MC Fireside Chats - March 19th, 2025 - MC Fireside Chats, an Outdoor Hospitality Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brian Searl (00:00):
Welcome everybody to another episode of MC Fireside Chats.
My name is Brian Searl with Insider Perks.
Super excited to be here withyou for our, I think it's, is it
the second third week of March?
I lose track with all these days.
But today we're talking aboutbusiness operations and management.
So we have a couple ofour recurring guests here.
We have Mike Harrison, who's drivingdown the road somewhat dangerously
and won't be on camera today.
So

Mike Harrison (00:18):
no, that's not proven.

Might be.
I guess he could be in a Tesla,but that's also controversial.
So we'll save that stufffor Outwired later.

Waymo

Oh, okay.
That's a Waymo.
That's pretty neutral.
Yeah.
And then we have Sandy Ellingsonback with us for another week.
And then we have Ali Rasmussenwho hasn't been here for a few
weeks, but welcome back, Ali.
Glad to have you here.

Ali Rasmussen (00:40):
Thank you.

And then we have a couple of special guests.
So we have Katie McLeod.
Am I pronouncing that right?

Katie McLeod (00:44):
Yeah, Katie McLeod

General Manager of Quilly's RV Parks.
Do you want to brieflyintroduce yourself, Katie?

Yeah, my name is Katie McLeod.
I own three RV parks inTexas and in Mississippi.
So I have Quilly's Magnolia RVPark in Vicksburg, Mississippi.
Then I have Quilly's Big FishRV Park in Rockport, Texas.
And I have Quilly's CozyTraveler in Oyster Creek, Texas.

Nice.
Rockport's a fun area.
There's all kinds of RV parks down there.
I used to work for one calledCircle W RV Ranch, but I think
it's, they rebranded and changed it.
Some big group all of them.
But anyway, it's a big RV town.

It is.

And then Ali Kiefer, Ali, John, and beth.
I think I interviewed you guysat the KOA convention, didn't I?
Is was my memory that good?

John Kieffer (01:23):
You did, yes.
We sat in the lobby andhad a great conversation.
We are the Blue Ridge DakotaRiver KOA in Blue Ridge Georgia.
We are a five year old franchise.
We built our park from the ground up andwe're proud to announce we won the KOA
Rising Star this past year at convention.
And we're always looking and working andtrying to figure out ways to improve our

(01:46):
operations and our camper experience.

Yeah, I think that would be a good conversation to
have with the group generally.
Just tips and tricks and how you I don'tknow if it's scale fast is the right word,
but just think about maybe outside thebox of ways that you can differentiate
yourself to win an award like that, right?
It'd be interesting to hear your take.
And I know we talked about thatbriefly at the KOA convention.
Maybe we can dive a littlebit more deeper into it today.
I think, normally I'll say, normallyI toss this to my recurring guests and

(02:11):
I say, is there anything interestingthat came across your desk today?
So I will do that in a second.
But before that, I want to saythere's something interesting that
came across my desk this week.
Mike knows about this, but hedoesn't know what I'm going to say.
And so I think this is a littlebit controversial, but, and, but
I know that it won't create like along discussion, so we won't really
get into the controversy of it.

(02:32):
And that's how to choose an onlinereservation system and we were
playing with the APIs of thedifferent reservation systems.
We have been for a long time for differentuse cases with AI and automation.
And I just want to toss it out there.
I think if you're choosing areservation system in 2025.
I think you need to take a good, solidlook at their API, and many of you
probably don't even know what that is.

(02:52):
It's basically a way to access thesoftware outside of the software.
For example, FaceBook has an API.
You can get to Facebookwithout going to Facebook.com.
But it allows you to pull your dataand interact with it and use it in all
kinds of automations, and I think thatis the future, and I think not enough
people pay attention to that when they'rechoosing their reservation system.
So feel free to weigh in onthat if anybody wants to.

(03:15):
Otherwise, that was just the interestingthing that I was thinking about this week.

Sandy Ellingson (03:19):
I totally agree.
I think that is key tomoving forward in the future.
I think that we all have to be looking atopen API's and softwares that can link up
the consumer wants one place to go to findall the things that they want to find.
They don't want to have to pickand choose from 15 different tools.

(03:40):
And I think the same happens insidethe property management softwares.
The more they can have an openAPI, the more they can integrate.
And we don't have to beeverything to everybody.
We can choose the best piecesand then integrate to those.
And then we all succeed.
So I think you're dead on Brian.

Yeah.
That's the piece that interests meis like you hear, and it doesn't, I'm
not going to name anybody here, butlike you, you hear whether it's any
of the reservation systems that weall know the names of will all tell
you we're working on an integration.
That's a good suggestion.
10 people want that.
100 people want that.
That's based on where we're prioritizingit, and we're working on it, but the
benefit of having an API that can do allthe things with your software is that

(04:21):
I can just go build my integration, andyou don't have to be bothered with it.
You don't have to hireanother software dev.
You don't need to do anything, andthat's what interests me because in the
future where we can pull that data andwe can run it through AI and have it
do an analysis of your revenue trends.
That's powerful stuff.
We can send to owners and stakeholdersas reports that maybe they don't want
to go through all that data and click90 times inside the software, right?

(04:44):
Oh, kind of extensibility.
Anybody else have anything thatcame across their desk this week?

I think that what is on a lot of folks is mind is the, the
Canadian travel and international travelin general, which is, like a topic
that shouldn't be full of controversy.
But it seems to be right.
But I know that we are having toreact to the demand patterns or what

(05:17):
we're seeing or we're not seeingout of our typical Canadian traffic.
Yeah, we're definitely changing wherewe're directing like our advertising
dollars and some of our messaging,but I don't, I don't know if anyone
else is is seeing the same thing.
But we are down pretty drastically.

From Canada.
Do you mean?
Okay.

I think that maybe you are disproportionately affected
because aren't you up further likein the New England area primarily?

We have, yeah, we, half of our our collection is in New England and
but we span all the way down to Georgia.
I, even our Savannah locationand maybe, Mike, I know you have
campground down there as well, but weare seeing a, like a 70% drop in the
Canadian traffic, of our snowbirds.

(06:07):
Yeah.

That's interesting because my Canadian traffic from
this winter season was actually up.

Really?

Yeah.
And I'm in Texas, so I would thinkthat Georgia and Texas are pretty.

