Nevermind (Nirvana)

Episode Transcript
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Dave (00:00):
Hello and welcome to McCartney and Goal.
This is the podcast thatdebates a great album of popular
music using a sporting knockoutformat.
I'm David Hughes and I'm joinedby my fellow judges Brett.

Brett (00:13):
Hello, hello.

Dave (00:14):
And Steve Sumner, episode 50.
Yes.

Brett (00:19):
How did we get here?
How?

Steve (00:21):
I've no idea how this happened.
I never dreamed such a thingwas possible in christian.
Oh my gosh unbelievable.

Brett (00:28):
It's episode 50 dave it is how do you feel having
marshaled 50 of these?
uh the long silence beforeanswering says a lot listeners
but we've saved up a classictonight, haven't we for our 50th
birthday.
What we have per.
We have purposely saved this up.
We've talked about it for years, doing this album um, and we've
saved it.

Steve (00:48):
We wanted the words.
Are we doing the words?

Brett (00:50):
it's exactly that.
Steve the words all the combineharvesters all the combine,
yeah, that we were but wedecided actually we're going to
do nevermind by nirvana, becauseit's you know, it's pretty good
in it, dave yep, it is uh.

Dave (01:03):
So tonight we're giving our uninformed, biased and
unruly views on nevermind bynirvana.
And now the puns bit go for it.

Brett (01:13):
Go on episode 50.
Is this the last time you'regonna do the puns?
Are you?
Are you retiring the puns afterthis?

Dave (01:17):
no, no, we've, we've.
Uh, I don't like the puns, butwe um, don't tell the listeners
that they imagine that you lovethem the puns have been an
essential part of all 50episodes a whole lot of pun yeah
, so far um so.
Brett, have you been on a planerecently?

Brett (01:32):
I have dave because I'm in.
I'm in argentina, south america, oh nice that's good, that's a
pun, but also you personalizedit.

Dave (01:39):
I really appreciate that and on our zoom screen I can see
the window behind you.
You're, you're flexing that.
Uh, you're recording this inbright sunshine yeah, that is a
flex yeah, I am in summertime.

Steve (01:53):
Yeah, sorry about that yeah, I don't want to go
unnoticed, no it doesn't?

Brett (01:57):
you've got it.
When you basically in britishwindsor, it is horribly long and
very gray and dark and cold,and if you can escape it, you
should, but also you should alsonever, ever, ever brag about it
, because people will hate youso let's try and downplay it and
it's January here in the UK atthe moment so.

Dave (02:16):
Steve, would you be?
In bloom if it wasn't stillwinter in the UK.
Well, as you can see, I'vegrown a beard.

Steve (02:23):
So I am in bloom beautiful.
I am in bloom beautiful, I amblooming just for this episode
nice any more puns is that it?
No no, no, that's it, that's itoh okay, well, that's good.

Brett (02:34):
Two's good, two's good.
We'll take two, sure, yeah, I'mjust glad you didn't try and
squeeze in territorial pissingsbecause that could have gone
anywhere.
To be fair, he he came in realhot with on a plane.
That was very good.
I think he wrote that and wentfuck it.
I'm done for the day, done thatI'm not gonna top that.
I'm gonna go and have my lunchabsolutely, it is um.

Dave (02:54):
This is actually the second album in our trilogy
series of albums that werereleased on the 24th of sept
1991.
The first part Was episode 47.
Where we did Blood Sugar SexMagic by the Chili Peppers.
Part two is Nevermind byNirvana, which is this episode
50.

Brett (03:14):
Nice, I mean that's a pisser for the Red Hot Chili
Peppers.
That's a great, great album andit's still not the best album
released that day.

Dave (03:21):
Let's be honest no well, and part three will be.

Brett (03:27):
What do you think it will be?
Our part three?
What's?
What's the choice I'll give you.
What else was released wasstupid enough to release an
album that day, since you askedbrian adams waking up the
neighbors will never ever bethat over mine, yours and
steve's dead bodies.

Dave (03:38):
You two first van morrison hymns to the silence.
I've not heard it.

Brett (03:46):
I mean, it's what 90s era Van Morrison?
Is that his best era?

Dave (03:50):
well, 24th of September 1991, van Morrison.

Brett (03:53):
Well, specifically, I mean, you're probably the
biggest Van Morrison fan.
Is that fair to say out ofthree of us?
Yes so is that one of hisfinest of his oeuvre?
Are we, are we likely to dothat?
We've already done one Astral.

Dave (04:05):
Weeks, which is amazing.
We have, yeah, we've done thebest of Van Morrison, which was
Astral Weeks, although there aresome other fine Van Morrison
albums.

Brett (04:13):
Okay, so we'd be crowbarring that one in,
wouldn't we?
So it's not.

Dave (04:17):
Not that one.
Okay, how about Tribe CalledQuest Low End Theory?

Steve (04:21):
Oh God, quest low end theory oh god you.
Any excuse to name drop thatalbum.
We're never gonna do that album.

Brett (04:28):
Move on, you're obsessed okay, it's not gonna happen.
He's gone.
Tribal on you our third part.

Dave (04:34):
Uh will be none of those.
Uh, it's actually going to bescreamadelica by primal scream
that we might get around to,wasn't?

Steve (04:41):
there wasn't the pixies this year, wasn't the pixies
like a day before, a day after,or something?

Dave (04:46):
it was on that day.

Steve (04:47):
Yeah, you're right which is a good connection, because
obviously there's a huge amountof Pixies influence on this
album which we will get to.

Dave (04:55):
Trump LeMond was on 24th September 1991, as well by the
Pixies and the Pixies is big wecould do that.

Brett (05:05):
That's kind of more of a wheelhouse.
They're a bit cool, aren't they?
They're a bit cool.
It gives us a bit of cred.

Steve (05:11):
We've done the Pixies, haven't we?
And it was our least listenedto episode ever, so let's not do
that again Do little literally.

Brett (05:17):
Do little listening, yeah .

Dave (05:20):
Yes, so 1991,.
What were you into?
What were you listening to?
Brian Adams obviously.

Brett (05:29):
Yeah, well, I was 15 at the time.
So just discovering music, justdiscovering it, and that's the
interesting thing about thisalbum.
This album comes out and you'relike, wow, this is really good.
But that's what you expect.
It's just an album that's comeout literally when you're
getting into music.
It just happens to be one ofthe greatest albums of all time.
But you kind of it skews yourexpectations.
You think are all albums goingto be like this?
So you probably don'tappreciate it at the time.

(05:51):
As time goes on, you kind ofget into it, but it's incredible
.
Yeah, so at the time I would,I've been listening to, I'd have
just come off.
My uh had a u2 phase, a queenphase, then, bizarrely, a t-rex
phase.
It was in an advert, um, and soit's just coming off of all of
that.
And then, yeah, then gettinginto, like, actually getting
into the wider scope of music,but this would be one of the

(06:12):
first I've got going to.
So, yeah, what were youlistening to, steve?

Steve (06:16):
I think I was segwaying from straight up whatever was in
the charts to beatles hendrixclapton well, you got into the
Beatles earlier than me.

Brett (06:26):
Nice, you got into the 60s earlier yeah, well, not the
60s.

Steve (06:30):
No, I got into the 60s a bit, but you were always much
more of a big 60s guy than I was.
But yeah, the Beatles was verymuch the gateway drug into
everything else.

Brett (06:40):
That wasn't just what was in the chart well, that's
interesting because I wentthrough bands like Nirirvana, um
, and then, and latterly at thesame time, really punk as well,
but yeah, so, okay, okay, it'sbeen this big kind of burst
between 16 and 18, which is whatis the fascinating thing about
this time you, you basicallybetween 16 and 18 is really when

(07:00):
you get into music.
And just at that point, for us,this album was released,
completely skewering ourexpectations of what you can
expect from yeah regularlyreleased new bands.
What were you listening to?
Hughes?
A lot of cure, I think.
Bit of goth, weren't you brianadams?
Brian adams brian adams.

Dave (07:17):
I mean we we're joking about it, but waking up, the
neighbors sold a gazillion,didn't it?
It was another huge sellingalbum shame on you.

Brett (07:25):
The 90s shame on you.

Dave (07:26):
There was a really mixed bag of rock around at the time
wasn't there, because, as wellas never mind, there was guns
and roses.
Yeah, the uh red and the uhblue use your illusion.

Brett (07:39):
No, that's the beatles.
For fuck's sake.
You should know a bit moreabout music than that use your
illusion.

Dave (07:44):
One and two the red and the blue albums well, the
difference between them was thatone had a red cover and one say
what you see?

Steve (07:52):
yeah, use your illusion one and two.
Yeah, use your illusion one andtwo, yeah.

Dave (07:57):
And so that was around at the same time.
That was in the charts, reallyhigh up the charts at the same
time.
Um, and then you had like remwere big at the time when
they're out of time.

Brett (08:06):
Yeah, shiny happy people, which was released in 91 as
well.
I mean, 91 was an insane yearfor album releases.

Dave (08:13):
It was just really and then in the uk we had a lot of
uh, indie uk indie carter, theunstoppable sex machine, the
wonder stuff um stone, roses,stone roses carter, the
unstoppable sex machine.

Steve (08:26):
There's a reference, wow yeah, that's what.

Brett (08:29):
I was into them a lot of the time, so this was like kind
of pulling me out of that, Isuppose.
But yeah, that's what happenswhen you're 16.

Steve (08:35):
Well, this album pulled a lot of people out of a lot of
things, not least in america,where it killed or is is
generally held to have killed anentire genre.
But we can't talk about thatgenre because Dave, as evidenced
in previous episodes, doesn'tunderstand it.
You're talking of hair metal, Iam talking about hair metal,
which Dave has singularly failedto grasp in any concept.

(08:58):
I can't remember who it was heaccused of being hair metal but
fucking hell.

Brett (09:01):
He's just referred to the worst thing that ever happened.
He's just referred to.

Steve (09:06):
Usual Ill illusion as the red and the blue album.
I mean, yeah, his metalknowledge is atrocious.
Yeah atrocious jeepers crepersyeah unbelievable all you need
to know, dave, is that peoplestopped backcombing their hair
and putting lipstick on, despitethe fact they were heterosexual
men, and started wearing plaidshirts and growing stubble.
That's Just run with that nomore backcombed hair.

Dave (09:28):
Unless, like me, you were into the Cure, in which case you
started backcombing your hairand putting lipstick on about
this time.
Yes, that's a goth discussion.

Steve (09:36):
I'm just talking about the hair metalers, that's fine.
Ah, ok, I never understood thatIf you were listening to
Warrant and Poison.
You stopped when this happened.

Dave (09:46):
I definitely wasn't listening to them.
Segwaying.
A question that we've debatedbefore is how easy is it to tell
whether a record is going to bea classic before it has had
contact with the public?
And I raise that because Geffen, who were the record company,

(10:08):
sent out 46,000 copies toAmerican record stores.
Yeah.

Brett (10:13):
And they sent 35,000 copies to the UK, but only
because Bleach had beenrelatively successful and they
were darlings of the NME and theBritish music press, which a
lot of bands used Britain tobreak, especially art rock.
So that initial pressing ofwhat?
And the British Music Press,which a lot of bands used
Britain to break especially ArtRock.

Dave (10:25):
So is that initial pressing of what like just under
100,000 records?

Steve (10:30):
Yeah.

Dave (10:31):
Geffen didn't have the highest hopes for this album.

Brett (10:34):
Yeah they hoped in the best wildest dreams it would do
about 250,000.
I thought, ah, could we do that?
That'd be amazing.
Um, and yeah, I mean, it's justyet another example of not
being able to predict, or justhow hard it is to predict, even
though you can.
It is an art, it is not ascience.
You know you, you can't predictit.

Steve (10:53):
Um, and humans are terrible at predicting anything,
let alone something as finiteas this but sometimes it's very
little to do with what's good,bad or indifferent, it's about
the times.
You know, it's like's like theway I always come back to, the
way that Steve Martin and EddieMurphy were funny.
They were funny, they werefunny, and then the 80s ended
and they weren't funny and theywere saying the same things and
making the same jokes.
It was just the times hadchanged.

(11:14):
Something had shifted in theinternational consciousness that
meant that those jokes weren'tlanding in the same way.
You know something about thevibe had changed and the films
changed, everything changed.

Brett (11:25):
And you know, nirvana, there's a lot of you mean Father
of the Bride 2 isn't one ofyour favourite films of all time
, it's everyone's favourite film.

Steve (11:33):
But I mean, obviously there were going to be, like you
know, anomalies along the way,but in general it was a decline.
The Nutty Professor isn't topfive for you.

Dave (11:48):
It's not inching out, godfather, I mean, it's strong.
It's a strong entry.
If you were trying to describethe impact of this album to
generation z, how would youdescribe the impact of gen z?

Brett (11:57):
yeah, um, well, it's so interesting.
It's so hard to to describe animpact of an album, because I
was thinking today, like thatperiod between 16 and 18 is
where we would have gestated alot of music and we'd have had
to literally like, yeah, I gotinto nirvana, but at the same
time it was the beatles were newto me, they were like a new
band to me.
The cure uh, stacks records wasnew to me.

(12:19):
All of it was new.
But the fortunate thing for uswas we had to physically acquire
copies of the albums to listento them.
Nowadays, you could literallydecide to, you know, define
yourself as getting into music.
You could finish school in thesummer and by the end of that
summer holiday you could havelistened to everything,
everything.
And that is why music hasshifted from the album, which is

(12:41):
a long-form thing, to kind ofto putting songs onto playlists
and why I think you were tellingme, dave, your, your daughters,
now just listen to songs.
They don't really listen toalbums or don't even sometimes
know who the artist is, theyjust know the song.
So, no, bohemian rhapsody is agreat song, but they won't know
really that much about queen I.

Steve (12:58):
I get that a lot with students.
It's like it's such a I thinkwe talked about this a little
bit before.
It's like I'll ask them whatthey're listening to and it's
like they were listening to somerandom.
It'll be like highway to helland I'm like, oh wow, you're
into acdc.
And they're like, who acdc?
And I'm like, okay, so you'vekind of blown me away by
listening to something I wasn'texpecting you to.
But then there's this totaldisconnect between the thing
you're listening to and youhaving any further knowledge of

(13:22):
it.
It's really odd, it's a verydifferent way of consuming music
we're totally different from us.

