January 27, 2025 • 39 mins
Witness the power of dialogue as I sit down with Gabby Timmis from Braver Angels, an organization transforming America's political landscape. Born from the aftermath of the 2016 election, Braver Angels began as two friends and a renowned therapist came together to mend the nation's divides. Through innovative Red Blue Workshops, they foster understanding between Trump and Biden supporters, growing into a significant movement with over 100 alliances and 14,000 members nationwide. Discover how their approach, likened to couples therapy for the nation, is reshaping perceptions and uniting communities through empathy and shared goals.
Curious about how seemingly irreconcilable beliefs can coexist? Explore the unique exercises of Braver Angels, like the fishbowl, where participants engage in moderated discussions on hot-button issues—without interruptions. The focus isn't on changing minds but on fostering genuine reflection and understanding. This conversation delves into the discomfort and growth found in embracing opposing views, drawing parallels to religious dialogue. With initiatives such as the Braver Network and national conventions, Braver Angels is leading the charge in creating spaces for respectful dialogue across society, from local cafes to corporate boardrooms.
In this episode, personal stories bring the impact of Braver Angels to life, including a touching account of familial reconciliation. Gabby shares insights into navigating political disagreements within families, with resources like the Family and Politics e-course providing practical support. The episode concludes with reflections on the broader applications of these skills, encouraging listeners to foster meaningful connections beyond politics.
See link for more info.
http://braverangels.org/
**The information provided on this podcast does not, and is not intended to, constitute legal advice; instead, all information, content and materials available on this site are for general informational purposes only. Information on this podcast may not constitute the most up-to-date legal or other information. This podcast contains links to other third party websites. Such links are only for the convenience of the reader, user or browser.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
On this episode of Meaning in Moxie After 50, I
chat with Gabby Timmis fromBraver Angels.
Braver Angels is a group that'sbasically couples therapy for
America.
They're tackling politicaldivides but don't worry, no
one's throwing chairs like areality show.
If you've ever thought, can wejust all get along?
(00:23):
This episode is for you.
Tune in for laughs, insightsand maybe a little hope for
humanity.
Hope you enjoy it.
I'm Leslie Maloney, retirementcoach and podcast host.
I'm all about helping younavigate the many transitions of
this next chapter, fromredefining purpose to finding
(00:47):
joy in the everyday.
We dive into real stories,practical tips and inspiring
conversations.
So whether you've alreadyretired, you're planning for it
or you're just starting to thinkabout what's next, join me for
this fun and fearlessexploration of life's second act
(01:10):
, because life after 50 isn'tthe end of the story.
No, far from it.
It's where the magic trulybegins.
Go to my website,meaninginmoxieafter50.com for
more information and now let'sget going with this week's
episode.
All right, everybody, welcomeback to another episode of
(01:34):
Meaning in Moxie After 50.
And I have a really timely,interesting interview here today
.
I have Gabby Timmis with usfrom Braver Angels organization.
You may not be familiar withBraver Angels.
You're going to find out aboutthem today and the great work
(01:56):
that they are doing and we'regoing to be discussing why, of
course, I think probably all ofus will recognize why it's so
timely, so welcome.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Gabby, thank you.
Thank you so much for having me, leslie.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Yeah, so tell us a little bit about Braver Angels.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
How it got started, I guess, yeah, so, braver Angels,
it really started in the wakeof the 2016 election, after we
saw how you know how muchdivision and polarization was
just happening throughout thecountry, across all different
sides.
The origin story is that,essentially, the 2016 election
(02:35):
happened and there are twofriends, both named David.
One, david, was based inManhattan, in New York City, and
the other, david, was based inOhio.
And the Manhattan David callsup his Ohio David friend and
says David, what in Manhattan,in New York City?
And the other, david, was basedin Ohio.
And the Manhattan David callsup his Ohio David friend and
says David, what are people inOhio, what are you guys thinking
about this election?
You know how did you guys feelabout it?
And David in Ohio says oh, youknow, we're delighted and you
(02:56):
know, we're not at all surprised, like we thought Trump was
going to win and we're happyabout it.
Yeah, things are good.
And he said how about you guysin Manhattan?
What are you guys thinking?
And you know, david, manhattanwas like, oh, here in Manhattan,
everyone's hair is on fire andeveryone's completely shocked
that Trump won.
And so then the two men juststarted talking and they had
been, you know, they'd workedtogether for years and they were
just like how strange in thesame country, there's two
(03:18):
completely different reactionsto the same election.
And what's that about?
Yeah, so and so then DavidBlankenhorn, who's our who's our
president, he's the one who'sbased in Manhattan said what if
we just got a bunch of Trumpvoters and Hillary voters in a
room together for a weekend?
What if we just did that?
You know what would that looklike.
Here's a nice social experimentin November, after the 2016
(03:40):
election.
And so they were talking.
The two Davids started talkingto a third friend, bill Doherty.
Bill Doherty is like a worldrenowned couples and marriage,
marriage and family therapist,and so they're telling Bill
about this idea.
You know, we're gonna bringTrump voters and Hillary voter
and Clinton voters in the roomtogether and just see what
happens.
And Bill Doherty says youcannot do that.
(04:03):
You know you can't just throw abunch of people in a room
together after a highlycontentious election.
You know where.
There's a lot of feelings andemotions around it.
That's not going to go well.
And what Bill said is what youneed is structure, you need some
guidelines, you need, you know,like a workshop essentially for
people to go through, and theysaid, okay, well, can you put
(04:23):
something together?
And he said, well, we'll seewhat I come up with.
And basically Bill went away for48 hours and came back with
what we now call our Red BlueWorkshop.
So that workshop was the firstBraver Angels Workshop and now
we've grown out from there.
It was a weekend long and fromafter that they said they saw
(04:44):
lightning in a bottle and theydid a whole bus tour throughout
the United States putting onthese workshops throughout the
country and then to not to burythe lead, but now I should say
Braver Angels is the largestgrassroots organization in the
United States, working to bridgethe partisan divide and really
working to address polarization.
So now we have over 100alliances throughout the country
.
We have over 14,000 members.
(05:05):
So we've we've certainly grownsince 2016,.
But, yeah, a lot more work tobe done for sure.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Sure, and just getting us to talk to each other
and realizing that we have waymore in common than we than we
have different.
Yeah, and we're ultimately allafter the same things in terms
of, you know, peace, stability,taking care of our loved ones,
you know, faith, hope, all that.
(05:35):
Yeah, that's at the core ofwhat we think is right or wrong.
Um, so you mentioned that thereare alliances all over the
country, so would that mean thaty'all are in every state and
and that if somebody locallylike I'm here in florida, if
somebody locally wanted to reachout, how would they do that and
(05:57):
and go?
Speaker 2 (05:59):
ahead.
Yeah, so so braverangelsorgslash alliances,
a-l-l-i-a-n-c-e-s alliances.
If you go there, you can seeexactly where, where in the
country we are.
In some, in some states we have, you know, multiple alliances.
For example, I'm the I shouldsay I'm the director of
(06:20):
communications for Brave Angelsat the national level, but I'm
also the blue co-chair for ourNew York City Alliance.
So New York State, we havemultiple alliances.
We have Westchester Alliance,we have Albany, you know
whatever.
But other states don't have asmany local alliances but they
likely have state coordinators.
So if you're in a state wheremaybe you don't see a local
(06:41):
alliance right away, you canstill reach out to a state
coordinator and try to getconnected and you could
potentially even start analliance yourself.
I started our alliance here inNew York City because we didn't
have one, so you can definitelydo that.
The one thing is, for all ofour alliances and all of our
leadership we have, we start upa red-blue balance.
So an alliance can't startuntil you have a red blue, a red
(07:05):
co-chair and a blue co-chair.
So that's how everythinghappens.
So, so in New York City, Iwanted to start something for a
while and I ended up meeting mynow friend, brent, who is a red,
is a red or conservative, andso he and I started our alliance
together.
So, but if people want to justcheck out, you know, see what's
(07:25):
in their town, see what's intheir area, braveangelsorg slash
alliances is a good place.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
So are you meeting once a month within those
alliances?
I mean, I know, let me, let mejust talk about my experience
with Brave Rangers.
So back during it was sometimeduring the COVID time, when a
lot of things were canceled andof course, we were resuming all
over the place.
When a lot of things werecanceled and of course, we were
resuming all over the place andI had a friend of mine from an
organization that I used to be apart of.
She proposed it as one of ourmeetings.
(07:51):
She knew about you, all She'dhad.
I can't remember what herexperience was.
She was like well, let's bringin Braver Angels, and this
organization happened to be anenvironmental organization and
so let's do the topic of climatechange and have a red blue
conversation about climatechange, because there's a lot of
(08:12):
strong opinions and feelingsaround that, and so I have to be
honest, I was pretty skepticalabout the whole thing.
