June 18, 2025 • 52 mins
June 18th Episode Recap This episode of MC Fireside Chats, guest-hosted by Mike Harrison of CRR Hospitality, brought together a diverse panel of outdoor hospitality experts to discuss current trends, challenges, opportunities, and the unique aspects of their respective properties. The discussion highlighted the varied experiences within the campground industry, from long-standing family businesses to niche, destination-focused operations, and the ongoing impact of external factors like legislation and economic shifts. Mike Harrison, Chief Operating Officer of CRR Hospitality, introduced himself and his company, which owns, manages, and consults on outdoor hospitality assets. He expressed excitement about guest hosting and noted the show’s weekly rotation of panelists and topics, covering trends, markets, challenges, and opportunities. Jeff Hoffman, a founder of Camp Strategy, a consulting firm for campgrounds, shared his extensive experience, revealing he has owned his current campground since 1968, making him the most tenured in the group. His firm offers services from due diligence and feasibility studies to coaching for profitability. Kaleigh Day, owner of Surf Junction Campground in Ucluelet, BC, described her unique, forested property located near the Pacific Rim National Park Reserve. Her campground features traditional tenting and partially/full-service sites, along with amenities like hot tubs, a sauna, flush toilets, and hot showers. A key differentiator is her surf school, operating out of the national park, alongside surf rentals, a general store, and a coffee shop. The campground has about 90 campsites across 72 acres, utilizing about 40, keeping the rest wild. Kaleigh explained that Surf Junction’s revenue model relies on a “trifecta” of camping, surf lessons, and surf rentals. Keeping camping prices relatively low helps attract more campers, especially in the shoulder season, with additional revenue generated from add-ons like coffee, merchandise, and crucially, surf lessons and rentals, often bundled in packages. She noted that the surf school builds community and loyalty, with campers returning annually and bringing friends and family. Kaleigh’s family acquired the pre-existing Surf Junction 13 years ago when it was smaller, and they have since expanded the offerings and visibility of the surf school. She highlighted the campground’s destination appeal, being a five-and-a-half-hour journey from Vancouver, involving a ferry and a long, winding road, meaning visitors specifically choose to come to them. Reservations open in January and are typically full for the summer by June. Stephen Saint Fort, owner of Fort Welikit Campground in Custer, South Dakota, described his 22-acre property just outside Custer, near Custer State Park and Black Hills National Forest. His campground has 100 sites, with 71 being RV sites ranging from 30-amp water and electric to 50-amp pull-throughs. A unique feature is that no two sites are alike, and the campground is heavily treed, with deer and turkey frequently seen. Stephen proudly introduced their “Camping barrels,” unique sleeping cabins that look like giant whiskey barrels, special-ordered from Norway. These barrels offer a mattress, electricity, a light, and a fan, positioned close to a bathhouse, and guests bring their own bedding. He decided to offer them as a more affordable, single-night option than full-service cabins, and they have been unexpectedly popular. Jeff Hoffman then discussed a concerning legislative trend in Ohio, where a bill could allow county commissioners to take two-thirds of bed tax revenue for discretionary use, rather than for the visitors bureau. He shared his experience on his county’s visitors bureau, which grew from $250,000 to $4 million in revenue, and now faces demands from the county. Mike Harrison echoed these concerns, citing similar issues in Arizona where a proposed five-point bed tax increase would make a small town’s taxes among the...
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mike Harrison (00:46):
Good afternoon or good morning, or wherever you are, and welcome
to Modern Campground Fireside Chats.
I am not Brian Searl.
My name's Mike Harrison.
I'm with CRR Hospitality.
I'm excited to guest host thisweek's edition of Fireside Chats.
And Jeff, that was the first time I everrealized that there was like this little
MC Fireside Chats in the intro music.
(01:06):
I've heard that probably 50 times.
I just picked up on that now.
But anyhow on the weekly editionsevery week there's a different group of
panelists as well as different topics andthings that we talk about, and we discuss
ongoing trends, markets challenges,wins, opportunities, threats, et cetera.
And this week we no different.
We have a regular recurring guestsas well as a couple new guests
(01:28):
that will join us this week.
So I'd love to go around realquickly and just introduce everybody.
My name is Mike Harrison.
I am the Chief OperatingOfficer of CRR Hospitality.
We own and manage our own outdoorhospitality assets like Verde,
Rancho V Resort, and we also do thirdparty management and consulting.
And always happy to be here.
(01:50):
Jeff.
Jeff Hoffman (01:53):
My name's Jeff Hoffman and I am a founder of Camp Strategy, which
is a consulting firm for campgrounds,whether it's due diligence, feasibility
studies, or just coaching you throughCampground , a little bit more profitable.
Mike Harrison (02:16):
Great.
And we were just talking about how longhave you owned your current Campground?
Jeff Hoffman (02:23):
Yes, I am the oldest guy in the group, 1968.
Mike Harrison (02:31):
Now everybody else calculate when they were born figure out.
That's impressive.
Yeah.
What an amazing accomplishment.
Kaleigh.
Kaleigh Day (02:39):
Oh yeah.
Hi, I'm Kaleigh Day.
I own Surf Junction Campground.
Out on or in Ucluelet?
On Vancouver Island, BC
Mike Harrison (02:50):
Cool.
Kaleigh Day (02:51):
Yeah.
Mike Harrison (02:52):
Great.
Stephen?
Stephen Saint (02:54):
Stephen Saint Fort.
I own Fort Welikit Campgroundat Custer, South Dakota in the
Black Hills of South Dakota.
Mike Harrison (03:02):
Near the park.
Stephen Saint (03:04):
I'm sorry?
Mike Harrison (03:05):
Right near the National Park.
Stephen Saint (03:07):
The Custer State Park.
Black Hills National Forest.
Mike Harrison (03:10):
National Forest.
Gotcha.
That's great.
Before we get into trends, I'dlove to hear maybe Kaleigh and
Stephen, if you guys could describea little bit about your properties.
That's always interesting tohear about and yours are both
very interesting and unique.
So it'd be great, if you couldtalk about what you do and what
you run and what you own and let usknow what a little bit about them.
Kaleigh Day (03:27):
Yeah.
Stephen, is it okay if I go first?
Mike Harrison (03:29):
Absolutely.
Kaleigh Day (03:31):
Yeah.
Okay.
Sweet.
Yeah.
Surf Junction, it's a forested campsite or Campground located just south of
the Pacific Rim National Park Reserve.
So we're not on the water,but we're very close.
And the Campground itself haslike the classic Campground
infrastructure, so tenting sitesor like partially service sites.
(03:51):
And then full servicecampsites, like the large RV.
And then we have a lot of amenitieslike hot tubs, sauna, flush toilets,
hot showers, all that good stuff.
And then we have a surf school thatoperates out of the Pacific Room
National Park which is awesome.
And then we have surf rentals and alittle general store and coffee shop,
(04:12):
and we have about 90 campsites and 72acres, but we only utilize about 40.
And yeah, I think that's about it.
I'm nervous.
Mike Harrison (04:22):
Can I borrow the other 32 acres then if if
we're not being used right now?
Kaleigh Day (04:25):
No, we just want it to stay wild.
Mike Harrison (04:28):
Tell us a little bit more, talk about a niche Campground, right?
How many campgrounds in thecountry offer surf school, right?
So maybe talk a little bit moreabout that, and then does it
drive the Camping business?
Does it standalone?
What kind of revenues that do?
Very interested in that.
Kaleigh Day (04:41):
Yeah, so I found that with the Campground being more of a traditional
Campground, so we're not like an RV park.
We don't really have that like highdensity yield on just on our land.
We also keep our Camping price pointrelatively low to get a lot of people in.
And then we make a lot of our revenuecomes from the trifecta of Camping
(05:01):
surf lessons and surf rentals.
So I found that our lower pricepoints helps generate a lot more
campers in the shoulder season.
We fill up and then we make ourrevenue off of the add-ons, so like
the coffees, the merchandise, and thenreally pushing the sales on our surf
lessons and then our surf rentals anddoing packages and that sort of stuff.
(05:22):
Yeah, it's we've been able to grow itover the years, which has been nice.
We were able to expand theCampground, which was huge for
us, hence the like 72 acres.
'cause the original Campground webought was 18 and then we expanded back.
But yeah, the surf lessons, it's ahuge part of our business and it also
helps build our community with ourcampers and our guests and a lot of
(05:43):
yeah, like camper loyalty I guess.
'cause they take lessons from us.
They come back every year, they startdoing rentals and they bring their
friends, their kids grow up doing lessonsand they come back over the years.
Yeah.
I dunno if that answers your question.
Mike Harrison (05:58):
Yeah, no, it's there's nothing to be nervous about, right?
We're all just having aconversation or a Fireside Chat.
Kaleigh Day (06:04):
Yeah, I know right.
Mike Harrison (06:05):
I don't see any fire.
Kaleigh Day (06:06):
Problem when I'm nervous.
Mike Harrison (06:07):
Yeah.
What I'm curious and it's not aninquisition, I'm more, I can't help myself
and I'm just curious about your business.
Did you acquire the Campgroundas an existing and there was
already a surf school there?
Or did you acquire andcreate the surf school?
Kaleigh Day (06:21):
Yeah, so Surf Junction already existed.
We bought it 13 years ago and it wason the original 18 acres and it's
one of Ucluelet's first surf schools.
It was quite a bit smaller and they didsurf rentals as well out of the office.
And then we've just expanded it.
So we offer more lessons, more rentals.
We pushed it out of our little officeand now we have this like surf shack.
(06:46):
So it's more visible.
And yeah, so we bought it preexisting,but we've had, have since expanded it.
Mike Harrison (06:53):
And so you're on Vancouver Island, so is it hard to get to you?
Kaleigh Day (06:57):
Yes, but we're quite the destination.
I don't know if you guys GoogleTofino, it's like you Ucluelet's
like the less, Tofino is kindalike the well-known surf spot.
It's Canada's California, if you will.
So there's lots of big, beautifulbeaches and it's quite the destinations.
We have a lot of Europeanpeople that come.
But yeah, it's five and ahalf hours from Vancouver.
(07:17):
It's a ferry ride.
It's a long windy road out here.
It's not for the faint of heart.
Mike Harrison (07:23):
So people aren't driving by your Campground, they're
coming specifically to see you?
Kaleigh Day (07:28):
Yes.
Yeah.
In the area in general, it'sjust at capacity with visitors.
So we open our reservations in January andlike by June, we're full for the summer.
Mike Harrison (07:40):
I have more questions, but I'm gonna come back.
Kaleigh Day (07:42):
Yeah.
Mike Harrison (07:43):
Stephen, how about you?
Tell us a little bit about your park.
Stephen Saint (07:46):
We're just outside the town of Custer.
We're on the north east side orCuster heading up to Sylvan Lake.
We're about 22 acres.
We have a hundred sites total.
71 of them are RV sites, and theyrange from 30 amp water and electric
only to the 50 amp pull through sites.
It's quite a different range.
(08:06):
One of the unique things about our placeis not two sites are exactly the same.
They're all unique.
They're all very different.
We are heavily tree.
So you're in the forestwhen you're staying with us.
We've got deer and turkey thatrun through the Campground
daily, two, three times a day.
One of our unique things that wehave that I really like to talk
(08:27):
about is our Camping barrels.
We have Camping barrels.
They're not traditionalCamping or sleeping cabin.
They look like a giant whiskey barrel.
They're really unique.
We actually had to get themspecial ordered in from Norway.
We get a lot of comments about them.
They're just sleeping.
They just have a mattress anda little bit of electricity.
(08:48):
But they're really neat.
I tell everyone, check 'em out.
We got plenty of pictures, but they're, Ithink when we got them, we were the fourth
Campground in the country to get 'em.
Mike Harrison (08:57):
Wow.
Interesting.
What made you decide to orderspecifically the Camping barrels?
Stephen Saint (09:03):
We had some full service cabins, but they're a little,
they're little bit pricey, and wehave a two night minimum on 'em.
And people just wanted a night someplace,especially like the Tenors wanted, if
it was raining, they wanted to get outtathe rain, but they didn't wanna pay
$200 a night for a full service cabin.
They just needed some place to crash.
And so we started searching around and meand my wife are all about being different
(09:24):
and unique and we started on a search,okay, we need to find some lower price
cabins that we can get people into.
And we kept seeing all the normal ones.
No offense if you have'em, but that's not us.
And we started noticing these round thingsthat they're very popular in Europe.
I guess there's all differentkinds of configurations in Europe.