Brett (13:29):
Like we, we would have to invest literally, physically,
and usually financially, in thealbum, and once you've done that
, you've made an investment.
You want to put your time you'regonna listen to the damn thing
we've actually swung all the wayback from the original thing in
in the 60s was was not thealbum, it was the singles and
the live tour.
That's how artists made money.
Then from mid-60s onwards itswung all the way back to the

(13:50):
album being thing, not thisjustice thing you just hang your
credibility on.
And now it's swung back.
People release an album not forthe money, for the.
It's for the cred, for the, forthe excuse to do a tour, to
release some singles.
It's mad.

Steve (14:01):
It's got, it has some, but yeah, it's very different,
very different.
But to answer your initialquestion about its impact, dave,
I'd say I mean I just remembergoing, you know, going to
parties at that point when youwere very, very first going to
parties and it was like you know, and I remember, you know
alcohol for the first time andsort of darkness.
You know, hanging out withpeople at someone's house in the

(14:24):
dark and people smokingcigarettes and all this stuff.
The only musical thing that Irecall is this album In my head.
If I close my eyes and imaginethat I'm at one of those parties
, all they are playing isNevermind At some point.

(14:45):
That's what happened and Idon't remember anything else
apart from okay, go on.

Dave (14:51):
What were you going to say ?
Because there's one other thatI remember from that period, one
other record that was put on,say the wonder stuff, for fuck's
sake.

Brett (14:58):
No, go on what was it.

Dave (14:59):
I wish it was.
I was gonna say rage againstthe machine is the other one I
remember.

Steve (15:03):
Yes, yes, it's, I listened to that a lot, but I
didn't hear it at parties.
At parties, it was never mind,never mind or never mind.
That's what it was.
It was just endlessly,endlessly played, and and so I
associate it very, very heavilywith a time and a feeling and
and just parties, house partiesum, because it was suddenly, it
was everywhere.

Dave (15:22):
Yeah, no, that's a good way to connect it to the impact
that it had, because that'swhere, like you say, that's
where we heard it.
You put on an album at a houseparty and it was played all the
way through, and it was this one.

Brett (15:35):
That's what you would do.
I mean, it just does not happennow, but I'm sure people of
course people still listen toalbums.
We have people who you knowlisten to albums.
We have people who you knowlisten to this podcast, who are
gen z and have tweeted us.
So, um, you know, shout out tojames from huddersfield, but I
mean, basically he has a tweet.
I said, am I your only gen zlisten?
I said I don't know, james, Ihope you're not, but you might

(15:55):
just be, because I just don'tknow how old does that make?
Him.

Dave (16:00):
I don't know dave's on the on the job under 35 gen z would
what very end of the 90s tointo the 2000s?
The first 10, 15 years of the2000s maybe?

Brett (16:12):
So listen, tweet us if you do, if you are a Gen Z and
listen to the podcast and youlisten to albums in general,
because yeah, well, and if youlike this one, yeah, which I?
Imagine they will do If you're.

Dave (16:23):
Gen Z and you like this album, if you've connected with
this album, yeah, I'm sure theyhave.

Brett (16:28):
I mean, it's just got so much cut through, hasn't it?
It's incredible what sustain itmust have had over the years.
I mean, this is the easiest oneto listen to because it's all
bangers, it's all thriller, nofiller.

Dave (16:40):
Well, let's get into that.
Then let's start listening tothese, that's my claim the first
two songs I'm going to play youthe opening round, are in bloom
versus poly guitar solo.

(17:16):
Send the kids for food.

Nirvana (17:24):
When the change is moot , stinks here again Rip the dark
from the ground.
Hey, the one who likes All ourpretty songs.

(17:58):
We'll be right back.
I think I should get off herfirst.
I think she wants some water Toput out the blowtorch.
Here's a knee, have a seat.
Let me clip Dirty wings.

(18:21):
Let me take a ride, cutyourself.
Want.
Want some help?
Please myself.
Got some rope.
Haven't told promise youhaven't true.
Let me take a ride, cutyourself.
Want some help, man, pleasemyself.

Brett (18:53):
In Bloom, track two on the album, and Polly is track
six, side A Gen Z listeners.
So that means that's where youhad to get up and turn it over
so they put kind of two balladyones at the end of end of both
sides, like so they say beef, soI mean, ah, they're both.
I'm gonna be boring you'regonna have to they're both great

(19:14):
.
Yeah, they're both verydifferent.
Yeah, they are.
But in bloom's this massiverocker with just this huge drum
sound and on it it just smashesin.
I mean, if if you haven't beenwoken up out of your senses from
the first track on this album,then In Bloom has just totally
confirmed you're listening tosomething of spectacular genius.
It's incredible, I mean.
I love In Bloom.
Polly's a really interestingtrack as well.

Dave (19:37):
But, yeah, the drum sound on In Bloom Well.

Nirvana (19:40):
I go.
What are?

Dave (19:40):
you going to vote for.

Brett (19:41):
Well, let's go straight to the vote then.
Yeah, I mean I'm going to votefor In Bloom because it's just a
massive tune.
I mean it was a single, wasn'tit?
It was the second single orthird single of the album.
It's got that cool video wherethey're kind of dressed up as if
they're in the 1960s.
They're in kind of jackets andties and they've got their hair
slicked down.

Dave (19:59):
Yeah, it's brilliant, I love it In Bloom, brett, you're
going for In Bloom, steve.
How about you?

Brett (20:06):
Yes, I'm going for In Bloom as well.
Oh, there's a tension gone.

Dave (20:09):
Lovely Dave.
What are you going for?
Well, actually I'm going for InBloom as well, so it's a 3-0.

Steve (20:16):
But Polly's got all let's talk about.

Dave (20:18):
Polly, then I guess, yeah, let's talk.
I know that there's a very darkbackground story which one of
you can tell.
I know that this is playing acharacter.
I know that Kurt is playing acharacter singing as a character
when he does this song that'sunusual for you, dave yeah, I
recognize that in this song,because you can't help, can you?
It's so dark.
But I really struggle to listento it, knowing that it's a true

(20:42):
story.

Brett (20:44):
I didn't know that until doing the research for this
album, what it was based on.
I just thought it was.
You know, his lyrics are quiteopaque and we can get into that
later and I know steve willprobably have some, I will.

Steve (20:54):
But I just want to say that actually these two, I would
say, are the two least opaquelyrics, lyrical songs, on the
whole album.
These two are pretty much theonly two that have something
specific to say.
Everything else is very, verybroken images and just sort of

(21:18):
ideas that sound interesting,rather than this is what this
song is about.

Brett (21:24):
A coherent idea and you can really plot through what
it's about from start to end andit stands up to kind of rigour.
Well, I mean to be fair to KurtCobain, he probably didn't
realise that you know this albumwas going to be so effing huge
and didn't realise he needed toput so much effort into making
everything tie up contextuallywith his lyrics.

Dave (21:43):
But yeah, what is the?

Brett (21:44):
story of Polly.
The story of Polly is based ona newspaper article that he read
in which a girl was abductedand raped by, you know,
obviously a complete psychopath,and that she managed to get
away.
I think she had to kind ofpretend to like him in a way to

(22:05):
let his guard down, and shemanaged to escape with her life.
So it was based on the articlethat he read and he definitely
defined himself as a feministand was obviously horrified by
the article, and I think she wasabducted after a gig actually.
So it would have hit home evenmore to him.
But the weird thing about it ishe takes the perspective of the

(22:28):
assailant in this song, so thesong is from his perspective.

Steve (22:33):
Steve, it's interesting that the acoustic sounds on this
album are really interestingbecause he quite consciously and
we'll get to the overproductionof this album later, but he
quite consciously chose slightlyshitty little guitar and you,
you know, obviously, butch vig,the producer, who we'll get to
later, has still managed to makeit sound smooth as fuck.

Brett (22:54):
Um, but it is a, you can hear, it's a cheap, nasty
acoustic guitar which suits thecontent of the song you know, it
wouldn't if it was a betterguitar, one would work yeah, I
think this might have been ohgod, I would have to check this
day but I think this was takenfrom the original recordings

(23:14):
they did before they actuallywent in proper to do the album
and it might have the originaldrummer on it, chad channing,
rather than dave grow.
It might be his only appearanceon the album which is a a great
segue.

Dave (23:25):
No, my only, just before we talk about that.
My only problem with this isthat it pushes my boundaries of
comfort, in that I can't watchhorror films and I would
struggle with a book that wastoo graphic, and I think there's
nothing wrong with?
His choosing this as a subjectmatter and the way that he does

(23:48):
it explores it, but it justmakes my skin crawl past the
point, which is comfortable.

Brett (23:56):
Well, I've listened to it for years, dave, and not
realised what it was about.
And it was like you know, evenyou know it's an easier song to
sing as well on the acousticside.
But, yeah, knowing what it'sabout, you know, even you know
it's an easier song to sing aswell on the acoustic side.
But, yeah, knowing what it'sabout, I mean because the lyrics
are really, again, they'repretty opaque, not so much for
his standards, but they're still.
You know, you wouldn't know.

(24:16):
Just if he gave you that on apiece of paper would you know
what it was about.
If you read the lyrics, well,when you read the story, you
know, yeah, once you know thestory, but just from literally
reading the lyrics, you wouldn'tnecessarily have a clear idea
of the story.
Um, so, yeah, but once I've nowI've realized that just in the
last couple week, a couple ofweeks doing it, it's like, wow,
it does change it a lot.

(24:37):
I completely reassessed thesong, knowing it's a subject,
where it is, it's, it's very,it's very bruising, and you know
, yeah, it's um, it does changeit.
I get that, so I understand.

Dave (24:46):
I understand both sides so you mentioned dave grohl.
So right before this album wasrecorded, uh, dave grohl joined
the band and replaced pete beston drums.

Steve (24:57):
He replaced the sixth piece, pete, best in a row, to
be honest with you yet, yes,this poor drummer that that ends
up being.
They end up being both spinaltap and the beatles, because a
you get the beatles peak.
Best situation with you know Iwas.
I was on the drum seat and thenI left and then they became
massive.

Dave (25:18):
But it's equally spinal tap because it was literally the
sixth guy yeah, it's like whatthe hell's going on here so that
this drummer couldn't that wasplaying on polly is um.
His name is chad channing and Ithink there's just a lone
symbol crash at the end of theverses and that's.
That's um, as you say brett,taken from an earlier uh session
and that's his only appearance,chad channing's only appearance

(25:42):
on Nevermind, and I think he'suncredited.

Steve (25:44):
But what a cymbal crash, though.
That is the cymbal crash to endall cymbal crashes.

Brett (25:50):
That's been sampled so many times.

Steve (25:54):
It's almost no better cymbal crash.
I can think of.

Dave (25:58):
So when you hear that, that is Chad Channing, but
that's his only appearance onNevermind, he was replaced by
Dave Grohl somebody called DaveGrohl call up Dave Grohl.

Brett (26:09):
Call up the beast.
Dave Grohl was in a band calledScream and someone I think in
the Melvins the Melvins are abig band in Seattle the punk
scene that were highlyinfluential on Kurt Cobain and
Chris Novelessic.
How do I pronounce that?
Is that right?
Nova Selich or Nova Selich?
I've heard both on Kurt Cobainand Chris Novoselic how do I?
Pronounce it is that right?
Novoselic, novoselic orNovoselic.

Steve (26:28):
I've heard both.

Brett (26:28):
I've been worrying about that all day, how to pronounce
it and I fell at the first.
I don't know Novoselic, sothey're a big band and I think
their bassist recommended DaveGrohl.
So they're like, okay, yeah,we've had loads of drum, but
it's amazing so many bands likethat happens, like the Beatles.
They don't become the Beatlesuntil Ringo Starr sits in that
seat.
The Clash don't well, it'sslightly more arguable don't

(26:50):
really become the Clash untilTopper Hiddens sits in the seat.
You know, it's so important.
The right drummer is soimportant, and it doesn't mean
the best drummer, it doesn'tmean the jazziest drummer, it
just our people too, ourdrummers, our people too yeah, I
know some kids to our rest willdisagree with that, but yes, so
the next, the next round is ona plane versus lounge act.

Nirvana (27:15):
I'm on a plane, you know it's wrong.
What should I do?
I'm on a plane, I can'tcomplain.

(27:54):
I'm on a plane.

Dave (28:45):
Soon I'm coming to security.

Brett (28:45):
I can't let you slow me, we'll be right back.
You see, makes me feel now well, lounge act is is um.

Steve (28:48):
it's according to steve that's a secret track that's
never been on, nevermind before.
Why is that, do you want totell us?
Well, because I admitted before.
Okay, so this has only happenedonce before on the podcast, and
not as extremely as this.
When we were doing Led Zeppelin4, I realised that I had never
listened to Four Sticks all theway through because clearly I'd
always got to the introductionand decided I hadn't didn't like
it and must have skipped it.

(29:08):
So when I had to listen to thewhole thing of the podcast, I
was like bloody hell, I've neverheard this.
Even worse, with lounge act.

Brett (29:15):
I am pretty sure I've never heard this song in my
whole life which must have thatrare japanese import that didn't
have lounge act on it, you wereat parties, steve, they played
this all the time I know theydid.
He was always he was always,but by this point he'd already
started hooking up with someone,so he was off yeah, I was

(29:35):
usually off with the girl by now.

Steve (29:36):
You heard the songs that came up.

Dave (29:37):
So this was lounge acts, track nine.
But you heard on a plane whichwas track 11, so that came
afterwards on a plane, track 11,something in the way dave, they
didn't play the whole album itwas a quick worker when he
hooked up with the girl that's

Brett (29:52):
enough now, steve.
So he's back for.
He's back for stay away.

Steve (29:54):
Ironically, I think they just made a compilation tape and
left it off right, fair dues.