I thought all right, especiallydoing it on zoom, yeah, whole
thing.
I thought all right, especiallydoing it on zoom, yeah, because
you're not, you're not, you'renot having that face to face.
(08:33):
I'm a very I I've you know thatI like people in front of me
just to be in, because bodylanguage and all that.
I think some of that is lost,sometimes online, and anyway it
was.
We went through the process,which which I want to talk more
about, and we were split in.
You know, we I want to talkmore about, and we were split in
.
You know, we were split offinto different rooms and we were
to talk and then come back anddebrief and all, and it was
amazing.
By the end of it, you reallysaw that we were all on the same
(08:58):
page.
Ultimately.
Yeah, yeah and um, it was justa different perspective on on a
few different twists on thattopic of climate change.
Yeah, and it was just.
It was Matt.
I ended up, I ended up walkingaway from it and I came.
I came out after, after we wentoffline and I said to my
husband that was masterful waythat and it took about maybe an
(09:22):
hour hour and a half.
I want to say we were meetingmaybe two hours on.
I don't know, but can you talkthrough?
What is the secret sauce there?
What is that, step by step,gets people to realize they are
pretty close in how they feel.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Well, one thing that was just coming up as you're
talking, like one of our thingsthat we really strive for is
accurate disagreement, which issomething just in my own, even
beyond, you know, even outsideof Braver Angels, if I'm talking
to a friend or I'm talking toone of my parents or something
like that, it's so nice to havethat frame of mind and be like
you know, try to figure out whatis the 80% of this issue that
we agree on and wherespecifically do you go this way
(10:01):
and do I go that way?
And because so often we talkabout our like, we talk about
politics and we say, like theeconomy, well, there's so much
to the economy, you know.
We say like abortion, we saythese big or climate change or
all that you know, and there'sso much more involved in all of
these conversations, and we justkind of say, well, I'm on this
side of the issue or I'm on thatside of the issue.
(10:22):
And then the nice thing aboutonce you get specific about
things you can really thinkabout like, oh, we actually
agree on all these differentthings, you know.
Kind of interestingly, but I'llcircle back to your question,
but a quick story that just, Ithink makes this point is that
someone in Braver Angels wastelling me that after Robey Wade
was overturned, she whoconsidered herself to be
(10:43):
pro-choice went out for a mealwith her friend who considered
himself to be pro-life and theystarted talking about abortion
and the specifics aroundabortion and they realized that
she who considered herselfpro-choice was actually more
conservative on the issue ofabortion than he who considered
himself pro-life.
They just labeled themselvesdifferently, but maybe she
thought she was pro-choicebecause she thought abortion
(11:04):
should be legal up until 12weeks or something like that,
and he considered himselfpro-life because he thought
abortion should, you know, berestricted.
You know whatever, but it'sjust.
It just shows how sometimes,when we get super general and
and uh, vague about our labelsand our views, you know you
don't really know where peopleland.
So so good, yeah, sorry, Ididn't say the secret sauce of
(11:31):
Brave Angels.
So, first and foremost, I meanBill Doherty is such a secret
sauce of Brave Angels.
This.
He's an incredible career as amarriage and family therapist
and he's so intentional with howhe structures all of our
programs, so all of ourworkshops, everything is
structured by him and with hiswork in mind.
And again, it's, it's, it's we,we do.
You know, it's the guardrail.
So we have different.
(11:51):
We have guardrails in ourconversations.
We have moderators in all ofour conversations.
For our debates, we have debatechairs, so we have people.
That the the way I like to thinkabout it is there's something I
learned about in grad schoolcalled the productive zone of
disequilibrium, which is thisidea that there's kind of a
sweet spot for conflict andwhere conflict can be productive
(12:12):
.
Oftentimes we're either conflictavoidant and so there's no work
, there's no progress being madeon that front, or once we start
talking about hot, difficultissues, it goes completely off
the rails immediately.
But for Brave Angels, since wehave these guardrails and we
have moderators and we havestructures and different ways of
doing that in these workshops,I think for people that are like
, well, this is weird.
(12:33):
I'm like, you know I'm going tohave this really structured
political conversation, but yourealize, the structure is what
allows you to stay in that zonewhere you're confronting
conflict or talking about here'swhat I, here's what I believe,
and you're speaking.
You know one of our coreprinciples is speaking freely,
fully, without fear.
So you are saying exactly whatis on your mind and you are
given complete, you know spaceto do that, and then you're
(12:55):
hearing someone else sayingexactly what's on their mind and
they might be completedisagreement with you, but
because of those guardrails,because of that structure,
you're staying in the zone andyou're kind of talking to one
another and you're face to faceand all of that.
So there's many differentsecret sauces, but that is that
is.
That is one part of it for surethe guardrails and the
structure.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Can you get.
So you mentioned that accuratedisagreement, which I really
like that term, and you knowthat's, and you said let let's
focus on the 80 we agree on andthen let's maybe dig down.
Yeah, that is really worthworth highlighting again,
because we could all walk aroundand do that in our lives, yeah,
(13:35):
and just take breath and andjust find that middle ground,
because it's there, yeah, andthen you know we all have our
different ways we see the world,and why we?
we do because a lot of timeswhen you can explain well,
here's why I see it this waythen people can go.
Well, I I may not agree withthat, but I can understand yeah,
no, exactly yeah give us anexample of a guard, a guardrail
(14:01):
in action yeah, so, um, well, so, okay, so here's just an
example.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
So, um, in our red blue workshop, which is kind of
our premier workshop it's theone that I, when I spoke about
brave angels, kind of in thebeginning um, this is what that
was, that first um workshop, um,so one aspect of the red blue
workshop is what we callfishbowl.
So fishbowl is in the red blueworkshop context.
All the blues will go in acircle and the reds will sit
(14:30):
outside that circle and listenand they'll be asked questions
about.
You know, why do you believewhat you believe?
Why would you blue and like,what reservations do you have
about your side?
So all the blues will speakamongst themselves while the
moderator asks some questions,and then they'll switch and the
reds will do the same.
Then they'll go in the middleand they'll talk about why
they're red and why they believewhat they believe, and then you
(14:51):
know what reservations theymight have on their own side.
So just this practice of onegroup is talking, the other
group is listening, and they'relistening, and you're taking
notes and you're really kind oflistening intently, and then
you're switching and then theother group has an opportunity
to speak, just something likethat, where it's like, you know,
(15:12):
no one can get up whilesomeone's talking and say you
know you're wrong for believingthat, because you know there's
no back and forth crosstalk,nothing like that.
It's really just let's giveeach side full access to just
share exactly what's on theirmind, and then you know again,
there are different um parts ofthe workshop.
So, uh, another part of the redblue workshop is um blues go
(15:33):
away and um formulate questionsfor reds and reds are the same.
Reds go away and formulatequestions for blues, and then
reds and blues meet up and theystart asking each other
questions.
And I've done this before.
I've gone to the workshops andso I remember the one I was in.
We were talking about guns, wewere talking about abortion, a
lot of you know hot button.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
So not just not just one topic, then just general
platform stuff.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Exactly so, and it so for Brave Rangers.
One of our core things is thatyou're not listening to convince
anyone of anything.
One of our main things is youare not here to change anyone's
mind.
We're here to change people'sviews of each other, not the
issues, so anyway.
So just to go back to theprocess of when you're asking
(16:19):
each other questions, we havemoderators there, so moderators
can step in at any point and sayhold on, can you reframe that
or can you know?
Okay, this is getting a littletoo hot, like what if we pull
back for a minute?
And I will say like in myexperience the moderators never
have had to step in and do a lot.
I think it's kind of like humanbeings kind of rise to the
(16:39):
occasion that they're in.
You know what I mean, so thatwhen you know you're operating
with the, then the structure andyou all have this like mutual
hope of understanding oneanother, people just kind of
naturally rise to the occasion,even when it's difficult.
Even you know, I always say Ioften get stomach aches when I
go through some of this stuffjust very natural, normal human
responses.
You know you get a littleuncomfortable, but it's a matter
of like staying in thatdiscomfort and working through
(17:00):
it, and then at the end you'relike, wow, we did that, you know
, and my discomfort didn't haveto throw this whole conversation
off the rails can we pauseright there, because I think
there's a lot of gold in that,because we've, we don't, we
don't like to be uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Yeah, and part of the reason I think we're
uncomfortable is because we, wefeel like we know, this is what
I know and this is where I I,this is where I kind of live in
opinions, and so now I'm goinginto something that might get me
to shift a little bit myperspective, and do I want to do
(17:41):
that?
yeah um, and and.
So sometimes we can get sorigid and and in that and and
challenging ourselves, like toput our how, how, um, because if
we really do truly believe whatwe believe, then if I see
(18:01):
another perspective, it's notgoing to necessarily change me.
