MC Fireside Chats - March 5th, 2025

The March 5, 2025, episode of MC Fireside Chats featured an insightful discussion on key industry trends and challenges, with host Brian Searl joined by recurring guests and new participants. The panel included Miguel Huerta from the Mexican Glamping Association, Simon Neal from Camp Map, Rafael Correa from Blue Water, Matt Whitermore an Outdoor Hospitality Professional, Shari Heilala from Sage Outdoor Hospitality, and Mark Koep, among others. The conversation revolved around the impact of major events, shifting travel patterns, and data-driven strategies for success in the outdoor hospitality industry. Miguel Huerta highlighted the significance of the 2026 FIFA World Cup, which will be hosted across Mexico, Canada, and the U.S., emphasizing the immense potential for campgrounds, glamping sites, and RV parks to capitalize on the surge in tourism. He noted the high demand for alternative accommodations as hotel prices skyrocket, advising operators to begin preparations now. Rafael Correa weighed in on pricing strategies, warning against excessive rate hikes that could deter future guests, and stressed the importance of maintaining value propositions. Simon Neal, offering a European perspective, pointed out that demand for World Cup accommodations will come in waves—early planners booking far in advance and last-minute travelers willing to pay a premium. He emphasized the need for campgrounds to be flexible and ready to accommodate a range of visitors. Rafael added that major events create displacement effects, meaning people who might otherwise visit certain areas could be looking for alternative travel experiences, further benefiting the outdoor hospitality sector. The conversation then shifted to the broader state of the industry. Rafael shared insights from Blue Water’s portfolio, noting a rise in long-term stays, a decline in transient RV bookings, and continued strong demand for vacation rentals and glamping. He attributed the shrinking booking window to guests becoming more accustomed to dynamic pricing and greater availability in the post-pandemic landscape. Shari Heilala supported these observations, highlighting the importance of data in making informed pricing and marketing decisions. A key discussion point was the growing role of long-term stays, not just among full-time RVers but also as a solution to housing affordability issues. Shari pointed out that many people are opting for RV living due to rising housing costs, particularly in regions like Phoenix, where renting a travel trailer is a cost-effective alternative. Brian challenged the assumption that RV owners struggle with housing affordability, but the panelists clarified that many individuals are choosing RV life as a primary living arrangement rather than a leisure activity. Simon Neal provided a European perspective, explaining that while long-term stays are not a major factor in Europe, seasonal migration from northern to southern regions remains strong. However, uncertainty in the market has made travelers more hesitant to book in advance. Mark Koep added that demand for long-term RV stays is particularly high in areas with significant industrial and economic development, such as Texas and Arizona, where workers need flexible, short-term housing solutions. Concerns over international travel trends were also raised, with Miguel revealing that searches for flights from Mexico to the U.S. had dropped by 10%. Similar declines were observed in Canadian cross-border travel, attributed to economic conditions and geopolitical tensions. However, Simon remained optimistic that people will still prioritize travel, even if their habits shift toward regional destinations. Shari emphasized the importance of data-driven decision-making, noting that while past data is helpful, predicting future trends remains challenging due to economic uncertainty and external factors such as inflation and potential national park closures. She recommended operators take a...

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
WelcomeevereybodyoanotherepisodeofMCFiresideChats. Myname
is name is Brian Searl withInsider excitedtobeherewithyouall.
Forourfirstweekepisode,wehaveacouplerecurringguestsjoininguswho couldn'tjoinuslastweekor
lastmonth.Ifeel likethewholecrew wasalmostmissing.Sowe
gotMiguelHuertaherefromtheMexicanGlamping Association.WehaveSimonNealfromCampMap.Simon,you're
feelingbetter.I hopeyou'renotstillonyour deathbedfrom.

(00:20):
No, I'm good.
Rafael's here from Blue Water.Welcome, sir. Excited to have you
as a recurring guest. I'm surewe'll have some good conversations.
Got Matt Whitemore, who'sbasically like a podcast host, too.
I made. I think I'll just turnover the show to him, Lisa, and we'll
probably leave Matt's. We talkabout your new podcast, Matt. I want
to hear about that and some ofthe cool things you have going on.

(00:40):
Good to meet you. And thenShari, I know we've met before, but
from Sage Outdoor Hospitality,excited to dig into some data and
insights with you potentiallyduring this show. So is there anything
for my recurring guests? Iknow this is our first episode together
of this new format of trendsand insights and things like that.
We're missing our big dataguy, Scott Bar,who'sactuallyinArizonatoday,Ithink

(01:01):
attheRVIAmeetings.Andsohe'sgoingto be
ontheshowbriefly.Ourothershowoutwired inaboutan
hour Outwired in aboutsomeofthat stuff,buthe'smissingtoday.SoSheilaor
Shari,you'llhave tofill inwithforhim.Andwe'lltalk aboutsomedataandinsights
andtrends.Butisthereanythingelsethat'scomeacross yourguysasdas?Miguel,Simon,Rafael
isourkindofrecurringgueststhatyouthinkwe shouldtalkaboutasafirstpoint

(01:24):
oforder?No.Everybody'sgonnabe quiet.What?
What I was telling the guysbefore. Hello, everyone that is watching
the show is that at least herein Mexico, 2025, it's, it's the year
where we are investing onlaying out the foundation for 2026.

(01:44):
2026, we will be hostingMexico, Canada and the U.S. the World
cup, which is probably one ofthe most important events that drive
tourism to certain locations.And so I think that's a huge trend
that it's already happening.
Well, tell us more about it.You can't leave us hanging, right?

(02:05):
You tell us like the title ofthe name and what it's going to accomplish.
That's. You set yourself highfor a goal here, Miguel. So tell
us what we're looking forward to.
Yeah, sure. Definitely. For,uh, the people in the audience that
they don't know about theWorld cup, this is the super bowl
for soccer or football, as wewould like to call it in the rest
of the world. And it drives somany attendees. For example, Mexico,

(02:30):
last, in the last edition,it's held every four years. Last
time it was held in Qatar andMexico sent a little bit over 60,000
people. So can you imaginethere in Mexico, we have three host
cities. Canada has, I thinkone in Toronto and the States, I

(02:51):
think that it has a little bitover 10 cities that will be hosting
the event. And 64 nations,they compete for the most prestigious
trophy, which is the World cuptrophy. And they just announced that
Coldplay will be hosting orwill be part of the celebrations.
But my point is that to thepeople that are in the outdoors industry,

(03:13):
a lot of movement will be heldduring the summer of 2026. And not
too many people, they havecatered their businesses towards
that. I know a lot of peoplethat they will be renting RVs, driving
across the States, Mexico andCanada to watch the games. I know

(03:34):
lots of people that they, thehotels right now, they're, they,
the rates are huge. In placeslike New York, it's at least $500
a night. And the. I. I alreadyknow as a fact that the availability
for rooms in New York forsummer 2026, it's quite limited by

(03:55):
now. So a lot of people, theywere looking at alternative option
like lamping sites, campingsites, RV parks. And that's something
that not a lot of people havediscussed out in the open, and that's
huge. But before that, 2025,it's again, it's a year where we
will be laying foundation.There's a lot of consolidation in

(04:18):
the market with, with theinterest rates being as high as they
are. A lot of people, they areleaving the industry because sadly,
they were not as prepared asthey should. So my point is that
it's a consolidation year, ayear where we'll lay out Sundays
and shows like this. It willprovide a lot of insight to everyone

(04:40):
in the industry. I know. Whatdo you think about that?
I have two questions realquick and one, I wanted you to explain
football for our Americanfriends who may be thinking involves
their hands. So that's why Ihad you. But first, two questions
real quick. So one, if you're,if you are a glamping operator or
a campground or an RV park, orRV resort that's in the neighborhood
of where fans will becongregating for the World cup, whether

