Episode 7 - May is Mental Health Awareness Month

May is Mental Health Awareness Month and Rawleigh and Rae get real about their mental health challenges. Buckle up for a vulnerable episode where we talk about our own experiences, diagnoses, treatments, and a reoccurring train analogy.

Trigger warning - discussions of mental health issues and suicide.

Episode Transcript

(00:17):
It is 729 on April 28th, 2025 here in central Appalachia.
I am Raleigh. And I'm Ray.
And we are the meandering millennials.
We are two mid 30s millennials here to talk about our lives,
travelling, homesteading skills,dogs, cats, chickens, cooking,
creating and any other topics might expect our interest.

(00:39):
Today. You are tuning in to Episode 7
and it is dedicated to Maya's Mental Health Awareness Month.
Yes, mental health very important.
Yeah. So today we're going to talk a
little bit about our personal journeys with mental health.
As you know, we're both millennials.
So I think we kind of amongst bridging other gaps like

(01:00):
technology, kind of bridge this gap where growing up it really
wasn't something that was talkedabout or discussed, at least not
where I grew up. And then turning into an adult,
it seemed to be like more spokenabout and educated about.
People talked about it more freely.
Yeah. I think a lot of that was just
we didn't have like the words for what we were describing.

(01:22):
I think that's why you see a lotof like a lot more cases now,
just because it's like it's reported more.
I mean, I think that's like, youknow, we didn't know what cancer
was. We just thought people died of
natural 'cause, you know what I mean?
So you didn't have like a term for it.
And so I think people are now like having the words to
describe how they're feeling mentally.

(01:44):
And so now we're like being ableto better define and help kind
of group people together that have similar symptoms to get a
similar diagnosis and proper treatment.
Yeah, absolutely. I agree with all of that.
But before we dig too much deeper into this topic, what are
you drinking tonight, Raleigh? I'm drinking in Austin E Ciders

(02:07):
Texas honey hard cider. That is what I'm also drinking.
We bought them for our camping trip last weekend and had some
leftovers so even though it is aMonday night we are diving in.
It says it's a limited edition, limited release flavor, but it's
pretty good. Yeah, I've seen their stuff at
the liquor store before and it'spretty good.
I'm pretty sure they have a pineapple that's really good too

(02:27):
that. Would be fresh in the
summertime. Yes, very summary, Yes.
All right, so as we discussed, you know, we're going to dive
into some sensitive topics today, talk about mental health,
talk about each of our experiences.
So it could be kind of a heavy episode.
If that's something that you don't have the capacity for or

(02:50):
something you're just simply notinterested in, you can
absolutely skip this one. Next week we'll be talking about
our trip to Shenandoah National Park, and that might be a little
bit more user friendly, family friendly topic.
But for today, yeah, we're goingto talk about some kind of
deeper, heavier stuff. One thing we will mention is
mentions of suicide. So again, if that's something
that's you're not having the capacity for to handle, just

(03:12):
skip it, save it for later or TuneIn next week.
All right, So I think the way we're going to play this out is
I'm just going to kind of dive into my personal experience
around mental health issues and then I'll hand off to Raleigh
and he can kind of share his. I think in general, just to
generalize, you and I have very different experiences, very

(03:35):
different symptoms, just in general, we struggle with very
different aspects of mental health.
So it'll be interesting to kind of see both sides of that coin
and how two people can have totally different experiences.
Yeah, I also think I was always ignorant to like mental health

(03:55):
as far as like with my family, it was always mental health was
like people in an institution that have like developmental
needs and not so much like depression was never really a
bit yes. And so it was never, it was
never just talked about, not in a like a negative way, like we
weren't not talking about it because it was taboo.

(04:15):
It just wasn't something that ever really came up.
And so I never really paid attention to, like, what mental
health was or looked like until I started to see how you dealt
with your issues. And then it kind of opened my
eyes to, oh, OK, this is, like, just good information to have
because, like I said, it helps you understand how you're
feeling and how to process, like, some of your behaviors or

(04:38):
habits, bad or good, for better or for worse.
So yeah. Yep.
So like I said, May is mental health awareness month.
This episode will publish at theend of May to kind of close out
the month. And I look this up in
preparation for the episode. And I'm going to ask you to
guess which I know you hate to do, but humor me this one time.
When do you think that May as kind of a mental health

(05:01):
awareness? It's been called a couple
different things, but mental health awareness month was
established because I was shooketh when I saw this. 2021.
20/21 is your guess. Yes, 1949.
What? Yeah, I was shocked too.
Obviously, what that looked likeback then was a lot different it
looks like now. But I think that was the first

(05:23):
time that on like a public stagethat clinicians and
practitioners were like, hey, this is a thing that we need to
be providing education and resources about.
So I thought that was pretty cool in 1949.
Yeah, I blown away that it was, like I said, because that's
literally like the connotation that I was talking about
earlier. It was the same thing, Like you
think of like, you know, American Horror Story asylum

(05:44):
type stuff. And that is, I think for a large
portion of people, like the image that they get when you say
mental health and not so much the fact that everybody deals
with it in some capacity just about every day.
Absolutely. I just thought that little
tidbit was interesting and then like I said, I'll dig into kind
of my background with it and what I've done and then we'll

(06:08):
kick it over to you to kind of share yours and we'll come
together at the end. Sound like a plan?
Let's do it all right? So I think that I was probably,
you know, we talked like nature versus nurture.
And I'm not really sure how thatall plays out.
But when I look back at my childhood, like I don't remember
a time when I wasn't anxious andnot even necessarily like

(06:31):
anything crazy going on, but I just remember always having
anxiety. I didn't know what that was at
the time. I just thought that's everybody
kind of had that inner feeling and monologue around it.
But some of the telltale signs that my mom kind of picked up on
pretty early was I, I didn't know what it was at the time,
but now I understand that it's body focused repetitive

(06:52):
behaviors. So even as young as like 6 years
old, I was pulling out my eyelashes, my eyebrow hairs,
sucking my thumb, biting my nails, just a lot of like self
soothing behaviors to deal with the anxiety that I didn't have
words for to kind of talk about.I remember an elementary school,

(07:14):
I get so anxious about gym class.
I don't know why I didn't find it fun.
And I would just get myself worked up.
So like every Tuesday and Thursday when I had gym class,
my mom would get a call. You need to come pick up Ray
from school. She's in like the nurse's
office. She's got an upset stomach.
And my mom would say she would show up and I would look like a

(07:35):
ghost, pale, just looked like I wasn't well.
And it took her a couple weeks to kind of put two and two
together and finally inquire like, what classes does she have
on those two days? Realized it was gym class.
She was like, hey, we can't keepdoing this.
Like you, you have to take the class.
Like, you have to participate. So yeah.

(07:58):
So at that time, like I, like I said, didn't have words to kind
of put through that. My mom did have me talk to the
guidance counselor elementary school when she kind of realized
what was going on. I don't remember that being like
a super helpful task, but you know, it was the 90s and she was

(08:18):
a guidance counselor. No offense to her.
I don't think she had anything wrong.
I just don't think she was really well equipped to kind of
handle. I don't think a high school
guidance counselor is well equipped for, like, full mental
health. Yeah, you know, support.
And so I don't think especially one that's in an elementary
school, like, yeah, definitely not thinking that's on her
resume. Yeah, just not quite sure what

(08:38):
to do with me, which will be a theme with a therapist in the
future. So just kind of went about my
life, stop pulling out my hair, stop sucking my thumb about in
the third grade. Still was a nail biter until I
got braces in middle school. And then that kind of broke that
habit. But the first time that I kind

(08:59):
of had the realization of like Ineed help from an outside source
when I was 23. And I have broken up with an
ex-boyfriend. We've been together for a couple
years and a few months later he unfortunately took his life.
And that obviously had a huge impact on me.
And I found myself like beyond able to cope, just could not

(09:23):
handle it on my own. So I went to see my General
practitioner and just like my anxiety's out of control.
Like on a scale of one to 10, I'm like A7, I'd like to be at
A2. And no offense to her, but she
was like, of course we'd all like that.
I was like not super helpful response, but she did prescribe
me an SSRI and I took that for about a year.