Yeah, it's not aboutnecessarily changing you.
It's just about seeing, seeinganother perspective and just
realizing there are otherperspectives.
Yeah, I think that can be hardand challenging for a lot of us,
yeah, and I and I I'm trying tounder, I guess it's because we
(18:21):
want to be right.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
We want to feel like we're right.
What's so interesting?
Because, again, as we say inBrave Angels, like we're not
trying to moderate people, we'renot trying to like people will
be skeptical.
And then we're like do you wantus to be a bunch of centrists?
Not at all.
We want people to show up asyou are, in your full
partisanship.
You can be fully partisan.
You can say you know, no, youknow, we have plenty of folks.
(18:44):
I'm thinking of one of mycolleagues who just said a
speech the other day.
She said she, from just apolicy perspective, could be
considered far right, like shecould be considered very, very
conservative but dispositionallyshe is so open to conversation,
she is so open to talking topeople who she disagrees with.
She's also very confident inher worldview.
(19:06):
She's very confident in herperspectives, but she's very
open to other people.
And that's the thing thatpeople don't realize that those
two things can exist together.
But they can.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Yes, and that's yeah.
That's kind of the point I wastrying to get at.
You know that it's almost likeyou know, I mean to use religion
as an example and some peoplereally defend their religion for
whatever reason.
And then there are many othersthat have their spiritual
beliefs and they can go out andtalk to anybody about what they
(19:37):
believe and there's no, there'sno challenge there.
It's just kind of like oh, tellme what you think yeah so I
think that when maybe, maybeit's when we're not confident,
yeah is when we're the mostuncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
I don't know, I'm just throwing that out there no,
it's a great, it's a reallyinteresting point because
actually it's funny.
One thing we've heard from folkswho've gone through brave
angels workshops um, they'vesaid like, wow, I've never
actually thought that deeplyabout my views before and here,
isn't that funny that we likeget into these really hot, you
know arguments and we're goingback and forth and we're like
fighting for our lives on thisissue and like my god and the
(20:13):
ruins, thanksgiving and all thatstuff.
But you've never actually satthere and thought about, okay,
like again for me, and like I me, and like I can say this for
myself like there have beentimes where I'm like I'm pro
choice, but if someone asked mespecifically, what are the
limitations on that?
When do you feel comfortable?
When do you not feel like?
And just like actuallysincerely asked me about like
how many weeks is it to thisterm or that term?
(20:36):
Like it's like, oh my gosh,I've never actually had to sit
there and had someone reallysincerely want to understand my
perspective.
You know, you can you juststart fighting in those vague
fights, but once you actuallyhave to start digging into it,
you're like, wow, I've neveractually thought this deeply
about it before, which is ironic.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Well, and it's critical thinking.
I mean that's what we'retalking about here, and so many
of us don't take the time toreally think it through and be
critical thinkers.
We get caught up in theemotions of it and I would think
that your model here have anyschools taken on your model?
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Yeah, it's a great question.
So we are, we've we have apresence at hundreds of colleges
across the country.
We've done a ton of differentcampus debates.
So, universities this kind ofmodel works really well,
obviously because young peopleare exploring what they actually
think about the world andthey're excited to talk about it
(21:35):
and debate about itno-transcript.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Not debate, because this is not a debate.
But are you?
Are people watching?
You have some reds and someblues on a stage and then people
are watching that um unfold infront of them.
How do you do?
Speaker 2 (22:25):
that.
That's a good question.
So we actually Braver Angelsactually does do debates, so we
do have um programs for that Umand we've done debates at the
high school level.
Um in terms of schools andworking with administration, I
don't know enough, but it's afairly new program.
But I know I think it initiallystarted just when there was a
lot of animosity within schoolboards, I think especially
(22:46):
during COVID.
There was a lot of conflictthere.
So I think they started withparents and teachers and school
boards and working with thosefolks.
But I do believe that they'reworking on, I know, at the
college level.
They have a curricular toolkit,so they have a toolkit for
professors to be able to use inthe classroom of you know how to
(23:06):
have these conversations in agood way, and I think they might
be developing something similarfor high school and middle
school.
I'll have to check back on themwith that, okay.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Okay, and unfortunately in some of the
public schools we have just shutconversations like that down
altogether.
You can't talk about that atall and it's unfortunate.
So I'm glad to hear that thereare people like we can.
We can have these conversationsand it's okay.
So I think school board workingit at a school board level too,
(23:37):
because that helps you get inthe door to the schools if the
school board can handle it,Maybe.
Maybe you get in the door tothe schools If the school board
can handle it.
Maybe the kids in the schoolscan too.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Yeah, and to show them it works yeah exactly so.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
the organization sounds like it's just grown
dramatically since 2016.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Yeah, yeah.
So, and we I sometimes joke I'mlike we're like a mutant
octopus that grows like a newtentacle all the time.
So we have, you know, we haveour work on college campuses, we
have our work with schools, wehave our work with faith
communities, we have our workwith journalists and media, we
have our work with.
One of our bigger initiativesnow is something called Braver
Network.
So the idea being there.
(24:16):
You know, braver Angels alonecan't solve polarization in this
country.
We know that.
But if we can createessentially a coalition of many
organizations across manyindustries and many fields that
are interested in this idea,then we can build a broader
movement.
So for Braver Network, youdon't have to be a civic
(24:38):
organization or a bridgebuilding organization in order
to be part of that coalition.
We have folks, we have localcafes, we have hairdressers, we
have museums, we have colleges,we have, you know, any
institution that is interestedin bridging the partisan divide
in one way or another is welcometo be part of Braver Network.
(25:01):
Um, and then, you know, throughthat we bring in more and more
people to to our, to our program.
So, um, yeah, we've definitely,uh, definitely grown, and
certainly now there's always alot of um interest leading up to
election, so I'm sure moregrowth to come.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Do you have any like?
Let's say, I was a corporateCEO and I wanted to bring you
all in and have some kind of adialogue with my employees.
Are you all doing somethinglike that?
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Yeah, we have.
So we have a couple of nationalambassadors John Wood Jr.
Monica Guzman is a greatspeaker and I know has worked
with different organizations.
Bill doherty, who I mentioned,one of our co-founders um, I
know he's done work with uh incorporate environments to to
help people.
He's actually doing one soon onhow to navigate political
(25:52):
differences in the workplace.
So, um, definitely somethingthat we have on our radar, kind
of, really, I'm like almost anyaspect of society we are
thinking about and probably havesomeone trying to work on, I
imagine so Cause it's so, it'sso vast.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Yeah, what are some of your wins?
When you think about your winsand some of the amazing stories,
I'm sure there's a lot.
What are some of the ones thatpop in your mind?
Speaker 2 (26:25):
lot.
What are some of the ones thatpop in your mind?
Great question, so a big one,that we had this past summer.
We had our national convention.
We had 750 people there.
It's half red, half blue, whichis a huge undertaking to make
sure that it's completelybalanced and and so that I mean
that's just always amazing.
We do these national conventionsannually but we'll be actually
(26:47):
we're not doing it every otheryear, but I mean it's just
incredible.
It's like four days ofprogramming.
You know when I tell peoplewhen I'm in the midst of
planning it, like, yeah, I'mplanning something for four days
with half liberals, halfconservatives together.
Four days with half liberals,half conservatives together.
Oftentimes we do it on acollege campus.
This time we did it in Kenosha,at Carthage College.
So folks in some cases aresharing rooms together.
(27:10):
It's quite intimate and it'squite all packed in, but for
four days it's just folks reallyworking sincerely on this issue
, and what progress can we make?
And we're building friendshipsand relationships and there's a
lot that comes out of thatnational convention.
So that's just a big win.
And you know, from a mediaperspective, I'm always excited
about the coverage that we get.
So we were actually featured ona New York Times podcast, our
(27:33):
convention was, and we were on.
Al Jazeera and Wall StreetJournal's covered us recently,
and PBS and CBS, so we've gottensome really wonderful media
coverage.
So that's kind of on the macrolevel.
I mean, on the micro level,there's so many just incredible
stories.
One story that comes to mindthis one's just gut-wrenching,
but there's a woman, janice, inWashington State, and she wrote
(27:57):
her alliance this reallybeautiful note.
She wrote to them about how shewas taking care of her dad.
Her dad was sick and in hislast year or two she was taking
care of him.
She was her full-time caretakerand, um, she was a blue, he was
a red.
She used to come into his homeand you know she'd hear fox news
and it would just set her offand and it just would set the
(28:19):
wrong tone, you know in in theirrelationship and and and it
just would set the wrong tone,you know, in the relationship
and so they were just kind of ateach other's throats a bit and
through her work with BraverAngels and specifically she
credited the friendships thatshe made across the aisle, so
the friendships that she madewith conservatives she totally
started changing her disposition.
