June 26, 2025 • 56 mins
In this weeks episode Rawleigh and Rae discuss their lives as DINKS, double income no kids. They touch on sensitive topics such as infertility and pregnancy loss so feel free to skip this weeks episode if you are not in the space for that information.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:16):
It is 7:08 PM on May 26th, 2025 here in Central Appalachia.
I'm Raleigh. And I'm Ray and.
We are the meandering millennials.
We are two mid 30s millennials here to talk about our lives,
travelling, homesteading skills,dogs, catch chickens, cooking,
creating and any other topics that might spark our interest
(00:38):
today. You are tuning in to episode 11
and it is titled DINK which is an acronym standing for double
income, No kids. We could probably add a couple
more letters like but as many dogs as your husband will let
you have. Yeah, throw some cats in
chickens to seal the deal. I just want to say real quick
(00:58):
that it is Memorial Day and so thank you to all the service
members out there, present and past, future, etcetera.
Appreciate your service. Yeah, just want to get that out
there. OK, Appreciate it.
Very nice. Happy Memorial Day.
So before we dig into this topicthat might be a little sensitive
(01:19):
for people, we're going to be talking about infertility and
kind of our journey of why we don't have kids.
So listen, at your own discretion.
If that's something that you're going through and it's kind of
sensitive or just something you're not interested in, feel
free to skip this one. All right?
What are you drinking today there, Raleigh?
(01:41):
I'm drinking a dead Billionaire by Little Death, which is half
tea, half lemonade, and that's II love that they changed this
because there's a funny story about that.
They used to be called Armless Palmers as a play on the Arnold
Palmer, which I guess he was a famous golfer that originated
the half and half. Half.
(02:01):
Tea half lemonade. His estate sued Liquid Death
because they called it Armless Palmer and they were like OK
cool. And so they changed the name to
Dead Billionaire, which I think is much funnier.
I honestly wish I would have saved some of the cans that said
Armless Palmers on them. But yeah, it's half tea half
(02:24):
lemonade. They use agave to sweeten it and
it is very good. What are you drinking?
I had a little, it's not a panicbuy but impulsive buy at the
Walmart today and was going through.
I've been just hounding down thelime liquid deaths that you buy
(02:44):
for yourself. So I thought I should probably
purchase for you this time. Oh, did you get in for me this
time? Thank you.
Well, I felt bad about drinking all of them, so I grabbed a case
of Waterloo Ruby Red Tangerine sparkling water, and it's pretty
good. I don't think I've had that
particular flavor before. And yeah, I like it.
I like a sparkling water. I like a carbonated drink.
(03:07):
I like the way the bubbles feel and the back of my throat.
It's very sensory experience. Which yeah, we did.
Try the Sprite plus T. Oh, earlier Sprite flea.
Which? Was as you thought, I I another
impulse 5. The Instagram ad got me and I
was looking for it specifically to try 'cause I know you like
Arnold Palmer. So I thought it'd be kind of
(03:28):
like a spin on that and saw it and bought it.
I said, oh, I got something for us to try.
When I got home from Walmart. I showed it to you and you said
with your whole chest. In all seriousness, Sprite.
Flea. What is Sprite Flea?
It's Sprite plus T, but I look. At that now, but I hadn't seen.
I didn't know that. Product that they were.
(03:49):
Coming out with I didn't know itwas anything new.
I haven't caught it and on the label it says like a normal
Sprite label and they have a small brown like banner below.
It. That has plus T and a yellow
font and the fancy like cross onthe top of the capital T almost
met the plus. And so I just saw Flea and I was
(04:12):
like, oh, maybe the basis for Red Hot Chili Peppers is going
to collaboration with with Sprite.
I was wrong. I realized it was Sprite plus
tea. Yeah, tea flavored, not flea
flavored. Well, that's why I thought it
was a weird marketing ploy by Coca-Cola, but alas, I just
misread it. Or they miss real opportunity.
(04:36):
Yeah, Sprite Flea. Sprite Flea.
All right. Well, that was good.
Yeah, it was good. I mean.
No, that's why I said to you it tastes like kombucha without the
Tang. That's fair.
We're not huge soda people. We prefer like regular water,
sparkling water. But every once in a while, we'll
I. Think we do get Sprite though.
It's usually like a lemon lime soda if we are going to get.
(04:58):
One, yeah, if we go to like FiveGuys or something has a fountain
where there's sometimes where I just don't feel good and I just
want a fountain Sprite. Or if I have a migraine, I need
a fountain Coke. Full fat, full fat Coke.
Everything helps, you said that works really well for you as far
as like a temporary relief of symptoms.
Yeah. Some Coca-Cola.
Yep. All.
Right, you're ready. The cocaine.
(05:19):
The cocaine, that's what helps. You ready to dig into these?
Yeah. All right, I think I'll start
talking and then if you wanna chime in when you have something
to add at work. Yes it does.
All right, perfect. So I guess I'll start with
question for you. So I just lied about everything
I was gonna say. Did you think you would always
(05:41):
have children? Like as you grew up, did you
just assume that that was going to be?
Yeah. I mean, I think that's a
societal expectation that it's just like you, you know, you go
to high school, you go to college, you get a job, you have
a family. Yeah.
And so that was always somethingthat I just assumed was going to
happen in the normal course of your life.
But was it something that you like look forward to, or was it
just something you were like, this is a box that I'll be
(06:04):
checking at some point? I mean more the latter.
It wasn't like I think, but I think again, for I think for men
it's different. The like the societal pressures
and ideals of having kids are more like you're a participant,
certainly, but I don't know thatit's like your adult life
doesn't revolve around having kids, I think even nearly as
(06:29):
much as what is expected for women.
That's fair. Yeah.
And you're not like a huge kids person either.
Like if we're at a friends house, I have kids or like my
nephew comes over. You do great in short spurts,
but I think. The incessant questions and just
like kids are stupid. It's not their fault.
(06:49):
They're just dumb. Like they just don't have the
knowledge. I have very little time for
that, like for adults, but like I said, with kids, it's like
they don't even have the vocabulary for half of this
stuff. Like so it's not even if I were
to try to explain something to them, I'd have to explain 30
other things to get my point across.
(07:10):
And I just who has the time for that?
Not me. Yeah, so no one will be asking
us to babysit anytime soon. Which honestly?
I mean you, they'll ask you. You're great at babysitting.
I'm not with kids when you were younger.
I'm good at faking faking it till I'm making it till they
smell the fear on me. To answer my own question, I did
(07:32):
not think I would have kids. Yeah, I remember when we first
got together, you like, didn't like, didn't want, like active.
Kids were like. I don't want them.
And I was like, Oh well, I wouldlike I would like them.
And then we at a certain point we kind of two ships passing in
the night. You were more on the Let's Have
Kids train and I was like, good,that doesn't sound great.
(07:58):
Yeah, doesn't sound like the most fun.
I think I was coming from a place where I had never had a
relationship with someone that Ithought, like, I could see
myself having kids with or that I could trust enough.
Yeah, to like, be a partner in parenting with.
And so you had obviously proven very early on, you know, once we
(08:18):
had pets that you are very, for as anxious as I am, like you're
very trustworthy and you take like my concerns seriously.
And so I think that's kind of where it switched for me, where
I was like, if I'm going to like, you're the only person
that I would trust enough to go through that life changing
process with. And then at the same time you're
(08:40):
having this, hey, the world's kind of changing.
And I don't know that this is. That was that.
And also just as adults, it's not like we're like we weren't
super well all like we both wentto college and had student loans
and you know, we bought a house,but it was a starter house.
And I think, well, would we pay for what was Mason Town like
$45,000? So it's not like it was or 65.
(09:03):
I'm sorry, $65,000. That's right.
I think the first one you lookedat with your grandfather like
they had stolen all the copper and stuff out was like 45,000
because you had started looking before I did.
Like you were just going to lookfor a house because you were
renting crappy apartments in Morgantown.
And we, like you looked around and were like, oh, I can get
(09:23):
rent. Like I can get a mortgage for
cheaper than what I can get rent.
Yeah. Which we'll do an episode all
about how home owning and the. Pluses and the contents for that
for something before I did. But I think once we had bought
that house, I was kind of like, OK, this feels like an
opportunity to start. And you were like I this doesn't
(09:44):
feel. Well, it was probably 'cause I'm
trying to remember where I was working.
We were probably there for two years or so.
Yeah. And then you were like, oh, we
should probably. Not getting any younger.
Yeah, do that if we're gonna. So that's.
Probably about 28 ish. Yeah, 'cause I kind of was like,
well, we'll, we'll wait till we're 30.
And I was like, cool, cool, cool.
(10:05):
That looks different for me thanit does for you.
Like for women, that looks different.
So ultimately we did decide to wait until we had moved to where
we live now, which was in springof 2020.
And then we started attempting to see if we could get pregnant
and. I said.
I think we started actively not trying to prevent it.
(10:28):
That's fair, yeah. Like you didn't, you just
stopped taking birth control andwe weren't using protection and
we were just like, if it happens, it happened.
Like, yeah, but I mean, we had known people that had like
accident, not accidentally, but like they weren't overly
planning on having it. But they weren't taking steps
and it happened and they were obviously happy.
They weren't disappointed that it happened because they would
have been, you know, taking active steps if you.
(10:50):
Prevent what they wanted. But I, Yeah, so we weren't
trying to prevent it at that point.
And I think after about a year of no luck, I was starting to
like, test my ovulation and justkind of like doing the at home
things that you can do to kind of see what's going on and
(11:11):
ultimately make a long story. Short, short, short, short.
Went to the gynecologist that some testing, was told that
really the only pathway forward for us at that point would be
through IVF, which neither of us, neither one of us, I don't
think wanted a baby so badly that we were willing to go down
(11:35):
that path. No, I think it's also IVF is its
own, it's, I mean, a, it's very expensive.
B, the likelihood for you havingmultiples and or issues like
complications like go up exponentially.
And so I think we weren't, we weren't willing to pay that much
(11:56):
to take that risk, if that makessense.
And also there's no guarantee. So it's what I think it's like
10 grand it's. Way more than that now.
I think. It's like I know 30 to 50.
I think at the time it was like 10,000 per treatment and like I
said, so this would have been probably 6-7 years ago.
So and I think also like just the like you said, the
(12:18):
affordability of it is like having a baby on its own was out
of our price range to be honest.Like we would had to really
crunch for budgeting. We certainly didn't have an
extra 3040 grand laying around because often times, like you
said, it takes multiple rounds to be successful with that.
And also, I just had zero interest in the emotional roller
(12:39):
coaster of getting your hopes upand all of the testing.
And I would had to probably go to Morgantown for all of that,
for all these appointments and then shooting, you know,
hormones into myself. My, as we've talked before, you
know, like my mental health is ahuge priority for me and
something that's a very delicatebalance.
And I thought, man, adding that extra hormones and stress, I
(13:05):
just didn't think was going to be worth it in the end, to be
honest. Yeah, Yeah.
And then so that was about 2021.And then obviously in 2022, Roe
V Wade was overturned. And I think that day I said to
(13:25):
you when you got home from work,I'm done.
Like, I don't want to try. I don't want to, you know, we
need to take steps to prevent this now because heaven forbid
something happened and I do become pregnant.
And it is complicated. We the closest trauma center
that I would realistically be shipped off to is in a state
(13:45):
that had made abortion illegal even whenever, you know, the
mother's health is really at risk.
