The Velvet Underground & Nico (self titled)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hello and welcome to McCartney and Goal, which is the
podcast that debates a greatalbum of popular music using a
sporting knockout format.
I'm David Hughes and I'm joinedby my fellow judges Brett.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
I am tired and I am weary.
I could sleep for a ruddythousand years.

Speaker 1 (00:29):
And I'm joined by Steve Sumner.
Hey, babe.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
That's very late 60s.
That's very cool.
You'd fit into the factory withthat as your opening gambit.

Speaker 1 (00:39):
Steve, you and I are enjoying the European sun.
Or we would be if it wasn'twinter and if we just hadn't had
two days of storm isha, uh,whereas, brett, you're still
enjoying the argentinian sun,sun, sun lovely lovely, I am
indeed, I mean steve steve,steve looks really happy there,

(00:59):
don't you that set of puns?
No, yeah, I think I think thatwas the puns rather than the
weather.

Speaker 2 (01:05):
Is that all of them.

Speaker 4 (01:06):
That's the puns.

Speaker 1 (01:10):
Whether you are listening to this on a Sunday
morning or some other timeduring the week.
Welcome, and we hope to be yourmirror to the Velvet
Underground and Nico, which wasthe debut studio album by the
Velvet Underground and Germansinger Nico, which was released
in March 1967.

Speaker 2 (01:26):
Solidly professional there.
You brought it together nicelyyeah that's better.
Steve's happier with that.

Speaker 4 (01:30):
He's happier I couldn't have been any, yes,
happier.
I couldn't have been any lesshappy.

Speaker 3 (01:36):
So admittedly yes, happier is probably fair that's
good.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
Things are looking up .

Speaker 1 (01:43):
Yeah, yeah, oh yeah okay, um, how do you feel about
this album?

Speaker 2 (01:49):
before we get straight into round one, I mean,
it's a, it's a cult classic.
How would you?

Speaker 1 (01:55):
introduce this album to somebody who is not familiar
with it?

Speaker 4 (01:59):
oh yeah, I would I would troll them by making them
listen to the first track,because they'll listen to the
first track and they'll go isn'tthat all noise and craziness?
And then they'll listen to thefirst track and be like, oh,
it's really nice.
And then they'll just descendinto a world of sadomasochism
and heroin and speed and justjunkies and drug deals and

(02:21):
weirdness and atonal craziness.
And they'll be like you trolledmeiness and they'll be like you
trolled me and I'll be like, no, literally all I did was play
you the first song on the albumthat trolled you on my behalf.

Speaker 1 (02:31):
Well done, that album that is a good intro.
Yeah to this album.
That is a good summary.
Well done, because I wasstruggling.

Speaker 2 (02:39):
So I'm glad steve stepped in there because I was
my mouth the gate trying tothink I don't know how you'd
sell this album.
It's cliche to call it a cultclassic, but it is the cool
album, isn't it?
It's the cool kid at the backof the bus wearing shades on the
school trip when he's been toldtwice not to and throwing a
paper ball at his feet backthere, can I stick?

Speaker 4 (03:01):
is it too early to stick the Brian Eno quote in,
because I think that's the bestintroduction never too early for
eno.
Never too early for never tooearly, it's never too early for
you know, I'll ask dave, lookwell.
So the?
The?
It's the point where this quoteis so famous that I had to look
up who it was attributed to andactually a lot of people just
said it's kind of just an urbanmyth, and lou reed himself said

(03:23):
it a few times anyway, but the?
The quote is essentially uh,you know, velvet, underground
and nico, nobody bought thatalbum but the, the sort of the
tell the 12 people that did, orwhatever.
Everybody formed a band.
Uh, and I love I love that.

Speaker 2 (03:38):
It's like you know everyone.
Are they the same 12 peoplethat formed a band after
watching the sex pistols gig?
Because that's the same thing,yeah, but there, yeah, yeah, the
sexism played manchester.
Wow, and it's you know it is.

Speaker 4 (03:50):
It is regardless of whether you like it or not, and
we'll get to that it is, forbetter or worse, regarded as one
of the most influential albumsever made.
Yeah, and, and if you care, I'msurprised in a way that it's
not, I think, perhaps bigger inin Brett's life, because if you
care about punk at all, I meanpunk.
This is not a punk album, don'tget me wrong.
Punk doesn't happen for a while, but punk absolutely would not

(04:14):
post-punk, any of it would notexist if this album hadn't
happened.
Because it was the summer oflove, for God's sake, and
everyone in San Francisco isgoing ooh, let's take LSD and
let our boobs hang out and talkabout sex and love and like
they're going.
No, we're in new york, we'redirty, we smell, we can't play,
we're going to make a very, veryloud, atonal, horrible noise

(04:34):
and we're going to sing aboutheroin and speed.
And in fact, we're going totake heroin, speed because we
don't trust your fuckingpsychedelics, you weird hippies,
and everyone hated it andeveryone hated them and it
didn't sell at all.

Speaker 2 (04:46):
For years now it's regarded years years and years
and years and they kept it upreally well for years.

Speaker 4 (04:52):
It wasn't yeah oh yeah, for years it's brilliant,
but now it's.
It is genuinely one of the mostseismic events in in rock
history, which is you know with.
Again, whether you like it ornot, that's kind of undeniable
yeah, I mean nothing.

Speaker 2 (05:05):
Some sums up the trope of the anti-hero in rock
and roll more than this albumlike oh yeah if you're going to
characterize the different partsof rock and roll and the
stories and the tropes, and thenthe anti-hero is definitely a
massive part of that and andpeople are attracted to music
vastly because of that and thisalbum it just characterises it
so purely 100% but there is alsoone of the things that doesn't

(05:28):
possibly get talked about enoughis there's also some absolutely
fantastic music here.

Speaker 4 (05:36):
You know, just completely brilliant and totally
unique and really off the walland you know, totally unique off
the wall.
And you know, totally uniqueoff the wall and sometimes just
bloody great songs which againjust gets forgotten in all the
mythology of it all.
Stop us, david, let's talksongs.

Speaker 1 (06:00):
That's a fulsome summary and introduction to this
album.
So well done, chaps, and let'sget into round one.
The first pairing in round oneis Sunday Morning, the opening
track on the album against I'llBe your Mirror, which is sung by
Nico.

Speaker 5 (06:23):
Sunday morning brings the dawning, it's just a
restless feeling by my side.
Early dawning and Sundaymorning, it's just the way.

Speaker 6 (06:57):
I be your mirror, reflect what you are.
In case you don't know, I bethe wind, the rain and the
sunset.

Speaker 1 (07:18):
Do you want to say something about the different
song styles on this album?
How would you describe orcategorise the different
variations on song styles?

Speaker 4 (07:32):
well, there's quite a mix, quite a mishmash of a few
different things, and one ofthem is sort of dirty in your
face, sort of almost garage rockLou, sort of Almost garage rock
, new York garage rock.
One of them is Sort of sonicexperimentation and one of them,

(07:56):
at the behest of A certain AndyWarhol, is pretty songs.
And there's two reasons forthese two songs, uh, one of
which is a german, shantus,who's learned some very
interestingly pronounced englishcalled nico, and the other is

(08:16):
that, uh, they were asked towrite a hit single, um, which
was sunday morning, which wasvery much the last thing that
that got recorded for the albumand was written for Nico Written
specifically for Nico to sing.

Speaker 3 (08:30):
And then he's like no , fuck it, I'm singing it, I'm
singing it, it sounds good.

Speaker 2 (08:35):
Well, lou Reed was a songwriter, wasn't he?
For Pickwick Records, that washis job.
He described himself as a poorman's Carole King I don't know
if they ever had any of his hitswith Pickwick Records, but he
was.
So he knew how to churn outsongs and that's how he met John
Cale, who was a Welsh classicalmusic student studying on a

(08:56):
grant in New York, and they met,I think, through recordings for
Pickwick Records.
And then, yeah, so Loued knewhow to turn out songs and, could
you know, knock something, yeahlou reed knew how to turn out
songs and kale knew how to beweird as fuck yeah, and that
that's.

Speaker 4 (09:14):
That's where that fulcrum of the two of them was
perfect, because I think he hewas able to push lou reed over
the edge and go.
No, no, this is great.
I'm just going to play somelike weird atonal viola on this
now yeah, um, you know because,because, uh, none of them had
done anything sort of out in thewild, apart from john kale who
was playing with with variousvery sort of influential
avant-garde uh groups which werelike proper 60s, like oh I'm

(09:40):
standing on stage putting abanana in my ear and screeching,
screeching with a banana in myear.
You know it's like what'shappening now.
You know, like proper, let'spush the boundaries of of good
taste and art and what'spossible on a stage, and all of
that stuff.

Speaker 1 (09:52):
And kale was right in the middle of all of that, yeah
, yeah so these, these two songsum opening round one sunday
morning and I'll be your mirror,are um, they're at the pretty
end of the spectrum.
These are very listenable radio, play pop songs.

Speaker 2 (10:11):
You'd like these, wouldn't you?
You'd definitely make acompilation.
I reckon you've put both ofthese in a compilation I haven't
put.

Speaker 1 (10:18):
I'll Be your Mirror on a compilation, but Sunday
Morning is the opening track onmy sunday morning playlist.

Speaker 2 (10:26):
In fact it's say what you see.

Speaker 1 (10:27):
Literal, I mean that it's called it's called sunday
morning comma making pancakesand it's what I put on on a
sunday morning when I get.

Speaker 2 (10:36):
If only the kings had done a song called making
pancakes, it'd be fuckingperfect.
You could put that next andthen it'd be done.
You don't need two songs.
That way, making pancakes,flipping them again, would be
the real who knows when we was.

Speaker 4 (10:50):
When did we last make pancakes?

Speaker 3 (10:52):
oh, I don't know when pancakes, pancakes, pancakes,
yeah yeah, that was a kick song,it was a bayside oh lovely,
yeah, so that's nice that youput on your wrist.

Speaker 2 (11:05):
So yeah, it's a very pretty song it's a very pretty
song.
It gets on your sunday morningI mean, it really does what it's
the ron seal of the velvetunderground back catalogue
because, it really does what itsays on the tin.
You can put it on the sundaymorning and it's perfect for
that kind of marzy liminal state.
You get up, you want yourcroissants, nice and toasted.

Speaker 1 (11:23):
You get your coffee brewed yeah, you, you say that,
but um, there are differenttypes of sunday morning aren't
there, and if you listen to thewhole of this album, you would
assume that.

Speaker 2 (11:33):
So you're saying your sunday morning starts with
heroin.
Is that what you're saying?

Speaker 1 (11:37):
no, you well you would assume that a song about
sunday morning on this albumwould be about uh coming would
be about being hungover andfeeling rough after a hard
Saturday night.
But it's not, is it?
It's a really pretty song,although.

Speaker 3 (11:51):
Of course it bloody is.

Speaker 1 (11:53):
Although the lyrics are not designed to be pretty
lyrics are they?

Speaker 4 (12:00):
Well, yeah, but it's blindingly.
I mean, that's.
What's cool about it is that itsounds like a nice.

Speaker 2 (12:04):
Sunday morning, if you listen to it.

Speaker 4 (12:06):
It's very much a hangover paranoia.
Sunday morning yes.

Speaker 2 (12:09):
Clever, isn't it Clever?

Speaker 1 (12:11):
Yeah, do you want to talk about the lyrics?
So the lyrics are aboutparanoia.

Speaker 2 (12:18):
There's paranoia references certainly to it.
Who said that you did I, Ididn't.
Who said that you did I didn't?
I never mentioned that, Arethey?
What are you?