Brett (30:03):
So anyway, you're fresh to lounge acts.
That's interesting because thisis another thing to talk about.
This, this album is the wholealbum has um, danger of um,
wonderwall syndrome, trademarkmccartney and gold podcast, um,
in which we this you define,that song is so overplayed that
it loses all kind of bearingsand impact.

(30:24):
But I don't think it does.
But I think you know it's just,it's an interesting point you
could make because it's soplayed, we're so aware of it,
we're so aware of every songingrained in us.

Steve (30:32):
But yeah, I mean so.
Lounge Act is interesting foryou, steve, because it comes at
you fresh, you are fresh, so howdo you feel?

Dave (30:39):
Giovanna yeah, I'm released, isn't it?
How did you find?

Steve (30:43):
it, steve.
Every time I listened to it, Iwent this is good, this is good.
And then I couldn't retain asecond of it.
Even now, I cannot retain asingle thing about it, not a
thing.
It will not stick in my mind.
Whatever I do, I cannot get itto stay, and I don't know why

(31:04):
it's not a bad track.
Every time this is good.
Nothing, nothing about it hasstayed in my mind, not a thing
okay, yeah, I mean I do like it.

Brett (31:11):
It's got a.
He's got on this song only atight, a tiny like country twang
to it.
It's slightly country tighter,like three percent, but it's
just that more than any othersong.
And then it goes up a gear intohis scream like this incredible
vocal range he does go up anoctave, which is cool that is
true.

Steve (31:30):
I love that.
It's a classic McCartney thingand there's only two ways you
can go up an octave.
It is a trope in a way it'svery overdone, but it's very
effective if you can sing verseone in your head voice like this
, and then go in your head,voice like this and go, you know
, up to you can go up an octaveand do exactly the same tune,

(31:54):
but an octave up for verse twoor whatever it's.
It's good, but so the only twoways to do it are either be paul
mccartney, which means thatyou've got such an incredible
range, certainly in the 70s,when his range was at its
absolute best, um, when you knowyou can do it in most keys or
you have to pick a key where youknow that the limits of your

(32:15):
voice are within that key um.
So I don't know which is trueof of kurt cabane, but yes, he
does very effectively go up anoctave in this song.

Brett (32:24):
But it's not just like.
I did manage to remember that Ithink he's an amazing, I think
he's got an amazing voice.
I mean we'll get into youropinions on that and it's this
and it's largely one of the mainreasons there are a lot,
obviously because they're anincredibly popular band, but
it's one of the main reasons whythey've sustained their
popularity for as long as theyhave.
But when he goes up that gear,it's not just like hitting it at

(32:48):
an octave higher, which is hardto do.
It is actually very hard tosing.
You know an octave higherbecause you're right steve,
because sometimes the notes willlead you out of your range if
you're written in that way.
But the intensity when she singsit halfway through is
incredible.
So it goes from like a kind ofslight country twang, which is
really nice, to that like it'sjust absolute metal.
Holler, like this is heavymetal, like screamer, it's

(33:10):
brilliant.
And to have both.
It's not like he's doing animpression of a country singer
or that twang, it's just.
It's a really nice vocal heputs on at the start of the song
.
It's got an incredible tone.
But it's against.

Dave (33:22):
Well, it's against on a plane and I suspect that Thank
you.

Brett (33:26):
I had forgotten, I suspect that both of you are.

Dave (33:31):
Well, I'll ask you what are you voting for?
Well, I know what he's votingfor.

Steve (33:35):
Yeah, I think it's pretty clear what I'm voting for.
I mean I can't vote for the oneI can't remember, can I?
I'm voting for the one that Iliterally retain nothing about.
I'm voting for the one that Iliterally return nothing about
that makes all the sense yeah,on a plane it is Of course 3-0.

Dave (33:49):
On a plane goes through.

Steve (33:50):
Yeah, lovely.

Dave (33:51):
Right, so on to the next pairing which I'm going to play
you, which is Stay Away versusBreed, Outro Music.
Take a smile.

Nirvana (34:08):
About your shit, about your style, about your life,
about your life.

(34:29):
I can't, I can't, I can't, Ican't, I can't Get a hold of you
.
Oh my, oh my, oh my, oh my, ohmy.
Don't have a mind, you're way,way, way way way, way, way out

(35:09):
of your home.

Brett (35:10):
We'll be right back.
Wow, both incredible songs.
I mean Breathe the production,the amazing sound on the drums
is just excellent.
And then the rhythm section,that fuzz bass, it's just
incredible.
It's just so sub-bass AgainstStay Away, which is an absolute
belter as well.
I mean that's kind of notNirvana by numbers, but it's

(35:31):
almost like they can just churnout another absolute banger and
just put it on.
I think every song on thisalbum is fantastic.
As I said, for me there's nofiller here at all.
It's why it's one of the mostit's consistently in greatest
albums of all time top tens,because it's just, it's just so
damn deep and consistent.
Um, but it's extraordinary.

(35:52):
If any of these songs turned upon a playlist, they'd probably
actually pop out more than theydo within the structure of this
album because they're up againstsuch stiff competition from
each I was going to make thatpoint.

Dave (36:02):
I agree with you totally, brett, that if many other bands
had written stay away, then itwould be the one of the standout
tracks on standout songs ontheir album and it might even be
the lead single.
But instead on this album it'sburied down at track 10.
Just because of the quantityand the quality of yeah, of the
songs just on this album yeah,and it and, great though it is,

(36:25):
it is no Breed which isphenomenal, absolutely
phenomenal.

Brett (36:30):
I mean, I'm voting for Breed.

Steve (36:32):
I could flip.
I could flip a coin on thesetwo, to be honest.
They are both.

Brett (36:37):
In a good way or a not that interested way.

Steve (36:40):
No, no, no in a good way, In a good way.

Dave (36:43):
They're both good I think I'm very clear on this, so shall
I go.

Brett (36:48):
Because I'm going to go the other way.
I'm going to go Stay Away, nice, I can't object.

Dave (36:53):
And then I'll leave you, Steve to flip a coin.
To Steve, Flip that coin.

Steve (36:58):
No, I think this is a very, very successful album, but
a very big punk failure, and Ithink that uh breed comes closer
to the spirit of the punk albumthat could have been in there.
Um, so, so I'm gonna go breed,I think breed goes through two,
one way has, has, has doneexactly that what what bread?
Wow okay oh, stay away.

(37:20):
Has done exactly that stayed,he has.
He's stayed away, stayed away.
Yeah, sorry, a bit opaque.

Brett (37:26):
I need to hold up a little sign saying this is a
joke.
Next time, don't I?

Dave (37:30):
The next pairing is Drain you against Territorial Pissings
which are back to back on thealbum.
Territorial Pissings is trackseven and Drain you is track 8.
When I'm there, gotta find away Better way.

Nirvana (38:05):
Better way.
Never turn away, I don't carewhat you think, unless it is
about me.
It is now my duty To completelydrain you.
I travel through to blend up inyour affection.

(38:31):
It's only me and you Passingback and forth In a
heart-passing kiss, from out ofyour sight, in our passionate
cheers.
From now on, I'll be all thetime.

Steve (38:49):
Like you, easy, easy.
Go on, steve.
I mean I love Draney, butTerritorial Pistons is probably
my favourite thing on the record.

Brett (38:59):
Well done, well done.
Well done.
Well done.

Steve (39:03):
Territorial Pistons is amazing.

Brett (39:05):
Oh, it's fucking unbelievable.
I love, I love, love, love it,I love.
Drain you.
It's an amazing pop song, umwritten about his ex-girlfriend,
toby vale, who was in bikini,kills um a big influence on him.
I think he was really smittenand then she broke up with him.
So a lot of the songs on thisalbum are kind of heartbreak
songs about her I think uh landjacked was as well about her

(39:26):
actually.
Yeah, I think it was.
Yeah, I think.
Actually Side B, the majorityof them are about her in some
way or another.
That's what I've read, butTerritorial Pissings.
That's what I'm going to say,dave.

Dave (39:42):
I'll talk to you more about it in the next round.
Well, I would have voted forDrain you.

Brett (39:48):
Yeah, I mean, it's a brilliant song I mean people
will now be screaming at theiraudio device.

Steve (39:55):
Also, drain, you is the most Nirvana chord progression
ever.
It's so Nirvana, that chordprogression, I love it.
It's great.
Drain, you's great, butTerritorial Pissing's oh,
nirvana, that chord progression,I love it.
It's great.
Dwayne's great, but territorialpissing's oh man.
We'll talk about that later.
Yes, baby.

Brett (40:07):
Yeah, I've got here an old Nirvana songbook and you're
right, the chords are A, c-sharp, major, f-sharp, major, b-5, a.
I mean that is, which makes nosense at all.

Steve (40:25):
I was watching that documentary where they talked to
his guitar teacher andbasically the guitar, the guitar
teacher sort of says, look, hecame to me for some guitar
lessons and he clearly he got tothat point where he knew you
know how to finger, like thebasic major and the basic minor
and the basic power chords andjust at the point when he would
have learned, like some musictheory.
He's like, oh, screw this, andhe bowed out.
So so his guitar teacher's like, oh, screw this and he bowed
out.
So so his guitar teacher'sgoing yeah, I think the reason

(40:48):
he succeeded is because histotal lack of music theory meant
that he wasn't.
Those chords he put togetherjust made no sense at all none
at all and that that's such athing in in in the history of
rock music where if you know toomuch music theory, uh, unless
you're in a prog band where it'skind of essential that it can
just get in your way you need toknow just the right amount and

(41:13):
then be working just beyond yourability.
So I think if he'd stayed forlesson seven, quit after lesson
six, we'd have a different album.
Because he'd be like C D.
A minor.
G C, d A minor.
Oh, it's got a lovely tune.

Brett (41:28):
I can't put another major chord, I can't put four major
chords and it must have a minor,there must be the relative
minor.

Steve (41:32):
Ideally, that's the four.
Chord progression, isn't it?
And a lot of music.

Brett (41:35):
Now is the four chord progression, which is the
relative minor, and the threemajors.
Of course, we all know that,don't we?

Steve (41:40):
gang.
We all know that don't we game.

Brett (41:41):
Yeah, we all know, absolutely we all know that they
all four corporations um, thethe one, the one, the four, the
five so territorial pissingsgoes through.

Dave (41:50):
Oh, it goes through, it goes through with a salute and
I'll see you in the quarters.

Brett (41:55):
Yes, it does, yeah steve, yeah, yeah, for sure, I love it
.
Here's a question let me askyou a question about, uh, about
this album.

Dave (42:02):
So, after you get territorial, pissingsial
Pissings, which is a punk track,it's one of the big punk tracks
on the album you get back Hangon sorry and we'll talk about it
later, but with one of thegreatest punk moves on any song
ever, which we'll come back to.

Steve (42:21):
Okay, oh nice.

Dave (42:23):
So after you get Territor, get territorial pissings on
this album, you get straightback.
The next song is drain you.
You get straight back towell-crafted rock melodies with
lovely harmonies.
And here's my question it'salmost like nirvana wanted to go
mainstream, that they wereprepared to craft an album that
was accessible enough.

Steve (42:42):
It's every time they threw in a punk track.

Dave (42:44):
And, and I'll give you another example uh, you've got
breed, and then you go straight,which is track four, which is
punk rock, and then you gostraight to lithium, which is
like massive single,well-crafted rock like you're
the anr man you're going.

Brett (42:59):
Yeah, that's a single.
As soon as you hear it within,before it's finished, do you
think, nirvana?

Dave (43:03):
were were aware uh wanted.
Do you think nirvana wanted togo mainstream?

Brett (43:10):
yes, well, no, I don't.
Here's, there's a legend andthere's then there's a nuance.
So the legend is he hated beingfamous and and didn't want.
He just wanted to be cool,didn't want to be famous,
couldn't, didn't want to sellout is from the seattle grunge
scene, which is an incrediblescene.
I recommend the documentaryHype if you want to learn more
about that whole scene and whatan incredible hotbed of bands

(43:30):
and acts of music it was.
But the legend is no, theydidn't want to sell out.
They're a punk band, they'resuper cool.
But the nuance is they wantedto get off of sub-pop records
which they were on because theyfelt they weren't promoting the
album correctly.
So they wanted to be successful.
They wanted to be about as bigthe.
The idea is they wanted to beabout as big as the pixies.
They wanted to be reallysuccessful that's the.

Steve (43:52):
That's the thing.
It's not a binary choice.
I think you know it's like youwant to be successful enough to
make records and for people tohear your music, uh, but that
doesn't mean that younecessarily wanted to be this
world-conquering.

Brett (44:10):
MTV-strandling behemoth.

Steve (44:15):
And so I think it's fair to say Kurt Cobain wanted to be
a rock dude making albums, but Ithink what he got was so far
past that that it shocked himprofoundly.

Dave (44:21):
So what you're saying is that he overdid it.
It's.

Steve (44:29):
Butch this album's fault.

Dave (44:31):
That's what kirk cabane would say if he was here.

Steve (44:33):
It's but it's what he did say in interviews later.
He said he called it a candyass album because it was so
overproduced and, and I agreewith him, it's one of the most
overproduced albums of allfucking time.
Do you think it's overproduced?
I mean, it's producedShockingly so.
Everything is so smooth on thisalbum.

(44:54):
There are times where there areliterally times where you can
listen to a song and he's goingand it still sounds nice on the
radio Because it's been mixed insuch a smooth manner that
everything, even when they'replaying out of tune, screaming,

(45:15):
uh, flailing around, making justnoise, playing like three or
four guitar solos on this album,all of which are atonal
nonsense, one of which is justlike scraping the strings
brilliant, absolutely brilliant.
But all of it sounds radiofriendly because butch figg
produced the fucking life out ofit.
And and it's like when youlisten to that pearl jam, uh,

(45:37):
redux of 10, where they've takenall of the uh, that lovely
version that we talked about onthat episode, where they've
taken all of the reverb off it,so it sounds like a contemporary
rock album.
If they released a version ofthis with all of the
smoothiosity taken off it and itwas like a raw version, that
would be mad.
I'd love to listen to that andI'm not saying it ruins it for
me, but it's a very, veryspecific flavour and Butch Vig

(45:58):
is as responsible for it asNirvana are.