And unfortunately, we've had some people close to us who have
gone through really horrible situations where there were
babies that were very much wanted, but because of a genetic
issue or something, just a complication, had to really jump
(14:09):
through a lot of hoops to get the care that they needed to be
able to continue to live their lives as humans, as adults,
through no fault of anybody's. But that process just became
infinitely more complicated and scary and I did not want to lose
(14:30):
my life bleeding in the parking lot of a hospital because I
couldn't get access to healthcare that I needed at the
time. So that really like nail in the
coffin for me felt especially ifyou know, you talk about
complications with IVF, you know, the risk effect topic,
pregnancy or having complications is increased at
(14:51):
that point. And then it just didn't feel
like a gamble that I was willingto take anymore.
Yeah, which I think we had kind of tapered off.
Like I think we had stopped actively trying at that.
Point. Yeah, I think and.
Then you were just like now, like we're 1000% we're done.
Like we're going to actively take.
Like we need to tell people if they're asking, like we need to
tell our parents that it's not going to happen.
(15:15):
So ultimately, yeah, we made thedecision not to move forward
with IVF. I, I, you still to this day
think that was the right decision.
That decision was made prior to Roe V.
Wade being overturned. So that really solidified it.
Yeah. And we had briefly talked at one
point. Well, I had talked, You had
listened about fostering kids. And, you know, I have like, a
(15:40):
huge heart and always just want to help.
But even that process started tofeel really like overwhelming
and stressful and, you know, having the animals that we have
and living in the location that we're in, and it just didn't
feel like it was going to be theright choice for our family
either. So kind of put that one to bed
(16:01):
as well. Yeah, I was always leery of, of
adoption just because you don't know, like you don't know.
I mean, there's always, you know, nature versus nurture.
There's always still a genetic, like there's always a genetic
proponent to kids. And so you don't know what would
have happened. And even around here, you could
(16:22):
have had, you know, kids that were born, you know, addicted to
illicit substances or, and that was part of it too.
It was actually a person that I had worked with at the time.
They had fostered a child and raised her from when she was, I
think a newborn until she was like 2 And in the, the state
(16:44):
that the child's mother was in, like they were able to fight to
try and get custody back. Like the mother had gone through
whatever the court deemed her necessary to go through to get
her child back. And so now, you know, they have
this child that they've, you know, emotionally invested in
and like could have just lost her to, you know, arguably a
(17:07):
probably not great, at least a worse situation than what they
were providing. And so like to jump through all
those hoops and to do Foster andthen to just not know about the
kid. And I just think something
selfish in me was always like, if it's not like if it's not my
DNA, if it's not my like genetics, like I'm not going to
(17:29):
be as invested. OK.
That's very vulnerable for you to share.
Thank you for sharing that. Which because I had, you know,
you and I had talked when we couldn't have kids about if I
like would go like if you would be OK with me, like going to
donate sperm or something like that.
I totally forgot about that. Just because I, I, it was like I
said, I think there's a primordial drive for that, like
(17:53):
just to, you know, to spread your seed to get your genetic
material out there. Which I was not OK with and you
were very respectful of that. No.
And like I said, I just asked from a standpoint I've since saw
like all that I just the world that we occupy.
I'm not, I'm not overly worried about any of that.
(18:14):
I'm not, it's not something thatI, I have a big drive for, like
carrying on my family's legacy or you know, however you want to
put it. That was, that's something that
I've like I said, it wasn't likeI was super convicted on it
anyway. Right.
It was just something you're talking it.
Was just something I wasn't likeI said I was still figuring out
for myself like where I stood with that and yeah, I mean, I
(18:35):
just. I don't fostering always just
seems like I said you don't know.
I don't know. Like I said, if if something.
Happens. But like I said, again, there's,
you know, you see, you know, people that are great parents
and then their kids turn out shitty.
Even when it's their kids. Yeah, no, that's what I mean.
So you just don't know. And so like, yeah, like if we
(18:55):
had brought a, you know, a kid into the house, which I think it
would have been different if they're like young, young.
But like you said, like there's a lot of hoops to jump to.
Like there's a lot of understandably so absolutely
think we need to like as the government, like you need to
put, you need to do a lot of vetting and make sure you're
getting, you know, children intohomes that are good for them.
(19:17):
And so I'm I'm 100% on board with that, but it's just, it's a
lot of stuff you have to go through like you have to go to
classes and do certification and.
And ultimately, ultimately the goal with fostering is unit is
reunification with the biological family.
Like that is the overall goal. So you have to go into it
understanding that the goal is that you are kind of providing a
(19:39):
safe environment for this kid while mom and or dad figure out
how to get back on track so thatthey're able or even like an
aunt, uncle, grandparent are able to take custody so that the
child is reunified with their biological families.
The ultimate goal. And like you said, you weren't
super important with it. I wasn't willing to like I
(20:01):
wasn't so passionate about it that I thought I needed to
convince you. And it also feels like a thing
that like. Unless both people are super
enthusiastic and on board then it's not worth trying to pursue
I. Just feel like you're going to
end up presenting each. Other Yeah, that's what I mean.
Like, it wasn't worth it to me to try to keep pushing you about
(20:24):
the topic when you clearly were not enthusiastic about it.
And you never want to have, you know, a kid in an environment.
Not that I think you would actively be frustrated or like,
take quote UN quote, take it outon a child, but I think kids are
very, like, perceptive and you're not a huge kid person to
begin with. So it just wasn't worth trying
(20:45):
to pursue at that point. Yeah.
All right. Do you think that there's
anything we are going to miss out on by not having kids?
Yeah. I mean, I think there's always
something. I think it's more the the idea
of kids for me is better when they're adults.
(21:05):
Like I look at the relationship that I have with my parents and
to me that would be far more valuable than anything I would
get raising them. In my opinion, just to like to
see these people that you raisedand the effort that you put in
become adults and functioning members of society.
(21:26):
And also be, you know, like I don't want to say friends, but
like certainly some people that you want to share your life
with. Because I'm, you know, I'm not a
social person. I have very few friends and I'm
really only close with you and my family by choice, not for any
reason, anything like that. But no, I think that was a big
(21:46):
thing. Like, you know, we've gone to
concerts with my dad and I thinkthere is something innately
human about sharing things with your children in a way that
they're going to like, remember,you know what I mean?
Because obviously we all make childhood memories and we have,
you know, things that we go backto when we were kids.
(22:06):
But I think you really appreciate that a lot more as an
adult. And so I think that's really
what I, what I would miss would be later in life.
I think it's, you know, until they can walk and talk on their
own, like it's a lot of just care and exhaustion and like
it's work. I mean, I'm not I'm not trying
to take that away from it all. Like it's it's work having kids.
(22:29):
And I think that's you want to you want to see the output is
worth, you know, the juice is worth the squeeze if you will.
Like you want to make sure that all the effort you're putting
into this kid is going to end upwell.
And again, you see situations where there's people that are
great parents and raise shitty kids and then there's people
that are shitty parents and their kids do great to spite
(22:50):
them. And so I think that's a a big
thing is just not having that later in life.
Like I said, I don't know that like I, you know, kudos to my
dad and my mom for like when I played sports and everything you
figured for 10 years at least, probably closer to 12 or 13.
That was, you know, their whole free time was geared around
(23:14):
getting me to practice and doingtheir own things.
And so I think there's a a tremendous amount of sacrifice
that parents make for their kids.
And I just for me personally, I that I would have grown to
resent that at some point. Like I said, I'm very much a
creature of comfort and I'm like, I like my time, I like my
(23:34):
space. Like you don't get that when you
have a kid. It's just, I mean, without, you
know, leaving your partner in the lurch, if you will.
And so I just, and I think that's why I softened on the
ideas that the older I got that,you know, the more we got into
our late 20s and early 30s and Iwas like, I want to be like an
independent person, an independent adult.
(23:57):
And like just the, you don't getas many, if any opportunities to
do that. Like when you're a parent,
that's your job. Like that's your, that's your
job. That's your number one title.
That is like the most important thing.
It should. Yeah, of.
Course, if I was going to pursuesomething like that, that would
be my like, that's the way I would look at it.
(24:20):
Is it like that's the first mostimportant thing is take care of
the kid. Everything else falls in after
that, which I think is why a lotof a lot of people have kids to
try and save relationships is because there's a, you know,
there's a, a unifying factor there when your parents like
it's, I mean, I don't want to say US versus them, but like
(24:40):
it's you're a, you're a team that's working together towards
a, a, a joint shared goal. And so I think I think that's
why a lot of people do that. And there are people that are
successful. There are people that who have,
you know, probably wouldn't havestayed in a relationship, but
they had kids, they raised theirkids grade.
They're, you know, they turned out just fine.
Yeah. And I think, you know, we've
(25:02):
talked a lot about how challenging that is.
I just want to take a second to say like it's a very challenging
endeavor when you have any child, but especially it's
compounded if you've got a childwho has any kind of health
issues, mental health issues, kids who were born with or
developed disabilities. I mean, all of those factors
(25:22):
just kind of multiply whatever stress and care that you're
providing. So just wanted to point that out
too. Yeah, which I that wasn't even
something that factored in if wehad, you know, a kid that had,
you know, needs that were above and beyond.
That was something that I thought about a lot.
Which I honestly think probably would have motivated me more if
(25:44):
that makes sense. Like I would have had, you know,
much a much larger sense of, I'mnot going to put it like a, a
larger sense of just them needing me, like a a greater
sense of urgency or something like that.
That would have like would have made me more attuned to being a
parent. Whereas if it was like a, you
(26:05):
know, a smart kid that could function by themselves, just
kind of like, oh, you're, you'llfigure it out.
Like you're, you'll be good. You know what I mean?
Whereas there's a lot more involved with kids that have
other, other issues which you know, ranging from ADHD to, you
know, the, you know, there's a whole other.
Stuff that can be involved therefor sure.
(26:26):
I think the thing that I think I'll I would miss out.
I don't know if I even still feel this way, but when we were
trying to get pregnant and I couldn't like, I very much took
like seeing other pregnant womenor you know, seeing women with
babies. Like it was just something that
I really noticed during that time of my life.
(26:47):
The guy was just hyper aware or like even walking through
Walmart, like seeing little cutebaby clothes like that was
something that I don't want to say like really bothered me.
It was just something that definitely like caught my
attention in a way. But isn't that isn't part of
that like a physiological or hormonal, you know, they always
say like baby fever? Yeah.
And I don't, I don't really knowthe science to back up baby
(27:09):
fever. So I don't know how much of it
is like actual hormonal or how much of it's just like a
societal pressure that women of a certain age have the
expectation. And then when like all your
friends are having kids or your family members are having kids,
then. And I think there's something
like, you know, I've talked for about like, there's something in
our society, even though we do ahorrible job of, you know,
(27:30):
maternal health and keeping pregnant women happy, healthy
and alive, there is a pedestal that pregnant women on our side
are kind of placed on. Like they're very special.
And I think part of me thought because we didn't get married
where we had like a big wedding,that like, if I got pregnant,
this is not a motivator for me to get pregnant.
But I was thinking like, if we, you know, were successful and we
got pregnant, like, I would kindof get a chance to be the
(27:52):
special one for a little bit. And that sounds kind of sad now,
but it's just how I felt. No, I think that's a common
thread for a lot of people is that you, you get that like you
said, you get, you get a a very positive attention from pretty
much everybody. Yeah, everybody loves a I think
that's. Because from a societal
standpoint, like you're, you're fulfilling like the most
(28:13):
important job that you can fill.From a societal standpoint,
you're fulfilling by becoming a mother.
Yeah. And which, like I said, that's
again, their, you know, their gender expectations for men and
women are obviously drastically different, but there's a lot
more weight that gets put on, you know, a woman being a mother
versus a man being a father. And, and so I, I think that like
(28:35):
you said, I think there's a big societal encouragement for
people that can get pregnant to get pregnant.
Yeah, I think so too. So I think that was more
difficult for me. And I like babies where you
could go with that, like I thinkthe moment where birth.