(09:46):
And I'm like, how do I getmy hands on some of those?
And I reached out to some of thecompanies in Europe and some of the
campgrounds in Europe that had 'em,and none of them had shipped, none
of them had shipped to the States.
And I found a distributor inConnecticut and he was able to
(10:07):
get me four of them from Norway.
And so we got 'em in and they come in abig crate, you gotta put 'em together.
And of course the instructionsaren't all that well.
So the very first one was long andlaborist to try to figure it out.
It's like Lincoln Logs andafter that we were professional
(10:28):
for putting 'em together.
Mike Harrison (10:30):
I guess IKEA is Swedish and not Norwegian, but I guess
it's like putting, IKEA furnituretogether with those instructions
and like trying to figure out.
Stephen Saint (10:39):
Yeah, there was a lot of stomping around
Mike Harrison (10:44):
Are they all full hook up?
Like you mentioned, you didn'twant necessarily the cabin.
So do the barrels have facilities,bathroom power, bathroom, water suit?
Stephen Saint (10:50):
No, we have two small ones and two big ones.
The small ones have aqueen mattress in them.
They have an outlet and a light and a fan.
And then where you sleep in front,they have like little benches, but
we set 'em up close to a bathhouse.
And that's all they have.
And it's like the little vinylmattresses you had when you were in
kindergarten when you were done, youhad to wipe 'em off and stack 'em.
(11:11):
That's what it is.
You provide your own beddingor sleeping bags or whatever.
And they're actually way more popular thanme and my wife could have ever expected.
Kaleigh Day (11:19):
They sound awesome.
Mike Harrison (11:21):
Yeah.
Very Instagram, right?
Maybe you could surf, you could do oneof those surf houses in a Camping barrel,
get some water and then combine both.
Stephen Saint (11:30):
I installed a tap on the back side of the barrel so
people, looks more like a tap barrel.
Jeff Hoffman (11:37):
Huh
Mike Harrison (11:38):
Alright, I'm gonna come back to you too 'cause
I have some more questions.
But first, Jeff Hoffman, what hascome across your desk recently?
What's on your mind?
Jeff Hoffman (11:51):
There's some legislation in Ohio that's if
they could affect other states.
The county commissioners are comingafter our, right now all taxes have to
go to the first bureau or a something
Mike Harrison (12:17):
they, I'm sorry, is that, can you hear Jeff or is that my audio?
Kaleigh Day (12:22):
No, I can't quite hear you.
Jeff Hoffman (12:26):
Okay, hold on.
Lemme check my, I think let me turn on.
Mike Harrison (12:31):
You're back now.
There you go.
Kaleigh Day (12:32):
Yeah.
Stephen Saint (12:33):
You're back.
Jeff Hoffman (12:35):
Oh.
Alright.
Anyway, there's a bill in Ohiothat, will allow the county
commissioners take two thirds ofthe revenue created from bed taxes.
And use it on whatever they want.
In our county, we have pretty good budget.
They already take an additional 2%, buton our share of the 2%, we raise over
(12:59):
$4 million for a very small county.
Given that they would take two thirds ofthat, we would be hard pressed to operate.
But right now I'm sitting inHawking County, which would
come under the same rules.
If they took two thirds of theirs, theirvisitors bureau would cease to exist
(13:22):
because they couldn't to operate on what'sleft of the funding and it's all based on,
we have one commissioner that introducedthe bill that doesn't believe marketing
works and thinks it's a waste of time andthe money should go into infrastructure.
So.
Mike Harrison (13:37):
We're dealing with the same thing at one of our properties in Arizona.
And, the way they make their revenue isthrough either sales tax or they want to
increase the bed tax and, they want togo up five points, which is considerable.
They would put this small town numbertwo in the entire state in terms of total
(13:59):
taxes and, they could go down the streetto the next city and pay five or 6% less.
And the next city has moreretail, more restaurants.
And we're trying to explain to them, weunderstand your goal and we understand,
you want to increase revenues, but what'sthe long-term vision of how much occupancy
will you lose in dissatisfaction?
Because somebody can chooseto go to a more developed city
(14:23):
or town and pay less taxes.
Jeff Hoffman (14:26):
Yeah.
They can do that to a point,but at some point they
Mike Harrison (14:31):
Yes.
Jeff Hoffman (14:31):
Kill the goat, golden goose.
Mike Harrison (14:32):
That's the conversation we're having with them.
Jeff Hoffman (14:33):
And like with me, obviously, 'cause I'm old I've been on
that visitor's bureau for about 30 someyears and we built it from a revenue
of about $250,000 where we couldn'tpay our bills to up to $4 million.
And it's only because we've gotten it thathigh that people now are interested in us
(14:56):
because they think we have spare money.
So everybody comes with their hand out.
The county thinks it's their moneybecause it's a tax and I think
it's my money because I built theproperties that are electing the taxes.
So we have a difference ofphilosophies on how that money is
(15:16):
raised.
Yeah, I feel it's.
Mike Harrison (15:18):
For those that dunno, both Jeff and I have been involved
with the National Association OHI andthe CCCA, the Credit Card Competition
Act, as well as some other legislation.
And, what Jeff's talking about or whetherit's the CCCA or whether it's stay rules,
or whether it's permitting park models.
I think the message is clear isthat, it's important that everybody
gets involved in either their local,state or national associations of
(15:41):
various kinds, tourism boards, theRV associations, outdoor hospitality
associations, because our industryhas been very unregulated for so long.
And as there's more prominence andvisibility into it, as it continues
to grow, people are starting,just like what Jeff described.
Oh, I want some more money.
And they're changing things thatare not benefiting, our properties.
(16:01):
So we've gotta have a voice
Jeff Hoffman (16:03):
And yeah.
One of the reasons Mike and I are bothinvolved is in the Campground that I'm
sitting at, we were gonna, we were puttingin a ba, brand new bathhouse and laundry.
We were doing it as a modular atfirst we were building it to RVIA
code, which is the park model code.
(16:25):
That was not acceptable to thestate of Ohio because this county
doesn't have a building inspector.
So then we had to go tothe commercial inspector.
So my bathhouse went from $75,000 to$140,000 to meet the Ohio Coast prices.
(16:48):
Yeah.
So that, that's one reason like yourbarrels that you built you probably didn't
have to go through a lot of zoning becauseyou don't have that much in the Dakotas.
If I tried to build those inOhio, I couldn't get 'em done.
I'd have to bring 'em up to some.
Kaleigh Day (17:08):
Even if they're under like a certain size, no.
Interesting.
Jeff Hoffman (17:11):
Yep.
Yeah it used to be in Ohio you canget by with anything under 12 by 12
is considered a shed, but once youstart, we've got, and that's all I got.
That's how I got some, yeah,that's how I got some in Ohio.
But then they found out peoplewere sleeping in my sheds.
(17:31):
And that opened up and.
Mike Harrison (17:32):
It's like you're sitting in your giant shed that's
bigger than 12 by 12, where.
Jeff Hoffman (17:37):
Yeah.
This is the pavilion.
Mike Harrison (17:40):
Yeah.
Jeff Hoffman (17:40):
But that'll lead to another conversation, Mike.
It's almost the end of June and Idon't have people doing activities.
Mike Harrison (17:49):
Yeah.
One of the things I wanna talk aboutspecifically as I said, I wanted to
swing back to Kaleigh and Stephen,especially since you guys are north.
One of you are on the north sideof the border, and the other one's
on the south side of the border.
And here we are in summertime.
And I'm curious, what the travel trendsare looking like in your markets this
summer, with, Canadian travelers comingsouth and American travelers going
(18:11):
north, or Canadian travelers going west.
How is everybody'smarkets doing right now?
Kaleigh Day (18:18):
I know our bookings are up.
Quite a bit, especiallyin the shoulder season.
Our high season's always full.
That's just been standard.
But our shoulder season's been great.
It's been sunnier out here, so our springtends to be really weather dependent.
We're in a rainforest, so if it's heavilyraining, people don't wanna trek all
the way out here to camp in the rain.
But yeah, we've been really quite full.
(18:40):
We've been having a handful of Americans.
A lot of Canadians are staying inCanada, so we've been getting a lot of
people have been canceling their tripsto the States, we've been finding.
And then a lot of Europeans, we get aton of Germans and Dutch coming over.
They rent RVs in the Rockies and then theycome over and they finish on Vancouver
(19:01):
Island and then fly out of Vancouver.
Those numbers are up fromlast year, I would say.
But, so yeah, so far this season andour surf lessons have been going out
daily which for Spring is great for us.
People have been spending money.
And I think, I don't know if it's 'causelike things are a little bit tighter,
so now people are Camping a bit more.
We tend to thrive when people need to,they don't have the budget to really
(19:25):
stay at like the expensive resorts aroundhere, so Camping is a great alternative.
But yeah, so we've had a great spring sofar, and our summer's looking really good.
Mike Harrison (19:34):
It's interesting with the tumult of the border and tariffs
and like you said, you may have anunintentional boon for Canadians visiting
you and they may have normally visitedsouth, which is positive for you.
How about you, Stephen?
How's it, how are you guys doing?
Stephen Saint (19:49):
Our May was slow 'cause we were just rain and cold.
This year, we were highs werefifties with a lot of rain, so May
was a little bit slower than normal.
Our memorial day was really horrible'cause it rained the entire weekend.
As far as our Canadian travelers go andour international travelers the only trend
that I've seen with the Canadians andin fact I've got one or two in here now.
(20:13):
When some of the political environmenthappened, we saw an influx of
cancellations from Quebec, nowhere else.
I don't know what that's about.
I'm not Canadian.
I don't know.
But
most of the Quebec canceled.
But the folks from some of theother Providences, I think I
(20:35):
maybe had one from, Nova Scotia.
But the rest of my Canadians are booking.
We'll see, and we will see an influxin Canadians at the end of September.
We're open till the 15th of October.
So I will see an influx from aboutthe middle of September to when
I close with them heading south.
So I don't know if I'll seethat this year, but my Canadian
(20:56):
booking seem to be on track.
My international bookings are actually,I think, a little higher than normal.
That may be in part the fact thatlast year we switched over to an
online booking company and youdidn't have to call or email.
So we are seeing a more influxof the international travelers
with the Reynolds coming in.
(21:16):
We just had a, I don't know whatyou call 'em from the Netherlands.
They were just here yesterday.
Kaleigh Day (21:22):
Yeah
Stephen Saint (21:24):
So, we do quite a few of them.
Netherlands and Germany.
Kaleigh Day (21:30):
Oh.
Who do you use for youronline booking platform?
Stephen Saint (21:33):
Firefly.
Kaleigh Day (21:35):
Oh, gotcha.
I was just curious 'cause if you, allof your sites are like uniquely shaped
and that's like our Campground as well.
So we had issues withfinding the right software.
Stephen Saint (21:45):
I like firefly because you could go in and put
your minimum maximum lengths in.
So if you had a really bigsite, you didn't wanna really
book a 25 footer in there.
You wanna try to get a bigger rigin there because that's what I do.
I have to play Jenga all summer, makesure I get rig is rig appropriate
sizes of the sites, like I said,'cause none of them are the same.
(22:05):
Firefly will do that.
They have, and it's worked great for me.
I've never had any problemswith it and we have some.
The international travelers arebooking 'cause they can, instead of
sending us an email and having to setus up and go back and forth through
email, they just go in and book it.
Mike Harrison (22:21):
Yep.
And Jeff, you said you're empty.
So to me that indicates, is itjust you or is Ohio down and
having challenges, I take it?
Jeff Hoffman (22:30):
A lot of it has been spring never arrived.
We have had rain almost everyweekend and every day with
temperatures ranging from 40 to 60.
It is horrible.
Even our pool won't heat.
Kaleigh Day (22:50):
Oh, no.
Jeff Hoffman (22:51):
Because, it's not used to going down to 40 at night.
The pool heater is running 24.
I don't know if it aided overall.
I'll have to look at that.
Last year.
I have tough time comparing year overyear because if I have to take April
out, because we had the full eclipse lastyear, which put a big chunk of money in
(23:17):
April when we're not usually even open.
But I still hold the manager's feet tothe fire for the total not, yeah, I don't
Mike Harrison (23:25):
And I can't believe that was only last, I think that was
like three years ago, that eclipse.
I can't believe that was only last year.
But, it's interesting, depending on whichdata source you look at, Ohio released one
of their reports last month and, showedthat Canadian travels absolutely down
and considerable for some areas, right?