(05:01):
it's in the United States orCanada or in Mexico. My first question
is, and maybe to the wholegroup, whoever wants to take it,
certainly you can take it.Miguel too. But how do you prepare
to take advantage of such anevent? What's different to your campground?
What do you do to prep forsuch a thing? And then two, how do
you deal with like settingthose rates in advance? Because obviously
they're much, much higher thanthey would normally be for a non

(05:22):
spectacular event such asthat. But also like inflation keeps
rising and prices keep goingup. So you could be underpricing
yourself even though you'reoverpricing yourself now when 2026
comes around. So does anybodywant to tackle those two questions?
I'm happy to jump in. Withrespect to the pricing question,
I think that that's the casinothat we play at every single day

(05:45):
in the hospitality industrywhen we're trying to assign pricing.
And I think it's with thesepeak demand periods you have to be,
you have to be careful. And Ithink we saw that in Covid, where
we really took arguably and ifwe're just being honest with ourselves,
took advantage of demand,right. And started charging prices
where the value proposition ofthe guests got out of proportion

(06:08):
with the price. And there's alot of people that have hurt feelings
about that and feel a certainway about it. And then to have to
retreat from that point wasnot a good look either. And so I
think when those types of peakdemand situations, and we have a
similar one in our just in mybackyard here in Ocean City, Maryland,
we have a two huge concerts,one called Ocean's Calling, the other
one's called Country Calling,with big headliners like Jelly Roll

(06:31):
and Oar, et cetera, et cetera.But we see this giant demand rush
come in with those ticketedevents and we definitely price ourselves
appropriately to the marketand we have a lot more comparable
price points. And I thinkthat's probably the most relevant
thing, thing you have to do isthat not necessarily look at yourself
in the microcosm of yourproperty and did I leave money on
the table? But where's themarket at? What's the market commanding?

(06:54):
What is the kind of the guestresponding and buying towards and
just trying to price it at apoint where you're not going to be
the first guy that sells outbecause you gave it away. And. But
I think that nowadays, and thebenefit and the advantage that we
have as an industry is onceupon a time it was rate card city
and people weren't reallyadjusting rates and you didn't have
those reference points. Now wedo. And I think the more you can

(07:14):
leverage those referencepoints and make good decisions with
strong revenue management bestpractices, that's where you're going
to do the best and get thebest out of those high peak demand
situations.
Matt, do you want to. Oh, goahead, please.
And I think that we also needto take a look on the supply at the

(07:35):
end because the demand will bethere. But as Rafael was saying,
the price point, this is acasino. And I'm pretty sure that
you can, you could always sayI could have charged more for that
night. But I think thatespecially for the World cup, the
supply is critical becauseright now we're telling you with
almost a year and a half inadvance that you can talk with your

(08:00):
local authorities to say hey,I'm gonna for this two months because
of the workup, I'm gonna put Iknow 10, 20 belt tents in my property.
Sure they will be sharing abathroom or what's not. But people
they will look for thatbecause it will be probably maybe
a less expensive option thanif they stayed in a hotel. That's

(08:21):
number one. Two how the. Theall the transportation part of things
it will be critical becausefor example in Qatar it was they
the categories they put somesort of glamping sites if you may
call them. They were temporaryaccommodations that they built with
containers and so they usethat in order to increase the supply.

(08:45):
Then the transportation is ahuge part. And finally we will have
the. There's. I don't know howyou call it, but when they. It's
like a raffle where they sayokay, these teams are going to play
in this cities that will becritical because you can cater your
marketing and your commercialeffort to those countries. So let's

(09:06):
say for example countries thatthey send a lot of people, Mexico
is number one, Brazil isnumber two. Peru, when they made
it in Russia, they send alittle bit over 40,000 Peruvian.
And maybe you can even talkwith the soccer federation for those
countries to help you as partof their activities because it also
opens new marketingopportunities. Like okay maybe my

(09:29):
glamping RV or camping sitecan be like the Peruvian house for
this specific match. So it'squite interesting because at the
end it's something that we'renot as used to. Even though that
I think that Taylor Swift lastyear it was huge for hotels. I think
that this is like Taylor Swiftfor two months. So it's going to

(09:49):
be huge.
That's a great point, Miguel.And I can tell you that I'm going
to leave this and reach out tomy team, and we're going to do a
survey of all of ourcampgrounds and those cities and
make sure we're getting ready.So I appreciate you bringing this
up.
Yeah. Matt, what do you thinkfrom a consultant standpoint? And
please briefly introduceyourself. We jumped into the World
cup and didn't even have achance to introduce everybody who's

(10:11):
been speaking. Real quick. Butjust introduce yourself briefly.
And I'm curious what you thinkfrom a consulting standpoint of what
you would advise people whoare near the World cup to start.
We talked about pricing, butjust generally, how do I prep my
campground for that? Yeah.
Thanks, Brian. Matt Whittmorehere, managing partner at Soma Hospitality,
also an owner, operator ofthree campgrounds in the Northeast

(10:32):
U.S. so I just quickly lookedat a list of the locations, and I
would assume this is probablymore of a phenomenon in Mexico, where
there might be peopletraveling from a greater distance
to the stadiums, maybe not inMexico City, obviously hugely populated
city with tons of housingstock. My first reaction looking

(10:54):
at the US Cities is these areurban locations or at least close
to urban centers. So I'm notsure there's a huge kind of application
to the outdoor hospitality orglamping industry. I would assume
it's Airbnbs more urban stock.
I don't know. I don't knowabout that. I don't have data to
refute what you're saying, butthe world is like hundreds of thousands

(11:16):
of people, so I have toimagine there's a percentage that
is RV glamping that does it atother times of the year that's used
to it, that stayed in itbefore that might. So I think there's
surely some opportunity there.But let's assume here.
Of course. Of course, I wouldassume more so in Mexico, where there's
just more demand for going toa soccer event. And then there is
in the U.S. obviously, there'sbeen a long kind of developing story

(11:41):
about maybe that's true.
Americans don't realize whatthey're missing yet. So they'll get
there. They have a year and a half.
But yeah, we see it at some ofour campgrounds. We have a couple
campgrounds that are in closeproximity to the original Woodstock,
the site of 1969 Woodstock.
So Rome, New York. Right.
No, so that was the 1999infamous one where the. The whole

(12:04):
place burnt down. This isBethel Woods, Bethel, New York. And
so, like, when fish shows up,it's crazy. We're, we're 45 minutes
away, but it's, we're aroundthe corner. We have the whole campground's
full of people going to fish.So that's where I was going with
this, is that in probably lessdensely populated locations with

(12:26):
less housing stock, less urbanAirbnbs and whatnot, I could see
a huge impact where people aretraveling from 30 miles away or something
like that, and you get intomore of the sprawl and the rural
areas. Yeah, it's. We see it.We see it with events that are a
lot less consequential thanthe World Cup. It's a balance of.

(12:48):
I think Miguel made a commentof. Or maybe it was Rafa. You could
come away and say, oh, I couldhave charged more for that unit or
that site or that room. Do youwant to be perceived as price gouging
people? I think it's justfinding that balance with your dynamic
pricing and special pricingfor once in a lifetime, maybe event
like that where you'reprobably going to be 100% occupied.

(13:12):
It's just a question of how,how far you want to push that. And
it's ties into your brand, itties into your customer base, especially
if you're a place that hasrepeat customers. Do you want to
give your repeat customers achance to enjoy that, that weekend,
those weekends? It's a, it's areally interesting kind of big question
that, that ripples out throughthe rest of your business.

(13:33):
Shari, is there any data thatyou've come across that kind of lends
insight into whether peopleare willing to travel for events
like this?
I don't think. You know, it'sfunny, I've been quiet on this topic,
but thinking about our dataand how we might be able to run some
reports in specific markets onhow the rates have performed. But

(13:54):
I unfortunately don't havespecifics on that. Making a note
that might be valuable to many.
I think it's an interestingconversation because I think Matt
is right on some aspects thatobviously if you're going to a stadium
that's a downtown urban area,then especially on multiple days
that you're going to want towalk to that stadium, you're not
going to want to fight thetraffic, especially in someplace
like New York City orsomething like that, where you have
to wait an hour and a halfbefore the game sitting in traffic.