To a four year old, like sold? Absolutely.
(28:55):
Way easier. No, I love a little baby.
A little newborn. They smell like fresh buttered
baby. Oh my gosh, they're so tiny and
perfect and precious. I love babies.
It's when they start talking that I'm like, OK, I'm good.
It's being a little mean. I don't like to get bullied by 4
(29:17):
year olds. And then my next question for
you would be, what aspects of our life do you think are better
because we could not and chose not?
I feel like it's kind of like a slash, like we couldn't slash
chose not because we don't know for sure if IVF would have
worked, but we didn't pursue that route.
(29:37):
So I think. No, but I mean, we've, we're to
point out we're like we're, we've made an active choice that
we're not, it's not something we're going to do.
Right. But it's not like we never
tried, is my thing. Like we tried for two years,
which is what insurance companies require before you can
pursue fertility treatment anyway.
So. So what aspects of our lives do
you think are better because. We didn't, I mean, that's a
(30:00):
loaded question because you never, you know, the grass is
always greener and you never, you never know for sure.
But I know I've like, it's the big reason I like, it's just the
freedom that we have to do stuff.
I mean, I look at, you know, ourfriends that are, that have kids
and they're always running around.
Like I said that, you know, the kids stuff is the most important
stuff. And it's, I mean, I'm, I'm
(30:21):
selfish when it comes to my time.
Like it's even if I'm, you know,objectively wasting it, it's my
time to waste. And so it would be, like I said,
just having the freedom to do that or to be, if we which not
that we're overly spontaneous people to begin with, but if we
wanted to just up and go do something on a whim like that
(30:43):
ain't happening with kids. That's like, we got to get the
baby seat in the car and get a bag packed and figure out what
the hell we're doing. Let's get loaded up and make
sure we have food and make sure we can get them to the bathroom.
And when are they going to nap? And are they?
And they're just an endless listof things that have to be, which
there's people out there that can do it.
Absolutely. Lots of people are doing it.
(31:03):
Beyond my abilities. Yeah, and I think and this isn't
a slight towards you in any way.So please tell me if I offend
you, but I think a lot of the mental load around, especially
before, like a kid could tell you what they need would
definitely have been on me, which like I said, I I like
babies, but I just think a lot of the do we pack this?
(31:27):
Do we pack that? Where's this keeping track of
things, keeping track of the schedule, all of that piece of
it would have been on me. And not because you're not, you
know, a partner in this, but just naturally, like my brain
attunes to that kind of stuff even.
We do that anyway. Yeah, even with the dogs.
(31:48):
And stuff, you know, you plan everything out.
I'm much more kind of go with the flow and not that I like you
said, not that I don't want to plan things.
Or not that you couldn't. I don't want to say you enjoy
planning things, but it's definitely you you get something
from. I think there's a catharsis for
you in being able to plan thingsout.
And so it works out better for both of us that I don't have to
(32:10):
worry about stuff and you can plan things the way that you
want to plan them. And I think that works out just
fine. And so, yeah, I don't think with
a child that would have changed.No, but that's what I'm saying.
Is that in addition to the management I do of like the pets
and everything like I would havebeen the main manager?
No, that's. What I'm saying, yes, it would
have been. I'm saying that's already the
(32:31):
dynamic And so I don't I don't see why that would have changed.
No, but that's what I'm saying is that that would have been
extra work for me where you would have had obviously your
own set of stressors and things about the scenario of having a
child that would have been difficult for you.
But I think in the big picture, like the mental load of it would
(32:52):
have definitely landed on me. Which I do want to backtrack a
little bit just to that was a part of the reason we moved to
where we moved to was we were. Looking to be.
When we were looking to move outof Mason Town and buy a new
house, we were trying to find somewhere that was either close
to your parents or close to where because at the time my
parents hadn't moved up, but that was, that was the plan.
(33:13):
We knew that essentially by the time the child would need a
babysitter, my parents would likely be in the area that we
ended up moving to, which like Isaid, they're, you know, 7
minutes down the road from us now.
And so that was a built in is childcare.
And the cost of childcare was a huge thing I think we didn't
touch on. So I wanted to speak onto it
(33:35):
right now because I remember, you know, when I was still
living up here by myself, you know, our manager there, his
wife, you know, was contemplating going back to
work, but it like she wouldn't have made enough money to.
Cover. To cover because it was
basically like $10,000 a child and so like, yeah, she could
have gone back to work and wouldn't have made more than 20
(33:57):
grand. And so at that point why she's
going to go work to make less money essentially.
Like that way she can stay home,you know, who's raising the
kids? Because that would be a thing
that would get me was like trusting other people.
Like, you know, our parents and stuff are different, but like
essentially strangers with our kids would be difficult for me.
Yeah, And just to note, if you're a mom and you choose to
(34:21):
go back to work and your paycheck is solely to that
daycare, but that works for yourfamily and it works for you and
it gives you a break and a chance to kind of have that
space for yourself, that's also a very valid option.
But for that family that you're talking about, they didn't
ultimately choose that like they.
(34:43):
Children are not one-size-fits-all.
It's going to be different for everybody.
But in that case, they, like I said, it didn't make sense in
their minds to do that. And so they didn't end up doing
it. But that was, like I said, that
was a I think neither of us was really super committed to the
idea of having a kid unless we could have essentially free
(35:03):
child care. Yeah, with people that we trust.
Yeah, yeah, that's funny. Obviously it wasn't just like
Opie. I mean.
Free health care other than withmy grandparents.
It's a stranger that I'm giving my baby to.
That wouldn't be the case. But I think that was a big
driver for us because again, we had a, you know, I had friends
that I'd work with where they weren't, they weren't actively
(35:24):
trying to prevent it. And they had their first child
and luckily both sets of their parents live there.
And so they always had, you know, built in family childcare,
which I think is huge, is a massive, a massive help.
Makes a huge difference. Yeah, for sure.
Which that's again, you know, our other friends, it's kind of
the same way. Both of their parents are, are
here essentially full time. And so they really don't have to
(35:48):
worry that much if they do need to go do something.
If they can't take one or all ofthe kids to like I can, you
know, I don't worry about finding a random babysitter.
I can just like take them over to the grandparents house.
Yeah. So, yeah, that was a factor in
US choosing to move here with the vision of having kids or at
least one while once we were here.
(36:08):
Thank you for bringing that up because I totally.
No, yeah, I said. We were talking about stuff
earlier and I wanted to make it a point because I'm sure a lot
of people feel same way. Yeah, it's super expensive.
It's like a mortgage payment. And then, yeah, you talked a
little bit about our spontaneity, which like you
said, we're not super spontaneous people.
We do have pets that require sitting if we're going somewhere
(36:31):
overnight, but. Yeah.
No, but that's something like the big trip that we're planning
here at the end of the summer. I mean, the logistics of that
are already difficult for two ofus and we're like roughing it in
a manner of speaking, like adding a kid to that.
They're like, we'd have to have a camp.
Like there's no way we'd be ableto do this without like a, you
know what I mean? An RV or something like that to
be able to get them strapped in and get them around in and, and
(36:53):
everything else. And so that, like, I mean, that
wouldn't have been impossible, but yeah.
It would have been an extra factor.
For, you know, 10 years. And I think too for me, like
just in the day-to-day, if I've had a rough day at work or am I
not having a good mental health day, like not having to fake my
way through the evening with a kid, no.
(37:16):
I think, 'cause we had talked about it where I think if one of
us had a bad day and the other one was OK, we would have been
great at like tag teaming as faras like, oh, like you just don't
have the bandwidth today. Like, I'll take care of it.
It would have been if we had both had bad days.
Like I think that would have been a grind.
And I think I would have been the default person to have to
(37:38):
like put that aside in parent. Yeah, most likely.
Yeah, there's nothing against you.
I just. No, I was just.
Saying, I think that's again, just a societal thing, like it's
you're more equipped with the tools.
I don't know that I'm more equipped with the tools, I just
think that I am much more used to having to fake my way through
(38:02):
whatever I'm going through, if that makes sense.
Like no. But that's, I mean, that's why I
said that is because I think there's women have, I don't want
to say an expectation, but your,your, your life from a societal
standpoint kind of hardens your skin for that purpose.
Does that make any sense? Like it's like we put more
pressure on you and we expect a lot more of you and all this
(38:24):
other stuff. I think the expectation is
because that will make you a stronger mother.
And I'm not saying I agree with it at all.
I'm just saying. In general.
I think that there's, like I said, there's just a a lot more,
I don't know how to put it. I mean, I think you're just
better. I mean, I think better equipped
is. I would say better trained.
(38:45):
No, that's, I mean, that's fair.Yeah, that's fair.
You're better trained. Yeah, equipped makes it sound
like it's something you're born with, and I don't think that's
necessarily true, I think. No, but I mean, I just had
equipped as far as, like I said,society has essentially worked
these tools into you and that was just why I chose equipped is
just because it's your, it is something external.
(39:07):
Like when you equip something, you're taking something external
and putting it on. And I think that is what you,
you know, that's like why we give, you know, girls dollies
when they're three years old. It's all like it's all a
training exercise. And so I think that's just the
default expectation is that thatwould happen to people.
(39:27):
I think I just also, I would just, I would get so frustrated
that it would probably become mycounterproductive exercise.
Yes, we've met your father. Uh huh.
Speaking of your father, did youever feel any like, pressure
from your side of the family to have kids or anybody like making
you feel bad when she said we couldn't?
No, I mean, I think they always expected.
(39:49):
I think they very much wanted tobe grandparents just because
that's a special relationship that you have with people.
And you were always super close with your grandparents.
Me as well that we're. Talking about, I mean, the
grandparents that I knew, yeah, we were always which that's
again, I mean that was, you know, when we moved back to
Baltimore from where we're at now, that I mean, that was the
(40:11):
only reason we were able to was because my grandparents were
there to. Which, like I said, goes back to
what we were talking about earlier.
You know, if my, if my grandparents hadn't been there
to essentially, you know, take care of me and my brother when
my mom was working like that, never would have worked.
Yeah. But you don't feel like nobody's
like said anything, Yeah. I mean, I think there was AI
(40:35):
mean they were a little bummed. I think what we told them, but I
don't I've never felt like maligned for for not having
kids. It's never been like a, you
know, I've never heard any, you know, backhanded comments or
anything like that. It was very much a respect of
like, oh, you know, kind of like, oh, we were hoping to be
(40:55):
grandparents, but like, we get it, you know what I mean?
I've never, I've never seen that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I never have either with
your family or my family for that matter.
But yeah, I mean, I think the only piece that I feel guilty
about is like feeling like we'vedeprived our parents on that
experience. Like I feel more, I feel worse
(41:17):
about that than I do than I everwill about my experience of not
having a kid. Does that make sense?
Yeah, which, I mean, at least your parents have a grandchild.
I'm doubting that my parents aregonna have biological
grandchildren. Yeah, which I mean, I said I
feel bad for them, but it's at the end of the day like they're
(41:38):
still not your kids that like it's not, I'm not going to do
something that's going to be detrimental to me.
No for sure, and they would never expect you to.
No, no, no. That's what I'm saying, but I
just don't. But they would just be like
great grandparents, you know what I mean?
Like that, that piece of. It and I think like goes back to
like what you'll miss out on having is that, you know, the
(41:59):
idea of, you know, there's been a couple things I can remember
from being a kid where you have like these generational moments
where you have you know, well, Imean, for me, it never could
have been more than three generations.
But I know you know, I know people that I work with that
are, you know, they'll have fouror five generations all alive at
the same time. And that's kind of wild when you
think about it, is having that many like different sets of the
(42:22):
same DNA all hanging out together.