(09:45):
And then I myself started developing like some suicidal
ideation, like really passive ideation.
So never any time where I like had a plan or I'm going to do
XYZ, but it was just like, oh, Icouldn't get into a car accident
on the way home. Oh, you know, just these
thoughts of like getting hurt orpassing away as an escape from

(10:10):
the feeling. But again, never.
I didn't ever had a plan around that.
Now I, I do just want to ask just to clarify, because even
for me, there's a lot of confusion on that.
Now, you're not saying like car accident that you wanted to
cause a car. You were just thinking that you
could be a part of a car accident.
I think there's a very importantdistinction between like you

(10:32):
actively deciding to do that or just you thinking like, oh, this
could happen. And that's why a lot of people
now use the term like passive. So you might be having thoughts
of like, oh, everyone would be better off without me, or I wish
I could just sleep all day. Like you're looking almost for

(10:53):
an opportunity for an out, but you're not making a plan.
You don't have like an action that you're going to follow
through with. It's just very passive.
Like if that happened, then thathappened, if that makes sense.
We're like an active suicidal plan.
It's like on this day or this week, I'm going to blah, blah,

(11:14):
blah. I don't go into super details
about what some people's plans are, but so that's kind of where
I was at. And I just felt like we've swung
too far the other direction. And I asked to be taken off the
SSRIs. So that was like, like I said,
in my early 20s, you and I were together.

(11:34):
I had undiagnosed celiac diseaseat that time, which we talked
about in episode 6. So if you'd like to know more
about that and kind of how that can affect people's mental
health, absolutely check that episode out.
And so I had kind of decided that I was just going to white
knuckle it and just try to figure out on my own like what I

(11:55):
thought would be helpful. And bootstrap it.
Just going to bootstrap it. So in a not very bootstrappy
fashion, I decided to go throughyoga teacher training.
And throughout that process, I learned a lot about the mind
body connection in the way physical symptoms in your body
can kind of indicate to your brain that you're not safe or
that your nervous system is dysregulated.

(12:15):
And then your brain, at least mybrain, can kind of make up its
own story as to why that is. And it'll kind of tell me this
story even if it has nothing to do with the sensation that my
body's feeling. So I did find that super helpful
and for the next couple years taught a little bit of yoga
before 2020 Covad happened. Still continue to do yoga this

(12:39):
day. Still think it is a powerful
tool for me to have. But it is not the end all be all
for me. Like I can't just do yoga every
day for an hour and then all of my other issues kind of
disappear. But it is a piece of the toolbox
for me. No, I think it's important for
even like even, you know, like physical exercise or walking or

(13:02):
like anything that kind of gets those endorphins going.
Like there are like known benefits that you get from that.
And so that's certainly like yousaid, you can't just, I'm not
going to do it every day for an hour and then do it.
But I think any kind of mindfulness exercise, which yoga
is obviously very much in that vein of is important because it
just kind of forces you to like more naturally like kind of

(13:25):
question your own brain. And so you're kind of doing some
of the hard work of, of working on, you know, issues that you're
being mindful of. Yeah, absolutely.
I agree. And like I said, I could do yoga
for an hour every day. I don't.
But even if I did, the way I think about how I make myself
feel better is there's like a pie.

(13:46):
So yoga or joyful movement is like a piece of that pie.
It's not ever going to be the whole thing.
And then I think the next time Ireally had kind of an issue when
I was 32, so this was probably 2021 ish, I injured my eye
stupidly putting a mask on. I was at work, I was going to

(14:08):
leave my office where my door had been shut and in the common
spaces we were required to wear masks.
And when I went to put it up over my nose, the metal piece
that kind of bent over the bridge of your nose caught my
eyeball because I was not payingattention to what I was doing
and took a chunk out of it with that.
It just truly sent me for a spiral.

(14:30):
It really just regulated my nervous system.
I'm a very claustrophobic person, so not being able to
have my eyes open was really difficult for me.
And that really kicked off kind of like 6 months of debilitating
anxiety even after my eye had healed, because I'd say within a
week or two, like my vision was back to normal, everything was
fine. But that situation had created

(14:53):
such an imbalance within me thatI started to have nocturnal
panic attacks for about 3 months.
Every time I would fall asleep, I would be woken by a jolt in a
full panic attack. And if I'm I'm a person who's
like, if I'm not sleeping well or I'm not sleeping enough, like
the rest of the dominoes are about to come down.

(15:14):
Sleep hygiene is very important to me.
And I know when something beginsto affect my sleep that it's
just a matter of time before it's an all consuming issue.
So had next couple months of that where I'd fall asleep on
our bed and then maybe sleep foran hour and be jolted awake in a
full panic. And then you would go to bed and

(15:34):
I'd come out in the living room and I would like literally walk
in circles in the living room orwalk up and down the hallway
just trying to like calm myself down and tire myself out so that
I could sleep. And I would maybe sleep two or
three hours on the couch with Bob's Burgers playing the whole
time like it was. There was like 4 to 6 months
where you just stayed out here. Like I would just go to bed

(15:55):
myself. And you just stayed out here.
Yeah. I would just.
Sleep and you could and just I would sleep in the.
Bed and then I wasn't bothering you and I could have the lights
on, have the TV on. And we had a little dog at that
time named Leroy and Leroy was like a little ride or die
Maltese. And when I would like get up to
move to the couch, he'd get up and move to the couch.

(16:15):
When I was up pacing around the house, he'd get up and pace
around the hat like he was such a supportive little doggy.
So that that situation really triggered me to be like, OK,
this has been six months, I needto outsource this to some
professionals. So I went and sought out some
professional help, saw a psychiatrist, was diagnosed with

(16:37):
major depressive disorder, panicdisorder, and generalized
anxiety disorder. They referred me over to kind of
like a mental or my regular healthcare provider and we
started Zoloft, which is an SSRIantidepressant and some talk
therapy. So I tried talk therapy with a

(16:59):
person in the office for a couple weeks and then I've also
tried to do it online through Better Help and both times
therapists were great. I just tend to get the same
messaging, which is like you're super self aware all the tools
that we were going to provide toyou, like you're already doing
them in terms of like meditation, yoga, trying to
exercise, trying to, you know, make sure you're eating three

(17:21):
times a day, getting enough sleep.
So a lot of the things that theywere recommending I was already
implementing, but I was still struggling and it felt like like
I was, I don't know, I don't saylike a lost cause, but they did
not have any additional kind of support to throw my directs yet.
No, but I think and I, I'll, I'll get into my experience with

(17:43):
talk therapy, but I think a lot of times it's, you know, all
they can do as a as a therapist,because obviously each
Interperson is individual. Like all they can do is give you
the road map. And I think that's the issue is
for you and I both like I already have the map.
Like I don't, yeah, I don't needthe map.
I need like somebody to like drive the taxi and get me to the

(18:04):
trailhead, you know what I mean?Like I don't, I I have the
tools, I know where I'm going. Like I need, I need the help to
get there. And I think that's, and I'm not,
I'm not bad mouthing mental health professionals or because
for a lot of people that's what it is.
Like they just lack, they just lack the road map.
They just don't know how to get.There, I don't say that they
lack, they've just never been handed one.

(18:27):
No, but that's what I mean, they're, they're not that,
that's the tool that they're missing.
It's not which like I said, I'll, I'll get into my stuff
when I talk about me. But I think it's important to
note that for for both of us, I think for a lot of people out
there, that type of therapy doesn't work just for that, for
that purpose. But it's just not like you need
a little bit more guided, a little bit more precise help

(18:50):
than just like here's the toolkit.
Yeah. Yeah.
So like I said, I went for a couple weeks and it was nice to
have, you know, a person who hasno stake in your life to just be
like a neutral sounding board, but ultimately didn't really
walk away with that walk away from that experience without
anything that I hadn't already been been doing.