That's so interesting.
Yeah, we have multiple Georgiacampground owners on the screen.
I'd love to hear whatother folks are seeing.

Beth Kieffer (06:28):
I don't know that we really have a Canadian following.
We don't have long term.
We only open up extended stayduring December, January and
February when we're lighting.
So Canadian traffic isn't somethingthat we would typically see
because we're not a long term park.

Yeah, sure.
Yeah.

And it doesn't just have to be a, it doesn't
just have to be long term either.
Canadians can also be here for acouple of week vacation or a quarter.

Yeah.

Brian's heard me say this a lot.
Yeah.
And Brian's heard me say this a lotof times before where, we usually
we've got good indications of what'sgoing to happen to the industry before
most people do, because every singleone of our properties is in snowbird
land, if you will, or in the south.
And we'll know middle of theyear for the following year,
what we think is going to happen.
So we saw some of the booking trendsshortening as well as weakening, way back

(07:21):
in July, August, September of last year.
And so Q1 for us was good ish.
Some of the properties were down a littlebit, but, some of the other ones grew and
so we already knew that there was Canadianissues based on the dollar in Q1 for sure,
but it's anecdotal like Katie said, where,some of the properties in California or
even Texas, aren't seeing these trends,some in the Northern states or in

(07:43):
Arizona, are so it's certainly somethingthat, you got to continue to monitor
and, as we're looking into, especially2026, and I know that sounds so silly,
how could we be looking that far out?
But we are, right?
What are those?
What's going to happen to us?
What's going to happen to the nation?
What's going to happen to tariffs?
What's going to happen with the sentiment?
And so to your point, Ali,you just have to pivot.

(08:04):
And can you replace the business?
Can you change yoursegment or strategy mix?
But it's something we all have to thinkabout because it'll affect everybody.
It's just the degree.
Is it 1%-3% or is it 15%,20% or gosh Ali said 70%.
That's significant.

Yeah.
Go ahead, Sandy, please.

I was just going to say, so some of the research
we're just finishing up kind ofcalls that observation into question
because are we losing more Canadiansand they're just not coming back?
Or are we losing ademographic, an age group?
Because one of the things that thisnew data is telling us is that we

(08:42):
are not replacing with new campersat the same rate, getting them into
outdoor hospitality and camping aswe are losing an older generation.

That's true, but that's a that's an American thing to

That.
Yeah, American and Canadian.
This is that's what I'm saying this isn'tI think we're seeing that across the board
and we may be assuming this is, hey, thesnowbirds aren't coming from Canada, but
really, how much did that opportunityor that group of people diminish
because they actually stopped camping?
They're not coming because of a tariff.

(09:15):
Understanding how we're reading thedata in 2025 is super important,
specifically because we're seeing whatwe're now coining the death of the
camper and the rise of the traveler.

I'm going to make you explain a little bit more
about your research in a second.
But I just want to close out theCanadian discussion because I don't
know if I want to devote the wholeshow to that just because we've we've
had that long discussion on Outwired.
As Ali noted, it can get somewhatcontroversial even though it shouldn't be.
And, speaking as somebody who's, livesin Canada now and is an American.

(09:47):
I think it's it's multiple things, right?
Like the Canadian dollar has beenweak through the end, like the
last six months, really, of the, of2024, of the Biden administration,
whatever you want to call it, right?
Both are the same thing, both are true.
And so I think that impacted snowbirdsa little bit over this winter.
I think more recently it is for surethe, I don't even think it's it is
some of the tariffs, but it's moreof the rhetoric of the 51st state

(10:11):
thing that has Canadians like, screwyou, we're just going to stay home.
And that's not an opinion, that'sjust what's happening, right?
And it's not just related tocampgrounds, like the day after
the tariffs were announced andthis rhetoric started, I think in
February, early February, late January.
Air Canada are a major airlines andWestJet saw bookings drop 25% overnight
like they canceled trips to the U.S.

(10:32):
25% overnight.
Tour operators are down 70%, 80%.
This is just everywhere.
They just aren't interested in partakingin what they view as the rhetoric.
And what I agree with them is rhetoric.
So I'll be the controversialone to say that.

We can't control the government, but what we can
control is who we're targeting.
And that's what I was trying to,is to make sure that we're looking
at, not just, hey, this happened,but how do we counteract that?
And I think it's by recognizing there'sa whole another target out there
that we really have not targeted.
They're naturally coming to us, butwe're not really asking them to come.

(11:10):
And so how do we increase thatto replace some of that loss?

Expand on your RV research for a second, and then let's talk about.
I think the majority of those peopleyou can get into the industry, the
easy lift is to get them to stayin your cabins and glamping because
they don't have to buy an RV.
But talk about your research.

So it's not public yet, so I can't give a lot of details.

It's about to be public.
I want you to tell all thethings and all the secrets.

It is a, we've invested about, I say we, the collective of
people who are interested in this haveinvested about $250,000 in research.
To try and see what are the things in 2025that we are going to have to do to succeed
in 2025 and beyond because we believethat we're at a point where the landscape

(12:00):
has changed so significantly from whatis a camper that if we don't begin
embracing these things and understandingsome of these changes, then we really
are just going to see a slow declinefor a lot of our parks and a lot of.
We believe a lot of this is notbecause parks don't want to change.

(12:20):
It don't want to do new things.
It's because they don't know.

They don't know.

Because nobody's hearing this data.
And so our hope is that when this datacomes out it's going to be, it's going
to be extremely beneficial to ourparks and it is going to be provided
to the parks free of charge through,first of all, the state associations.
So we're going to do a quiet pre launchat the Western States Conference.

(12:44):
There's going to be a fuller launch.
There'll be more data that's going to begiven out at the Florida, Alabama, Georgia
Conference in May, and then we'll roll itout from there because what we're doing
is taking some of these sample groups,one that's been very underserved and
one that's been served very well whenwe're thinking about as an association.
And when I say underserved, we'venever had a Western States coalition.

(13:07):
So this is the first conferenceand so we're going to, we're going
to test these things out, get somefeedback from our campgrounds.
And then from there, we're going todo final tweaks to this data and roll
it out to the industry as a whole.

I think that a couple of things here, right?
I think that, and just going to your wholeconversation, I think you're right about.
Generally speaking, we're losingcampers in an older demographic and
I don't have data to back that up.
I just have my eyes, right?
The baby boomers are retiring.
The baby boomers are unfortunatelydying as much as we like them.
But they're just not, there's notas many new people purchasing RVs.