That's pretty wild. And so, yeah, I mean, that's a
little bum that that won't be the case.
But like I said, I also don't it's also the world that we live
in is very much different too. Yeah, absolutely.
Said. I think if it had been 20 years
earlier, it had been a differentconversation.
(42:45):
That's fair. I also like never really was
very fortunate to not. I feel pressured from my family
about it. And after we, you know, found
out we'd have to do IVF, we decided not to do that.
And I had told like specificallyhad told my mom and my Nana that
we weren't able to have kids. No family member ever asked me
(43:09):
again. So I feel like on the background
they must have done some like Recon of like, hey, they can't
like don't bring it up, which I appreciate because this is an
awkward. I think your nanny, I probably
asked a couple times. She probably did, but I never
like heard it from anybody else on that side of the family.
So I think once we said we can't, that there must have
(43:29):
been, you know, backdoor conversations that were
happening, which I am very grateful for because the least
amount of people that I have to have that conversation with is
very, very much helpful to me. It's, I don't know, I think it
definitely feels different for me than it does for you.
Like to be asked like, oh, do you have any kids?
No, but that's, I mean, like I said, that goes back to just
societal expectations, you know,and gender norms and that kind
(43:52):
of thing. I think there's just an
expectation, like I said, that is from a societal standpoint,
that is the most important job any human has is to be a mother.
Like I'm just simply not equipped.
Like I said, I'm a guy. I can't be a mother.
That's physically impossible. And so I think there's so much
(44:14):
there's a a reverence for women in that very like abstract way
of looking at like we don't wantto treat women like human
beings, right, Unless they're going to be a mother.
And then somehow like I have this, I don't want to say
respect, but it's. Not respect for sure.
It's like I said, it's like thispedestal thing, but it is all
(44:39):
like the facade. Does that make sense?
Like we're not going to do research, we're not going to
fund things, we're not going to provide you with the resources
that you need, but on like a very skin deep face value level,
like pregnant women are beautiful.
Like it's very. But I think, I think so much of
(45:01):
that is because men can't. And so in a society where men
control pretty much everything that's you can't, you have no
way of controlling. Like I can try and put laws in
place and discourage you from having kids or I can outlaw
abortion or I can do whatever I want, but I can't, I mean me
saying I just like men can't change the machinations that
(45:23):
women have in place to have kids.
Like so it's not at the end of the day, like you're the only
person that can choose whether or not you actually have kids.
I can, I can put Rd. box in the place.
But if that's something that youwant to do, I can't stop you.
And I so I think it's, it's not a reverence, but it's like I
said, there's a almost a fear init that is just like I said,
(45:46):
that's something I can't control.
I just want, I want women to have all the kids, but I can't
make them do that. I mean, they're doing a great
job of making. No, like I said, you can put,
you can put a ton of roadblocks and stepping stones and red tape
and whatever you want to do that.
But at the end of the day, that's that's just not something
(46:07):
that you have control over. I understand the point you're
trying to make. I think they have the ultimate
control over it, no? But I'm saying they can't
though. They can't.
They can't walk down the street,look at a woman and say you're
going to get pregnant like that.I can't do that.
OK. I mean, I get where you're
coming from that somebody could attempt to make that happen for
(46:29):
sure, but that at the end of theday, that's not like they can't
just wave a magic wand and just you're having a baby right now.
That's fair. I'm with you in the magic wand
analogy. I just think some of the other
language, not in the way you intended is like, you know,
(46:50):
they're doing, they're doing a pretty bang up job of deciding
when and how and where women aregetting pregnant and giving
birth. So I think they're they're
taking a really good swing on trying to work.
Out. But that's what I mean, though,
that's all. All that stuff is a projection
because they know that they theycan't like, so they're going to
take every step they can to try and do that, but they can't.
(47:11):
Like, they can't make that just happen like it's not.
By their sheer will. Yes.
That's fair. All right.
Anything else you want to lay down on this topic?
All. Right.
It's kind of a heavy 1. I feel like we're far enough
removed from it now that I don'tget like emotional about it like
(47:32):
I used to. I think the only thing that
bothers me, like we said, was like our grandparents or our
parents aren't going to be grandparents for us.
So I think that's the only thingthat still bothers me, which
like I said, is never anything any of them have ever mentioned
and or said. This is just coming from me
personally. We've been very fortunate to
(47:54):
have very understanding familieswho don't, you know, pressure us
or give us a hard time about it.All right, anything else, my
dear? All right, you want to take us
all out? Thanks for listening this week
to Meandered millennials. Hope you like, comment, share,
(48:15):
subscribe. All the things on all the
socials, go ahead and do them. Lets us know you appreciate what
we're doing. Yeah, and if you hung out this
long, you can hear Raleigh and Ichew on two additional little
digits of information. One is usually easier to answer
than the other. So what?
What media or experience? I think I'm going to open it up
(48:35):
so it's not just media. What experience did you have
this week that you would like toshare with the class?
I'm going with media anyway because the.
New Oh OK then I was giving. You an episode came out.
Yeah, the fish Fishhoder opus. Yes, it's a Fishhoder episode.
It's always fun. Always Kevin Klein.
Hilarious, hilarious. It's Calvin Fishhoder.
(48:58):
Felix Wild, as usual. But yeah, it was a very Felix or
I'm sorry, very Fishhoder heavy episode.
But again, I it's the themes. There's just such a great
underlying theme about, you know, being yourself and being
true to yourself. And like I said, they always,
they always tie that stuff in and give you like a real, a real
(49:19):
life lesson to walk away with. And so I appreciate that.
It was a very good episode. I'm just glad Bob's is back on.
Absolutely. About to say.
And now that Bob's is back on folks, that will probably be at
least one of our medias of the week every week while there's no
upsets coming out. Yeah, which?
One is this week. I'm not sure when they're
supposed to. Maybe because it's a holiday
they didn't drop 1? I'm trying to think, I think
(49:39):
last year they did that. They didn't drop it holiday on
Hulu. They would do 2.
Like there would be like a two week lag and then you would get
one episode or two episodes. I don't remember exactly how it
worked, but I remember I vaguelyremember there being a lag from
when it's live because we obviously don't have live
television. We do not.
So there's a bit of Hulu. What about you?
(50:03):
I'm going to take my own out andnot do media.
On Saturday I hung out with two of my very best friends at
Sangarun Park and they had like a Wellness day.
And for only 25 doll hairs. We got to do yoga.
Learn about making your own herbal teas and foraging like
local native plants. Where we live there was a forest
(50:26):
bathing class, a nature journaling class, and a
watercolor class for 25 bucks. We were there for the whole day.
It was like adult day camp. It was a true delight, just a
bunch of ladies hanging out. Yeah.
What a treat. What a dream.
Yeah. No, that was, I know for sure
that one of your friends was doing that specifically to
escape her kids. So not specifically, but that
(50:51):
was definitely a. Bonus a bonus, yeah.
To hang out with adults all day?Yes, yes, I agree.
And what was the best thing you ate this week?
Oh, Mom made homemade banana pudding.
Oh my God, it. Was so good it.
Was so good, like the first bite.
I was like, dear Lord, she made it with gluten free wafer
(51:13):
cookies and Oh my gosh, it was so good.
You're not even a huge banana guy for like.
A See, I love banana flavor. Yeah, I don't like the texture
of a banana. Like you're not going to bite
into a banana. It's fleshy and gummy and.
Delicious. Not for me so good.
Now, like I said, if you cook itand reduce it down like I could
(51:33):
eat it like we have that brulee.I think that was last week's
that I picked. It was the brulee banana which
also did inspire us having banana banana pudding.
And inspired a conversation between you, your mom, and your
brother about how she could MacGyver a banana cream cheese
because. That's what I was going to ask
for for my birthday because my mom always makes for her loved
(51:59):
ones. She will make whatever kind of
cake, dessert you want for your birthday.
She will make that for you. And so I kind of dragged my feet
until the last minute with picking out the menu this year.
And so I just had her make a, a cheesecake.
She's makes a phenomenal cheesecake.
Just a regular, I don't know if you would call it New York style
or not, but she makes like a just a standard cheesecake and
(52:21):
they're delicious. She's got it figured out.
She got that recipe dialed. And so I used to do turtle
cheesecake was one of my go to'sfor her birthday.
No, I was thinking about this, about doing like a banana cream
pie cheesecake, which I think Cheesecake Factory does make
(52:42):
one. I don't know if I've had it
before or not, but I'm pretty sure they do.
But having that in a cheesecake,but I didn't want to have her on
short notice try and figure out,you know, how to do that.
And so, yeah, she made the banana pudding and it was super
good. And so I was like, hey, do you
think maybe we could figure out how to put this in a cheesecake?
(53:03):
And she was like, yeah, for sure, yeah, that's a good deal.
So we got a, we got a game plan figured out now.
So we'll just need a another event, another reasoned excuse
to make a banana cream pie cheesecake.
Yeah, absolutely. What about you?
Trying to see the menu what we ate list.
(53:24):
Which I mean everything we ate. Gosh, we eat so many burgers.
We had burgers Thursday, Friday,and then we had burgers at your
mom's house yesterday. So many burgers.
It's. Memorial Day and that's burgers.
Burgers. The whole burgers you cook out.
Burgers I think I will go with the jalapeno popper potato salad
(53:45):
I made. Just got 2 little containers
like little potato company potatoes that are microwavable
because I'm lazy and microwave those.
Wait for them to cool down, cut them in half block.
Cream cheese, some shredded cheese of unknown origin.
I don't know what kind of put inthere.
It's either cheddar or Colby Jack bacon.
(54:05):
Like real bacon bit things and Icut up two like raw jalapenos
and diced them up, put them in there and they were not that
spicy. I don't know why.
I know you didn't try it becauseyou don't love a cold potato,
but they really weren't spicy. I thought I could have added, I
could have had another one in there maybe, I don't know.
(54:25):
But had that yesterday. Took it to the cookout, brought
my leftovers home, heated it up so it was like a warm potato
casserole. I made that shit for breakfast.
I love breakfast. Best meal of the day?
I never eat. Breakfast I know you don't it's
rules are to me I. Just not a big eating a whole
(54:47):
bunch of stuff in the morning. I mean, sometimes over the
weekend like I'll have. Oatmeal or something?
Yeah, yeah. A little protein shake.
I'm not a big large breakfast eater typically.
I am dude. All the potatoes, all the eggs.
I'm also not a morning person, so that's a lot of work.
Yeah. To eat.
Yeah, on the weekends I'm generally up like 2 to 3 hours
before you are doing animal tours.
(55:11):
Which Speaking of the animals, we took Nixie and Duncan on a
WALK today and they have been pooped all afternoons.
They like slept through this whole recording, which never
happens. There's usually some level of
shenanigans and interruptions and they are out, which I am
appreciative. Of she was tired, I think just
because we were in that. Just a metal, yeah.
(55:33):
I think yeah, she. Was she's an all black dog if
you've seen the pictures on Instagram and she gets warm.
Quick. Yeah, she was panting pretty
quickly so. All right, well that kind of
wraps us up. Next week, episode 12, we'll be
talking about our first car camping experience, an episode
I've titled Car Camping or Car Glamping.
(55:53):
Question mark Did you feel glamorous car camping?
I don't know that glamorous is the word that I would use all.
Right, we got to step up our game.
So yeah, that'll be the next episode.
This episode airs on June 26th, and the following episode will
be airing on July 3rd. Wow, I guess July 4th is a
(56:14):
Friday this year. Yeah, it is, which is nice
because that way I don't have totake an extra day.
I get a free three day weekend. Three day weekend much?
Like this weekend. Yeah, which it sucks.
Now it's Monday. It is Monday.
