January 29, 2025 • 37 mins
Creative Entrepreneurship and Pricing with guest Casey Brown
In this episode of Measure Twice, Cut Once, I introduce to you my special guest Casey Brown, a pricing expert and author of 'Fearless Pricing' and founder of Boost Pricing. Casey's TED Talk can be viewed here. Casey talks about helping artisans command the prices they deserve and shares insights on pricing, valuing one's work, and building confidence as a creative entrepreneur.
The discussion covers practical steps for setting price floors and ceilings, overcoming the fear of pricing, and improving negotiation skills. This episode aims to empower creatives to confidently monetize their crafts while staying true to their passion.
Interested in learning more about Cleft Care International? You can do so here.
00:00 Welcome to the New Season
00:29 Introducing the Season's Focus
01:29 Meet Casey Brown: Pricing Expert
02:40 Diving into Pricing Strategies
10:25 Understanding the Floor and Ceiling in Pricing
18:01 Building Confidence in Your Value
31:32 Casey's Inspirational Journey
34:31 Conclusion and Farewell
Want to try free motion quilting but don't know where to start? Here's 3 simple steps to get going.
Are you looking to ADVANCE your machine quilting skills?
Machine quilting can be very solitary, especially on a longarm. It's just not that easy to pack up your machine and head to a friend's house for the day, right? But it's important to have that community - that sharing of ideas and tips, encouragement and motivation.
For more information and to sign up, visit our website.
------------------------
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving a rating and review here.
Resources:
ADVANCE, my monthly subscription membership
FREEHAND QUILTING MASTERCLASS, an on-demand comprehensive course
ALL-OVER FEATHER, sign-up for a FREE quilting class
And here's where you can find more of my work:
YouTube - LIVE & UNSCRIPTED episodes
Website - for more information on classes and quilting services
Facebook - current projects and photos
Instagram - current projects and photos
Pinterest - photo galleries and tutorials
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Susan (00:04):
Welcome to a brand new season of Measure Twice, Cut
Once.
If you've been listening to thepodcast for a while, you might
notice something a littledifferent this season.
Over the episodes, I've sharedso many incredible stories from
crafters who've poured theirhearts and souls into their
quilting journeys.
And those conversations havebeen magical.
Hearing about the challenges,the breakthroughs, and the pure
(00:26):
joy of creating somethingbeautiful with our own hands.
But this season, I'm taking aslightly different path.
I want to dive a little deeperinto the behind the scenes of
not just quilting, but buildinga creative business that truly
lights you up.
As someone who's navigated theexciting and sometimes bumpy
world of turning a passion intoa profession, I'm excited to
(00:48):
pull back the curtain and sharemy own experiences.
Some episodes will be just mediving deep into my personal
journey, while others willfeature guests who are also
navigating the world of creativeentrepreneurship.
We'll explore the nitty grittyof building a creative business
with its lessons learned and theunexpected challenges that come
with transforming your crafteach day.
(01:08):
Into a thriving enterprise, anddon't worry, I'm not leaving
storytelling behind.
Instead, I'll be weaving theminto the conversations about
what it takes to grow a businesswhile staying true to your
creative spirit.
So whether you're dreaming ofstarting your own business, or
you just love hearing aboutcreative entrepreneurship, this
season is for you.
(01:30):
Casey Brown is a pricing geek,author of the new book, Fearless
Pricing, and professionalspeaker with a passion to help
leaders, entrepreneurs, andsellers command the prices they
deserve.
She's helped over a thousandcompanies generate over 1
billion in incremental profits.
In her signature keynote, Caseydemystifies customer tactics and
(01:51):
arms audiences with practical,ready to implement steps to
negotiate fearlessly.
Price confidently, and her TEDtalk has been viewed nearly 4
million times.
She's the founder of BoostPricing, where she leads a team
of experts who help companiesdiscover their true pricing
power and sell at higher prices,and watch their profits rise as
(02:12):
a result.
So Casey, welcome into thepodcast.
Casey (02:17):
Thank you so much.
I'm delighted to be here.
Susan (02:19):
This is so great.
Casey and I met in person,,we're in the same pod of a
coaching workshop.
And as soon as I heard youtalking about what you do, of
course, my ears perched right upbecause in the field where I
with artisanal work andcreatives.
pricing is a big issue.
We don't know how to do thatwell.
So of course I wanted to pickyour brain.
(02:40):
But before we get into the nittygritty, just tell me something
that's new and exciting on yourhorizon right now.
Casey (02:46):
great question.
you mentioned in yourintroduction of me the book but
that's just launched, so it'sonly been, in print for a couple
of weeks, and so that's stillreally new and exciting for me
to be, sharing about the book.
And I'm, it's important to mebecause, I have a mission.
around pricing.
For me, pricing is about helpingpeople who are excellent at what
(03:07):
they do and pour themselves intoan extraordinary outcome and a
high quality product and a worldclass customer experience.
Seeing those folks go underrewarded by accepting mediocre
pay for excellent work reallyfires me up.
And, and so I'm on this onewoman mission to, to eradicate
underpricing that's rooted infear, which is the reason most
(03:29):
underpricing happens.
And, I can't be everywhere.
At once.
And so the book I think is my,is part of that mission to
really get the word out.
Not only that you deserve to bepaid for your excellence, but
how to do it and the confidenceto match so that you can
actually command the prices youdeserve.
Susan (03:47):
And that, of course, is key.
For many of us that's a pipedream to get paid what we feel
like we're worth and becauseconveying that is, is the
difficulty.
Is this your first book, Casey?
Casey (03:57):
It is.
Yeah.
It's been about 80 percentwritten in my head for a decade.
And I finally got serious aboutputting some words on paper and
it was a bit of a process ofcourse.
But I learned a lot.
I'm excited about that.
The next book.
So I'm already starting to writethat one in my head, which is
about how to do price increasesin a way that is palatable for
the seller and the buyer.
(04:18):
The buyer is who we spend allthe time worrying about that
they're going to get upset orcomplain or shop somewhere else
if our prices are too high.
But usually the biggestobstacles to price increases are
the seller.
Susan (04:29):
I, gosh, I think you're right.
And it's something that I'm alittle bit passionate about in
my field too.
So long arm quilting is mything.
So we, I'm offering a servicethen that is not a necessity,
right?
So it's so easy to fall into thetrap of like, how can I.
really show what my value is.
So maybe we should probablystart a little earlier.
(04:51):
What I want to ask you is howdoes this apply to artisans, to
people in the type of work thatI do?
But I want to know a little bitmore about what is a pricing
consultant?
Like what are the steps you takewhen you're, when you see
someone who's undervaluingthemselves, what should they do
first and then next?
And how do they work throughthat process?
Casey (05:09):
Great.
Let's start with the firstquestion.
So I, when you said, do you wantto be on this podcast?
I said, yes.
And then I think maybe from theoutside, somebody who doesn't
know you as well.
And I, me as well might think,why would a pricing person be on
a quilting podcast?
But there is so much richness inthis topic for creatives.
and for people who sell theircraft.
(05:30):
And I've got actually, ifanybody I can send some stuff if
you do show notes, but ifanybody who's listening would
like some of these resources,I've got some videos and blogs
I've written specifically forcreatives.
And what I would call peoplewho, so like nobody, my guess is
that nobody listening to thispodcast who is interested in
what you have to share and teachDecided to become hang out their
(05:51):
shingle as a quilter and sellingtheir wares because they love
selling conversations and theylove negotiating with customers
and they love spending time inspreadsheets, figuring out the
numbers that isn't the, thatisn't what drew them to this
work.
And that's where quilters havesomething in common with.
Marketers or photographers orvideo production experts.
(06:12):
These are people that havecraft, craftsmanship and
expertise, right?
They're masters in somethingvery personal that they're very
passionate about.
And so this means that they arenecessarily in kind of a seller
doer role.
But for a lot of people in thatrole, the seller side of the job
(06:33):
is the necessary evil.
It's the part they dread.
It's the part that they hate.
It's the part they fear.
They're most uncomfortable withit.
And they will go to the, theends of the earth to get better
at their craft.
They're not spending as muchtime or effort, or even a
fraction of it, frankly, on howdo we make sure that we're
investing in our ability to getpaid for that.
(06:54):
Excellence that we pour into ourcraft.
The other thing, and there's awhole bunch, I could talk for a
whole hour about mindsetlimiters of creatives.
I'll try to contain myself, butI'll just mention one
Susan (07:04):
one more.
Casey (07:05):
There's this challenge that if you sell a widget,
anything, I don't know, I'msitting here holding a pen,
right?
