So you know, you're talking about,
you know, units, right. Thelar, the fifth wheels. I mean they're

(52:06):
more expensive, they'relonger, they're bigger, they can
go up to 48ft. So you know,for us to share that with CCRVA and
then in turn CCRVAdistributing that, you know, through
their provincial associations,you know, that's where I think the
campground operators need tolook to try to gain some insights
and participate in some of theeducation that's available to them

(52:29):
through, you know, through.
Their provincial associations,which I agree with completely. Associations
are absolutely critical. Ithink my other question is is maybe
a reflection on myself, too.Is this partly my fault with Modern
Campground? Like, could we doa better job of communicating with
the RV industry specific toCanada? We're talking to you guys.

(52:50):
Right. But obviously the UStoo, to tell more of those stories
that campground owners wouldfind useful.
Wow.
Like, I'm basically asking youif I suck and you can say that.
Well, no, no. And I. Andyou're all. All media is. Is important

(53:13):
in this to help with thecommunication, including, you know,
you, Brian, for sure.
Yeah. But I mean, we need to,like, can we be more proactive, is
what I'm asking, to theCanadian RV industry, to the two
people who are sitting here tohelp better tell stories that are
relevant to campground owners.Because as we're all on the show
together and we all seecampgrounds related to glamping is

(53:35):
related to RV industry asoutdoor hospitality is everything.
Right. Is there a larger rolethat is on us as a media company
to provide better value to.Who are we're talking about in this
specific instance? Campgroundowners. And if there is, I want to
make a habit because it onlybenefits all of us, right?

(53:57):
Yeah.
Well, I mean, I don't, youknow, I. I'd have to have a look
at. At what you're currentlyproviding and to see if we can identify
any areas where we cansupplement that with additional,
you know, resources andknowledge that we produce that might
be helpful for the campground operators.
Okay, let's think about thatthen. Like, I don't want to add work
to your plate. We both knowyou do 2 billion things a day, Eleonore,

(54:21):
So, like, I'm willing to dothe work. Right. Maybe there's story
ideas or suggestions or thingslike that, but yeah, I'd love to
tell more of those storiesbecause, like, all. And, Greg, you
tell me if I'm wrong, becausewe're both in the campground industry
side, and I'm obviously anAmerican who immigrated to Canada,
but we read Modern Campground,we read Woodalls, and I don't read

(54:43):
RV business because I'm justnot as involved in the RV industry.
And so I'm sure there's muchmore of these stories there. But
from a campground owner side,those are the two basic news resources
besides the Facebook groups, right?
Yep.
So I feel like the only newswe get from the RV industry is that
shipments are up every month.And then the rest of the stories
are about campgrounds, which,to be clear, is not the RV industry's

(55:05):
fault. That's a coverage issuebecause there's very clearly more
things going on in the RVindustry than the fact that shipments
are up or down or whateverthey're doing. Right.
Yeah.
So that's what I'm trying tosay, like, I think is on us to change.
I think that's fair. I mean, Ithink. I also think you guys and

(55:26):
Woodall's, I think you guys doa great job of covering the industry,
putting out relevant data,but, you know, you. So you lead the
horse to water. It is sort ofincumbent on the owners, on the operators
to read that, to pull outwhat's good for them to. To take

(55:47):
it on in a way that isbeneficial to them, whether it be
good news or bad news. Therehas to be some ownership on the side
of the meter. Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, because of thecontent. Like, again, I don't even
read my own daily newsletterbecause I don't have time. Sorry,

(56:07):
Akari.
So that's why it's so bad.
But like, but, but is it like,am I right?
No, it's not. It's not.
Like, I feel like the onlything we see pushed from a. Not push,
because that's the wrong wordcovered on a repetitive, regular
basis in Woodall's and Moderncampground is RV shipments.
When it comes to the industry itself.
The industry itself? Yeah.Obviously we cover manufacturers

(56:29):
and new models and things likethat. Right?
Yeah.
And news about those peoplethat are one time.
Yeah.
So that's what I think we cando a better job of because, like,
again, we sit here and we'retalking about perception, and I'm
pointing the finger right backat myself because my perception is,
is that the only thing the RVindustry pushes is that the good
news that shipments are up andthere's so much other good news besides

(56:53):
that. Right. Eleonore andJane. That, that my perception is,
is that we just don't see itoutside of the circles of the RV
industry that communicate andtalk well together. So I'm pretty
sure my perception is wrong. Right.
Yeah, I. I would. I woulddisagree. And I don't think that's
only thing that we're. We're.We're sending out.

(57:15):
No, I'm saying I'm wrong. I'm saying.
Yeah, you know, I thinkthere's. There's, you know, releases
on. On new features and, andneat new models and, and, you know,
how the industry is doing as awhole and economic impact and all
that. I think. I think there'smore than just a monthly report.