(19:12):
So just continued taking sertraline slash the loft same
thing for about two more years. And then after I was diagnosed
with celiac disease, I, me and my doctor weaned me off of it.
As we talked about in episode 6,there's a lot of mental health
struggles that come with undiagnosed and untreated celiac

(19:35):
disease. So the thought was like how much
of what I had been experiencing related to ingesting gluten
unknowingly, well, having celiacso weaned off of it.
And I was pretty good about a year or two, maybe a year and a
half. And then in 2024, I was 3435 ish

(20:00):
and started to get visual disturbances, which we later
found out was related to migraines with aura, but I
wasn't getting migraine headache.
So it wasn't like very clear to me immediately that that's what
was going on. And ended up having to have a
brain MRI. I'm very claustrophobic that
resulted in me. Having to get out of that test

(20:23):
early, I ended up having to be taken to a town about an hour of
way and have it completed under general anesthesia because I
just could not hang an MRI machine.
So if you are someone who is claustrophobic and you do have
to have an MRI or testing like that, make sure you're working
with your doctor to kind of explore your options.
Because I was given something I had, you know, talked to my

(20:44):
doctor like, hey, I'm going to need a medication to kind of
help me get through this and took Valium ahead of time and
still was just unable to complete the test.
So just know that there's options for you and work with
your provider if that's something that you also struggle
with so that you're able to takecare of yourself and have
testing done that you need done in a way that's most comfortable

(21:05):
for you. So yeah, diagnosed with
migraines and either the year before or right around that
time, I was also diagnosed with PMDD and that was from my
gynecologist. I kind of explained to her what
was going on with me. PMDD stands for premenstrual

(21:26):
dysphoric disorder. So it's kind of a more severe
form of PMS and it is cyclical. So it's something that you're
going to notice a change in every month and to the point
where I'm I'm looking up like ifI'm bipolar like what's what's
happening that every month like I'm having just a really hard
time coping when a week beforehand I was fine and for it

(21:48):
to happen monthly I just needed to investigate that a little
deeper. So diagnosed with PMDD, started
a combination birth control pill.
There's not a lot of options fortreatments for PMDD, SSRI's or
birth control really seems to bethe top 2.
And I didn't feel like the previous times that I had been

(22:08):
on an SSRI that it had made thatbig of a difference.
So we decided to try to do the combination birth control pill.
And that kind of brings us up tolast December.
I was trying to go on a Christmas train trip, like a 2
hour train trip for like a SantaChristmas thing for my nephew.

(22:33):
He was four. And I should have known
beforehand that it was not a great idea, but I thought I was
going to be fine. And as soon as I get on the
train. So there have been like
obviously a lot of people in chaos and noise beforehand.
So I was pretty overstimulated before we even got on the train.
And I got on the train and immediately like chest is tight,

(22:54):
there's no air in here and I canfeel a panic attack.
So we get to where there's a staff person and I just, I said
to my mom, I said, I think I'm having a panic attack.
I think I need to get off the train.
And she was like, are you OK? I'm like, no, I think I need to
get off the train. So I see someone who works there
and I said, I'm having a panic attack.
I need to get off the train. Well, it's kind of like a one
way situation. So I had to wait till everybody

(23:16):
else was on the train before I could be escorted back off.
And luckily my family is, you know, super cool and
understanding and was just felt bad for me having to deal with
that. And I was able to drive myself
home and it wasn't a huge deal. But that should have been a sign
to me that, like, my nervous system was just regulated, that

(23:38):
I was struggling. But even after dealing with this
kind of stuff for 30 years, likefor some reason, it's so hard to
recognize that in yourself. And so 30 years of this, and I'm
still not saying you just had a panic attack on a children's
train. You probably need to talk to
your doctor. Like that doesn't even cross my
mind. So since that time, you know, we

(24:00):
had a rough winter where we liveton of snow.
We like to hike in the winter that really wasn't accessible to
us because of how much snow thatwe were getting.
So kind of cooped up all winter weather wasn't great and it just
kind of spiraled out from there.I ultimately ended up seeking

(24:22):
out my provider earlier this month actually was my
appointment, I think, and restarting Zoloft, which has
helped. It absolutely has helped.
It's only been four weeks on it,but I just feel like it creates
space of my brain from myself and like my anxious thoughts,
where beforehand it feels like your anxious thoughts are just

(24:42):
kind of screaming at you and your ear and you can't even
think without that kind of background noise being right
there. And now it seems like it's maybe
like ATV in the background. So it doesn't take it away
entirely, but it just gives you space to be able to manage your
life without that being at the forefront.

(25:02):
And then gives you more bandwidth.
Yes, it gives you more bandwidth.
So like I said, it doesn't take it away necessarily, it just
gives you the capacity to be able to deal with it.
And we did end up changing my birth control from a combination
pill to a progesterone only birth control pill because
sometimes the combination pills can not be great for people have

(25:26):
migraines with auras. And I have noticed that the
auras have gone down. I was having them almost every
day and now maybe once a week. So that has made a huge
difference as well. I'm not sure how that's going to
affect my PMDD. There's reviews online that are
kind of mixed, so we'll wait in a couple months and see how that
plays out. Yeah, like that's always a roll
of the dice, is how all the chemicals are going to interact

(25:49):
with one another, right? Could be great, could be shit,
yeah. Could be a whole lot of stuff in
between. Yep.
And you only time will tell. So yeah, that's kind of where it
started up till now. Like I said, I I get frustrated
with myself that after 30 years,I'm not able to kind of like see
the train coming in the distancein terms of like having another

(26:12):
episode where my mental health'sreally going to tank until the
train is like honking its horn right up against me.
And I wish that I was more keen on recognizing it in the
distance. But I think I think there's also
a paradox there in that like you're obviously hoping that
it's not, you're hoping that you've done the work that you're

(26:33):
going to be able to either go longer in between episodes or
get rid of the episodes all together.
And so like, I think there's an extra weight of that.
Is that like you're expecting todefeat that, if you will?
And so like when it gets out, like, and I think even maybe
subconsciously like you do see it coming and you're like, why

(26:55):
got this? Like I can.
But again, I don't want to say denial.
I think like you're putting up the active fight.
It's just like I said, it's that's an imbalance that I think
a lot of people, I said, I thinka lot of people that are
ignorant to mental health don't understand that it's not like
you're not actively making a choice to feel this way.

(27:15):
I think there's a lot of people that are are lucky enough to not
deal with that or deal with it privately with all kinds of
different things that they may consciously or subconsciously
use to self medicate. But I think a lot of people
don't recognize it as being like, that's like, I know a lot
of people look at depression just like, well, you're just

(27:37):
choosing to be sad. Like you're choosing to lay in
bed all day. Like you're choosing to like,
are you though? Like it's, you're like the
chemicals in your brain are dysregulated to the point where
they're not like telling your systems to work.
Like it's like you don't have tothink about breathing.
That's autopilot. Like your brain just does that
automatically. Like, but you, but you have to

(27:59):
get yourself up to go eat. So your body makes you hungry
when you need to eat. It's like, Hey, we need some
fuel. I need you to do something about
this because I, I'm a brain, I can't move.
So I need you to use all the shit that you have that I gave
you and go get what you need. And I think a lot of people
don't look at that and, and understand the weight of that,

(28:21):
that it's not like it's not likeyou're standing on the tracks
and just watching a train come at you like you're, you're
trying to avoid. I look at it as like you're
driving and you see the train coming in the distance and
you're like, I think I'm going to make it over the tracks this
time. Does that make sense?
Like I'm going to beat the train.
It's not like you're waiting forthe train to come hit you.

(28:43):
And I think that's the loop thata lot of people, especially with
depression get into where it's like it's a defeating, like a
self defeating cycle. See, I, I see it a little bit
differently. We're just going to stick with
the train analogy. I think it is someone who is
tied to the tracks and they see the train coming at them and
they are desperately reaching around with them and trying to

(29:05):
figure out what they have that could possibly get them off the
tracks. And they're trying all these
different tools and different options.
Some things work, some things don't, but I think yeah, like
you. Said no, that's, that's fair.
Now that you said that, because it's like, if you're driving,
like you have a lot more controlthat I think, which is the point

(29:26):
that I was trying to make is that it's not that it's like the
control issue is minimal. It's not like, like I said,
you're not actively making a choice to feel this way.
Like you're not telling your brain to do this right.
Your brains doing this and you're reacting.
Right. And you know, talking more about
which I don't, I don't want to come across as if I'm blaming
myself because I don't want anyone who's listening to feel

(29:49):
that way either. Like I would never want anyone
to think that oh, they should have done this or they should
have known. So I need to stop using that
language from talking about myself.
But I think hindsight's 2020. And I'm like, oh, I stopped
eating breakfast because I wasn't hungry in the mornings
and I wasn't interested in working out at all.
Like had no desire to move my body.
I would sit and doom scroll for hours.

(30:10):
So like looking back, I can see very distinct signs where like
it was creeping back in. But in the moment, like you
said, it just the effort to eat breakfast or the effort like
you're doing the aspects of yourlife that you 100% have to do.