If you're a pen salesperson, youcan talk about the quality of
the pen and the attributes ofthe pen and the, and if somebody
says no to you, it's okay, theydon't want the pen, right?
But if you're selling your ownartistry, artistry.
When somebody says no to you, itcan feel like they're saying no
to you.
(07:25):
Like it's a personal, personal apersonal rejection.
Susan (07:29):
Because so much of us is in the thing that we're doing.
It's That's right.
That's right.
And can feel like a repudiationof your skill, your talent, your
worth, your value.
And that, that is, maybe thestarting point of the answer to
your second question is what dowe do?
It's it's really important tounwind the stories we tell
ourselves about customerinteractions around pricing.
(07:52):
In other words, My guess iseverybody listening to this, it
has done some version of they'rewalking down the street, they
see a garage sale, there's abeautiful rocking chair there
that they know would be perfectin the den, it's marked at 20,
you think, oh my gosh, steal, Iwould pay 50, but then you say,
would you take 15?
Human beings are wired to holdon to resources and save money.
(08:16):
And so we've learned over ourhistory of a species, how to,
negotiate to hold on to what wealready have to keep as much of
that as possible and then getthis thing we want.
And If we understand that and weremember what it's like to be a
buyer when we sell, then itstarts to allow us to decouple
the feeling we have whensomebody says, Oh my gosh, and I
(08:38):
don't, I don't know what thenumber should be to 200, 2000,
20, 000, 20 million.
It doesn't matter Two,
Casey (08:43):
to 200.
Oh, my gosh, that's crazy.
I wouldn't pay more than ahundred.
And when we hear something likethat, what starts to happen in
our confidence is.
You're not worth that.
And what it really is just acustomer doing what customers
do, humans doing what humans do,which is trying to hang on to
their dollars.
And so separating tactics fromtruth is a really important
(09:05):
first step
Susan (09:06):
That's incredible.
And you're absolutely right.
We are so bound up in what wedo.
And in fact, loving what we doand in many ways, it feels like
creatives are often verygenerous people too.
And we, yeah, we want to do thebest possible thing, and yet we
don't know how to attach a valueto that.
(09:26):
So where do we start then?
If we want to.
figure out, you mentionedspreadsheets, but there's
probably less Robust ways ofvaluing your time.
But like, where do you start insaying and attaching a value to
something that is intangible,like your time or like even your
skill as an artisan?
Like, how do you quantify that?
You don't have a degree to hangon the wall or anything.
Casey (09:50):
So it's I have an unsatisfying answer it's not
terribly
Susan (09:53):
It depends.
Casey (09:54):
I'm sure.
I'm like, yes, I'm a consultant.
So of course, I say it depends.
No, I would love to be able tosay to everyone listening and do
this, take these three steps, dothis quick little math and boom
out pops the perfect price, butit doesn't really work like
that, particularly in the worldof subjectivity.
Susan (10:11):
Which all art and creative expression exists in
this world of subjective value.
So I would encourage, but thatsaid, I don't want to just say,
Oh, too bad.
It depends.
It's too hard to figure out.
So good luck.
What am I doing on this podcast?
If I can't bring some useful,helpful ways to think about it.
So first step is really thinkingabout two different price
points.
One is the ceiling and one is isthe floor.
Casey (10:32):
So if we start at the floor, I would say everyone
should know this number, even ifyou don't intend to ever charge
it.
What is the least
Susan (10:42):
that
Casey (10:42):
you should have somebody say yes to you and you should
say yes to them and still beokay?
Susan (10:47):
By be okay, do you mean feel okay about it, or do you
mean Do you know what your costsare and you're like breaking
even at that point, is that beokay?
Casey (10:58):
Yes, so let me it's both of those things depending on
where your floor is And so atthe very minimum it has to cover
your hard costs and some Modestmeasure of your time.
So if you may say, and I, I'm a,I'm an expert in this and I've
made mistakes before where I'veended up doing work that turned
out to come back to minimumwage.
(11:19):
And I'm like, how did I do thisto myself?
I'm an expert.
But at least say, okay, if I'mgoing to pay myself, quote
unquote, at least X, and
Susan (11:26):
at least McDonald's wages
Casey (11:28):
for, so it can be modest at least X per hour.
And it takes me this many hoursand I have this much of
material.
And I know that I want to.
Have some measure of wear andtear on my machine and equipment
and electricity.
So I'm going to build in amaking this up 3 an hour for
that.
And I'm so you even if you'reguessing, try to get your arms
(11:48):
around your costs at a modestrate for your time and say that
is the absolute floor.
I'm never ever saying yes toselling anything below that.
Susan (11:57):
And that right there is already a breakthrough because
we creatives tend to not eventhink that way when someone asks
us, can you do this?
We just think, Oh, what a worthyproject.
Of course I'll do that.
Casey (12:11):
Yeah.
Susan (12:12):
And we don't even stop to think if I have a floor and if
this is below my floor, if it'sa way down there in the
basement, I just can't say yes.
So I have to find a graciousexit.
We don't even stop for a secondto think that.
Casey (12:25):
Think that through to do that math in our head or to at
least have some and so that'sstep one.
And if that's a breakthrough forfolks listening, start there.
Just start to, to be a littlemore, and I, this doesn't have
to, if there's folks on thephone that are on the listening
to the podcast that are thinkinglike, oh my gosh, I hate math.
This sounds complicated.
It doesn't have to be some, 70line accounting of your time and
(12:47):
costs, just at least anapproximation that, that says,
I'm going to make sure I don'tend upside down on a project.
I say yes to everybody in theworld who sold anything has been
sorry on the other side of ayes.
Sometimes we've been like, whydid I say yes to this?
This is a nightmare for me.
It's a horror.
Like we're trying to prevent theregret of saying yes to the
(13:08):
wrong projects
Susan (13:09):
And the key is to learn from those oopses.
And okay, what am I going to dodifferently next time?
Where has my floor perhapschanged that I need to make an
adjustment?
Okay, so we've got the floor inplace.
Casey (13:20):
that's the floor.
Now, anyone who wants to take itto the next level, maybe there's
folks that have already beendoing something along those
lines and they say, okay, but Idon't know where I could go from
here.
I'll describe the ceiling andthen I'll describe the process
to find the ceiling.
The ceiling is more a measure ofwhat's possible.
The floor is like, Okay.
It's just as it's described.
It's a floor.
It's the minimum, right?
But what people will pay you israrely limited by the floor
(13:44):
Particularly if you are best inclass or better in class at your
skill People will pay you morebecause the value is there and
it's the quality of the productBut also the creativity express
the artistry everything else.
Maybe the very personalsentimental connection they have
to, they've asked you, they'vecommissioned you to do
something, but it's veryimportant to them, like the
value and that, that's where itgets a lot squishier.
(14:05):
It's where it gets trickier, butI'd encourage folks to at least
think about that because theproblem with doing pricing based
in our time is we get better andfaster at things.
So how does it make any sensethat the better and faster we
get, meaning we're producinghigher and higher quality, more
(14:27):
efficiently, why should we makeless for that?
Susan (14:30):
Because it's taking less time.
Casey (14:32):
absolutely.
That's my problem with timebased production.
Approaches to pricing unlesswe're saying, okay, I used to
value my time at 25 an hour andnow I'm valuing my time at 50 an
hour or 100 an hour or 500.
The number itself is lessrelevant than we have to
understand if that's part of ourthought process that we have to
(14:56):
have a way to scale that numberup as we get better.
Even if we do that.
What the customer is willing topay is generally not rooted
fundamentally in our cost.
If you get halfway through aquilting project and realize you
made a mistake have to rip abunch of things out and start
over You don't you know chargethe customer twice Even though
you've got twice as much time init and twice as much material
(15:17):
cost does not drive price onlyvalue
Susan (15:19):
does.
Casey (15:20):
So this idea that what they're willing to pay us is
somewhere Quite north of ourminimum If we're good at
communicating and defending itexplaining that value and
helping them connect with thevalue that they will pay us more
than the floor.
And my guess is everybodylistening to this podcast has
had some of those experienceswhere they were nervous about a
number.
They said it and the customersaid, okay.
(15:42):
Like we've done that where we'veexceeded our own expectations.
So then the question becomes,how do we get there?
So if we understand the conceptof a ceiling is the maximum that
customers will pay us based invalue, not, the minimum we
should accept for our time andcost, but the maximum people
will pay us based in value.
Then the next question is, okay,how do we figure out where that
is?
And this is the mostunsatisfying answer of all.