Brett (46:06):
But music has gone that way since the 90s.
As technology has improved now,like if you produce an album
now, like the vocals, prettymuch on any genre, will be
auto-tuned not auto-tuned, butthey'll be tuned by hand to fuck
.
So every tiny wobble orindiscretion or uh you know bit
where the singer goes out ofwave, is slightly out of tune,
which the human voice does itwould just be poked back into
tune.
Everything will will be trackedup triple quadruple tracked.

(46:27):
Every guitar will be tripletracked.
Everything is smooth to make assmooth a process as possible,
which is kind of great for ourears but also kind of weird that
we're removing.
We're kind of moving furtherand further away from the
humanity of music, which is kindof an ironic thing yeah I mean
it, but it it's like when hewould do the tracks he don't.

Steve (46:47):
You can hear that when, when cabane sang his vocals, you
could, you can.
All of his vocals are doubletracked and you can hear that
all of his vocals are doubletracked, which is just to say
that he sang them twice and heobjected every time and every
time butch figure, go go andsing your vocal a second time.
You'd be like, oh, it's gonnamake it too smooth and too nice
and whatever and every timebutch vigger go.

(47:08):
It's what john lennon used to doand that's how he hooked him in
, and lennon was a massive fan.

Brett (47:15):
Cabane was a massive lennon fan and they always
managed to hook him in.
Which but context they've drawnsome context on the recording
of the album and where they howthey got to this point yeah
recording this album.
So they recorded bleach for 600bucks um, I think it was 89 or
90, I can't remember um, andthat was done by jack and dino,
um seattle kind of legend, um, Ithink they even actually asked

(47:38):
someone who played guitar withthem for a while to stump up the
money for it, which he did, um,and that was that did well,
that sold about000 copies.
And then they go into thestudio again with Butch Vig to
demo out the next album andthose songs sound pretty good.
They're just demos and theyshop those demos around to get a
bigger label and they finallyget David Geffen's label

(48:01):
involved and they sign them on amajor deal and they give them
about a couple hundred grand asan advance and a lot of that
advance goes into the recordingof this album.
And they choose again Butch Vig.
Even though Geffen didn't wantButch Vig, the band did because
they were comfortable with him.
So then we get to this point,and now, at this point, they've
also got rid of their previousdrummer, chad Channing, and

(48:21):
they've got Dave Grohl involved.
So that's how you get fromtheir first album, which is
Bleach, which is kind of like acollege classic, college rock
album.
It sounds a bit gnarly and it'sgot a lot more gnarly to it.
It's got a lot more husker do alot more pixies to it than this
.
This is yeah.
Steve said this is like amassive upgrade in production.

(48:41):
It's much, much more of asmooth listen and I think some
of the songs were actually in.
In fairness, butch vick mayargue his case in saying well, I
didn't really mix, it was mixedafterwards.

Steve (48:54):
The band wanted it mixed by somebody else.

Brett (48:55):
That's very true they run out of time a bit and they got
it mixed again and he smoothedit.
I think it was the, I can'tremember.
It was the slayers mix.

Steve (49:02):
The guy did it was a guy.
Yeah, it was the guy who didslay, it wasn't.
I can't remember which Slayeralbum it was, but, yes, none of
them liked the mix, includingButch Vig.
And then they got Slayer's guyand everyone was like yes, it's
great.
So yes, he is also to blame ortake credit, depending on your
perspective.

Brett (49:17):
I would imagine, yeah, the 30 million plus album sales.
He's going to take credit forthat or at some stage someone is
going to want to and anyway.
So that's where you get to,that's where you get to butch
vick producing this album.
And, as steve said, yeah, hehad to really coerce cabane to
do double tracks, which is apretty standard recording
technique, but again you gotthat dichotomy always through

(49:40):
with cabane, which I'm saying,which is in between the legend
and the nuance.
He he kind of didn't want tobecause he thought it was
selling out and not punk andcool, but then he did it and it
sounded amazing.
So you've got that that pull inhim all the time.
It's not like an outward force,it's something within him.
He wants to be in a successfulband but unfortunately obviously

(50:02):
can't control the trajectory ofthat when it happens, and it's
incredible and he does, and hedoes, they, they do react
against it within Utero.

Steve (50:10):
I mean, in Utero it's Steve Albini whose famous
production technique is okay,everybody turn the musical
instruments on play.

Brett (50:19):
I'm pressing record now it's a bit like this podcast.
Really, it's very much likethis he's like the ultimate
under producer.

Steve (50:27):
he's like famous for wildly undercer.
He's famous for wildlyunderproducing everything, and
so that's why Neutro sounds likea child has produced it,
Because that's what they wantedafter Nevermind.

Brett (50:42):
Yeah, they were really trying to slam the brakes on.

Steve (50:45):
Yeah, because it is one of the most famously
overproduced albums of all time.

Dave (50:49):
Okay, so let's get to the final pairing in the first round
, which is the final two trackson this album.
So Something in the Way, track12, against Endless Nameless,
which was a hidden track.

Steve (51:03):
You're not putting Endless Nameless in here.
Why did I not get this fuckingmemo?

Dave (51:08):
you absolute knob if you didn't read the memo.

Steve (51:12):
Well, I didn't read it.
Do you expect me to read?

Brett (51:16):
all the memos you send.
I'll just bury you in memos,steve that's my tactic from now
on that is a very good tactic.
Something in the way, somethingin the way yeah.

Nirvana (52:00):
I'm not a lamb, I'm dying lamb, I am.

Steve (52:06):
I am, I am, I am, I am okay.
Well, just to make the point, Iwas previously making endless
nameless hidden track seven anda half years of loud nonsense
that they make up on the spotand it still sounds radio

(52:26):
friendly because of butchfucking Vig.
It's like, oh, what you know?
It's like I mean, it's justnoise, and still you could put
it on your mum and be like, oh,it's got a good beat to it?

Dave (52:37):
was it played at parties?
No, it wasn't.
I'd never remember this.
No, it's a pretty hard listen.
Was there a gap on the CD?

Brett (52:44):
my wife has got a great story about it yes, massive it
was like minutes many, manyminutes so my wife, basically,
would used to go to a local barand it had a jukebox and you'd
put on, you could choose yourtracks and they would always.
Her and her friends would alwayschoose this one because it was
preceded by half an hour ofsilence, everyone going up to

(53:05):
the jukebox smacking, itwondering why it's broken and
then suddenly, half an hourlater, silence, everyone going
up to jukebox, smacking it,wondering why it's broken, and
then suddenly, half an hourlater, endless, nameless would
come on with their treat ofwaiting half an hour music.
Outrageous, it wasn't it?

Steve (53:14):
wasn't half an hour, in fact I think it's about six or
seven minutes, but it was a bigold gap, big gap yeah, but, uh,
but yeah it was like putting onheroin by the velvet underground
.
You know you, you would upseteveryone in the pub.
It, it's brilliant.
It's a good prank.

Brett (53:28):
It's a good prank.

Steve (53:31):
But it's classic day of the CD, though I mean it's so
such a classic height of the CDmove, isn't it?
It's like hidden tracks greatconcept, keep them.
Like the Beatles, either havethat little bit of zing, dang,
bing, bang, bing, bing, bing atthe end of Sgt Pepper, and it's
finished.
Or have Her Majesty at the endof Abbey Road, and it's finished
great.

(53:51):
It's like oh no, we've got CDsand we didn't manage to fill up
the whole thing, which, ofcourse, equally, was the crime
of the time let's put 27 songson 76 minutes of music we must
fill all 76 minutes.
So this was the other crime ofthe era, was we?

Brett (54:05):
only filled 45 minutes.
Let's put a ridiculous hiddentrack up on it I think you had
to reel it up to track 99 toplay it as my memory.
So that's what stopped a lot ofpeople.
But yeah, if you wait a certainamount of time, it just come on
and sometimes you'd forget,especially if you were, you know
, having a drink.
Oh, was it that one that did?

Steve (54:20):
yeah, I thought that was thought that was the stone roses
maybe it might have been.
Yeah, it might have been one ofthem yeah, and it would flip
through, and it would go trackone track two like track 72,
track 74, track 75, track 76,and you're looking at it going.
These are all silent and twoseconds long.
What's happening in the dayswhen something like that seemed
wildly exciting?

Brett (54:40):
before we had smartphones and we could just indulge any
impulse we wanted at the clickof a button.
This is entertainment back inthe day, kids, thank you, lucky
stars but, anyway, we're allobviously, obviously, obviously
voting for Endless Nameless,aren't we obviously?
It's a banger it's something inthe way, dave 3-0.

Dave (55:01):
So we're agreeing that the album really finishes with
something in the way.

Brett (55:05):
Yeah, it does 100% and it goes through 3 nil it does, and
that's the end of the firstround.

Dave (55:11):
Just something that was mentioned during the first round
.
I think, steve, you mentioned,uh, john lennon yeah was kurt
cabane the john lennon of hisgeneration?
No, was he destined to befamous and celebrated?
Still no uh, yeah, I mean yes,no no, he I think he was.

Steve (55:28):
I think he was very much a man of um, a man of that time
he was.
You know, whether he liked itor not, I think that was the the
, the path he was going to endup on but then again, you know
it, it's a, it's a.
You know that there are anumber of things like like with
the beatles, like with any band,where it's like right place,
right time, situations, luck,circumstance, videos which we'll

(55:52):
get to later, lots of thingsbroke.
This album Do you know what?
I'm going to stick with myoriginal idea of no, he could
have just been some undergrounddude.
I think that's why he didn'tcope.
I think he was a sensitiveunderground punk dude who ended
up, you know.

Brett (56:11):
Being forced into being the quote-unquote spokesman of a
generation.
Whatever the fuck that means.
What a load of bollocks that is.
Like that pressure's way toomuch.
No, he didn't, but it's yeah,once your life gets, once you
become that famous and you'rereasonably sensitive or not
really up for that deal, whichyou probably didn't really
consider he was, then shit gets,goes skewed very quickly and it

(56:35):
just runs out of control fromyou, doesn't it?
It's just, yeah, it's a wholebeast around him.
So was he destined I don'tthink anyone's destined to be
famous.
I mean, there are so manythings that can happen that just
off-release I mean you, whenyou you read even the story of
the Beatles, it's like almost ashanging by a thread that they
managed to just finally get arecord deal.
I don't know, I mean he had, butdid he have absolutely

(56:56):
everything to be famous and tohave a huge impact?
Yeah, amazing voice tone to hisvoice, incredible songwriting,
great guitar, playing in anamazing dedicated, hard-working
band.
They weren't just like, hey,let's turn up and be cool.
They worked at it hard.
They really did for years.

(57:17):
So, yeah, he had all theingredients.
But I don't think anyone'sdestined to be famous.
You have to really, as Stevesays, work hard at it, have the
talent.

Steve (57:27):
Those are the prerequisites, and then you need
that little bit of luck as wellyeah, and there are moments
that happen on the way and youknow when, when the smells like
team spirit video dropped ontontv very quietly, people would
watch it and get to the end andgo, what the fuck did?
I just watch and and it startedthere.
That's where it started.
But you know that sometimesvideos are just as big a thing

(57:49):
as anything else and that's verymuch part of Nevermind's story.
Is the promotional videos forthose singles.

Dave (57:55):
Well, we can get to it now , because at the start of the
second round.

Brett (57:59):
We're into the second round.

Dave (58:00):
The start of the second round.

Brett (58:01):
I need a territorial pissing.
I'm so sorry.

Dave (58:05):
I'll come back to that.

Brett (58:05):
Hold that thought just put in a sound effect of a
toilet flushing, and then we'llcome back on to the second round
, which starts?

Dave (58:18):
surely that's the quarter finals?
Smells like quarter finals.

Brett (58:21):
I mean, you've only been doing it 50 episodes, but call
it second round.
That's rubbish come on, do youremember that time?

Dave (58:27):
Steve did it and he the qualifiers, he called the first
love it, don't you?
And it just makes so much yeah,yeah, it does, he loved it
because the qualifiers is likewhat, what's the qualifiers?
And they get the quarter finalsand even then it's a bit like
what the quarter?

Brett (58:42):
the quarter finals.
Everyone knows what the fuckingquarter, everyone knows the
quarter.
It gives a sense of drama.
It gives a sense of progression.
Watch the World Cup or the USOpen If you've grown up on the
FA Cup, fa.

Dave (58:52):
Cup.
Well, yeah, I guess.
So yeah, if you've watched it.
But yeah, first round, secondround, yeah, that just.

Brett (58:59):
No.
Second round.
Third round, Semifinal.
Third round, the fourth round,and people are going.
Where's the fifth?

Dave (59:05):
round, fuck that.
No, no semi-finals.
I think you get semi-finalsquarter-finals do you want me to
do?

Brett (59:10):
you want me to say quarter-finals?
Say what you want, but I'mgoing to say it anyway.
So you do.
Whenever you say second round,from now until the end of time,
I will go quarter-finals okay,alright, I like it.

Dave (59:25):
On to the second round, where we've got Smells Like Teen
Spirit against In Bloom guitarsolo.

Nirvana (01:00:04):
Light up our guns, bring the best party.
Light up our guns, bring yourfriends On in.
Hey, the one who likes all ourpretty songs and he likes to

(01:00:28):
sing along and he likes to shoothis gun, but he knows not what
it means, knows not what itmeans.
And he's the one who likes allour pretty songs and he likes to
sing along and he likes to takea long and he likes to shoot

(01:00:50):
his gun, but he knows not whatit means, knows not what it
means, knows not what it means,knows not what it means.

Brett (01:01:02):
That's who he is so track one and track two yeah, I mean
this album.

Dave (01:01:22):
It really, uh, it really delivers a um, a series of
bangers up front, doesn't it?
It starts with smells like teenspirit.
Track one in bloom.
Track two and, come as you are,track three, which we haven't
got to yet yeah, I mean, are allthe singles?