She stopped getting so upsetabout hearing Fox news, she
(28:41):
started getting a lot morecurious about, you know, her dad
and his views and they just hadthese really beautiful, really
meaningful conversations and thetwo of them just developed so
much more depth in theirrelationship.
And she said, you know, intheir his final months, she, you
know, nothing was left unsaidbecause of this group of angels
that you know, it could havebeen something that you, he
(29:04):
ended, he ended up passing awayand so, you know, she said, like
there was, there was nothingthere that I regretted, like we
ended up just really being ableto talk to each other and
understand each other and heareach other in this last few
months of life, and it's's justlike what greater gift than that
, like that we can actuallyunderstand one another.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
And you know it's just so.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
That's the story that comes to mind, but there's so
many stories like that with, Imean, married couples with
parents and children.
You know I I've spoken aboutwith my own dad.
You know I'm a blue, he's a red, and we've had plenty of
disagreements and, um, the workof brave angels has really
helped, you know, I can say formyself, has really helped me
(29:44):
talk to him and understand himbetter.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
So, yeah, it's about relationships really and it
really is, and it's we.
When you see relationshipsdestroyed because of politics,
yeah, and, and you know we, alot of this is out of our
control and people we don't evenknow, yeah, and yet the person
(30:07):
sitting next to me now I'm angryat them and our there's a wedge
in our relationship and what awaste that is that we allow to
occur.
And you said something earlieron that a lot of times we avoid
it.
You said there were two thingswe do either avoid it, and there
was something else, I guesscrash in or or something, or
just goes completely off therails.
(30:27):
Yeah it's like too hot or toocold.
Yeah, exactly, and and you knowthat whole thing about don't
talk about religion and politicswhen you go into but but that's
not healthy either, because weall feel that yeah we feel that
in play, like we can't really bethe the full person that we are
.
Yeah, let me just say I'm notgoing to talk about it either
(30:49):
yeah, I totally agree yeah, soit sounds like.
Is there something like infamilies, if a family get ready
for thanksgiving or somethingare there?
Are there resources on yourwebsite that somebody could go
to and use?
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Yeah, so a couple of things.
So we have a family andpolitics e-course that anyone
can do.
If you're a busy person on yourown time, you can run through
that e-course.
I find it super interesting,super helpful, again developed
by Bill Doherty, and heidentifies different roles that
different people in the familyplay.
Some people are like thedefender and they're always
(31:26):
defending their views.
Some people are kind of theprovoker, the provocateur and,
you know, agitating people Likeyou know, we all have these
different roles that we play inour families.
And one point that always stuckwith me in a really interesting
way from that e-course he talksabout, you know, how family
dynamics play into politics.
(31:46):
So, for example, if you thinkthat you know, if you always
felt your whole life that yourmom always took your brother's
side, and then suddenly you'retalking about politics and
you're just disagreeing withyour brother and then your mom
takes your brother's side andthen it's like you always took,
you know it suddenly becomes sopersonal, it's no longer about
the politics, it's about thepersonal.
So there's a lot of interestingdynamics with family.
(32:10):
So yeah, the family andpolitics e-course is a really
great thing anyone can do.
We also have a family andpolitics workshop.
We do, I should mention.
We have plenty of in-personconversations and workshops for
people to join, but we also havea lot on Zoom.
So if people don't haveanything in their area, that's a
workshop we often you can I'msure you can guess why, but we
often offer the family andpolitics workshop right in the
(32:32):
weeks coming up to Thanksgiving.
So there's often Zoom workshopsthat people can drop into for
that.
The other thing I'll justmention, depending on when this
episode comes out, but onoctober 19th, um bill doherty,
our couples therapist.
Um will be working with, uh,two loved ones who are divided
(32:53):
on politics and what he does isa live conversation.
It's almost, it almost lookslike a therapy session.
So it's a live conversationwith two loved ones who disagree
on politics and they talkthrough it and he will counsel
them.
So he's doing he's doing thatlive on October 19th and it's
just like I will say from my end, I'm like it's the most
interesting content I've everconsumed, cause it's like it's
(33:16):
so vulnerable and it's sointimate, but it's also so
helpful because anyone canreally apply it to their
relationships and so it's superinteresting.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Yeah, because really apply it to their relationships
and so it's super interesting.
Yeah, because, like you said, itgoes beyond politics this, it's
really, it's, it's, it'steaching people how to relate in
and whatever, and whatever thetopic happens to be, yeah, so
which we can all use help on,yeah, because we can all dig in
at different times.
I'm thinking about locally here, so let's go back to that how
(33:47):
we get involved with BraverAngels.
We need to go to the websiteand we need to look and see
about the local alliances, yeah,and will those people come out
and help moderate a group?
If somebody wanted to do a blue, red type thing, will?
they drive and and.
Is there a fee?
And how does that work?
Speaker 2 (34:09):
yeah, so we don't charge for any of our workshops,
but we do have a whole uhnetwork of moderators trained
moderators throughout thecountry who can help put on the
workshops.
Um, it really just depends oncapacity, like I know.
Um, so we have a bunch ofdifferent roles in in braver
angels we have moderators.
We know.
So we have a bunch of differentroles in Braver Angels we have
moderators.
We have debate chairs.
We have organizers.
Organizers are the folks whokind of do the nuts and bolts of
(34:30):
planning, because oftentimesour moderators they're not the
event planners necessarily, butif an organizer and a moderator
can work together to put on anevent, that's definitely doable.
But, yeah, we have folks, wehave churches reach out, often
wanting to do things with us orum schools or stuff like that.
So, um, yeah, I think the bestfirst step, depending on um
(34:52):
where folks are in the country,is to go to that alliances
webpage and see if you have analliance nearby you, that's
awesome.
I would reach out to thoseco-chairs.
If you don't, I would reach outto the state coordinators and
see who they might be able toput you in touch with.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Yeah, it's such great work it really is, on so many
different levels.
Anything that we're not as westart to wrap up here, anything
that we're not touching on thatyou'd like to be sure to mention
.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yeah, I'll mention.
So one thing that we're reallyfocused on is what we're calling
the American Hope Campaign, andit's this campaign to bring in
a lot more people to BraverAngels, and also in the process
of bringing people in to expandour reach and our impact to
elected officials, and so we'renot just impacting people at the
(35:42):
grassroots level, but we'realso bringing our work to our
political leaders throughout thecountry.
So I'll say two, I'll mentiontwo different initiatives that
are part of the American Hopecampaign for anyone who might be
interested.
The first is that we're doingit's a citizens commission on
immigration, so we're doingcommon ground workshops on the
issue of immigration throughoutthe country.
(36:03):
We're doing it at both at thegrassroots level, but then we're
also working in DC with some ofthe biggest immigration leaders
to see if we can bring themtogether across the divide.
So if folks are interested indoing something, a part of that,
they can go to our website andthey could potentially even be a
part of one of our commonground workshops.
(36:23):
We'd love to have folks orpeople, people are interested in
hosting one, um, even better,uh, so I'll mention that.
And then the other thing I'llmention, which I'm actually
heading up, is, uh, aninitiative on election day.
We are sending red, blue uhpairs to the polls throughout
the country on election day, um.
So the idea being that, youknow, we want to meet people
where they're at and a lot ofpeople are going to be at the
(36:45):
polling places on election dayand we want to show people you
can disagree on politics and youcan stand together and you can
still get along and you canstill be friends or anything
like that.
So I'll be doing it with my dadin Michigan.
We're from Michigan and so ifanyone wants to be a part of
that, we'd love to have you.
We just we're.
We're hoping to get a lot ofpeople out there doing that on
(37:05):
election day.
So, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
How, how high up in politics have you gone?
I'm just thinking this.
I would love to see BraverAngels moderate our next debate.
No, we would not be great.
Yes, Question there.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
We so we've built already has testified in front
of Congress.
So you know we've gotten tothat level.
But one of the things thatwe're really working on is state
legislatures.
So both in New Hampshire andMinnesota there's like
essentially like a Braver Angelscaucus of folks of reds and
blues, or Democrats andRepublicans In that case,
(37:45):
working together to try toreduce polarization in their
state legislature.
And you know, oftentimesthey'll work with our folks and
do red blue workshops with, youknow, their fellow legislators
and all of that.
So state legislatures are areally great place to kind of
start with us.
So we have a whole initiativecalled Braver Politics that my
colleague, elizabeth Dahl, headsup, and so she does a lot of
(38:07):
candidate debates and stuff likethat throughout the country,
but mostly at the local level.
But we have big dreams, so yeah, 2028.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Yes, well, I mean, it takes time to implement all
this and it sounds like you guyshave made huge strides.
So just such an interestingconversation this morning and a
food for thought for all of us,especially as we move into the
fall and get closer to Novemberand even beyond.
Because you know, I mean, it'spolitics is politics, and that
(38:37):
old adage don't talk aboutreligion and politics.