(30:30):
And then everything else that you don't cleaning the house or
evacuate. Like all of those pieces you
just no longer have the energy for because you have dedicated
all your available resources to getting up and going to work so
you don't get fired to taking care of your animals, hopefully
to taking caring, taking care ofyourself in some aspects.

(30:52):
But like in the in those moments, I could, this is not,
it's kind of gross, not super gross, but not great.
Like I could wear the same pair of pants to work every day for a
week and truly not care if anybody noticed because I put on
pants to get to work and that was all that was Max capacity of
what I was capable of in that moment.

(31:15):
So I don't think people who are really struggling get enough
credit for what they're able to accomplish.
No, and that's, that's what I was getting at was that it's,
that's why I say it's self defeating is because like that
in theory, that should give you a boost, you know what I mean?
Like you're, you're doing good. You're, you're in a battle.
Like it's that's that should make you feel good.

(31:36):
That should boost the things in you that are like important, you
know what I mean? And it's and but it it doesn't.
And I think that's where the issue comes in.
And I think that's why people put this negative connotation on
it is because it they, they think you're making a choice to
do it and you're not. That's, and that's what I'm
saying is you're not, you're notactively deciding like you're

(31:57):
deciding to do that fighting like you're deciding not to give
up. And I think a lot of people look
at it more half empty than half full.
That's that makes sense. And I think part of getting away
from that is, you know, having conversations like we're having
where I'm comfortably very open about the things that I've
struggled with. Because my hope is that maybe

(32:17):
somebody else listens to this and it gives them the confidence
to go seek help from someone or to try different things to help
themselves. I don't lose anything by being
upfront and vulnerable about what I've gone through because I
didn't have access to that type of information growing up.

(32:38):
And if I had, then maybe 17 yearold me would have had the
capacity to take steps, you know, five years before 23 year
old me had to have something really awful happened to them to
make them feel justified in reaching out for help.
Yeah, no. And I think that's why it's
important to share because you have to remember that your
hindsight could be someone else's foresight, you know what

(33:01):
I mean? So like the lessons that you
have learned can be, like I said, these are the symptoms
that I was having and other people that are in the middle of
experiencing that can, can feel that.
And I think it's, it's importantthat you need to, you need to
recognize that and you need to give yourself credit where
credit is due. And I mean, just not just, you
know what I'm saying, the, the grand yourself and people need

(33:25):
to feel, you know, it's about the small accomplishments.
Like you said, if you're, if you're getting out of bed of
morning, if you're actively trying to survive, you're doing
something you're not, you're notdoing nothing.
And I don't think enough people get credit for that.
I agree. So just circle back before I
wrap up what I'm talking about back to our train analogy.

(33:48):
So now that I'm in a place whereI have the capacity to think
about the tools that I need to stay in a better place, which
obviously I'm taking a medication that's prescribed for
me. So that is to me kind of like
the foundational piece for whereI'm at right now.
And that doesn't mean I'm going to have to be on medication
forever, but for right now, that's what I need to get

(34:11):
through the day. And so that's what I'm going to
do. And so talking back about our
train analogy, because I know this now and because I have the
capacity in my life to recognizethe pieces, the tools for in
quotations like a better word that I need to be putting in my
backpack because I know from time to time, every couple years

(34:32):
I'm going to find myself strapped to a train track.
So what tools do I need to have in my backpack so that I can get
myself off the track before the train comes?
And so these are some things that work for me.
They might not work for you. You may have tried them.
I find it's unfortunately one ofthose stupid things where
they're like, oh, eat healthy, exercise and get sleep, like OK,

(34:55):
and everybody's like whatever. That doesn't work.
Unfortunately, that shit works, man.
And that kind of sucks 'cause it's difficult to do and it is
impractical for a lot of people and not accessible for a lot of
people. So unfortunately, those things
work. I think it's important to think
about that those three things are like the three fundamental
things you have for Survivor. For basic Survivor, I have to

(35:18):
have water, I have to have food,I have to have some sort of
shelter. Like those are in like sleep.
Yeah, that's if you are not sleeping like you are not,
you're literally a different human being.
Like your brain is not at all functioning anywhere near the
capacity that it can. Like it's.
Those are all important pieces that are all a part of the

(35:38):
bigger picture. Yeah, and I'm glad you pointed
that out because like I mentioned earlier, you know the
body mind connection. So if I have access to food,
water, security, safety, shelter, I am signaling to my
body that I'm safe. And that's like, for me, half
the battle is feeling unsafe, which kind of triggers for me

(36:03):
the thoughts and the rumination and the obsessions to kind of
narrate what it thinks is causing me to feel unsafe in my
body. So yeah, I'm just going to
piggyback a little bit more on that.
So movement and whatever that looks like for you, for some
people, could be running, could be yoga, could be Pilates, it

(36:24):
could be literally walking in a park or doing an exercise video
on YouTube or just dancing to music in your kitchen.
What whatever way you're moving your body to signal to it that
it's safe in a way that doesn't create additional stress for
you. So if you're like stressed about
working out, that's not really, I don't know that the exercise
is going to offset the stress ofit.

(36:45):
No, but I think it's important to mention like I want to bring
up your your angry eagle walks that you take at work and
explain what those are to people.
So we just joke that like, if you were having a bad day at
work, you would just go take a trudge, you know, luckily where
you work, you can, you know, just walk down the street.
And so you just walk for, you know what, like less than a mile

(37:07):
or something. You just walk down the block and
back and do it. And I found a meme 11 time
online. It was just like this, this
eagle that looks just so annoyedjust trudging across the beach
like it just lost its fish. And she's like, ah, fuck, like
I'm on the ground. I don't, I want to fly, but it's
not like far enough to fly. So I'm going to just walk like

(37:29):
an asshole. And so I just reminded me of you
and you were like, yeah, that's 1000% like I'm just, I'm, I'm
walking my anger out. I'm just walking to regulate
myself. I'm not, I'm not walking for the
joy of walking. I'm moving because I have to
like. And so I just like, but that
helps like that, that makes a difference for you.

(37:50):
And I think it's a lot of people, it's just finding what
tools work for you. I mean, again, if we're talking
about the, if we're talking about the train analogy, like
you have to equip yourself with the tools that, you know, work
and that you know how to use properly.
Like if you don't have the correct tools, you're not not
going to have what you need. Yeah.
You're going to be tied to the train tracks when the train
comes. So piggybacking off of movement

(38:13):
being a nature, that could be hiking for us, it's hiking that
could just be sitting in nature,sitting in your yard, looking
out your window. There's been scientific studies
talking about how there's changes in the brain in a
positive way when you visually have access to seeing greenery.
So seeing trees, grass, flowers,hearing water creates a calmness

(38:38):
in the brain, which ties back toour survival and our, like,
security around having access tothose things.
But yeah, just being a nature inwhatever capacity that feels
good to you or that you actuallyhave access to listening to
happy music. Sometimes it can feel nice to
wallow in your feelings with some sad or angry music, and
sometimes you got to get that those feelings out with that.

(39:01):
Like, it's nice to scream. I have literally a playlist on
Spotify that says songs to scream to.
And if I've got some anger, thenI need to get out, put that on
as I drive to work, drive home from work and kind of get some
of those out. But in general, I find I feel
better from listening to happiermusic, yoga, meditation, talking
with a trusted friend or partner, seeking professional

(39:22):
help when needed, eating three meals a day, keeping a good
sleep routine, taking magnesium before bed and finding ways to
soothe my nervous system, whatever that looks like.
Taking a bubble bath, wrapping up in comfy clothes, having tea.
Again, A lot of these things aren't accessible to folks.

(39:45):
It's a privilege for me to have the capacity and the space in my
life that I do to be able to tend to myself in these ways.
A lot of the time, you know, we don't have kids.
We don't have to work 2 jobs to pay our rent.
There's, you know, we don't havean ailing parent in our home
that we're taking care of. So if I am struggling.

(40:09):
I can't imagine, you know, not that it's competition or that we
compare to each other, but I'm very privileged in the aspects
of what I have access to. I have a health insurance.
I can see a care provider. I was able to do yoga teacher
training. I've got that kind of knowledge
base. So I think it's important to
kind of explore things that you have access to and that's not
going to look the same for everyone.