And if you're in New Hampshireor Vermont, I'm sorry, right?
They're showing that Canadian travelsdown like 50%, in those two states, the
(23:49):
number one and two highest hit, accordingto the day to day And then some of the
other northern states, like Ohio and someof the border states like Michigan are
also seeing some considerable declines.
From the Canadian travel, US Southernstates, we experienced it in Q1 already.
Just in general, right?
The value of the Canadian dollar, thegas prices, regardless of the whole
(24:11):
political climate and tariffs and allthat stuff, so it'll be interesting to see
once we hit, interesting to see once wehit our next booking season, especially
snowbird season, what that looks like.
We've already felt like Uhoh, we'rea little nervous, but do we need to
be even, more nervous for next year?
Jeff Hoffman (24:27):
Yeah.
Have you noticed thebooking window has shorten?
Mike Harrison (24:32):
Oh, of course.
Yeah.
Jeff Hoffman (24:33):
You know, we were three, four weeks out, if not more, and now
I feel like I'm back in the hotelbusiness where on Monday I'm losing
my mind because we're not booked.
And then by the weekend we.
Mike Harrison (24:48):
Yeah, it's,
yeah, looking at the data dig, the bookingwindow has shrunk, 20 to 30% year on year.
It's much closer.
And for us, same thingfor all of our properties.
We've seen the booking windowshrink as well, 20 to 30%.
And, it speaks to what Kaleigh wastalking about, is there's, much
closer to home vacations, staycations,people not traveling longer distances.
(25:11):
Which means, you don't have the grandvacations, you have more shorter
vacations, but also shorter stays as well.
Stephen Saint (25:18):
They're also staying a little longer.
I've noticed, at least with me we're onlyabout half the bookings that we normally
get right now, which is normal for us.
But we're three quarters ofthe way there for our nights.
The nights that I expect to get overthe summer we're three quarters of the
way there, with only half the bookingsthat we would have for all year.
That indicates to me that they'rewe're getting longer stays on average.
Mike Harrison (25:42):
Yeah.
It always amazes me, or,it's just so interesting.
Kaleigh Day (25:47):
It's funny because we prefer shorter stays 'cause we want more people
coming and going to make do the surfrentals, do the lessons, everything.
So our bread and butteris like two, three days.
Yeah.
Stephen Saint (25:59):
We're more average about four to five, but they seem
to be up to six to seven now.
Kaleigh Day (26:05):
Oh, nice.
Is it 'cause of just like local activitiesso they stay and then they go and see?
Stephen Saint (26:10):
Yeah.
I mean you've got, we've got MountRushmore, we've got Crazy Horse,
we've got Custer State Park.
That's what we call the big three.
But then you could come here andspend a month and not see everything
that the Black Hills has to offer.
I've been here 13 years andhaven't seen everything.
So there's a lot to do.
And a little niche for everybody.
We've got history, we've got nature,we've got all kinds of different
(26:33):
things for different people.
We've got fishing, we've got boating.
So it's a little bit for everybody.
A lot of people come to South Dakotaand think, oh, I'll book two days 'cause
we're just gonna see Mount Rushmore.
And then they get here and they'relike can I get four or five more days?
I did not realize that therewas so much going on here.
And it's about 50 50 if Ican even give it to 'em.
(26:54):
And usually they end up coming back'cause they realize, oh, two days
just isn't enough in the Blank Hills.
Jeff Hoffman (27:00):
I think what we're proving here is what I learned when I thought I
could systematize campgrounds across the.
Mike Harrison (27:08):
Oh, of course.
Jeff Hoffman (27:09):
The thing is that all campgrounds have their own identity
their own market, their own stay pattern.
And when you try to figure them out,we just have two campgrounds on here
that they're both diverse in theirdemographics and what they're getting
(27:33):
and how they're getting the people.
So it just shows how much diversitythere is across the industry.
Stephen Saint (27:41):
Yeah even in the town of Custer, there's five or six different
types of campgrounds, if satellite TV isimportant to you, you don't stay with me.
I got too many trees.
You're not getting a satellite,and we've had people come in,
is my satellite gonna work here?
99% sure's not gonna work here.
(28:02):
There's too many trees.
And there's a Campground on the road andthey said, your satellite will work here.
We have no trees.
And so even in the same town, wehave different aspects of Campground.
Within 15 miles of me,there's 55 campgrounds.
Mike Harrison (28:18):
I think it's, to your point, Jeff, it's very interesting
because not just diversity of market,but diversity of sophistication.
Stephen is just talking about howhe just got his online booking
platform, recently, right?
Where like our properties, we wouldn'tbe able to exist without online booking.
And we've had them for, years.
And, the needs of each Campground andthe development of each Campground
doesn't mean his isn't successfuland mine isn't, or vice versa.
(28:41):
Oh, we just lost Jeff.
It just speaks to thatinteresting diversity.
One of the things that we've beenworking on with both the National
Association as well as Sage OutdoorAdvisory and a couple other partners.
Is trying to classify thecampgrounds by category, so that
we can nationalize the data, sothat you can have an understanding
by Campground, category by market.
(29:03):
What is a market doing?
How healthy are they?
What is the data for oops.
I think I just kicked them out.
Try again, Jeff.
Sorry.
And so we'll see how that, plays out,but it's hard to describe trends when
you're speaking about your localizedmarket, because every market is different.
I do have a follow-up question forStephen and Kaleigh and, hopefully
(29:25):
Jeff hops back on as you'retalking about your travelers there.
How many of them do youthink are renting an RV?
Do you know?
Or do you see a lot of RV rentals orsomething you don't even look at or track.
Kaleigh Day (29:36):
Me?
Mike Harrison (29:38):
Both.
Anyone?
Kaleigh Day (29:39):
Yeah.
I would say maybe a thirdof our RVs are rentals.
Maybe more.
Yeah.
We get a lot of like rented RVs.
The Europeans come like we havea lot of Europeans, so Yeah.
And we've been getting more and morepeople local people, Airbnbing their
trailers and motor homes, so driving itout to the Campground and putting it on
(30:02):
the campsite for people to stay in, whichis an interesting new thing that like has
been happening the last couple of years.
So that's been like an interesting,but that's I guess another RV rental.
Yeah, I would say probably like a thirdmaybe, if not half of our RVs are rentals.
Mike Harrison (30:18):
Interesting.
That's a lot.
How about you, Stephen?
Kaleigh Day (30:21):
It's a huge, yeah.
Stephen Saint (30:22):
I would say it's sometimes it's hard to keep track of 'cause I don't
necessarily know if it's a rental or not.
But what do I do see, yeah.
All our international cruise Americathere's that other company was at
Monterey or something like that.
RV you see a lot of.
And plus we work well with a lot ofthe RV share people here in the area.
They bring out their RV, theydrop it off, they come pick it up.
(30:45):
In fact, we have a bigger companycalled Jack's campers here.
And I think they havehundreds of RVs they rent out.
And they do the same thing.
They bring it down, drop it off.
I would probably say probably 10%maybe are rentals that we're seeing.
We see 'em every day.
I mean at least one or two everyday of some form of rental.
Mike Harrison (31:07):
And how, and Kaleigh, if you're seeing a third
to half, is that intentional?
Do you market to themor how do you get there?
Is it by accident?
Kaleigh Day (31:16):
No, it's just the area.
It's like a high demand.
It's on that path that like a lotof Europeans or people that want to
come see the area and they wanna seeVancouver Island and it's spread they're
coming and they don't have cars andso yeah, I think it's just the best
way to see all Canada so spread out.
So I think it's the best wayfor them to see everything.
(31:36):
But yeah, we don't really advertise orhave any deals with those companies.
We have a handful of tour companies orlike the middlemen that will book the
RVs and the stays for people from Europe.
And so we have a handful of themthat go in and book hundreds
of reservations for the summer,but they just do it all online.
But yeah, no, we don't do anytype of advertising with them.
Stephen Saint (31:58):
It's interesting and Stephen, you mentioned you don't
really track it, but, one of thethings that I've been trying to figure
out, we have multiple propertiesacross the country, and to me, an
untapped market is the connection ofthese RV rentals and the campgrounds.
Somebody has an RV and they wanna rent it.
Then when you rent the RV, thenyou gotta go somewhere, right?
So how do we bridge the gap, to reallymake sure that the people that are
(32:23):
trying to rent, how do we get them tothe campgrounds, and so we've been trying
to talk to outdoors in RV share andfigure out how to better connect, the
renter, the rentee, and the campgrounds.
We haven't been able to crack that.
Kaleigh Day (32:37):
I would see, company's called Canadian Camping Adventures, and
they're the ones that like reach out tothe people in Europe predominantly that
will book the RV, they book the RV andthe length, and then this company goes in
and sets their whole itinerary for Canada.
Yeah, maybe a good one to just look into.
Stephen Saint (32:55):
One of the things that I do with the rentals is one, I've gotten
to know most of the people that are onRV share renting their RV in this area.
I've gotten to know them and so whenpeople are running their RVs looking
for it, I've just built relationshipswith those people and they're like,
what Campground do you recommend?
And I know there's at least one that Iknow of that she will only recommend us.
(33:20):
And then of course Iwork with Jack's campers.
They're the big company and I'mtalking to their delivery guys
all the time when they deliver.
And it's just gotten to know.
And in fact, one of the delivery drivers,he's told me, he goes, you're one of the
best campgrounds we'd like to come to.
'cause you're not yellingat us all the time.
Because if they show up too earlyor pick up too late, that can
cause check-in, checkout problems.
(33:41):
And I try to understand they're busy,they're trying to do a job like me, and
as long as they're not picking it up atfive o'clock in the afternoon when I got
a guy sitting here waiting to get in atone, I'm usually pretty easy to work with.
And the one guy's yeahyou don't ever yell.
You're like, Hey, Greg.
Yeah, you're here.
Get out.
And so I think building thosepersonal relationships with
(34:01):
people at least has helped me.
Mike Harrison (34:03):
Yeah.
It's interesting.
Jeff, when you had hopped off,one of the things I had asked was,
how many RV rentals, do you knoware coming to your Campground?
And Kaleigh had said a third to halfand Stephen said some, maybe 10%.
And I'm, curious the question for you too.
And what I had asked secondarilyafter that is, it seems like there's
a disconnect in the industry ofhow, the connection of the person
who rents the RV, the renter of theRV, and then how you get them to a
(34:26):
Campground and bridging that gap.
And marketing, as a Campground directlyto the renter, how do you get to them?
Jeff Hoffman (34:33):
Yeah, that actually has started.
It's a new issue.
That's probably what, fouryears old, because before
that, that market didn't exist.
But it's the same as anything.
You just have to make the RV share personunderstand that the people are still
(34:54):
under the control of the Campground.
Not calling that guy to complainabout how mean we are because they
still have to follow our rules.
And then also, we only work with RV sharepeople that know that and work with us.
Most of the time we know who'scoming in by how they booked it.
(35:18):
And we will offer some deals ona slow weekend to maybe get their
price down to, 'cause to me.
Mike Harrison (35:25):
Yeah.
But that's usually you'reon the back end of that.
You're just receiving it.
And that's, the RV rental industry,has grown to over, it's almost a
billion dollars now in revenue.
Jeff Hoffman (35:33):
Yep.
Mike Harrison (35:33):
And so while it's a newer market, it's a considerable market.
And I've been talking to Good Sam,I've been talking to Outdoorsy, I've
been talking to RV Share Campingworld and how do you connect the
destination with the person thatneeds a destination in a rental?
But I haven't figured that out yet.
Jeff Hoffman (35:49):
Yeah.
No, that's a question forthe guy that runs this show.
Mike Harrison (35:53):
Yeah.
Where are you, Brian?
Jeff Hoffman (35:56):
Yeah.
Mike Harrison (35:56):
I even Chat GPTed it, but yeah, it wasn't very helpful.
Jeff Hoffman (36:02):
But yeah, originally that's how, before I switched to park
models, I rented out RVs and I pitypeople that RVs are getting a little
bit better, but most people don'thave a clue of how to operate an RV.
Kaleigh Day (36:18):
No.
Jeff Hoffman (36:18):
They're always shutting off the water heater.
They don't realize it's only likea 10 gallon tank, so they run a
hot water, they have no clue howto operate the stoves, the toilet.
So we did that for two years andthen we switched everything over
and actually I went to Indianaand designed some park models and
(36:39):
had 'em built and brought 'em in.
So everything matched what we had at home.
Flush toilet water heater.
So I don't wanna get backinto the RV rental business.