(16:05):
It's you've got a trial anderror.
No one knows.
I don't know.
You don't know.
Your customers don't know.
Nobody knows exactly what thisstuff is worth because it is so
subjective.
And the only way to figure thatout is to try it.
So if you've been selling acertain product for, 100.
I'm totally making up a numberhere.
(16:25):
And you think that I've reallybeen using floor based
methodology to price that.
And I think I could maybe seewhere that could go.
I don't know.
And you don't know if theceiling's at 200 or 150 or 300.
Or so the best way to start tofigure that out is try it.
And you can do that fast if youwant to map out your full
pricing power quickly, but it'sa risk.
(16:47):
Or you can map that out slower.
You could say, Hey, I'm going togo up 10 at a time until I start
to see that, if I, this idea ofwin rate, which may be a new
concept for some folkslistening.
It's if I have, if I go to a acraft show and I have a hundred
people stop by, I sell a, 40, ofthese products, these little
pillows, whatever.
It's okay, so then your winrate's 40%, you've sold to 40
(17:10):
people.
Out of a hundred people thatstopped by.
If you raise it by$10 and you'restill selling to 40 people out
of a hundred, you haven't foundyour ceiling.
If you raise it and 20 and 130,and once you get to some point
where all of a sudden, boy, alot fewer people are buying
this, that can give you someindication that you're starting
to get closer to the ceilingnow.
I would say if you sell twice asmany, or sorry, half as many
(17:34):
products at twice the price.
Susan (17:37):
It's a win.
We to
Casey (17:38):
money creating half as much work that might still be a
good idea So I don't over reactto maybe a hit to quote unquote
win rate if you're making enoughmoney By selling fewer but
higher priced items that can bea really satisfying way not to
work your fingers to the boneLiterally for nothing.
Susan (17:58):
Yes.
So agree.
So agree.
One of the things that you saythat we're touching on here is
that it's very important to findyour own voice.
Do you mean your own voice inhow you communicate with your
clients, customers, or your ownvoice in your work and what
you're producing?
Casey (18:15):
I think both are really important and particularly when
you're creating something verypersonal expression of your
talent and your creativity themore authentic you are and in
doing so that in a way thataligns with your, your
authenticity as an artist.
I think that always resonates,right?
And it feels
Susan (18:32):
out.
Your voice can be heard if it'sa very distinctive, whatever it
is that you do.
And I don't mean your physicalvoice.
Casey (18:39):
Yeah.
Versus mimicry.
Oh, that artist is making a lotof money because they're doing,
a lot of stuff with, fairies.
And whatever, like eithertopically or style wise we're
trying to chase somebody else'sstyle.
I don't think that ever worksout well.
Or as well as it does to justfind our own voice and style in
our work.
And that's, again, acrossindustries that said mostly when
(19:01):
I mentioned that I'm actuallytalking about the, how we talk
about our work with customers,how we communicate our work.
And so it's finding our ownvoice and, example is I talk
about how to negotiate pricingmore effectively.
And some of the advice I give,I've heard from, different
people over the years, like thatthing you just said.
Would be really hard for me tosay.
(19:23):
I would have a hard time sayingthose words.
And I never, like never shouldyou say something that isn't
you.
You should not say words thatare not you and you should not
channel a style that is not youbecause you think my brother in
law is a really good negotiatorand I always hear him say this.
So I'm going to try to say that,Inauthenticity.
Smells like it's I say dogs andprospects can smell fear.
(19:45):
So if you are Trying to act awayIt gives off weird strange Goofy
vibes and nobody Bye fromsomebody that they feel like is
trying to talk them intosomething or that smarmy or
weird or gross.
So if it feels wrong to you,don't do it.
Susan (20:05):
Don't do it.
Casey (20:06):
That said, I don't think the choices are roll over and
get paid nothing for my work orbe this like smarmy, weird
imitation caricature of myself.
So what I advocate, and this iswhat's behind the advice of
finding your own voices, find away that is authentic to your
personality.
Your values, your style, Yourway of speaking or writing that
(20:31):
still allows you to respectfullyand diplomatically push back
against a customer who's tryingto underpay you.
Susan (20:39):
And fundamentally, we're back at our knowing where your
floor and your ceiling are andhaving pre decided where your
comfortable price point is.
I, for me, anyways, maybe thisis just me, but pre deciding
some of these things super helpsme.
So knowing what my floor ishelps me also pre doing things
like almost role playing, likepracticing the things I'm going
(21:02):
to say, practicing gracefulno's, for example.
I literally do that before thecustomer walks in the door.
I have a list of maybe reasonswhy I wouldn't accept a project
and I can pull out one and it'sgracious and it's not hurtful to
them, but still keeps me out ofthat situation.
And likewise, you can practice,or I do, phrases that describe
(21:25):
my value or what makes meunique.
So is that a helpful way toapproach this kind of mindset.
It is a mindset about my.
Comfortability, my belief in myvalue.
I can't convey it if I don'tbelieve it.
In other words.
Casey (21:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's two really smart thingsthat you're doing that I want to
highlight.
One is a structure.
So you mentioned this, likehaving pre decided, if we have
rules for ourselves, I'm notgoing to do this.
I'm not going to do that.
I'm only going to do this underthis set of circumstances.
That structure can be.
Really helpful when we're in themoment having a conversation
(22:02):
with a customer, I think ofDumbo the, the elephant with the
big ears, he could fly becausehe had the feather, like the
feather gave him confidence.
Now he could always fly.
He didn't need the feather, butthe feather was a support
structure for him to give himthe confidence to, to do this
scary thing.
And I think of that.
Like the idea of a set of rules,a, a set of a sort of a swim
lane where it's okay, I'm notgoing to go here.
(22:23):
I'm not going to go here.
I'm only going to stay inside ofthis lane.
And if I do that, then I knowI'm happiest and my customers
are happiest.
So I'm going to, I'm going tostick inside this rule set and
not use rules as a limiter.
But as a supporter of us gettingwhat we want.
And so you're pre deciding that,to use your words is to me, that
structure, it's giving yourselfthe feather to to jump out and
(22:45):
fly.
Susan (22:46):
It is.
I love that swim lane picturebecause that's how it feels to
me.
Deciding in the moment is,seldom makes the best decisions.
Because I can't think of all thefactors when I'm under pressure.
But if I think of all thefactors aside and establish the
barriers of my swim lane, thatjust sets me up for successful
communication.
(23:06):
100%.
Casey (23:07):
The second thing that you do that is very smart that I
would encourage folks listeningtake a page out of your book is
this idea of preparing specificthings you're going to say, or
specific ways you can respondand role playing.
Humans.
So first of all, pricing is formost people, a relatively fear
driven area of our work.
If you line up a hundred peoplewho sell stuff, I bet you my
(23:29):
house, zero of them would say, Ilove when I get to tell them
what it costs.
It's not the area of confidenceand joy for most people who sell
stuff.
It's the area of relativediscomfort.
That, that means fear is presenta lot when we sell.
And when we're afraid theamygdala is in charge, it's.
Fight or flight.
It's not good at reasonable,nuanced, profitable decision
making, right?
It wants out of the pain and thefear.
(23:51):
And so it will do rat likeirrational things to make it
stop.
Susan (23:56):
Why
Casey (23:56):
that's relevant to this idea of preparing what you're
going to say in role playing.
It's so the idea of a musclememory is known to folks, right?
If you're taking, if you're agolfer, if you take 10, 000
swings that gets into yourmuscle memory, there's the same
kind of concept in our brains,it's called procedural memory.
And so Why muscle memory worksand procedural memory works is
it becomes automatic.
(24:18):
We don't need to think as muchto put it into practice.
And so you don't have to thinkas much.
If you've swung the golf club10, 000 times, you get up and
you swing and you don't have tothink why that's important is if
we're under duress, a.
k.
a.
we're in a stressful, scary,quote unquote, fear is present
for us as we're having acustomer conversation rather
than in that moment.
(24:39):
While we're afraid and ouramygdala is running the show,
try to come up with the rightwords to say our brains are not
good at that.
So what if we had preloaded ourbrains with some role playing
and create some automaticityaround our words such that like
when that customer comes at usand says that's a lot more than
I thought it was going to be.
(25:00):
You do beautiful work, but geez,there's no way I can afford
that.
If you could do it for X, I'llgo with, instead of deciding in
that moment, What am I going tosay if they do that?
What if we had practiced aheadof time?
What if we had asked ourselves,what are the different kinds of
things a customer might say tome?
What am I afraid that they'llsay?
What do I hope they don't say?