Sounds like Sunday. I know only four days to work
next week, so that's a benefit. That is a benefit.
That is a plus. All right, dude, you want to
take us out? Bye.
It is 7:08 PM on May 26th, 2025 here in Central Appalachia.
I'm Raleigh. And I'm Ray and.
We are the meandering millennials.
We are two mid 30s millennials here to talk about our lives,
travelling, homesteading skills,dogs, catch chickens, cooking,
creating and any other topics that might spark our interest
(00:38):
today. You are tuning in to episode 11
and it is titled DINK which is an acronym standing for double
income, No kids. We could probably add a couple
more letters like but as many dogs as your husband will let
you have. Yeah, throw some cats in
chickens to seal the deal. I just want to say real quick
(00:58):
that it is Memorial Day and so thank you to all the service
members out there, present and past, future, etcetera.
Appreciate your service. Yeah, just want to get that out
there. OK, Appreciate it.
Very nice. Happy Memorial Day.
So before we dig into this topicthat might be a little sensitive
(01:19):
for people, we're going to be talking about infertility and
kind of our journey of why we don't have kids.
So listen, at your own discretion.
If that's something that you're going through and it's kind of
sensitive or just something you're not interested in, feel
free to skip this one. All right?
What are you drinking today there, Raleigh?
(01:41):
I'm drinking a dead Billionaire by Little Death, which is half
tea, half lemonade, and that's II love that they changed this
because there's a funny story about that.
They used to be called Armless Palmers as a play on the Arnold
Palmer, which I guess he was a famous golfer that originated
the half and half. Half.
(02:01):
Tea half lemonade. His estate sued Liquid Death
because they called it Armless Palmer and they were like OK
cool. And so they changed the name to
Dead Billionaire, which I think is much funnier.
I honestly wish I would have saved some of the cans that said
Armless Palmers on them. But yeah, it's half tea half
(02:24):
lemonade. They use agave to sweeten it and
it is very good. What are you drinking?
I had a little, it's not a panicbuy but impulsive buy at the
Walmart today and was going through.
I've been just hounding down thelime liquid deaths that you buy
(02:44):
for yourself. So I thought I should probably
purchase for you this time. Oh, did you get in for me this
time? Thank you.
Well, I felt bad about drinking all of them, so I grabbed a case
of Waterloo Ruby Red Tangerine sparkling water, and it's pretty
good. I don't think I've had that
particular flavor before. And yeah, I like it.
I like a sparkling water. I like a carbonated drink.
(03:07):
I like the way the bubbles feel and the back of my throat.
It's very sensory experience. Which yeah, we did.
Try the Sprite plus T. Oh, earlier Sprite flea.
Which? Was as you thought, I I another
impulse 5. The Instagram ad got me and I
was looking for it specifically to try 'cause I know you like
Arnold Palmer. So I thought it'd be kind of
(03:28):
like a spin on that and saw it and bought it.
I said, oh, I got something for us to try.
When I got home from Walmart. I showed it to you and you said
with your whole chest. In all seriousness, Sprite.
Flea. What is Sprite Flea?
It's Sprite plus T, but I look. At that now, but I hadn't seen.
I didn't know that. Product that they were.
(03:49):
Coming out with I didn't know itwas anything new.
I haven't caught it and on the label it says like a normal
Sprite label and they have a small brown like banner below.
It. That has plus T and a yellow
font and the fancy like cross onthe top of the capital T almost
met the plus. And so I just saw Flea and I was
(04:12):
like, oh, maybe the basis for Red Hot Chili Peppers is going
to collaboration with with Sprite.
I was wrong. I realized it was Sprite plus
tea. Yeah, tea flavored, not flea
flavored. Well, that's why I thought it
was a weird marketing ploy by Coca-Cola, but alas, I just
misread it. Or they miss real opportunity.
(04:36):
Yeah, Sprite Flea. Sprite Flea.
All right. Well, that was good.
Yeah, it was good. I mean.
No, that's why I said to you it tastes like kombucha without the
Tang. That's fair.
We're not huge soda people. We prefer like regular water,
sparkling water. But every once in a while, we'll
I. Think we do get Sprite though.
It's usually like a lemon lime soda if we are going to get.
(04:58):
One, yeah, if we go to like FiveGuys or something has a fountain
where there's sometimes where I just don't feel good and I just
want a fountain Sprite. Or if I have a migraine, I need
a fountain Coke. Full fat, full fat Coke.
Everything helps, you said that works really well for you as far
as like a temporary relief of symptoms.
Yeah. Some Coca-Cola.
Yep. All.
Right, you're ready. The cocaine.
(05:19):
The cocaine, that's what helps. You ready to dig into these?
Yeah. All right, I think I'll start
talking and then if you wanna chime in when you have something
to add at work. Yes it does.
All right, perfect. So I guess I'll start with
question for you. So I just lied about everything
I was gonna say. Did you think you would always
(05:41):
have children? Like as you grew up, did you
just assume that that was going to be?
Yeah. I mean, I think that's a
societal expectation that it's just like you, you know, you go
to high school, you go to college, you get a job, you have
a family. Yeah.
And so that was always somethingthat I just assumed was going to
happen in the normal course of your life.
But was it something that you like look forward to, or was it
just something you were like, this is a box that I'll be
(06:04):
checking at some point? I mean more the latter.
It wasn't like I think, but I think again, for I think for men
it's different. The like the societal pressures
and ideals of having kids are more like you're a participant,
certainly, but I don't know thatit's like your adult life
doesn't revolve around having kids, I think even nearly as
(06:29):
much as what is expected for women.
That's fair. Yeah.
And you're not like a huge kids person either.
Like if we're at a friends house, I have kids or like my
nephew comes over. You do great in short spurts,
but I think. The incessant questions and just
like kids are stupid. It's not their fault.
(06:49):
They're just dumb. Like they just don't have the
knowledge. I have very little time for
that, like for adults, but like I said, with kids, it's like
they don't even have the vocabulary for half of this
stuff. Like so it's not even if I were
to try to explain something to them, I'd have to explain 30
other things to get my point across.
(07:10):
And I just who has the time for that?
Not me. Yeah, so no one will be asking
us to babysit anytime soon. Which honestly?
I mean you, they'll ask you. You're great at babysitting.
I'm not with kids when you were younger.
I'm good at faking faking it till I'm making it till they
smell the fear on me. To answer my own question, I did
(07:32):
not think I would have kids. Yeah, I remember when we first
got together, you like, didn't like, didn't want, like active.
Kids were like. I don't want them.
And I was like, Oh well, I wouldlike I would like them.
And then we at a certain point we kind of two ships passing in
the night. You were more on the Let's Have
Kids train and I was like, good,that doesn't sound great.
(07:58):
Yeah, doesn't sound like the most fun.
I think I was coming from a place where I had never had a
relationship with someone that Ithought, like, I could see
myself having kids with or that I could trust enough.
Yeah, to like, be a partner in parenting with.
And so you had obviously proven very early on, you know, once we
(08:18):
had pets that you are very, for as anxious as I am, like you're
very trustworthy and you take like my concerns seriously.
And so I think that's kind of where it switched for me, where
I was like, if I'm going to like, you're the only person
that I would trust enough to go through that life changing
process with. And then at the same time you're
(08:40):
having this, hey, the world's kind of changing.
And I don't know that this is. That was that.
And also just as adults, it's not like we're like we weren't
super well all like we both wentto college and had student loans
and you know, we bought a house,but it was a starter house.
And I think, well, would we pay for what was Mason Town like
$45,000? So it's not like it was or 65.
(09:03):
I'm sorry, $65,000. That's right.
I think the first one you lookedat with your grandfather like
they had stolen all the copper and stuff out was like 45,000
because you had started looking before I did.
Like you were just going to lookfor a house because you were
renting crappy apartments in Morgantown.
And we, like you looked around and were like, oh, I can get
(09:23):
rent. Like I can get a mortgage for
cheaper than what I can get rent.
Yeah. Which we'll do an episode all
about how home owning and the. Pluses and the contents for that
for something before I did. But I think once we had bought
that house, I was kind of like, OK, this feels like an
opportunity to start. And you were like I this doesn't
(09:44):
feel. Well, it was probably 'cause I'm
trying to remember where I was working.
We were probably there for two years or so.
Yeah. And then you were like, oh, we
should probably. Not getting any younger.
Yeah, do that if we're gonna. So that's.
Probably about 28 ish. Yeah, 'cause I kind of was like,
well, we'll, we'll wait till we're 30.
And I was like, cool, cool, cool.
(10:05):
That looks different for me thanit does for you.
Like for women, that looks different.
So ultimately we did decide to wait until we had moved to where
we live now, which was in springof 2020.
And then we started attempting to see if we could get pregnant
and. I said.
I think we started actively not trying to prevent it.
(10:28):
That's fair, yeah. Like you didn't, you just
stopped taking birth control andwe weren't using protection and
we were just like, if it happens, it happened.
Like, yeah, but I mean, we had known people that had like
accident, not accidentally, but like they weren't overly
planning on having it. But they weren't taking steps
and it happened and they were obviously happy.
They weren't disappointed that it happened because they would
have been, you know, taking active steps if you.
(10:50):
Prevent what they wanted. But I, Yeah, so we weren't
trying to prevent it at that point.
And I think after about a year of no luck, I was starting to
like, test my ovulation and justkind of like doing the at home
things that you can do to kind of see what's going on and
(11:11):
ultimately make a long story. Short, short, short, short.
Went to the gynecologist that some testing, was told that
really the only pathway forward for us at that point would be
through IVF, which neither of us, neither one of us, I don't
think wanted a baby so badly that we were willing to go down
(11:35):
that path. No, I think it's also IVF is its
own, it's, I mean, a, it's very expensive.
B, the likelihood for you havingmultiples and or issues like
complications like go up exponentially.
And so I think we weren't, we weren't willing to pay that much
(11:56):
to take that risk, if that makessense.
And also there's no guarantee. So it's what I think it's like
10 grand it's. Way more than that now.
I think. It's like I know 30 to 50.
I think at the time it was like 10,000 per treatment and like I
said, so this would have been probably 6-7 years ago.
So and I think also like just the like you said, the
(12:18):
affordability of it is like having a baby on its own was out
of our price range to be honest.Like we would had to really
crunch for budgeting. We certainly didn't have an
extra 3040 grand laying around because often times, like you
said, it takes multiple rounds to be successful with that.
And also, I just had zero interest in the emotional roller
(12:39):
coaster of getting your hopes upand all of the testing.
And I would had to probably go to Morgantown for all of that,
for all these appointments and then shooting, you know,
hormones into myself. My, as we've talked before, you
know, like my mental health is ahuge priority for me and
something that's a very delicatebalance.
And I thought, man, adding that extra hormones and stress, I
(13:05):
just didn't think was going to be worth it in the end, to be
honest. Yeah, Yeah.
And then so that was about 2021.And then obviously in 2022, Roe
V Wade was overturned. And I think that day I said to
(13:25):
you when you got home from work,I'm done.
Like, I don't want to try. I don't want to, you know, we
need to take steps to prevent this now because heaven forbid
something happened and I do become pregnant.
And it is complicated. We the closest trauma center
that I would realistically be shipped off to is in a state
(13:45):
that had made abortion illegal even whenever, you know, the
mother's health is really at risk.
And unfortunately, we've had some people close to us who have
gone through really horrible situations where there were
babies that were very much wanted, but because of a genetic
issue or something, just a complication, had to really jump
(14:09):
through a lot of hoops to get the care that they needed to be
able to continue to live their lives as humans, as adults,
through no fault of anybody's. But that process just became
infinitely more complicated and scary and I did not want to lose
(14:30):
my life bleeding in the parking lot of a hospital because I
couldn't get access to healthcare that I needed at the
time. So that really like nail in the
coffin for me felt especially ifyou know, you talk about
complications with IVF, you know, the risk effect topic,
pregnancy or having complications is increased at
(14:51):
that point. And then it just didn't feel
like a gamble that I was willingto take anymore.