Brett (01:01:38):
and then you've got side a?
I think they are, aren't they?
Yeah, pretty much I mean that'ssome bangers.
So it's an amazing album for itto not just go everyone's gone.
Yeah, it's amazing, six songsat it to not just go everyone's
going.
Oh yeah, it's amazing six songsat the start and then it gets
really fillery.
I mean Side B is great as well,but yeah, it's extraordinary.

Dave (01:01:56):
It's like relentless sing-along.
Greatest hits of Nirvana isn'tit to start the first.
Yeah, four of the first fivetracks.

Brett (01:02:08):
There's a shape to it, though.
Side a starts of an absolutemassive metal heavy metal, punk
rock, whatever you want todefine it, banger and ends on
like a, like a dour downbeat,acoustic one.
And side b does the sameterrestrial piercings and
something in the way.
It smells like teen spirit poly.
They're both.
There's a kind of a shape to itI mean it's.
It's a flimsy argument, but I'mgonna make it anyway.
Um yeah, but yeah, you're,you're.
Right side A's got banger afterbanger.

Dave (01:02:28):
It's ridiculous, it's absolutely ridiculous and it
starts with the biggest of allof them smells like teen spirit.

Steve (01:02:34):
Yeah, I mean, I think that I think that's a that is a
fair point though.
For it to start with, I meanfor it to have such a big,
hitter, heavy, single, heavyfirst side to an album and yet
in no way to feel like thesecond half of the album is
short, changing you that's quitea thing.

Brett (01:02:51):
Yeah, that's extraordinary.
It really is.
It's just unbelievable.
Well Smells Like Teen Spirit ismega huge.
Does it have WonderwallSyndrome for overview too?

Steve (01:03:00):
we've all heard it a billion times.
Oh god, yeah, totally no.
I would say no it doesn't.

Dave (01:03:08):
That's what we like.
Divergence of opinion here onmccartney and goal, so not for
you, dave and I'd say and, andthat is to that speaks to just
how amazing it is that it's oneof those songs that doesn't feel
overplayed, even though it'soverplayed oh, I mean hugely
overplayed, I mean literally.

Brett (01:03:26):
I mean hugely overplayed, I mean literally on heavy
rotation.
The video was on MTV foreverwhen it was released.

Steve (01:03:34):
But that was the moment I think that was the moment
You've got this very strangemurky anarchy cheerleaders.
Video drop.
It didn't sound like anythingelse.
It didn't look like anythingelse and that is a combination.
You couldn't see their facesand they were very mysterious,
slightly blurry, wasn't it?

Brett (01:03:52):
you couldn't really tell how many people were even in the
band let alone what they lookedlike, and and it just it was
about the crowd, wasn't it thatvideo, yeah, yeah, and the crowd
.

Steve (01:04:00):
You know that really changed the whole thing because
people just were like what, whatis happening?
What is this?
Um.
But yeah, I mean I'm not sayingthat I don't like listening to
it now, I'm just I just haveheard it a lot, um, but you know
, comparative to the rest of thealbum, but you know it's still
a great track.
I mean, the lyrics are completenonsense.

(01:04:21):
Um, I mean, isn't it here?

Brett (01:04:23):
we are now great entertain us is a good line.
Now, here we are now.
Entertain us.
That's a nice the first a goodline, though.
Here we are now entertainers.
That's a nice opening line.

Steve (01:04:29):
The verses are good but then, once you get into mulatto
albino, my libido and thesesorts of things.
It really is like okay, but youknow shouting a denial 37 times
at the end.
It's a denial.
It sounds so powerful, it's sopowerful.

Brett (01:04:50):
It doesn't matter, it's that whole.
Thing I always come back to isthe chime of the lyric.
I mean, some of his lyricsdon't necessarily add up to a
hugely coherent, uh, end point,but that if you're a 16 year old
, screaming denial, I denial, orwhatever it's, yeah, it just
feels amazing and you feel likeyou're, you know you're fighting
the system, you're standing upto the man, whatever.

(01:05:11):
It is great and like the amountof mosh pitch we would have
been involved in, because thiscame out when we were 16, at the
perfect time to launch yourselfinto a mosh pit.
Uh yeah it's just phenomenalfeeling, but he had it he had a
good.

Steve (01:05:25):
It's not just about the scan or the vibe of the lyric.
Sometimes because some of thatRed Hot Chili Peppers stuff it
is just meaningless, completelymeaningless wordplay.
And you know a denial, it stillmanages to when it matters,
when the vocals push through ina way where you can hear what

(01:05:46):
the words are.
He picks the right word becausea potato would scan, but it
wouldn't it.
You know it doesn't.
You know how, about a potato?

Brett (01:05:56):
a potato a potato would sound better and more american,
certainly, but um, you know Imean when, dave, you asked if he
was destined to be famous, ifhe had chosen fatefully to sing
a potato, I think it could havederailed the entire fucking
story and we would never itwould have been a different
project yeah, I mean yeah, abetter project

Dave (01:06:17):
someone argue definitely so it's up against smells like
teen spirit is up against inbloom, which is also one of the
most sing-along songs on thealbum.

Brett (01:06:30):
In fact, it contains the lyric he's the one who likes all
our pretty songs.

Dave (01:06:34):
He loves to sing along sing along with all our pretty
songs, yeah well, that's what Ilove about that song.

Steve (01:06:39):
As I say, you know, that's when it was paired up
with polly I.
I really like the fact that ithelped because he was.
He was bullied to all hell byjocks.
You know, classic sort ofsports, playing jocks at school
and that sort of thing it wassuch a dig.
Yeah, yeah, exactly, and it wassuch a dig at you know this
whole thing of he's the one thatlikes all our pretty songs and

(01:07:00):
he likes to shoot his gun.
He likes to sing along but hedoesn't know what any of it
means.
He's not listening he's notlistening to the lyric, he's not
paying any attention to thesong, you know, and it was
because, again, that was part ofhis thing was I don't want
jocks coming to my concert andbe like yeah, nirvana, yeah,
metal guitar is loud, you know,and he fucking hated that and

(01:07:23):
that he would have definitelyhated that they would have
definitely loved it as well.

Brett (01:07:27):
He would have hated the success, because when you're
that successful, you cannot bediscriminated with who is
listening to you.
It's everybody, and that meanspeople who like to shoot their
guns, to put that lyric yeah,exactly yeah.

Steve (01:07:36):
to put that lyric in pre-Nevermind breaking up,
clearly shows that he, you know,had already suffered your
average sort of college footballdude turning up and, you know,
rocking a devil horn symbol, youknow, at his, at his gigs and
that was already disquieting himyeah uh, enough to turn up on
the album before they've got big, you know so.

(01:07:58):
So he, I love that yeah he hadno friends growing up.

Brett (01:08:02):
His mum said, or he had very few um, quite a very
intelligent boy, um, and hehated, hated his hometown
because it was all just reallyalpha male, macho guys with
their guns so he described it.
And he eventually becamefriends with um when he was a
teenager, with with chris uh,nova celic, and they started to
form a band and that was kind ofhis way out really, and then

(01:08:23):
they moved to seattle.
But yeah, he had a big thingabout that and this is what this
song is about, I think, reallyespecially that line about likes
to shoot his gun.
You know, that is about hisrejection of the alpha male and
why he definitely, even in theearly 90s, would have defined
himself as a feminist and someof the lyrics on here have got
some kind of allusion to that aswell.

Steve (01:08:47):
But another great video as well, because it was the in
bloom in bloom, yeah, in bloom.
Another completely brilliantvideo because, because it's that
whole ed sullivan, uh pastichewhere they, you know because and
this was the first video where,having seen them in some sort
of murky smells like teen spirit, mosh pit you you got to see
their faces.
Beautifully ironic sort ofdressed up in suits in black and

(01:09:08):
white, brilliant and again it,you know.
So the video had that kind ofyou don't really understand
what's happening here, vibe,that the lyric did and I thought
that was so good, um, you know,and then it sort of vaguely
descended into like sort ofduality chaos where there was
like two nirvanas, like the one,that the clean cut ones still
singing along in the ed sullivanstyle, and then the ones in in

(01:09:29):
dresses, you know, breaking upthe equipment, uh, the sort of,
yeah, the duality of it.

Dave (01:09:34):
Yeah, exactly, and I just um again, another great video
for a great song yeah, great Iremember a special mention gone,
a special mention to the guitarsolo in in bloom, which is a
very indie guitar solo of theperiod it's just noise, which is
brilliant, it's, it's, it'sit's just noise.

Steve (01:09:54):
But again, that's what frustrates me about this album
is is to have something I don'tknow.
Some days I think it'sbrilliant and other days I'm
really frustrated by it.
Because to to have somethingthat atonal, there's not a note
in it.
Uh, if it's the one I'mthinking of, it is that one,
isn't it?
Yeah, uh, there's not a note init.
If it's the one I'm thinking of, it is that one, isn't it?
Yeah, it's just atonal noise.
And it still sounds like itshould be on an FAM rock radio

(01:10:19):
station, you know, somehow, andthat is a testament to the
production.
Yeah.

Dave (01:10:27):
I think it's great because of that.
How are we voting?

Brett (01:10:31):
We've got to vote gang.
We're trying to avoid votingbecause it's bloody hard Because
no one wants to vote for TeenSpirit because it's so obvious.

Steve (01:10:38):
But it's very hard not to .

Dave (01:10:39):
I do.
I'm going to vote for TeenSpirit.
Okay.
I said it wasn't overplayed.
I don't hear it and feel it'soverplayed.
I hear it and still enjoy it asmuch.
I mean, it's a pop tune, isn'tit?
But it's a rock tune, it's agenerational anthem and it still
sounds brilliant.

(01:11:00):
That was the original title.

Steve (01:11:01):
That was the original title of the song.
What was that?
Generational Anthem?
No, Anthem.
Anthem was the original titleof the song.

Brett (01:11:16):
Do you know?
Do you know how it got its name?
No, he called the song anthem.
And uh, what's the name frombikini kill.
So toby vale sounds dismissive,doesn't he?

Steve (01:11:20):
um from bikini he was going out with um, they would
stay up late into the nighthaving, uh, these intense
conversations about politics andall these kind of things.
And he said I've got this songplayed it to them and everything
else.
He said I want to call itanthem and that bikini kill had
a song called anthem and saidyou can't call it that.
So he's like, oh, I don't knowwhat to call it then.
And he worked, they went to bedand he woke up the next morning

(01:11:40):
and she'd gone to work orwhatever, and um, she'd written
on the mirror Kurt smells liketeen spirit right and he thought
that this was a reference tosome sort of radical
conversation.
That they'd been having theprevious night that he'd
forgotten because he's in hisdrunken haze or whatever,
because it sounds great liketeen the spirit of the teens

(01:12:03):
rising up and didn't find out.
So he changed it to smells liketeen spirit because this he
thought that was good.
He didn't find out until afternevermind came out that teen
spirit was the name of herdeodorant and literally she
she'd just written kurt smellslike teen spirit because she, he

(01:12:24):
smelled of her deodorant andthat was literally just the
point that she was makingcompletely brilliant.

Dave (01:12:29):
I've just looked it up on Amazon and you can actually
still buy teen spirit deodorant.
It's 38 quid for a six pack youhave to pay a Nirvana premium.

Steve (01:12:44):
Now, that's the.
Thing.

Brett (01:12:45):
I knew it had been named it was a deodorant but I didn't
know that.
He didn't know that until untilhe found it afterwards.
Well, lucky she didn't wearLynx Africa, because that would
have been a completely differentvibe yeah, that would have been
a different vibe.

Steve (01:13:00):
That would have been a different vibe.

Brett (01:13:03):
Toto would have been in touch.

Dave (01:13:04):
Yeah, how are we voting?
I'm voting for Teen Spirit.

Brett (01:13:09):
Okay, steve, what are you going with Brett?

Steve (01:13:12):
No, Brett, you have to go first.

Brett (01:13:13):
I am also voting as far as that Teen Spirit because Ian
Bloom is amazing, but I thinkwe'd be shot if we.
I think we'd be.

Dave (01:13:23):
Yeah, if we celebrated our 50th episode by killing a
sacred cow, I mean we at thefirst stage, but we've done that
before.
You see so many times.

Brett (01:13:34):
I think we'd be angering a lot of people if we got rid of
Smells Like Teen Spirit at it'sfirst appearance.
So I'm going to vote for SmellsLike Teen Spirit and it's an
amazing song, obviously, so it'svery easy to vote for it.

Steve (01:13:45):
Steve, I want to abstain.

Brett (01:13:47):
I don't even know Can't do that.
We've gone through this beforeit's gone through.

Steve (01:13:50):
Yeah, I know, but it's gone through, so I can abstain.

Brett (01:13:52):
It won't cause any issues .
You've got to vote.
You've got to vote.

Steve (01:13:59):
I just don't know.
Just vote for In.

Dave (01:14:01):
Bloom, just do it.
I'm On chorus harmonies.

Steve (01:14:05):
The harmonies on this album are fantastic.

Brett (01:14:07):
Amazing All the way through.
Amazing Like he bringsincredible drumming and the
notes he plays.
It's just an absolute beast,incredible.
But the harmonies as well.
Oof Incredible.
Beautiful the blend they've got.

Steve (01:14:21):
There's great harmonies all over this album, so good.

Brett (01:14:26):
I mean, you think of this as a big, muscular, punk grunge
mixture of heavy metal and punksound, but there's so much
melody.
There's so much melody andharmony as well.
It's phenomenal.
That's why it's such a greatalbum.
That's why it cuts through.

Dave (01:14:38):
So our next pairing is On a Plane against Breed, better
than you Know it's wrong.
So what should I do?
I'm on a plane, I can'tcomplain.
I'm on a plane Somewhere.

Nirvana (01:15:04):
I have heard this before In a dream.
My memory's torn After it feltso new to me.
What the hell am I trying tosay?

Brett (01:15:44):
Even if you have, even if you need, I don't need to stare
, we don't have to breathe, wecan find a house, we can rent a

(01:16:06):
tree, I mean, yeah, well, breed,if we're talking about Dave
Grohl and his drumming likeBreed is absolutely incredible.
His drumming on that it's justso good.
Do you know what Breed wasoriginally about?
It was titled Imodium, which isa constipation drug.