Speaker 4 (12:23):
looking at.
You're making that up.
No, just because you'reparanoid doesn't mean they're
out to get you.
Yes, so I mean it's arguably itis about just a Sunday morning
until you get to watch out theworld's behind you and there's
always someone around you whowill call this nothing at all
and all this stuff and it's it'svery much a kind of you know,
watch out, the world's behindyou, there's always someone

(12:45):
around you.
You know it's like, hang on aminute um, but delivered so
beautifully so breezily youalmost don't notice it and also,
really, what's funny about itis that lou reed never really
sang like that before or after.
It's like the only time hedelivers that.
It's almost like a finger, youknow.
It's almost like flipping thebird at nico, like no, naturally
I'm going to sing this, butI'll sing it like you would have

(13:06):
sung it.
It's like in like it almostsounds like a feminine uh,
feminine vocal, which is likethe last thing you'd associate
with mr bob dylan influence newyork gutter punk.

Speaker 2 (13:17):
Lou reed it's like I mean, it's amazing.
This opens the album, doesn'tit?
And it's their first album, solike that's the introduction to
this band and this is he'ssetting out this, which he never
repeats again, really, no, it's, totally it's a terrible
opening for this band.

Speaker 1 (13:31):
It's brilliant yeah, it does stand alone on this
album.
Um, it sounds like somethingthat he would have on
transformer.

Speaker 4 (13:38):
He would have written for his solo record transformer
to be fair, it sounds likesomething that would happen on
on the velvet underground album,which is like two albums from
now, after white light, whiteheat, which is a really after
cale leaves and that that's fullof things like pale blue eyes
and stuff which is like reallyvery, very gentle and beautiful
and lilting, which actually hecould do, but it, it doesn't.
It doesn't uh, certainly itdoesn't foreground their

(14:01):
avant-garde noise not this album, definitely, you know, you know
it's it as dave says.

Speaker 2 (14:07):
It is a real setup.
It's like hey, are you sayingearlier their avant-garde noise?
Not this album.
Definitely, as Dave says, it isa real setup.
It's like hey, or you sayingearlier.

Speaker 1 (14:13):
You said it like trolls you, yeah, yeah,
absolutely.
You buy this album, you putthis on, you listen to Sunday
Morning and you think, oh, I'mgoing to make me some pancakes.

Speaker 2 (14:19):
I'm going to make me some pancakes.
This is lovely.

Speaker 1 (14:23):
And then by the time you're flipping the map, what's
that?
What's that about?

Speaker 2 (14:27):
yeah, you're in some like psychedelic nightmare you
come back in, the pancakes areready and he's there halfway
through Heroin and you're likewhat the fuck's going on here?
What's gone wrong anyway?

Speaker 4 (14:37):
I think it.
I think it's going to be veryclear that Sunday morning is
going to go through, becauseit's clearly the stronger song,
surely?
I mean, I'm certainly votingfor Sunday morning here.

Speaker 1 (14:47):
It's the only one on my playlist, Steve, so I'm with
you.

Speaker 4 (14:51):
Well, I guess that's got to be a 3-0.
So I'll Be your Mirror is verymuch, I think, the least of the
three Nico lead vocalcontributions.
It's still a nice song.
Apparently it came from aphrase nico said to to lou reed
and a lot of these things camefrom factory stuff that was
happening around them, and sheactually said lou lou, I will be

(15:13):
your mirror, uh, in a kind oflike I'll represent, I'll
represent your uh art on stagefor you.
And he sort of took that titleand ran with it like he did with
a lot of stuff and, um, thatnice.
But it's clearly the lesser ofthe three Nico contributions for
me.

Speaker 1 (15:30):
Is that because?

Speaker 2 (15:32):
No, I love it.
It's really nice.
I do love it.
It's really sweet and pretty.
I mean, warhol loved it as well.
He wanted it scratched into theouter groove, the I'll be your
mirror line, just that kind ofresolve.

Speaker 4 (15:41):
It's a favourite of all of them, it's a favourite of
Nico, it's a favourite ofWarhol and it's a favourite of
Lou Reed.
But I think it's one of theweakest tracks on the album.
So you know there's noaccounting for these things.
There we go.

Speaker 1 (15:52):
Okay, there we go.

Speaker 3 (15:54):
So Sunday.

Speaker 1 (15:54):
Morning goes through 3-0 to the next round?

Speaker 2 (15:58):
Of course it does.

Speaker 1 (16:00):
And our second pairing in the first round is
two Nico songs.

Speaker 6 (16:10):
Femme Fatale against All Tomorrow's Parties.
I realise.
Just look into herthoughts-coloured eyes.
She built you up to just putyou down.
What a clown, cause everybodyknows the things she does to

(16:30):
please.
She's just a little tease.
See the way she walks, hear theway she talks.
And what cost can we share thepoker?

(16:56):
Wear To all tomorrow's partiesA hand-me-down kiss from who
knows where To all tomorrow'sparties, and where will she go?

Speaker 2 (17:29):
Okay, so well.
Nico was an actress and model.
She'd been modelling since themid-50s.
She appeared in La Dolce Vita.
She'd been kind of hanging outwith Brian Jones of the Rolling
Stones, and then she runs intothis very glamorous world of
Andy Warhol and the Factory andhe sees her and he puts her
together with this band he ismanaging called Velvet

(17:54):
Underground, against theirbetter judgment and against
their wishes.
Absolutely.
They did not want to do it.
And she had these really kindof long rituals of getting ready
for gigs and shows.
She'd light candles and it justdrove Lou Reed mad.
So there was very much.

Speaker 4 (18:13):
I think the thing is that we certainly that.

Speaker 2 (18:15):
I didn't Sorry but have I talked?
No, no, no, no, go for it.
It's beautiful, I love it it.

Speaker 4 (18:31):
So the thing that I sort of had to re-appreciate was
that obviously nico is notquite a footnote but sort of
fades away a little bitstory-wise after this to an
extent, and the velvetunderground go on to be one of
the most influential bands everand lou reed goes on to have a
very big career and so does johnkale to an extent and all these
things.
But at the time the veryunderground were literally
nobody at all and and twomembers of uh, the factory went

(18:53):
to see them play this gig and Ithink I think they were playing
black angel's death song andthey played it so loud and so
awfully that the venue saidplease don't ever play that song
again.
So they played it again twiceas loud and and were banned from
the gig.
But but the the story goes,there were two members of the
factory sort of crowd there whowent to andy warhol and said
you're gonna like this lot andand so he sort of said, well,

(19:15):
I'm gonna, I'm gonna literally Ithink the word is sponsor them,
whatever the hell that'ssupposed to mean, and and pay
for all the recordings of themso they can make an album.
So they, they just they werenobody, so they couldn't turn it
down.
And the thing again that I'dforgotten is that he was
everybody.
I mean, he was absolutely huge,at the height of his powers.
Pop art was like a thing, hewas being taken seriously and

(19:37):
and so there was this.
They couldn't say no to any ofit because, as much as they were
like fuckers when it came tolike looking wildly
anti-commercial, they did wantto make a record and they did
want to sell it to people.
And if you know, you don't sayno to Andy Warhol.
And I'd forgotten all of thatstuff at that point.

Speaker 1 (19:54):
That's a good point.
Yeah, go on.
Well, that's a good point thatthey didn't have a record deal
at the time and Andy Warhol, asyou say, steve, was very famous,
um, and he paid for them to gointo the studio and make this
record, and it was only afterthey'd made the record that it

(20:15):
was.
Then they then, or andy warhol,um, and his people, started
touting it around recordcompanies and I think it got
rejected by three or four recordcompanies before everyone had
to go.

Speaker 2 (20:26):
They got rejected everyone and then they had to go
to verve, which was a jazzlabel.
That's how bad it got that togo to a jazz label to try and
get signed and then I thinkverve said we need a single.

Speaker 1 (20:35):
So that's why they wrote sunday morning they went
back and wrote sunday morning,but it was.
Um.
I mean, they were interestedbecause andy warhol was
associated with it, and I Ithink an example of that is that
the front cover, which we maytalk about a little bit later on
, had this, uh, this idea thatit was a banana, but there was

(20:56):
like a peel back um yeah, aconcept yeah there was a sticker
that you could peel back thebanana, and there was a reveal
underneath.

Speaker 2 (21:06):
It's a yellow banana, and then they revealed a pink
banana underneath.

Speaker 1 (21:10):
But to do that on an LP in the 60s.
I mean that was expensive to doand it delayed the album
because they had to findsomewhere.

Speaker 2 (21:16):
Delayed it for ages, didn't it?

Speaker 1 (21:18):
that could specially do this.
But the only reason the recordcompany was prepared to do this
and spend the money was becausethey thought that people might
buy it because andy warhol wasinvolved with it.

Speaker 4 (21:28):
So it was a big.
Yeah, you're right, it was abig deal that a big deal and
amazing.

Speaker 1 (21:33):
Andy warhol was was floating around and associated
with this and it yeah, it'samazing.

Speaker 2 (21:39):
I mean, this album was released in 1967, but march
1967 and it was delayed becauseof andy warhol wanted to put a
special peel-off sticker on thefront of it.
I mean, I mean, how mad andrevolutionary is this album
anyway for 1967 to think itcould have come out in the sixth
, the summer of 66, is insane.
You know, revolvers maybe justabout to come out and this is

(22:01):
already they go.
Ah, fuck you, it's incredibleyou know, um.

Speaker 1 (22:06):
I think it's a really good point how important he was
to the birth of um, of thisalbum and the velvet underground
well, they wouldn't have hadone, though without that's much
it's made.

Speaker 2 (22:16):
What is amazing is, with that sponsorship, if, with
them being the darlings of newyork being in the factory shows,
being the central part of theexploding, inevitable show which
she put on, which was this kindof this kind of multimedia
onslaught of light shows anddancers and Nico fronting the
band and all of this glamorous,credible glamor, that it didn't

(22:39):
really take off, it wasn'tmassively successful, even with
all of that sponsorship.
It's extraordinary.
It's like you, this is.
You think, oh, this is theseguys, they look great, they've
got andy warhol sponsoring.
This is gonna be massive.
Nothing, it's just way tooahead of its time way too ahead
totally and and and badly timedin in terms of the summer of
love.

Speaker 4 (23:00):
It's like the least summer of love ever.
Yeah, I mean we've never comeout.
If it had come out in 68, whensuddenly it was like Beggar's
Banquet and the White Album andlet's all go back to acoustic,
it might have had a better ride.

Speaker 2 (23:11):
But the Summer of.

Speaker 4 (23:12):
Love.
You're joking, aren't you?
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (23:14):
this is like a 19.
This should have been 71, thisalbum, shouldn't it, it would
have sold by the bucket loads,but people just weren't ready
for it.
Nowhere close, but it's reallyinteresting.
You think about the timing ofthis and and the way we like to
conceptualize times, like welike to think of the 60s as
hippies and the summer of loveand that was it.
But obviously the reality isfar more opaque, far more
complicated, and this shows itlike we live through the 90s

(23:36):
yeah and if you look, if kidslook back at the 90s now they
think, oh, brit pop or raveculture.
And we can tell you, no, it wasreally crap.
Chart bands stinking up theairwaves, stinking up every most
.

Speaker 4 (23:46):
Yeah, exactly yeah, and it just wasn't.
Brick pop lasted what?
Two, two years really?
Yeah, and it's same in summerof love.
George harrison used to say thesummer of love was like, it was
over in like two, three months,that's like two three months of
the whole of the 60s it's likeit literally was that summer and
then the whole you know crashedon the shore at Woodstock and
done.

Speaker 3 (24:06):
Yeah, it's crazy, but do you know what I mean?
It's like you know, yeah, it'scrazy, it's crazy.

Speaker 1 (24:10):
So let's come back to Nico.

Speaker 2 (24:13):
Yes, sorry, dave, we've digressed.

Speaker 1 (24:15):
Well, we have, but maybe appropriately.
So Nico was actually, oh, in avery entertaining way.
We digress very entertainingway.
I mean brilliantly, brilliantly.