Yeah, which I think we had kind of tapered off.
Like I think we had stopped actively trying at that.
Point. Yeah, I think and.
Then you were just like now, like we're 1000% we're done.
Like we're going to actively take.
Like we need to tell people if they're asking, like we need to
tell our parents that it's not going to happen.
(15:15):
So ultimately, yeah, we made thedecision not to move forward
with IVF. I, I, you still to this day
think that was the right decision.
That decision was made prior to Roe V.
Wade being overturned. So that really solidified it.
Yeah. And we had briefly talked at one
point. Well, I had talked, You had
listened about fostering kids. And, you know, I have like, a
(15:40):
huge heart and always just want to help.
But even that process started tofeel really like overwhelming
and stressful and, you know, having the animals that we have
and living in the location that we're in, and it just didn't
feel like it was going to be theright choice for our family
either. So kind of put that one to bed
(16:01):
as well. Yeah, I was always leery of, of
adoption just because you don't know, like you don't know.
I mean, there's always, you know, nature versus nurture.
There's always still a genetic, like there's always a genetic
proponent to kids. And so you don't know what would
have happened. And even around here, you could
(16:22):
have had, you know, kids that were born, you know, addicted to
illicit substances or, and that was part of it too.
It was actually a person that I had worked with at the time.
They had fostered a child and raised her from when she was, I
think a newborn until she was like 2 And in the, the state
(16:44):
that the child's mother was in, like they were able to fight to
try and get custody back. Like the mother had gone through
whatever the court deemed her necessary to go through to get
her child back. And so now, you know, they have
this child that they've, you know, emotionally invested in
and like could have just lost her to, you know, arguably a
(17:07):
probably not great, at least a worse situation than what they
were providing. And so like to jump through all
those hoops and to do Foster andthen to just not know about the
kid. And I just think something
selfish in me was always like, if it's not like if it's not my
DNA, if it's not my like genetics, like I'm not going to
(17:29):
be as invested. OK.
That's very vulnerable for you to share.
Thank you for sharing that. Which because I had, you know,
you and I had talked when we couldn't have kids about if I
like would go like if you would be OK with me, like going to
donate sperm or something like that.
I totally forgot about that. Just because I, I, it was like I
said, I think there's a primordial drive for that, like
(17:53):
just to, you know, to spread your seed to get your genetic
material out there. Which I was not OK with and you
were very respectful of that. No.
And like I said, I just asked from a standpoint I've since saw
like all that I just the world that we occupy.
I'm not, I'm not overly worried about any of that.
(18:14):
I'm not, it's not something thatI, I have a big drive for, like
carrying on my family's legacy or you know, however you want to
put it. That was, that's something that
I've like I said, it wasn't likeI was super convicted on it
anyway. Right.
It was just something you're talking it.
Was just something I wasn't likeI said I was still figuring out
for myself like where I stood with that and yeah, I mean, I
(18:35):
just. I don't fostering always just
seems like I said you don't know.
I don't know. Like I said, if if something.
Happens. But like I said, again, there's,
you know, you see, you know, people that are great parents
and then their kids turn out shitty.
Even when it's their kids. Yeah, no, that's what I mean.
So you just don't know. And so like, yeah, like if we
(18:55):
had brought a, you know, a kid into the house, which I think it
would have been different if they're like young, young.
But like you said, like there's a lot of hoops to jump to.
Like there's a lot of understandably so absolutely
think we need to like as the government, like you need to
put, you need to do a lot of vetting and make sure you're
getting, you know, children intohomes that are good for them.
(19:17):
And so I'm I'm 100% on board with that, but it's just, it's a
lot of stuff you have to go through like you have to go to
classes and do certification and.
And ultimately, ultimately the goal with fostering is unit is
reunification with the biological family.
Like that is the overall goal. So you have to go into it
understanding that the goal is that you are kind of providing a
(19:39):
safe environment for this kid while mom and or dad figure out
how to get back on track so thatthey're able or even like an
aunt, uncle, grandparent are able to take custody so that the
child is reunified with their biological families.
The ultimate goal. And like you said, you weren't
super important with it. I wasn't willing to like I
(20:01):
wasn't so passionate about it that I thought I needed to
convince you. And it also feels like a thing
that like. Unless both people are super
enthusiastic and on board then it's not worth trying to pursue
I. Just feel like you're going to
end up presenting each. Other Yeah, that's what I mean.
Like, it wasn't worth it to me to try to keep pushing you about
(20:24):
the topic when you clearly were not enthusiastic about it.
And you never want to have, you know, a kid in an environment.
Not that I think you would actively be frustrated or like,
take quote UN quote, take it outon a child, but I think kids are
very, like, perceptive and you're not a huge kid person to
begin with. So it just wasn't worth trying
(20:45):
to pursue at that point. Yeah.
All right. Do you think that there's
anything we are going to miss out on by not having kids?
Yeah. I mean, I think there's always
something. I think it's more the the idea
of kids for me is better when they're adults.
(21:05):
Like I look at the relationship that I have with my parents and
to me that would be far more valuable than anything I would
get raising them. In my opinion, just to like to
see these people that you raisedand the effort that you put in
become adults and functioning members of society.
(21:26):
And also be, you know, like I don't want to say friends, but
like certainly some people that you want to share your life
with. Because I'm, you know, I'm not a
social person. I have very few friends and I'm
really only close with you and my family by choice, not for any
reason, anything like that. But no, I think that was a big
(21:46):
thing. Like, you know, we've gone to
concerts with my dad and I thinkthere is something innately
human about sharing things with your children in a way that
they're going to like, remember,you know what I mean?
Because obviously we all make childhood memories and we have,
you know, things that we go backto when we were kids.
(22:06):
But I think you really appreciate that a lot more as an
adult. And so I think that's really
what I, what I would miss would be later in life.
I think it's, you know, until they can walk and talk on their
own, like it's a lot of just care and exhaustion and like
it's work. I mean, I'm not I'm not trying
to take that away from it all. Like it's it's work having kids.
(22:29):
And I think that's you want to you want to see the output is
worth, you know, the juice is worth the squeeze if you will.
Like you want to make sure that all the effort you're putting
into this kid is going to end upwell.
And again, you see situations where there's people that are
great parents and raise shitty kids and then there's people
that are shitty parents and their kids do great to spite
(22:50):
them. And so I think that's a a big
thing is just not having that later in life.
Like I said, I don't know that like I, you know, kudos to my
dad and my mom for like when I played sports and everything you
figured for 10 years at least, probably closer to 12 or 13.
That was, you know, their whole free time was geared around
(23:14):
getting me to practice and doingtheir own things.
And so I think there's a a tremendous amount of sacrifice
that parents make for their kids.
And I just for me personally, I that I would have grown to
resent that at some point. Like I said, I'm very much a
creature of comfort and I'm like, I like my time, I like my
(23:34):
space. Like you don't get that when you
have a kid. It's just, I mean, without, you
know, leaving your partner in the lurch, if you will.
And so I just, and I think that's why I softened on the
ideas that the older I got that,you know, the more we got into
our late 20s and early 30s and Iwas like, I want to be like an
independent person, an independent adult.
(23:57):
And like just the, you don't getas many, if any opportunities to
do that. Like when you're a parent,
that's your job. Like that's your, that's your
job. That's your number one title.
That is like the most important thing.
It should. Yeah, of.
Course, if I was going to pursuesomething like that, that would
be my like, that's the way I would look at it.
(24:20):
Is it like that's the first mostimportant thing is take care of
the kid. Everything else falls in after
that, which I think is why a lotof a lot of people have kids to
try and save relationships is because there's a, you know,
there's a, a unifying factor there when your parents like
it's, I mean, I don't want to say US versus them, but like
(24:40):
it's you're a, you're a team that's working together towards
a, a, a joint shared goal. And so I think I think that's
why a lot of people do that. And there are people that are
successful. There are people that who have,
you know, probably wouldn't havestayed in a relationship, but
they had kids, they raised theirkids grade.
They're, you know, they turned out just fine.
Yeah. And I think, you know, we've
(25:02):
talked a lot about how challenging that is.
I just want to take a second to say like it's a very challenging
endeavor when you have any child, but especially it's
compounded if you've got a childwho has any kind of health
issues, mental health issues, kids who were born with or
developed disabilities. I mean, all of those factors
(25:22):
just kind of multiply whatever stress and care that you're
providing. So just wanted to point that out
too. Yeah, which I that wasn't even
something that factored in if wehad, you know, a kid that had,
you know, needs that were above and beyond.
That was something that I thought about a lot.
Which I honestly think probably would have motivated me more if
(25:44):
that makes sense. Like I would have had, you know,
much a much larger sense of, I'mnot going to put it like a, a
larger sense of just them needing me, like a a greater
sense of urgency or something like that.
That would have like would have made me more attuned to being a
parent. Whereas if it was like a, you
(26:05):
know, a smart kid that could function by themselves, just
kind of like, oh, you're, you'llfigure it out.
Like you're, you'll be good. You know what I mean?
Whereas there's a lot more involved with kids that have
other, other issues which you know, ranging from ADHD to, you
know, the, you know, there's a whole other.
Stuff that can be involved therefor sure.
(26:26):
I think the thing that I think I'll I would miss out.
I don't know if I even still feel this way, but when we were
trying to get pregnant and I couldn't like, I very much took
like seeing other pregnant womenor you know, seeing women with
babies. Like it was just something that
I really noticed during that time of my life.
(26:47):
The guy was just hyper aware or like even walking through
Walmart, like seeing little cutebaby clothes like that was
something that I don't want to say like really bothered me.
It was just something that definitely like caught my
attention in a way. But isn't that isn't part of
that like a physiological or hormonal, you know, they always
say like baby fever? Yeah.
And I don't, I don't really knowthe science to back up baby
(27:09):
fever. So I don't know how much of it
is like actual hormonal or how much of it's just like a
societal pressure that women of a certain age have the
expectation. And then when like all your
friends are having kids or your family members are having kids,
then. And I think there's something
like, you know, I've talked for about like, there's something in
our society, even though we do ahorrible job of, you know,
(27:30):
maternal health and keeping pregnant women happy, healthy
and alive, there is a pedestal that pregnant women on our side
are kind of placed on. Like they're very special.
And I think part of me thought because we didn't get married
where we had like a big wedding,that like, if I got pregnant,
this is not a motivator for me to get pregnant.
But I was thinking like, if we, you know, were successful and we
got pregnant, like, I would kindof get a chance to be the
(27:52):
special one for a little bit. And that sounds kind of sad now,
but it's just how I felt. No, I think that's a common
thread for a lot of people is that you, you get that like you
said, you get, you get a a very positive attention from pretty
much everybody. Yeah, everybody loves a I think
that's. Because from a societal
standpoint, like you're, you're fulfilling like the most
(28:13):
important job that you can fill.From a societal standpoint,
you're fulfilling by becoming a mother.
Yeah. And which, like I said, that's
again, their, you know, their gender expectations for men and
women are obviously drastically different, but there's a lot
more weight that gets put on, you know, a woman being a mother
versus a man being a father. And, and so I, I think that like
(28:35):
you said, I think there's a big societal encouragement for
people that can get pregnant to get pregnant.
Yeah, I think so too. So I think that was more
difficult for me. And I like babies where you
could go with that, like I thinkthe moment where birth.
To a four year old, like sold? Absolutely.
(28:55):
Way easier. No, I love a little baby.