Steve (01:16:25):
Yes, because they were on tour with uh, tad yeah and uh,
the main guy, tad, whatever hisname is that they're named after
had like chronic diarrhea ontour yeah, chronic diarrhea
breed is breeds, the fourth songin the album, isn't it?

Dave (01:16:38):
so you've got um teen spirit in bloom, come as you are
.
And then you've got breed,which is almost like a sort of
grunge punk.
Uh, palate cleanser, somethinga bit harder before you go back
to lithia which is almost like asort of grunge punk.
Uh, palate cleanser, somethinga bit harder before you go back
to lithia which is another,another single.

Brett (01:16:53):
Yeah, you've got four.
Yeah, four.
It's the only one that's not asa bit.
It could have been a single.
It's so good.
I, I love it, but on a planeit's against.
On a plane which the harmonieson that on a plane.

Steve (01:17:04):
I know the harmonies.
Yeah, love myself better thanyou, those harmonies better than
you this is.
This is the day of girlquarterfinal.

Brett (01:17:12):
This is the day of girl quarterfinal, because you've got
this amazing, amazing drumming.
What he brings this band andjust elevates it way, way higher
than what they even had before,which was incredible, and then
on a plane, which is theharmonies he adds to it, and it
actually ends on the harmonies,doesn't it?
They fade down to just theharmonies which is lovely.

Dave (01:17:27):
What an amazing song did they do?
Was on a plane one of the mtvunplugged songs?
Yes, I think it was.
It's really special on that aswell when it's played
acoustically.
So I'm gonna vote for.
Go for on a plane, steve.
What are you going with?

Brett (01:17:43):
I'm going on a plane as well, okay, I'm gonna vote for
breed, just uh, so I can keep mypunk credentials flying high
with a black flag.

Steve (01:17:52):
Nice.

Dave (01:17:54):
I suspect you were going to vote for Breed anyway.

Brett (01:17:57):
Brett Possibly but yeah, I think I would have done.
It's just so good.
Yeah, sometimes when we do thispodcast, it's like ooh there's
like four really really goodsongs and then it's like oh,
what are we going to say about,I don't know, texarkana or
something like that, which is alovely?

Dave (01:18:14):
song.
I love that song, I know you do.

Brett (01:18:17):
But it's all right, because Dave's got really
fucking weird taste.
He probably really loves thatone so we're laughing, but yeah,
so what do you?
How do you?
But this one is just like it'stotally the opposite problem.
It's like how do you not voteit through?
How do you narrow it down?
It is tricky.

Dave (01:18:33):
So we're into the second half now of the second round.
Quarter finals.
The tracks against each otherhere are Come, as you Are
against Territorial Pissings.
It's the first time we spokeabout Come.

Steve (01:18:44):
As you Are, he's doing his English thing again.
This is when we were doing.
I will always come back to theRed Hot Chili Peppers episode
now.

Dave (01:18:52):
What did I say?
What was?

Steve (01:18:54):
it.

Dave (01:18:55):
I can't remember.
I could have lied.

Brett (01:18:58):
Oh, I could have lied, I could have lied, I could have
lied, I could have lied, but Ididn't.
But I chose not to lie.

Steve (01:19:03):
That's just not cricket brackets.
Closed brackets.
So, American fans, just for you, let's hear Dave say those
titles again in the most Britishway humanly possible.

Dave (01:19:14):
The next pairing in our competition is Come as you Are.

Steve (01:19:19):
Come as you Are.

Dave (01:19:20):
Track three against Territorial Pissings, which is
track seven.

Steve (01:19:26):
If you sound like uber British to me.
God alone knows what the guylistening down in Arkansas
thinks.
Right now it's like, oh, thoseguys are so British, it just
breaks me.

Nirvana (01:19:58):
Come as you are, as you were, as I want you to be, as a
friend, as a friend as I know.
Let me Take your time, hurry up, the choice is yours.
Don't be late, take a rest as afriend, as I know.

(01:20:23):
Memory, memory, memory.
Oh, memory, memory, memory,memory.
Just because you're a paranoid,don't mean they're not after

(01:21:03):
you.

Steve (01:21:07):
Can I talk about territory of pissings, not
knowing whether it's going outor not?

Dave (01:21:11):
Yeah, I do know what I'm voting for, but yeah, talk about
it.

Brett (01:21:16):
Go on.
What are you voting?

Steve (01:21:17):
for what's it up against?

Brett (01:21:18):
Come as you are.

Dave (01:21:19):
Come as you are Come as you are.

Steve (01:21:22):
Well, should we vote first then, because I feel like
I know where this is going.

Dave (01:21:26):
Well, I'm going, come as you Are, come as you Are, okay.

Brett (01:21:29):
Steve, where are you going?

Nirvana (01:21:34):
I've come as you are, but I'm going to have to go.

Steve (01:21:35):
Territorial Pissings, because I think it is my
favourite thing on the album.

Brett (01:21:37):
It's always dangerous to assume on this podcast, steve,
because it makes an arse out ofyou and me and I am voting for.
Territorial Pissings, oh Come.
As you territorial pissings oh,come as you are, it's gone out
straight out bang bang goes thesingle.
I'm coughing with shock.
In comes the hardcore mentalrant on the side of side.

Steve (01:21:59):
B oh fucking love it my lord, what just happened there?

Brett (01:22:03):
well, dave said.
Dave said come as you are, andthen he said territorial
pissings.
And then he said I went, ah,territorial pissings, it's just
so good.
Dave said come as you are, andthen he said Territorial Pistons
.

Dave (01:22:09):
And then I went oh, territorial Pistons, it's just
so good, it's just so good.
Yeah, I was going to say comeas you are, but I'm not
massively shocked that it wentout, not because it's not
excellent, but because thequantity and quality all the way
across this album is so big.
I think the only surprise wouldbe if Endless Nameless beat

(01:22:30):
anything, but I think everythingelse, that'd be literally the
only surprise.

Brett (01:22:33):
Yeah, and you know what?
It wouldn't have shocked me ifyou voted for it, dave, I'll be,
honest.
But Come as you Are is great,but it is a rip-off of.
The riff is famously a rip-off,isn't it?
Of 80s Killing Joke.
Riff is famously a rip-offisn't it of 80s killing joke
song 80s yeah and they kind ofripped it off.

Nirvana (01:23:06):
I'm 18.
I'm moving in the 80s.

Brett (01:23:11):
But I read today that the welcome sign of Aberdeen, where
Kurt Cabanis promises, readsWelcome to Aberdeen, come as you
are.
So maybe it's got some allusionto that.

Steve (01:23:21):
Well, presumably it says that since Nirvana, maybe, but I
didn't read it that way.
I don't think it was okay, Ijust I just because he's from
there.

Brett (01:23:33):
May well, that would probably make sense, but the way
I read it and the way it waswritten was more that that's
what it's always read as.
But yeah, that could be a kindof internet thing where someone
reports when it doesn't put thatdisclaimer in well, something's
don't know, something's wrongon the internet.

Dave (01:23:49):
No, something's inaccurate on the internet no, that can't
be unlikely highly unlikely.

Brett (01:23:55):
No, that can't be right, dave, it must all be correct.

Steve (01:23:57):
No, that's ridiculous I'll have to leave the flat
earth society if that's true andI have no intention of leaving
because you get free biscuits-that's the most important thing
about the flowers.

Brett (01:24:07):
Is the free biscuits.
Lovely, all right.
Well, come as you are, is it'samazing?
But but we have managed.
You thought here's where wesurprised you listening.
You thought we're gonna do itwith smells like teen spirit.
We didn't.
We got you on core final two,three with come as you are.

Steve (01:24:23):
But it's territorial pissings, man, it's just but no,
I think come as come as you areis great.
It's territorial pissings man,it's just.
No, I think Come as you Are isgreat.
It's a great riff.
The lyric works so well.
You know, again, it's one ofthe ones where I don't.
It's one of the less opaquesort of less nebulous, like
what's he talking about lyrics.
It feels a little more.
I don't know what he's tryingto say, but it feels a little

(01:24:44):
more direct than some of them.
It feels a little more directthan some of them, but the lyric
works so well.
The vocal works so well.
The riff works so well.
Everything works great.
Again, overproduced within aninch of its life, but you know,
again, great video.

Brett (01:24:59):
It is, but it's probably the most egregious or clear
example of just him writing somelyrics that don't really mean a
huge amount but sound cool andeveryone's going to tune into
like big anthemy lyrics which hedid quite a lot on this album,
didn't he?

Dave (01:25:17):
because he was.

Brett (01:25:19):
He was writing just before, just in time I'm sure
that was it, yeah, and I justobviously didn't think they were
going to be, uh, you know,under so much scrutiny 40 years
later or 30 years later.

Steve (01:25:29):
He was writing.
What do you mean?
He was writing just in time forthe sessions, or what?

Dave (01:25:33):
Yeah, yeah, just in time for the sessions, so he'd come
up with the song and the melodyand then he'd write the lyrics
after that I didn't know whereyou were going.

Steve (01:25:43):
You didn't qualify it, so you said he was writing.
You know he was writing.
You know he was confused at thetime because he was writing
just in time and I was thinkingwas he writing a book at the
time?
I don't remember.

Dave (01:25:51):
Actually there's an example of that.
The opening words, the openinglyrics to On a Plane are I'll
start this off without any words, which was him just starting
with.
You know he was writing itliterally just before.

Brett (01:26:08):
Yeah, on the plane is good.
We'll get to the lyrics on that, so really quite interesting
actually Right.

Dave (01:26:14):
So territorial pissings has gone through, of course it
does A little dark horse that itis.
And the last tie, the lastpairing in the second round is
lithium against something in theway.

Brett (01:26:29):
That's easy, is it?
Is it I'm so?

Nirvana (01:26:32):
ugly.
That's okay cause, so are youbroke on?
Me is Sunday morning, is everyday, for all I care, and I'm not
scared.
Light my candles in our days,cause I found God.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

(01:27:08):
yeah, yeah.
Something in the way.

Steve (01:27:20):
Yeah, something in the way.
Something in the way yeah.

Brett (01:27:45):
I mean you've got one of the biggest single.
Well, it's a huge tune, hugetune lithium.
I really like the intro on it.
It's got this great uh, rhythmguitar, intro and bass.
It's really.
Oh, I'm so ugly.
That's okay, so are you, I meanthat's sorry that is.
If you're going to have one, thethe lyric I'm so ugly, that's
okay, because so are you.
If you want to have one linethat just sums up the idea of

(01:28:08):
grunge and kurt cobain as aspokesman of a generation,
that's pretty much it.
If you could have one life, youjust pluck, it's a perfect
outsider lyric, isn't it?
Yeah, it's a perfect outsideryeah, especially that era of the
early 90s.
Slacky had that film, slacker.
You've got all of that ideologythat generation x has come out,
hasn hasn't it?

Steve (01:28:27):
Has that come out and also yeah, yeah, the novel comes
out in 91 as well, doesn't it?

Brett (01:28:31):
And antidepressants are becoming a much more prevalent
thing.

Steve (01:28:33):
So to name it after an antidepressant and brilliant,
what a brilliant move to name itafter an antidepressant and
start with the line I'm so happyI mean it.
The wonderful irony of that isgreat.
There's some nice humourknocking about in there, isn't?

Brett (01:28:51):
there, oh loads.
I mean, have you seen the filmMontage of Heck by Brett Morgan?
Yes, it's a documentary pulledtogether from a lot of archival
footage or background footage ofKurt Cobain, like home videos
and things like that.
I think Courtney Loveapproached him and asked him to

(01:29:15):
to make a film because I thinkostensibly she wanted their
daughter to have a greater senseof who he was as a person,
rather than this kind ofspokesman of a generation grunge
hero.
You know she wanted to know whohe was as a guy.
Then you get a sense of likehere's just his humor as well,
like and all the beefs he hadwith axl rose and he'd always
use axl, axl rose and hair metalas the punchline to everything
and he was a funny guy.

(01:29:36):
But he was, yeah, very, youknow, a nice, sensitive, normal
guy and you can see howobviously he just wasn't really
ready or interested in being themegastar that or the spokesman
that everyone wanted him to be.
I mean, I went into it rathernaively oh great, it's a
documentary about kurt cobain,that'd be really interesting and
it's essentially a document tohim but also to his struggles,

(01:30:01):
because we know how the storyends and it's incredibly bleak
way for it to end and you do getan insight into that like how
he struggled and really justcouldn't cope with that pressure
.
It's kind of a harder watchthan I was stupidly imagining
anyway.
So there we go.
Montage effect is is.

Dave (01:30:18):
It's an interesting film it's, um something in the way, a
good way to close the albumsteve I don don't know.

Steve (01:30:28):
It's very atmospheric, yeah, I guess.

Brett (01:30:31):
Where else would it go If it stays on the album?
Where else would it go?
It wouldn't.

Steve (01:30:34):
I'd either lose it or leave it there.

Brett (01:30:36):
There's nothing else that could end the album there's
nothing else on this album.

Steve (01:30:39):
That could end this album .
I just don't think it's as goodas people think it is.
I think it's tainted by thefact that you've just listened
to a classic album.
So you're, you're people.
I think I feel like people giveit a freer pass than it
deserves when the lyrics aretotal hogwash and I think it

(01:31:03):
meanders and I think it's umatmosphere over songwriting or
musicianship or singing oranything.
Really, I don't like massivelyhate it, I just think it's not
as good as people think it iswhat do you think?

Brett (01:31:20):
I think it is as good as people think it is maybe
slightly better interesting,interesting.

Steve (01:31:26):
Those people, at least we know we disagree with the
people exactly.