Speaker 2 (24:25):
Award winning I would say if there were awards to be
given for this shit.

Speaker 1 (24:33):
So Nico was born in Germany and had a fairly nomadic
journey across Europe, throughFrance and ended up in America.

Speaker 2 (24:40):
It sounds like a plot line from Sound of Music.

Speaker 1 (24:43):
Well, it's a sort of rambling journey which reflects
our conversation on these twosongs, Femme Fatale and All
Tomorrow's Parties.
We've taken a sort of ramblingroute around the houses but come
back to this

Speaker 5 (24:56):
pairing.

Speaker 1 (24:57):
Femme Fatale against All Tomorrow's Parties.
What do we think of the actualsongs?

Speaker 4 (25:03):
For me it's obvious.

Speaker 1 (25:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:05):
Go on then.
What is obvious?
Songs, uh, for me.
For me it's obvious.
Yeah, well, go on then.
What is what is obvious?
Because me the obvious thingthis is interesting, it's
obvious.
For me it's femme fatale.
What's it obvious?

Speaker 4 (25:12):
for you, that's uh, ultimized parties by an absolute
mile.

Speaker 1 (25:15):
We never disappoint, do we?
Why, femme fatale?
And then I'll come to see it'sjust, this is an absolute pop
classic.

Speaker 2 (25:22):
I mean, it's just.
It's just, it slinks in, it'sbeautiful, it's got this like
she couldn't sound more German,more Nico, more kind of
aristocratic.
German than she does.
It's just this glassy voice.
I think someone describes hervoice as that of a cello waking
up in the morning it's just oh,that's.

Speaker 4 (25:41):
I heard that yeah it's good, isn't it?
I mean that's so do you knowwho, um who, that song is about?

Speaker 2 (25:49):
it's about I?
I know, I don't know the storyI believe.
I believe andy warhol wanted itto be about something called
edie sedgwick.
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (25:57):
Yes, so he said but well, the the story is not as
interesting as other songswritten about her, because edie
sedgwick was like the ultimateit girl.
She was like the original itgirl.
And she was big in AndyWarhol's set and Andy Warhol was
very much kind of behind thescenes going.
Why don't you write a songabout?

Speaker 3 (26:17):
her.

Speaker 4 (26:17):
Why don't you write a song about him?
And that was happening a lot,apparently.
But the thing is, edie Sedgwickwas also the inspiration for
Check this Out by Bob Dylan.
Just Like a Woman Leopard Skin,pillbox Hat Fourth Time Around
and Like a Rolling Stone.
All about Edie.

Speaker 1 (26:35):
Sedgwick.
Really Wow, why did she havesuch an influence on Bob Dylan?

Speaker 4 (26:41):
She was incredibly beautiful and of the moment and
was in films and had a sort ofmary quant style bob haircut and
people.
It was very elfin and, just youknow, was a big star and people
absolutely fell at her feet.

Speaker 1 (26:54):
It sounds like he was either obsessed by her or
stalking her if if she wasn't, Imean that's that's.

Speaker 2 (27:01):
That's so on bob dylan, though.
To be obsessed by someone andthen write lots of songs, I know
, and then probably claimthey're not written about her.

Speaker 4 (27:07):
No, they're just definitely not about her.
They're written about a Chekhovplay.
I saw oh, edith Sedgwick, I hadsex with you and now I'm sad.
No, it's not about her, neverabout her.

Speaker 2 (27:17):
No, no, no, no okay never, that's not my style man,
it's just not my style.

Speaker 1 (27:22):
So you like Femme Fatale because it's a pop
classic, Brett.

Speaker 2 (27:26):
It's a pop classic.
Her vocal is just brilliant.
Yeah, I love it.
Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 4 (27:30):
Well, she apparently was very, very miffed with them
for those backing vocals, thosebrilliantly deadpan backing
vocals.
She's a femme fatale.
Because she was going no, it ispronounced femme, fem, fam
fatah.
Why are you singing fem fatal?
It's fun.
She was really, really annoyed.
They're like now we're gonnasing it how we want.

(27:51):
That's what it says on the page.
Shut up and brilliant she's afemme fatah I love you.

Speaker 2 (27:56):
The back of the call and response is just brilliant
so good and steve, steve why isthis a shoe-in for all
tomorrow's parties?

Speaker 1 (28:03):
for you.

Speaker 4 (28:05):
Because it sounds like the Velvet Underground
being Fairport Convention.
It sounds so FairportConvention.
It sounds like Nico is frontingFairport.
It has this beautiful Englishfolky lilt to it and it makes me

(28:27):
genuinely sad for the personI'm listening about.
It's like the flip side of likea rolling stone.
Like a rolling stones arereally biting.
How will you feel when you'vebeen, when, when no one fancies
you anymore and you're shit?
Um, whereas this is like, ohman, what's she gonna wear at
all the parties in the future?
Because you know, I mean,obviously it's a metaphor rather
than literal, but it's likeit's.
It just makes me really sad andand it's just that I love that
lilting, weirdly englishsounding melody and I love the

(28:50):
way she sings it.
I mean, I I find her vocalquite hard to take seriously
because of the incrediblystrange pronunciation in general
, but I find it really moving onall tomorrow's parties.
So it's not even even indiscussion for me.
It's like my in my top threethings on this album and I'm not
an eco fan well, I mean I, Iyeah, it's interesting.

Speaker 2 (29:11):
I think I'd like her three vocals.
I think they give it some shapeand some sparkle and some yeah
and some difference.
But I think three is theperfect amount for her to appear
on this album, otherwise itwould dominate too much.
I think it's just about.
It's the right amount ofstardust without overwhelming.

Speaker 1 (29:27):
So it is interesting that the contribution she makes
do you think that um any ofthese nico songs wouldn't have
been better if lou reed had sungthem like?
Do you?
Do you wish that?
Maybe lou re Reed had sung allof them, not these two.

Speaker 4 (29:51):
I think the subject matter for these two really
suits her, I think SundayMorning.
I'm glad he did it, it wouldhave worked.
You can hear that it waswritten for her, but I think
that paranoid style of lyricsuits him better, whereas I
think these stories about a sadwoman are best sung by this

(30:11):
icicle queen quite sad lookingwoman.
I think it just works.
Also, shout out to John Cale'samazing droning piano on
Altamira's Parties, which isagain something Altamira's
Parties, which is againsomething Altamira's Parties.
Yeah, His piano that neverchanges.
This rolling, drone-like pianoin the background is so great.

(30:36):
So great.

Speaker 2 (30:37):
Yeah, he does a lot of great stuff, doesn't he?
Multi-instrumentalist, I mean,he just adds the whole
flavouring for the whole band,doesn't he?
It really does Incredible stuffyeah.
But, they're both, but him andhe and Lou Reed both love drones
like drones in music, and Ithink Mo Tucker, the drummer as
well, was very much into certaintypes of.
Oh.

Speaker 4 (30:56):
I love a drone.
I love a drone.

Speaker 2 (30:57):
We love to drone on, don't we?
So it's perfect for us.
That's why.

Speaker 1 (31:01):
I like you so we've got a tied pairing, one each for
Femme Fatale and All Tomorrow'sParties, and I've got the
deciding vote yeah, it'sobviously obviously All
Tomorrow's Parties.

Speaker 5 (31:14):
It's it's Moody, it's got that folky.

Speaker 4 (31:18):
Lovely lilt to it.
It's got Cage's piano.
It's about Sedgwick Femme.

Speaker 2 (31:24):
Fatale would sit really nicely on that playlist
you've got with Sunday Morning,that's it that's all he can come
up with.

Speaker 4 (31:29):
I've literally just listed four good reasons, and
he's saying it would go well ona playlist.

Speaker 2 (31:33):
Well, he needs a third track because he's got
Sunday Morning Making Pancakesby the Kinks.
Now he needs a third track,just in case he wants to put a
bit of honey on them orsomething that's true.

Speaker 1 (31:42):
Yeah, um come on of course it's going to be all
tomorrow's parties of course itis
so you've got all tomorrow'sparties is like one of the uh
psychedelic, uh drone tracks,isn't it?
But it's sung by nico, so theothers on the album were all
sung by lou reed, and for me itwould be a much better.

(32:03):
It, reed, and for me it wouldbe a much better.
It's a great song.
I think it would be a muchbetter song if Lou Reed took the
vocals on this as well.
That said, I do much prefer itto Femme Fatale, so it wasn't
really that close for me, I'mafraid, brett.

Speaker 4 (32:19):
Can I take you up on your terminology though, Because
I think that?
Yeah, take him up on it,because he's not voting for my
song as glad as I am that youvoted for that and you can't go
back on it now if I offend you.

Speaker 2 (32:28):
No, Dave, you can.
You can always go back.
He's very offensive sometimes.
He really can't rescind thatvote.

Speaker 4 (32:37):
I'm not sure about using the term psychedelic for
anything here.
I know what you mean, but theyhated psychedelia.
They hated psychedelic drugswhat did they hate?

Speaker 2 (32:48):
they probably hated guitars, songs, recording
processes.

Speaker 4 (32:52):
German singers foisted upon them everything you
know, but it's I don't know.
I think it's lots of things.

Speaker 1 (33:01):
I take your point.
What I would say to them isthey don't get to label their
music.
We do, and given what wascoming out in the 60s with the
sort of Pink Floyd, Piper at theGates of Dawn style, long
rambling psychedelic, Well, callit what you will, but like

(33:24):
heavy guitar, almostimprovisation.

Speaker 4 (33:33):
It's of that ilk and therefore I I think we should
dig Lou Reed up and say fuck you, Lou Reed, you don't get to
categorise your music.
50-year-old men, middle-agedBritish men, on podcasts which
you haven't even heard of,because we're not 50 yet.
50-ish, late 40s, mid to late40s, mid 40s.

Speaker 5 (33:48):
Early 40s Men in their early 40s Looking good.

Speaker 4 (33:51):
Could be.
We'll categorise your music onpodcasts.
That's what matters.

Speaker 1 (33:57):
Fuck you, Lou Reed, you don't get to decide.
Fuck you.

Speaker 2 (33:59):
Lou Reed, yeah, yeah that's good, we've sorted that
out.
It's just a perfect day it'staking a turn.
It's taking a dark turn, davemove yourself, dave, is
channeling his his velvetunderground character okay, I
think I suppose what, what?
what he would argue is becausepsychodeal is lumped in with

(34:21):
this kind of day glow, lsdtrippiness which has got this
real technicolor vibe to it.
They are like the mostmonochrome wearing dark glasses
beatnik band you can everimagine.
I think they're far more.
They would consider themselvesfar more influenced by literary
influences and the avant-gardebeat poetry is very much, so all
of that, so they would theywould reject this kind of shiny

(34:43):
sergeant peppersy uh yes,colorful technicolor psychedelia
.

Speaker 4 (34:47):
Yeah, this yeah I think that's really important as
well, because psychedeliclyrics so for example, something
like lucy in the sky withdiamond that's a diamond is a
great example of what peoplewould categorize as psychedelic
lyrics.
And lou reed's whole thing wasbeat.

Speaker 5 (34:59):
Poetry bakowski um delmore schwartz was his guy,
wasn't he Gritty gritty?

Speaker 2 (35:03):
part of life.

Speaker 4 (35:04):
yeah, Gritty, like straight up.
This is what I saw on thestreet today there's a homeless
dude, there's a heroin needle,there's some disgusting litter.
This is really smelly, you know.
You stink, I stink, you know.
And that, whereas psychedeliawas much more surreal, and
flowers and weirdness, okay well, it might be me.

Speaker 1 (35:26):
It probably is me um what how would you describe?
Is this like hair metal?

Speaker 4 (35:30):
all over again.