(13:44):
We had that uptick over COVID.
Like I've said this many times.
I don't think the RV industry ever sellsas many RVs again as they did in 2019.
I just think that's a thingthat's that's gonna be there.
And so we do need to reach out to newpeople to encourage them to join the
industry I think the low hanging fruitas I said is glamping and cabin rentals

(14:04):
and even renting Trailers is a thingto renting RVs You know We talked to
a couple clients earlier this weekabout depending on where you are and
how you're impacted whether it's byCanada or the economy domestically or
whatever if you're seeing flat or low.
Maybe there's an opportunityto just increase slightly
who you allow into your park.
So instead of your hard and fast10 year rule, maybe you make an

(14:26):
11 year rule or a 12 year rule.
If it's not to let a terrible lookingRV into your park, but like just don't
be that strict and rigid because that'sextra revenue that you're turning
away that maybe you don't need to.
That has a nice RV or ifyou look at even tent sites.
Like figuring out a way to set up luxurytent sites that are higher dollar, right?

(14:46):
Where the tent is even there where theycan they don't have to do the setup.
They can just come.
And stay on a nice pad that'slandscaped and things like that.
So yeah, I think there's to your pointabout like people not having the data.
That's a part of it I think it's alsothey haven't had to think about it for
15 years because the economy has beenso good and correlating with the economy

(15:07):
starting to go up in really 2010/11 afterthe 2008/9 debacle I think that that was
the advent of social media that was inFacebook was taking off It was easy to
just go post and people would come and soI don't think people are used to this yet.
But yeah, I think theconversation needs to be started.
What do you guys think, John, Beth, Ali?

(15:27):
How's KOA doing?

KOA has a wealth of data and information across
their 550 or so franchises.
And we benefit from that.
We belong to a circle group, a group ofseven or eight other campgrounds, and
we meet on a quarterly basis, review ourfinancials, we share everything, we talk
about trends that the other campgroundsare seeing and that we are seeing.

(15:53):
And we learn a great deal from notonly the 20 group, but from I'm trying
to remember what the 20 group reportsthe reports that they produce and
our ability as Mike has suggested, wecan look out 12 months in advance and
see what our reservations look likeyear over year versus the same exact
day, previous year and see trends.

(16:15):
I think you're correct about the babyboomers, a lot of them retiring and I
hadn't really thought about we don'tsee a great deal of Canadian patrons,
but we have a few and I'm interestedto go back and look at the data and
see if we find that decreasing andit could be what you've suggested.
But we know we got to beflexible looking forward.

(16:36):
We are looking at things every day.
What can we do better?
What can we what can we institute toprovide a better camper experience
without costing us any more money?

Yeah, I think that mindset also comes from what
you, the award you won, right?
The rising star, justlooking at all those things.
Not that other campground ownersdon't do it, but I think that.
It's probably a minority,whether it's 30%, 40%, right?
But it's not 80% or 90% who aredoing what you're doing to get
to the level of a rising star.
Is that probably fair in your opinion?

I think it's fair.
If I really look, if I watch whetherit just be observational data or trend
data on reports, But what's happeningin our park, and so each year we've
been open, even though we're a newpark, we've made adjustments to small
things like pads to make it easierfor people to get around, to building
new sites, and taking old sites outthat are not performing, and giving

(17:30):
the people what they are asking for.

But you're correct.
The data that KOA provides isnot embraced by all the parks.
There are some old time franchisesthat have been in the system.
30, 40 years that kind of resent of beingtold what they need to do to succeed.
They blindly been able tosucceed over the years.
And I think the train's coming wherethese older parks that aren't willing

(17:54):
to change and adapt and improve.
They're going to facesome tough roads ahead.
I think our embrace of all the KOAprograms and support and data is
what's helped us achieve the RisingStar and what what we hope will be a
bright future continuing to embraceand support what they provide for us.

Why don't you touch briefly on, for the people who don't know,
just what the Rising Star Award is.

Rising Star Campground in the KOA franchise system is a new
campground less than five years oldthat exemplifies what KOA believes
to be a a pattern of success.
And we we fully supported allof the franchise requirements.
We, year over year, KOA comesout and they check our park.

(18:45):
They have a checklist of betweenfour and six hundred items.
They go to every cabin, every site, bugsin the light bulbs, they look at your
restrooms, they look at, micro trash,and they grade your park, and over
the years, I think we scored a perfectscore, three out of five years, and
Two years, I think we were one or twopoints from perfect, but we literally

(19:09):
embrace everything KOA provides.
And I think that's helped us.
Besides the fact we every yearwe improve our operations.
We we've upgraded sites, even thoughwe're 5 years old, we've upgraded 10
different sites to a more deluxe camperexperience from Paul Penn sites that
provide areas for their patrons pets.

(19:32):
And then more deluxe campingaccommodations where we're
seeing the older, more affluentdemographic continuing to rise.
We're seeing an increase in 4% or5% year over year when some of the
less priced accommodations weredropping and I think, that's probably
industry wide, but I think the hotelindustry is seeing the same thing.

(19:55):
The lower priced hotels are struggling,but your Ritz Carlton's and your
higher end hotels are doing very well.
But, what we're trying to do isaccommodate that trend and try to improve
the camper experience for those thatare willing to pay a little bit more.

Ali Kieffer (20:10):
It's also about listening to your campers, too.
Our NPS every time someone stays,they have a chance to rate their stay.
And by looking at those andtaking their considerations.
We are able to not only help our stafflearn what our customer is looking
for, but also our park as well.

(20:33):
We're able to do more with the offer.
And in terms of marketing, KOA reallydoes have a whole lot out there in terms
of reports of campers and new campers.
And for us on the back end, we'reable to go in and change the
market based on those reports.
And it's, For the past couple years shownreally that our demographic has switched

(20:57):
more from a regional to more of a local.
So we have changed how wemarket and that's helped us
increase our revenue as well.

And I talked about those survey results and the NPS score, and
we've always averaged 90 and above.
Last year we were at 94.
It wrote we wrote something from ninetiesto 92 to 94, and that's, that is.
People saying they really enjoyed theirstay here, which we're always told by.