Brett (01:31:30):
We've covered all bases.
I love it.
I think it's fantastic.
I think, like we took a lotagain mccartney and gold
trademark is talk of talk ofbookending the album.
If we're going to get into analbum, it's important how you
start and how you finish.
We've definitely establishedthat as one of the rules of a
great album and this is anextraordinary bookend.
From the violence, the power ofsmells like, to the spirit, to

(01:31:54):
then this raw intimacy ofsomething in the way is
extraordinary.
And could another band, anyband, pull off that spectrum of
of emotion and feeling?
Uh, I don't think they could.
So that's a fascinating um sidething about this album the way
it starts and it finishes.
So, yeah, I love the fact thatit's the last song on the album.
I love it and I think it's anamazing piece of music I am

(01:32:17):
somewhere in between the two ofyou oh, that's good.
Now, this is interesting.
Usually I am in between, soit's good that you've been.
You're the lukewarm water inthis situation it's fascinating.

Dave (01:32:26):
It's great well, it used to be one of one of those songs
like what's the?
Um metallica one, that theacoustic one, that um?
Nothing else matters, it usedto be like that, didn't it?
It was played around a campfire.

Brett (01:32:40):
Somebody would get an acoustic guitar out and play it
well it's really easy to play,though, because it's two chords
the entire way through it's.
So it's the first song I everlearned.
Because it's really easy toplay, though, because it's two
chords the entire way through,it's the first song I ever
learnt Because it's two chordsand they're really close to each
other on the neck E minor and Cmajor, 7.
But a weird version.

Dave (01:32:55):
And they probably play Nothing Else Matters as well,
and if they were really good atguitar, they'd play Under the
Bridge.

Brett (01:33:00):
Yeah, showing off.
Yeah, that was the show-offtune, wasn't it?

Steve (01:33:04):
yeah, yeah, definitely, except really they just played
the they'd play the intro andthen yeah, and then they'd sort
of just play some chords becausethey haven't yeah, yeah, that
you also have to play the chordsinterestingly as well.

Brett (01:33:17):
So how are we voting?
I'm definitely voting forsomething in the way I'm
definitely, definitely vote.

Dave (01:33:23):
I was gonna say the same at the same time.
I'm definitely voting Lithium.
Wow.

Brett (01:33:31):
Okay, well, I mean, the interesting thing about Saving
the Way is the production wasinteresting because he basically
I love the interview on thevocal, the way he's just so
quiet on that verse, it's sotender and intimate.
It was just extraordinary whenyou think this is a man who's
just you know, 12 songs ago,hollers, here we are now
entertain us.
Just you know, 12 songs ago,hollers um, here we are now
entertainers, you know, and I'llbuy no amalada just screaming,

(01:33:52):
and then he comes out with that.
That shows he's fuckingunbelievable range as a singer,
yeah, um, and the emotions hecan touch in in the listener.
But he basically butch v got himto record it on a guitar almost
immediately because he was inthis, in this groove, to do it
in in in the room, not even inin the studio, I think in the
control room, and it's slightlyout of tune, the guitar and it's

(01:34:13):
slightly out of time.
So he wasn't doing it to click.
So everyone had to then overdubto that and it just took
forever because they loved thevibe of it but obviously they'd
they'd not followed any of thekind of the rules of recording
which is to separate everythingto it to click during time.
So overdubbing.

Steve (01:34:26):
It was a nightmare do you know, what actually I think
most is getting under my skinand annoying me about it is that
it was recently.
It recently became very, verypopular again in the last two or
three years because it wasincluded on the soundtrack of
the Matt Reeves Batman film andyou know, because that was a

(01:34:47):
much more dark, edgy Batman filmthan we've had in a while how
many fucking Batman films?
Have there been.
There's a.

Brett (01:34:53):
Batman film every three years.
It's more fucking regular thanthe Olympics well, this was
outside the DCEU.

Steve (01:34:59):
This was the new one with what's his name from, twilight
playing him, and there must belike 24 Batmans now yeah there's
quite a few but what bothers meabout it?
There must be like 24 Batmansnow.
Yeah, there's quite a few, butwhat bothers me about it is that

(01:35:19):
there's been this very, veryirritating thing that happened
in film soundtracks, you knowwhen they get like.
A good example of it is MarilynManson doing Sweet Dreams by
the Eurythmics.
Yeah, yeah, doing sweet dreamsby the.
Eurythmics, where they just dolike a slowed down goth style
version of a popular song athalf speed and play it in the
trailer sweet dreams are made ofthis and it's like you know

(01:35:42):
someone's oh this is a dark filmand it's like okay, we get it,
you've taken a song, you've donea slow version of it.
it's like, okay, we get it.
You've taken a song Crossfadeslow-mo.
You've done a slow version of itthat's slightly dark and the
thing is that it was likesomeone was trying to subvert
that a little bit.
Oh, we'll put something in theway in, because that sounds like
all those songs, except it isactually its original self.

(01:36:02):
And I think that got on my nosea little bit, because it's just
like just everybody stop it.
So I sort of associate it withthat craze, even though it's
actually not representative ofthat craze.
But whatever you know, it's agood song, it's all good.

Brett (01:36:16):
Oh yeah, I love it.
I love it, but it's gone out toLithium, which is you know,
fair enough.
Lithium is amazing as well,there we go.

Dave (01:36:23):
It has, and that completes the second round, finally,
quarterfinals.
Quarterfinals.
Yeah, Now we're on to thesemi-finals, Brett.

Brett (01:36:33):
Or the third round, as I like to call it.

Dave (01:36:36):
Yes, the first pairing in the semi-finals is Teen Spirit
against On A Plane.

Brett (01:36:42):
Ooh, that's quite an interesting pair-up.
Smells like Teen Spirit versus.

Dave (01:36:46):
On A Plane.
Oh no, sorry, Hang on.
Oh, for fuck's sakeunbelievable.

Brett (01:36:50):
We can't fucking rely on him for anything go on.

Dave (01:36:51):
What is the third?
Round dave proper before we getthere um.
Do either of you remember yourchildhood swimming lessons?

Brett (01:37:00):
yes, not really.
I mean, I hated swimmingbecause I'm yeah, I couldn't
swim very well, go on.
What happened to yours, steve?

Steve (01:37:07):
I met Dave.
That's where I met Dave.
Did you no way?

Brett (01:37:11):
What people?

Dave (01:37:11):
don't know on this podcast .

Steve (01:37:13):
everybody is that Brett and Dave were like a pair
through school and I met themlater on in the teenage years
and then we became.
You know, there's a sort ofbond between the three of us
that exists, but those two had avery tight friendship.
But what is forgotten tohistory is that I met dave a

(01:37:35):
long time before brent, beforeme before breakfast.

Brett (01:37:39):
You've got 10 years on me swimming lessons.

Steve (01:37:42):
It's just that we didn't, you know then, connect
particularly strongly at thatearly stage.

Brett (01:37:46):
That's also you know did you try and dunk dave?
Did you try and push his headunder the water?

Steve (01:37:51):
he bullied me it's like he'd throw bricks into the
swimming pool and make me wearpyjamas and swim down to collect
, them, make you put yourpyjamas on and pick them up?
Yeah, exactly.

Brett (01:37:59):
Yeah, when do you ever need to go swimming that late at
night to pick up a brick?
I mean, it's such an unusualskill to.
Yeah, I mean is it that urgentto get a brick, really?
I mean, you know, and it'sgoing to be wet, so the mortar
won't set on it anyway, so it'sjust pointless, a pointless task
really, I think, to make thesepeople do that.

Steve (01:38:19):
Don't you?
Well, I mean, dave made me doit just for the sake of
upsetting me.
So, yes, I totally agree.
There you go.
He's a bully, he's a bully.
He's a bully.
He's a bully.

Brett (01:38:28):
He's always been a bully.
He's the type of guy KurtCobain would have hated.

Steve (01:38:31):
Yeah, exactly, axl Rose would have loved.

Brett (01:38:35):
That tells you everything you need to know.
Yeah, exactly yes, I remembermy swimming lessons.

Steve (01:38:38):
Dave, when are you going with this?
The cover art.

Brett (01:38:43):
Ah, the cover Well yeah.
The cover art is quite anextraordinary cover.
I mean, people probably don'tthink about cover art as much
these days with albums, becauseit's just a little thumbnail,
isn't it on Spotify?
But yeah, it's quite an image.
Do you want to describe it,Dave?

Steve (01:38:59):
I mean, everyone must know the image of it.
He doesn't need to describe it.
I mean, literally, if you'relistening to this podcast and
you don't know what the cover ofthis album looks like, go away,
go, go away and do somethingelse you're listening to the
wrong podcast.

Dave (01:39:13):
You're listening to the wrong podcast.
I'm not sure what podcast youwere googling.

Steve (01:39:16):
You're the wrong audience member it wasn't this one that
you were searching for but toeveryone else we love you.

Dave (01:39:23):
Please stay yeah, it was.
It's that famous, isn't it thecover of this album?

Brett (01:39:29):
yeah, it's very famous and it's a very 90s message as
well, isn't it?
It's like oh we're all chasingmoney.

Steve (01:39:38):
Don't chase money.
It's bad.
It's like, yeah, okay, that's alittle bit on the simplistic
side, but thanks for that.
It's like, oh, the corporatemachine which this album's about
to become.

Brett (01:39:50):
The irony, oh the irony.

Steve (01:39:53):
And apparently the guy took photos of a girl child and
a boy child and the photographerpreferred pictures of the girl
child.
But Kurt Cobain was like no, weneed the penis, we need to see
the penis of it, we need to seethe little winky.
What this album needs is alittle winky woo on the cover.
It's not going to sell.
It's not going to sell with alady hoo-ha on it.

(01:40:14):
We need a winky woo that wasliterally how the conversation
went, word for word how did therecord company feel about that?

Dave (01:40:23):
I don't remember didn't they try to object to.
They wanted it airbrushed outhonestly, and Kurt wanted to put
a sticker over it sayingsomething like uh, if you were
offended by this, then you're apedophile honestly, the answer

(01:40:44):
to any question in any podcast,which which is, which is along
the lines of did the recordcompany?
How did the record company feelabout the cover?
They hated it.
How did they feel about theproduction?

Steve (01:40:55):
they hated it.
Did the record company want togo with that decision?

Dave (01:40:58):
no, how did they feel about being a triple album?

Steve (01:41:02):
they hated it because record companies I mean it.
Just it's almost pointless togo into it because record
companies are, as we all know,complete penises.

Brett (01:41:12):
Uh, ironically, uh, in this conversation well, the
interesting thing about talkingabout this record label is is
david geffen, that hespecifically signed sonic youth
because they were like the totalheroes of the rock scene and he
knew if he could get them,everyone else would come on
board because, oh, you've gotsonic youth, okay, you must have
integrity.
Once you've got sonic youth,then everyone else will sign on

(01:41:34):
because, like, you've got thethey were the gateway band, yeah
they were the one everyoneloved and respected.
They were super cool, you know?

Steve (01:41:41):
well, it was them that said to nirvana, because kirk
commandant adored them, didn'the?
Yeah, it was them it was themthat said uh, yeah, you want to
sign to geffen?
Geffen, honestly, davidGeffen's a very strange
character anyway.
He went from being like a areal hero sort of counterculture
hero guy to being an absolutevillain and then being to sort
of like a more opaque sort ofnot quite sure character.

(01:42:02):
But he's a.

Dave (01:42:04):
He's a very strange character study, that man did he
have Guns N' Roses signed atthe same time?
Wasn't Use your Illusionreleased on Geffen?
I don't remember you mean theRed and the.

Steve (01:42:16):
Blue album.

Dave (01:42:17):
Yeah, the Red and the Blue album.
That's right.
So the first pairing in thesemi-final is Smells Like Teen
Spirit against On A Plane.
Hey, hey, hey, we'll be rightback oh hard.

Steve (01:43:40):
He was really worried about smells like teen spirit
because he two things he he wasreally scared about playing it's
the band, because he wasabsolutely terrified that the
band would think it was a ripoff of More Than A Feeling by
Boston.
More Than A Feeling by Boston,think about the guitar riff in

(01:44:00):
that.
Think about that big guitarriff.
In fact, if you could play alittle bit of that guitar riff
here, that would be amazing.
Can I play it now?
Shall I play it now?
Yeah, yeah, shall I play it now,but he was also when it came

(01:44:29):
out.
He was terrified that thepublic would realise that it was
a rip-off of the Pixies becauseit had completely co-opted
their quiet, loud, quiet, loudthing and he desperately wanted
to be in the Pixies or, by hisown admission, just in a Pixies
cover band, because he adoredthe Pixies so much.
So he was.
It smells like teen spirit.
He's like.
You know the band aren't goingto like it because they're going

(01:44:53):
to think I'm ripping off Boston.
The public aren't going to likeit because they're thinking I'm
ripping off the Pixies.
This isn't you know.
So he was a bit, he was a bit,you know.

Brett (01:44:59):
He wasn't convinced but afterwards, after it had come
out and this album had blown upand become as mega successful as
it, started to hate playingSmells Like Teen Spirit.
They hated playing it.
And my wife guess what?
My wife's first ever gig was Goon Nirvana.
That's ridiculous.
I mean that's just tops all anylist anyone could ever.

(01:45:20):
I mean it's ridiculous.
Yeah anyway, but she said wentto the gig and Courtney Love's
band was supporting.
I don't think they were calledwhole at the time no, I don't
think they were called whole atthe time.
I think they were calledcalamity jane, um, or it was.
The band was called calamityjane and they were playing and
the audience were just a bunchof boorish twats and they were

(01:45:41):
kind of bottling her off.
So when nirvana come on, theyfucking hate everyone and they
just they literally do theircontractual amount of time on
stage and what what they woulddo is they would start playing
Smells Like Teen Spirit and thennot play it and play Going to
Lithium or something like that.
And you look at the set listand it's like I even think they
ended with Endless Nameless.

(01:46:01):
It's just extraordinary.
Like they were just like fuckyou, you know it would have
really got their goat, but yes,she said it was.
Like you know, it's great tohave that as my first ever gig,
but it wasn't like I saw peaknirvana, because they were
pissed, but yeah, but itbecomes yeah, but this song does

(01:46:22):
become an albatross aroundtheir neck, like there was a
point where they would stillplay it, but he just wouldn't do
the solo.
He just fucking hated playingthe solo, didn't he?
Um, and he just wouldn't playit.
So, but it's just a huge song,isn't it?
That is the song of, of ageneration chief, isn't it like
play it still now to people thatage and they go mad for it?
But on a plane is beautiful aswell.