And then practicing the answersto those gives us a lot more
(25:23):
ability in the moment.
To stay present and calm andoperate with a little bit of
automaticity because we've putit into our procedural memory.
Susan (25:33):
I love that word automaticity.
I actually recorded a podcastepisode all around it.
It's just, I'm going down arabbit trail here.
Totally.
But what I do is long armquilting, right?
So I hold the handlebars and Iguide this 50 pound machine over
quilts and my YouTube show, Italk while I'm doing it.
I'm chat chat, chatting with theaudience and everyone, so many
(25:55):
people always comment.
How do you quilt and talk at thesame time?
And this is my answer.
But what I'm finding is itfollows through in so many areas
of my life, and you've justdescribed that, that procedural
memory, something that youlearned to do by repeating it,
then you don't have to thinkabout doing anymore.
And it just runs on autopilot,in the background.
(26:17):
So I find that in my practicalwork, but I love seeing that
applied to my thought processestoo.
So cool.
Casey (26:25):
And it can work and look, nobody likes role playing.
I acknowledge that it's awkward,right?
Even if we're doing it byourselves with the mirror of the
dog, but especially if we haveanother human we're trying to
practice with it, it's awkward.
I can appreciate it's not fun.
fun, but I would say it's alittle bit like a eat your
veggies, right?
Like you, you have to if youdon't like this particular food,
(26:48):
it's really good for you, just,just suck it up, eat it.
Susan (26:51):
It's less pain than being sorry you committed to things of
great magnitude.
Casey (26:57):
than you should have
Susan (26:58):
Yeah, it's a smaller pain.
Casey (26:59):
The pain of saying yes to too low of a price lasts a lot
longer than the pain of standingfirm in your value for the two
minutes you're standing in frontof the customer.
Susan (27:09):
Yep, and especially if you are a chronic committer,
over committer to things at alow price.
And I know people who do thatand they feel stuck in this
paralysis, this rut of, but Ican't ever catch up to get
myself out of this place.
How, this is something I thinkwe, we need to address.
Quilters, particularly Artisans,deal with how do we start to
(27:31):
build the confidence inourselves to be able to be, to
have faith in ourselves and tobe able to convey that to
someone else.
I just don't know how to tellpeople where to start with that.
I feel like I've progressed afair bit myself, and for me it
has come from contact with otherpeople and hearing other
confident people in otherfields.
(27:52):
Sure.
What are your thoughts on that?
Casey (27:54):
I think it's a great question.
I'm not sure I have a robustanswer to it.
I think what you've done hasbeen very helpful.
I also, I think that kind ofback to that trial and error
thing, like the first time yousell something ever, you don't
know what people are and, sosuccess, commercial success can
start to build.
Confidence that, hey, I've sold10 of these things.
(28:15):
People really like this stuffand maybe I can sell it for, 10
more now, because I, soconfidence can come from
success.
It can come from the, beingaround other confident people,
seeing how they communicate andtalk about their own value.
I also think it's really worthspending a little time really in
an inquiry about the value thatyou provide.
(28:36):
Another pitfall I see withcreatives and artists.
People that are very, that havea high degree of mastery over
their craft is they tend todiscount that mastery because
it's easy to, it's easy, stuffgets very easy once you're an
expert at it.
It's hard to get there.
Like back when you first startedlong arm quilting, I'm sure you
(28:58):
couldn't stare at a camera andrecord a podcast and also quilt
at the same time.
Like it's hard when you're new.
But once you become a master atsomething, things get very easy
and they get very fast and it'seasy to discount the value of
that because it's so simple forus.
And so we think to ourselves,why would somebody pay me, 1,
000 for that?
It's no big deal, right?
(29:18):
But it's like some customerbrings some intricate.
specific requests that seems tothem like this unsolvable thing.
And you look at it in fiveminutes, the right way
Susan (29:27):
to display.
Casey (29:28):
The only reason you know how to do that in five minutes
is you've done it a thousandtimes
Susan (29:32):
right?
Casey (29:33):
No, don't be tempted to underprice what is valuable to
the customer just because ithappens to be really easy and
fast for you to produce.
And so I think it, I wouldencourage folks listening on
that, have a, have trouble with.
With confidence around theirvalue, lock themselves in a, a
room with no technology and ablank sheet of paper for one
hour and do not let yourself outuntil you've filled both sides
(29:54):
of that piece of paper withsomething that you bring to the
market that nobody else does andthat you're proud of and that
people have, told you over theyears that they're really
impressed by.
Get and it's a little bit of anaffirmation, if you will.
Let me dive into what I know canmake a difference with my work,
and then use that as anaffirmation to build your
confidence.
Susan (30:15):
That is so good.
So good.
It is all too easy for us tojust.
Build one day on the day thatcame before and not ever stop to
really take stock.
How have we grown?
How have we developed?
And just like you said, let'sattach some value to those
things that we've learned andthat we're good at and that we
bring.
Yeah, so good.
Casey (30:35):
I tell a quick story on that topic?
Susan (30:37):
Absolutely.
Love stories.
Casey (30:39):
It's a I don't even know if it's real.
It may be an invented story, butI think it's very instructive.
The story goes that PabloPicasso, once upon a time, was
sketching in a plaza.
A woman recognized him and askedhim if he'd sketch her, and he
says he will.
And he dashes off a quicksketch, and when she sees it,
she's Fascinated.
She can't believe how well hecaptured her spirit and her
essence.
And she asked him if he'll sellher the sketch.
(31:00):
He says he will.
He quotes her price of 5, 000francs, which was a huge sum of
money for that time in history.
And she's shocked.
In fact, she's outraged.
And she says, but sir, it onlytook you five minutes.
And he says, no, madam took me alifetime.
Why I think that's so relevantfor your audience is that
they've spent a lifetimedeveloping skills and creative
(31:21):
expertise that allow them toproduce something really
beautiful in only X hours.
They're not paying you for yourtime.
They're paying you for yourbrilliance.
You're Picasso.
Get paid.
So I originally got involved inthe work in Guatemala because I
am fluent in Spanish and I waslooking for a place and a way to
contribute some skills for anonprofit's benefit.
(31:43):
And so initially I had noparticular connection with cleft
lip and cleft palate repairsurgeries which is the work that
I got involved with.
But a group that was going fromthe United States to Guatemala.
to Guatemala to do this kind ofsurgical work was looking for a
translator, someone that couldhelp translate with local
hospital staff, but also withthe families of the patients
(32:04):
because these are mostly babies.
And I thought that sounds likegreat work.
I think I would really like it.
I think I can make a differencethere and went a handful of
times as a translator for thatpurpose.
And I had a really I just had a,I fell in love with it.
I think I'm a mother myself andI'm, comforting these moms, many
of them quite young, far fromhome, far from family support
(32:27):
who had maybe took a 30 hour busride to get to the Capitol where
their baby is, going away foranesthesia and surgery.
Many of them didn't know whatanesthesia was.
They didn't really understandsurgery.
So I'm explaining the procedureto them and it's understandably
completely terrifying andcompletely isolating.
And so the doctors or the nursescome and whisk their baby away
(32:49):
and they're left there in, intears and, sorrow and fear and
hope and all kinds of thingsmixed together.
And so it felt to me like a bighonor to be able to sit next to
those mothers and fathers and.
And hold their hands and andtell them it's going to be okay.
And, I would come and check, Iwould pop into the OR and get an
update and I would come out andI'd say, everything's going
great with the surgery.
Everything's been, and I so Ifell in love with it as a
(33:09):
translator, but then started tosee other ways that my.
business expertise and processexpertise could be helpful to
the organization.
So I started getting involved involunteer coordination and
surgery scheduling and stufflike that.
And I go usually twice a yearfor one or two weeks.
And last year I founded anorganization in the United
States called Cleft CareInternational.
Susan (33:30):
And,
Casey (33:30):
Because our NGO partner in Guatemala that does the,
organizes all the surgeries andfinds all the kids and make sure
they get to healthy birth weightthrough a milk program and all
kinds of other services.
They don't have they did nothave a mechanism to raise funds
in the United States.
And of course the United Statesis the, biggest philanthropy
market in the world.
Created that organization withthe idea of Fundraising on her,
(33:52):
on behalf of that organizationand then channeling funds to
help them do more of their work.
Susan (33:57):
That's amazing.
It's, just the picture in mymind's eye of these young moms,
as you said, or young parentswho don't speak the language and
what an enormous amount of faiththat must take on their part to
go to these great lengths to getthese babies to the surgical
center.