(40:29):
And also, what works for you is not going to look the same for
everyone. No, no, it's not.
It's just that every person is different and everybody,
everybody experiences things different.
I mean, that's like I said, we use depression, anxiety, and
they're, they're still very broad terms as far as how
they're defined. And so it's, I think it's, you

(40:50):
know, as humans, we love to put stuff in boxes.
I think it's just from an evolutionary standpoint, it
just, that's how we figured out,you know, as Neanderthals.
Like, is this sate? Like, will this kill me or will
this not kill me? And yes.
And so we compartmentalize everything and everybody's going
to do that differently. Everybody's going to have a
different way of processing thatand, you know, holding that

(41:12):
information, using that information when they need it.
And, and so I think it's just important that you find what
works for you. And that's, I mean, like we
joked this weekend when we were on our hike that, you know, so
you know, it was a, it was a tough hike.
And you said, oh, like, why do we, why is this our hobby again?
And I said, you know, some sillysarcastic remark.
And then later on I thought about it.
It's like, well, because it's cheap.

(41:33):
Like it's not. I mean, like I said, we, we
spent some money to go actually camp there.
But as far as like just going and walking, like you can do
that a lot of places. It's very difficult in like very
urban environments. But I think that physical
activity is, is something that'salways accessible to people that
doesn't cost a whole lot. And so I think it's finding the
tools that work for you is very important.

(41:56):
I agree you want to dig into some of your whatever you're
comfortable sharing about what you've experienced in your 36
years. Yeah, I mean, I don't, I don't.
I didn't have a, I mean, which again, like you said, it's not a
competition And, and I think everybody's differently.
You see people that face a ton of adversity and grow up

(42:19):
perfectly fine and well regulated.
You see people that grew up, youknow, with a super easy, lavish
life and also struggle. And so everybody experiences
life differently. And all you can do is is talk
about your perspective and your,the context that you're working
with to help people understand where you're coming from.
But I never, I mean, I came from, you know, I had, my

(42:41):
parents had some issues, but they were, they have been
together for the entire day of my life.
So I've always had a solid stable home, a very supportive
home. That was never an issue.
I, I never felt unsafe or wanting as a child, if that
makes sense in a, in A at least a material sense where it's like

(43:03):
I always had a roof over my headand clothes and food and like I
said, and just love and support from parents, which a lot of
people don't have. But I think the biggest thing
looking back on which I, after years of, you know, armchair
therapy on myself, figured out that it was, you know, I played

(43:25):
like Little League baseball pretty much until I got to say,
8th grade maybe, but basically from from the time I could until
middle school. Yeah.
So I'm trying to think like 13 probably.
So, I mean, more than a decade Iplayed Little League baseball
and my dad was the coach. And it wasn't my dad wasn't like

(43:48):
the asshole peewee coach that you see.
That's just kind of a Dick and doesn't understand what's going
on. Like my dad, you know, was a big
fan of baseball, knew what he was doing, used to play it.
I mean, he was a great coach. If you, you know, look back,
he's friends with all our, you know, we had a core group of
players that played together or half a dozen of us for probably

(44:08):
the better part of, you know, 6-7 years.
I think some of those people were almost the entire time my
dad was a coach, they were on the team.
And I mean, they'll come to him for life advice.
Like he's a therapist. So I can't I can't speak like he
was a phenomenal coach in just about any capacity, but I think
being the coach's son gave me a kind of a weird perspective that

(44:33):
that I think messed me up. I don't say messed me up, but
just deregulated me in a way because like you always feel
like an outsider. Like I'm, I was never like
really one of the group with thekids because there was always,
you know, I'm the coach's son. So there's always a feeling of

(44:53):
not. And I don't.
I, I want to specify that this wasn't like warranted on my like
this wasn't people weren't outwardly making comments.
People weren't treating me in a way as though this is just like
how my brain perceived it looking back, knowing what I do
now feeling. Like, oh, they're only hanging
out with me because I'm coach's.Kid exactly yes, like it and but
I would. Choose me if I wasn't coach's

(45:15):
kid. Exactly.
And and again, and I'm not saying that that was that, that
was my perception, not in a way that like it wasn't active.
Like there's people out there that are like people bully them
and make shitty comments and you.
Don't have to justify. No, I'm I'm just saying I wanted
so people understand because I don't like it wasn't, you know,

(45:35):
I don't, I don't like I said, I didn't deal with a ton of real
crazy adversity and I just feel like that's a chip on my
shoulder that there are people that have gone through far worse
than me. And so I just feel like I take
space that I'm not supposed to and so I just want to try and
clarify. Yeah, no, I totally get what
you're saying. And obviously you're very
justified in having your feelings.

(45:55):
My and I, you're not the first person I've heard kind of
mentioned something that that myresponse to that is that your
nervous system only knows what it has experienced.
So your nervous system can't go oh, wow, that person had it way
worse. Like we, we should be cool.
Knock it off. It can only react to what it
personally has experienced, and so that's what makes it makes

(46:19):
like your perspective. No, that's fair.
Like I said, I just always I, I think that's why I don't, I
never really talked about that stuff, which it all ties back.
That's kind of where I was goingwith it.
Is that it? It always, it always made me
feel like an outsider, like looking back, like the rest of
my life, like socially I was, I never felt like I belonged
somewhere because I've always like in those early Devette

(46:41):
mental years, that's just what my, my whole social existence
was, is I was like, I like my, he was my dad.
So obviously it wasn't like, like I left baseball and he was
gone. Like he was always my dad and
so, but there was a just a disconnect from him, like being
my dad and being my coach. And I always remember that that

(47:03):
was something that stuck with meand that he said one time like,
Hey, like, I don't, there might be times that I yell at you and
I'm not like I can't yell at theother kids because they're not
my kids. And so, and it, and it wasn't
like he would go out of his way,but like if we were having a bad

(47:23):
practice or something and peoplewere missing, you know, missing
balls that he was hitting to them.
And I got all of them. But one like that one would be
like, he would kind of, I don't want to say lay into me, but
like he would, he would say whathe wanted to say, if that makes
sense. So you're going to get it.
From both sides, then you're feeling other.
Exactly. And isolated because he's kind.

(47:47):
Of and so that's why I never felt like it was like I said, I
always felt like an outsider. And I think that was always
because I've always been called,you know, throughout high
school, even middle school, likeI've always been called mature
for my age. And even, you know, if I was
like, up here at the lake house in the summertime, we would have
like, you know, friends would come over with my dad and I
would always just sit by the fire like a family on the wall

(48:09):
and just kind of absorb what wasgoing on.
I mean, just absorb the information.
Like I would just whatever stories they were telling,
whatever they were talking about, I would just kind of take
it all in and wouldn't really add anything.
And but people would always like, I always seem mature for
my age. I remember I had a couple of
college professors tell me like you seem much more mature than a
lot of the other students because I think a lot of people

(48:32):
go to a college to party and butthat's a whole, a whole other
thing. But I, I was just always an
outsider. And so I never like in school, I
would always have like one really good friend and I would
never be like would never hang out with people, would never go
places. Like I would have one friend
that I would sleep over with that I was like super
comfortable with and that was it.

(48:53):
And then I never was social withanybody else.
I wouldn't go anywhere. I wouldn't go do other stuff.
And then obviously when I was playing baseball, like that was
the social groups, like we wouldgo over kids houses for pool
parties and cookouts and it was all very social.
And so I was always way more friends with them than anybody
at school at that point anyway. So when I got away from that and

(49:15):
it was just me in school, like it was harder for me to kind of
find my place and find like my group of people.
And it's something that I even still as an adult struggle with
is just finding like my group ofpeople, like people that get me,
people that kind of understand my perspective.
And so it's still I, I'm not onethat has a ton of friends.