(14:17):
But I do think that for such alarge event, there's probably a subset
of people who would beinterested in Finding accommodations
like that.
I have to imagine when youhave something that only happens
every four years and it'sgoing to create a massive influx
of international travel tonorth and Central America like that,
there's no way, even thedisplacement doesn't have some sort

(14:39):
of positive effect on tourismas a whole. Because maybe it's displacing
the folks that would normallygo to the city at that time of year
and they're going to belooking for these options that don't
necessarily need to be next tothe stadium. So that demand surge
can't be a bad thing. We sawthe reverse of this last year in
our industry where peoplesurged into the cruise, back into

(14:59):
cruises, they startedtraveling back to Europe, all the
stuff that they had put off ordelayed in their Covid time and they
rushed into our business. Wesaw that exodus right where people
were leaving the country. Andthat without a doubt, in my experience,
especially in the transient RVworld, took a toll on demand. So
the reverse of I imagine, hasto be true, right? I like to believe,

(15:20):
maybe it's my eternaloptimism, but has to be true, that
it's going to create agreedemand when that World cup comes
through.
I think it will.
I think it.
Go ahead.
Do you mind if I just come in with.
I was actually going to try toinvolve you somehow. I was thinking
maybe I should ask Simon ifthere's been a Europe World cup recently
and he has data on this oranything like that. But go ahead,
please.
No, I don't need data. I justneed the European mindset. Football

(15:44):
probably also. Miguel canrelate to this very well. At the
same time that the World cupis the biggest thing to exist in
the football community. It'sabsolutely enormous. So I think every
single stadium is going to befull for every single game. That's
not an issue. And there'sgoing to be a mix of demand, particularly
in this tournament. You havethe people who are going to plan

(16:06):
in front so they know theirteam is going to play in the early
rounds. They're going to plana year in advance, year and a half
in advance and book up. Andthat's probably you need to look
out for that demand and takecare of that. But then there's going
to be second level, whichcomes when you get towards the quarterfinal,
semifinal and final, which isan enormous, unbelievable demand

(16:28):
where anybody is going to doanything they can to come and see
the game where that's spendingtheir life savings quitting their
job, finding any way possiblethey can get a flight, any accommodation
possible they can find. Sothat's really going to happen. It's
going to be enormous. So thoselast, I don't know if it's two weeks
of the tournament, there'sgoing to be enormous demand and you

(16:50):
need to be ready to acceptguests, any guest finding any accommodation.
And then the other opposite ofthat is the long term planners. So
you need to think about bothof them.
Yeah, go ahead.
I think there might be someparallels that could be drawn from
data in the hotel industry aswell, because the data is much more

(17:11):
robust. You could probablylook at multiples on average daily
rates and see what's happenedinternationally on that end as well.
And I would imagine, right. IfI'm. Let's just say the reverse was
true.
Right.
And I was going to Europe fora World cup game, I wouldn't just
go for a game, Right. I wouldmake it part of an adventure and

(17:33):
a trip. And man, if, if, if Iwould start in a city, watch the
game, then maybe I go checkout a national park that I've always
wanted to check out and, orexperience this glamping concept
that has gained so muchpopularity in the U.S. like I said,
demand surges are demandsurges and you just gotta be prepared
and find your way into gettingyour fair share of that market.

(17:53):
And that's part of the reasonI wanted to bring it up and I carried
it on for just a little bit,is you have to be able to think about
not just your accommodationsand how to prep for that, but also
how to market to thataudience. Because as to Matt's point,
right, this is not somethingyou normally do. This is not something
people maybe normally consideras staying 45 minutes, an hour and
a half outside of the city.But if you market to them and tell

(18:13):
them the story of why theyshould and why you're a better experience
and why they can relax innature and have a couple beers after
the football game is over, allthose things, then I think that you
have a better than strongchance of attracting that crowd.
But you've got to let themknow who you are and what the difference
is between you and stayingdowntown right by the stadium. Right?
Yeah.
And I don't think there's anysecret of the increased interest

(18:34):
from international visitorsinto our industry. That's a known
growing demand sector.
Yeah. And, and I think thatthere are a lot of parallels, as
Shari was saying. For example,I think that the closest will be
when the super bowl comes totown and there's a, a surge on demand
around that. Or for example,in Europe when the, the Champions

(18:56):
League final or the EuropeLeague final comes to town. Just
it's pretty much like theSuper Bowl. There's a huge search
on that and I can tell youfirsthand that there are a lot of
federations that they'relooking to have that. So for example
because at the end they, youcan be partners with them, they can

(19:16):
sell all the lodging plus theycan do marketing below the line activities
and bring their country and itcan be your property because you
cannot do that in a hotel. Butanyway, I, I, I think that the World
cup is one of the major trendsthat everyone in the hospitality
industry should cater theirofferings towards that. But I think

(19:39):
that we can do and we can talkon more recent events.
I don't know.
Brian, how would you like to proceed?
How would I like to proceed?Why am I in charge? I thought Raph
was joining the show to cohost with me. So he.
Yeah, co-host.
I think we should talk aboutthe obvious elephant in the room
for the industry is what isdemand looking like for the season.
And I can share our experienceand kind of what we're seeing early

(20:02):
on bookings and talk about.It's hard to interpret the data sometimes
especially with differentchanging trends that we have in a
less mature industry that weare. But similar to some of this
recent stuff that Toby said inher February updates to the franchisees,
we're seeing an increase inlong term stays that's up. That consumer

(20:24):
is out there. People aresettling into their favorite RV resorts
and there's a lot moreavailability. Some communities has
pivoted heavily into thatspace as well as many other campgrounds
and what once was maybe afully transient RV resort. You're
trying to establish what isthat balance of long term stay and
you're seeing a lot more ofthat. So nights are up but your rate
is obviously a significantlylower from there. Transient RV is

(20:48):
slightly down. I don't panicyet because I also have seen year
over year this booking windowcontinue to shrink. And that's a
function of a consumer that'sbecome more adept at using the constantly
improving property managementsystems that allow and empower them
to book. They know there'sinventory available that Covid demand.

(21:11):
They know it's not there. Theyknow they can book later. And then
the last piece which is thevacation rentals or the glamping
which in our resort portfoliowe always have glamping components
that are complementary to RVresorts that and we're seeing great
demand for that side of thehouse. And granted it's depending
on the property can anywherefrom smallest of 10% tenants, up

(21:33):
to 50% of the revenue. Butwe're seeing great demand in that
space and a lot of it comingfrom the ability to market alongside
and.
Right.
Compete with Airbnb and withhotel rooms. And so that VR sector
continues to grow. We'reseeing an ability to grab those customers,
pull them in, and then the keyfor us is really converting those

(21:54):
into direct bookings in thefuture by giving them just a tremendous
experience. Right. Which Icontend as an RV resort, we can deliver
something that hotels andAirbnbs simply can't deliver, which
is this incredible sense ofcommunity and this safe place for
your kids to roam and a strongset of amenities and proximity to
great places that most timesthose compete things that we're competing

(22:19):
with can't deliver. And sothat's what we're seeing big picture.
And we're aggressivelypursuing all marketing channels to
make sure when people makethat buying decision that we're top
of mind.
So let's unpack this one oneby one here, just for sake of. You
mentioned a couple differentthings, right? At least. I don't
know. I think somebody mighthave popped in the room. I don't
know if that was Shar or not.Yeah, there's Mark Kap joining us.