Every camper gets an exit email requesting they rate our, rate their
stay in a campground, a KOA campground.
So we get a review whether or notthey enjoyed themselves or not.
And you learn more from thebad reviews than the good ones.
But we embrace that informationand try to use it to our benefit.

I think it's an,

I'm sorry, go ahead, Brian.

No, go ahead, please.

I was just going to say, the one thing that's different
about you at a KOA is as a part of aKOA franchise, you're trained on what
to do and how to do those things.
You also have some technologybehind you that's helping do
that for so many of the parts.
Every property management softwarehas an email that you can send
out to ask for a review, right?

(22:09):
But if nobody is doing anythingwith that, or you're not
trained how to respond to that.

Or nobody knows it exists to turn the button on to say

It means absolutely nothing.
And I so value KOA and how they're willingto share all of their research each year.
With the rest of us so that we cangrow, but I'm going to give a shout out
to Ali to I will say full disclosure.
I totally respect her andeverything she's done.

(22:38):
My opinion might be a little bit jaded,but she hasn't seen the data that we've
been working on in the research, butthe outcome of this research shows
that she is doing everything rightfor the new rising traveler, and we're
calling them travelers now, we'regoing to shift that language, we hope.

(22:58):
To be successful because all of the thingsthat have that are value propositions for
them are actually embraced in her park.
So she has the right price point.
She's not over amenitized, butshe is absolutely representing
the outdoor lifestyle.
And they are looking forthose kind of things.

(23:20):
These things resonate with them.
But I don't know if you're actuallytargeting that demographic, Ali.
I don't know if you'redoing anything like that.
But that is who they're looking for.
And so if they're looking foryou, how do we help you find them
and bring more of those to you?
Because.
I liken it to a church.
If you walk into a church andthere's only a bunch of old people

(23:40):
there and they don't even have anursery, that church is dying, right?
And so if you go into a campground andall you have is old people, that might be
fine if you've only got 35 sites and youdon't want to grow, but if you've got 400
sites and you've got to fill all those 400sites and all you've got is old people.
They're dying off.

(24:01):
You have got to replace.
And that is like a key findingthat we're seeing is that we
are not replacing campers.
We have got to pull from the travelers.
We've got to embrace the travelersand we've got to be replacing
some of these older campers.
If we want to continue to succeed.

I want to make sure that I just throw out a positive sentiment
here, Sandy, because we're workingon the longevity thing with AI.
Like we might solve that and make thebaby boomers live another 60 years.

Hey look, I can talk about old people
because I am an old people, okay?

Ali, do you want to comment on any of that?

Which Ali are we?

Sorry, Ali who Sandy was referencing from Spacious Skies.

Oh, okay, I actually didn't know which Ali you were
referencing at the time, Sandy.
So to respond you know what?
I think that we are trying to focus ontrying to appeal to the broadest customer
base which is in part, not necessarilyabout highlighting very specific

(25:10):
attributes of the physical things ofa property but more the vibe the human
to human elements the yeah, it's lessabout what I think we were looking at
promoting during the high pandemic years,which was really very Instagram focused

(25:34):
type of just the experiential natureof it but focused on those physical
elements those hard tangibles whenreally, we are trying to focus on the
intangibles and how we make people feeland how we bring and welcome and invite.
Is that what you meant, Sandy?

No, I think that what you've done with Spacious
Skies really takes us back to thecore of what camping used to be.

I think yeah.
I think that's right.
And took me a second to, get back there.
I'm not going to pretend like Ididn't come blasting into this
industry thinking that I was going todo, this and that to change things.
But I think you're absolutely right.
And we had to get there.
We like camping is uncomplicated andwhat has been enjoyed for decades

(26:24):
and decades is like still what is.
is so great about it.
So yeah.

What we saw during covid was the rise of a lot of people
coming into the industry who reallydidn't understand our industry and a
lot of the hotel investors coming in.
And so we ended up with a lotof really great resorts that
are very over amenitized.

Yeah.

But that is that diluted the idea of what the
real camping experience was like.
And KOA did a great job of maintainingthat to some extent, even to the
extent that I think KOA is one ofthe only campgrounds that still
requires you to do tent camping.

That's, I want to address that because so many new parks
are, in my opinion, exclusionary.
They want to provide a 65 footconcrete pad with a deluxe
fire ring and nothing else.
We've got a park that'sgot four deluxe tent sites.
We've got basic sites that are allgravel that are very inexpensive.

(27:27):
We've got more expensivethey call them standard sites
that are middle of the road.
We've got deluxe cabins.
So if you've got a family groupwith, maybe you've got some
family members that don't campand they want to stay in a cabin.
And you've got some young kidsthat want to stay in a tent site.
And you've got the grandparents thathave a really nice deluxe motor home.
We can accommodate themall in our campground.

(27:49):
And we found that to be very beneficial.
We see it all the time.
We wouldn't win the support of thosegroups if we weren't able to offer all
those different types of accommodation.

And I think it's important to say to like we
talk a lot about experientialhospitality and the experience.
The experience is not a box check thatI have a concrete pad that's 65 foot.
It's not a box check that Ihave a miniature golf course.
It's the brand, the experienceto Ali at Spacious Skies to Mike
at CRR who just came back on.
I was going to say he jumped off.

(28:20):
Welcome back.
Mike.
We were just talking nice about you so

I don't believe in it.
It feels like you're shaming all my highlyamenitized campgrounds with concrete pads.

You tell a story, don't you Mike?
You emphasize service.
You emphasize quality alongside that.
That's what's different.

That's right.

Yeah.
And I think the experientialhospitality, I'm actually teaching a
class on Monday exactly about, aboutthat topic, which is, the campground,
and it's no different than a hotel.
It's the physical structure, right?
But the customer, the guest, orin Sandy's word, the traveler.
Is coming for the experience, the, and sothat's whatever kind of campgrounds you
are and I wouldn't call us exclusionary.

(29:00):
I would call us we're niche, right?
It's no different than a boutique hotelor a full service hotel that maybe doesn't
accommodate a particular kind of, guest.
And there's places for all thecampgrounds, whether you're tent
camping or glamping or larger parksor amenitized parks or not parks.
Whatever experience you're providing forwhatever customer and segment demographic
you're going after, it's really thatexperience that touches on that.