(49:35):
I have, you know, acquaintances and I have friends in the manner
of like people that if they called and asked me, I would do
things for them. But as far as like deep
meaningful relationships with other people other than you, I
mean, I don't like I said at least people my age ish.
Because that's another thing that I noticed is I would always
make friends with like the olderguy at work.
Like I, I worked a couple jobs were like, it was just me and

(49:57):
one manager. And so I would always become
good friends. Like I wouldn't necessarily go
over their house, but like we would talk about stuff that
wasn't just work related. Like we would talk about like
more philosophical stuff or like, you know, therapy session
type stuff. And that's been a pattern my
whole life of just like older, wiser people.
Like I would kind of put my energy into them and trying to

(50:20):
learn from them. And I would spend a lot less
like trying to just be with people my age and in like the
same context of their life because I think it's important
for people to notice that like, you know, middle school, high
school, college, adulthood, early 30s, like those are all
kind of distinctive times in your life where you're going to,

(50:43):
not everything's the same, but there's a lot of similarities.
And that's why, you know, we group people in generations like
Gen. X and Millennials and, and all
that is because everybody has seen the same chunk of time in a
similar context, if that makes sense.
And so. OK, so I think I've just always

(51:04):
struggled with finding a, a sense of belonging, which I
think cascades into yourself, you know, your, your purpose,
your sense of purpose. I think if you don't have a, a
sense of belonging, you're not going to really have a sense of
purpose because you don't know where you belong.
And so I think there's kind of this sketch 22 of, of not
knowing where you fit in. So yeah, I've always, I've

(51:24):
always just struggled with that.And so, so no, I went and did
talk therapy and. So what prompted you to decide
at that point in time to do talktherapy?
Well, I was dealing, I was very depressed at the moment, which I
think depression is something I had struggled with, but I just
didn't have the vocabulary for it.
And so there would be times. So before I met you, I was

(51:47):
living by myself and I just never like never went out.
Like I woke up, I went to work, I came home, that was it.
I never, I never went out. I never was never social.
But I wasn't like, it wasn't like I had a hobby or something
that I was sacrificing that timefor.
I just wasn't like I was literally just existing.
And you know, looking back, likeI was depressed.
And so I was dealing with that again and it was getting just

(52:10):
heavier than it had ever been before, which that's why I made
the distinctions about suicidal aviations earlier because it
would get to the point where I wouldn't like actively think
about committing suicide. But I would be just driving and
just think like, well, like I have the ability to just turn
off the road, like to just turn off the Cliff or just turn into

(52:33):
oncoming traffic. Not, not a want to or a desire
to simply an acknowledgement of the fact that I could.
And so I think that's why I didn't understand like to me
when I say suicide, like it's anactive, which I think that's why
you said when you qualified as passive, but it just it wasn't.
And that's why I said, you know,and I got to that point where I

(52:55):
felt that way and I was like, I should probably try something,
even if it's just going and talking to somebody because I
had glad. That you were able to kind of
recognize that and realize that you needed to make a change
somehow before, you know that had the potential to progress
into more than active. Because I talked to, I talked to
my GP about it and that's what Iwas like.

(53:16):
I really don't like, I would rather try something before I
get on like an SSRI or get on medication.
Like I didn't feel like I was that bad to the point where I
needed to do that because I justhaven't.
I think a lot of people it's SSRI's are very or I mean, just
mental health medication in general is not
one-size-fits-all. Like what works for somebody is

(53:36):
going to be counterproductive for somebody else.
And that just all seemed too much to me.
Like I was afraid it was going to just make things worse.
And so I would have like volunteered to make it worse.
And so I've just always been very weary of like mental like
antidepressants and stuff like that just because I in in, from
the information that I have seen, it's rarely best case

(54:01):
scenario, you know what I mean? Like it's interesting.
I, I at least I perceive it as like, you don't hear a ton of
major success stories where people like get on the
antidepressant boom, I'm fine. Like I which again you can't
define normal but. So I think you touched on a
super important point that a lotof people feel in denial that

(54:22):
they might need the assistance of medication or they don't want
to use it or this thought like what if it makes it worse or
what if it doesn't work? And So what if I have put hope
into a solution that doesn't work in a time where I don't
have a lot of hope in general can be a really like self
limiting belief that some peoplehave.

(54:44):
I, I have shared a similar belief around medication.
And so I think that's one reasonwhere I really get to a point
where I am suffering so much that it begins to affect me at
work or begins to affect me at home.
It is not until I think my suffering can negatively affect

(55:07):
other people that I begin to take it seriously.
Yeah, like I get to a point where I'm like, well, if
somebody else is going to noticethat something's wrong, that I
need to intervene and I wish I didn't.
And I hope other people hear that and they realize that your
own suffering is recent enough to try to figure out what's
going on with you. But I also understand the flip

(55:27):
side of like being afraid to andnot not knowing if it's going to
work. And if you're have to try a
couple different medications, you've got to be on medication
for like 6 weeks before you can say whether it works or not.
And so now you're kicking that can further and further down the
road in terms of looking for relief.
So I understand why that's a really daunting task for people.
And that's why, and I want to circle back to, to something you

(55:50):
had said about like yourself suffering because I think there
are people out there. We're like, that is the purpose.
I think, especially for, I mean,I don't obviously we're not
parents, but I think a lot of parents look at it that way.
And there were times when I was really depressed where that's
what kind of got me was like, I just have to keep like the house
moving, like I need to keep it so that I'm not affecting you.

(56:12):
And so I need to like keep this at least keep the status quo as
far as like, you know, we're, we're partners, we live
together. There's like a minimum standard
that we both expect. And like that was what would be
like, I need to at least keep this.
And so I think it's important that people like it's a it's a,
you know, it's a two way St. in that like for some people like

(56:34):
that sacrifice, if you will, is what is actually keeping them in
the game, you know what I mean? And and so I think that's just
an important distinction to make.
But yeah, no, I was just very reticent to deal with that.
Alcoholism ran on one of my sides of the family and I that

(56:55):
was a rabbit hole I definitely didn't want to go down.
I mean, I had self medicated with substances before when I
was younger and those just seemed easier to control than
like a medication. Like you said.
That's, I mean, the issue with the medication is it takes time
for that medication to kind of get you in regulation.
Like you need to sometimes even titrate your dosage and figure

(57:17):
out like where that sweet spot is.
But there's a whole lot of shit that comes with doing that.
And like, to me, I mean, there'salways the, you know, the old
joke that you listen to these medication commercials and all
the side effects that they list.And it's like, it sounds like
the side effect is worse than the symptoms that I already
have. And so why am I going to pay
money to take a pill that's going to make me feel worse than

(57:40):
I feel right now? And so I think for me and from,
for, for a lot of people, that'swhere my reticence came from.
And so I was like, well, I'll try, you know, talk therapy.
It's which I think Western medicine is terrible about the
order in which we do think like we're like, let's do the most
expensive, most invasive thing 1st instead of something that's
cheap, like something that's easily accessible.

(58:02):
And so I had always been weary of, of talk therapy, just like
you had mentioned, or like we had mentioned before about like,
I'm pretty self aware, like I kind of know what my issues are.
It's the, the, you know, the drive and the gumption to do
that myself, like to actually take the active steps to do the
hard work that you need to do towork on yourself.

(58:25):
And so I was like, well, I'll go, which I'm not saying talk
therapy is terrible. I think I had a great therapist,
super nice person. I think they were very good.
There were some concepts that they helped explain to me that
made a lot of sense. There was definitely information
I took from it, but I was going into it expecting like a middle
school teacher expecting me to like have my homework done.

(58:47):
So you were looking for someone to hold you accountable?
Yes, no, because I that is one thing I've always struggled
with, which I think ties back tothe issues that I had being the
coach's son is I'm not self accountable like I was always
I'm my own worst critic. I'm never good enough.
And so it's hard for me to do like I don't, I don't want to

(59:10):
put the effort in to be a failure.
Like it's, and so it's hard for me to start doing things like
it's hard for me to overcome that inertia to do the hard
stuff because I'm like, I just have like a paralysis to keep me
started. Like I'm so worried about what
the outcome could be that I don't focus on like what I want
the outcome to be and what it, what it could be in a positive

(59:32):
way. I'm so focused on the negative
that I don't give any time or space or energy to what the
positive could be. And that's if you don't mean
the, the joke about the lottery,if you don't, you know, if you
don't play, you can't win. And so I think I always took
that as like, well, I just won'tparticipate then.
And because if I don't participate, I can't lose, but I

(59:54):
also can't win. And so like just existing and
not winning or losing is arguably worse than losing.
I mean, that's again, you know, they always say it's better to
have loved and lost than never loved at all.
And I think that's all it's kindof the beauties in the eye of
the beholder that it's, it depends on where you're looking