(57:38):
That's.
I agree with you. I'm justsaying that the campground side of
the news tends to only, itappears to me, cover the shipments.
And so, again, I'm with you. I100 agree with everything you just
said. I'm asking. And youdon't have to give me an answer right
now. But generally speaking,this is the theme of my question,
is how do I help change thatnarrative so that we're amplifying

(58:02):
more of the positive messagesthat come out of the RV industry?
Because they're there. Right.Just like Angele said, not everybody's
gonna have a positive story.Right. And again, we talked about
2025, but in 2025, there aregoing to be nuggets of amazing manufacturers
with amazing stories and greatemployees and wonderful customer

(58:23):
service and improvedmaintenance and better service wait
times and all the things.Right. So many things to talk about
from a positive aspect. How dowe do a better job of sharing that?
Well, it just seems that, youknow, whoever's doing the research
on your side needs to tap intoother. Other sources than just the
RBIA shipments.

(58:43):
Absolutely.
I'm blaming myself. We're onthe same page here, right? Like,
but that's what I need. Like,I need. Because I'm not in the RV
industry, I need somebody inthe RV industry to tell me how to
do it better. What happened tomy camera? It's like, oh, orangey
now.
Oh, so the Trump thing. Yeah.You didn't hear about that? So they
signed an executive order tomake you all look orange just like

(59:05):
him every time you get on the camera.
I'm sorry.
Yeah, that's gonna beterrible. You know what, Brian? Can
I steer us a differentdirection? I ask a question.
Yes.
You don't care, so I'mcurious. So Shane said earlier, you
know, if they end up flat ormaybe up a little bit, he'd feel

(59:28):
like that's. That's an okaything for this year, given all the.
The chaos, the uncertaintyright. Between elections and tariffs
and. And orange camera feeds.I'm. I'm curious to see, like, Angele,
what. What do you see forglamping for. For, like, flip side
of the coin. So if that'swhat, you know, Shane is hopeful

(59:49):
for on the RV side, what areyou hopeful for on. What are you
looking forward to as far asoccupancy and. And similar, you know,
looking at. You don't look atRV sales because you don't have to
have an RV to stay at yourplace. So maybe are you looking for
a big bump up this year? If RVsales are flat, what are you sort

(01:00:10):
of forecasting for this year?
Yeah, that's a good question.You know, and it's kind of one of
those things where we, it wasalmost scary to see what was going
to happen this winter. I knowfor us like in where we're located,
the province of New Brunswickhas over 40 glamping resort that
just popped out in the lasttwo years. Competition is on an all

(01:00:31):
time high and the economy isnot, you know, showing as strong.
So there's only so much, youknow, potential opportunity, you
know, for, for the glampingoperators to really like strive in
this, in this time, you know,and especially even in the winter
season here. And so for usright now, what we're seeing like,

(01:00:54):
you know, already happeningand because of how we also came about
our resort specifically is wecame to be an affordable, high end,
luxury, glamping experience.So because we're, we position ourselves
in that segment, we're stillstaying strong in terms of bookings,

(01:01:14):
you know, like we were notexpecting to be as full as we are.
So you know, right now for us,our weekends are full already till
end of April and our weekdaysare getting full by the day. It's
more of a last minute thingthat it used to be six months before
we would be sold out, but nowit's like two weeks before we're

(01:01:34):
starting to fill out. Butwhat, what we're seeing is that there's
a lot of glamping resort wejust saw coming for sale and some
that are actually decided toclose out for the winter. So we're
seeing the impact, butthey're, the category they're playing
in is more in a high end,luxurious, more expensive, you know,

(01:01:55):
caliber. So I think a lot ofpeople are being conscious financially,
you know, with all the costsgoing up and everything. You know,
those ones are being impacteda lot more than we would be impacted.
But we've definitely beenimpacted more than usual. Usually,
usually for us we'd be 100capacity all the time. And now we're

(01:02:17):
probably at 70, 80% capacity.So we've seen the shift even in where
we are positioned, you know,so for us we're just trying to focus
on the experience and thecustomer service and you know, we're
really pushing that hard tomake sure that everybody comes has

(01:02:38):
a good experience experienceand even to jump a little bit on
that because I know earlier wewere getting a conversation, you
know, people complain andthere's comments and how do you keep
those customers happy?Sometimes you just can't, you know.
But for us, what's really likehelping us keep that up in terms
of even getting to bring a lotof people in and keep the Customer

(01:02:59):
service level up is whenpeople make bookings with us, we'll
ask them question. And a lotof time people, when they go glamping
or they go away is becausethey're celebrating birthdays, anniversaries,
you know, all these things. Sowe ask them question and we take
notes of everything. So whenthe guests come back, we, we welcome

(01:03:19):
them and say happy Birthday.And they're like, oh my God, how
did you remember my birthday?You know, like just little details,
but little details that reallybring that up for us and keep people
coming back and keep us fullin the time that we were not at school
expecting maybe to be as fullas we are, you know, so we're really
like pushing the bar to, tokeep that up so that people will

(01:03:42):
keep coming, you know, inthese situations.
Yeah. So you, you builtessentially affordability in to the,
the very core of yourbusiness, right? You're, you're luxury
but affordable. And so Iwonder then flipping the coin back
to Eleonore, Shane, are youseeing manufacturers doing the same

(01:04:02):
thing where they're trying tobuild more affordability into the
new units so that it, becauseof the economic uncertainty to try
to drive more sales, whetherit be smaller units or the fifth
wheels. Do you see them tryingto build in affordability at their
core like Angele is doing inorder to sustain or grow their sales?