(29:22):
But I also, Brian, I want to go back tosomething that John alluded to earlier,
and, we talked about KOA having greattools, but, I'm not sure, and I can't
speak for John, why they won this award.
I don't know.
It's because they have great tools.
It's probably because they have curiosityand whatever park you are, whether you're
KOA or another one is really interesting.

(29:43):
I did a revenue management sessiona couple months ago, and we had
asked the entire room for a survey,who forecast more than 90 days out.
And there's 100 people and only4 raised their hand, which was
really, it wasn't surprising to me.
It just shows me that there's opportunityand that those four folks have, a
lot of curiosity and to Sandy's pointearlier about, campgrounds don't evolve.

(30:03):
If campground owners don'tevolve, what does that look like?
And I do think, it needs to continueto be a topic in the industry.
Next week, Ali and I Ali SpaciousSkies, Ali and I will be at Ohio
Connect, which is their first regionalevent of its kind for a smaller group.
And one of the main topicsis exactly that curiosity.
Which is also one of CRR's values,but trying to help park owners and

(30:27):
park managers understand, whatever itis, whether it's you losing Canadian
travelers, what do you do to offset,whether it's, the demographics
changing and all the baby boomers.
Let's say they're just retiring.
Let's not say they're dying.
And how do you pivot?
And so I think that's really what,Sandy and some of the other group are
talking about earlier is how do wehelp, fellow campground owners and

(30:49):
managers exercise that curiositymuscle, so that they can evolve whatever
circumstance they're dealing with,whether it's a demographic segmentation.
Yeah, particular type of customer profile.
So anyway, I just wanted tofollow up on that from earlier.
I thought it was really interesting.
And Ali and I will betalking about that next week.

I want to play devil's advocate for a second and be a
little bit more controversialbecause I started the show that
way, but I'm curious what you think.
Is it possible?
Like we know we can teach ownersto view the data, to look at
the data, to read the reports.
Is it possible to teach curiosity?
Because I view it as likecritical thinking, right?
It's something very similar to that.

(31:26):
Is it possible?

I think curiosity is something that's incredibly difficult.
I think it's either ingrained in you orit's something that just isn't because
I see it in the campground industry.
I see it in my previous academic career.
And you see it over and over again, thepeople who are going to be successful,
the people who are going to be motivatedto try to make this customer experience

(31:48):
or try to succeed in an academicpaper that they're writing, like
they're going to have this curiosity.
And I think that's actually, it'ssomething that I don't think you
can train, but I think that it'ssomething that is incredibly important
if you're going to succeed longterm,especially in something that's as
competitive as the campground industry.

I don't think you can train for it, but I
think you can hire for it.
And that's all aboutbuilding the right tool.

Yeah, but if you can't train for it, then you, then the
pool of people that are availablefor you to hire from is very small.

Oh, I don't think so.
I think that you get, thereare, I think there's a balance
of all personality types.
And when you understand where yourimbalance is based on your personality
types that are on your team, youhave to figure out how to hire and
where to hire to balance your team.

That's true.

You can't have a whole bunch of accountants who are all
about their head down in the, in thebooks and the numbers, you've got to
have some visionaries who are going tochallenge that and say, what about this?
What about this?
People like me who refuse to shut up.

But would you argue that you have to have a natural curiosity to
even know that you have gaps to fill?

Yes.

I totally agree.
You have to, if you're going to be abusiness owner and you're going to employ
it, even one more person, you have to belooking at it as a, what are the other
puzzle pieces to make this team whole.
But I think that and Katie, I didn't knowthat you were in academia before, but I
know from marketing and human behaviorand consumer behavior principles, I think

(33:19):
that, it's leaders or folks that get onpodcasts in this industry like we could
even stand to try and message or trickpeople into being open to things like
being curious and in critical thinkingand digging deeper because it's that
it's the rising tides concept lift.

(33:40):
We all have to do it.
We all have to, you don't get beon the same level to, continue
to succeed in this space.
And I have a,
A well just to finish this part of theconversation, but I have a specific
question that I'd love to ask everybody.

Okay, I want to go ahead, Katie.

Oh, no, I was I was at the national school at the end of
February and I was talking to LarryBrownfield and he was telling me about
this one time he was going to checka KOA, of course, and he was early.
He was sitting in his car and oneof the really young employees.
I think he said she was like a teenager.
She came up, she drove up and as shewas getting out of her car, she bent

(34:23):
down and she picked up a piece of trashand then she looked around and she like
picked up something else off the ground.
And then as she was going into theoffice, she just put it in the trash
and something that really struck himwas like, wow, the owner has done
a really good job at training hisstaff, like what the expectations are.
And so I guess going back to curiosity,I wonder if it's, maybe you don't need

(34:45):
to have somebody who has curiosity foreverything, but maybe you just need,
you need to be curious enough to set theexpectations that other people can follow.

That.
Yes.
Because the pool ofcurious people is small.
Like I, I lean towardwhat you guys are saying.
I think I agree with you that it'sprobably close to impossible to
train somebody is not curious orhas not deployed critical thinking
in their lives to become that.
Now I'm going to try that andprove it wrong at my company.
Like we're actually developing all coursewith AI to try to teach people critical

(35:15):
thinking, and we're going to let all ouremployees take it and see if it works.
So I'll have data after that point.
I hope I'm wrong.
But yeah, that pool of peopleI think it starts from the top
down, like Ali was saying, and ifyou're the curious one at the top,
which not all business owners are.
In fact, I would say mostof them probably aren't.
And that's not saying anythingbad about those business owners.
It's just a type of person.

(35:37):
You can be successful without beingcurious, but curiosity helps you
be successful, especially in a timewhere we're in right now, like where
everything's changing so rapidly.

Indeed.
Eric was lucky that he marriedsomebody curious, and I can say
that because he's not going to,he's not going to watch this.

I'm dying to know what your question is, Ali.

Okay I actually have to wait.
Can I ask you, John, Beth andAli, I would love to know.
What you all think the main things arethat other KOA franchisees long, long
time franchisees are really resistant to?

What we hear, and we hear this through feedback at the
convention and also through our 20 group.
And of course we have ambassadors,they call them brand ambassadors
that come to our campgroundonce a year and they grade us.
But as a brand, my own opinion is thatAll KOA should seek to raise the standard,

(36:39):
the quality the camper experience.
And as a personal example, we've hadpeople stay with us that have never
camped before, and then they'll goon the road and they'll stay at other
KOAs That may be 30 or 40 years old andhave not upgraded their infrastructure.
They don't have the power, still

But are still passing inspection?