Not really understanding what itis, in fact, that's going to
happen, but just saying, I knowI need help and here's a little
(34:19):
lifeline that's being handed tome and I'm taking it just
regardless.
That, that's amazing.
I love that you walk themthrough that process.
Casey (34:27):
Thanks.
It's an honor to be part of it.
Well, that was a great chat withCasey Brown.
She is an advocate for fearlesspricing.
And in fact, her brand new bookis that same title, Fearless
Pricing.
If you'd like to get your handson a copy, I've provided a
direct link to the Amazonbookstore in the show notes.
So head over there to obtain acopy of Casey's book.
(34:49):
It could be life changing foryou.
Until next time, friends, mayyour sorrows be patched and your
joys be quilted.
Welcome to a brand new season of Measure Twice, Cut
Once.
If you've been listening to thepodcast for a while, you might
notice something a littledifferent this season.
Over the episodes, I've sharedso many incredible stories from
crafters who've poured theirhearts and souls into their
quilting journeys.
And those conversations havebeen magical.
Hearing about the challenges,the breakthroughs, and the pure
(00:26):
joy of creating somethingbeautiful with our own hands.
But this season, I'm taking aslightly different path.
I want to dive a little deeperinto the behind the scenes of
not just quilting, but buildinga creative business that truly
lights you up.
As someone who's navigated theexciting and sometimes bumpy
world of turning a passion intoa profession, I'm excited to
(00:48):
pull back the curtain and sharemy own experiences.
Some episodes will be just mediving deep into my personal
journey, while others willfeature guests who are also
navigating the world of creativeentrepreneurship.
We'll explore the nitty grittyof building a creative business
with its lessons learned and theunexpected challenges that come
with transforming your crafteach day.
(01:08):
Into a thriving enterprise, anddon't worry, I'm not leaving
storytelling behind.
Instead, I'll be weaving theminto the conversations about
what it takes to grow a businesswhile staying true to your
creative spirit.
So whether you're dreaming ofstarting your own business, or
you just love hearing aboutcreative entrepreneurship, this
season is for you.
(01:30):
Casey Brown is a pricing geek,author of the new book, Fearless
Pricing, and professionalspeaker with a passion to help
leaders, entrepreneurs, andsellers command the prices they
deserve.
She's helped over a thousandcompanies generate over 1
billion in incremental profits.
In her signature keynote, Caseydemystifies customer tactics and
(01:51):
arms audiences with practical,ready to implement steps to
negotiate fearlessly.
Price confidently, and her TEDtalk has been viewed nearly 4
million times.
She's the founder of BoostPricing, where she leads a team
of experts who help companiesdiscover their true pricing
power and sell at higher prices,and watch their profits rise as
(02:12):
a result.
So Casey, welcome into thepodcast.
Casey (02:17):
Thank you so much.
I'm delighted to be here.
Susan (02:19):
This is so great.
Casey and I met in person,,we're in the same pod of a
coaching workshop.
And as soon as I heard youtalking about what you do, of
course, my ears perched right upbecause in the field where I
with artisanal work andcreatives.
pricing is a big issue.
We don't know how to do thatwell.
So of course I wanted to pickyour brain.
(02:40):
But before we get into the nittygritty, just tell me something
that's new and exciting on yourhorizon right now.
Casey (02:46):
great question.
you mentioned in yourintroduction of me the book but
that's just launched, so it'sonly been, in print for a couple
of weeks, and so that's stillreally new and exciting for me
to be, sharing about the book.
And I'm, it's important to mebecause, I have a mission.
around pricing.
For me, pricing is about helpingpeople who are excellent at what
(03:07):
they do and pour themselves intoan extraordinary outcome and a
high quality product and a worldclass customer experience.
Seeing those folks go underrewarded by accepting mediocre
pay for excellent work reallyfires me up.
And, and so I'm on this onewoman mission to, to eradicate
underpricing that's rooted infear, which is the reason most
(03:29):
underpricing happens.
And, I can't be everywhere.
At once.
And so the book I think is my,is part of that mission to
really get the word out.
Not only that you deserve to bepaid for your excellence, but
how to do it and the confidenceto match so that you can
actually command the prices youdeserve.
Susan (03:47):
And that, of course, is key.
For many of us that's a pipedream to get paid what we feel
like we're worth and becauseconveying that is, is the
difficulty.
Is this your first book, Casey?
Casey (03:57):
It is.
Yeah.
It's been about 80 percentwritten in my head for a decade.
And I finally got serious aboutputting some words on paper and
it was a bit of a process ofcourse.
But I learned a lot.
I'm excited about that.
The next book.
So I'm already starting to writethat one in my head, which is
about how to do price increasesin a way that is palatable for
the seller and the buyer.
(04:18):
The buyer is who we spend allthe time worrying about that
they're going to get upset orcomplain or shop somewhere else
if our prices are too high.
But usually the biggestobstacles to price increases are
the seller.
Susan (04:29):
I, gosh, I think you're right.
And it's something that I'm alittle bit passionate about in
my field too.
So long arm quilting is mything.
So we, I'm offering a servicethen that is not a necessity,
right?
So it's so easy to fall into thetrap of like, how can I.
really show what my value is.
So maybe we should probablystart a little earlier.
(04:51):
What I want to ask you is howdoes this apply to artisans, to
people in the type of work thatI do?
But I want to know a little bitmore about what is a pricing
consultant?
Like what are the steps you takewhen you're, when you see
someone who's undervaluingthemselves, what should they do
first and then next?
And how do they work throughthat process?
Casey (05:09):
Great.
Let's start with the firstquestion.
So I, when you said, do you wantto be on this podcast?
I said, yes.
And then I think maybe from theoutside, somebody who doesn't
know you as well.
And I, me as well might think,why would a pricing person be on
a quilting podcast?
But there is so much richness inthis topic for creatives.
and for people who sell theircraft.
(05:30):
And I've got actually, ifanybody I can send some stuff if
you do show notes, but ifanybody who's listening would
like some of these resources,I've got some videos and blogs
I've written specifically forcreatives.
And what I would call peoplewho, so like nobody, my guess is
that nobody listening to thispodcast who is interested in
what you have to share and teachDecided to become hang out their
(05:51):
shingle as a quilter and sellingtheir wares because they love
selling conversations and theylove negotiating with customers
and they love spending time inspreadsheets, figuring out the
numbers that isn't the, thatisn't what drew them to this
work.
And that's where quilters havesomething in common with.
Marketers or photographers orvideo production experts.
(06:12):
These are people that havecraft, craftsmanship and
expertise, right?
They're masters in somethingvery personal that they're very
passionate about.
And so this means that they arenecessarily in kind of a seller
doer role.
But for a lot of people in thatrole, the seller side of the job
(06:33):
is the necessary evil.
It's the part they dread.
It's the part that they hate.
It's the part they fear.
They're most uncomfortable withit.
And they will go to the, theends of the earth to get better
at their craft.
They're not spending as muchtime or effort, or even a
fraction of it, frankly, on howdo we make sure that we're
investing in our ability to getpaid for that.
(06:54):
Excellence that we pour into ourcraft.
The other thing, and there's awhole bunch, I could talk for a
whole hour about mindsetlimiters of creatives.
I'll try to contain myself, butI'll just mention one
Susan (07:04):
one more.
Casey (07:05):
There's this challenge that if you sell a widget,
anything, I don't know, I'msitting here holding a pen,
right?
If you're a pen salesperson, youcan talk about the quality of
the pen and the attributes ofthe pen and the, and if somebody
says no to you, it's okay, theydon't want the pen, right?
But if you're selling your ownartistry, artistry.
When somebody says no to you, itcan feel like they're saying no
to you.
(07:25):
Like it's a personal, personal apersonal rejection.
Susan (07:29):
Because so much of us is in the thing that we're doing.
It's That's right.
That's right.
And can feel like a repudiationof your skill, your talent, your
worth, your value.
And that, that is, maybe thestarting point of the answer to
your second question is what dowe do?
It's it's really important tounwind the stories we tell
ourselves about customerinteractions around pricing.
(07:52):
In other words, My guess iseverybody listening to this, it
has done some version of they'rewalking down the street, they
see a garage sale, there's abeautiful rocking chair there
that they know would be perfectin the den, it's marked at 20,
you think, oh my gosh, steal, Iwould pay 50, but then you say,
would you take 15?
Human beings are wired to holdon to resources and save money.
(08:16):
And so we've learned over ourhistory of a species, how to,
negotiate to hold on to what wealready have to keep as much of
that as possible and then getthis thing we want.