(01:04:27):
I think the demand starts witha consumer who goes to the dealer
and says, you got more ofthese? And then the dealer orders
those from the manufacturer. Ithink it's, you know, there's one
huge dealer group in the USwho are just doing that and they're,
they, they drive a prettyconsiderable influence on what the

(01:04:49):
manufacturer builds.
Okay. So you're notnecessarily seeing the, the, the
builders up there saying,look, we've got a, we need to build
affordability and we've got tomake that part of our core mesh message.
Let's, you know, this line isgoing to be built or build or advertised
or marketed as the affordableline that we put out. Nothing really

(01:05:12):
like that. Or, or is thereanyone out there doing that? Just
curious.
No, I mean, you know, in termsof our marketing to consumers, affordability
is one of the key messagesthat we are focused on. It's been
very important and you know,again with gorebeam Canada has been,
you know, one of their keystrategies for this year. But when

(01:05:33):
we talk to the manufacturers,it's exactly what Shane said. It's
the consumer is what dictateswhat product ends up really in the
industry. It's consumerdriven. They'll go and ask for product.
You know, how units becomelonger, bigger. I mean, it's, you
know, because consumers aredemanding, you know, more slide outs,
more, you know, more space,you know, but. But at the same time,

(01:05:56):
you know, like, you know,towables, lightweight, you know,
that was, again, was becauseconsumers were dictating that trend.
Affordable units, yes, will beone of them, but definitely not.
Not solely what they'refocusing on.
And it's so much harder froman RV industry perspective. It must
be from an RV industryperspective to focus on affordability

(01:06:17):
where. Versus a glampingresort or campground. Like, not that
it's easy for a glampingresort or campground. Right.
No, but. But considerablyeasier. Yeah, you're right.
Hearts are much more expensivetoday than they were a few years
ago. Right. So, like, even ifyou wanted to focus on that affordability,
where do you do it?
Yeah, yeah. It would take a.Not just a rebrand. It's. It's. It

(01:06:40):
would take almost likeoutfitting your entire line to. To
build a new affordable, youknow, we're coming out with a new
affordable line or a newaffordable model and market it that
way. It would be verydifferent than being able to do it,
you know, day by day by. Byclicking on your rates and. And moving
them up or down. I think it'salso interesting what you said, Brian,
that ties back into your workwith Scott, that that booking window

(01:07:02):
has shortened considerably.Yeah, I don't know. I'm sorry I hijacked
your show. It's seven minutesover now.
No, it's fine. Like, I mean,again, if somebody needs to drop
up, but we're gonna wrap uphere in a second anyway. So I, I
think that, I don't know,like, just lean into the expensiveness,
Eleonore. Just make it moreexpensive and give them an experience
that they want. Like, forexample, Shane greeting everybody

(01:07:25):
inside the RV when they openit for the first time. They already
bought it. Right. And Shane isin there with like a custom sign
that says, hey, Cheryl,welcome home. Everybody would pay
at least 10 grand more to seeShane, I think.
Indeed.
10 grand. Us to be clear, I'mpretty sure.
They'Re gonna way more pay10,000 more for me not to be there,

(01:07:47):
Brian.
Oh, there's the value prop.
Not if you had the sign. Thesign is what's gonna make the difference.
It's the experiential customsign. Yeah, but. Yeah, I mean, I,
I didn't mean to get into sucha perhaps lightly controversial discussion.
I wasn't. Certainly wasn'ttrying to insult anybody or things
like that. I just thinksometimes we have to have these conversations

(01:08:08):
among the industry and, youknow, be forthright and figure out,
like, people like me who aresucking and can do better. Right.
Like how we can be better andall hold each other accountable.
So I appreciate you beingwilling to answer those questions.
Hopefully you guys will showup next month again. I'll get, like,
emails after this. Be like,I'm sorry, Brian, your show's terrible.
I can't come back. But thankyou guys for being here. Eleonore,

(01:08:30):
where can they learn moreabout RBD of Canada?
They can go to our website,which is www.rvda.ca.
And Shane Crva.
Yep. www.crva.ca.
Angele, Creekside.
So you can find us at ourwebsite, www.creeksidernr.com or

(01:08:53):
any of the social media siteon Facebook and Instagram as well.
And Greg with Camp Strategy.
Yeah, you can find us onLinkedIn. You can email me directly
gregcampstrategy.com or findus at our website, campstrategy.com
all.
Right, well, thank you guysfor joining us for another episode
of MC Fireside Chats. It'sover now and the. The cool intro
is coming back. So y'allwaited and listened to me for an

(01:09:16):
hour just so you could get tothis part. So don't leave now. But
thank you for joining us foranother episode of MC Fireside Chats.
Really appreciate all of youbeing on the show and dealing with
me. And we'll see you nextweek for another episode. Thanks,
guys.
Thanks, Brian. It was great.
See ya everybody.