That's been around a long time,not just in the last 10 years
or so, so it's always kind of alittle hot potato.
Yeah, thank you so much, gabby,for sharing this information
and giving us your stories, andwe'll put all the Braver Angel
(38:57):
information.
Anything you want to throw inthere, just send it over to me
and we'll.
It'll be in the show notes forlisteners to go and dig around
and get more information.
Awesome, well, thank you so muchfor having me, leslie.
This is a lot of fun.
Yeah, thanks so much everybodyfor listening and hopefully
it'll give you some things tothink about and we will talk
soon.
Bye now, if this podcast wasvaluable to you, it would mean
(39:22):
so much if you could take 30seconds to do one or all of
these three things Follow orsubscribe to the podcast and,
while there, leave a review andthen maybe share this with a
friend if you think they'd likeit.
In a world full of lots ofdistractions, I so appreciate
(39:42):
you taking the time to listen in.
Until next time, be well andtake care.
On this episode of Meaning in Moxie After 50, I
chat with Gabby Timmis fromBraver Angels.
Braver Angels is a group that'sbasically couples therapy for
America.
They're tackling politicaldivides but don't worry, no
one's throwing chairs like areality show.
If you've ever thought, can wejust all get along?
(00:23):
This episode is for you.
Tune in for laughs, insightsand maybe a little hope for
humanity.
Hope you enjoy it.
I'm Leslie Maloney, retirementcoach and podcast host.
I'm all about helping younavigate the many transitions of
this next chapter, fromredefining purpose to finding
(00:47):
joy in the everyday.
We dive into real stories,practical tips and inspiring
conversations.
So whether you've alreadyretired, you're planning for it
or you're just starting to thinkabout what's next, join me for
this fun and fearlessexploration of life's second act
(01:10):
, because life after 50 isn'tthe end of the story.
No, far from it.
It's where the magic trulybegins.
Go to my website,meaninginmoxieafter50.com for
more information and now let'sget going with this week's
episode.
All right, everybody, welcomeback to another episode of
(01:34):
Meaning in Moxie After 50.
And I have a really timely,interesting interview here today
.
I have Gabby Timmis with usfrom Braver Angels organization.
You may not be familiar withBraver Angels.
You're going to find out aboutthem today and the great work
(01:56):
that they are doing and we'regoing to be discussing why, of
course, I think probably all ofus will recognize why it's so
timely, so welcome.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Gabby, thank you.
Thank you so much for having me, leslie.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Yeah, so tell us a little bit about Braver Angels.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
How it got started, I guess, yeah, so, braver Angels,
it really started in the wakeof the 2016 election, after we
saw how you know how muchdivision and polarization was
just happening throughout thecountry, across all different
sides.
The origin story is that,essentially, the 2016 election
(02:35):
happened and there are twofriends, both named David.
One, david, was based inManhattan, in New York City, and
the other, david, was based inOhio.
And the Manhattan David callsup his Ohio David friend and
says David, what in Manhattan,in New York City?
And the other, david, was basedin Ohio.
And the Manhattan David callsup his Ohio David friend and
says David, what are people inOhio, what are you guys thinking
about this election?
You know how did you guys feelabout it?
And David in Ohio says oh, youknow, we're delighted and you
(02:56):
know, we're not at all surprised, like we thought Trump was
going to win and we're happyabout it.
Yeah, things are good.
And he said how about you guysin Manhattan?
What are you guys thinking?
And you know, david, manhattanwas like, oh, here in Manhattan,
everyone's hair is on fire andeveryone's completely shocked
that Trump won.
And so then the two men juststarted talking and they had
been, you know, they'd workedtogether for years and they were
just like how strange in thesame country, there's two
(03:18):
completely different reactionsto the same election.
And what's that about?
Yeah, so and so then DavidBlankenhorn, who's our who's our
president, he's the one who'sbased in Manhattan said what if
we just got a bunch of Trumpvoters and Hillary voters in a
room together for a weekend?
What if we just did that?
You know what would that looklike.
Here's a nice social experimentin November, after the 2016
(03:40):
election.
And so they were talking.
The two Davids started talkingto a third friend, bill Doherty.
Bill Doherty is like a worldrenowned couples and marriage,
marriage and family therapist,and so they're telling Bill
about this idea.
You know, we're gonna bringTrump voters and Hillary voter
and Clinton voters in the roomtogether and just see what
happens.
And Bill Doherty says youcannot do that.
(04:03):
You know you can't just throw abunch of people in a room
together after a highlycontentious election.
You know where.
There's a lot of feelings andemotions around it.
That's not going to go well.
And what Bill said is what youneed is structure, you need some
guidelines, you need, you know,like a workshop essentially for
people to go through, and theysaid, okay, well, can you put
(04:23):
something together?
And he said, well, we'll seewhat I come up with.
And basically Bill went away for48 hours and came back with
what we now call our Red BlueWorkshop.
So that workshop was the firstBraver Angels Workshop and now
we've grown out from there.
It was a weekend long and fromafter that they said they saw
(04:44):
lightning in a bottle and theydid a whole bus tour throughout
the United States putting onthese workshops throughout the
country and then to not to burythe lead, but now I should say
Braver Angels is the largestgrassroots organization in the
United States, working to bridgethe partisan divide and really
working to address polarization.
So now we have over 100alliances throughout the country
.
We have over 14,000 members.
(05:05):
So we've we've certainly grownsince 2016,.
But, yeah, a lot more work tobe done for sure.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Sure, and just getting us to talk to each other
and realizing that we have waymore in common than we than we
have different.
Yeah, and we're ultimately allafter the same things in terms
of, you know, peace, stability,taking care of our loved ones,
you know, faith, hope, all that.
(05:35):
Yeah, that's at the core ofwhat we think is right or wrong.
Um, so you mentioned that thereare alliances all over the
country, so would that mean thaty'all are in every state and
and that if somebody locallylike I'm here in florida, if
somebody locally wanted to reachout, how would they do that and
(05:57):
and go?
Speaker 2 (05:59):
ahead.
Yeah, so so braverangelsorgslash alliances,
a-l-l-i-a-n-c-e-s alliances.
If you go there, you can seeexactly where, where in the
country we are.
In some, in some states we have, you know, multiple alliances.
For example, I'm the I shouldsay I'm the director of
(06:20):
communications for Brave Angelsat the national level, but I'm
also the blue co-chair for ourNew York City Alliance.
So New York State, we havemultiple alliances.
We have Westchester Alliance,we have Albany, you know
whatever.
But other states don't have asmany local alliances but they
likely have state coordinators.
So if you're in a state wheremaybe you don't see a local
(06:41):
alliance right away, you canstill reach out to a state
coordinator and try to getconnected and you could
potentially even start analliance yourself.
I started our alliance here inNew York City because we didn't
have one, so you can definitelydo that.
The one thing is, for all ofour alliances and all of our
leadership we have, we start upa red-blue balance.
So an alliance can't startuntil you have a red blue, a red
(07:05):
co-chair and a blue co-chair.
So that's how everythinghappens.
So, so in New York City, Iwanted to start something for a
while and I ended up meeting mynow friend, brent, who is a red,
is a red or conservative, andso he and I started our alliance
together.
So, but if people want to justcheck out, you know, see what's
(07:25):
in their town, see what's intheir area, braveangelsorg slash
alliances is a good place.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
So are you meeting once a month within those
alliances?
I mean, I know, let me, let mejust talk about my experience
with Brave Rangers.
So back during it was sometimeduring the COVID time, when a
lot of things were canceled andof course, we were resuming all
over the place.
When a lot of things werecanceled and of course, we were
resuming all over the place andI had a friend of mine from an
organization that I used to be apart of.
She proposed it as one of ourmeetings.
(07:51):
She knew about you, all She'dhad.
I can't remember what herexperience was.
She was like well, let's bringin Braver Angels, and this
organization happened to be anenvironmental organization and
so let's do the topic of climatechange and have a red blue
conversation about climatechange, because there's a lot of
(08:12):
strong opinions and feelingsaround that, and so I have to be
honest, I was pretty skepticalabout the whole thing.
I thought all right, especiallydoing it on zoom, yeah, whole
thing.
I thought all right, especiallydoing it on zoom, yeah, because
you're not, you're not, you'renot having that face to face.
(08:33):
I'm a very I I've you know thatI like people in front of me
just to be in, because bodylanguage and all that.
I think some of that is lost,sometimes online, and anyway it
was.
We went through the process,which which I want to talk more
about, and we were split in.
You know, we I want to talkmore about, and we were split in
.
You know, we were split offinto different rooms and we were
to talk and then come back anddebrief and all, and it was
amazing.
By the end of it, you reallysaw that we were all on the same
(08:58):
page.
Ultimately.
Yeah, yeah and um, it was justa different perspective on on a
few different twists on thattopic of climate change.