But barely.
And and so that, they make the70, the barely passing mark.
And and it, we really need to raisethe entire brand so that across
the country, if somebody stays at aKOA campground and they don't have
a good experience, that hurts us.
They may not choose to paya little more and stay at a

(37:18):
campground in Blue Ridge, Georgia.
That's a KOA franchise.
So.

It goes back to that curiosity, that business owner and
what that business owner really wants.
And whether or not they are willing to gothe extra mile to put in that extra work.

Instead of curiosity, I see that as a competitive attitude.
The day we found this property and choseto design the park and build it, we wanted
to see it be the best park in the region.
And we've maintained that attitudeand we continue to maintain it.
It's a competition.
We want to succeed.
Not only for our own personal interest,but because you take a lot of pride

(37:56):
in all the effort and ambition andthe time that you devote your life.
Devotion to this, and youwant to see it succeed.

Ali, another response to your question is that some people
come into this thinking that they'rejust gonna open up spots and people
will come because it's a campground.
And for, in many cases, especially theones that are on the highway, they will.
Not that they'll maybe enjoy it becausemaybe it's not as nice or whatever, but

(38:27):
to have upgrade and do these things, youdo have to have that entrepreneurial,
that business financial sense.
And I don't know when we hear negativesabout we don't want to from owners that
don't want to upgrade or don't want.
It's going to be because itcosts them too much money.
They don't have the money to do it.

(38:48):
And so it's how do you meet the grade orhow do you meet the expectation without
money or what else you do to be ableto bring another area so that you're
getting points in another area and,you have to work on that over a five
year plan, but I just feel like it's.

(39:09):
I don't want to say lack of businesssense or the entrepreneurial.

It's lack of curiosity is exactly what it is.
So what John was saying about curiosityand competitiveness, if you put people,
if you put business owners in a roomwho are all curious, I bet you 98
percent of them are also competitive.

That's why we love our KOA because all of them are curious,
all of them are competitive, butthey have an open mind, open spirit.

But if you also likewise put all those KOA owners who are not changing
in a room, It's not unique to KOA.
I bet you most 98 percent ofthose people are also not curious.
It's not a KOA thing.
It's a resistance to changeand not being curious thing.

Okay, I'm gonna ask my other question because
it's what I constantly obsess overand I would just love to know how
everybody else is thinking about it.
We've already touched on it, right?
Like we have a population who makesup or has historically made up such a
large segment of our customer bases andit is they're aging out and, how are
we replacing that, that customer base?

(40:14):
How are we bringing the youngergenerations and demographics into
this type of recreation and leisure?
And I'm trying to like put it into wordsthat doesn't, that don't sound rude,
but my, I'm a millennial and then we'vegot, Gen Z and younger generations.
And I think that, like whensomething is too difficult or

(40:37):
like physically difficult to do.
My generation and younger tend tojust think of it as more of a barrier.
And I grew up, camping.
I'm assuming most of us, we're allin the industry because we like it.
And I liked, I always liked, hiking tothe camping, to the campsite and pitching
the tent and it's and putting in the workto start the fire and cook your food.

(41:00):
And then, we get an RV and it'syou got to work hard for the
fun and for the relaxation.
You got to, get there and then you gotto pack yourself in, you hook yourself
up and set it all up and whatever.
And it's it's fun, but it's effort.
And I think that, our younger generationsare like more and more resistant to
effort, especially physical effort.
And we live in this virtual world.

(41:22):
But we obviously need tobring in new customers.
We need to create new customers tocreate the new demand and I know what
like we do in our messaging and in ourexperience and what not to continue
to convert non campers into campers.
But, we're just like one little company.

(41:44):
And one little brand,15 little campgrounds.
I think that this is obviouslysuch an industry wide effort
that needs to take place.
We all need to be runningin the same direction on it.
And I think that when it comes tothe RVing side of things, I look
at tenting as like the gateway.
The gateway drug into camping, but, wewant RVers, want more and more RVers.

(42:06):
And as an RV owner, I know just if youare even like a degree, less tolerant
of problem solving with the things that,break down or are required of you to
hook your rig in to, to enjoy your time.
Like I, I think that, and Sandy,I know, this intimately, like the
conversations and the collaborationbetween, campground owners and RV

(42:30):
manufacturers, just like needs tosolidify more and more to, make sure
that they are rolling out products that.
Our shared guest base, our futurecampers who are not yet campers,
will be tolerant of not only usingactually purchasing and owning.
And there's a whole, like justa tangent to go down, with the

(42:52):
concept of like ownership andphysical places to put a rig.
If actually do end up purchasing one.
Anyway, how does everybodyapproach like creating new
customers to build your demand?

Can I take that as a non campground owner for a second?
And then you get to thereal answers that matter.
I think it's interesting to me becauseyou're right, tenting is a gateway drug.
But I think we will take RVers and wewant to encourage people to buy RVs.
But I think there's a more completepicture of we just want people to camp.
And if that's in a cabin, if that'sglamping, if that's an RV rental,
if that's a luxury tent from a bat.

(43:25):
And so I think that, that definitionof a gateway drug should be expanded.
Although RVing should notget lost in there at all.
That's critical, right?
And then I think to your point about,like, where their hard work and physical
work and all that you put into place,I think you're correct, but I think
it's the opposite of the curiosity.
I think it's teaching thempassion for something.

Yes, it has a lot to do with education.
Yes.

Yeah, and so it's the same like Earl does at Black Folks Camp Too.

Yes.

But it's with all demographics, right?
There's so many people.
That just don't understand all thethings that the outdoors can bring them.
And so I think you very much cantreat, train and teach passion.
Absolutely.
But we've got to tell a story that doesn'talways involve purchasing $100,000 rig.
Sometimes it does, but we'vegot to tell the whole story.

ARVIC or now OHI went through that a couple years ago, right?
When they did their rebrand.
And I think that same year I think thatit was probably Larry again, honestly,
because I go to every Larry talk.
But Larry was also saying look,we're at an inflection point.
And so now is the time where youneed to do some kind of pivoting
are there, or your business isgoing to, you know, suffer from it.
And basically attacking on to what Briansays is yeah, we have been working to

(44:38):
widen what camping can be for people.
I personally think that I resonatea little bit with you were Hey,
like we're trying to be in nature.
We're trying to go back, likewe're trying to disconnect.
So that's something that I have alwaysworked really hard for in my campgrounds.
Not necessarily to be like a resort,but to be like a, a place where
you can disconnect, relax, chill.
Traveling is actually so stressful.