(22:41):
Okay, so, Raf, you talk aboutlong term stays? Cause this is a
conversation that we have witha lot of our marketing clients is
they call us on the phone. Andwhat about long term stays? I want
to focus on long term stays. Iwant to pivot. I want to. And I'm
like you, I'm not panickingyet. But I'm also not super happy
either. So just planning forthe. Preparing for the worst type
thing to have a contingencyplan. But my question to a lot of

(23:04):
the industry is how manypeople can pivot to long term? Because
before we run out of peoplewho camp long term, because it feels
like everybody's doing itright. And I think there's always
been this kind of mindset, notamong everybody, but among a chunk
of people who think that thereare these millions of full timers
on the road 365 days a year.And I don't know whether that's influencers

(23:27):
or what happened during COVIDor whatever else, but. And I think
there is a large number ofthem, but I don't know if they're
in the millions to fill allthese parks that people want to pivot
to long term for. So what areyour thoughts on that? And anybody
can take it, but I.
Have an initial thought onthat. I think that long term demand
isn't just from full timepeople necessarily on the road. But

(23:48):
we have a housingaffordability problem. And in markets
where you can live in your RVyear round, I think there's quite
a bit of demand. Just thePhoenix area where, where price,
the price of living has goneup. Tourism areas where workers can't
afford to live anywhere nearwhere they work. I think that's the

(24:09):
stronger driver to be able to.Being able to convert to long term.
Can I play devil's advocatejust for a second? And I'm not saying
I believe this. Right. I justwant to play contrarian just here
for a second. You talk abouthousing affordability. I think I
agree with you. That'scertainly an issue. But are the people
who own RVs the ones who arestruggling to afford their houses?
Some of them are, yes. But ifyou can afford to buy an rv, aren't

(24:31):
you already probably a littlebit better off than the people who
are struggling to afford housing?
Not really. It could be thatyou don't have the house advocate.
Right.
Disagree with that. Is that ishome. Right. And I see it big time,
especially in places likeTexas and a couple other markets
where we specialize in morelong term parks where that are year
round that it's home.

(24:52):
It is home.
And people are choosing thismore affordable lifestyle, prioritizing
the things. And it's notsometimes a question of it's afford.
An affordability issue.
Right.
This is what I can afford. I'mcomfortable with it. This is not
people that are just likedownsizing to simplify their lives.
This is what they're having to do.
You can buy a brand new Traveltrailer for 20 grand and live comfortably

(25:15):
in it.
Okay.
Which is convenient.
Clear? Yep.
So that was probably mymissing gap. Right. And I'm not as
familiar with the RV industryside as I am the campground side.
But. And we do have people onhere who are guests talk about it
all the time. But the gap wasme for price. Right. Like when I
hear, And I hear RV, I imagine2, 3, $400,000 plus units. But that's

(25:35):
not the case. Especially withthe trend we've seen down toward
vans and other things. But itactually is more affordable to get
into that lifestyle than I thought.
Yeah.
Not.
Definitely not. The class A'sand the buses and all that good stuff.
We're talking about thetowables and the things that can
be big enough to be a home.
Okay.

(25:57):
I think this discussion reallyhighlights the regional differences
that you find with travelbehaviors and camping behaviors.
And as an operator, I mean Ican only really speak to the Northeast,
but it's super interestingtalking to people that are not familiar
with campgrounds in theNortheast. Most campgrounds in the

(26:18):
Northeast are closed for thewinter and probably most northern
states across the country, youeliminate that affordable housing
element because people can'tlive there in the winter. But fair
point, the stock ofcampgrounds has evolved into catering
to full season renters. Socampgrounds have become like kind

(26:39):
of the affordable version of avacation home hoa where it's their
weekend getaway, but theyleave their camper there for a season,
20 seasons, 40 seasons even,and that they upgrade trailers in
the same site. It's justinteresting that there's, we see

(27:01):
so much demand. If you'redoing your marketing right, you've,
if you're operating theproperty, you should have a waiting
list years and years long forthese seasonal sites. I think that's
because it's hard to developin the Northeast as well. So there's
a supply issue. But it's sucha stark difference from Texas or

(27:21):
Arizona where it's a loteasier to build. Probably a lot more
common though to, to live inan rv no matter what your circumstances.
I think that's a piece of dataI've been searching for a long time.
The most reliable thing I'vefound is an article from like 2018
that cited RVIA data. But youcan't really find the RVIA data.

(27:43):
But it said there were amillion full time.
I believe that across thecountry. Yeah.
And I think too, to youroriginal point, Brian, you know,
your question you're asking isthere cannibalization?
Right.
Are we cannibalizing the samecustomer? And, and I think to Matt's
point, and in certain marketslike coastal beach markets that are
highly transient resorts andI'm selling seasonals, yeah, that's

(28:04):
a hundred percentcannibalization, right. More often
than not, that's somebody thatprobably stayed three or four times.
They did the math and like,let's just do a seasonal, right.
And it's going to be about thesame money and there's going to be
a component like Sherry's.Right. There's this component of
affordability and housing andthat's a new demand surge. That's
the space. But the shift tolong term is going to create some

(28:24):
cannibalization. There's nodoubt. But. And to that end, again,
this is a reason why I'm notoverly concerned. The volume of how
much I've I'm up and I'VE soldlong terms versus how much I'm down
in transient is actually likeencouraging. Right. I'm not cannibalizing
to the point where I'm. It'snot a, it's not a tip for tat. I'm
way more up and long term thanI'm down in transient. Follow what

(28:45):
I'm saying.
Yeah. Simon, I'm curious fromyour side over in Europe, is there
a behavioral shift that'shappening as in Europe or is it different
because they're much closer together?
Yeah, it's a different market.So Europe is hugely holiday driven
seasons and it's really verystrong. So most of the guests are

(29:08):
going to be families,transients coming in and out for
three months a year. And theneither side of that you have the
retired couples, maybe thedigital nomads moving around the
shoulder seasons and that'spretty much the trend. So you're
not really seeing muchdifference. You do get some snowbirds
who will come because it's alldriven by weather in Europe. So you

(29:29):
have whole of northern Europe,uk, Germany, Netherlands, northern
France, just move south in thesummer to get better weather. And
that's as predictable asanything happens every year. And
it's not really changing much.I think the only difference that
we are seeing now is theunpredictability in the market where

(29:51):
the last couple of years therewas a big increase in price for per
night stays and that kind ofwas fine. And then it got a bit of
a plateau last year andthere's a lot of uncertainty in Europe
at the moment with the economyand everything else going on. So
it's whether these people say,okay, screw it, this year I'm going

(30:12):
to stay home and I'm going tofind something locally or I'm still
going to go south. So I thinkthat's the biggest uncertainty that's
happening here. But certainlythe balance between long term and
transient isn't reallychanging. A lot of the campgrounds
still are actually trying tomove out the transient long term.
Sorry. So that was a big sortof trend 10 years ago. But with the

(30:35):
market shift, the new youngergeneration coming in, everything
that's happened since COVIDthey're actually reducing the number
of long term sites andcatering more for transient. So that's
a. It's a very differentmarket here and.
It's more, I think closelyrelated to the Northeast, like Matt
was saying, where they, youknow, they can't. They could, but
they generally don't stay allyear, 12 months a year because of

(30:55):
the weather. Right?
Yeah.
Okay.
Those compounds are going toshut for the winter. It's very rare
that you get them opening allyear round.
I want to spend five minutesand I don't want to delve too deep
into it because we usuallytackle controversial stuff that upsets
people and outwired later onthe other show. But we did have some
interesting research. We weretalking about an outwired about speculation

(31:17):
of whether travel to theUnited States would be impacted by
tariffs by the weak euro. Samething with Canada and China and Asia.
Right. But I'm just curious onyour take on that, Simon. Do you
have any sense of whetherpeople are staying closer to home
versus traveling overseas?
No, I think at the momentwhat's happening now isn't really

(31:39):
going to impact on that much.I think it's just a general uncertainty
about people deciding whenthey're going to spend. You're probably
just going to get a delay inthe booking and it's going to be
closer to the season, that'sall. But people love to travel. People
have to get away from thecrappy weather as big as Polar is.
Yeah. Okay, Mark, you've beenquiet because you joined late and