Yeah, and it was just.
It was Matt.
I ended up, I ended up walkingaway from it and I came.
I came out after, after we wentoffline and I said to my
husband that was masterful waythat and it took about maybe an
(09:22):
hour hour and a half.
I want to say we were meetingmaybe two hours on.
I don't know, but can you talkthrough?
What is the secret sauce there?
What is that, step by step,gets people to realize they are
pretty close in how they feel.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Well, one thing that was just coming up as you're
talking, like one of our thingsthat we really strive for is
accurate disagreement, which issomething just in my own, even
beyond, you know, even outsideof Braver Angels, if I'm talking
to a friend or I'm talking toone of my parents or something
like that, it's so nice to havethat frame of mind and be like
you know, try to figure out whatis the 80% of this issue that
we agree on and wherespecifically do you go this way
(10:01):
and do I go that way?
And because so often we talkabout our like, we talk about
politics and we say, like theeconomy, well, there's so much
to the economy, you know.
We say like abortion, we saythese big or climate change or
all that you know, and there'sso much more involved in all of
these conversations, and we justkind of say, well, I'm on this
side of the issue or I'm on thatside of the issue.
(10:22):
And then the nice thing aboutonce you get specific about
things you can really thinkabout like, oh, we actually
agree on all these differentthings, you know.
Kind of interestingly, but I'llcircle back to your question,
but a quick story that just, Ithink makes this point is that
someone in Braver Angels wastelling me that after Robey Wade
was overturned, she whoconsidered herself to be
(10:43):
pro-choice went out for a mealwith her friend who considered
himself to be pro-life and theystarted talking about abortion
and the specifics aroundabortion and they realized that
she who considered herselfpro-choice was actually more
conservative on the issue ofabortion than he who considered
himself pro-life.
They just labeled themselvesdifferently, but maybe she
thought she was pro-choicebecause she thought abortion
(11:04):
should be legal up until 12weeks or something like that,
and he considered himselfpro-life because he thought
abortion should, you know, berestricted.
You know whatever, but it'sjust.
It just shows how sometimes,when we get super general and
and uh, vague about our labelsand our views, you know you
don't really know where peopleland.
So so good, yeah, sorry, Ididn't say the secret sauce of
(11:31):
Brave Angels.
So, first and foremost, I meanBill Doherty is such a secret
sauce of Brave Angels.
This.
He's an incredible career as amarriage and family therapist
and he's so intentional with howhe structures all of our
programs, so all of ourworkshops, everything is
structured by him and with hiswork in mind.
And again, it's, it's, it's we,we do.
You know, it's the guardrail.
So we have different.
(11:51):
We have guardrails in ourconversations.
We have moderators in all ofour conversations.
For our debates, we have debatechairs, so we have people.
That the the way I like to thinkabout it is there's something I
learned about in grad schoolcalled the productive zone of
disequilibrium, which is thisidea that there's kind of a
sweet spot for conflict andwhere conflict can be productive
(12:12):
.
Oftentimes we're either conflictavoidant and so there's no work
, there's no progress being madeon that front, or once we start
talking about hot, difficultissues, it goes completely off
the rails immediately.
But for Brave Angels, since wehave these guardrails and we
have moderators and we havestructures and different ways of
doing that in these workshops,I think for people that are like
, well, this is weird.
(12:33):
I'm like, you know I'm going tohave this really structured
political conversation, but yourealize, the structure is what
allows you to stay in that zonewhere you're confronting
conflict or talking about here'swhat I, here's what I believe,
and you're speaking.
You know one of our coreprinciples is speaking freely,
fully, without fear.
So you are saying exactly whatis on your mind and you are
given complete, you know spaceto do that, and then you're
(12:55):
hearing someone else sayingexactly what's on their mind and
they might be completedisagreement with you, but
because of those guardrails,because of that structure,
you're staying in the zone andyou're kind of talking to one
another and you're face to faceand all of that.
So there's many differentsecret sauces, but that is that
is.
That is one part of it for surethe guardrails and the
structure.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Can you get.
So you mentioned that accuratedisagreement, which I really
like that term, and you knowthat's, and you said let let's
focus on the 80 we agree on andthen let's maybe dig down.
Yeah, that is really worthworth highlighting again,
because we could all walk aroundand do that in our lives, yeah,
(13:35):
and just take breath and andjust find that middle ground,
because it's there, yeah, andthen you know we all have our
different ways we see the world,and why we?
we do because a lot of timeswhen you can explain well,
here's why I see it this waythen people can go.
Well, I I may not agree withthat, but I can understand yeah,
no, exactly yeah give us anexample of a guard, a guardrail
(14:01):
in action yeah, so, um, well, so, okay, so here's just an
example.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
So, um, in our red blue workshop, which is kind of
our premier workshop it's theone that I, when I spoke about
brave angels, kind of in thebeginning um, this is what that
was, that first um workshop, um,so one aspect of the red blue
workshop is what we callfishbowl.
So fishbowl is in the red blueworkshop context.
All the blues will go in acircle and the reds will sit
(14:30):
outside that circle and listenand they'll be asked questions
about.
You know, why do you believewhat you believe?
Why would you blue and like,what reservations do you have
about your side?
So all the blues will speakamongst themselves while the
moderator asks some questions,and then they'll switch and the
reds will do the same.
Then they'll go in the middleand they'll talk about why
they're red and why they believewhat they believe, and then you
(14:51):
know what reservations theymight have on their own side.
So just this practice of onegroup is talking, the other
group is listening, and they'relistening, and you're taking
notes and you're really kind oflistening intently, and then
you're switching and then theother group has an opportunity
to speak, just something likethat, where it's like, you know,
(15:12):
no one can get up whilesomeone's talking and say you
know you're wrong for believingthat, because you know there's
no back and forth crosstalk,nothing like that.
It's really just let's giveeach side full access to just
share exactly what's on theirmind, and then you know again,
there are different um parts ofthe workshop.
So, uh, another part of the redblue workshop is um blues go
(15:33):
away and um formulate questionsfor reds and reds are the same.
Reds go away and formulatequestions for blues, and then
reds and blues meet up and theystart asking each other
questions.
And I've done this before.
I've gone to the workshops andso I remember the one I was in.
We were talking about guns, wewere talking about abortion, a
lot of you know hot button.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
So not just not just one topic, then just general
platform stuff.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Exactly so, and it so for Brave Rangers.
One of our core things is thatyou're not listening to convince
anyone of anything.
One of our main things is youare not here to change anyone's
mind.
We're here to change people'sviews of each other, not the
issues, so anyway.
So just to go back to theprocess of when you're asking
(16:19):
each other questions, we havemoderators there, so moderators
can step in at any point and sayhold on, can you reframe that
or can you know?
Okay, this is getting a littletoo hot, like what if we pull
back for a minute?
And I will say like in myexperience the moderators never
have had to step in and do a lot.
I think it's kind of like humanbeings kind of rise to the
(16:39):
occasion that they're in.
You know what I mean, so thatwhen you know you're operating
with the, then the structure andyou all have this like mutual
hope of understanding oneanother, people just kind of
naturally rise to the occasion,even when it's difficult.
Even you know, I always say Ioften get stomach aches when I
go through some of this stuffjust very natural, normal human
responses.
You know you get a littleuncomfortable, but it's a matter
of like staying in thatdiscomfort and working through
(17:00):
it, and then at the end you'relike, wow, we did that, you know
, and my discomfort didn't haveto throw this whole conversation
off the rails can we pauseright there, because I think
there's a lot of gold in that,because we've, we don't, we
don't like to be uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Yeah, and part of the reason I think we're
uncomfortable is because we, wefeel like we know, this is what
I know and this is where I I,this is where I kind of live in
opinions, and so now I'm goinginto something that might get me
to shift a little bit myperspective, and do I want to do
(17:41):
that?
yeah um, and and.
So sometimes we can get sorigid and and in that and and
challenging ourselves, like toput our how, how, um, because if
we really do truly believe whatwe believe, then if I see
(18:01):
another perspective, it's notgoing to necessarily change me.
Yeah, it's not aboutnecessarily changing you.
It's just about seeing, seeinganother perspective and just
realizing there are otherperspectives.
Yeah, I think that can be hardand challenging for a lot of us,
yeah, and I and I I'm trying tounder, I guess it's because we
(18:21):
want to be right.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
We want to feel like we're right.
What's so interesting?
Because, again, as we say inBrave Angels, like we're not
trying to moderate people, we'renot trying to like people will
be skeptical.
And then we're like do you wantus to be a bunch of centrists?
Not at all.
We want people to show up asyou are, in your full
partisanship.
You can be fully partisan.
You can say you know, no, youknow, we have plenty of folks.
(18:44):
I'm thinking of one of mycolleagues who just said a
speech the other day.