I'm happy if people want to do that.
I just would like to get a piece of it.
Mike Harrison (36:57):
That's the thing is you don't need to be the rental, but how do
you get the RV share, the share of theCruise America, the outdoorsy people?
How do you get them to come to you?
Jeff Hoffman (37:04):
Yeah.
Mike Harrison (37:05):
Kaleigh doesn't care.
She's sitting fat and proud over here.
She sells out every year.
Kaleigh Day (37:11):
Not in early.
That's.
Mike Harrison (37:12):
They're up.
And, everybody comes tous and we're destinations.
I don't care.
Jeff Hoffman (37:21):
And Stephen is saying that his international businesses, but I'm
wondering if Kaleigh's is up becauseI don't think that the US overall is
getting European trade that we used to.
(37:41):
Right now, I don't think we're number onein the world as a destination country.
Wondered if that could be whyyou're having an increase in
European, especially Germany.
'cause I know we're notgetting along with them.
Kaleigh Day (38:00):
Yeah.
I would say, I think that'sthe expectation and the trend.
I haven't really looked at our summerbookings to see like what the demographic
is yet, but so far this spring we've hada lot of Europeans, which like last year,
like it's definitely up from last year.
I haven't really looked at thenumbers 'cause like overall
it's just weather-wise.
It's just a better busier spring.
But I think, I'm assuming it has to dosomething with that, because a lot of
(38:23):
times they'll dip down into the statesand then come up through Port Angeles
to Victoria to get to the islands.
And so I'm assuming maybe I'd becurious to see if they're just like,
not going elsewhere right now, yeah.
Jeff Hoffman (38:36):
Mike, what do you see in the hotel industry for international travel.
Mike Harrison (38:44):
It's similar trends.
And Marriott had revised their guidance.
It was either last monthor the month before.
Interestingly enough year to date,Marriott, they're up year on year year
to date, but then they revised theirguidance down the rest of the year by half
a point, which is considerable, right?
That's quite massive for Marriot to do.
But obviously they were looking atwhat the political climate was with
the tariffs and, some of the tradethings and, the feeling of America.
(39:07):
And so they're seeing, similar trends,but as we've already talked about,
that depends on the market too.
And everything is so market dependent.
So it's hard to answer that question.
'cause if you look at some markets,they're up 10%, some are down four
and but nationally, it's stable ish.
But, very similar trends.
But, going from RV shares is anotherkind of segue into another topic I
(39:28):
want to talk about, which is, everyyear, whether you're up or down,
clearly we always have to prove.
And what are some of the thingsthat, that you all are doing
to boost revenues, right?
Whether it's you're down and you wantto get back up, or whether you're
already up and you want to be more up,what are the things that you look at
every year as you're growing revenues?
What are some of thethings that you're doing?
Kaleigh Day (39:51):
Yes.
You want me to go.
Yep.
Stephen Saint (39:55):
Ladies first.
Kaleigh Day (39:57):
I'll go.
The babbler will start babbling.
One thing that we start doing isI think when sales are low, we can
always capitalize and capitalize onour surf lessons and rent rentals.
So we've really diversified our revenue.
So there's a lot more room to ifone area is lacking, we can really
push towards another area, right?
So getting it all starts withour staff, in my opinion.
(40:20):
So the campground's alwaysgoing to be relatively busy.
That's just our area inthe high demand of Camping.
But really pushing, not pushingthat sounds bad, but really trying
to get people to sell surf lessons.
So doing some type of, we tend toincentivize our staff to really
upsell surf rentals and surf lessons.
And that is one way we can reallylike boost sales or increase our
(40:43):
revenue when things are down.
So I would say that's typicallylike a shortsighted reaction
when things aren't going well.
And then just really increasingspending money on marketing.
Mike Harrison (40:54):
Pushing.
You can use the word pushing.
There's nothing wrongwith the word pushing.
Kaleigh Day (40:57):
It just sounds like, take it.
Mike Harrison (41:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
How about you Stephen?
What do you look to do each year?
Are you trying to boost sales, driverevenue, find additional opportunities?
Stephen Saint (41:07):
Honestly, I'm in a good area.
I'm in Black Hills from 20miles from Mount Rushmore.
Marketing is really easy here.
Not only am I doing stuff, but I'vegot the state pushing South Dakota.
We have a lot, some of the thingsthat I've been doing over the last
couple of years is personally,I've been going to travel shows.
I'm a board member fordifferent organizations.
(41:28):
And so they do a lot of travel shows.
One of the Perks of going to thetravel show is you get to promote
your place as well as the Black Hills.
So I've been doing a lot of that.
I've been and it seems to be working.
Last year I went to North Dakota andto a couple of the shows up there
and I got an influx of North Dakotas.
This year, I went tolacrosse, a double down.
(41:48):
I went to Lacrosse Wisconsin,and I went to Omaha.
And now we have an influx of Wisconsinand Nebraska, people coming in.
So that seems to be working quite a bit.
I'm a big people talking person, so Ilike to meet people and talk to people
and I don't get nervous like Kaleigh.
It was really nice to goto their shows and she, the
(42:10):
people, and they remember that.
And so all the other campgroundsthat are there getting promoted, they
remember, oh, that guy talked to us.
And so I've been doing a lot of that.
So I did travel quite a bit this winter.
One of the things we used to bepretty bad on Facebook, so we're
trying to be a little bit betteron that social media stuff.
And there's a couple of influencershere in South Dakota that I've
(42:32):
chatted with and everything,and they've promoted us as well.
It's hard to say.
The Black Hills really does sell itself.
I just gotta be able to get outthere in front of everybody else.
And the stuff that I'm doing seems to be.
Mike Harrison (42:46):
Yeah, it's interesting, especially when
you're an established Campground.
You get your repeat businessand notoriety and clearly I can
tell you're bashful Stephen.
I had to move Kaleigh offthe main screen to the side.
I didn't want her to, be inthe full screen the whole time.
And you're not babbling.
You're doing great.
Kaleigh Day (43:01):
Thanks.
Mike Harrison (43:03):
And Jeff, how about you when you're consulting, right?
And especially maybe a newer park, right?
How do you get them to build theirnotoriety, to build their marketing, to
build their awareness, to drive revenue?
Jeff Hoffman (43:19):
When you're starting Campground, we had brought up diversified
markets and some of that before.
What you have to do is figure out,looking at your data, if you're a
new park, you don't have that yet,but comparing other industry data for
that area, what's your actual marketand how do you hit that specifically?
(43:46):
And I usually recommend, depending onyour size, hiring a marketing firm.
That can deep dive into data and actuallypinpoint like with yours they could hit
groups that are interested in surfingand maybe interested in, because they've
looked up surfing online someplace.
Mike Harrison (44:08):
Don't give her any tips.
She doesn't need any more business.
Jeff Hoffman (44:11):
No.
Oh, okay.
That's right.
And neither Dakota.
Kaleigh Day (44:15):
Meta specific campaigns and ads.
Jeff Hoffman (44:18):
Yep.
So I guess I'm talkingto you, Mike, right?
You must need that.
Mike Harrison (44:23):
Oh, yes, please.
Kaleigh Day (44:23):
Oh, no.
I'll still take your help, Jeff.
Mike Harrison (44:25):
Please coach.
Jeff Hoffman (44:27):
But you've gotta find out even where you're competing
against other campgrounds.
You're going to have a niche that'syours that you can market to, that
makes you different from every otherCampground that you're competing with.
And some of that is you'regonna have to do some footwork.
(44:50):
Also, be very involved with your visitorsbureau, your chamber of commerce, your
state associations, national 'cause thenational does give a great data dig.
And we also get that atour state association.
And it just helps find out wherepeople are coming from so you know
where to put your advertising dollars.
Mike Harrison (45:11):
So then let's let's translate that to the
Campground that you've been withjust a short time, 57 years.
For one that you clearly know the dataand all the market information about how
do you boost revenues year on year fora Campground that you have dialed in,
maximized, how do you grow every year?
Jeff Hoffman (45:26):
It's getting tougher.
There's 10% and 15%growths are slowing down.
So anymore, I'm happy with eight.
But yes, what we do is take a lookat what's new in our area, who's
looking at our area this year.
What we did was market to everybodywithin our three hour drive limit
(45:51):
that attended a Camping show.
So if they went to a Camping show, wesomehow got an IP address for that and
we could send them some emails and alsotry to hit them up on Google's Google ads
when anything that comes up on Camping.
(46:11):
We have an ad there.
At this Campground we havea great partner called KOA.
That does a lot of the nationalmarketing, so we concentrate
on our three hour drive time.
We don't have to do a lot of national,so we're looking at, we have an
amusement park called Cedar Pointthat's a mile away from us, and then
(46:36):
they built sports facilities forbasketball, soccer, baseball, all
of that a half a mile away from us.
So we've been trying to book in morewith Cedar Point, trying to figure
out how to get their people to knowthat we exist, even though we've
been there for 900 years there.
Stephen Saint (46:58):
There's a good chance I stayed at your place then.
If you're only a mileaway from Cedar Point.
Jeff Hoffman (47:03):
You may have.
It's pretty good size.
There's a few.
I used to own 'em all in our area and
Stephen Saint (47:11):
I grew up gonna Cedar Point twice a year.
Jeff Hoffman (47:15):
Did you, where are you from?
Stephen Saint (47:16):
Pittsburgh originally.
Jeff Hoffman (47:18):
I can bypass that.
Mike Harrison (47:23):
So how many Aaron Rogers memes have you seen in the last, months?
Do you
Stephen Saint (47:27):
I try to block all those.
Jeff Hoffman (47:30):
Yeah.
We used to have a horrible rivalrywith this team from Pittsburgh,
but we no longer have a teamthat's worth worrying about.
So.
Mike Harrison (47:42):
Neither Pittsburgh, so you don't need to worry.
Jeff Hoffman (47:46):
Oh.
Oh.
Mike Harrison (47:48):
You don't need to worry about that.
Kaleigh's what's this footballthing you're talking about?
Kaleigh Day (47:52):
I'm actually originally from Seattle.
Mike Harrison (47:53):
Oh my gosh.
So you're a Seahawks fan.
Kaleigh Day (47:56):
Seahawks.
Jeff Hoffman (48:00):
One of my favorite one of my favorite coaches.
I don't know about theteam, but I love the coach.
Kaleigh Day (48:04):
Is it Carol or the Yeah.
Jeff Hoffman (48:07):
Yeah.
He's.
Yeah.
You know where he stands?
Yeah.
Good.
Mike Harrison (48:14):
That's I don't like that.
Oh, the Steelers, huh?
Yep.
Yep.
I don't like the Seahawksor are the Steelers.
I don't care about the Browns.
Jeff Hoffman (48:24):
Yeah.
What have they done?
What have the Patriots done for you?
Mike Harrison (48:27):
More than what the browns have done for you.
Jeff Hoffman (48:34):
The Browns have made me give up on Sunday football
and go play golf on Sundays.
Mike Harrison (48:43):
It's interesting.
Oh my, she's got her material.
I should grab all my papers.
Kaleigh Day (48:49):
I was just waiting for it.
Mike Harrison (48:51):
Yeah, man.
Threw it up on the screen andI guess if you're in Vancouver.
Jeff Hoffman (48:55):
But yeah getting back to that, because we do have a
franchise that markets nationally weare allowed to focus our dollars on
a basically three hour drive time.
Unfortunately, part of that, which isabout half of our market, is water,
(49:15):
because nobody comes from Lake Erie.
So our drive time we used to getin the eighties, we got a lot of
Canadians, but since the nineties, ourCanadian business has been nothing.
I should look at the demographics forCedar Point, but they don't release 'em to
(49:36):
see how many Canadian visitors they get.
Mike Harrison (49:38):
Cedar Point doesn't release demographic stats every year?
Jeff Hoffman (49:44):
They're very controlling of their data.
Even when we try to get just raw datafor bed tax use on their hotel sales.
They won't give it to us.
Mike Harrison (49:55):
We got two minutes left, so I'll give everybody a chance
to have kind of a parting word.
If they have a thought or somethingthey wanna share please feel free.
We won't start with Katie.
We'll give her a chance to wrap up.
So Stephen, you have anythoughts or parting words?
Stephen Saint (50:11):
No, I just wanted to thank you guys for having me on.
It's been great.
Camping, we love it.
We're all different.
And if Kaleigh ever needs advice oranything, my number's always open.
We can always compare notes and,other than, Steelers Super Bowl
wins against Seattle, we can'treally compare those too much.