A little newborn. They smell like fresh buttered
baby. Oh my gosh, they're so tiny and
perfect and precious. I love babies.
It's when they start talking that I'm like, OK, I'm good.
It's being a little mean. I don't like to get bullied by 4
(29:17):
year olds. And then my next question for
you would be, what aspects of our life do you think are better
because we could not and chose not?
I feel like it's kind of like a slash, like we couldn't slash
chose not because we don't know for sure if IVF would have
worked, but we didn't pursue that route.
(29:37):
So I think. No, but I mean, we've, we're to
point out we're like we're, we've made an active choice that
we're not, it's not something we're going to do.
Right. But it's not like we never
tried, is my thing. Like we tried for two years,
which is what insurance companies require before you can
pursue fertility treatment anyway.
So. So what aspects of our lives do
you think are better because. We didn't, I mean, that's a
(30:00):
loaded question because you never, you know, the grass is
always greener and you never, you never know for sure.
But I know I've like, it's the big reason I like, it's just the
freedom that we have to do stuff.
I mean, I look at, you know, ourfriends that are, that have kids
and they're always running around.
Like I said that, you know, the kids stuff is the most important
stuff. And it's, I mean, I'm, I'm
(30:21):
selfish when it comes to my time.
Like it's even if I'm, you know,objectively wasting it, it's my
time to waste. And so it would be, like I said,
just having the freedom to do that or to be, if we which not
that we're overly spontaneous people to begin with, but if we
wanted to just up and go do something on a whim like that
(30:43):
ain't happening with kids. That's like, we got to get the
baby seat in the car and get a bag packed and figure out what
the hell we're doing. Let's get loaded up and make
sure we have food and make sure we can get them to the bathroom.
And when are they going to nap? And are they?
And they're just an endless listof things that have to be, which
there's people out there that can do it.
Absolutely. Lots of people are doing it.
(31:03):
Beyond my abilities. Yeah, and I think and this isn't
a slight towards you in any way.So please tell me if I offend
you, but I think a lot of the mental load around, especially
before, like a kid could tell you what they need would
definitely have been on me, which like I said, I I like
babies, but I just think a lot of the do we pack this?
(31:27):
Do we pack that? Where's this keeping track of
things, keeping track of the schedule, all of that piece of
it would have been on me. And not because you're not, you
know, a partner in this, but just naturally, like my brain
attunes to that kind of stuff even.
We do that anyway. Yeah, even with the dogs.
(31:48):
And stuff, you know, you plan everything out.
I'm much more kind of go with the flow and not that I like you
said, not that I don't want to plan things.
Or not that you couldn't. I don't want to say you enjoy
planning things, but it's definitely you you get something
from. I think there's a catharsis for
you in being able to plan thingsout.
And so it works out better for both of us that I don't have to
(32:10):
worry about stuff and you can plan things the way that you
want to plan them. And I think that works out just
fine. And so, yeah, I don't think with
a child that would have changed.No, but that's what I'm saying.
Is that in addition to the management I do of like the pets
and everything like I would havebeen the main manager?
No, that's. What I'm saying, yes, it would
have been. I'm saying that's already the
(32:31):
dynamic And so I don't I don't see why that would have changed.
No, but that's what I'm saying is that that would have been
extra work for me where you would have had obviously your
own set of stressors and things about the scenario of having a
child that would have been difficult for you.
But I think in the big picture, like the mental load of it would
(32:52):
have definitely landed on me. Which I do want to backtrack a
little bit just to that was a part of the reason we moved to
where we moved to was we were. Looking to be.
When we were looking to move outof Mason Town and buy a new
house, we were trying to find somewhere that was either close
to your parents or close to where because at the time my
parents hadn't moved up, but that was, that was the plan.
(33:13):
We knew that essentially by the time the child would need a
babysitter, my parents would likely be in the area that we
ended up moving to, which like Isaid, they're, you know, 7
minutes down the road from us now.
And so that was a built in is childcare.
And the cost of childcare was a huge thing I think we didn't
touch on. So I wanted to speak onto it
(33:35):
right now because I remember, you know, when I was still
living up here by myself, you know, our manager there, his
wife, you know, was contemplating going back to
work, but it like she wouldn't have made enough money to.
Cover. To cover because it was
basically like $10,000 a child and so like, yeah, she could
have gone back to work and wouldn't have made more than 20
(33:57):
grand. And so at that point why she's
going to go work to make less money essentially.
Like that way she can stay home,you know, who's raising the
kids? Because that would be a thing
that would get me was like trusting other people.
Like, you know, our parents and stuff are different, but like
essentially strangers with our kids would be difficult for me.
Yeah, And just to note, if you're a mom and you choose to
(34:21):
go back to work and your paycheck is solely to that
daycare, but that works for yourfamily and it works for you and
it gives you a break and a chance to kind of have that
space for yourself, that's also a very valid option.
But for that family that you're talking about, they didn't
ultimately choose that like they.
(34:43):
Children are not one-size-fits-all.
It's going to be different for everybody.
But in that case, they, like I said, it didn't make sense in
their minds to do that. And so they didn't end up doing
it. But that was, like I said, that
was a I think neither of us was really super committed to the
idea of having a kid unless we could have essentially free
(35:03):
child care. Yeah, with people that we trust.
Yeah, yeah, that's funny. Obviously it wasn't just like
Opie. I mean.
Free health care other than withmy grandparents.
It's a stranger that I'm giving my baby to.
That wouldn't be the case. But I think that was a big
driver for us because again, we had a, you know, I had friends
that I'd work with where they weren't, they weren't actively
(35:24):
trying to prevent it. And they had their first child
and luckily both sets of their parents live there.
And so they always had, you know, built in family childcare,
which I think is huge, is a massive, a massive help.
Makes a huge difference. Yeah, for sure.
Which that's again, you know, our other friends, it's kind of
the same way. Both of their parents are, are
here essentially full time. And so they really don't have to
(35:48):
worry that much if they do need to go do something.
If they can't take one or all ofthe kids to like I can, you
know, I don't worry about finding a random babysitter.
I can just like take them over to the grandparents house.
Yeah. So, yeah, that was a factor in
US choosing to move here with the vision of having kids or at
least one while once we were here.
(36:08):
Thank you for bringing that up because I totally.
No, yeah, I said. We were talking about stuff
earlier and I wanted to make it a point because I'm sure a lot
of people feel same way. Yeah, it's super expensive.
It's like a mortgage payment. And then, yeah, you talked a
little bit about our spontaneity, which like you
said, we're not super spontaneous people.
We do have pets that require sitting if we're going somewhere
(36:31):
overnight, but. Yeah.
No, but that's something like the big trip that we're planning
here at the end of the summer. I mean, the logistics of that
are already difficult for two ofus and we're like roughing it in
a manner of speaking, like adding a kid to that.
They're like, we'd have to have a camp.
Like there's no way we'd be ableto do this without like a, you
know what I mean? An RV or something like that to
be able to get them strapped in and get them around in and, and
(36:53):
everything else. And so that, like, I mean, that
wouldn't have been impossible, but yeah.
It would have been an extra factor.
For, you know, 10 years. And I think too for me, like
just in the day-to-day, if I've had a rough day at work or am I
not having a good mental health day, like not having to fake my
way through the evening with a kid, no.
(37:16):
I think, 'cause we had talked about it where I think if one of
us had a bad day and the other one was OK, we would have been
great at like tag teaming as faras like, oh, like you just don't
have the bandwidth today. Like, I'll take care of it.
It would have been if we had both had bad days.
Like I think that would have been a grind.
And I think I would have been the default person to have to
(37:38):
like put that aside in parent. Yeah, most likely.
Yeah, there's nothing against you.
I just. No, I was just.
Saying, I think that's again, just a societal thing, like it's
you're more equipped with the tools.
I don't know that I'm more equipped with the tools, I just
think that I am much more used to having to fake my way through
(38:02):
whatever I'm going through, if that makes sense.
Like no. But that's, I mean, that's why I
said that is because I think there's women have, I don't want
to say an expectation, but your,your, your life from a societal
standpoint kind of hardens your skin for that purpose.
Does that make any sense? Like it's like we put more
pressure on you and we expect a lot more of you and all this
(38:24):
other stuff. I think the expectation is
because that will make you a stronger mother.
And I'm not saying I agree with it at all.
I'm just saying. In general.
I think that there's, like I said, there's just a a lot more,
I don't know how to put it. I mean, I think you're just
better. I mean, I think better equipped
is. I would say better trained.
(38:45):
No, that's, I mean, that's fair.Yeah, that's fair.
You're better trained. Yeah, equipped makes it sound
like it's something you're born with, and I don't think that's
necessarily true, I think. No, but I mean, I just had
equipped as far as, like I said,society has essentially worked
these tools into you and that was just why I chose equipped is
just because it's your, it is something external.
(39:07):
Like when you equip something, you're taking something external
and putting it on. And I think that is what you,
you know, that's like why we give, you know, girls dollies
when they're three years old. It's all like it's all a
training exercise. And so I think that's just the
default expectation is that thatwould happen to people.
(39:27):
I think I just also, I would just, I would get so frustrated
that it would probably become mycounterproductive exercise.
Yes, we've met your father. Uh huh.
Speaking of your father, did youever feel any like, pressure
from your side of the family to have kids or anybody like making
you feel bad when she said we couldn't?
No, I mean, I think they always expected.
(39:49):
I think they very much wanted tobe grandparents just because
that's a special relationship that you have with people.
And you were always super close with your grandparents.
Me as well that we're. Talking about, I mean, the
grandparents that I knew, yeah, we were always which that's
again, I mean that was, you know, when we moved back to
Baltimore from where we're at now, that I mean, that was the
(40:11):
only reason we were able to was because my grandparents were
there to. Which, like I said, goes back to
what we were talking about earlier.
You know, if my, if my grandparents hadn't been there
to essentially, you know, take care of me and my brother when
my mom was working like that, never would have worked.
Yeah. But you don't feel like nobody's
like said anything, Yeah. I mean, I think there was AI
(40:35):
mean they were a little bummed. I think what we told them, but I
don't I've never felt like maligned for for not having
kids. It's never been like a, you
know, I've never heard any, you know, backhanded comments or
anything like that. It was very much a respect of
like, oh, you know, kind of like, oh, we were hoping to be
(40:55):
grandparents, but like, we get it, you know what I mean?
I've never, I've never seen that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I never have either with
your family or my family for that matter.
But yeah, I mean, I think the only piece that I feel guilty
about is like feeling like we'vedeprived our parents on that
experience. Like I feel more, I feel worse
(41:17):
about that than I do than I everwill about my experience of not
having a kid. Does that make sense?
Yeah, which, I mean, at least your parents have a grandchild.
I'm doubting that my parents aregonna have biological
grandchildren. Yeah, which I mean, I said I
feel bad for them, but it's at the end of the day like they're
(41:38):
still not your kids that like it's not, I'm not going to do
something that's going to be detrimental to me.
No for sure, and they would never expect you to.
No, no, no. That's what I'm saying, but I
just don't. But they would just be like
great grandparents, you know what I mean?
Like that, that piece of. It and I think like goes back to
like what you'll miss out on having is that, you know, the
(41:59):
idea of, you know, there's been a couple things I can remember
from being a kid where you have like these generational moments
where you have you know, well, Imean, for me, it never could
have been more than three generations.
But I know you know, I know people that I work with that
are, you know, they'll have fouror five generations all alive at
the same time. And that's kind of wild when you
think about it, is having that many like different sets of the
(42:22):
same DNA all hanging out together.
That's pretty wild. And so, yeah, I mean, that's a
little bum that that won't be the case.
But like I said, I also don't it's also the world that we live
in is very much different too. Yeah, absolutely.