(44:59):
Being in the RV park, being in thecampground should not be stressful.
So that's something that I'm workingon actively is like getting more
cabins, having more tent sites,like having more avenues for travel.
Also, something that I think isunderrated, and I'm always surprised, is
guys, have bathhouses for your customers.
Because that is something thatmakes people so much more likely to

(45:20):
want to go camping if they're notintimidated by these camper bathrooms.
I'm always shocked by howmuch of a thing that is.
But actually, my real questionfor you, Ali, is you were talking
specifically about RVing, correct?

Yes, but I definitely agree that like the
definition or rather who you are.
We are targeting and bringing in,we are not the type of company that
is gonna turn away car campers or,

Yeah, me either.

Like Van Lifers or Schoolies or anything like that.
Come one, come all.
So yeah.

Everybody's money is good money, right?

Everybody's money.

Especially like if they wanna be outside and they wanna be
enjoying like the same thing that weenjoy and they wanna be doing s'mores and
stuff, like that's what it's all about.

Totally.

It's not about how expensive your rig is, but something that I think
is interesting and something that I'veseen popping up like more around me is
that RV parks are offering like firstsetup type stuff where they like the
camper will get their RV, they cometo the campground and they do these
little like teaching moments with them.

(46:23):
Which my manager is like amazing andhe will do that with anybody anytime,
no matter what like he lives for it.

Yeah.

I think that kind of thing is something that has
such a value add that you put adollar amount on that because then
they have an emotional tie to you.
You've helped them set up their RV,now they have a life skill that's
gonna help them for years to come andit's really not that intimidating,
once you've done it a few times.

But it helps with the passion, right?
There's a fork in the road whenthey're the first time camper there.
It's my first camping experiencegoing to be like, how the f***
do I hook up this sewer thing?
I'm struggling with it fortwo hours or it's done for me.
And now I can enjoy my experienceand further my passion.

And you're taught to do it while it is getting done.
Yes, absolutely.
And Katie, I totally agree.
And before we like fully advertise,that hands on help, I have to make
sure that, like our insurance covering.

Yeah.
That's because I was gonnaactually ask about that.

Does anybody know?

Yeah.

Because I know that we're not helping anybody back in
their trailer, I'll tell you that much.

Right, right, right, right.

This research that I was talking about actually
is the first time we've ever doneanything that's all inclusive.
That includes the RV industry as well.
And so we're looking atwhat is their impact on us?
What is our impact on them?
But one of the interesting things thatwe've been doing for four years now
is partnering parks with dealerships.

(47:45):
And we teach the dealerships howto do what we call a maiden voyage.
And so what they'll do is they'llcome out and they'll do, they will
send out to all of their people thatare looking to buy a rig or have just
bought a rig and say, Hey, we're doinga maiden voyage at this campground.
We try to teach them to do itbetween Tuesday and Thursday

(48:06):
because that's our lower occupancy.
They're marketing to local people.
And then that's exactly what they do.
They bring them in.
And they teach them a 2nd time.
How do you hook up your stinky slinky?
What do you do when theslide won't come in?
All of some of the basic kind ofthings that they need to know.
And it, for the parts that I'vehad doing that, it's amazing.

(48:26):
They get their midweeks filled up.
The dealerships love it because they'regetting to market, to a different group.
That's not necessarily in their database.
And this is, I'm passionate about twothings and I will say, in my defense,
I am not against high end resortsand I love all of Mike's parks.
But I am, but right now, my passion,because we're so deep in this research

(48:47):
is about replacing what we are losingand then building communication bridges
between all aspects of our ecosystem.
And so

Which requires curiosity.

Yeah.
We have to proactively do these things.
If we're going to succeed in 2025 andbeyond, because what the industry does
impacts us and what we do impacts them.
And we're never talking to each other.

But I think stopping here at just the let's do the hookups,
which is a great thing, right?
That so many parks aren't doing orjust stopping at the let's talk to
the RV dealership about the first,I can't remember what you called it.
It was something really good.

The maiden voyage.

I'll remember it.
First journey experience, right?
But let's be curious even more how elsecan we foster a passion for the outdoors
through the activities at our campground?
Like I still remember when I was startingout, like I was, I bootstrapped my
whole company and we were on the roadworking, like doing videos of KOAs so
many years ago, I went to the NaturalBridge KOA and I think it's changed

(49:46):
ownership like eight times since I wasthere like 2011/12, but they're used to
the owner's brother used to work thereand there was a little like old fire
pit at the entrance, like one of thoseold stone, like pizza oven type things.
It was super old.
And he used to teach people how toforage and cook food and survive.
And that was one of theiractivities at the campground.

(50:06):
And that can also generatea passion for the outdoors.
And so I think there's a bigopportunity for owners when they're
even planning your activities.
Like an ice cream social is great,but maybe you could be more curious.

I think another way too, and we've started playing around with
this, is social media influencers.
Because if you have someone come intoyour park and take great videos of not
only your park, but of the surroundingareas, and they can post that for you on
their socials, all of their viewers andtheir new viewers are going to see that
and they're going to want that experience.

Brian, to your thoughts, though, too, as far as what can we
do to improve the camper experience?
The campground and the amenities areone thing, but we've started bringing
in food trucks on Friday nights whenpeople have been driving all day, and
they can, instead of having to get outthe pots and pans and cook, they can walk
up, have an adult beverage food truck.

(51:03):
We have fly fishing lessons on Saturdaymornings that don't cost us any money.
We have a musician that comes and plays.
We have a wine tour company that'llcome and pick people up and drop
them back off at the campground.
None of that costs us any money,but it improves the experience
of the people that stay with us.

Now you just need to tie that deeper to the outdoors.
We need the food truck to be like a fearfactor experience, so they like foraging
for the bugs and the protein and the

No, it's not-

Lust or a passion for the survivalist.

A little bit of mushroom roulette, if you will.

Yeah,

We're almost out of time.
So I want to go around and just giveeverybody a chance to give final thoughts
on anything you want to talk about.
Anybody want to volunteer to start?