But no, it's been great and I wisheverybody a good, great season.
Kaleigh Day (50:34):
Yeah, thanks.
Mike Harrison (50:34):
Thank you, Jeff.
Jeff Hoffman (50:39):
We won't talk about Super Bowl, we'll leave that off the table.
Other than that my parting shot isthat every campground's different.
I am a consultant, but I willanswer questions and talk to you
because that doesn't cost youanything, doesn't cost me anything.
(51:00):
We can go from there after a chat, butif you need some advice, I'm always open.
Mike Harrison (51:05):
Superstar Kaleigh?
Kaleigh Day (51:07):
A risky move.
Opening that door.
Alright, no, this is awesome.
I honestly just love chattingwith people that run campgrounds.
It's such a niche, weird little, careerwe have with lots of wild stories
and, the insight is awesome and itwas great chatting with you guys.
And yeah, this was great.
Thanks for inviting me.
Mike Harrison (51:28):
Absolutely.
After you hear the outro music, youdon't need to stay on, just so you know.
But yeah, I'd like to thank all ofour guests, Stephen and Kaleigh for
joining us as new guests, and ofcourse, Jeff as a recurring guest, and
appreciate everybody's time and passion.
As you all say, this outdoorhospitality industry is amazing.
And, it's just so interestingand fun and able to connect
(51:48):
with the guests in the outdoors.
We've all got great opportunities andit's an amazing thing to be a part of.
With that, I wish everybodyhave a great July 4th coming up.
And
Jeff Hoffman (51:58):
Kaleigh, Stephen, very nice meeting you.
It was great to hear your story.
Nice to meet you guys.
Mike Harrison (52:04):
We'll catch everybody on the other side.
Good afternoon or good morning, or wherever you are, and welcome
to Modern Campground Fireside Chats.
I am not Brian Searl.
My name's Mike Harrison.
I'm with CRR Hospitality.
I'm excited to guest host thisweek's edition of Fireside Chats.
And Jeff, that was the first time I everrealized that there was like this little
MC Fireside Chats in the intro music.
(01:06):
I've heard that probably 50 times.
I just picked up on that now.
But anyhow on the weekly editionsevery week there's a different group of
panelists as well as different topics andthings that we talk about, and we discuss
ongoing trends, markets challenges,wins, opportunities, threats, et cetera.
And this week we no different.
We have a regular recurring guestsas well as a couple new guests
(01:28):
that will join us this week.
So I'd love to go around realquickly and just introduce everybody.
My name is Mike Harrison.
I am the Chief OperatingOfficer of CRR Hospitality.
We own and manage our own outdoorhospitality assets like Verde,
Rancho V Resort, and we also do thirdparty management and consulting.
And always happy to be here.
(01:50):
Jeff.
Jeff Hoffman (01:53):
My name's Jeff Hoffman and I am a founder of Camp Strategy, which
is a consulting firm for campgrounds,whether it's due diligence, feasibility
studies, or just coaching you throughCampground , a little bit more profitable.
Mike Harrison (02:16):
Great.
And we were just talking about how longhave you owned your current Campground?
Jeff Hoffman (02:23):
Yes, I am the oldest guy in the group, 1968.
Mike Harrison (02:31):
Now everybody else calculate when they were born figure out.
That's impressive.
Yeah.
What an amazing accomplishment.
Kaleigh.
Kaleigh Day (02:39):
Oh yeah.
Hi, I'm Kaleigh Day.
I own Surf Junction Campground.
Out on or in Ucluelet?
On Vancouver Island, BC
Mike Harrison (02:50):
Cool.
Kaleigh Day (02:51):
Yeah.
Mike Harrison (02:52):
Great.
Stephen?
Stephen Saint (02:54):
Stephen Saint Fort.
I own Fort Welikit Campgroundat Custer, South Dakota in the
Black Hills of South Dakota.
Mike Harrison (03:02):
Near the park.
Stephen Saint (03:04):
I'm sorry?
Mike Harrison (03:05):
Right near the National Park.
Stephen Saint (03:07):
The Custer State Park.
Black Hills National Forest.
Mike Harrison (03:10):
National Forest.
Gotcha.
That's great.
Before we get into trends, I'dlove to hear maybe Kaleigh and
Stephen, if you guys could describea little bit about your properties.
That's always interesting tohear about and yours are both
very interesting and unique.
So it'd be great, if you couldtalk about what you do and what
you run and what you own and let usknow what a little bit about them.
Kaleigh Day (03:27):
Yeah.
Stephen, is it okay if I go first?
Mike Harrison (03:29):
Absolutely.
Kaleigh Day (03:31):
Yeah.
Okay.
Sweet.
Yeah.
Surf Junction, it's a forested campsite or Campground located just south of
the Pacific Rim National Park Reserve.
So we're not on the water,but we're very close.
And the Campground itself haslike the classic Campground
infrastructure, so tenting sitesor like partially service sites.
(03:51):
And then full servicecampsites, like the large RV.
And then we have a lot of amenitieslike hot tubs, sauna, flush toilets,
hot showers, all that good stuff.
And then we have a surf school thatoperates out of the Pacific Room
National Park which is awesome.
And then we have surf rentals and alittle general store and coffee shop,
(04:12):
and we have about 90 campsites and 72acres, but we only utilize about 40.
And yeah, I think that's about it.
I'm nervous.
Mike Harrison (04:22):
Can I borrow the other 32 acres then if if
we're not being used right now?
Kaleigh Day (04:25):
No, we just want it to stay wild.
Mike Harrison (04:28):
Tell us a little bit more, talk about a niche Campground, right?
How many campgrounds in thecountry offer surf school, right?
So maybe talk a little bit moreabout that, and then does it
drive the Camping business?
Does it standalone?
What kind of revenues that do?
Very interested in that.
Kaleigh Day (04:41):
Yeah, so I found that with the Campground being more of a traditional
Campground, so we're not like an RV park.
We don't really have that like highdensity yield on just on our land.
We also keep our Camping price pointrelatively low to get a lot of people in.
And then we make a lot of our revenuecomes from the trifecta of Camping
(05:01):
surf lessons and surf rentals.
So I found that our lower pricepoints helps generate a lot more
campers in the shoulder season.
We fill up and then we make ourrevenue off of the add-ons, so like
the coffees, the merchandise, and thenreally pushing the sales on our surf
lessons and then our surf rentals anddoing packages and that sort of stuff.
(05:22):
Yeah, it's we've been able to grow itover the years, which has been nice.
We were able to expand theCampground, which was huge for
us, hence the like 72 acres.
'cause the original Campground webought was 18 and then we expanded back.
But yeah, the surf lessons, it's ahuge part of our business and it also
helps build our community with ourcampers and our guests and a lot of
(05:43):
yeah, like camper loyalty I guess.
'cause they take lessons from us.
They come back every year, they startdoing rentals and they bring their
friends, their kids grow up doing lessonsand they come back over the years.
Yeah.
I dunno if that answers your question.
Mike Harrison (05:58):
Yeah, no, it's there's nothing to be nervous about, right?
We're all just having aconversation or a Fireside Chat.
Kaleigh Day (06:04):
Yeah, I know right.
Mike Harrison (06:05):
I don't see any fire.
Kaleigh Day (06:06):
Problem when I'm nervous.
Mike Harrison (06:07):
Yeah.
What I'm curious and it's not aninquisition, I'm more, I can't help myself
and I'm just curious about your business.
Did you acquire the Campgroundas an existing and there was
already a surf school there?
Or did you acquire andcreate the surf school?
Kaleigh Day (06:21):
Yeah, so Surf Junction already existed.
We bought it 13 years ago and it wason the original 18 acres and it's
one of Ucluelet's first surf schools.
It was quite a bit smaller and they didsurf rentals as well out of the office.
And then we've just expanded it.
So we offer more lessons, more rentals.
We pushed it out of our little officeand now we have this like surf shack.
(06:46):
So it's more visible.
And yeah, so we bought it preexisting,but we've had, have since expanded it.
Mike Harrison (06:53):
And so you're on Vancouver Island, so is it hard to get to you?
Kaleigh Day (06:57):
Yes, but we're quite the destination.
I don't know if you guys GoogleTofino, it's like you Ucluelet's
like the less, Tofino is kindalike the well-known surf spot.
It's Canada's California, if you will.
So there's lots of big, beautifulbeaches and it's quite the destinations.
We have a lot of Europeanpeople that come.
But yeah, it's five and ahalf hours from Vancouver.
(07:17):
It's a ferry ride.
It's a long windy road out here.
It's not for the faint of heart.
Mike Harrison (07:23):
So people aren't driving by your Campground, they're
coming specifically to see you?
Kaleigh Day (07:28):
Yes.
Yeah.
In the area in general, it'sjust at capacity with visitors.
So we open our reservations in January andlike by June, we're full for the summer.
Mike Harrison (07:40):
I have more questions, but I'm gonna come back.
Kaleigh Day (07:42):
Yeah.
Mike Harrison (07:43):
Stephen, how about you?
Tell us a little bit about your park.
Stephen Saint (07:46):
We're just outside the town of Custer.
We're on the north east side orCuster heading up to Sylvan Lake.
We're about 22 acres.
We have a hundred sites total.
71 of them are RV sites, and theyrange from 30 amp water and electric
only to the 50 amp pull through sites.
It's quite a different range.
(08:06):
One of the unique things about our placeis not two sites are exactly the same.
They're all unique.
They're all very different.
We are heavily tree.
So you're in the forestwhen you're staying with us.
We've got deer and turkey thatrun through the Campground
daily, two, three times a day.
One of our unique things that wehave that I really like to talk
(08:27):
about is our Camping barrels.
We have Camping barrels.
They're not traditionalCamping or sleeping cabin.
They look like a giant whiskey barrel.
They're really unique.
We actually had to get themspecial ordered in from Norway.
We get a lot of comments about them.
They're just sleeping.
They just have a mattress anda little bit of electricity.
(08:48):
But they're really neat.
I tell everyone, check 'em out.
We got plenty of pictures, but they're, Ithink when we got them, we were the fourth
Campground in the country to get 'em.
Mike Harrison (08:57):
Wow.
Interesting.
What made you decide to orderspecifically the Camping barrels?
Stephen Saint (09:03):
We had some full service cabins, but they're a little,
they're little bit pricey, and wehave a two night minimum on 'em.
And people just wanted a night someplace,especially like the Tenors wanted, if
it was raining, they wanted to get outtathe rain, but they didn't wanna pay
$200 a night for a full service cabin.
They just needed some place to crash.
And so we started searching around and meand my wife are all about being different
(09:24):
and unique and we started on a search,okay, we need to find some lower price
cabins that we can get people into.
And we kept seeing all the normal ones.
No offense if you have'em, but that's not us.
And we started noticing these round thingsthat they're very popular in Europe.
I guess there's all differentkinds of configurations in Europe.
(09:46):
And I'm like, how do I getmy hands on some of those?
And I reached out to some of thecompanies in Europe and some of the
campgrounds in Europe that had 'em,and none of them had shipped, none
of them had shipped to the States.
And I found a distributor inConnecticut and he was able to
(10:07):
get me four of them from Norway.
And so we got 'em in and they come in abig crate, you gotta put 'em together.
And of course the instructionsaren't all that well.
So the very first one was long andlaborist to try to figure it out.
It's like Lincoln Logs andafter that we were professional
(10:28):
for putting 'em together.
Mike Harrison (10:30):
I guess IKEA is Swedish and not Norwegian, but I guess
it's like putting, IKEA furnituretogether with those instructions
and like trying to figure out.
Stephen Saint (10:39):
Yeah, there was a lot of stomping around
Mike Harrison (10:44):
Are they all full hook up?
Like you mentioned, you didn'twant necessarily the cabin.
So do the barrels have facilities,bathroom power, bathroom, water suit?
Stephen Saint (10:50):
No, we have two small ones and two big ones.
The small ones have aqueen mattress in them.
They have an outlet and a light and a fan.
And then where you sleep in front,they have like little benches, but
we set 'em up close to a bathhouse.
And that's all they have.
And it's like the little vinylmattresses you had when you were in
kindergarten when you were done, youhad to wipe 'em off and stack 'em.
(11:11):
That's what it is.
You provide your own beddingor sleeping bags or whatever.
And they're actually way more popular thanme and my wife could have ever expected.
Kaleigh Day (11:19):
They sound awesome.
Mike Harrison (11:21):
Yeah.
Very Instagram, right?