Speaker 1 (35:30):
You want me to explain what hair metal is I'm
going down a hair metalcul-de-sac again.
Um, how would you describe thenthe uh, the kind of late 60s
heavy guitar rock?
Um, like weirdness garage rockno, but like you know, the um,
like uh, interstellar overdrive,something like that, which is

(35:52):
which is the early pink floydkind of almost improvisation, it
goes discordant, they just playon and it's about eight minutes
long and and I'm trying tothink of other examples, but
that kind of stuff that you geton this album as well, how would
you, how would you label that?

Speaker 4 (36:10):
I, I'm, I'm mostly just giving you shit.
Your point stands.
I mean, yes, I think floyd getlabeled as psychedelic.
I don't think they would havelabeled themselves particularly
psychedelic, but they were.
But again, the thing is, if youlisten, sound wise, your points
stands.
But if you listen to some ofthat floyd stuff whatever lyrics
there are are definitely notbakowski style street poetry

(36:31):
about.
You know the specifics of a guydoing a heroin deal.
They're like oh, set thecontrols for the heart of the
sun.
Oh, you know, it's like that.
So that's psychedelic where thevelvets aren't.
And also even the fashion.
If you look at the pictures,we're talking about sid barrett
taking lsd, so you got the drugs.
That's psychedelic where thevelvets aren't.
And also even the fashion.
If you look at the pictures,we're talking about Sid Barrett
taking LSD, so you've got thedrugs.
That's psychedelic, theinfluence of those drugs.
And also they're wearing floralshirts and frilly things,

(36:53):
whereas the velvets are wearingleather and dark glasses and
taking speed and heroin, whichis like the least psychedelic
thing ever.
So your point does stand aboutsome of the sonics, but
everything else ie the fashionand the lyrics and the rest of
the aesthetic and how they lookis is totally anti-psychedelic.
But I take your point on the onthe noise if that's one of the

(37:15):
best.

Speaker 1 (37:15):
Well, that's one of the best answers I've ever given
on the car and if, um, if, ifwe are, if it's not just me if
we, if people generally, arelabelling this, that kind of
sonic as psychedelic, then maybewe should relabel it as like
experimental rock or something,because yeah, I'd say it's

(37:37):
garage rock.

Speaker 3 (37:37):
It's garage rock with experimental elements doesn't
make me right, but that's what Iwould call it yeah okay, yeah
go on brett what I want.

Speaker 2 (37:48):
Actually, if I was going to have a go at this,
let's categorize everything.
I'd just say it's f on guardrock, isn't it?
It's it's totally, because itdoes have lashings of everything
and they you know, the showsthey were involved in, like the
factory shows, were full ofloads of light shows and things
like which, again, is somethingthat that is true, which is very
Pink Floyd and very psychedelic.
But you know, again, they're notcontrolling that, they're just

(38:10):
shoved in because they're likethis is an opportunity, let's
play with Andy Warhol.
And that's the reason why theystarted wearing sunglasses all
the time on stage and look sofucking cool.
It's because, literally, thelights were so bright, they
bright, they had to wearsunglasses.
So that's great.
You know, that's where thelegend comes from.
Just something so practical.
Yeah, just because they had todo it.
So it's interesting.

(38:30):
Yeah, I'd say.
I'd say they wouldn't describethemselves, they wouldn't want
to associate, they'd associatethe word psychedelic with summer
of love, which is could not be.

Speaker 1 (38:37):
I like that label avant-garde, I think, for the
rest of this episode I'm gonnagoing to change my label to
Avant Garde Rock AGR.
We call it AGR, AGR.

Speaker 2 (38:49):
M-O-R, A-O-R and A-V-R.

Speaker 4 (38:52):
Also, there's a sunglasses lesson for us all
here, kids, because we allaccuse rock stars of being dicks
and wearing sunglasses all thetime.
But now you know, we know thatBono latterly, we found out that
Bono wears them because he'sgot macular degeneration in his
eyes and the sun upsets him.
And we know that what's?
The chap from ELO called JeffLynn?
We know that Jeff Lynn wearsthem Brett's put some on now.

Speaker 2 (39:12):
Only pretentious wankers do it.
Jeff, no, no, jeff Lynn wearsthem because he's shy, and now
we know that the Velvet's worethem, so let's not judge rock
stars for their sartorialsunglasses and I'm wearing them
now because I'm in the summer inSouth America like some bastard
that's escaped the winter.

Speaker 4 (39:29):
He's flexing again.

Speaker 2 (39:30):
Did I mention it?
Did I mention?
No, I'm sorry.

Speaker 4 (39:33):
Yes, you did.
We are here in Storm, whateverit's called.
Right, we're here in England inthe dark between two two count
them named storms and you're infucking Buenos Aires.

Speaker 3 (39:45):
I've put my normal specs back on and continue to
mention it.

Speaker 4 (39:49):
Thank you, Roy.

Speaker 2 (39:50):
Crowbarred that in.
We did get talking aboutsunglasses.
Dave, bring us back.

Speaker 1 (39:56):
We're at the end of round one, and the end of round
one is Are we Jeez I?

Speaker 2 (40:00):
thought this was going to be a quick one.

Speaker 1 (40:02):
We are, and the last pairing in the end of round one
takes a dark turn.
It's the Black Angel Death Songagainst European Sun.

Speaker 5 (40:21):
Come again, choose to go.
And if epiphanies, terrorreduced you To shame, have your
head bobbed and weaved, choose aside To be on.
And if the stone glances on, ohthese are the last two tracks

(41:04):
on the album.

Speaker 2 (41:05):
This is where they get, as this is.
I mean, if we're talking aboutavant-garde rock, this is where
they get, as I mean, if we'retalking call them avant-garde
rock, this is where they getvery avant-garde.

Speaker 4 (41:10):
So we've started.
You have to really put the workin.
You have to want to listen tothis.

Speaker 2 (41:13):
Oh, this is like, yeah, you finish it, you go oh,
wow, I've done most of it now,haven't I?

Speaker 4 (41:24):
I'll listen to the whole thing.

Speaker 1 (41:25):
We've kind of completed our journey here from
sunday morning, opening thealbum as light and fluffy as it
gets to finishing on the blackangel death song and european
sun, which are as avant-garderock as it gets oh, totally.

Speaker 2 (41:41):
I mean european sun starts off, kind of listenable
for the first minute and thenit's just like, ah, fuck you.
I mean you can just hear themgoing.
Yeah, let's fucking go for iton this one.
They just like making as almostimpenetrable as possible.

Speaker 4 (41:54):
I think we missed the trick back in the day because
back back in the day what weused to do was, uh, put various
things on the on the jukebox.
We talked about this before andobviously, obviously, one of
the things we used to do was putheroin on the jukebox in the
pub and sit in the corner goinghee, hee, hee.
You know, when the hideousviola part came in the middle,

(42:14):
obviously we missed the trick.
If we'd known European Sunbetter, we would have put
European Sun on, or Sister Rafethe next time, all 16 minutes of
it but you know, we didn't know.

Speaker 2 (42:26):
It's not bad.
I thing about those decisionson the jukebox is you would try
and choose stuff to get yourmoney's worth.

Speaker 3 (42:31):
I remember I used to put Riders on the Storm on a
lock to 7 minutes.

Speaker 2 (42:36):
Well, we put Freebird and.

Speaker 4 (42:37):
Riders on the Storm on to get our money's worth, and
then the one with the Nirvanasecret hidden track on it to
piss people off and confusepeople with the silence, and
then Heroin was just to upsetpeople which it did.

Speaker 2 (42:50):
It's a good way to spend 50p back in the 90s.

Speaker 4 (42:52):
It is we didn't have the internet, we had to do these
type of things you got to enjoythe song, which we did actually
enjoy, and enjoy watchingpeople's faces as they got more
and more irritated because theycouldn't listen to Phil Collins.
Absolutely brilliant.

Speaker 2 (43:10):
Double win, double whammy, yeah yeah, so it's a
tricky one.
Um, I'm gonna vote for aeuropean son just because it's
so utterly obnoxious and it'sjust a black angel's death song.

Speaker 4 (43:22):
Because I can't.
I can't cope with no, I couldn,I couldn't listen to it again.

Speaker 2 (43:27):
I can vote for it, but I couldn't listen to a
European sign again.
I can get about four minutes inand I'm like, oh, for fuck's
sake, dave, what are you votingfor?

Speaker 4 (43:36):
They've both got a horrible noise on them.
One's got the noise of likeit's like opening the world's
largest Pepsi.

Speaker 2 (43:44):
Yeah, yeah, Like shh.

Speaker 4 (43:50):
And then the other one.
Isn't it blowing in the mic, Ithink?

Speaker 2 (43:51):
I think that's I think that's black europe, black
angel, death song and then, andthen, and then european sun.

Speaker 4 (43:56):
At one point there's an enormous smash and it turns
out that that's john kalethrowing a chair on a pile of
plates.
It's like, of course it is.

Speaker 1 (44:03):
I mean, obviously, what you're voting for slim
pickings around here.
I'm with you, steve.
This is a clear one for me.
Black Angel Death Song Right,so that concludes round one.
Black Angel Death Song goesthrough to one.
Yes, and we're into round twoand, as planned, we have the top

(44:23):
of round two loaded with thoseproto-punk, uh lou reed songs
and the bottom of round twoloaded with avant-garde rock.
So, um, that said, at the topof round two we have sunday
morning up against run, run, run.

Speaker 5 (44:42):
And I'm falling.

Speaker 3 (44:50):
I've got a feeling I don't want to know.

Speaker 5 (45:00):
Early dawn.
See that bear Said on the day Isaw my soul Must be saved.
Gonna, take a walk Down UnionSquare.
You never know.
I said on stage I saw my soulmust be saved.
Gonna, take a walk down UnionSquare.
You never know, we're gonnafind there.

(45:22):
You gotta run, run, run, run,run.
Take the jacket too.
Run, run, run, run, run.
Jim's a dead for you.
Hey, what you do.

Speaker 4 (45:32):
Easy Sunday morning.

Speaker 2 (45:33):
Yeah, I mean Run, run , run is kind of like their
attempt at a single really.
I mean it's not as good as Chasand Dave's Run Rabbit Run, but
it is good.

Speaker 4 (45:44):
What is?

Speaker 2 (45:45):
Nothing.

Speaker 1 (45:47):
Doesn't it sound very dylan-esque?

Speaker 2 (45:50):
yeah it does.
Yeah, it's got.
It's a peak restaurant.
It's running through the citylooking for drugs, drug
characters and all that.
Yeah, um, it's, yeah, it'sprobably this album it sounds
like a lot of 60s bands yeah, itdoes it.
This, this they used to be in aband called uh.
They were called first theprimitives, then the warlocks,
and this, this kind of remindthis I could imagine being

(46:13):
released by the warlocks, asthey previously were, but it's
it's less, possibly, it's lessvelvet, underground maybe, than
some of the other songs.

Speaker 4 (46:20):
Um, yeah, apart from the lyric which is, I think,
suffers because it would be.
You know, I've been talkingabout gypsy Death, which is like
a death from an overdose andall this stuff, and it's like it
would be shocking in itsboundary, pushing subject matter
, if we hadn't already had I'mWaiting for the man.
So it suffers lyrically incomparison to something that's

(46:43):
already happened, which is I'mWaiting for the man, and it
suffers musically in sounding abit conventionally like an
attempt or heroin, yeah otherother, uh, no, no, I mean
musically, sort of sounds like alot of the

Speaker 2 (46:55):
60s bands, which is which is not what the velma
underground are about well, andpossibly the fact this, this was
like recorded in four days,wasn't it?
So production isn't going to be.
I mean the sound.
This record is amazing, givenit probably wasn't spent a lot
of money I think it was $3,000spent on the recording of it, so
Run Run Run could probably be alot better if it was recorded
better.

Speaker 4 (47:13):
Well, you saved the production.
So, very briefly, andy Warholis credited as the producer, do
you?
Know what he did in hisproducing role.