(01:00:14):
at it from and what your perspective is.
And so it was always hard for me.
Yeah, I'm just. Yeah, no, you're good.
Something you said around like being home and not having
hobbies. Maybe think of this weekend
while we were driving, we were listening to an episode of
Ologies. Shout out Ellie Ward.
Yes, absolutely love Ologies. It's one of the first podcasts

(01:00:35):
that like, we can reasonably agree on 100% of the time to
listen to. Always, always good.
Always great even the topics that you're not super sure are
going to enjoy 10 out 10 listen to them they're.
Often the best ones. So we were listening to an
episode called Sayugenology. I might be butchering that word,
but it is Why Humans Require hobbies.
Part 1 with Julia Hotz. And they were talking about in

(01:00:58):
other countries, like these, kind of like social
prescriptions. So someone's coming in and
they're saying, like, I don't have any hobbies.
I feel really isolated. I don't have a lot of friends.
They may have a physician who prescribes them to go to an art
class once a week. So they're doing something
creative. They're getting out of the
house, they're socializing. They're like creating community.
And they have found that those social outcomes are so much more

(01:01:20):
beneficial than where we might experience going into AGP here
in the US saying the same thing and being told like, well, let's
get you. So way cheaper on the healthcare
system. Yes, yes.
So if you're able to write a prescription for a swimming
class and that person's engagingin movement in the community and
activities with socialization, then they're able to kind of

(01:01:44):
mitigate those negative symptomsthey're experiencing without
pharmacological or talk therapy interventions that are a lot
more expensive. I think it's also interesting
because it kind of forces you into like a fight or flight mode
because you're even if it's something that you, you might be
interested, even if it's because, I mean, I don't they
didn't go into the Super detailsabout if you go in and say like,

(01:02:06):
oh, can you prescribe me a swimming class?
It wasn't anything necessarily like that.
But I would think anytime you'rejust going into a group of
strangers, like that's going to kind of put you in the fight or
flight mode, that's going to putyou on the defensive.
And so I'm wondering if there's a therapeutic benefit even just
from that state. But even if they don't

(01:02:27):
necessarily get anything, like if they don't get anything out
of the class itself, yeah, even just the going to do it probably
had benefits. I would agree with you.
I would say choosing to and engaging in a new experience,
especially one that you find intimidating, builds resilience
and it builds self-confidence that you're able to kind of do
something that's uncomfortable and a little bit scary and come

(01:02:49):
out on the other side of it. And you're kind of showing your
nervous system that you can you can take care of yourself and
those aspects. And when you think about it,
that's, I mean, all that's how you make friends as an adult is
through shared interests. And so if you, like I said,
you're going to go to a class and chances are there's somebody
in that class that has a similarviewpoint to you and you could
get along really well and be friends outside of that class.

(01:03:09):
Yeah, but you got to show up first.
Yes, and I think that's the the social aspect is what I've
always struggled with. And you know, you never want to,
you know, I think that it's a generational thing that, you
know, you never want to ask for help and you never want to
admit, you know, weakness or however you want to say it.
But I think that's there's always a negative connotation of
mental health. And I think even still, we've
made a lot of strides to it in this country.

(01:03:31):
But I think there's still a lot of room to like allow people to
feel their feelings and understand that like everybody
has their own struggle. Everybody deals with their
thrown way and everybody has their own perspective.
I mean, it's easy when you say mental health to think of, you
know, a schizophrenic person that is very obvious in how
they're dealing with their mental health issues.

(01:03:53):
Yeah. And yeah, we talked about like
older generations sometimes, youknow, personal schizophrenia
would be institutionalized and they would be kind of kept away
from society in that way. And so a lot of our older
generations have fears even now around like nursing home
placement, because in their mind, they're remembering what
that used to look like and what institutionalization used to

(01:04:14):
mean. And it's kind of difficult for
them to cope with. But I think it's also just
making sure that we have the theright vocabulary to describe
like how it is that we're that we're not feeling.
And I'm not trying to call you out, but I'm going to just for
the sake of the context of what we're talking about.
You said a schizophrenic person,where the term now would be a

(01:04:37):
person with schizophrenia. So it's called people first
language and it's just really centering the person above and
beyond whatever their challengesare in life.
Gotcha. No.
And that's just like I said, that I think that's just, people
are just ignorant to that. Yeah.
And it's not that you were doinganything wrong.
I just thought this would be theperfect opportunity to kind of
point out that. No, and that's and really the

(01:04:57):
only reason I I use that as an example is because like people
don't grasp like that person hastheir own world.
Like it's not it is they're not sharing the reality that most of
us agree to just out and about in society.
Like we're all kind of agreeing that there's like a general set
of rules that we're going to follow and a general way that

(01:05:20):
things work. And for people with, you know,
that particular or just in general, like severe, severe,
debilitating thing, like their world looks very different.
And so you, you don't know, likeyou don't know what their eyes
are seeing. You don't know what reality
they're existing in. And so you couldn't possibly,

(01:05:42):
you know, try and put yourself in their shoes.
And I think it's just having compassion to give give those
people the space that they need.No, I agree with you entirely.
And you're talking a little bit about like the language that we
have now that wasn't really usedor was very taboo in the past.
And people, you know, you'll hear a lot like kind of our

(01:06:03):
parent generation talk about I don't understand why everybody
has to have a label. Why does everything has to be
labeled? Why you have to have these
diagnosis? And it makes me think of this
and I've pulled it up on my computer.
So it says, why do you need a label?
Because there's comfort in knowing you're a normal zebra
and not a strange horse. Because you can't find community
with other zebras if you don't know where you belong.

(01:06:25):
And because it's impossible for a zebra to be happy or healthy,
spending its life feeling like afailed horse.
And so I, I know that it's kind of looked down upon to kind of
hold on to your diagnosis, But for me, I found it very
informative to know that what I'm experiencing or the

(01:06:47):
experiences that I'm having are because I am a person who has
anxiety or a person who has depression.
There's a name for it and there's a certain set of
criteria for it, whether it's all the right all the time or
wrong. And there's still something to
be said about feeling like you aren't just crazy, like you're

(01:07:12):
not just the only person who's ever experienced what you're
experiencing. So being able to find community,
and that can go both ways, I mean, depending on the
communities you find. But I think having that sense of
connection is only made capable because we're able to identify
those aspects of our selves in that way.

(01:07:33):
No. And that's, and that's why I
said, I think in the beginning of the episode, I think it's
important to have the right words for what you need because
like you said, it's, it's about finding community.
And that's, I think, you know, Ithink the, the biggest solution
to mental health issues is a social aspect.
It's getting you to find the person that you need to be.

(01:07:56):
And you can only do that with a social mirror, if that makes
sense. Like you can only do that
reflected back to you in other people.
Like so other people that you respect, other people that that
you admire their perspective or their whatever it is, there's
going to be somebody that you'regoing to look up to as an
example. And you were going to use that

(01:08:18):
as a reference for yourself. And so I think when you have the
right words, you're looking at the right examples, you have the
right social mirror instead of having a funhouse mirror that is
distorted to what a broader society without this things or
just a generalization of what everybody thinks.
I think it's important that do you have the right information?

(01:08:41):
And that's why we put labels on things.
That's why we name things is because there's people that
share this. And then I think the other thing
about, you know, the reason why we talk about this stuff is the
more people talk about this, themore information that we have,
like the better we can diagnose,the better we can treat, the
better we can do everything we need to do because everything is

(01:09:01):
about information. And so it only helps having
information. And so people need to, to share
stuff and, and be open about stuff because you don't know,
you know, like you said earlier,if somebody had told you, you
know, in high school, like what,how much of a difference that
could have made in, in, you know, what your future look
like. And I think especially now with

(01:09:21):
the younger generations, I thinkthey're, I think they're seeking
that out more actively than any of us ever did, you know, than
any of our generations ever havebecause they're dealing with a
lot more stuff, because they're dealing with a lot more stuff.
Yeah, I agree. I think that our age and younger

(01:09:43):
have access to a lot more, and they're taking advantage of
that. And I think that's really great
for society as a whole, just to be able to acknowledge our
feelings and recognize those andname them and figure out how to
work through them to get to the other side.
Yeah. All right.
Is there anything else you want to share?
Like this has been a long one. It has been, I don't know.