(32:01):
we didn't introduce you yet.What do you think of all this?
It'd be small sample size, butI've got a client that purchased
a property up in Pennsylvaniaabout a year and a half ago. It was
only open during the summerseason, so only short term guests.
And their entire businessmodel is they wanted to be open year
round and not to seasonalguests, but to long term and short
term guests. And as weimplemented their campaigns and did

(32:22):
that, they've been verysuccessful this last winter. They
have been very full of longterm guests. And they're not in a
warm area, they're up in themountains there in Pennsylvania.
And what we've seen throughtheir marketing is there's a significant
amount of demand for thoselong term stays just by keyword searches.
People looking for long termparks in Pennsylvania. So usually
the problem with those regionsis the parks were designed at a point

(32:43):
in time where their waterlines weren't deep enough, they would
freeze and all that type ofstuff. And so they actually had to
do that investment early on todrop their lines deeper and knowing
that they're building the parkfor that and they've been successful
with it. So I believe there'sa little bit of a mindset there too.
If you buy a property, it'sseasonal, you've already got guests
in there. Why go long term?And I can tell you that people do

(33:04):
choose the RV Lifestyle,whether it's to be stationary in
one spot or to travel around,that's their decision. But definitely
a good market. Talk about thelong term aspect of it, it's a good
time for that. As you see thisdevelopment of factories and so forth
occurring in places likeTexas, Arizona and as these deals
get announced all over thecountry, you're talking.
About the AI stuff. Big stuff.You're talking about the AI stuff.

(33:27):
The big stuff in Texas.
The big stuff, yeah, the AI.There was the chip factory announcement
yesterday in Arizona. The automanufacturers started starting to
tool up. Those are high payingjobs that are short term in nature.
Right.
Anywhere from six months totwo years. And those folks are more
likely to live in an RVbecause it's going to be something
that they can move with oncethey're done with that project. And

(33:47):
so parks that are around thoseareas generally see a boom with folks
checking in and staying there.And then in regard to the, the tariffs
and the exchange rates withdifferent currencies, we're not seeing
any real material drop insearch traffic from these foreign
countries. We still see folksfrom Germany, France and so forth
performing searches forcampgrounds and RV parks. I'll agree

(34:09):
with Simon that we're notreally seeing a material impact.
What I will say though is weare seeing. It's almost like political.
It is, it is political innature where people are so pissed
off, especially Canadiansright now. So pissed off over be
called the 51st state that youactually are getting folks calling
in and canceling theirbookings and making the point of
saying I'm canceling becausewe're not your 51st state. And generally

(34:31):
we see those type of trendstaper off as the news cycle changes.
But we are definitely seeingthat right now where there's some
people that are reallymotivated politically to, to make
their purpose and points. Andso that's always dangerous whenever
you've got. We all just wentthrough an election year and all
the nightmare of that. I justworry that continues into this year
based upon the news cycle. SoI don't know how that plays out within

(34:52):
the Canadian to US travelmarket, but we'll see.
Yeah, again, I don't want tospend too much time on there, but
just speaking as someone whois an American who currently lives
in Canada and talks to a lotof people up here like it's not a
pissed off thing, it's not apolitical thing for us. It's a what
are you thinking, we're niceto you thing. And, and that's we
won't get into all that stufffor a controversy sake. But Shari,

(35:14):
I'm curious, running big dataanalytics and market research that
you do at sage, how do youlook at if you're a campground owner
who's heading into 2025 andyou're saying I don't know what the
market's going to bring, Idon't know if I should pivot to long
term, stay short term, whatshould my mix should be, Whether
I should add glamping, not addglamping. Like how do I react to
what is really a we don't knowwhat's going to happen situation

(35:36):
yet. And it all could be fine.But how do they use data and analytics
to guide some of thosedecision making?
That's a really good question.And using data and analytics to guide
it as much as we do have a lotof that data. It's still very bare
bones. I guess that's the,it's the right way to say it. We
use our data.

(35:56):
Selling yourself, Sharia, Ijust threw you like a softball question.
Just wanna be like, yes, theyhave all the data in the world, come
find us.
I'm a humble bragger, Brian.I'm gonna tell you what I can't do
before. I can tell you what Ican do sometimes. But I think that
looking, if you are looking atthe data, I, I made some notes before

(36:17):
this call about my thoughtsabout 2025 and there's a lot of,
there's a lot of pros but alsoa lot of cons in terms of how things
could go. And even us talkingabout tariffs and the impact on demand
internationally. This is sorecent that they actually held to

(36:37):
reinstating them. Was it onebusiness day ago? Two business days
ago. I think that you couldlook at past data but looking forward
is a little bit difficult,unknown just to be honest. And our
strategy and a lot of ours isfor people who are opening up new
resorts and trying to projectwhat the first couple years are going

(37:01):
to be like based on the data.So I encourage we try to be middle
of the road but our middle ofthe road right now is a little bit
conservative because of theunknowns in the market. And we do
have some clients in the rightlocations that have moved to saying
I want to go with a longerterm strategy because I know there's

(37:21):
demand, there's and theneventually shift to shorter term
strategy. We know from ourdata how glamping is performing in
certain markets and if youhave a highly seasonal RV clientele
then because of weather, thenglamping and hard sided units can

(37:42):
mitigate some of that risk aslong as you have the right demand
drivers or just an amazingsite and experience that will draw
people in from close enough. Ithink there's a lot about having
this, the right mix that canmitigate your risk in what I think
should be an okay year. Butthere's a lot of things hanging out

(38:04):
there, like the potential forreally high inflation or the news
about not being sure if youcan get into a national park this
summer for your trip that justmight push things down in a way that
we don't want to see. Butyeah, so I think that it's just really
erring on the safe side of theoccupancy and rate in, in looking

(38:29):
at your year going forward andcoming up with other income streams
too, that can boost, boost anydecreases in your lodging or RV revenue.
And I'll, I'll add on to this.Brian. One of the things that we've
seen over the last year is theadvancements with companies like
Harvest Host and hipcampreally drawing in a lot of the short
term guests, the overnightguests into these alternative camping

(38:51):
opportunities, right. Makingit easier for folks to avoid RV parks
and campgrounds, notably whenthey're traveling. Right. So if they're
going from point A to point B,instead of staying overnight in an
RV park, they can stop in at aHarvest Host location or whatnot.
And we've seen a really bigtrend towards that. Obviously the
RVs are built a little bitbetter for that type of living. And
I don't think we're capturingthat in the data right now. The impact

(39:13):
of those alternative campingstyles on our industry and what I
can say is that definitely HipCamp in particular has done a really
good job of encouraging thesenon campgrounds to draw in those
type of guests. And so maybethere's some data that you can collect
on that and see how manypeople are actually instead of staying
at RV parks or campgrounds,they're actually staying at these
alternative styleaccommodation units this year in

(39:35):
particular.
Yeah, we can look at that. Ithink that's what interests me more,
is the pivot, right? Is theopportunity to pivot. Because we
talk about all these what ifsand there is a lot of uncertainty
and it could all be fine. Itcould be great, it could be terrible,
it could be like we're goingto know here, right, within a month
or two, pretty quickly ofwhich way this is going to head.
But there's a lot of unknownsthat we're uncertain of. And so I'm

(39:55):
of the mindset that like weshould prepare for the worst. Let's
make a plan for what if therearen't as many long term stays? Or
what if there aren't as manytransients? Or what if they stay
closer to home instead oftraveling halfway across the country?
Or what if the national parksare dirty and they're people who
want to still go camping butaren't going to stay close to them.
Like all the things you thinkabout that I feel like you need to

(40:16):
like I posted about this onLinkedIn this morning. I'm probably
going to get like everybody inthe industry whoever has done a research
report to hate me for the restof eternity. But I basically said
I'm tired of seeing all thefluff. And it's not that it's wrong,
it's that there always seemsto be when a report comes out, RV
travel is strong. Millions ofpeople want to go camping. And maybe
that's true, but millions ofpeople wanting to go camping is not