Speaker 1 (47:22):
Nothing apart from insist that there was a peel off
sticker on the.

Speaker 2 (47:27):
That.

Speaker 4 (47:27):
He paid for the sessions and he paid for it.
That's even more important.
That's how he got that credit,that's it.

Speaker 1 (47:36):
Banana paid for the sessions.
Who is the producer, then, onthis album?

Speaker 4 (47:41):
Do you know what?
No one ever talks about it.
I assume that it's just.
A producer is a very nebuloussort of role that isn't very
well defined it's whoever's sortof in charge of the operation
and can be anything from super,super hands-on to super, super
hands-off.
So arguably he's a producer toan extent, in that he sort of
gave him ideas for songs and putsomeone in and and drove the
aesthetic.
But really I guess you knowit's an engineer and some people

(48:05):
in a room just making the songsand arguably he probably was
the producer.
You know you, you it's, you canmake an album musical director.
Maybe we'll call him the musicaldirector yeah, but it's like I
said last time, I call him, yeah, okay, yeah, because he on.

Speaker 1 (48:21):
He insisted.
Nico was on it, didn't he?
And he uh.
Sunday morning he said why, whydon't you write a song about
paranoia?
And that was it.
And then it lou right reedwrote a song about paranoia and
what that was to him, and itcame out on sunday morning.

Speaker 4 (48:35):
But apart from that, you're right, he wasn't fiddling
with the controls in the sameway that george martin was no
but you can, you can have, youcan have producers that very,
you know, very backseaty, like,like the difference between on
our previous episode obviouslywe were talking about Nirvana's
Nevermind, you know, butch Vigwas like an Uber producer,
whereas they then switched toSteve Albini for a new throw,

(48:57):
who was literally, as I said, onthe episode.
He just sort of turns up andgoes right, everybody plug in.
I'm sticking a microphone inthe middle of the room, play the
song, and you know so.
So he's, you know so, reallythe engineer's in charge,
because the engineer will set upall the stuff.
But it's just, you know he justyeah warhol's doing.

Speaker 2 (49:18):
what I suppose, is that one of the big jobs of the
producer, which is to kind ofcontrol the emotions of the band
, to cohere them, to bring themtogether, to be this focal point
for everyone to go okay, we'regonna're going to get this album
made.
But he just did nothing of whatmost people would expect, as in
sitting in the control room andgoing, oh yeah, put the treble
up on that, oh yeah, let's slapa bit of reverb on it.

Speaker 1 (49:35):
He did nothing, none of that he wasn't bothered about
that.

Speaker 2 (49:40):
I don't think he'd see that as necessary for him.

Speaker 4 (49:48):
That.
That's like a minor detail, so,but I think there are other
producers that have producedless than him, I think I think
history is almost kind of harshin a way, because producing can
mean 100 different things, andhe actually did quite a lot of
stuff.

Speaker 2 (49:56):
Oh, this album, yeah, it wouldn't have happened
without him.

Speaker 4 (49:58):
No, no, I don't know who's gonna sign?

Speaker 2 (50:01):
who's gonna sign a band that write songs called
heroin and waiting for theirdrug dealer and things like that
?

Speaker 4 (50:07):
well, no one.
I mean Armin Ettingen fromArmin Ettingen, who was huge
because he was the AtlanticRecords guy I know it's not a
very well known name, but he wasthat's Crosby, stills and Nash
who was like the biggest albumin 1969.

Speaker 1 (50:21):
He's Led Zeppelin biggest album in 69, you know.

Speaker 4 (50:24):
Aretha Franklin.
Do you know what I meanlanticrecords?
And he literally looked at thesleeve, didn't listen to a
single bit of music.
Looked at the sleeve when theywere touting around the first
version of it and said heroin,no, I'm not interested in that,
don't do drug songs.
And he didn't even listen tothe music because he's like I'm
not.
You've put me off, sorry yeah,um so yeah, well, they weren't
helping themselves with some ofthat stuff, whereas warhol was.
So you know, fair, fairfax.

Speaker 1 (50:46):
So, steve, you said Fairfax indeed, yeah.
Fairfax, fairfax.
Steve, you said obviouslySunday morning against.
It's up against Run, run, run.
Brett, would you agree Easily?

Speaker 2 (50:57):
Yeah, it's first on my playlist.
It's Sunday morning, definitely.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:02):
And it's first on my playlist on a sunday morning,
while I'm making pancakes aswell, so I'll only listen on a
tuesday afternoon, though.
Yeah, I'll only listen on atuesday afternoon yeah, to make
me remember, I mean sunday yeah,it's a lovely day, isn't?

Speaker 2 (51:15):
it.
It's a lovely day, isn't it?

Speaker 1 (51:16):
something you've got to love it so um brian eno did a
song called thursday afternoonwhich is 60 minutes long, and it
is a good listen on a thursday.
I'll tell you that it gets youthrough.
There isn't really a Tuesdayafternoon song is there.
I'm trying to think what's onmy Tuesday afternoon playlist.

Speaker 4 (51:39):
Can we get away from the playlists?

Speaker 1 (51:41):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (51:43):
Yes, the literal playlists yeah.

Speaker 4 (51:47):
We're not doing ourselves favours with our
playlist chat OK.

Speaker 1 (51:51):
What's your favourite day of the week?

Speaker 2 (51:53):
listener and what song represents it the best?
Take it away.

Speaker 1 (51:57):
Let's rock.
Sunday Morning goes through 3-0.
On to the next pairing in roundtwo, and that is there she Goes
Again against.
I'm waiting for the man thereshe goes again.

Speaker 5 (52:15):
She's out on the streets again.
She's down on her knees, myfriend, but you know she'll
never ask you please again.
Now take a look.
There's no tears in her eyes.
She won't take it from just anyguy.
What can you do?

(52:36):
You see her walking on down thestreet.
I'm waiting for my man, $26 inmy hand Up to Lexington.

(53:06):
125 Feel sick and dirty, moredead than alive.
I'm waiting for my man.

Speaker 2 (53:21):
I mean I'm waiting for the man.
It's uber classic Velvets,isn't it?
So I mean it's a great story.
It really paints the picture Ithink, I'm gonna go with.
I'm waiting for the man.
I also I'm not sure about thelyrics on uh, there she goes
again.
Really, what?
What it's what it's about.
Yeah, I'm not sure about thataspect of it.
What it's about really.

(53:43):
So, I mean, whereas I'm waitingfor the man, we know what
that's about.
That's a really yes, that takesyou to a place at a time, um,
and it transports you, doesn'tit?
It's a great bit ofstorytelling.
So I'm waiting for the man.

Speaker 1 (53:56):
It's my vote, mine too, and mine as well, there we
go, three nil okay, we're intothe second half of round two and
that starts with All Tomorrow'sParties against Venus in Furs.

Speaker 6 (54:14):
For tomorrow's parties.

Speaker 3 (54:30):
For.

Speaker 6 (54:30):
Thursday's chime, this Sunday's clown, for whom
none will go mourning shiny,shiny, shiny boots of leather

(55:01):
with flash girl.

Speaker 5 (55:03):
Child in the dark comes in.
Bells, your servant, don'tforsake him.
In the dark Comes and bells,your servant, don't forsake him.
Strike, dear mistress, and curehis heart.

Speaker 2 (55:31):
Oh, easily, venus in Furs.
It's an absolute stone-coldclassic.
It has to be.

Speaker 4 (55:37):
I have very, very strong feelings about Venus in
Furs.
Oh, tell us, how does thatsurprise me?
It's so unusual for you to havestrong feelings about something
.
I know.
I knew you'd be shocked by that.
You're such a sanguine chaff.
I't believe it, but god, Ithought I would foreground it
because it's quite a moment.
Okay, drum roll.
Do you know what sort of viewsthey are?

Speaker 2 (55:59):
I would imagine you hate it have a very specific
reason why you hate it I love.

Speaker 1 (56:03):
I know what venus is about is about.
Is it about its subject matter?

Speaker 4 (56:12):
Well, what's it about , Dave?
You tell us what it's aboutwhile we're here before I reveal
my strong feeling that I'venever had before.

Speaker 1 (56:17):
It's exciting Venus in Furs.
I do know that the music isgreat, but the lyrics are dodgy
because it's inspired.
It's inspired by an 1870 novelabout BDSM, written by some pale
Austrian guy with a boner whatdoes the lyrics are dodgy mean?

Speaker 4 (56:42):
it's like the first time in the history of rock
you've got everyone in the 60sgoing ooh, sex, drugs and rock
and roll and not writing aboutit, and you get a guy come along
and actually writes about bdsm.
That's not dodgy, that'sfucking great.
I'm giving myself away now thisis one of the greatest

(57:05):
records ever made.
Because, well, firstly, if youlisten to Run, run, run or
something, it sounds like the60s, this could have been
recorded yesterday, 10 yearsfrom now, in the future, 50
years ago, 60, 70.
I mean it's completely timeless.

(57:27):
It sounds like nothing else.
The the, the atmosphere itcreates, I mean it literally.
You've what.
You know, if you listen to it,you can't not be oh, in a dark
club in a basement with nothingbut red lighting, with weird
shit happening in the dark.

Speaker 3 (57:46):
You know it doesn't matter.

Speaker 4 (57:47):
You could be standing in the middle of alicante, in
spain, by the sea, with the sunshining on you.
Venus in first comes on.
You're in that basement.
That's just the way it is.
The viola is to die, for it'sthe best use of a yeah, it's the
base use of a, of a drone sortof instrument in in rock music.
I can think of um instrument inin rock music.

(58:11):
I can think of um.
Everything about it is great.
It's just one of the mostatmospheric records I've ever
heard.
Uh, I love everything about it.
I love the melody.
I think the melody's great.
I think the lyrics amazing.
Yeah, the playing, theatmosphere, his vocal,
everything.
It's one of my favorite songswe've ever talked about on this
podcast.
I completely adore it.

Speaker 2 (58:30):
So my prediction was right you hate it, Gotcha.

Speaker 4 (58:33):
I hate it yeah.

Speaker 2 (58:36):
Well, I wonder what you're voting for then.
What's it up?

Speaker 1 (58:39):
against Dave.
Well, it's up against AwesomeIce Parties by Nico, which I
love which is probably my secondor third.

Speaker 4 (58:46):
Yeah, slash Nico second or third favourite.
Slash Nico second or thirdfavourite thing on the album.
But yeah, it has to be Venus inFurs.
It has to be Venus in Furs.

Speaker 2 (58:51):
Yeah, what are you voting for, dave?
I think you've already votedfor it, haven't you?

Speaker 1 (58:55):
Brett.

Speaker 2 (58:56):
I have, and I would third that Venus in Furs.

Speaker 1 (58:59):
I voted for it's not even close for me.
Oh no, sorry, it's not upagainst Femme Fatale, which I
was looking down at my sheet,which is shit.
Automarist Parties.
I agree with you, steve.
Actually that is also one of myfavourite things on the album.
But yes, venus in Furs,definitely I agree, it's great
3-0.

Speaker 2 (59:18):
It's just so good.
It's very, very, very strongokay.

Speaker 1 (59:22):
so we have one more semi-final spot up for grabs,
and that is going to be betweenthe Black Angel death song and,
for the first time, heroin, notan old city street in these
garnishes and one of hisbrothers walked off through the

(59:59):
night with his hair in his face,long, long split, the cut from
the knives, a beauty.

Speaker 5 (01:00:06):
I don't know just where I'm going, but I'm gonna

(01:00:34):
try for the kingdom, if I canCos.
It makes me feel like I'm a manwhen I put a spike into my vein
and I tell you things aren'teasy.
Heroin, oh heroin.

Speaker 2 (01:00:47):
Yeah, it's got to be Heroin, hasn't it?