And If we understand that and weremember what it's like to be a
buyer when we sell, then itstarts to allow us to decouple
the feeling we have whensomebody says, Oh my gosh, and I
(08:38):
don't, I don't know what thenumber should be to 200, 2000,
20, 000, 20 million.
It doesn't matter Two,
Casey (08:43):
to 200.
Oh, my gosh, that's crazy.
I wouldn't pay more than ahundred.
And when we hear something likethat, what starts to happen in
our confidence is.
You're not worth that.
And what it really is just acustomer doing what customers
do, humans doing what humans do,which is trying to hang on to
their dollars.
And so separating tactics fromtruth is a really important
(09:05):
first step
Susan (09:06):
That's incredible.
And you're absolutely right.
We are so bound up in what wedo.
And in fact, loving what we doand in many ways, it feels like
creatives are often verygenerous people too.
And we, yeah, we want to do thebest possible thing, and yet we
don't know how to attach a valueto that.
(09:26):
So where do we start then?
If we want to.
figure out, you mentionedspreadsheets, but there's
probably less Robust ways ofvaluing your time.
But like, where do you start insaying and attaching a value to
something that is intangible,like your time or like even your
skill as an artisan?
Like, how do you quantify that?
You don't have a degree to hangon the wall or anything.
Casey (09:50):
So it's I have an unsatisfying answer it's not
terribly
Susan (09:53):
It depends.
Casey (09:54):
I'm sure.
I'm like, yes, I'm a consultant.
So of course, I say it depends.
No, I would love to be able tosay to everyone listening and do
this, take these three steps, dothis quick little math and boom
out pops the perfect price, butit doesn't really work like
that, particularly in the worldof subjectivity.
Susan (10:11):
Which all art and creative expression exists in
this world of subjective value.
So I would encourage, but thatsaid, I don't want to just say,
Oh, too bad.
It depends.
It's too hard to figure out.
So good luck.
What am I doing on this podcast?
If I can't bring some useful,helpful ways to think about it.
So first step is really thinkingabout two different price
points.
One is the ceiling and one is isthe floor.
Casey (10:32):
So if we start at the floor, I would say everyone
should know this number, even ifyou don't intend to ever charge
it.
What is the least
Susan (10:42):
that
Casey (10:42):
you should have somebody say yes to you and you should
say yes to them and still beokay?
Susan (10:47):
By be okay, do you mean feel okay about it, or do you
mean Do you know what your costsare and you're like breaking
even at that point, is that beokay?
Casey (10:58):
Yes, so let me it's both of those things depending on
where your floor is And so atthe very minimum it has to cover
your hard costs and some Modestmeasure of your time.
So if you may say, and I, I'm a,I'm an expert in this and I've
made mistakes before where I'veended up doing work that turned
out to come back to minimumwage.
(11:19):
And I'm like, how did I do thisto myself?
I'm an expert.
But at least say, okay, if I'mgoing to pay myself, quote
unquote, at least X, and
Susan (11:26):
at least McDonald's wages
Casey (11:28):
for, so it can be modest at least X per hour.
And it takes me this many hoursand I have this much of
material.
And I know that I want to.
Have some measure of wear andtear on my machine and equipment
and electricity.
So I'm going to build in amaking this up 3 an hour for
that.
And I'm so you even if you'reguessing, try to get your arms
(11:48):
around your costs at a modestrate for your time and say that
is the absolute floor.
I'm never ever saying yes toselling anything below that.
Susan (11:57):
And that right there is already a breakthrough because
we creatives tend to not eventhink that way when someone asks
us, can you do this?
We just think, Oh, what a worthyproject.
Of course I'll do that.
Casey (12:11):
Yeah.
Susan (12:12):
And we don't even stop to think if I have a floor and if
this is below my floor, if it'sa way down there in the
basement, I just can't say yes.
So I have to find a graciousexit.
We don't even stop for a secondto think that.
Casey (12:25):
Think that through to do that math in our head or to at
least have some and so that'sstep one.
And if that's a breakthrough forfolks listening, start there.
Just start to, to be a littlemore, and I, this doesn't have
to, if there's folks on thephone that are on the listening
to the podcast that are thinkinglike, oh my gosh, I hate math.
This sounds complicated.
It doesn't have to be some, 70line accounting of your time and
(12:47):
costs, just at least anapproximation that, that says,
I'm going to make sure I don'tend upside down on a project.
I say yes to everybody in theworld who sold anything has been
sorry on the other side of ayes.
Sometimes we've been like, whydid I say yes to this?
This is a nightmare for me.
It's a horror.
Like we're trying to prevent theregret of saying yes to the
(13:08):
wrong projects
Susan (13:09):
And the key is to learn from those oopses.
And okay, what am I going to dodifferently next time?
Where has my floor perhapschanged that I need to make an
adjustment?
Okay, so we've got the floor inplace.
Casey (13:20):
that's the floor.
Now, anyone who wants to take itto the next level, maybe there's
folks that have already beendoing something along those
lines and they say, okay, but Idon't know where I could go from
here.
I'll describe the ceiling andthen I'll describe the process
to find the ceiling.
The ceiling is more a measure ofwhat's possible.
The floor is like, Okay.
It's just as it's described.
It's a floor.
It's the minimum, right?
But what people will pay you israrely limited by the floor
(13:44):
Particularly if you are best inclass or better in class at your
skill People will pay you morebecause the value is there and
it's the quality of the productBut also the creativity express
the artistry everything else.
Maybe the very personalsentimental connection they have
to, they've asked you, they'vecommissioned you to do
something, but it's veryimportant to them, like the
value and that, that's where itgets a lot squishier.
(14:05):
It's where it gets trickier, butI'd encourage folks to at least
think about that because theproblem with doing pricing based
in our time is we get better andfaster at things.
So how does it make any sensethat the better and faster we
get, meaning we're producinghigher and higher quality, more
(14:27):
efficiently, why should we makeless for that?
Susan (14:30):
Because it's taking less time.
Casey (14:32):
absolutely.
That's my problem with timebased production.
Approaches to pricing unlesswe're saying, okay, I used to
value my time at 25 an hour andnow I'm valuing my time at 50 an
hour or 100 an hour or 500.
The number itself is lessrelevant than we have to
understand if that's part of ourthought process that we have to
(14:56):
have a way to scale that numberup as we get better.
Even if we do that.
What the customer is willing topay is generally not rooted
fundamentally in our cost.
If you get halfway through aquilting project and realize you
made a mistake have to rip abunch of things out and start
over You don't you know chargethe customer twice Even though
you've got twice as much time init and twice as much material
(15:17):
cost does not drive price onlyvalue
Susan (15:19):
does.
Casey (15:20):
So this idea that what they're willing to pay us is
somewhere Quite north of ourminimum If we're good at
communicating and defending itexplaining that value and
helping them connect with thevalue that they will pay us more
than the floor.
And my guess is everybodylistening to this podcast has
had some of those experienceswhere they were nervous about a
number.
They said it and the customersaid, okay.
(15:42):
Like we've done that where we'veexceeded our own expectations.
So then the question becomes,how do we get there?
So if we understand the conceptof a ceiling is the maximum that
customers will pay us based invalue, not, the minimum we
should accept for our time andcost, but the maximum people
will pay us based in value.
Then the next question is, okay,how do we figure out where that
is?
And this is the mostunsatisfying answer of all.
(16:05):
It's you've got a trial anderror.
No one knows.
I don't know.
You don't know.
Your customers don't know.
Nobody knows exactly what thisstuff is worth because it is so
subjective.
And the only way to figure thatout is to try it.
So if you've been selling acertain product for, 100.
I'm totally making up a numberhere.
(16:25):
And you think that I've reallybeen using floor based
methodology to price that.
And I think I could maybe seewhere that could go.
I don't know.
And you don't know if theceiling's at 200 or 150 or 300.
Or so the best way to start tofigure that out is try it.
And you can do that fast if youwant to map out your full
pricing power quickly, but it'sa risk.
(16:47):
Or you can map that out slower.
You could say, Hey, I'm going togo up 10 at a time until I start
to see that, if I, this idea ofwin rate, which may be a new
concept for some folkslistening.
It's if I have, if I go to a acraft show and I have a hundred
people stop by, I sell a, 40, ofthese products, these little
pillows, whatever.
It's okay, so then your winrate's 40%, you've sold to 40
(17:10):
people.
Out of a hundred people thatstopped by.
If you raise it by$10 and you'restill selling to 40 people out
of a hundred, you haven't foundyour ceiling.