(40:39):
the same thing as millions ofpeople will go camping. And so I
think there's a for people whoload out. Brian.
Yeah, sometimes you gotta willit into existence, bro.
And again, I'm not, I put inthere, right. I'm not saying I want
all doom and gloom. I'm justsaying if you don't present both
sides, you don't give an owneran opportunity to think about what
is my alternative strategy ifthat happens. If they're just thinking,

(41:02):
it's all good. Right?
You know what, we were talkingto some data providers that have
access to real time fuelpurchasing. So they actually know
where RVers are purchasingtheir fuel over the last month. And
we're like, man, there's somuch value in that. If you combine
it with the data we have atcampground views about forward trends,
where people are searching forcampgrounds and RV parks, that would

(41:22):
be actionable. Right. We wouldknow where people traveled over the
last month and we would knowwhere they're looking in the forward
month and be able to startsetting up trends and so forth on
that. But it goes back to thedata problem of that partner just
didn't see it. They didn't seethe value of it. And whether or not
they wanted to go pull thosereports, you're going to help a lot
of folks. Yeah, but it doesn'treally help our business that much
other than getting our nameout there. That's actually a challenge

(41:42):
in our industry is getting thedata from the sources that that actually
shares. So everything ends upbecoming anecdotal. Right. It's all
here's what I'm seeing in thisarea, and here's what this park is
getting and so forth. Youknow, like, anecdotally, I'm in an
area that's. I'm up in theBlack Hills in Wyoming, but near
Rapid City. And we're startingto see RVs already on the road in
this region here as thingshave warmed up a little bit. So anecdotally,

(42:04):
we're actually already seeingthat happen here in this region.
And I know from clients acrossthe country that most of our clients
are actually start seeing anuptick in search traffic. They're
seeing an uptick in bookingscompared to where they were just
a few months ago. So overall,we see kind of positive trends, but
everything's anecdotal. Ican't go into a report and say, here's
what's going.
We've seen that too the firsttwo months of the year. Right. A

(42:26):
lot of our clients are sayingwe're up the first two months out
of the year in number ofbookings versus 2024. So again, I'm
not saying that it is doom andgloom. I'm saying there's a lot of
uncertainty out there thatcould go either way that we need
to pay attention to is all.Matt, what do you think? Like, how
do you pay attention to someof these trends and insights from
both your parks that you ownand your consulting to advise your
clients?

(42:48):
I have a few thoughts here. Iwould say there's some macro trends
afoot here with. In the RVspace. There's some questions as
to transient demand. Maybe I'man eternal optimist, but I still
feel that if you have a goodlocation, if you have good marketing,

(43:09):
if you're doing all thethings, you'll be fine.
I agree with you.
There's.
You have nothing to worryabout. And we see it on, like, the
Facebook groups and thechatter of, oh, my God, I'm down
20 revenue year over year. Andit's okay. Let's go through the list
of 10 things.
Do you have a website? What's that?
Exactly.
Yeah, right.
And I think there was such arush for investing in the RV park

(43:32):
space, and it's such a smallniche. Like, I'm fresh off doing
a deep dive into the annualreports from sun and ELS that were
just released like a week ago,and something stuck out for me. And
it. They have it every year atthe beginning. Els, they say there
are 1300 RV resorts that have200 sites or more, and that always

(43:56):
just, like, it just sticks outto me because it illustrates what
such a small niche this is.And there's so much hype in the investment
side of the industry. The RVpark gold rush. In my opinion, it's
over. It's been over. Unlessyou can figure out how to creatively

(44:17):
monetize those sites, thoseparks that are.
Or you wait for the peoplethat overpay to have to sell their
park and then that's a littlemini Golda.
Yeah, sure, yeah, I do, I doexpect some degree of that in the
coming years. I thinkseparately on the glamping and outdoor
lodging and landscape, hotelsand resorts. That's Sherry, you guys,

(44:40):
you guys have the data. Thebest in the industry. The presentation
that you guys did, theglamping show what? There's less
than 400 professionallymanaged glamping locations, 7,000
something units. That's such atiny industry, but that's really
where the booming growth is. Ithink so many people came into the

(45:02):
RV park industry post Covidand they looked at these insane numbers
and they're seeing it as adisaster that in 2025 we're returning
to maybe a more of a trendedlike 2019 number. So I don't think
anything disastrous ishappening. I think it's normalization.

(45:23):
But I think on the lodging andglamping side that is just absolute.
That's where really the hugeopportunity is. And there's all these
tiny campgrounds thatinvestors are just going to pass
over. A lot of investors, atleast the big known players are going
to pass over that I think canbe reinvented into something really

(45:45):
special that can make a lotmore revenue than a 50 site campground
would make. If it has theright location, if has the right.
Yeah, the right experience is.The key thing is you've got to imagine
we have a couple clients whowant us to market for their cabins
in a market that's an houraway. And in between where that destination
market is and they are,there's 130 really cool, unique Airbnbs.

(46:08):
And maybe they're not allgreat and nobody's saying they're
better than, but they'redifferent than. And not everybody
wants to be in the side byside cabin with 20 of them lined
up next to each other. Lots ofpeople will. And right from an affordability
standpoint or a communitystandpoint, like Raf said earlier,
but you have to be whatever itis, whatever your reason is, if you

(46:29):
want to go outside your normalmarket, you've got to have an experience,
you've got to have somethingdifferent. You've Got to be able
to tell your story and that'son your website, that's on your marketing,
that's on your phone calls,that's everywhere. Why should you
come stay with me either in myvacation rentals or my glamping units
or. And it's really obviouslyRVs too. But that is the. I agree
with you. That's the bigopportunity is can I tell a story

(46:50):
that will convince people thatwho would normally stay in Airbnbs,
who would normally stay in ahotel, that I have a better opportunity
for them? Specific to me likegenerally speaking, just because
you have cabins doesn't makeyou a better opportunity. Certainly
there are people who want tobe outside and enjoy nature, but
there are also people who hatebugs and want to be inside. You still

(47:10):
have to tell your story andwhy you're different, I think. But
if you can do that, then you.Then the opportunity is absolutely
massive, I think. And I'm notworried at all.
Yeah.
And just
I think there's so much.
Oh no, I. Thanks for themention of the glamping data. Just
for reference. We've continuedto see rate increases and strong

(47:31):
occupancy along with reallyhigh growth in the number of glamping
operations. 11% year over yearin the number of units from 2022
to 2024. Rate increasesaveraging almost 5%. We are looking
at maybe not being quite asgung ho on stabilizing occupancy

(47:53):
within a couple years becausethere is, there are more options
out there. But I do agree thatthere's still more opportunity in
that segment compared to mostmarkets for just rv. But the barriers
to entry on our on both sidesare getting harder and harder and
who knows where construction.Well, I think we know which direction

(48:16):
construction costs are goingto further go this year, at least
in the short term. It doesn'tmean there aren't any opportunities
on RV there. There, therestill are in the range.
Oh for sure. Absolutely. Yeah.But again, even if you're just rv,
you need to learn how to tellthat experience of why your RV park
is different. I don't thinkit's enough to just have a swimming
pool and miniature golf courseanymore. You've got to say why is

(48:38):
your swimming pool different?Why is your mini golf course different?
Why is your service differenteven? And it doesn't have to be a
multi million dollar waterpark. It can be as simple as Doubletree's
warm cookies at check in or abeggar smile or waving to your guests
in your golf cart or itdoesn't have to be a capital outlay,
I think. Rafael, I'm curiouswhat you think about this. Just because
we recently put out, and Iadmit I haven't read the whole thing,