I'll start just an observation.
When we were at the San Antonioconvention, Larry Bramble, who was brought
up earlier, I'm sorry, had a conversationwith him about, the new park construction,
during COVID and during the camping boom,everybody thought it would be great to
build a campground, make a lot of money.

(52:10):
They really didn't understand whatit takes to build a campground.
In 2024, KOA started with 66 prospectssites all over the United States that
people had an interest in trying to buildby the end of the year, that was down to
six by the time they ran the financialsand they ran the cost of construction

And the physical labor.

And the physical labor.
Everything's more expensive.
That he was saying that sitecosts are now averaging $60,000
a campsite to build them.
That's more than double what we spent.
So the impediments and theobstacles to enter the industry
now with a new park are very steep.

(52:54):
And it's going to driverates further and further up.
And my concern is we're gonnadrive people out of the market.
People can't afford.
So whatever we can do as an industryto welcome the younger campers
that can't afford to go out andbuy a $30,000 travel trailer.
But if we can do things to accommodatethem, I think our industry benefits.

This some of that cost of site build, though, have to do with the
type of site you're like, if you're notbuilding a luxury RV site, because we
did this crazy thing on our Outwiredshow last week, where we went from $5
to a trillion dollars and took thatjust through a campground ownership.
And one of the things that saidto start with was just rustic, out
in the woods, camping without thefacilities start like cheaply build.

That number is inclusive of our camp store, very nice
deluxe bath house, pool amenities.
We did all blacktop, throughout and someof our sites are all concrete, but we
do have a good many of them that aregravel and it was the overall average.
If we took our, a little over threemillion dollar cost of construction

(53:58):
and divided it out by our 95 sites.
We came in a little bit over $30,000 fiveyears ago, five and a half years ago,

Okay.
Who's next?
Nobody?
Pick.
Sandy.
Go ahead.

I would just want to echo that for any of the parks that
are listening in the, I think one ofthe most important things you can do so
far this year is begin looking at howyou're going to on board new guests.
How do you bring new guests into yourpark to replace the ones who're leaving.
Everything is going to circle around that.
All the other things we'relearning is going to tie into that

Good advice.
Katie.

Yeah, no, something that resonates with me and that I'm
hearing a lot is like the returnback to nature, the return back to
like old school camping, if you will.
So, how can you make an experience that'sunique to your campground that also
gets people back in touch with nature.
So whether it be the fly fishing,whether it be learning how to forage
for food, whether it be a fishingtournament whether it be maybe some

(55:04):
kind of like treasure hunt where itgets people out and exploring your
property and getting back to nature.
I think that we need to find a way toget our guests to disconnect and to come
back to nature and to come back to just,I guess, the outdoors and it's really
exploring and enjoying the outdoors.
And that way we can build a Iguess like a community that way.

That's easy.
Like we just spent the last15 years in the wrong place.
Don't be able to upgrade their wifi.
Just turn it off.

That's true.

What's "turning off"?
Yeah, no, I can just add onto what everybody has said for
sure, and Katie just ended withthe perfect word, community.
I think in addition to, the return tonature and wanting to disconnect and
escape I think that, COVID did not do usany favors when it comes to community.

(55:56):
And like we were literally kept apart.
And we were encouraged tonot physically interact.
And I think that, in part contributed tothe messaging of just if you're going to
come camping, it is this experience thatis all about, like amenities and features
and like devoid of like other people.

(56:17):
Yes, there's like service elements of it,but I know that at Spacious Skies, like
we are really like working really hardto build a friendly, like human to human,
just a high connection type experiencewith others, like other people in nature.

(56:37):
So that you're not expecting to comecamping and just be in your own little
silo on your own site, it is all about,coming to the campground and who you're
going to see and who you're going to hangout with and who you're going to meet
and who you're going to commune with.
And I think that is something thatwe're hungry for and that I know that
younger generations are hungry for notjust folks with families or who are

(57:02):
retired and looking for that second wind.
No, I think it's, I think it's everybody.
Everybody is hungry foractual human connection.

I think it's just reaching them and teaching them what they're,
sorry I didn't mean to cut you off.
I do, are you finished or

I am now.

Okay.
I'm sorry.
I apologize.
You were delayed on my end.
I think you're right though.
I think it's it, I think everybody,whether you're young generation,
old generation, whateverstill has available passion.
I think the, and I was watching becauseI'm a geek, I was watching just an
AI video that gave a chart that justtalks about this last night that talked
about the information overload thatwe have in the last 10, 20 years,

(57:41):
the more of it on social, the moreof it on blogs, the more of it on
website content, the more of it on TV.
Everybody's basically got a cabletelevision in there, pocket right here.
And the graph was basically saying themore information that comes, the less
attention is on specific information.
So I think the willingness to havea passion for the outdoors is there.
I think people just are distractedand have their passion fragmented

(58:01):
in so many other places.
And that doesn't meanthose places are wrong.
They're wrong for us.
And it's certainly I'm a bigadvocate of the outdoors.
And I think that people can betrained to have that passion.
We just have to focus on thinking outsidethe box and reaching them where they are.

Great.

Yeah, absolutely.

All right thank you guys for being here for another
episode of MC Fireside Chats in 55minutes, I have another show in case
you're bored and want to hear me talkmore for two hours with Scott Bahr.
Where we're going to dive into some data.
We're going to talk about what arewe going to talk about today, Lisa?
I can't remember.
Something about campers and howthey're viewing how they want to
see parks react and be talked to ifthey're willing to come this year.
It's a whole lot more than that.
I did a terrible job at it, but.

(58:40):
I'll be here in about 55minutes talking about that.
Other than that, thank youguys for joining us on another
episode of MC Fireside Chats.
I really appreciate all of you joiningus Ali Katie Sandy John and your family,
that's too small to read your names.
I have bad eyes.
Sorry.
One of them is Ali.
I remember that.
Beth, okay.
Yes.
It's just, it's super small on my screen.

(59:00):
I'm sorry, Beth.
Nothing against you.
Thank you all for joining us.
I think it was a great discussion.
Katie, we'd love to haveyou back on sometime.
I'm sorry we didn't get to talkmore about Quilly's RV Parks.

Oh yeah, that's fine.
There's a lot to talk about.

Appreciate it.
And we'll see you guys nextweek on another episode.

Thanks, everyone.

Thank you.

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MC Fireside Chats - March 19th, 2025

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}MC Fireside Chats - March 19th, 2025