Speaker 4 (01:00:49):
Yeah, I mean, there's no way Heroin's not going
through, that's easy.
So let's say something aboutthe Black Angel of Death song
before it goes.
It's not amazing.
The thing I like about it isthat at least he has the grace
to admit that it was writtenwithout any sense of meaning.
It was just written lyric wiseto piece a bunch of words

(01:01:11):
together that sounded good, andit's rare that a lyricist of his
pretension and or quality orintent will admit that he really
is just playing with words forthe sake of the sounds they
basically just.
Which syllable forms sound bestin these gaps was the game they
were playing, which doesn'tmake for um stunning listening,

(01:01:34):
but there you go well

Speaker 1 (01:01:36):
but didn't bob dylan engage in that kind of activity?
Wildly all the time yeah anddoes that necessarily make it
unenjoyable?
I I would say that the BlackAngel Death song I know that
heroin is very famous and a lotof people would argue, very

(01:01:57):
important, but I would say thatthe Well I find the Black Angel
Death song really, I'm going tosay, even more enjoyable than
heroin and you love yourself abit of heroin, don't?

Speaker 4 (01:02:12):
you.
Dave, that is true ok, so hangon, I think.
Give me a lyric from BlackAngel Death Song that has stuck
with you, that you like.

Speaker 1 (01:02:23):
I'm interested now well, I'm looking at them, so
I'm cheating.
I think it's great, I'minterested now.
Well, I'm looking at them, soI'm cheating.
What are you?
I think it's great.
I love that I was listening toit today and, despite what
sounds like a thing that a traindoes when it arrives at the

(01:02:44):
station and goes, oh yeah,that's a nice sound.

Speaker 4 (01:02:48):
That is a nice sound.

Speaker 1 (01:02:50):
I don't like that, I don't like like that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:52):
but I do like everything else about it.

Speaker 4 (01:02:53):
Oh okay, there we go alright, I'm going to push back
quite hard on the Bob Dylanpoint right now.
I would be the first person tosay that I think a lot of
Dylan's lyrics are over pouredupon, you know, but people sort
of sit down and go, oh, whatdoes this mean?
What does this mean?
What does this mean?

(01:03:13):
And a lot of the time it it iswordplay for wordplay's sake.
But I'm gonna, I'm gonna readyou a bit of it.
So right now I'm only bleedingright, because this is one that
he talks about oh, but that's agreat song yes, but the point is
it doesn't mean anythingobvious, but poetically it's

(01:03:36):
incredible, it's amazing yes,but you, you can't say to me
that it means anything obvious.
You can't say to me well, thisis the meaning or this is what
it's about or it's a story aboutthis, but Black Angel Death
Song is genuinely just the soundof the words.
So I would say with Dylan whatI'm about to read you is just
the sound of the words, but fuckme if it doesn't sound like 50

(01:03:59):
times more poetic than BlackAngel.

Speaker 1 (01:04:00):
Death Song.
Yeah, it does.
I agree with you.

Speaker 4 (01:04:06):
I don't even need to read it, then it's alright, mar,
I'm Only.

Speaker 1 (01:04:08):
Bleeding is like an all-time classic.

Speaker 4 (01:04:10):
Yes, but you can't argue that.
It's like it isn't justwordplay.
It is just wordplay, but it'sseveral, several notches of
wordplay above Black Angel'sDeath Song.

Speaker 1 (01:04:19):
For me, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:04:32):
But then some rap music is wordplay, but that also
sounds amazing.
It can do, but I think I thinkit can.
Um, you know some, sometimesyou can be making a point,
sometimes you can be, not I, I.
I just don't think the dylananalogy works for me.
I think I think it's severalnotches above.
When, when dylan, you know, Imean fine, when you get to
things like Wiggle Wiggle, whichis not Bob Dylan's finest
moment in the 90s, as discussedpreviously, then yeah fine, then

(01:04:54):
he really is just flounderingaround.
But it's sort of classictop-end 60s Dylan.
Even when it's just wordplay,it feels like it means something
.
And Black Angels' Death Songdoesn't feel like it means
anything to me.

Speaker 2 (01:05:07):
OK, no, that was a quiz.
That was on the Blood on theTracks episode.
Is it Dylan or is it Bobbins?
I am not your stepchild beingour favourite song.

Speaker 4 (01:05:17):
I am not your stepchild.
Very listenable, surprisinglylistenable for something with
such a mad title.

Speaker 1 (01:05:26):
That was episode 45.

Speaker 2 (01:05:27):
Oh there you go this is good.
Good, we're plugging the backcatalog.
Now it finally works out after50 episodes.

Speaker 1 (01:05:33):
Let's start plugging some of the other episodes,
because I'll be fuckingsurprised everyone's getting
through this one jeez crikey soso heroine takes the last spot
in the semi-finals, and thatmeans that we have, in the first
semi-final, sunday morningagainst I'm waiting for the man,
and in the second semi-final wehave the avant-garde rock

(01:05:55):
pairing venus infers againstheroin.
Yeah, the first semi-final issunday morning against I'm
waiting for the man.

Speaker 2 (01:06:04):
It's a pretty yeah, it's challenging, actually it's
actually you get to thesemi-final and there's just very
strong songs left here.
Well, you've got, you've got.
I mean, dave has been masterfulin the way he's arranged us to
kind of get the more poppy endof the Velvet Underground
experience to be in onesemi-final, and then that

(01:06:24):
avant-garde, searing, dissonant,cool, outsider thing in the
other semi-final and then theavant-garde, searing, dissonant,
cool, outsider thing in theother semi-final.
So what's more poppy and what'smore cooler and outsider?
That's what I'm going to bejudging this on from now on all
right, I'm, I'm gonna, uh, I'mgonna ruin.

Speaker 4 (01:06:39):
If you haven't already heard it, possibly ruin.
Uh, I'm waiting for the man,though, because have you?
Have you heard the demo thatthey did of it a year before the
album was recorded?

Speaker 5 (01:06:51):
No, because that is in a shall we say different
style, different vibe.

Speaker 4 (01:06:58):
Which is do you want to guess which genre that's in?

Speaker 3 (01:07:01):
Doo-wop.
Can we listen to it?

Speaker 1 (01:07:03):
It's not doo-wop, that's an excellent call,
because we know that Lou lovesdoo-wop.

Speaker 4 (01:07:06):
It's not.
Come on you.
That's an excellent call,because we know that Lou loves
Doo-Wop.
It's not, Come on, you've gotto guess the genre first.
Tell me to play it.
What would be the most?
Yes, I do, but just give us asec, although I don't know quite
how to find it, but we'll findit in a second Genre.
I find it on YouTube.

Speaker 2 (01:07:20):
Okay, what genre do you think Surf pop?

Speaker 4 (01:07:23):
No, still far too appropriate.
What would be really, reallyinappropriate for the Velvet
Underground Jazz?

Speaker 2 (01:07:30):
Getting closer, but no Getting closer, in that it's
less appropriate.
Oh, okay.

Speaker 4 (01:07:37):
What would Lou Reed hate?
If you think about Lou Reed,what sort of genre of American
music would he least like?

Speaker 2 (01:07:43):
Country.

Speaker 3 (01:07:44):
Absolutely bloody right.

Speaker 5 (01:08:01):
Let's play it.
Let's play it Up to Lexington.
One, two, five.
If you're sick and dirty, moredead than alive.

Speaker 3 (01:08:17):
I'm waiting for the man.
Hey white boy, what?

Speaker 5 (01:08:23):
you doing uptown, hey white boy?
What you doing uptown, heywhite boy?

Speaker 1 (01:08:33):
You're just not around, it sounds like the sort
of track that you give to Ringoto sing.
It does, doesn't it?

Speaker 2 (01:08:38):
It sounds like something that the Rowlings
would have been on Exile on MainStreet.

Speaker 4 (01:08:43):
Yeah, it does a little bit, doesn't it?

Speaker 2 (01:08:45):
Yeah, oh, I like it.
I mean mean, I was gonna votefor sunday morning until just
because of the smell of dave'spancakes, but now I'm gonna vote
for.
I'm waiting for the man this isgreat.

Speaker 1 (01:09:00):
No, it really survives.
It, doesn't it?
It does?
Doesn't it, it really does?

Speaker 2 (01:09:02):
yeah, oh it's great.
Yeah, no, I really like it, I'mvoting for.

Speaker 4 (01:09:05):
I'm waiting it.

Speaker 2 (01:09:05):
It really does yeah, oh, it's great.
Yeah, no, I really like it.
I'm voting for.
I'm waiting for the man I'llleave up to you two I'm voting
for sunday morning, but there's,it's, it's a.

Speaker 4 (01:09:15):
There's a nothing in it for me here, but I'm gonna go
sunday morning, yeah because itis well we know what day he's
voting for otherwise he's gothis fucks.

Speaker 1 (01:09:23):
He's weak up, hasn't he?

Speaker 2 (01:09:26):
let has to make his pancakes and went for the man.
He can't do that.

Speaker 4 (01:09:29):
Right, so Sunday morning's going through then.
So let's talk about I'm Waitingfor the man then, because we
haven't really talked about ityet.

Speaker 2 (01:09:36):
No, it's a song about essentially drug deals and
trying to get a score.

Speaker 4 (01:09:41):
A drug deal?
Yeah, yeah, but which someonepointed out?
They were like if it'sautobiographical.
Someone on a podcast the otherday said if he lived in the
village at the time because Ithink he was living in the
village around Annie Warhol it'slike there were definitely
drugs available there.
So why would you know?
it's like he was very dedicatedto getting a good deal, to go

(01:10:03):
all the way up to Harlem, whereit's really inappropriate for
him to be in Harlem.
And clearly from the song he'sgetting a lot of stick for being
in a completely all blackneighbourhood trying to score
drugs.
So it's like so someone wassort of saying you know
something along the lines of youknow, he's really dedicated to
getting a good deal.

Speaker 2 (01:10:18):
Yeah, the song should be I like drugs, but I want
them at 25% discount yes, also,the drug dealer has an excellent
hat.

Speaker 4 (01:10:31):
Okay, which?
What type of hat's he wearing?
The I can't remember the drugdealer.
The drug dealer's wearing, like, some sort of ridiculously
inappropriate hat for a drugdealer.
I think it's a big straw hat isit a big straw?
Hat it is, it is nice a fezwould have been an excellent
choice, though, yes, for a drugdealer PR shoes and a big straw
hat.

Speaker 1 (01:10:50):
Big straw hat, he's all dressed in black.

Speaker 4 (01:10:53):
I just want you to imagine that, right?
So we've gone to Harlem.
Let's just picture this.
We've gone to Harlem and I'mgoing to see my drug dealer.
We know that my drug dealer isblack because everybody in
Harlem is black, except Lou Reed, who's gone up for this drug
deal.
Okay, so so my blood, my drugdealer is black.
He's wearing black he's a drugdealer.
Now let's imagine the big strawhat.
So the police are driving alongand they're like, oh, you know,

(01:11:16):
which one do you think's thedrug dealer?
It's like, well, it could bethe one on the corner, it could
be the one dressed in like allin black, because that's kind of
a cool sort of drug, or itcould be the one with the
massive straw hat on, and do you?

Speaker 5 (01:11:28):
know what.

Speaker 4 (01:11:29):
I think it's probably a disguise, because he is the
least likely of all the peopleon the street to be the drug
dealer because of the ridiculoussartorial head choice.

Speaker 2 (01:11:38):
He looks like he's just come up from somewhere else
.

Speaker 4 (01:11:41):
Yeah, he's been farming.

Speaker 2 (01:11:42):
Yeah, he's been farming.
It's a great disguise.

Speaker 4 (01:11:48):
It's a great disguise .
It's a disguise, it's adisguise.

Speaker 2 (01:11:49):
I realised.
I'm glad we've talked it out.
I've realised that's what hewas doing.
He's disguising himself.
That's what it is.
Yeah Well, it's a cracker, butit's up against Sunday morning,
isn't it so?