Steve (01:46:42):
I love the harmonies and that I'm gonna go smells like
teen spirit and leave you twowith a difficult bit I love on a
plane, but I think even I haveto debout the superiority of of
teen spirit at this point.
So I am also going to go earlyand vote for teen spirit yes, oh
, clever, and then dave.

Dave (01:46:58):
That's easy for you now well, I would have voted for
teen spirit anyway.
Okay, so it would have been athree nil but on a plane yeah
well, the lyrics.

Brett (01:47:09):
The lyrics were interesting because it's like
he's got a few lines in thatthat just we say it is now time
to make it unclear, to write offlines that don't make sense.
It's just like he's alluding tothe fact that he just does
sometimes come out with stuffthat just doesn't make sense,
just because, like Dave Grohlsaid, he used to say the music
comes first and the lyrics comesecond, which is quite

(01:47:30):
interesting.
Um, you know, for for him tosay and for a singer to say, but
I think, you know, I think hedid, I think that's what it was
is important to him.
So some of the lyrics are.
They're interesting, they'refragments of ideas, but they
don't necessarily cohere in theway that maybe like a Bob Dylan
album, would you know, orsomething like that.
But yeah, he does reference iton a plane there and he's given

(01:47:50):
a clue to that, which is quiteclever.
Let's go on.

Dave (01:47:54):
What's the second semi-final?

Steve (01:47:56):
The second semi-final is Territorial Pissings against
Lithium's, another one with thevery conscious, soft, loud

(01:48:24):
dynamic of the Pixies and alsothat he manages to go from some
of those lyrics we've alreadytalked about which are really
sort of some irony.
There's some humor, there'ssome sort of counter culture,
appropriation stuff, and thenand then the chorus is literally
yeah, yeah, uh, which is, whichis a brilliant move.

(01:48:44):
It's like you know, I'm almostgoing to deliberately be as
moronic as possible.
Uh, for this bit, you know it'suh.
Before we get into the, I'm notgoing to crack stuff which is
equally brilliant.
That's just so great.
And again, absolute nonsense.
But nonsense never soundedbetter.

Dave (01:49:02):
But yeah, to have a chorus that's literally yeah, this is
wonderful.
I think we could do a wholeMcCartney and Goal on the best
uses of yeah in rock couldn't weand like because there's so
many great ones, aren't theylike, obviously, um the who
won't get fooled again is hereally screaming?

Steve (01:49:21):
yeah, though, that's.
I think there's just a screamoh no, I, I definitely thought.

Dave (01:49:25):
I always thought it was yeah, there's two years, aren't
there?
There's a shorter one, and thenand then it comes in.
There's a really long yeah,yeah it's phenomenal, it's the
way that you deliver them, andthat is exceptional, and I think
this is another one.
This would be, like you know,right into the semi-finals of
our mccartney and goal yeah ohyeah is such a popular word in

(01:49:45):
rock and roll I mean, um well,you'd have she she loves you
would be in there somewhere yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brett (01:49:53):
I mean I'm, I'm saying yeah.
Now I'm very conscious of thefact I'm saying that to agree,
but yes I agree.
Yeah, there is a lot.
I mean, do we want to do anentire episode on the word yet?

Dave (01:50:03):
no, no no um, no um no chance, couldn't stretch it.
But to that point, I love thechorus in Lithium.
I love Lithium.
I'm going to vote for Lithium.

Brett (01:50:19):
Ooh, territorial pissings .
Just this massive behemoth,this screaming rage, dying of
the light.
I am going to vote Territorialpissings because it's one of the
most exciting moments in rockand roll to listen to that two
minutes and something of purescreaming punk rage.

Steve (01:50:37):
And I'm going with you.
I've got to go pissing, yes.

Brett (01:50:40):
Go team Are we at the final.

Dave (01:50:43):
We are, we are.

Brett (01:50:44):
We are at the final.

Dave (01:50:46):
And our final is Teen Spirit against Territorial
Pissings.

Nirvana (01:50:51):
That's a mad final.

Brett (01:50:53):
Heavy and hard, heavy and hard we've gone.
Start a side A, start a side B.
That's a great final, that's aleft-right combination.

Steve (01:51:01):
It's a great final because it's like the most
expected song and one of thevery least expected songs in the
final together.

Brett (01:51:09):
So 50 episodes into McCartney and Goal?
Which way are we going to go?

Dave (01:51:14):
What is?

Brett (01:51:15):
more redolent of our podcast?
I don't know.
I couldn't tell you listeners.
I don't know.
What do you think we're goingto do?
I don't know yet.

Dave (01:51:22):
I still don't know Can you predict it Before we start
talking about those two, is thisas close to a perfect album as
you can get?

Brett (01:51:38):
to.
Is this as close to a perfect?

Dave (01:51:39):
album, as you can get yes or yeah if you want, if you want
to make an episode out of it,or just.
How does this?
How does this?

Brett (01:51:43):
rate.
Okay, I will.
I will qualify that it's asclose as anything gets to a
perfect album.
There are so many nuances, somany personal tastes and
opinions and everyone listen,have their their idea of what
their perfect album.
There are so many nuances, somany personal tastes and
opinions and everyone listen,have their their idea of what
their perfect album is.
But this is pretty much asidentikit as you can get of a
perfect album.
Um, it would probably be tooheavy for some people.
It won't have, um, a range ofsound or songwriting that the

(01:52:07):
beatles will have.
But how many albums have everbeen released in the history of
ever?
What millions.
This is one of the finest ever.
It really is.

Dave (01:52:17):
It really is if you're coming up with tick boxes for a
perfect.
I mean no album is perfect, butcoming up with tick boxes for a
perfect album, then you'd wantgreat songwriting.
You want'd want great singleson there Incredible vocals.
Yeah, incredible vocals, greatbook ending You'd want it to be
the poster child for a genre,something new that reflects

(01:52:40):
society.
Something timeless, somethingthat's still listened to, 30
years later.
And this ticks a lot of thoseboxes.

Steve (01:52:47):
I don't think it ticks the genre one.
Explain that to me.

Dave (01:52:50):
Okay, this is not a grunge album, if you could even say
what grunge is.
I mean, grunge is maybe asub-genre of rock, but it's
quite diverse All the differentbands that were around Seattle
at the time.
But in terms of what isregarded as grunge and the

(01:53:14):
grunge movement, this is thegrunge album yeah, I don't know,
I'm just, I'm just beingcontrary.

Brett (01:53:21):
I know it isn't it isn't, I think, someone like us.
It's just.
No, it's just.
I just struggle with it because, like we said.

Steve (01:53:26):
You know, I just struggle with it because, like we said,
pearl Jam released 10, and 10 isa classic rock album that is
mixed and produced into Oblivionso it sounds like 1991.
And this, as we said at thetime on that episode, is a punk
album that is mixed and producedinto Oblivion so that it sounds

(01:53:48):
like 1991.
And it just bothers me thatboth that act.
Some ask me tomorrow I'll saysomething different.
Some days I'm like I love thatthey sound like 1991, it's like
a beautiful time capsule, andother days I think this music
was not served as it should havebeen because it's so polished.

(01:54:09):
Uh, and for something, I'm nota punk guy, brett's a punk guy,
I've never been a punk guy, Iwant to be, but the
unpolishedness of it and thelack of melody I usually find
too hard which is what's sointeresting about Cobain's
songwriting?

Brett (01:54:27):
because he loved melody he wanted to infuse punk rock
with melody.
One of the songs, the albumsthey listened to um on the tour
bus was gold by abba.
They love melody and rubbersoul was another big touch you
talked about the melvins, thepunk band the melvins, earlier
and he said he wanted this albumto sound like the bay city
rollers being fondled by themelvins.

Steve (01:54:49):
Uh, and I, I love that.
You know, it's like I wantedyou know, I wanted like really,
really sweet melodies funneledthrough punk, and you can't
argue with that.

Brett (01:55:00):
No, it cuts through so incredibly well.
You can't argue.

Steve (01:55:03):
But I just I find the production, just the wrong side
of, slightly troubling at times.
Oh, that's interesting.

Brett (01:55:11):
I mean it's's very, it's got a smooth.
I I really like it.
I love the production.
I think uh if you.
If you want something gnarlier,listen to in utero or bleach,
and you'll get that vibe.
If you want something a bitmore hardcore, uh, but this is
yeah.
Obviously it becomes a hugeproblem for them because it just
blows up.
This album is released on the21st of 24th of september and

(01:55:32):
then by I think it's 11th or12th of january.
It's number one on thebillboard.
It takes three months, threeand a half months you know,
thriller michael jackson.
Established artists took threemonths to get to number one, so
it took two more weeks for anunknown band who'd sold 35 000
copies of their opening album toget to number one.

Dave (01:55:49):
That's how quickly it happened they needed to quickly
go away and press a few millionextra copies.

Brett (01:55:56):
That everything at the geffen uh pressing plant.
They couldn't produce any otheralbums that just churn out this
album.
That's a stop, stop, stop, stoppressing sonic youth albums.
We need more.
Never mind, we've got to get itout.
It was crazy, overwhelming.

Dave (01:56:09):
Too much, way too much our 50th episode has come down to
the final two songs teen spiritagainst territorial pissings.
Sorry, I said it again, didn't?
I just love hearing you say it.
I just, I didn't mean, I justlove to hear you say those words
as I said it, I I just I caughtmyself sounding like those

(01:56:31):
words.
As I said it, I caught myselfsounding like the policeman from
Alo Alo Territorial pissings,territorial pissings.

Steve (01:56:41):
I love it.
I know which way I'm voting.

Dave (01:56:44):
I'm voting with the spirit of punk that is, territorial
pissings, which you declaredearly on, is your favourite
thing on the album.
Territorial pissings on is yourfavourite thing on the album
Territorial.

Steve (01:56:53):
Pissings, I love it.

Dave (01:56:57):
I'm going Teen Spirit, which might be a bit obvious
because it's the catchy popslash rock anthem.

Steve (01:57:07):
Oh, I'm so desperate for our 50th episode to end with
Brett staying true to his punkroots.
And it's like did you desperatefor our 50th episode to end
with brett staying true to hispunk roots?
And it's like, did you listento the 50th episode of mcconnie
goal?
They somehow managed to chooseterritorial pissings as the
winner of never mind.
I'm so keen on this I I reallyhope this is the way this is
going, would it not be the most?
I know I don't usually lobby,but I don't usually lobby.

(01:57:29):
I don't know which way you'regoing, but but for once I'm
going to lobby a little bit.
Do you really want, in amongstall these podcasts that you can
tell what's coming, themainstream answer to be that we
got to our 50th episode and wedid a relatively obvious album
and the most screamingly obviousthing on it won.

(01:57:51):
Can you really live with that?

Brett (01:57:53):
yeah, I mean you're lobbying hard, but it is Smells
Like Teen Spirit.
Dave, you're voting for.
Smells Like Teen Spirit.
Have you voted?

Dave (01:57:58):
I am, yes, I have, yeah.
So you have got the decider,brett.

Brett (01:58:02):
I've got the decider, which I feel is fitting.

Dave (01:58:05):
I think it's fitting hang on, can so the most beautiful
beautiful song.

Steve (01:58:11):
Indigo girls covered it once as well.
Which is which is get together?
Come on yes yes, brother,everybody get together, try to
love one another right nowbeautiful, beautiful 60s anthem
of love and very hippie and it'sthe most punk rock thing that
ever happened to sing.
I mean, can you think ofanother time when a song opens

(01:58:35):
with someone else basicallytrolling uh another song by
singing a hideously out of tune,drunk style piss, take version
of it and then going into thesong itself?
That's the most punk rock thingever yeah I love it.
It's another great thing aboutpissings.

Brett (01:58:52):
Yeah, I think that's Chris doing the vocal on that
apparently.

Steve (01:58:54):
It is yeah At the start.

Nirvana (01:58:55):
yeah, come on people now Smile on your brother.

Brett (01:59:00):
Everybody get together, try to love one another right
now, and Dave tell me about.
So I like this.
You're both going differently,dave.

Dave (01:59:12):
I haven't got anything unfortunately, to add to what
we've already said about it.
So you've got the obvious stuff, like it's the soft, loud,
pixies dynamic.
It's iconic, insane.

Steve (01:59:23):
Of an album of catchy rock anthems.

Dave (01:59:27):
it's the most catchy by far on the album you know what
can you say about his teenspirit?

Steve (01:59:36):
that was the worst lobbying ever.

Brett (01:59:37):
How I think his lobbying is.
Do you know what it's so good?
It doesn't need lobbying.
That wasn't his argument, hejust failed to lobby.

Steve (01:59:44):
So if you were choosing on strength of lobbying alone,
this would be a walkover well,you lobbied and he, and he just
jobbed that's what's happenedyeah, but smells like teen
spirit is, um, an iconic song.

Brett (02:00:00):
It's probably the song of our generation and it still
rips through today.
It's so powerful when thatvocal comes in.
I mean it's it's the wholeother whole dynamic of what
nirvana is all about.
And it's against territorialpissings, you know, which is
opens up not even a single opensup the b side of the album.
Well, uh, 50 episodes in andwe're still debating great songs

(02:00:24):
, great albums.
It's been an absolute joy.
Thank you for everyone who'sever listened.
We love you for listening.
It's been great fun doing thisand I'm looking forward to the
next 50.
But my wife told me one thingbefore we started recording this
podcast that this song had towin and we both fucking love it
and we will both have very, veryfond memories of dancing
ourselves to the point ofexhaustion to it and like just

(02:00:48):
so engrossed in it as an intenseexperience.
And and all I can say is, daveis, you've got to find a way,
because territorial pissings isthe winner of mccartney and goal
it was always the winner,always the winner of mccartney
and goal.

Dave (02:01:06):
Our 50th episode, never mind by nir, is Territorial
Kissings.
Get that white horse yeah.

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