If you raise it and 20 and 130,and once you get to some point
where all of a sudden, boy, alot fewer people are buying
this, that can give you someindication that you're starting
to get closer to the ceilingnow.
I would say if you sell twice asmany, or sorry, half as many
(17:34):
products at twice the price.
Susan (17:37):
It's a win.
We to
Casey (17:38):
money creating half as much work that might still be a
good idea So I don't over reactto maybe a hit to quote unquote
win rate if you're making enoughmoney By selling fewer but
higher priced items that can bea really satisfying way not to
work your fingers to the boneLiterally for nothing.
Susan (17:58):
Yes.
So agree.
So agree.
One of the things that you saythat we're touching on here is
that it's very important to findyour own voice.
Do you mean your own voice inhow you communicate with your
clients, customers, or your ownvoice in your work and what
you're producing?
Casey (18:15):
I think both are really important and particularly when
you're creating something verypersonal expression of your
talent and your creativity themore authentic you are and in
doing so that in a way thataligns with your, your
authenticity as an artist.
I think that always resonates,right?
And it feels
Susan (18:32):
out.
Your voice can be heard if it'sa very distinctive, whatever it
is that you do.
And I don't mean your physicalvoice.
Casey (18:39):
Yeah.
Versus mimicry.
Oh, that artist is making a lotof money because they're doing,
a lot of stuff with, fairies.
And whatever, like eithertopically or style wise we're
trying to chase somebody else'sstyle.
I don't think that ever worksout well.
Or as well as it does to justfind our own voice and style in
our work.
And that's, again, acrossindustries that said mostly when
(19:01):
I mentioned that I'm actuallytalking about the, how we talk
about our work with customers,how we communicate our work.
And so it's finding our ownvoice and, example is I talk
about how to negotiate pricingmore effectively.
And some of the advice I give,I've heard from, different
people over the years, like thatthing you just said.
Would be really hard for me tosay.
(19:23):
I would have a hard time sayingthose words.
And I never, like never shouldyou say something that isn't
you.
You should not say words thatare not you and you should not
channel a style that is not youbecause you think my brother in
law is a really good negotiatorand I always hear him say this.
So I'm going to try to say that,Inauthenticity.
Smells like it's I say dogs andprospects can smell fear.
(19:45):
So if you are Trying to act awayIt gives off weird strange Goofy
vibes and nobody Bye fromsomebody that they feel like is
trying to talk them intosomething or that smarmy or
weird or gross.
So if it feels wrong to you,don't do it.
Susan (20:05):
Don't do it.
Casey (20:06):
That said, I don't think the choices are roll over and
get paid nothing for my work orbe this like smarmy, weird
imitation caricature of myself.
So what I advocate, and this iswhat's behind the advice of
finding your own voices, find away that is authentic to your
personality.
Your values, your style, Yourway of speaking or writing that
(20:31):
still allows you to respectfullyand diplomatically push back
against a customer who's tryingto underpay you.
Susan (20:39):
And fundamentally, we're back at our knowing where your
floor and your ceiling are andhaving pre decided where your
comfortable price point is.
I, for me, anyways, maybe thisis just me, but pre deciding
some of these things super helpsme.
So knowing what my floor ishelps me also pre doing things
like almost role playing, likepracticing the things I'm going
(21:02):
to say, practicing gracefulno's, for example.
I literally do that before thecustomer walks in the door.
I have a list of maybe reasonswhy I wouldn't accept a project
and I can pull out one and it'sgracious and it's not hurtful to
them, but still keeps me out ofthat situation.
And likewise, you can practice,or I do, phrases that describe
(21:25):
my value or what makes meunique.
So is that a helpful way toapproach this kind of mindset.
It is a mindset about my.
Comfortability, my belief in myvalue.
I can't convey it if I don'tbelieve it.
In other words.
Casey (21:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's two really smart thingsthat you're doing that I want to
highlight.
One is a structure.
So you mentioned this, likehaving pre decided, if we have
rules for ourselves, I'm notgoing to do this.
I'm not going to do that.
I'm only going to do this underthis set of circumstances.
That structure can be.
Really helpful when we're in themoment having a conversation
(22:02):
with a customer, I think ofDumbo the, the elephant with the
big ears, he could fly becausehe had the feather, like the
feather gave him confidence.
Now he could always fly.
He didn't need the feather, butthe feather was a support
structure for him to give himthe confidence to, to do this
scary thing.
And I think of that.
Like the idea of a set of rules,a, a set of a sort of a swim
lane where it's okay, I'm notgoing to go here.
(22:23):
I'm not going to go here.
I'm only going to stay inside ofthis lane.
And if I do that, then I knowI'm happiest and my customers
are happiest.
So I'm going to, I'm going tostick inside this rule set and
not use rules as a limiter.
But as a supporter of us gettingwhat we want.
And so you're pre deciding that,to use your words is to me, that
structure, it's giving yourselfthe feather to to jump out and
(22:45):
fly.
Susan (22:46):
It is.
I love that swim lane picturebecause that's how it feels to
me.
Deciding in the moment is,seldom makes the best decisions.
Because I can't think of all thefactors when I'm under pressure.
But if I think of all thefactors aside and establish the
barriers of my swim lane, thatjust sets me up for successful
communication.
(23:06):
100%.
Casey (23:07):
The second thing that you do that is very smart that I
would encourage folks listeningtake a page out of your book is
this idea of preparing specificthings you're going to say, or
specific ways you can respondand role playing.
Humans.
So first of all, pricing is formost people, a relatively fear
driven area of our work.
If you line up a hundred peoplewho sell stuff, I bet you my
(23:29):
house, zero of them would say, Ilove when I get to tell them
what it costs.
It's not the area of confidenceand joy for most people who sell
stuff.
It's the area of relativediscomfort.
That, that means fear is presenta lot when we sell.
And when we're afraid theamygdala is in charge, it's.
Fight or flight.
It's not good at reasonable,nuanced, profitable decision
making, right?
It wants out of the pain and thefear.
(23:51):
And so it will do rat likeirrational things to make it
stop.
Susan (23:56):
Why
Casey (23:56):
that's relevant to this idea of preparing what you're
going to say in role playing.
It's so the idea of a musclememory is known to folks, right?
If you're taking, if you're agolfer, if you take 10, 000
swings that gets into yourmuscle memory, there's the same
kind of concept in our brains,it's called procedural memory.
And so Why muscle memory worksand procedural memory works is
it becomes automatic.
(24:18):
We don't need to think as muchto put it into practice.
And so you don't have to thinkas much.
If you've swung the golf club10, 000 times, you get up and
you swing and you don't have tothink why that's important is if
we're under duress, a.
k.
a.
we're in a stressful, scary,quote unquote, fear is present
for us as we're having acustomer conversation rather
than in that moment.
(24:39):
While we're afraid and ouramygdala is running the show,
try to come up with the rightwords to say our brains are not
good at that.
So what if we had preloaded ourbrains with some role playing
and create some automaticityaround our words such that like
when that customer comes at usand says that's a lot more than
I thought it was going to be.
(25:00):
You do beautiful work, but geez,there's no way I can afford
that.
If you could do it for X, I'llgo with, instead of deciding in
that moment, What am I going tosay if they do that?
What if we had practiced aheadof time?
What if we had asked ourselves,what are the different kinds of
things a customer might say tome?
What am I afraid that they'llsay?
What do I hope they don't say?
And then practicing the answersto those gives us a lot more
(25:23):
ability in the moment.
To stay present and calm andoperate with a little bit of
automaticity because we've putit into our procedural memory.
Susan (25:33):
I love that word automaticity.
I actually recorded a podcastepisode all around it.
It's just, I'm going down arabbit trail here.
Totally.
But what I do is long armquilting, right?
So I hold the handlebars and Iguide this 50 pound machine over
quilts and my YouTube show, Italk while I'm doing it.
I'm chat chat, chatting with theaudience and everyone, so many
(25:55):
people always comment.
How do you quilt and talk at thesame time?
And this is my answer.
But what I'm finding is itfollows through in so many areas
of my life, and you've justdescribed that, that procedural
memory, something that youlearned to do by repeating it,
then you don't have to thinkabout doing anymore.
And it just runs on autopilot,in the background.
(26:17):
So I find that in my practicalwork, but I love seeing that
applied to my thought processestoo.
So cool.
Casey (26:25):
And it can work and look, nobody likes role playing.
I acknowledge that it's awkward,right?
Even if we're doing it byourselves with the mirror of the
dog, but especially if we haveanother human we're trying to
practice with it, it's awkward.
I can appreciate it's not fun.
fun, but I would say it's alittle bit like a eat your
veggies, right?