(01:10:05):
I know I rambled a little bit. I don't so, but I think there's
some, I think there's some good information there.
I think there's some some stuff people will appreciate or
reflect on. Any final piece of information
that you would like to impart onsomeone?
I just it's nothing's one-size-fits-all fine, you
know, find what fits, find what works for you and do that and

(01:10:29):
don't if something doesn't work for you, I don't, you know,
don't be afraid to walk away from that with the caveat being
like it's going to take a while for medication to work.
It's not going to work overnight.
I mean that's AI think. With anything, it's not going
to. Work, but I know, but it's, it's
an especially popular, not popular, but it's an especially
prominent issue where like people start taking

(01:10:52):
antidepressant and then like feel better in a month or six
weeks and they're like, I don't need this anymore.
Like it's working. That's why you feel better.
So and then they they stop taking it and then they get
dysregulated. So then there's like a whole
transition period and they're back to being dysregulated.
And so it's I think give stuff the proper time that it needs.

(01:11:14):
But if something doesn't work, find something out.
Don't They're so especially in this in this day and age,
there's so many options. You can find one that works for
you. But like I said, it's you might
have to, you know, you might have to put a little work in to
get there, but arguably usually the work should be less painful

(01:11:36):
than the than the treatment, so.I appreciate that.
I would say my parting words on the topic would be you're not
alone with whatever it is you'regoing through.
There's other people who are experiencing that and have
experienced that and have come out on the other side.
So please trust yourself and invest in yourself and seek out

(01:11:58):
what treatment options and solutions work for you that you
can put in your personal toolboxso that when you see the train
coming in the distance, you're, you have ample time to get out
of the way. Again, you're not alone in this.
We hope that you enjoyed this episode and hopefully got some
information that you can take away or maybe give you some

(01:12:21):
perspective on somebody else in your life who you know kind of
deals with these challenges. Obviously, our stories are two
unique stories. Lots of people have very similar
stories so. No, I think I will add that just
to to cap it off, as you know, ask people if if they need
something. Yeah, check on your friends.
I think a lot of people, yeah, never want to ask.
And I mean ask like worst case they're going to say no.

(01:12:42):
And, and don't be wrong, a lot of people process and deal with
stuff in their own way. So if you ask somebody and they
say no, leave it, leave it at that.
Yeah. But you'd I think you'd be
amazed at how just asking somebody how they're doing, you
might, you might get, you might get a lot more than you think.
Yeah. And I think you could, you could
make somebody's day by simply asking, you know, a question.

(01:13:04):
And so don't don't be afraid to do that either.
Yep, at the end of the day, we're all just walking each
other home. Yeah, all.
Right. So this is a heavy episode.
We super glad if you stuck around here to the end of it.
So thanks for hanging out. If you have any comments or
questions, anything you want to add down below so that you can

(01:13:28):
kind of engage in the conversation.
If you have any questions about anything specifically, we talked
today, we're happy to share additional information with you.
Should have said this in the beginning, but yeah, this is our
personal experiences. We're not doctors.
We're not. Trained health?
Yeah. No, we're not professionals.
This is just two assholes. Opinions.
Two assholes who've been throughsome shit and sharing what

(01:13:49):
worked and what didn't. Yeah, so thanks for listening to
me ending Millennials this week.Do all the things on all the
socials, comment, share, subscribe, you know all the
things. Do them.
We appreciate it. It's very helpful and it lets us
know that you guys are enjoying what we're doing and you're
getting something away from it, so keep it up.

(01:14:09):
Thanks. Yeah.
And for folks who stuck around at the end, we've got two
additional Nuggets of information we'd like to share.
So wrapping up, what was your favorite piece of media that we
experienced this week? We didn't do a lot.
We were really planning for our trip.
I. Know.
You I think you know what I'll I'll shout out, I'll shout out.

(01:14:31):
Dan, we listen to, we didn't getthrough all of it, but we
listened to the the Time Suck episode about Mr. Rogers and.
It was such a true delight. It is.
I mean, all of them are good. I really do like when he does a
deep dive on like a person, a specific person that's not a
serial killer. I mean those are also good but
but no. Shout out to time suck Dan

(01:14:51):
Cummins. It's hilarious.
If you get a chance, check it out.
We're scared to death. If you're into horror, His new
nightmare fuels or no his His nightmare fuels are self written
fiction. Yes but no.
If you're in the scary stuff also super cool.
Check it out Bad Magic Productions.
Excellent shout out. I think I'm going to go with the

(01:15:13):
episodeologies that we talked about.
I just thought that creating that social aspect and community
to treat health outcomes was so interesting.
And I think such a, we've touched on, you know, social
media stuff here and there, but when you live in a digital
world, then you're really isolating yourself from a world
of community. And I just thought it was really

(01:15:35):
cool. And we were on our hike
yesterday whenever like we got to the top and there was a
couple that came up behind us. And as soon as the guy got to
the top and he like saw the summit and saw the matter.
And she was like, wow. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, this
is what it's like all about. And we're like saying hi to
people on the trail and just like having that sense of

(01:15:55):
community with strangers who were engaging in a like a shared
activity. We weren't hiking with anybody
else. It was just us, but just people
you engage with on the trail. And I just don't think there's a
ton of opportunities that we really sit in awe of something
and just to like have that shared moment was pretty cool.
I don't. Know, no, I, I want to mention

(01:16:15):
that because you said it, I wantto mention we were maybe 2 or
300 yards from the top and we were, and a guy, a couple was
coming down and a guy said like,like, look at this, like, I
don't know any of these people, but like, we have all done this.
He's like, I'm proud of you. Like just as we're walking by
just a group of strangers, just like we suffered the same, you

(01:16:36):
know, because that's, I even said to him as he was walking
away, like, Oh yeah, the struggle is real.
Like we all went through that same exact particular struggle
and we all got, you know, something different out of it
when we got to the end. But in, in sharing that moment
and having that community, it was something more powerful than
just a bunch of assholes, you know, walking up a hill.

(01:16:57):
And and so I think that goes back to the social aspect.
We were talking about early episode.
And also, I just want to say that, yeah, like Facebook
doesn't count. Like go do an actual class in
person. Don't join a Facebook group when
we say be social as far as a prescription for mental health,
not social media. Like actual real in person
social stuff. Yes, so again, shout out to the

(01:17:20):
Salu genealogy episode Why Humans Require Hobbies Part 1
with Julia Hotz on the Ologies podcast.
Go check it out. We just thought it was pretty
impactful and pretty influentialto kind of how our day went
yesterday and just kind of influenced how we talk about
community moving forward. No, also just a good podcast.
Yeah, also that ally words. Awesome ologies.

(01:17:42):
Check it out. And what was the best thing you
ate this week, dude? Best thing I ate.
I'll go first. Not necessarily I want to say
like the best thing I ate, but Iwas pretty excited that on our
way to Shenandoah Nash Park, we drove through Waynesboro, VA and
there is a all gluten free bakery and Bistro called Crack a

(01:18:05):
Dawn. So we stopped by and I got one
of each of the six available flavored cupcakes because I can
like never buy cupcakes out. So tried them.
They were delicious. I normally don't pick a sweet as
my favorite food of the week, but I'm going to go with them
just 'cause that's the first time I've ever like gotten a
cupcake I think since I. Haven't been sweet.

(01:18:27):
No, but just having the ability to walk.
In somewhere. I know the whole place is gluten
free and I can pick whatever I want.
That never happened. So that was my pick of the week.
Yeah, that's awesome, I'm sure. I'll go with we went to Aces for
my birthday dinner and I'm goingto go also with sweet.
I always get there they have a banana Nutella bread pudding

(01:18:50):
with a rum like a rum caramel sauce and I get that Ala mode
with a nice big old bat scoop ofvanilla ice cream and it is
delicious, top notch. Good.
Yeah, it was for your birthday dinner, so I'm glad you enjoyed
it. Yeah, we do have plans this week
to make a Earl Grey latte cake with a honey buttercream icing,

(01:19:13):
so hopefully that gets accomplished this week and we
can tell you about it next week.Yeah, about to find the time.
Find the time probably Saturday.Yeah.
All right. So again, next week, Episode 8,
we're going to talk a little bitabout our first camping trip of
the year, our camping setup. We car camped in Shenandoah
National Park, so we'll share a little bit about that, a little

(01:19:33):
bit more about our hike and how our first night sleeping in a
car went. Yeah, it'll be interesting.
Check it out. Bye.