Maybe you could surf, you could do oneof those surf houses in a Camping barrel,
get some water and then combine both.
Stephen Saint (11:30):
I installed a tap on the back side of the barrel so
people, looks more like a tap barrel.
Jeff Hoffman (11:37):
Huh
Mike Harrison (11:38):
Alright, I'm gonna come back to you too 'cause
I have some more questions.
But first, Jeff Hoffman, what hascome across your desk recently?
What's on your mind?
Jeff Hoffman (11:51):
There's some legislation in Ohio that's if
they could affect other states.
The county commissioners are comingafter our, right now all taxes have to
go to the first bureau or a something
Mike Harrison (12:17):
they, I'm sorry, is that, can you hear Jeff or is that my audio?
Kaleigh Day (12:22):
No, I can't quite hear you.
Jeff Hoffman (12:26):
Okay, hold on.
Lemme check my, I think let me turn on.
Mike Harrison (12:31):
You're back now.
There you go.
Kaleigh Day (12:32):
Yeah.
Stephen Saint (12:33):
You're back.
Jeff Hoffman (12:35):
Oh.
Alright.
Anyway, there's a bill in Ohiothat, will allow the county
commissioners take two thirds ofthe revenue created from bed taxes.
And use it on whatever they want.
In our county, we have pretty good budget.
They already take an additional 2%, buton our share of the 2%, we raise over
(12:59):
$4 million for a very small county.
Given that they would take two thirds ofthat, we would be hard pressed to operate.
But right now I'm sitting inHawking County, which would
come under the same rules.
If they took two thirds of theirs, theirvisitors bureau would cease to exist
(13:22):
because they couldn't to operate on what'sleft of the funding and it's all based on,
we have one commissioner that introducedthe bill that doesn't believe marketing
works and thinks it's a waste of time andthe money should go into infrastructure.
So.
Mike Harrison (13:37):
We're dealing with the same thing at one of our properties in Arizona.
And, the way they make their revenue isthrough either sales tax or they want to
increase the bed tax and, they want togo up five points, which is considerable.
They would put this small town numbertwo in the entire state in terms of total
(13:59):
taxes and, they could go down the streetto the next city and pay five or 6% less.
And the next city has moreretail, more restaurants.
And we're trying to explain to them, weunderstand your goal and we understand,
you want to increase revenues, but what'sthe long-term vision of how much occupancy
will you lose in dissatisfaction?
Because somebody can chooseto go to a more developed city
(14:23):
or town and pay less taxes.
Jeff Hoffman (14:26):
Yeah.
They can do that to a point,but at some point they
Mike Harrison (14:31):
Yes.
Jeff Hoffman (14:31):
Kill the goat, golden goose.
Mike Harrison (14:32):
That's the conversation we're having with them.
Jeff Hoffman (14:33):
And like with me, obviously, 'cause I'm old I've been on
that visitor's bureau for about 30 someyears and we built it from a revenue
of about $250,000 where we couldn'tpay our bills to up to $4 million.
And it's only because we've gotten it thathigh that people now are interested in us
(14:56):
because they think we have spare money.
So everybody comes with their hand out.
The county thinks it's their moneybecause it's a tax and I think
it's my money because I built theproperties that are electing the taxes.
So we have a difference ofphilosophies on how that money is
(15:16):
raised.
Yeah, I feel it's.
Mike Harrison (15:18):
For those that dunno, both Jeff and I have been involved
with the National Association OHI andthe CCCA, the Credit Card Competition
Act, as well as some other legislation.
And, what Jeff's talking about or whetherit's the CCCA or whether it's stay rules,
or whether it's permitting park models.
I think the message is clear isthat, it's important that everybody
gets involved in either their local,state or national associations of
(15:41):
various kinds, tourism boards, theRV associations, outdoor hospitality
associations, because our industryhas been very unregulated for so long.
And as there's more prominence andvisibility into it, as it continues
to grow, people are starting,just like what Jeff described.
Oh, I want some more money.
And they're changing things thatare not benefiting, our properties.
(16:01):
So we've gotta have a voice
Jeff Hoffman (16:03):
And yeah.
One of the reasons Mike and I are bothinvolved is in the Campground that I'm
sitting at, we were gonna, we were puttingin a ba, brand new bathhouse and laundry.
We were doing it as a modular atfirst we were building it to RVIA
code, which is the park model code.
(16:25):
That was not acceptable to thestate of Ohio because this county
doesn't have a building inspector.
So then we had to go tothe commercial inspector.
So my bathhouse went from $75,000 to$140,000 to meet the Ohio Coast prices.
(16:48):
Yeah.
So that, that's one reason like yourbarrels that you built you probably didn't
have to go through a lot of zoning becauseyou don't have that much in the Dakotas.
If I tried to build those inOhio, I couldn't get 'em done.
I'd have to bring 'em up to some.
Kaleigh Day (17:08):
Even if they're under like a certain size, no.
Interesting.
Jeff Hoffman (17:11):
Yep.
Yeah it used to be in Ohio you canget by with anything under 12 by 12
is considered a shed, but once youstart, we've got, and that's all I got.
That's how I got some, yeah,that's how I got some in Ohio.
But then they found out peoplewere sleeping in my sheds.
(17:31):
And that opened up and.
Mike Harrison (17:32):
It's like you're sitting in your giant shed that's
bigger than 12 by 12, where.
Jeff Hoffman (17:37):
Yeah.
This is the pavilion.
Mike Harrison (17:40):
Yeah.
Jeff Hoffman (17:40):
But that'll lead to another conversation, Mike.
It's almost the end of June and Idon't have people doing activities.
Mike Harrison (17:49):
Yeah.
One of the things I wanna talk aboutspecifically as I said, I wanted to
swing back to Kaleigh and Stephen,especially since you guys are north.
One of you are on the north sideof the border, and the other one's
on the south side of the border.
And here we are in summertime.
And I'm curious, what the travel trendsare looking like in your markets this
summer, with, Canadian travelers comingsouth and American travelers going
(18:11):
north, or Canadian travelers going west.
How is everybody'smarkets doing right now?
Kaleigh Day (18:18):
I know our bookings are up.
Quite a bit, especiallyin the shoulder season.
Our high season's always full.
That's just been standard.
But our shoulder season's been great.
It's been sunnier out here, so our springtends to be really weather dependent.
We're in a rainforest, so if it's heavilyraining, people don't wanna trek all
the way out here to camp in the rain.
But yeah, we've been really quite full.
(18:40):
We've been having a handful of Americans.
A lot of Canadians are staying inCanada, so we've been getting a lot of
people have been canceling their tripsto the States, we've been finding.
And then a lot of Europeans, we get aton of Germans and Dutch coming over.
They rent RVs in the Rockies and then theycome over and they finish on Vancouver
(19:01):
Island and then fly out of Vancouver.
Those numbers are up fromlast year, I would say.
But, so yeah, so far this season andour surf lessons have been going out
daily which for Spring is great for us.
People have been spending money.
And I think, I don't know if it's 'causelike things are a little bit tighter,
so now people are Camping a bit more.
We tend to thrive when people need to,they don't have the budget to really
(19:25):
stay at like the expensive resorts aroundhere, so Camping is a great alternative.
But yeah, so we've had a great spring sofar, and our summer's looking really good.
Mike Harrison (19:34):
It's interesting with the tumult of the border and tariffs
and like you said, you may have anunintentional boon for Canadians visiting
you and they may have normally visitedsouth, which is positive for you.
How about you, Stephen?
How's it, how are you guys doing?
Stephen Saint (19:49):
Our May was slow 'cause we were just rain and cold.
This year, we were highs werefifties with a lot of rain, so May
was a little bit slower than normal.
Our memorial day was really horrible'cause it rained the entire weekend.
As far as our Canadian travelers go andour international travelers the only trend
that I've seen with the Canadians andin fact I've got one or two in here now.
(20:13):
When some of the political environmenthappened, we saw an influx of
cancellations from Quebec, nowhere else.
I don't know what that's about.
I'm not Canadian.
I don't know.
But
most of the Quebec canceled.
But the folks from some of theother Providences, I think I
(20:35):
maybe had one from, Nova Scotia.
But the rest of my Canadians are booking.
We'll see, and we will see an influxin Canadians at the end of September.
We're open till the 15th of October.
So I will see an influx from aboutthe middle of September to when
I close with them heading south.
So I don't know if I'll seethat this year, but my Canadian
(20:56):
booking seem to be on track.
My international bookings are actually,I think, a little higher than normal.
That may be in part the fact thatlast year we switched over to an
online booking company and youdidn't have to call or email.
So we are seeing a more influxof the international travelers
with the Reynolds coming in.
(21:16):
We just had a, I don't know whatyou call 'em from the Netherlands.
They were just here yesterday.
Kaleigh Day (21:22):
Yeah
Stephen Saint (21:24):
So, we do quite a few of them.
Netherlands and Germany.
Kaleigh Day (21:30):
Oh.
Who do you use for youronline booking platform?
Stephen Saint (21:33):
Firefly.
Kaleigh Day (21:35):
Oh, gotcha.
I was just curious 'cause if you, allof your sites are like uniquely shaped
and that's like our Campground as well.
So we had issues withfinding the right software.
Stephen Saint (21:45):
I like firefly because you could go in and put
your minimum maximum lengths in.
So if you had a really bigsite, you didn't wanna really
book a 25 footer in there.
You wanna try to get a bigger rigin there because that's what I do.
I have to play Jenga all summer, makesure I get rig is rig appropriate
sizes of the sites, like I said,'cause none of them are the same.
(22:05):
Firefly will do that.
They have, and it's worked great for me.
I've never had any problemswith it and we have some.
The international travelers arebooking 'cause they can, instead of
sending us an email and having to setus up and go back and forth through
email, they just go in and book it.
Mike Harrison (22:21):
Yep.
And Jeff, you said you're empty.
So to me that indicates, is itjust you or is Ohio down and
having challenges, I take it?
Jeff Hoffman (22:30):
A lot of it has been spring never arrived.
We have had rain almost everyweekend and every day with
temperatures ranging from 40 to 60.
It is horrible.
Even our pool won't heat.
Kaleigh Day (22:50):
Oh, no.
Jeff Hoffman (22:51):
Because, it's not used to going down to 40 at night.
The pool heater is running 24.
I don't know if it aided overall.
I'll have to look at that.
Last year.
I have tough time comparing year overyear because if I have to take April
out, because we had the full eclipse lastyear, which put a big chunk of money in
(23:17):
April when we're not usually even open.
But I still hold the manager's feet tothe fire for the total not, yeah, I don't
Mike Harrison (23:25):
And I can't believe that was only last, I think that was
like three years ago, that eclipse.
I can't believe that was only last year.
But, it's interesting, depending on whichdata source you look at, Ohio released one
of their reports last month and, showedthat Canadian travels absolutely down
and considerable for some areas, right?
And if you're in New Hampshireor Vermont, I'm sorry, right?
They're showing that Canadian travelsdown like 50%, in those two states, the
(23:49):
number one and two highest hit, accordingto the day to day And then some of the
other northern states, like Ohio and someof the border states like Michigan are
also seeing some considerable declines.
From the Canadian travel, US Southernstates, we experienced it in Q1 already.
Just in general, right?
The value of the Canadian dollar, thegas prices, regardless of the whole
(24:11):
political climate and tariffs and allthat stuff, so it'll be interesting to see
once we hit, interesting to see once wehit our next booking season, especially
snowbird season, what that looks like.
We've already felt like Uhoh, we'rea little nervous, but do we need to
be even, more nervous for next year?
Jeff Hoffman (24:27):
Yeah.
Have you noticed thebooking window has shorten?
Mike Harrison (24:32):
Oh, of course.
Yeah.
Jeff Hoffman (24:33):
You know, we were three, four weeks out, if not more, and now
I feel like I'm back in the hotelbusiness where on Monday I'm losing
my mind because we're not booked.
And then by the weekend we.
Mike Harrison (24:48):
Yeah, it's,
yeah, looking at the data dig, the bookingwindow has shrunk, 20 to 30% year on year.
It's much closer.
And for us, same thingfor all of our properties.
We've seen the booking windowshrink as well, 20 to 30%.
And, it speaks to what Kaleigh wastalking about, is there's, much
closer to home vacations, staycations,people not traveling longer distances.
(25:11):
Which means, you don't have the grandvacations, you have more shorter
vacations, but also shorter stays as well.
Stephen Saint (25:18):
They're also staying a little longer.
I've noticed, at least with me we're onlyabout half the bookings that we normally
get right now, which is normal for us.