Speaker 1 (01:11:59):
And the second semi-final is Venus in furs
against Heroin.

Speaker 3 (01:12:07):
Wow, these are two female hero.

Speaker 4 (01:12:11):
I know which way I'm going to vote, but it's going to
really make me sad.

Speaker 2 (01:12:14):
It is as Harry Hill said.
The problem with Heroin is it'svery Moorish.

Speaker 4 (01:12:19):
It's very Moorish, isn't it?
He's just never quite full.

Speaker 2 (01:12:24):
Very Moorish.
Um, yeah, I mean, it's justsuch an extraordinarily
outrageous lyric, is it?
I mean, this is 1966, he wrotethis heroin I mean they're both
extraordinary lyrics.
I mean venus averse, based on abook yeah, yeah exactly heroin.
But heroin, like I, put a sparkinto my vein.
I mean, mean, I was justweirdly.

(01:12:44):
I was just when we broke forthe semifinals to get a drink
and I was just humming the tuneto heroin.
I kind of gave it a bit of aswing.
I was just imagining singingyou know, heroin.
You know, with a little bit ofswing it's just like you realise
when you add something likethat to it.
The saccharine to it what.

(01:13:08):
Just how extraordinary thelyrics are.

Speaker 1 (01:13:08):
They're, you know just.
Has any rock song ever beenthat explicitly clear?
At one point, mo Tucker saysshe stops drumming because the
noise that was being created wasso like avant-garde.
Shall we say that she had noidea where they were in the song
?
Wow, no, and she's out.

Speaker 4 (01:13:29):
She's she's massively out of time in places and the
thing is she's required to speedup and slow down because,
because, because the song is istrying to replicate the rush of
heroin.
You know so, so, so it, youknow so.
So, as well as being, you know,uh, really specific in the
lyrics about it, they're tryingto recreate it musically.

(01:13:50):
And she's all over the shopbecause she can't hear, or
because she's speeding up andslowing down deliberately.

Speaker 1 (01:13:56):
Uh, it's, it's an incredible thing.
It's amazing um, yeah it'samazing when all the guitars had
just lost rhythm and all thesense of place and they were
just too loud to work out whatwas going on.
So she says she stoppedexpecting that they would all
stop because she'd stopped, butthey all just carried on.
So she just started playingagain wow so there's this gap

(01:14:19):
where the drums stop, all theguitars carry on and then she
starts coming in again.
That's incredible which is justyeah, and then it just got
released like that but that'sperfect.

Speaker 2 (01:14:29):
I mean, it is chaos.
A life with heroin in it istotal chaos.

Speaker 4 (01:14:33):
So it's like it's always so fitting that this song
is that chaotic, you know butalso, I think, coming back to
your point about you know, hasanything else been this specific
?
I mean, there are so many songs, uh, some utterly wonderful
songs out there about, about,heroin.
One of my favorite songs everas a song by, uh, spiritualized
um, which is um I forgot thetitle for a minute.

(01:14:56):
It's one of your favorite songs.

Speaker 5 (01:14:57):
You can't remember what it's called steve it's one
of those song things, one ofthose songs it's called I think
I'm in love and that that's.

Speaker 4 (01:15:03):
That is one of the, and that's just one of those
songs it's called.
I think I'm in love and that'sthat is one of the and that's
just one of the greatest songsI've ever heard, and that that's
very obviously a song aboutheroin.
And, and you know, perfect dayby Lou Reed himself is about
heroin.
There's so many of themknocking about songs by early
songs they're called.

Speaker 2 (01:15:18):
I think they've got their figurative, they have
metaphor.
This is literally the most ugly, stark, brightly lit neon light
.
You know?

Speaker 1 (01:15:29):
monochrome version like so grainy, it's just the
most ugly picture, but it's it'sextraordinary like put songs
about other drugs that are as asum specific.
Aren't they like specificallycocaine?

Speaker 4 (01:15:44):
that's true.
But cocaine is a is a partydrug and therefore you end up
with a kind of party apart.
Even something like cocaine byum jj kale, which clapton then
then covered is, is you know?
Yes, it's kind of an anti-cokesong but it's still upbeat
enough that you don't feeldragged down by it.

(01:16:06):
But Brett's right, compared toall the other, all heroin songs
have a slightly metaphoricalnature to them, and some you
wouldn't know it was a heroinsong, like Perfect Day, for
example, unless you were toldGolden Brown, perfect example,
which is actually relativelyspecific because it's sort of
the colour of the crystals andeverything, but you have to be
told to know it, Whereas this,as you say, is so direct and

(01:16:29):
also it deals with both sides ofit, because on the one hand he
feels like Jesus' son and on theother hand he's right on the
edge of death.
You know it'll be the death ofme and all this stuff.
So it's not trying to say it'sgood or bad or anything, it's
just this is me taking heroinand I'm just hitting you
straight with it?

Speaker 2 (01:16:48):
yeah, it's, it's.
It's incredibly stark, brutal,yeah, yeah are we?

Speaker 1 (01:16:53):
are we talking about it because it's about to go out
to?

Speaker 2 (01:16:57):
yes, it is, of course I mean yeah I've got an idea
that steve quite likes venus infurs.

Speaker 4 (01:17:04):
I do.
You're about to guess withoutknowing.

Speaker 2 (01:17:07):
That's what I'd definitely guess off the cuff.

Speaker 3 (01:17:10):
Definitely guess.
I knew that he had a strongview about it, but didn't know
what that strong view was, and Ihad to guess, I would
definitely guess that.

Speaker 4 (01:17:18):
And you'd be right.
I absolutely love heroin, andheroin is the song to be clear.

Speaker 2 (01:17:24):
Snip that up.
That's it.

Speaker 3 (01:17:27):
Oh I love a bit of heroin.
Well, as you said, it's MoorishOn a Sunday morning.

Speaker 4 (01:17:32):
On a Sunday morning with my pancakes.
Sprinkle it on, but it's just aremarkable piece of music.
But as much as anything else,it's still a great song.

Speaker 3 (01:17:44):
I mean the viola is incredible.

Speaker 1 (01:17:45):
are you talking about incredible heroin?

Speaker 4 (01:17:46):
it's, it's, it's, it's a remarkable piece of music
and I I I would listen to it bychoice, and did listen to it by
choice a lot when we wereyounger I've listened to it for
years, but I've really enjoyedlistening to it again you know,
even even at its mostgrotesquely noisy and insane in
the middle, there it's not, youknow, it's not like european

(01:18:06):
somewhere.
I just think this is just noisenow.
There's not one single point inthis song where I think this is
just noise now.
It's always.
This is incredible.

Speaker 2 (01:18:15):
Yeah, what an experience yeah, yeah, it's
extraordinary song.
Yeah, yeah, it's great and andit did, I love it.
It's it's trying to achievesomething through the actual
music rather than just thelyrics.
To to change the form, to usethe form or or use the form in a
very irregular way to representthe experience of, of or.

(01:18:36):
The subject matter is soimaginative.

Speaker 4 (01:18:38):
It's brilliant, but I think that's what I was saying
earlier about, about this wholething about stretching yourself
beyond your ability level.
I mean, it's it's like this iswhere that works.
It's like we're trying to push,oh they're definitely do
something.
We can't do it.
We're all, we're all over theplace, we're out of time, we're
out of tune, we've, we've, we'rebeyond our musical capabilities

(01:19:02):
.
But unlike, unlike in somethinglike European Summer, it just
sends it to noise for no reason.

Speaker 1 (01:19:07):
Everything about that works here it's just brilliant
but it ain't Venus in first.
I don't love.
I don't love it the song Heroinas much as you two.
I think it gets a little bittoo messy for me.
It gets on the wrong side ofthat line it is very messy,
especially in the middle.

Speaker 2 (01:19:25):
It gets a little bit too messy for me.
It gets on the wrong side ofthat line.

Speaker 1 (01:19:27):
It is very messy, especially in the middle.
It is very messy, yeah, and sothe song Heroin for me.
It doesn't run Venus in Furs asclose as All Tomorrow's Parties
did for me, I prefer.

Speaker 4 (01:19:37):
All Tomorrow's.

Speaker 1 (01:19:38):
Parties to Heroin.
But yeah, it's not in doubtthat Venus in Furs is the best
song here and I agree, I thinkit's a 3-0.

Speaker 2 (01:19:51):
That's going through to the final.
Okay, wow, we have a final.
I mean wow, we do.

Speaker 1 (01:19:56):
We do have a final, and it is Sunday morning against
Venus in Furs.
Wow, that's a very fittingfinal.

Speaker 2 (01:20:04):
I mean, once you've gone through this, there are so
many, just stand out, drop dead.
Brilliant tracks on this albumaren't there, you know, recorded
, recorded in three days by aband no one wanted to sign, who
a year before couldn't even gettheir drummer to turn up to
their gigs, let alone anyoneelse.
You know this isn't the final.

Speaker 1 (01:20:21):
I expected actually I didn't expect sunday morning to
be in the final, because itdoes stand out as a bit of an
oddity and I expected it to beone of the other sort of proto
punk, dylan-esque folk rocksongs like I'm waiting for the
man or there she goes again.
I expected one of those to bemaybe in the final um yeah but
I'm I'm not surprised actuallythat venus infers made it

(01:20:43):
through in the bottom half ofthe draw against all of those
avant-garde wig-out, heavy messysongs like Heroine, black Angel
, death, european Sun, allTomorrow's Parties, I think, as
good as all that they are.

Speaker 4 (01:21:01):
I think we have agreed that venus infers is um
is pretty awesome but everythingelse has something that you
could be put off by, which is,you know, the viola becomes
crazy noisy in the middle ofheroin, or european sun descends
into total wig out.

(01:21:22):
Or, uh, black angel's deathsong is a bit meaningless in the
lyrics and and sort of, is justsort of ends and doesn't go
anywhere, or nico's vocal isgoing to get, yeah, under your
grill because it's not foreverybody, or do you know?
I mean, whatever this is,there's something, okay,
something for, but but venusinfers is, it's just perfect.

Speaker 1 (01:21:41):
It's perfect.
But if okay, let us try.
So Venus in furs it just comesstraight in, there's no intro
and it's almost a drone backingthroughout.
It doesn't have a sort of highor a low, it just kind of drones

(01:22:03):
on throughout a sort of high orlow.
It just kind of drones onthroughout.
Is that?
Is that something that thatcould put you off?

Speaker 4 (01:22:12):
not necessarily does but, if you don't like drone in
general and you're the sort ofperson who who doesn't?
I mean, I love drones,absolutely love them again, not
for flying into prisons, um youknow, if.
If that's not your thing, thenyeah, fine that that could be
off-putting.
But again, the vocal could beoff-putting, but it's perfect
because it sounds sleazy.

(01:22:33):
You know, he's almost speaktalking.
Um, sorry, not speak talking,they're the same thing speak
singing.
Uh, you know, in in in places,um, you know, but it's perfect,
he sounds because it worksagainst the drone.
It really works that vocalreally works well.

Speaker 2 (01:22:49):
I mean, the whole song is is based on a book,
isn't it?
I mean that this band I meanthis band have got serious kink
in them.
They're named after the velvetunderground is named after a
book which is about sexualtaboos going on in the early 60s
new york city this song isfinished.
In first it's written by a mancalled Leopold von Sascha
Massach, so that's probablywhere we get the word masochist

(01:23:11):
from.
So, and it's about a man whobecomes a slave to his lover.
Taste the whip in love, notgiven lightly, I mean crikey the
lyrics are great crikey.

Speaker 3 (01:23:25):
The lyrics are great, they're so good, crikey Mrs.

Speaker 4 (01:23:28):
You know, such a British response to an.

Speaker 2 (01:23:31):
Austrian peccadillo oh, crikey, Crikey.

Speaker 4 (01:23:34):
Leo.