Said. I think if it had been 20 years
earlier, it had been a differentconversation.
(42:45):
That's fair. I also like never really was
very fortunate to not. I feel pressured from my family
about it. And after we, you know, found
out we'd have to do IVF, we decided not to do that.
And I had told like specificallyhad told my mom and my Nana that
we weren't able to have kids. No family member ever asked me
(43:09):
again. So I feel like on the background
they must have done some like Recon of like, hey, they can't
like don't bring it up, which I appreciate because this is an
awkward. I think your nanny, I probably
asked a couple times. She probably did, but I never
like heard it from anybody else on that side of the family.
So I think once we said we can't, that there must have
(43:29):
been, you know, backdoor conversations that were
happening, which I am very grateful for because the least
amount of people that I have to have that conversation with is
very, very much helpful to me. It's, I don't know, I think it
definitely feels different for me than it does for you.
Like to be asked like, oh, do you have any kids?
No, but that's, I mean, like I said, that goes back to just
societal expectations, you know,and gender norms and that kind
(43:52):
of thing. I think there's just an
expectation, like I said, that is from a societal standpoint,
that is the most important job any human has is to be a mother.
Like I'm just simply not equipped.
Like I said, I'm a guy. I can't be a mother.
That's physically impossible. And so I think there's so much
(44:14):
there's a a reverence for women in that very like abstract way
of looking at like we don't wantto treat women like human
beings, right, Unless they're going to be a mother.
And then somehow like I have this, I don't want to say
respect, but it's. Not respect for sure.
It's like I said, it's like thispedestal thing, but it is all
(44:39):
like the facade. Does that make sense?
Like we're not going to do research, we're not going to
fund things, we're not going to provide you with the resources
that you need, but on like a very skin deep face value level,
like pregnant women are beautiful.
Like it's very. But I think, I think so much of
(45:01):
that is because men can't. And so in a society where men
control pretty much everything that's you can't, you have no
way of controlling. Like I can try and put laws in
place and discourage you from having kids or I can outlaw
abortion or I can do whatever I want, but I can't, I mean me
saying I just like men can't change the machinations that
(45:23):
women have in place to have kids.
Like so it's not at the end of the day, like you're the only
person that can choose whether or not you actually have kids.
I can, I can put Rd. box in the place.
But if that's something that youwant to do, I can't stop you.
And I so I think it's, it's not a reverence, but it's like I
said, there's a almost a fear init that is just like I said,
(45:46):
that's something I can't control.
I just want, I want women to have all the kids, but I can't
make them do that. I mean, they're doing a great
job of making. No, like I said, you can put,
you can put a ton of roadblocks and stepping stones and red tape
and whatever you want to do that.
But at the end of the day, that's that's just not something
(46:07):
that you have control over. I understand the point you're
trying to make. I think they have the ultimate
control over it, no? But I'm saying they can't
though. They can't.
They can't walk down the street,look at a woman and say you're
going to get pregnant like that.I can't do that.
OK. I mean, I get where you're
coming from that somebody could attempt to make that happen for
(46:29):
sure, but that at the end of theday, that's not like they can't
just wave a magic wand and just you're having a baby right now.
That's fair. I'm with you in the magic wand
analogy. I just think some of the other
language, not in the way you intended is like, you know,
(46:50):
they're doing, they're doing a pretty bang up job of deciding
when and how and where women aregetting pregnant and giving
birth. So I think they're they're
taking a really good swing on trying to work.
Out. But that's what I mean, though,
that's all. All that stuff is a projection
because they know that they theycan't like, so they're going to
take every step they can to try and do that, but they can't.
(47:11):
Like, they can't make that just happen like it's not.
By their sheer will. Yes.
That's fair. All right.
Anything else you want to lay down on this topic?
All. Right.
It's kind of a heavy 1. I feel like we're far enough
removed from it now that I don'tget like emotional about it like
(47:32):
I used to. I think the only thing that
bothers me, like we said, was like our grandparents or our
parents aren't going to be grandparents for us.
So I think that's the only thingthat still bothers me, which
like I said, is never anything any of them have ever mentioned
and or said. This is just coming from me
personally. We've been very fortunate to
(47:54):
have very understanding familieswho don't, you know, pressure us
or give us a hard time about it.All right, anything else, my
dear? All right, you want to take us
all out? Thanks for listening this week
to Meandered millennials. Hope you like, comment, share,
(48:15):
subscribe. All the things on all the
socials, go ahead and do them. Lets us know you appreciate what
we're doing. Yeah, and if you hung out this
long, you can hear Raleigh and Ichew on two additional little
digits of information. One is usually easier to answer
than the other. So what?
What media or experience? I think I'm going to open it up
(48:35):
so it's not just media. What experience did you have
this week that you would like toshare with the class?
I'm going with media anyway because the.
New Oh OK then I was giving. You an episode came out.
Yeah, the fish Fishhoder opus. Yes, it's a Fishhoder episode.
It's always fun. Always Kevin Klein.
Hilarious, hilarious. It's Calvin Fishhoder.
(48:58):
Felix Wild, as usual. But yeah, it was a very Felix or
I'm sorry, very Fishhoder heavy episode.
But again, I it's the themes. There's just such a great
underlying theme about, you know, being yourself and being
true to yourself. And like I said, they always,
they always tie that stuff in and give you like a real, a real
(49:19):
life lesson to walk away with. And so I appreciate that.
It was a very good episode. I'm just glad Bob's is back on.
Absolutely. About to say.
And now that Bob's is back on folks, that will probably be at
least one of our medias of the week every week while there's no
upsets coming out. Yeah, which?
One is this week. I'm not sure when they're
supposed to. Maybe because it's a holiday
they didn't drop 1? I'm trying to think, I think
(49:39):
last year they did that. They didn't drop it holiday on
Hulu. They would do 2.
Like there would be like a two week lag and then you would get
one episode or two episodes. I don't remember exactly how it
worked, but I remember I vaguelyremember there being a lag from
when it's live because we obviously don't have live
television. We do not.
So there's a bit of Hulu. What about you?
(50:03):
I'm going to take my own out andnot do media.
On Saturday I hung out with two of my very best friends at
Sangarun Park and they had like a Wellness day.
And for only 25 doll hairs. We got to do yoga.
Learn about making your own herbal teas and foraging like
local native plants. Where we live there was a forest
(50:26):
bathing class, a nature journaling class, and a
watercolor class for 25 bucks. We were there for the whole day.
It was like adult day camp. It was a true delight, just a
bunch of ladies hanging out. Yeah.
What a treat. What a dream.
Yeah. No, that was, I know for sure
that one of your friends was doing that specifically to
escape her kids. So not specifically, but that
(50:51):
was definitely a. Bonus a bonus, yeah.
To hang out with adults all day?Yes, yes, I agree.
And what was the best thing you ate this week?
Oh, Mom made homemade banana pudding.
Oh my God, it. Was so good it.
Was so good, like the first bite.
I was like, dear Lord, she made it with gluten free wafer
(51:13):
cookies and Oh my gosh, it was so good.
You're not even a huge banana guy for like.
A See, I love banana flavor. Yeah, I don't like the texture
of a banana. Like you're not going to bite
into a banana. It's fleshy and gummy and.
Delicious. Not for me so good.
Now, like I said, if you cook itand reduce it down like I could
(51:33):
eat it like we have that brulee.I think that was last week's
that I picked. It was the brulee banana which
also did inspire us having banana banana pudding.
And inspired a conversation between you, your mom, and your
brother about how she could MacGyver a banana cream cheese
because. That's what I was going to ask
for for my birthday because my mom always makes for her loved
(51:59):
ones. She will make whatever kind of
cake, dessert you want for your birthday.
She will make that for you. And so I kind of dragged my feet
until the last minute with picking out the menu this year.
And so I just had her make a, a cheesecake.
She's makes a phenomenal cheesecake.
Just a regular, I don't know if you would call it New York style
or not, but she makes like a just a standard cheesecake and
(52:21):
they're delicious. She's got it figured out.
She got that recipe dialed. And so I used to do turtle
cheesecake was one of my go to'sfor her birthday.
No, I was thinking about this, about doing like a banana cream
pie cheesecake, which I think Cheesecake Factory does make
(52:42):
one. I don't know if I've had it
before or not, but I'm pretty sure they do.
But having that in a cheesecake,but I didn't want to have her on
short notice try and figure out,you know, how to do that.
And so, yeah, she made the banana pudding and it was super
good. And so I was like, hey, do you
think maybe we could figure out how to put this in a cheesecake?
(53:03):
And she was like, yeah, for sure, yeah, that's a good deal.
So we got a, we got a game plan figured out now.
So we'll just need a another event, another reasoned excuse
to make a banana cream pie cheesecake.
Yeah, absolutely. What about you?
Trying to see the menu what we ate list.
(53:24):
Which I mean everything we ate. Gosh, we eat so many burgers.
We had burgers Thursday, Friday,and then we had burgers at your
mom's house yesterday. So many burgers.
It's. Memorial Day and that's burgers.
Burgers. The whole burgers you cook out.
Burgers I think I will go with the jalapeno popper potato salad
(53:45):
I made. Just got 2 little containers
like little potato company potatoes that are microwavable
because I'm lazy and microwave those.
Wait for them to cool down, cut them in half block.
Cream cheese, some shredded cheese of unknown origin.
I don't know what kind of put inthere.
It's either cheddar or Colby Jack bacon.
(54:05):
Like real bacon bit things and Icut up two like raw jalapenos
and diced them up, put them in there and they were not that
spicy. I don't know why.
I know you didn't try it becauseyou don't love a cold potato,
but they really weren't spicy. I thought I could have added, I
could have had another one in there maybe, I don't know.
(54:25):
But had that yesterday. Took it to the cookout, brought
my leftovers home, heated it up so it was like a warm potato
casserole. I made that shit for breakfast.
I love breakfast. Best meal of the day?
I never eat. Breakfast I know you don't it's
rules are to me I. Just not a big eating a whole
(54:47):
bunch of stuff in the morning. I mean, sometimes over the
weekend like I'll have. Oatmeal or something?
Yeah, yeah. A little protein shake.
I'm not a big large breakfast eater typically.
I am dude. All the potatoes, all the eggs.
I'm also not a morning person, so that's a lot of work.
Yeah. To eat.
Yeah, on the weekends I'm generally up like 2 to 3 hours
before you are doing animal tours.
(55:11):
Which Speaking of the animals, we took Nixie and Duncan on a
WALK today and they have been pooped all afternoons.
They like slept through this whole recording, which never
happens. There's usually some level of
shenanigans and interruptions and they are out, which I am
appreciative. Of she was tired, I think just
because we were in that. Just a metal, yeah.
(55:33):
I think yeah, she. Was she's an all black dog if
you've seen the pictures on Instagram and she gets warm.
Quick. Yeah, she was panting pretty
quickly so. All right, well that kind of
wraps us up. Next week, episode 12, we'll be
talking about our first car camping experience, an episode
I've titled Car Camping or Car Glamping.
(55:53):
Question mark Did you feel glamorous car camping?
I don't know that glamorous is the word that I would use all.
Right, we got to step up our game.
So yeah, that'll be the next episode.
This episode airs on June 26th, and the following episode will
be airing on July 3rd. Wow, I guess July 4th is a
(56:14):
Friday this year. Yeah, it is, which is nice
because that way I don't have totake an extra day.
I get a free three day weekend. Three day weekend much?
Like this weekend. Yeah, which it sucks.
Now it's Monday. It is Monday.
Sounds like Sunday. I know only four days to work
next week, so that's a benefit. That is a benefit.
That is a plus. All right, dude, you want to
take us out? Bye.
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