She said she, from just apolicy perspective, could be
considered far right, like shecould be considered very, very
conservative but dispositionallyshe is so open to conversation,
she is so open to talking topeople who she disagrees with.
She's also very confident inher worldview.
(19:06):
She's very confident in herperspectives, but she's very
open to other people.
And that's the thing thatpeople don't realize that those
two things can exist together.
But they can.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Yes, and that's yeah.
That's kind of the point I wastrying to get at.
You know that it's almost likeyou know, I mean to use religion
as an example and some peoplereally defend their religion for
whatever reason.
And then there are many othersthat have their spiritual
beliefs and they can go out andtalk to anybody about what they
(19:37):
believe and there's no, there'sno challenge there.
It's just kind of like oh, tellme what you think yeah so I
think that when maybe, maybeit's when we're not confident,
yeah is when we're the mostuncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
I don't know, I'm just throwing that out there no,
it's a great, it's a reallyinteresting point because
actually it's funny.
One thing we've heard from folkswho've gone through brave
angels workshops um, they'vesaid like, wow, I've never
actually thought that deeplyabout my views before and here,
isn't that funny that we likeget into these really hot, you
know arguments and we're goingback and forth and we're like
fighting for our lives on thisissue and like my god and the
(20:13):
ruins, thanksgiving and all thatstuff.
But you've never actually satthere and thought about, okay,
like again for me, and like I me, and like I can say this for
myself like there have beentimes where I'm like I'm pro
choice, but if someone asked mespecifically, what are the
limitations on that?
When do you feel comfortable?
When do you not feel like?
And just like actuallysincerely asked me about like
how many weeks is it to thisterm or that term?
(20:36):
Like it's like, oh my gosh,I've never actually had to sit
there and had someone reallysincerely want to understand my
perspective.
You know, you can you juststart fighting in those vague
fights, but once you actuallyhave to start digging into it,
you're like, wow, I've neveractually thought this deeply
about it before, which is ironic.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Well, and it's critical thinking.
I mean that's what we'retalking about here, and so many
of us don't take the time toreally think it through and be
critical thinkers.
We get caught up in theemotions of it and I would think
that your model here have anyschools taken on your model?
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Yeah, it's a great question.
So we are, we've we have apresence at hundreds of colleges
across the country.
We've done a ton of differentcampus debates.
So, universities this kind ofmodel works really well,
obviously because young peopleare exploring what they actually
think about the world andthey're excited to talk about it
(21:35):
and debate about itno-transcript.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Not debate, because this is not a debate.
But are you?
Are people watching?
You have some reds and someblues on a stage and then people
are watching that um unfold infront of them.
How do you do?
Speaker 2 (22:25):
that.
That's a good question.
So we actually Braver Angelsactually does do debates, so we
do have um programs for that Umand we've done debates at the
high school level.
Um in terms of schools andworking with administration, I
don't know enough, but it's afairly new program.
But I know I think it initiallystarted just when there was a
lot of animosity within schoolboards, I think especially
(22:46):
during COVID.
There was a lot of conflictthere.
So I think they started withparents and teachers and school
boards and working with thosefolks.
But I do believe that they'reworking on, I know, at the
college level.
They have a curricular toolkit,so they have a toolkit for
professors to be able to use inthe classroom of you know how to
(23:06):
have these conversations in agood way, and I think they might
be developing something similarfor high school and middle
school.
I'll have to check back on themwith that, okay.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Okay, and unfortunately in some of the
public schools we have just shutconversations like that down
altogether.
You can't talk about that atall and it's unfortunate.
So I'm glad to hear that thereare people like we can.
We can have these conversationsand it's okay.
So I think school board workingit at a school board level too,
(23:37):
because that helps you get inthe door to the schools if the
school board can handle it,Maybe.
Maybe you get in the door tothe schools If the school board
can handle it.
Maybe the kids in the schoolscan too.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Yeah, and to show them it works yeah exactly so.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
the organization sounds like it's just grown
dramatically since 2016.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Yeah, yeah.
So, and we I sometimes joke I'mlike we're like a mutant
octopus that grows like a newtentacle all the time.
So we have, you know, we haveour work on college campuses, we
have our work with schools, wehave our work with faith
communities, we have our workwith journalists and media, we
have our work with.
One of our bigger initiativesnow is something called Braver
Network.
So the idea being there.
(24:16):
You know, braver Angels alonecan't solve polarization in this
country.
We know that.
But if we can createessentially a coalition of many
organizations across manyindustries and many fields that
are interested in this idea,then we can build a broader
movement.
So for Braver Network, youdon't have to be a civic
(24:38):
organization or a bridgebuilding organization in order
to be part of that coalition.
We have folks, we have localcafes, we have hairdressers, we
have museums, we have colleges,we have, you know, any
institution that is interestedin bridging the partisan divide
in one way or another is welcometo be part of Braver Network.
(25:01):
Um, and then, you know, throughthat we bring in more and more
people to to our, to our program.
So, um, yeah, we've definitely,uh, definitely grown, and
certainly now there's always alot of um interest leading up to
election, so I'm sure moregrowth to come.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Do you have any like?
Let's say, I was a corporateCEO and I wanted to bring you
all in and have some kind of adialogue with my employees.
Are you all doing somethinglike that?
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Yeah, we have.
So we have a couple of nationalambassadors John Wood Jr.
Monica Guzman is a greatspeaker and I know has worked
with different organizations.
Bill doherty, who I mentioned,one of our co-founders um, I
know he's done work with uh incorporate environments to to
help people.
He's actually doing one soon onhow to navigate political
(25:52):
differences in the workplace.
So, um, definitely somethingthat we have on our radar, kind
of, really, I'm like almost anyaspect of society we are
thinking about and probably havesomeone trying to work on, I
imagine so Cause it's so, it'sso vast.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Yeah, what are some of your wins?
When you think about your winsand some of the amazing stories,
I'm sure there's a lot.
What are some of the ones thatpop in your mind?
Speaker 2 (26:25):
lot.
What are some of the ones thatpop in your mind?
Great question, so a big one,that we had this past summer.
We had our national convention.
We had 750 people there.
It's half red, half blue, whichis a huge undertaking to make
sure that it's completelybalanced and and so that I mean
that's just always amazing.
We do these national conventionsannually but we'll be actually
(26:47):
we're not doing it every otheryear, but I mean it's just
incredible.
It's like four days ofprogramming.
You know when I tell peoplewhen I'm in the midst of
planning it, like, yeah, I'mplanning something for four days
with half liberals, halfconservatives together.
Four days with half liberals,half conservatives together.
Oftentimes we do it on acollege campus.
This time we did it in Kenosha,at Carthage College.
So folks in some cases aresharing rooms together.
(27:10):
It's quite intimate and it'squite all packed in, but for
four days it's just folks reallyworking sincerely on this issue
, and what progress can we make?
And we're building friendshipsand relationships and there's a
lot that comes out of thatnational convention.
So that's just a big win.
And you know, from a mediaperspective, I'm always excited
about the coverage that we get.
So we were actually featured ona New York Times podcast, our
(27:33):
convention was, and we were on.
Al Jazeera and Wall StreetJournal's covered us recently,
and PBS and CBS, so we've gottensome really wonderful media
coverage.
So that's kind of on the macrolevel.
I mean, on the micro level,there's so many just incredible
stories.
One story that comes to mindthis one's just gut-wrenching,
but there's a woman, janice, inWashington State, and she wrote
(27:57):
her alliance this reallybeautiful note.
She wrote to them about how shewas taking care of her dad.
Her dad was sick and in hislast year or two she was taking
care of him.
She was her full-time caretakerand, um, she was a blue, he was
a red.
She used to come into his homeand you know she'd hear fox news
and it would just set her offand and it just would set the
(28:19):
wrong tone, you know in in theirrelationship and and and it
just would set the wrong tone,you know, in the relationship
and so they were just kind of ateach other's throats a bit and
through her work with BraverAngels and specifically she
credited the friendships thatshe made across the aisle, so
the friendships that she madewith conservatives she totally
started changing her disposition.
She stopped getting so upsetabout hearing Fox news, she
(28:41):
started getting a lot morecurious about, you know, her dad
and his views and they just hadthese really beautiful, really
meaningful conversations and thetwo of them just developed so
much more depth in theirrelationship.
And she said, you know, intheir his final months, she, you
know, nothing was left unsaidbecause of this group of angels
that you know, it could havebeen something that you, he
(29:04):
ended, he ended up passing awayand so, you know, she said, like
there was, there was nothingthere that I regretted, like we
ended up just really being ableto talk to each other and
understand each other and heareach other in this last few
months of life, and it's's justlike what greater gift than that
, like that we can actuallyunderstand one another.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
And you know it's just so.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
That's the story that comes to mind, but there's so
many stories like that with, Imean, married couples with
parents and children.