(48:59):
and probably you haven'teither, but Scott Barr put it out
for us in Modern Campground. Iskimmed it. We were talking about
blended travel, and it justcame out, I think earlier this week
or last week where we weretalking about there's a lot of guests
who will take a longer tripthat is blended between. Some stays
will be at glamping, somestays might be in an RV rental, some
stays might be at a hotel. Andit's not just a one size fits all

(49:22):
trip like it was in the past.So is there any insights that you
could share with us on thatjust because you're Blue Water owns
hotels and campgrounds?
No. Absolutely. The classicconcept. And I know that you're the
king of all things AI andoutdoors, but we, we definitely now
don't just make sure we'reoptimizing our search engine results.
We're also saying, what areour AI search results? Because that's

(49:46):
becoming a more real powerfultool, really spending a lot of time
digging in with all thevarious trip planning tools that
are out there and making surethat we're showing up. I think there's
a giant world for thecampground views. Had a great conversation
last night with. With yourcolleague Mark last night about kind
of direction you guys aregoing and attack that you're taking,
which is very unique andisolated in the sense that you don't

(50:07):
really have any real directcompetitors, but they're coming from
multiple angles. And I agreewith you. People are trying to make
them most out of a travelexperience. And I think these, again,
are all opportunities for us.And the way we're going to win is
ultimately focusing heavily onthe value proposition, right? And
everything that you're gettingthat you can't get somewhere else.
And that to me is the thingthat I'm talking about in my marketing,

(50:31):
in my revenue management andpromotions on property, right? Is
that is the value proposition.And I think that when I can offer
you a warm smile and agreeting versus here's a code, check
yourself into a door, right?And if I can offer a fire pit versus
a deck that's sitting rightnext to somebody else's outdoor patio,

(50:52):
these are the things that weneed to focus on so that we can win
that customer and show themand connect them with this beautiful
community, right? Which isagain, we talk about our competitive
advantage and it's communityin these parks, in these properties.
And there's a place for themicro glamping, there's a place for
hotels, there's a place foreverybody in this space. But if you

(51:12):
really want to capitalize onthe RV resort or those scaled, you
know, glamping experience, youhave to really stay focused on what
you're providing that can't beprovided elsewhere. And.
And it starts with,understand. Sorry, go ahead, please.
I thought you were finished.
Oh, no, I was just going toadd. I listen to the Wall street
podcast every morning whileI'm getting ready. And that's like,
my thing. And so mostrecently, Hilton has done two things,

(51:35):
and they're like, advertisingall over this podcast. One thing
that Hilton, the first one wasadjoining rooms and guaranteeing
adjoining rooms, which hasbeen a big campaign of theirs to
directly compete with Airbnbbecause he has those really snazzy
commercials about showing yousharing a hotel room with your kids
and the nightmare that can beversus having a whole house to yourself.
And then the second thing thatthey've done heavily is immerse you

(51:57):
in this experience ofAutocamp, like, in the background
of, hey, if this sounds likeamazing s'mores and they have the
crackling fire in thebackground, it's like the audio for
it. And if this all soundsgreat, you need to cash in your Hilton
reward points, stay at an autocamp. And so you can tell that there's
a huge interest in theexperience that we're providing.
And we have to reallycapitalize on those differentiators

(52:21):
and take those and deliverthat to the customer through the
buying process and thenthrough the actual stay, because
that's when they're going tobe like, when I want to spend my
disposable income, when I wantto spend my free time, I want that
experience. And guess what?
I can only get it there.
And I'm just to give you ajust. And I know this is a long response.
I'm an avid surfer. I love tosurf. And so one of my favorite places

(52:42):
in the world to go is CostaRica. And why do I keep going back
there is because every time Igo, I know I'm going to have a great
time, great hospitality, butI'm never going to get skunked on
surf. And I'm going to spendthis, like, week with my family,
this precious time off that Ihave. I'm going to do what I love
and be with the people that Ilove. I want assurances that I'm
going to have a certainexperience. And I think that's what

(53:03):
we have to Capitalize is, isone, promote that unique experience.
We provide that competitiveadvantage and then two, deliver on
that promise.
And yeah, and make sure thatyou're talking to your potential
guest, which is a big late.That's a big thing we're focusing
on on our side with ourclients this year is one size doesn't
fit all in website copy just.You talk about me being the AI guy,

(53:24):
but I'm not throwing websitecopy into chat GPT and regurgitating
it out, even though I couldand that would be really quick. I'm
using AI, but I'm doing itthoughtfully in a way that like you're
a specific resort in aspecific area. What is your specific
type of ideal guest? Let's dosome focus group market research.
Let's write website copythat's tailored to that person and
not only see that person towhat that goal is you want to accomplish.

(53:44):
If you want to be thatglamping person or that vacation
rental person that takessomebody from a different market,
then there needs to be a pagethat's written for that specific
type of person. And I thinkputting those thoughts into things
both from a amenitystandpoint, operations standpoint,
like you're talking about, butalso from a, like the whole thing
is marketing and branding.Right. How do people perceive you
to get you from, just like yousaid the commercial from Airbnb to

(54:07):
Hilton to Auto Camp, there'sjust needs to be, I think, more thought
put into some of that stuff.
And it's tough. We're managingover 60 resorts today, a combination
of owned and doing it forthird party for other folks. And
the reality is that are weever going to deliver the same level
of service than Mon Pa Joethat when they owned that property
and delivered it, it's verydifficult to do that right at scale.

(54:30):
But when you empower yourpeople, you give them the tools and
you really stay focused on themission, we can get pretty damn close
and, and that's the thing thatwe strive to do at a institutional
level is make sure that we'recreating and really embracing what
made this industry at its coreand what made it blow up to start
with, why people came to it tobegin with. And we have to stay authentic

(54:52):
to that. We can't get, can'tgo full corporate on this thing.
Matt, like your post the otherday put out there with the unreasonable
hospitality crew coming in,which I am a big fan of that book,
but I understand the humor ofthat post. But man, you got some
reaction from that. But keepit as authentic as possible. And
I think that the reality isthat. And just when you mentioned

(55:13):
the Gold Rush is over and Idon't think it's over. It's evolving.
Right. Not everybody that wentout into the Gold Rush was successful.
There was a lot of people thatfailed, a lot of people that fell
on their face and didn't makeit. But there's still a gold industry
out there and the fittestalways survive. And I think at the
end of the day it's makingsure that you fit on all facets financially

(55:33):
and also on what you'redelivering at a service level. And
we're just seeing, we'reseeing a culling is what we're seeing.
Yeah. And it seemsoverwhelming, but you just have to
start small, take it brick bybrick and figure out what you can
do tomorrow to begin to buildthat house up back in order. And
it can be something as smallas what we're talking about. To the
cookie example to like.Simon's got really cool digital maps

(55:53):
he's working with KOA for.Right. Those little touches and things
change the guest experienceand make people remember you and
make you stand out and make iteasier for them to navigate, find
information and ultimately tostay with you. That is my shout out
to you, Simon, because Ihaven't talked to you enough back
into your good graces.
Yeah, I apologize guys, I haveto hop.

(56:13):
We have to wrap up this
leadership conference and I'mgoing to go in there and see what
the the RV dealers andmanufacturers are saying
Before you leave.
Raf, just tell them about BlueWater real quick and where they can
find more information.
Sure. Blue Water Hospitality.So we are a owner developer and we
also do third party managementin the RV space. Really specializing
in kind of institutionalinvestors that are operating multi

(56:34):
property scaled operations.Our website's bwdc, that's Bravo
Whisky Delta Charlie.com(bwdc.com) and then you can follow
us on Instagram @BWExperience
Awesome. Thank you Raf.Appreciate it. We'll see you next
month.
Thank you,
Matt.
Take care guys.
Matt, we're gonna find outmore about some hospitality and your,
tell us about your new podcastreal quick. If you have to jump off
you can but let's give Matt.