But we're three quarters ofthe way there for our nights.
The nights that I expect to get overthe summer we're three quarters of the
way there, with only half the bookingsthat we would have for all year.
That indicates to me that they'rewe're getting longer stays on average.
Mike Harrison (25:42):
Yeah.
It always amazes me, or,it's just so interesting.
Kaleigh Day (25:47):
It's funny because we prefer shorter stays 'cause we want more people
coming and going to make do the surfrentals, do the lessons, everything.
So our bread and butteris like two, three days.
Yeah.
Stephen Saint (25:59):
We're more average about four to five, but they seem
to be up to six to seven now.
Kaleigh Day (26:05):
Oh, nice.
Is it 'cause of just like local activitiesso they stay and then they go and see?
Stephen Saint (26:10):
Yeah.
I mean you've got, we've got MountRushmore, we've got Crazy Horse,
we've got Custer State Park.
That's what we call the big three.
But then you could come here andspend a month and not see everything
that the Black Hills has to offer.
I've been here 13 years andhaven't seen everything.
So there's a lot to do.
And a little niche for everybody.
We've got history, we've got nature,we've got all kinds of different
(26:33):
things for different people.
We've got fishing, we've got boating.
So it's a little bit for everybody.
A lot of people come to South Dakotaand think, oh, I'll book two days 'cause
we're just gonna see Mount Rushmore.
And then they get here and they'relike can I get four or five more days?
I did not realize that therewas so much going on here.
And it's about 50 50 if Ican even give it to 'em.
(26:54):
And usually they end up coming back'cause they realize, oh, two days
just isn't enough in the Blank Hills.
Jeff Hoffman (27:00):
I think what we're proving here is what I learned when I thought I
could systematize campgrounds across the.
Mike Harrison (27:08):
Oh, of course.
Jeff Hoffman (27:09):
The thing is that all campgrounds have their own identity
their own market, their own stay pattern.
And when you try to figure them out,we just have two campgrounds on here
that they're both diverse in theirdemographics and what they're getting
(27:33):
and how they're getting the people.
So it just shows how much diversitythere is across the industry.
Stephen Saint (27:41):
Yeah even in the town of Custer, there's five or six different
types of campgrounds, if satellite TV isimportant to you, you don't stay with me.
I got too many trees.
You're not getting a satellite,and we've had people come in,
is my satellite gonna work here?
99% sure's not gonna work here.
(28:02):
There's too many trees.
And there's a Campground on the road andthey said, your satellite will work here.
We have no trees.
And so even in the same town, wehave different aspects of Campground.
Within 15 miles of me,there's 55 campgrounds.
Mike Harrison (28:18):
I think it's, to your point, Jeff, it's very interesting
because not just diversity of market,but diversity of sophistication.
Stephen is just talking about howhe just got his online booking
platform, recently, right?
Where like our properties, we wouldn'tbe able to exist without online booking.
And we've had them for, years.
And, the needs of each Campground andthe development of each Campground
doesn't mean his isn't successfuland mine isn't, or vice versa.
(28:41):
Oh, we just lost Jeff.
It just speaks to thatinteresting diversity.
One of the things that we've beenworking on with both the National
Association as well as Sage OutdoorAdvisory and a couple other partners.
Is trying to classify thecampgrounds by category, so that
we can nationalize the data, sothat you can have an understanding
by Campground, category by market.
(29:03):
What is a market doing?
How healthy are they?
What is the data for oops.
I think I just kicked them out.
Try again, Jeff.
Sorry.
And so we'll see how that, plays out,but it's hard to describe trends when
you're speaking about your localizedmarket, because every market is different.
I do have a follow-up question forStephen and Kaleigh and, hopefully
(29:25):
Jeff hops back on as you'retalking about your travelers there.
How many of them do youthink are renting an RV?
Do you know?
Or do you see a lot of RV rentals orsomething you don't even look at or track.
Kaleigh Day (29:36):
Me?
Mike Harrison (29:38):
Both.
Anyone?
Kaleigh Day (29:39):
Yeah.
I would say maybe a thirdof our RVs are rentals.
Maybe more.
Yeah.
We get a lot of like rented RVs.
The Europeans come like we havea lot of Europeans, so Yeah.
And we've been getting more and morepeople local people, Airbnbing their
trailers and motor homes, so driving itout to the Campground and putting it on
(30:02):
the campsite for people to stay in, whichis an interesting new thing that like has
been happening the last couple of years.
So that's been like an interesting,but that's I guess another RV rental.
Yeah, I would say probably like a thirdmaybe, if not half of our RVs are rentals.
Mike Harrison (30:18):
Interesting.
That's a lot.
How about you, Stephen?
Kaleigh Day (30:21):
It's a huge, yeah.
Stephen Saint (30:22):
I would say it's sometimes it's hard to keep track of 'cause I don't
necessarily know if it's a rental or not.
But what do I do see, yeah.
All our international cruise Americathere's that other company was at
Monterey or something like that.
RV you see a lot of.
And plus we work well with a lot ofthe RV share people here in the area.
They bring out their RV, theydrop it off, they come pick it up.
(30:45):
In fact, we have a bigger companycalled Jack's campers here.
And I think they havehundreds of RVs they rent out.
And they do the same thing.
They bring it down, drop it off.
I would probably say probably 10%maybe are rentals that we're seeing.
We see 'em every day.
I mean at least one or two everyday of some form of rental.
Mike Harrison (31:07):
And how, and Kaleigh, if you're seeing a third
to half, is that intentional?
Do you market to themor how do you get there?
Is it by accident?
Kaleigh Day (31:16):
No, it's just the area.
It's like a high demand.
It's on that path that like a lotof Europeans or people that want to
come see the area and they wanna seeVancouver Island and it's spread they're
coming and they don't have cars andso yeah, I think it's just the best
way to see all Canada so spread out.
So I think it's the best wayfor them to see everything.
(31:36):
But yeah, we don't really advertise orhave any deals with those companies.
We have a handful of tour companies orlike the middlemen that will book the
RVs and the stays for people from Europe.
And so we have a handful of themthat go in and book hundreds
of reservations for the summer,but they just do it all online.
But yeah, no, we don't do anytype of advertising with them.
Stephen Saint (31:58):
It's interesting and Stephen, you mentioned you don't
really track it, but, one of thethings that I've been trying to figure
out, we have multiple propertiesacross the country, and to me, an
untapped market is the connection ofthese RV rentals and the campgrounds.
Somebody has an RV and they wanna rent it.
Then when you rent the RV, thenyou gotta go somewhere, right?
So how do we bridge the gap, to reallymake sure that the people that are
(32:23):
trying to rent, how do we get them tothe campgrounds, and so we've been trying
to talk to outdoors in RV share andfigure out how to better connect, the
renter, the rentee, and the campgrounds.
We haven't been able to crack that.
Kaleigh Day (32:37):
I would see, company's called Canadian Camping Adventures, and
they're the ones that like reach out tothe people in Europe predominantly that
will book the RV, they book the RV andthe length, and then this company goes in
and sets their whole itinerary for Canada.
Yeah, maybe a good one to just look into.
Stephen Saint (32:55):
One of the things that I do with the rentals is one, I've gotten
to know most of the people that are onRV share renting their RV in this area.
I've gotten to know them and so whenpeople are running their RVs looking
for it, I've just built relationshipswith those people and they're like,
what Campground do you recommend?
And I know there's at least one that Iknow of that she will only recommend us.
(33:20):
And then of course Iwork with Jack's campers.
They're the big company and I'mtalking to their delivery guys
all the time when they deliver.
And it's just gotten to know.
And in fact, one of the delivery drivers,he's told me, he goes, you're one of the
best campgrounds we'd like to come to.
'cause you're not yellingat us all the time.
Because if they show up too earlyor pick up too late, that can
cause check-in, checkout problems.
(33:41):
And I try to understand they're busy,they're trying to do a job like me, and
as long as they're not picking it up atfive o'clock in the afternoon when I got
a guy sitting here waiting to get in atone, I'm usually pretty easy to work with.
And the one guy's yeahyou don't ever yell.
You're like, Hey, Greg.
Yeah, you're here.
Get out.
And so I think building thosepersonal relationships with
(34:01):
people at least has helped me.
Mike Harrison (34:03):
Yeah.
It's interesting.
Jeff, when you had hopped off,one of the things I had asked was,
how many RV rentals, do you knoware coming to your Campground?
And Kaleigh had said a third to halfand Stephen said some, maybe 10%.
And I'm, curious the question for you too.
And what I had asked secondarilyafter that is, it seems like there's
a disconnect in the industry ofhow, the connection of the person
who rents the RV, the renter of theRV, and then how you get them to a
(34:26):
Campground and bridging that gap.
And marketing, as a Campground directlyto the renter, how do you get to them?
Jeff Hoffman (34:33):
Yeah, that actually has started.
It's a new issue.
That's probably what, fouryears old, because before
that, that market didn't exist.
But it's the same as anything.
You just have to make the RV share personunderstand that the people are still
(34:54):
under the control of the Campground.
Not calling that guy to complainabout how mean we are because they
still have to follow our rules.
And then also, we only work with RV sharepeople that know that and work with us.
Most of the time we know who'scoming in by how they booked it.
(35:18):
And we will offer some deals ona slow weekend to maybe get their
price down to, 'cause to me.
Mike Harrison (35:25):
Yeah.
But that's usually you'reon the back end of that.
You're just receiving it.
And that's, the RV rental industry,has grown to over, it's almost a
billion dollars now in revenue.
Jeff Hoffman (35:33):
Yep.
Mike Harrison (35:33):
And so while it's a newer market, it's a considerable market.
And I've been talking to Good Sam,I've been talking to Outdoorsy, I've
been talking to RV Share Campingworld and how do you connect the
destination with the person thatneeds a destination in a rental?
But I haven't figured that out yet.
Jeff Hoffman (35:49):
Yeah.
No, that's a question forthe guy that runs this show.
Mike Harrison (35:53):
Yeah.
Where are you, Brian?
Jeff Hoffman (35:56):
Yeah.
Mike Harrison (35:56):
I even Chat GPTed it, but yeah, it wasn't very helpful.
Jeff Hoffman (36:02):
But yeah, originally that's how, before I switched to park
models, I rented out RVs and I pitypeople that RVs are getting a little
bit better, but most people don'thave a clue of how to operate an RV.
Kaleigh Day (36:18):
No.
Jeff Hoffman (36:18):
They're always shutting off the water heater.
They don't realize it's only likea 10 gallon tank, so they run a
hot water, they have no clue howto operate the stoves, the toilet.
So we did that for two years andthen we switched everything over
and actually I went to Indianaand designed some park models and
(36:39):
had 'em built and brought 'em in.
So everything matched what we had at home.
Flush toilet water heater.
So I don't wanna get backinto the RV rental business.
I'm happy if people want to do that.
I just would like to get a piece of it.
Mike Harrison (36:57):
That's the thing is you don't need to be the rental, but how do
you get the RV share, the share of theCruise America, the outdoorsy people?
How do you get them to come to you?
Jeff Hoffman (37:04):
Yeah.
Mike Harrison (37:05):
Kaleigh doesn't care.
She's sitting fat and proud over here.
She sells out every year.
Kaleigh Day (37:11):
Not in early.
That's.
Mike Harrison (37:12):
They're up.
And, everybody comes tous and we're destinations.
I don't care.
Jeff Hoffman (37:21):
And Stephen is saying that his international businesses, but I'm
wondering if Kaleigh's is up becauseI don't think that the US overall is
getting European trade that we used to.
(37:41):
Right now, I don't think we're number onein the world as a destination country.
Wondered if that could be whyyou're having an increase in
European, especially Germany.
'cause I know we're notgetting along with them.
Kaleigh Day (38:00):
Yeah.
I would say, I think that'sthe expectation and the trend.
I haven't really looked at our summerbookings to see like what the demographic
is yet, but so far this spring we've hada lot of Europeans, which like last year,
like it's definitely up from last year.
I haven't really looked at thenumbers 'cause like overall
it's just weather-wise.
It's just a better busier spring.
But I think, I'm assuming it has to dosomething with that, because a lot of
(38:23):
times they'll dip down into the statesand then come up through Port Angeles
to Victoria to get to the islands.
And so I'm assuming maybe I'd becurious to see if they're just like,
not going elsewhere right now, yeah.
Jeff Hoffman (38:36):
Mike, what do you see in the hotel industry for international travel.