You know I I've spoken aboutwith my own dad.
You know I'm a blue, he's a red, and we've had plenty of
disagreements and, um, the workof brave angels has really
helped, you know, I can say formyself, has really helped me
(29:44):
talk to him and understand himbetter.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
So, yeah, it's about relationships really and it
really is, and it's we.
When you see relationshipsdestroyed because of politics,
yeah, and, and you know we, alot of this is out of our
control and people we don't evenknow, yeah, and yet the person
(30:07):
sitting next to me now I'm angryat them and our there's a wedge
in our relationship and what awaste that is that we allow to
occur.
And you said something earlieron that a lot of times we avoid
it.
You said there were two thingswe do either avoid it, and there
was something else, I guesscrash in or or something, or
just goes completely off therails.
(30:27):
Yeah it's like too hot or toocold.
Yeah, exactly, and and you knowthat whole thing about don't
talk about religion and politicswhen you go into but but that's
not healthy either, because weall feel that yeah we feel that
in play, like we can't really bethe the full person that we are
.
Yeah, let me just say I'm notgoing to talk about it either
(30:49):
yeah, I totally agree yeah, soit sounds like.
Is there something like infamilies, if a family get ready
for thanksgiving or somethingare there?
Are there resources on yourwebsite that somebody could go
to and use?
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Yeah, so a couple of things.
So we have a family andpolitics e-course that anyone
can do.
If you're a busy person on yourown time, you can run through
that e-course.
I find it super interesting,super helpful, again developed
by Bill Doherty, and heidentifies different roles that
different people in the familyplay.
Some people are like thedefender and they're always
(31:26):
defending their views.
Some people are kind of theprovoker, the provocateur and,
you know, agitating people Likeyou know, we all have these
different roles that we play inour families.
And one point that always stuckwith me in a really interesting
way from that e-course he talksabout, you know, how family
dynamics play into politics.
(31:46):
So, for example, if you thinkthat you know, if you always
felt your whole life that yourmom always took your brother's
side, and then suddenly you'retalking about politics and
you're just disagreeing withyour brother and then your mom
takes your brother's side andthen it's like you always took,
you know it suddenly becomes sopersonal, it's no longer about
the politics, it's about thepersonal.
So there's a lot of interestingdynamics with family.
(32:10):
So yeah, the family andpolitics e-course is a really
great thing anyone can do.
We also have a family andpolitics workshop.
We do, I should mention.
We have plenty of in-personconversations and workshops for
people to join, but we also havea lot on Zoom.
So if people don't haveanything in their area, that's a
workshop we often you can I'msure you can guess why, but we
often offer the family andpolitics workshop right in the
(32:32):
weeks coming up to Thanksgiving.
So there's often Zoom workshopsthat people can drop into for
that.
The other thing I'll justmention, depending on when this
episode comes out, but onoctober 19th, um bill doherty,
our couples therapist.
Um will be working with, uh,two loved ones who are divided
(32:53):
on politics and what he does isa live conversation.
It's almost, it almost lookslike a therapy session.
So it's a live conversationwith two loved ones who disagree
on politics and they talkthrough it and he will counsel
them.
So he's doing he's doing thatlive on October 19th and it's
just like I will say from my end, I'm like it's the most
interesting content I've everconsumed, cause it's like it's
(33:16):
so vulnerable and it's sointimate, but it's also so
helpful because anyone canreally apply it to their
relationships and so it's superinteresting.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Yeah, because really apply it to their relationships
and so it's super interesting.
Yeah, because, like you said, itgoes beyond politics this, it's
really, it's, it's, it'steaching people how to relate in
and whatever, and whatever thetopic happens to be, yeah, so
which we can all use help on,yeah, because we can all dig in
at different times.
I'm thinking about locally here, so let's go back to that how
(33:47):
we get involved with BraverAngels.
We need to go to the websiteand we need to look and see
about the local alliances, yeah,and will those people come out
and help moderate a group?
If somebody wanted to do a blue, red type thing, will?
they drive and and.
Is there a fee?
And how does that work?
Speaker 2 (34:09):
yeah, so we don't charge for any of our workshops,
but we do have a whole uhnetwork of moderators trained
moderators throughout thecountry who can help put on the
workshops.
Um, it really just depends oncapacity, like I know.
Um, so we have a bunch ofdifferent roles in in braver
angels we have moderators.
We know.
So we have a bunch of differentroles in Braver Angels we have
moderators.
We have debate chairs.
We have organizers.
Organizers are the folks whokind of do the nuts and bolts of
(34:30):
planning, because oftentimesour moderators they're not the
event planners necessarily, butif an organizer and a moderator
can work together to put on anevent, that's definitely doable.
But, yeah, we have folks, wehave churches reach out, often
wanting to do things with us orum schools or stuff like that.
So, um, yeah, I think the bestfirst step, depending on um
(34:52):
where folks are in the country,is to go to that alliances
webpage and see if you have analliance nearby you, that's
awesome.
I would reach out to thoseco-chairs.
If you don't, I would reach outto the state coordinators and
see who they might be able toput you in touch with.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Yeah, it's such great work it really is, on so many
different levels.
Anything that we're not as westart to wrap up here, anything
that we're not touching on thatyou'd like to be sure to mention
.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yeah, I'll mention.
So one thing that we're reallyfocused on is what we're calling
the American Hope Campaign, andit's this campaign to bring in
a lot more people to BraverAngels, and also in the process
of bringing people in to expandour reach and our impact to
elected officials, and so we'renot just impacting people at the
(35:42):
grassroots level, but we'realso bringing our work to our
political leaders throughout thecountry.
So I'll say two, I'll mentiontwo different initiatives that
are part of the American Hopecampaign for anyone who might be
interested.
The first is that we're doingit's a citizens commission on
immigration, so we're doingcommon ground workshops on the
issue of immigration throughoutthe country.
(36:03):
We're doing it at both at thegrassroots level, but then we're
also working in DC with some ofthe biggest immigration leaders
to see if we can bring themtogether across the divide.
So if folks are interested indoing something, a part of that,
they can go to our website andthey could potentially even be a
part of one of our commonground workshops.
(36:23):
We'd love to have folks orpeople, people are interested in
hosting one, um, even better,uh, so I'll mention that.
And then the other thing I'llmention, which I'm actually
heading up, is, uh, aninitiative on election day.
We are sending red, blue uhpairs to the polls throughout
the country on election day, um.
So the idea being that, youknow, we want to meet people
where they're at and a lot ofpeople are going to be at the
(36:45):
polling places on election dayand we want to show people you
can disagree on politics and youcan stand together and you can
still get along and you canstill be friends or anything
like that.
So I'll be doing it with my dadin Michigan.
We're from Michigan and so ifanyone wants to be a part of
that, we'd love to have you.
We just we're.
We're hoping to get a lot ofpeople out there doing that on
(37:05):
election day.
So, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
How, how high up in politics have you gone?
I'm just thinking this.
I would love to see BraverAngels moderate our next debate.
No, we would not be great.
Yes, Question there.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
We so we've built already has testified in front
of Congress.
So you know we've gotten tothat level.
But one of the things thatwe're really working on is state
legislatures.
So both in New Hampshire andMinnesota there's like
essentially like a Braver Angelscaucus of folks of reds and
blues, or Democrats andRepublicans In that case,
(37:45):
working together to try toreduce polarization in their
state legislature.
And you know, oftentimesthey'll work with our folks and
do red blue workshops with, youknow, their fellow legislators
and all of that.
So state legislatures are areally great place to kind of
start with us.
So we have a whole initiativecalled Braver Politics that my
colleague, elizabeth Dahl, headsup, and so she does a lot of
(38:07):
candidate debates and stuff likethat throughout the country,
but mostly at the local level.
But we have big dreams, so yeah, 2028.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Yes, well, I mean, it takes time to implement all
this and it sounds like you guyshave made huge strides.
So just such an interestingconversation this morning and a
food for thought for all of us,especially as we move into the
fall and get closer to Novemberand even beyond.
Because you know, I mean, it'spolitics is politics, and that
(38:37):
old adage don't talk aboutreligion and politics.
That's been around a long time,not just in the last 10 years
or so, so it's always kind of alittle hot potato.
Yeah, thank you so much, gabby,for sharing this information
and giving us your stories, andwe'll put all the Braver Angel
(38:57):
information.
Anything you want to throw inthere, just send it over to me
and we'll.
It'll be in the show notes forlisteners to go and dig around
and get more information.
Awesome, well, thank you so muchfor having me, leslie.
This is a lot of fun.
Yeah, thanks so much everybodyfor listening and hopefully
it'll give you some things tothink about and we will talk
soon.
Bye now, if this podcast wasvaluable to you, it would mean
(39:22):
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(39:42):
you taking the time to listen in.
Until next time, be well andtake care.
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