(56:56):
No, I. I've got time.
Tell us about your podcastreal quick. Yeah, if anybody has
to jump let me know and we canlet them go. But Matt.
Yes. So Good Morning Outdoorsis a a live podcast. Thursdays 10am
Eastern. It is in conjunctionwith the team at Hospitality FM and

(57:17):
Good Morning Hospitality. Sowe're under the Good Morning Hospitality
banner I think it's aninteresting angle into the industry.
It's caters largely totraditional hospitality professionals.
So the idea was that we can,we can serve some curious minds that
are in the hotel world orresort world, not so much in the

(57:38):
outdoor world. And I'm surethey're seeing all the buzz in the
industry and everything. 30minutes weekly news based for the
most part. And then SomaHospitality is three person team
right now. My, my partners areSamuel Morton, who was head of development
at getaway for five years upuntil 2021. He founded SOMA Build.

(57:59):
At that time. I became aclient of his with my campgrounds
and quickly saw that he wasthe best in the business when it
comes to developing thesetypes of properties. And opportunity
came up to become his partnerand I couldn't pass it up. And then
Alex Burkett is a veteran onthe side of marketing and Ops. He's

(58:21):
GM'd a few RV resorts andcampgrounds and then he's also run
a marketing agency. We'reattacking the industry and helping
operators and developers fromtwo angles here. Development, advisory,
third party project managementon the development side and then
marketing and marketingservices, digital marketing.
Okay, so where can they watchyour podcast? Is it tomorrow? And

(58:43):
then where can they learn moreabout Soma Hospitality?
Yes. So the podcast istomorrow. It's broadcast live on
LinkedIn, YouTube and Twitter.So you can find us on LinkedIn. But
you can also find it ApplePodcasts. It's under Good Morning
Hospitality. There's a fewshows that are on that same RSS feed.

(59:05):
So we're Good MorningOutdoors. We're the Thursday show
under Good MorningHospitality. And then soma hospitality.com
S-O-M-A-hospitality.com. Youcan learn a little bit abo
Thank you for being here,Matt. Miguel. Where can they learn
more about Mexican GlamingAssociation? I feel like you've been
quiet too. I feel like I'mignoring my, we talked about soccer

(59:25):
and then I just ignored youguys for the rest of the show. If
you weren't in the UnitedStates, I'm sorry.
Yeah, no, it's really good. Ithink that this year it's a reality
check type of year. So I, Ilove what Matt said, that there are
a lot of operators and ownersthat are out there and they don't
have their stuff together.It's critical for them to do that

(59:47):
real check and see wherethey're standing on different fronts,
marketing, operations,financial. Because this is going
to be quite an interestingyear. I was running a couple of numbers
while, while you Guys weretalking and I can tell you that at
least on the Mexican market,there's a 10% decrease on searches

(01:00:09):
for flights to the US and Ithink that Rafael, he was on point
when he mentioned that thegold rush is not over. But I think
that it has changed and Ithink that tourism will be on, on
a more regional basis. So alot of people, they were out and

(01:00:30):
about in Europe, in Asia, inthese exotic places, but they will
keep on traveling but on amore regional way. So I think that
RV parks, camping sites andlampings, they need to cater their
marketing efforts to their ina regional way. That's something

(01:00:50):
that it's critical they needto see their price structure, their
cost structure because at theend they need to survive and it's
critical for them to. I thinkthat we have different industry leaders
in here in the, in the podcastthat they can reach out in order
to get the assist that theyneed. And here in the Mexican market

(01:01:12):
Association, Mexican LampingAssociation, Sorry, you can always
find us on our website,asociacionmexicanadeglamping.com. it's
in Spanish. I know that a lotof Spanish speaking people, they
listen to this type of podcastand they're eager for this type of
content. In our case, we arestarting to produce that type of

(01:01:34):
knowledge. And sure, you canalways find me on LinkedIn. Miguel
Huerta. Yeah, I'm always happyto help.
Awesome. Thanks for beinghere, Miguel. Yeah, I'm really interested
to see where this goes. CauseShari was saying. And I'll let you
wrap up in a sec, Chari withtalking about Sage and where they
can find more informationabout you guys. But just like you
were saying, the data isn'tquite there yet, but we are seeing
like we know this ishappening. We know border crossings

(01:01:56):
from British Columbia is downFebruary 2025 or 2024 into the states
by 30%. So the data isstarting to trickle in. We know the
Canadians aren't coming in thesame Numbers. They're canceling WestJet
flights and air Canada flightsthe same way as Mexico. Miguel just
said is maybe only 10% downthere, but this is happening. Could
it reverse? Yes, of course itcould. Nobody knows what's going

(01:02:17):
to happen tomorrow, right?Apparently it's really exciting down
there in the States. You guyslike keep it that way. So it's entertaining
for us and outside looking in.But Shari, wrap it up for us. Tell
us where they can find outmore about Sage Outdoor and all the
good work you guys do.
Oh, thank you. Yeah. And itdefinitely is Interesting dome here,
isn't it? So, Sage OutdoorAdvisory. We are feasibility consultants

(01:02:39):
and appraisers. We dofeasibility studies and valuations
in the outdoor hospitalityworld. We've got about 12 people
across the country, haveworked on over 300 projects and we
are curators of our own datathat supports what we do and little.
Little advance announcement inthe glamping world. We are about
to start issuing reports onour glamping data that can be purchased

(01:03:04):
on our website. We havereports by state and soon we'll have
them by Radius where you canreally understand competitive data
for rates and unit types andamenities and that kind of thing.
But I appreciate being able tobe be part of the podcast today.
Our website issageoutdooraadvisory.com and I can

(01:03:25):
be found on LinkedIn as well.Sheri S-H-A-R-I and my last name
is H-E-I-L-A-L-A Halala. LikeFalala. Doesn't make sense.
Thank you, Shari. Appreciateyou being here. Simon. Last but not
least.
Yeah, so I'm from CampMap.We're a digital platform that helps

(01:03:48):
out those for hospitalitybusinesses like campgrounds, glamping
sites, RV parks, improve theirguest experience, prove revenue,
reduce costs with digitalprofessional maps. So essentially
we're replacing thetraditional PDF JPEG map with a digital
version. Allows you to solveall sorts of other problems in a

(01:04:10):
better way. For example,arriving at big sites, GPS navigation
integrated with bookings. It'seasy to see location context for
where sites are and amenitiesare very clearly Sierra based in
Europe. But we're growingquite nicely now. We're been in the
US for a couple of years. Wehave quite a few customers here.

(01:04:30):
And also this partnership withKOA where we're supporting them and
presenting the campgrounds onKOA.com and also now integrating
with the booking flow to allowtheir select my site feature to be
very dynamic and interactive.So you can find us at campmap.com
our email's there. You canbook a call with me directly there
as well. Otherwise, reach outon LinkedIn. Simon Neal, CampMap.

(01:04:54):
You'll find us without any problem.
All right. I'm looking forwardto your continued growth, Simon.
I'm counting on you being herein a couple years because I'm going
to come to you and I'm goingto say I need to use your API to
program the humanoid robots sothey can navigate around the park.
And obviously mapping iscritical for that. Right?
Yeah, we have a navigationAPI. It's ready.
All right. It's gotta be goodfor humanoid robots. So I'm giving

(01:05:15):
you like two years max beforeI'm gonna need to do this for campgrounds.
It's coming fast, so. Allright. Well, thank you guys for joining
us for another episode of MCFireside Chats. Really appreciate
the good conversation. We'llsee you next week for another episode
if you're interested inhearing me talk more, which I don't
know who in the right mindwould be, but I have another podcast
starting in, I don't know, 37and a half minutes. So we'll be over

(01:05:36):
there in Outwire doing kind ofan uncensored data dive. We're going
to be talking aboutcoincidentally humanoid robots today.
Some of Scott's findings fromRVIA. He's down there in Arizona
and some other cool things.Join us there on Outwire where we'll
be starting shortly. So thanksguys. Appreciate it and we'll talk
to you next week.
Thanks, Brian.
Thanks Brian, everybody. Bye.