Speaker 2 (01:23:35):
Calm down a bit mate.

Speaker 1 (01:23:38):
As you're making your pancakes in the morning one or
two sugars in your tea.

Speaker 2 (01:23:42):
Oh, got a bit of to colour here.
We couldn't deal with that.
No way, no way.
Is this written by a Britishband?

Speaker 3 (01:23:51):
but what else do you like in the?

Speaker 2 (01:23:53):
lyrics Steve, what else do you what?

Speaker 4 (01:23:56):
just, I mean I love you know.
Strike dear mistress and curehis heart.

Speaker 5 (01:24:01):
I mean, it just says so much.

Speaker 4 (01:24:04):
You know that that that that's real show, don't
tell.
Do you know what I mean?
It's like you can see his painand his pleasure and his need
for it and everything.
It's just, it's all there.
And you know, whiplash girlchild is, is, is.
So it's like there's awrongness to that because

(01:24:26):
because it's hinting at thislolita style you know
underagedness, that you knowit's like are we are we going
there?
Are we not going there?
You know there's this, there'sso much hinted at and and it's
just never, it's it's.
You can't better it, it's justperfect it's a.

Speaker 2 (01:24:46):
It is an extraordinary piece.
They're both extraordinarypieces of music.
They're both very different andthey're both on the same album,
four tracks apart.
It's crazy.

Speaker 4 (01:24:56):
It does beg the question do they lose out when
kale goes though?
Because you know again, if youtake off the, the viola I keep
saying viola.
I'm not sure whether I shouldbe saying viola.
I think viola might be a name.
Anyway, take off thatinstrument and that those songs
are significantly lessinteresting, uh, that both of
them would be significantly lessinteresting without john kale's

(01:25:18):
contribution.
Um, and that raises questionsabout you know, because
obviously why?

Speaker 1 (01:25:26):
Because they Isn't that an example that the band
fit together really well?
And these are two songs wherethe band are all delivering and
you can't take any one part away.

Speaker 4 (01:25:42):
Yes, absolutely yeah.
I think they're significantlyless.
You know, if you took John Caleoff, it just wouldn't be as
good, it wouldn't be anywherenear as good, but wouldn't that
be the same for any of the?

Speaker 2 (01:25:55):
four of them.

Speaker 1 (01:25:56):
Any of the four of them.
I mean Nico is the one who youcould take out of this album and
it would still be as good.

Speaker 4 (01:26:03):
No, no, no, I'm not saying out of the Velvet
Underground, I'm saying out ofthese two specific songs.

Speaker 1 (01:26:07):
No, that's what I mean.
I mean she is.
You could take her away fromSunday morning, because Sunday
morning, I think, is the onlyone I'm not sure she's actually
on Venus in Furs.
You could take her backingvocals away from Sunday morning
and you could replace them withthe rest of the band, and that
would probably still be just asgood but you couldn't take.

(01:26:32):
Lou Reed away.
You couldn't take John Cairdaway.
You couldn't take Moe or orSterling away.
You could take Sterling Morris.
I think.

Speaker 4 (01:26:42):
No, I don't think.
I don't think that's true.
The viola is so specific, it'ssuch a specific and unique sound
that doesn't turn up on otheruh albums, you know?
I mean, I mean, how many timeshave we talked about the
incredibly foregrounded violapart in the 51 episodes we've
now done, you know, in rock andit?

(01:27:03):
We haven't once.
It's never come up.
Because it doesn't come up.
I think what?

Speaker 5 (01:27:08):
you're saying.
I don't disagree with whatyou're saying no in the 50
previous episodes of McCartneyand.

Speaker 4 (01:27:14):
Cole we've never discussed it and I think in
Heroin and in Venus, in Furs.
Those are the two songs we'retalking about right?
No, no, sorry, sunday Morningand Venus in Furs, oh, sorry, I
forgot we're talking about,right, no, no, sorry, sunday
Morning and Venus in Furs.
Oh, sorry, I forgot we weretalking about Sunday Morning.
Yeah, but anyway in Heroin andVenus in Furs, I don't think
those songs are anywhere near asinteresting without the viola.

Speaker 2 (01:27:35):
Yeah, I agree, yeah, and I think they'd still be
brilliant.

Speaker 4 (01:27:40):
They'd still be brilliant, but they wouldn't be
as interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:27:43):
I agree.
Venus in firsts is such anintegral part, isn't it that
sound?
And it's like a loop as well.

Speaker 4 (01:27:49):
It's pre-looping because he's not going.
Oh, I'm going to play a solonow.
Chaps Cale is very good atgoing.
I'm sticking to this one thingand I'm going to do it the whole
way through, because loopinghasn't been invented yet.

Speaker 1 (01:28:09):
Is that?
Ok yeah, invented yet it's okay.
Yeah, and the way you would,the way you would make, prove
that case is it's one.
It's, it's an element of thesong that if you did a cover of
the song and you didn't have itin there, you'd be listening to
that cover going where's theviola?
yeah like if you did a cover ofSweet Child of Mine and you
didn't have the riff, yeah, itwould be like, well, hang on,

(01:28:30):
this isn't Sweet Child of Mine.
I mean it is because it's acover, but it's missing the
integral element let's playCheryl Crow's cover of Sweet
Child of Mine right now.

Speaker 4 (01:28:40):
Let's not, and see if that applies.

Speaker 5 (01:28:46):
Now and then when I see his face, it takes me away

(01:29:08):
to that special place, and if Istare too long I'll probably
break down and cry.

Speaker 1 (01:29:18):
Well, ok, and what was the John Lewis advert which?
They played it on the piano andthat didn't work Because it
just it wasn't.
It was Sweet.
They played it on the piano andthat didn't work because it
just it wasn't.
It was Sweet, child of Mine onthe piano, but it just the riff
didn't.
It wasn't the riff, you know.

Speaker 4 (01:29:31):
It's like you're missing the central element of
that song and it's still a goodenough song that it works, but
it's not the same thing at allyeah right.
What's going through then,people?
It's the final's the final.

Speaker 1 (01:29:45):
There's nothing to go through, it's just one to the
left stand one is going to winsunday morning or venus infers
is going to win, and I know whatI'm voting for what are you
voting for, dave?

Speaker 2 (01:29:57):
if you know it, share it I'm voting for venus infers
Whoa.
Well, I am voting.

Speaker 1 (01:30:05):
I wouldn't make my pancakes to it, but I prefer it
as a song.
I think it's the better song.
It's a brilliant moment in rockmusic.

Speaker 2 (01:30:16):
I'm going to give a vote to Sunday Morning, so I'm
going to leave because it's justan amazing, beautiful pop
moment.
It's in an amazing, beautifulpop moment.
It's in an album full ofabstract moments and
juxtaposition and making yousurprised.
Changing your expectations ofwhat you're going to hear Sunday
Morning is my vote, becauseit's so unexpected for a Velvet

(01:30:38):
Underground song so.
Steve, you've got the decidingvote.

Speaker 1 (01:30:41):
Are you setting up a?
Would you really vote forSunday morning over Venus
Affairs?
No, of course you wouldn't.
Or are you setting up?
Of course I wouldn't, I'm set,I mean breaking the fourth wall.

Speaker 2 (01:30:51):
I'm obviously setting up Steve.
Steve loves his song.
I'm setting him up for thevictory, aren't I, dave?
Okay?

Speaker 3 (01:30:56):
You great big ninny, you ruined it, dave.
I knew that if you bothered tothink about it.
Very poor, very poor hosting.

Speaker 4 (01:31:08):
So it's terrible.
So brett, brett, brett.
What uh?
What instrument is being played?
Pop quiz what instrument isbeing played?
Or you can have this dave onthe uh on the lovely track.
Sunday morning what?

Speaker 2 (01:31:18):
is that?
Is it so let's pronouncecelesta, celesta the Celesta.
It's kind of like a keyboard,is it?
And?

Speaker 4 (01:31:25):
it's a special twinkly keyboard that creates
that lovely twinkly sound.

Speaker 5 (01:31:28):
And what?

Speaker 4 (01:31:29):
is the other most famous piece of music in popular
culture, which has the Celestaupon it.
And can we hear it now, beforewe get there?
Is it Twinkle, twinkle LittleStar?
Well, there's so many versionsof that you couldn't yeah, okay
it is.
Let's have a little bit ofDance of the Sugar Plum Fairy by
Tchaikovsky, oh lovely.

Speaker 2 (01:31:49):
No, no classical music.
This is, this is rock and rollonly don't hear it much, do you?

Speaker 4 (01:32:24):
you don't, you don't hear much less of these days no
we're the worst.

Speaker 2 (01:32:28):
For it, I would say more celeste so there you go.

Speaker 4 (01:32:32):
So a bit of celeste, a bit of viola oh beautiful, get
it back in popular culture.

Speaker 2 (01:32:38):
So I mean so quite clearly I I'm voting for.

Speaker 4 (01:32:41):
Venus in furs Sorry.

Speaker 3 (01:32:45):
We'll do that again.

Speaker 2 (01:32:47):
You're still fucking impossible to work with.
I was going to say so, celeste.
The chat aside, let's say let'sbuild it up.
Steve, what are you voting for?
And why?

Speaker 4 (01:32:59):
What am I voting for and why?
I love Sunday morning, but I'mvoting for Venus in furs because
it is genuinely one of myall-time favourite songs.
I'd forgotten how much I lovedit.

Speaker 5 (01:33:09):
It's going to Do.
You know what I'm going to do.
I'm going to put it in aplaylist and make pancakes.

Speaker 2 (01:33:13):
I will you have to make the anti what's the anti
version of pancakes for a Sundaymorning?
You have to make that.

Speaker 4 (01:33:20):
If you're listening to venus and furs, you have to
make, oh god what, what, whatfood would you make if I suppose
you'd make some, uh, velvetycupcakes, uh, that were red?

Speaker 2 (01:33:31):
everything you make would have to be bright red yeah
, yeah and you'd have to makeyou'd have to make them in the
dark yeah, and like the richestdarkest chocolate, it'd have to
be really indulgent darkestchocolate and yes, eat that
instead.

Speaker 4 (01:33:43):
You're absolutely right.
And then, but you wouldn'tactually really eat it with a
ganache, that's nice.
You wouldn't actually eat it.
You'd kind of like you'd moveit towards your face delicately
and then you'd just smother it.
Smother it on your face,smother it on your face.
Cover your face with it, coveryour face.
Don't eat it yourself they lickit in my case off my lovely

(01:34:08):
beard I was just okay so just aminute mentions of food.

Speaker 1 (01:34:12):
Yeah, but just I've got a choice.

Speaker 2 (01:34:14):
Now when I come back, who's whose house gonna come
around to for breakfast on asunday morning?
Dave, spark up the the fryingpan.
I want some pancakes.

Speaker 4 (01:34:22):
I do not fancy I do not fancy steve's idea of Sunday
morning breakfast, which you'regoing to lick out of my beard.
Yes, I'm voting for it, becauseI think I've made the case
already.
But I mean, it's just when youput, sometimes, when you put
imperfect elements together, youcreate something completely

(01:34:46):
perfect.
And that's what happens here.
Nothing about what they puttogether here.
The viola playing isn't perfect.
It's out of tune in places.
Reed's vocal is measurablyquite bad.
Do you know what I mean?
It's like there's all.
There's all kinds of things.
You know her Mo has never beena great drummer.
There's so many things that areimperfect, but when you put

(01:35:09):
them together in this song it'sas perfect as a record gets and
it's completely unforgettableshiny, shiny, shiny boots of
leather with flash.

Speaker 5 (01:35:30):
Girl child in the dark comes in bells.
Your servant, don't forsake him.
Strive dear mischief and curehis heart down.

(01:36:02):
He sins of streetlight fancies.
Chase the costumes she shallwear, hermine furs adorned in
periods.
Severin Severance awaits youthere, you, you.

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