Like you, you have to if youdon't like this particular food,
(26:48):
it's really good for you, just,just suck it up, eat it.
Susan (26:51):
It's less pain than being sorry you committed to things of
great magnitude.
Casey (26:57):
than you should have
Susan (26:58):
Yeah, it's a smaller pain.
Casey (26:59):
The pain of saying yes to too low of a price lasts a lot
longer than the pain of standingfirm in your value for the two
minutes you're standing in frontof the customer.
Susan (27:09):
Yep, and especially if you are a chronic committer,
over committer to things at alow price.
And I know people who do thatand they feel stuck in this
paralysis, this rut of, but Ican't ever catch up to get
myself out of this place.
How, this is something I thinkwe, we need to address.
Quilters, particularly Artisans,deal with how do we start to
(27:31):
build the confidence inourselves to be able to be, to
have faith in ourselves and tobe able to convey that to
someone else.
I just don't know how to tellpeople where to start with that.
I feel like I've progressed afair bit myself, and for me it
has come from contact with otherpeople and hearing other
confident people in otherfields.
(27:52):
Sure.
What are your thoughts on that?
Casey (27:54):
I think it's a great question.
I'm not sure I have a robustanswer to it.
I think what you've done hasbeen very helpful.
I also, I think that kind ofback to that trial and error
thing, like the first time yousell something ever, you don't
know what people are and, sosuccess, commercial success can
start to build.
Confidence that, hey, I've sold10 of these things.
(28:15):
People really like this stuffand maybe I can sell it for, 10
more now, because I, soconfidence can come from
success.
It can come from the, beingaround other confident people,
seeing how they communicate andtalk about their own value.
I also think it's really worthspending a little time really in
an inquiry about the value thatyou provide.
(28:36):
Another pitfall I see withcreatives and artists.
People that are very, that havea high degree of mastery over
their craft is they tend todiscount that mastery because
it's easy to, it's easy, stuffgets very easy once you're an
expert at it.
It's hard to get there.
Like back when you first startedlong arm quilting, I'm sure you
(28:58):
couldn't stare at a camera andrecord a podcast and also quilt
at the same time.
Like it's hard when you're new.
But once you become a master atsomething, things get very easy
and they get very fast and it'seasy to discount the value of
that because it's so simple forus.
And so we think to ourselves,why would somebody pay me, 1,
000 for that?
It's no big deal, right?
(29:18):
But it's like some customerbrings some intricate.
specific requests that seems tothem like this unsolvable thing.
And you look at it in fiveminutes, the right way
Susan (29:27):
to display.
Casey (29:28):
The only reason you know how to do that in five minutes
is you've done it a thousandtimes
Susan (29:32):
right?
Casey (29:33):
No, don't be tempted to underprice what is valuable to
the customer just because ithappens to be really easy and
fast for you to produce.
And so I think it, I wouldencourage folks listening on
that, have a, have trouble with.
With confidence around theirvalue, lock themselves in a, a
room with no technology and ablank sheet of paper for one
hour and do not let yourself outuntil you've filled both sides
(29:54):
of that piece of paper withsomething that you bring to the
market that nobody else does andthat you're proud of and that
people have, told you over theyears that they're really
impressed by.
Get and it's a little bit of anaffirmation, if you will.
Let me dive into what I know canmake a difference with my work,
and then use that as anaffirmation to build your
confidence.
Susan (30:15):
That is so good.
So good.
It is all too easy for us tojust.
Build one day on the day thatcame before and not ever stop to
really take stock.
How have we grown?
How have we developed?
And just like you said, let'sattach some value to those
things that we've learned andthat we're good at and that we
bring.
Yeah, so good.
Casey (30:35):
I tell a quick story on that topic?
Susan (30:37):
Absolutely.
Love stories.
Casey (30:39):
It's a I don't even know if it's real.
It may be an invented story, butI think it's very instructive.
The story goes that PabloPicasso, once upon a time, was
sketching in a plaza.
A woman recognized him and askedhim if he'd sketch her, and he
says he will.
And he dashes off a quicksketch, and when she sees it,
she's Fascinated.
She can't believe how well hecaptured her spirit and her
essence.
And she asked him if he'll sellher the sketch.
(31:00):
He says he will.
He quotes her price of 5, 000francs, which was a huge sum of
money for that time in history.
And she's shocked.
In fact, she's outraged.
And she says, but sir, it onlytook you five minutes.
And he says, no, madam took me alifetime.
Why I think that's so relevantfor your audience is that
they've spent a lifetimedeveloping skills and creative
(31:21):
expertise that allow them toproduce something really
beautiful in only X hours.
They're not paying you for yourtime.
They're paying you for yourbrilliance.
You're Picasso.
Get paid.
So I originally got involved inthe work in Guatemala because I
am fluent in Spanish and I waslooking for a place and a way to
contribute some skills for anonprofit's benefit.
(31:43):
And so initially I had noparticular connection with cleft
lip and cleft palate repairsurgeries which is the work that
I got involved with.
But a group that was going fromthe United States to Guatemala.
to Guatemala to do this kind ofsurgical work was looking for a
translator, someone that couldhelp translate with local
hospital staff, but also withthe families of the patients
(32:04):
because these are mostly babies.
And I thought that sounds likegreat work.
I think I would really like it.
I think I can make a differencethere and went a handful of
times as a translator for thatpurpose.
And I had a really I just had a,I fell in love with it.
I think I'm a mother myself andI'm, comforting these moms, many
of them quite young, far fromhome, far from family support
(32:27):
who had maybe took a 30 hour busride to get to the Capitol where
their baby is, going away foranesthesia and surgery.
Many of them didn't know whatanesthesia was.
They didn't really understandsurgery.
So I'm explaining the procedureto them and it's understandably
completely terrifying andcompletely isolating.
And so the doctors or the nursescome and whisk their baby away
(32:49):
and they're left there in, intears and, sorrow and fear and
hope and all kinds of thingsmixed together.
And so it felt to me like a bighonor to be able to sit next to
those mothers and fathers and.
And hold their hands and andtell them it's going to be okay.
And, I would come and check, Iwould pop into the OR and get an
update and I would come out andI'd say, everything's going
great with the surgery.
Everything's been, and I so Ifell in love with it as a
(33:09):
translator, but then started tosee other ways that my.
business expertise and processexpertise could be helpful to
the organization.
So I started getting involved involunteer coordination and
surgery scheduling and stufflike that.
And I go usually twice a yearfor one or two weeks.
And last year I founded anorganization in the United
States called Cleft CareInternational.
Susan (33:30):
And,
Casey (33:30):
Because our NGO partner in Guatemala that does the,
organizes all the surgeries andfinds all the kids and make sure
they get to healthy birth weightthrough a milk program and all
kinds of other services.
They don't have they did nothave a mechanism to raise funds
in the United States.
And of course the United Statesis the, biggest philanthropy
market in the world.
Created that organization withthe idea of Fundraising on her,
(33:52):
on behalf of that organizationand then channeling funds to
help them do more of their work.
Susan (33:57):
That's amazing.
It's, just the picture in mymind's eye of these young moms,
as you said, or young parentswho don't speak the language and
what an enormous amount of faiththat must take on their part to
go to these great lengths to getthese babies to the surgical
center.
Not really understanding what itis, in fact, that's going to
happen, but just saying, I knowI need help and here's a little
(34:19):
lifeline that's being handed tome and I'm taking it just
regardless.
That, that's amazing.
I love that you walk themthrough that process.
Casey (34:27):
Thanks.
It's an honor to be part of it.
Well, that was a great chat withCasey Brown.
She is an advocate for fearlesspricing.
And in fact, her brand new bookis that same title, Fearless
Pricing.
If you'd like to get your handson a copy, I've provided a
direct link to the Amazonbookstore in the show notes.
So head over there to obtain acopy of Casey's book.
(34:49):
It could be life changing foryou.
Until next time, friends, mayyour sorrows be patched and your
joys be quilted.
Popular Podcasts
Boysober
Have you ever wondered what life might be like if you stopped worrying about being wanted, and focused on understanding what you actually want? That was the question Hope Woodard asked herself after a string of situationships inspired her to take a break from sex and dating. She went "boysober," a personal concept that sparked a global movement among women looking to prioritize themselves over men. Now, Hope is looking to expand the ways we explore our relationship to relationships. Taking a bold, unfiltered look into modern love, romance, and self-discovery, Boysober will dive into messy stories about dating, sex, love, friendship, and breaking generational patterns—all with humor, vulnerability, and a fresh perspective.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com