Mike Harrison (38:44):
It's similar trends.
And Marriott had revised their guidance.
It was either last monthor the month before.
Interestingly enough year to date,Marriott, they're up year on year year
to date, but then they revised theirguidance down the rest of the year by half
a point, which is considerable, right?
That's quite massive for Marriot to do.
But obviously they were looking atwhat the political climate was with
the tariffs and, some of the tradethings and, the feeling of America.
(39:07):
And so they're seeing, similar trends,but as we've already talked about,
that depends on the market too.
And everything is so market dependent.
So it's hard to answer that question.
'cause if you look at some markets,they're up 10%, some are down four
and but nationally, it's stable ish.
But, very similar trends.
But, going from RV shares is anotherkind of segue into another topic I
(39:28):
want to talk about, which is, everyyear, whether you're up or down,
clearly we always have to prove.
And what are some of the thingsthat, that you all are doing
to boost revenues, right?
Whether it's you're down and you wantto get back up, or whether you're
already up and you want to be more up,what are the things that you look at
every year as you're growing revenues?
What are some of thethings that you're doing?
Kaleigh Day (39:51):
Yes.
You want me to go.
Yep.
Stephen Saint (39:55):
Ladies first.
Kaleigh Day (39:57):
I'll go.
The babbler will start babbling.
One thing that we start doing isI think when sales are low, we can
always capitalize and capitalize onour surf lessons and rent rentals.
So we've really diversified our revenue.
So there's a lot more room to ifone area is lacking, we can really
push towards another area, right?
So getting it all starts withour staff, in my opinion.
(40:20):
So the campground's alwaysgoing to be relatively busy.
That's just our area inthe high demand of Camping.
But really pushing, not pushingthat sounds bad, but really trying
to get people to sell surf lessons.
So doing some type of, we tend toincentivize our staff to really
upsell surf rentals and surf lessons.
And that is one way we can reallylike boost sales or increase our
(40:43):
revenue when things are down.
So I would say that's typicallylike a shortsighted reaction
when things aren't going well.
And then just really increasingspending money on marketing.
Mike Harrison (40:54):
Pushing.
You can use the word pushing.
There's nothing wrongwith the word pushing.
Kaleigh Day (40:57):
It just sounds like, take it.
Mike Harrison (41:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
How about you Stephen?
What do you look to do each year?
Are you trying to boost sales, driverevenue, find additional opportunities?
Stephen Saint (41:07):
Honestly, I'm in a good area.
I'm in Black Hills from 20miles from Mount Rushmore.
Marketing is really easy here.
Not only am I doing stuff, but I'vegot the state pushing South Dakota.
We have a lot, some of the thingsthat I've been doing over the last
couple of years is personally,I've been going to travel shows.
I'm a board member fordifferent organizations.
(41:28):
And so they do a lot of travel shows.
One of the Perks of going to thetravel show is you get to promote
your place as well as the Black Hills.
So I've been doing a lot of that.
I've been and it seems to be working.
Last year I went to North Dakota andto a couple of the shows up there
and I got an influx of North Dakotas.
This year, I went tolacrosse, a double down.
(41:48):
I went to Lacrosse Wisconsin,and I went to Omaha.
And now we have an influx of Wisconsinand Nebraska, people coming in.
So that seems to be working quite a bit.
I'm a big people talking person, so Ilike to meet people and talk to people
and I don't get nervous like Kaleigh.
It was really nice to goto their shows and she, the
(42:10):
people, and they remember that.
And so all the other campgroundsthat are there getting promoted, they
remember, oh, that guy talked to us.
And so I've been doing a lot of that.
So I did travel quite a bit this winter.
One of the things we used to bepretty bad on Facebook, so we're
trying to be a little bit betteron that social media stuff.
And there's a couple of influencershere in South Dakota that I've
(42:32):
chatted with and everything,and they've promoted us as well.
It's hard to say.
The Black Hills really does sell itself.
I just gotta be able to get outthere in front of everybody else.
And the stuff that I'm doing seems to be.
Mike Harrison (42:46):
Yeah, it's interesting, especially when
you're an established Campground.
You get your repeat businessand notoriety and clearly I can
tell you're bashful Stephen.
I had to move Kaleigh offthe main screen to the side.
I didn't want her to, be inthe full screen the whole time.
And you're not babbling.
You're doing great.
Kaleigh Day (43:01):
Thanks.
Mike Harrison (43:03):
And Jeff, how about you when you're consulting, right?
And especially maybe a newer park, right?
How do you get them to build theirnotoriety, to build their marketing, to
build their awareness, to drive revenue?
Jeff Hoffman (43:19):
When you're starting Campground, we had brought up diversified
markets and some of that before.
What you have to do is figure out,looking at your data, if you're a
new park, you don't have that yet,but comparing other industry data for
that area, what's your actual marketand how do you hit that specifically?
(43:46):
And I usually recommend, depending onyour size, hiring a marketing firm.
That can deep dive into data and actuallypinpoint like with yours they could hit
groups that are interested in surfingand maybe interested in, because they've
looked up surfing online someplace.
Mike Harrison (44:08):
Don't give her any tips.
She doesn't need any more business.
Jeff Hoffman (44:11):
No.
Oh, okay.
That's right.
And neither Dakota.
Kaleigh Day (44:15):
Meta specific campaigns and ads.
Jeff Hoffman (44:18):
Yep.
So I guess I'm talkingto you, Mike, right?
You must need that.
Mike Harrison (44:23):
Oh, yes, please.
Kaleigh Day (44:23):
Oh, no.
I'll still take your help, Jeff.
Mike Harrison (44:25):
Please coach.
Jeff Hoffman (44:27):
But you've gotta find out even where you're competing
against other campgrounds.
You're going to have a niche that'syours that you can market to, that
makes you different from every otherCampground that you're competing with.
And some of that is you'regonna have to do some footwork.
(44:50):
Also, be very involved with your visitorsbureau, your chamber of commerce, your
state associations, national 'cause thenational does give a great data dig.
And we also get that atour state association.
And it just helps find out wherepeople are coming from so you know
where to put your advertising dollars.
Mike Harrison (45:11):
So then let's let's translate that to the
Campground that you've been withjust a short time, 57 years.
For one that you clearly know the dataand all the market information about how
do you boost revenues year on year fora Campground that you have dialed in,
maximized, how do you grow every year?
Jeff Hoffman (45:26):
It's getting tougher.
There's 10% and 15%growths are slowing down.
So anymore, I'm happy with eight.
But yes, what we do is take a lookat what's new in our area, who's
looking at our area this year.
What we did was market to everybodywithin our three hour drive limit
(45:51):
that attended a Camping show.
So if they went to a Camping show, wesomehow got an IP address for that and
we could send them some emails and alsotry to hit them up on Google's Google ads
when anything that comes up on Camping.
(46:11):
We have an ad there.
At this Campground we havea great partner called KOA.
That does a lot of the nationalmarketing, so we concentrate
on our three hour drive time.
We don't have to do a lot of national,so we're looking at, we have an
amusement park called Cedar Pointthat's a mile away from us, and then
(46:36):
they built sports facilities forbasketball, soccer, baseball, all
of that a half a mile away from us.
So we've been trying to book in morewith Cedar Point, trying to figure
out how to get their people to knowthat we exist, even though we've
been there for 900 years there.
Stephen Saint (46:58):
There's a good chance I stayed at your place then.
If you're only a mileaway from Cedar Point.
Jeff Hoffman (47:03):
You may have.
It's pretty good size.
There's a few.
I used to own 'em all in our area and
Stephen Saint (47:11):
I grew up gonna Cedar Point twice a year.
Jeff Hoffman (47:15):
Did you, where are you from?
Stephen Saint (47:16):
Pittsburgh originally.
Jeff Hoffman (47:18):
I can bypass that.
Mike Harrison (47:23):
So how many Aaron Rogers memes have you seen in the last, months?
Do you
Stephen Saint (47:27):
I try to block all those.
Jeff Hoffman (47:30):
Yeah.
We used to have a horrible rivalrywith this team from Pittsburgh,
but we no longer have a teamthat's worth worrying about.
So.
Mike Harrison (47:42):
Neither Pittsburgh, so you don't need to worry.
Jeff Hoffman (47:46):
Oh.
Oh.
Mike Harrison (47:48):
You don't need to worry about that.
Kaleigh's what's this footballthing you're talking about?
Kaleigh Day (47:52):
I'm actually originally from Seattle.
Mike Harrison (47:53):
Oh my gosh.
So you're a Seahawks fan.
Kaleigh Day (47:56):
Seahawks.
Jeff Hoffman (48:00):
One of my favorite one of my favorite coaches.
I don't know about theteam, but I love the coach.
Kaleigh Day (48:04):
Is it Carol or the Yeah.
Jeff Hoffman (48:07):
Yeah.
He's.
Yeah.
You know where he stands?
Yeah.
Good.
Mike Harrison (48:14):
That's I don't like that.
Oh, the Steelers, huh?
Yep.
Yep.
I don't like the Seahawksor are the Steelers.
I don't care about the Browns.
Jeff Hoffman (48:24):
Yeah.
What have they done?
What have the Patriots done for you?
Mike Harrison (48:27):
More than what the browns have done for you.
Jeff Hoffman (48:34):
The Browns have made me give up on Sunday football
and go play golf on Sundays.
Mike Harrison (48:43):
It's interesting.
Oh my, she's got her material.
I should grab all my papers.
Kaleigh Day (48:49):
I was just waiting for it.
Mike Harrison (48:51):
Yeah, man.
Threw it up on the screen andI guess if you're in Vancouver.
Jeff Hoffman (48:55):
But yeah getting back to that, because we do have a
franchise that markets nationally weare allowed to focus our dollars on
a basically three hour drive time.
Unfortunately, part of that, which isabout half of our market, is water,
(49:15):
because nobody comes from Lake Erie.
So our drive time we used to getin the eighties, we got a lot of
Canadians, but since the nineties, ourCanadian business has been nothing.
I should look at the demographics forCedar Point, but they don't release 'em to
(49:36):
see how many Canadian visitors they get.
Mike Harrison (49:38):
Cedar Point doesn't release demographic stats every year?
Jeff Hoffman (49:44):
They're very controlling of their data.
Even when we try to get just raw datafor bed tax use on their hotel sales.
They won't give it to us.
Mike Harrison (49:55):
We got two minutes left, so I'll give everybody a chance
to have kind of a parting word.
If they have a thought or somethingthey wanna share please feel free.
We won't start with Katie.
We'll give her a chance to wrap up.
So Stephen, you have anythoughts or parting words?
Stephen Saint (50:11):
No, I just wanted to thank you guys for having me on.
It's been great.
Camping, we love it.
We're all different.
And if Kaleigh ever needs advice oranything, my number's always open.
We can always compare notes and,other than, Steelers Super Bowl
wins against Seattle, we can'treally compare those too much.
But no, it's been great and I wisheverybody a good, great season.
Kaleigh Day (50:34):
Yeah, thanks.
Mike Harrison (50:34):
Thank you, Jeff.
Jeff Hoffman (50:39):
We won't talk about Super Bowl, we'll leave that off the table.
Other than that my parting shot isthat every campground's different.
I am a consultant, but I willanswer questions and talk to you
because that doesn't cost youanything, doesn't cost me anything.
(51:00):
We can go from there after a chat, butif you need some advice, I'm always open.
Mike Harrison (51:05):
Superstar Kaleigh?
Kaleigh Day (51:07):
A risky move.
Opening that door.
Alright, no, this is awesome.
I honestly just love chattingwith people that run campgrounds.
It's such a niche, weird little, careerwe have with lots of wild stories
and, the insight is awesome and itwas great chatting with you guys.
And yeah, this was great.
Thanks for inviting me.
Mike Harrison (51:28):
Absolutely.
After you hear the outro music, youdon't need to stay on, just so you know.
But yeah, I'd like to thank all ofour guests, Stephen and Kaleigh for
joining us as new guests, and ofcourse, Jeff as a recurring guest, and
appreciate everybody's time and passion.
As you all say, this outdoorhospitality industry is amazing.
And, it's just so interestingand fun and able to connect
(51:48):
with the guests in the outdoors.
We've all got great opportunities andit's an amazing thing to be a part of.
With that, I wish everybodyhave a great July 4th coming up.
And
Jeff Hoffman (51:58):
Kaleigh, Stephen, very nice meeting you.
It was great to hear your story.
Nice to meet you guys.
Mike Harrison (52:04):
We'll catch everybody on the other side.
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