Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello and welcome to
another episode of the Med
School Minutes podcast, where wediscuss what it takes to attend
and successfully complete amedical program.
This show is brought to you bySt James School of Medicine.
Here is your host, kaushik Gua.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Welcome to another
episode of Med School Minutes,
where we talk about everythingmed school related, with the
focus on international students,specifically students from the
Caribbean.
As we are in March, thisepisode will be dedicated to
talking about the residencymatch process and SOAP.
Whether you are a medicalstudent or just curious about
the journey to becoming apracticing physician in the
(00:41):
United States, this video willbreak down the essential steps.
Residency is the process inwhich medical students
eventually get a job as apracticing physician.
The residency match process isa crucial step for medical
students completing theireducation and transitioning into
residency training, orbasically the practical training
(01:03):
that doctors need to get fullylicensed.
It's a system designed to pairgraduating medical students with
residency programs across thecountry.
Here is how it works.
First, the medical studentsapply to residency programs
through the Electronic ResidencyApplication Service, or ERAS.
This process is the same forstudents who finished in the US
(01:26):
medical schools and for thosewho are considered international
medical graduates, whichCaribbean students are.
Irrespective of theirnationality, all students will
submit their applications, whichinclude their medical school
transcripts, letters ofrecommendations, personal
statements and various otherrequired documents, which might
(01:49):
vary from the applyinginstitution, etc.
Once applications are submitted, residency programs review them
and extend interviewinvitations to select candidates
.
These interviews are a crucialopportunity for both parties to
assess the fit and compatibility.
After the interview processconcludes, both applicants and
(02:12):
residency programs rank eachother in order of preference.
Medical students submit theirrank list through the National
Residency Matching Program orthe NRMP, while programs submit
their rank list separately.
Finally, on match day, medicalstudents across the country
eagerly await their fate.
(02:32):
This is when the NRMP algorithmmatches applicants with
residency programs based ontheir rank list.
This is typically the secondweek of March, but it varies
slightly depending on the date,so let's talk about some numbers
(02:53):
.
In 2023, nrmp reported a 62.4%match rate among IMG applicants
who submitted a certified rankorder list according to the PGY
main residency match 67% for USIMGs and 59% for non-US IMGs.
(03:14):
The match rate forinternational medical students
increased by 10-12% during thepast seven years, but if you
compare this to the 94% matchrate for US medical school
graduates, the current matchrate for IMGs still has a lot of
room for improvement.
This year, in 2024, a total of9,045 IMGs obtained first-year
(03:36):
residency positions inaccredited US GME programs, an
increase of 7.8% from last yearand comprising more than
one-quarter of all matchedapplicants Of the IMGs matched
3,181 US citizens decreased of175 compared to last year.
The number of matched non-UScitizen IMGs is 5,864, up 832
(04:01):
compared to 2023.
Despite the record highapplicant participation, the
match rates for US citizens andnon-US citizen IMGs remain
steady, with less than 1percentage point difference from
last year of 67% and 58.5%respectively.
Sjsm alone matched 105 studentsinto residency this year.
(04:24):
We are still waiting on somepost-match results, but even
then, 105 is the highest numberof matched residents for SJSM
ever.
Our students continue to makestrides in the match and the
results show it.
To match for residency,students must not only have
great scores on the US MLE, butneed a clear strategy when it
comes to applying for residency.
(04:45):
Networking, strong letters ofrecommendation, good interview
preparation, good research onIMG-friendly residency programs
are just some of the things thatwill make a huge difference in
matching.
Over the past two years, we'verecorded several podcasts where
we covered the best practicesfrom our students who did match.
I would strongly encourage youto check some of them out.
(05:06):
However, not all students aresuccessfully matched through the
main match day process.
This is where SOAP comes in.
Soap, or the Supplementer Offerand Acceptance Program, is a
process designed to helpunmatched applicants find
residency positions that arestill available after the main
match.
It's a fast-paced, intenseprocess where applicants apply
(05:29):
to unfilled programs and receiveoffers in rounds.
You really have to work closelywith your school.
Moreover, this entire processlasts literally no more than one
to two days.
Throughout the SOAP, applicantshave the opportunity to apply
for unfilled programs, receiveand consider offers and make
decisions quickly.
(05:49):
It's a challenging process, butit offers a chance for
unmatched applicants to secure aresidency position In 2023,.
There were a total of 40,375positions offered in the match.
2,431 of them were filledthrough the SOAP.
While the chances of matching inSOAP are not great, a good
number of our students weresuccessful in doing so this year
(06:12):
.
Now, if you haven't matched atall this year, it is crucial
that you use the next 11 monthswisely.
We advise our students to takeon a meaningful role in a
medical or an educationalinstitution, preferably at some
sort of a clinical exposure.
Students who meaningfully usetheir time between matches are
highly likely to match next year.
(06:33):
But the year gap does not meana year off.
I'll give you a very clearexample of this.
St James School of Medicine has,for eight years, been running
the USMLE Counseling Program.
In this program, we hire ourstudents who didn't match or
didn't apply in time, but havefinished the entire SJSM
curriculum, to become a USMLEcounselor for our basic science
(06:55):
students In about 10 months.
Our counselors, aside fromhelping basic science students
to be successful in theirprogram, spend time working with
our team on research,curriculum evaluation and, even
more importantly, networking andapplication and interview
preparation.
As a result, in eight years, 31counselors have matched at a
100% match rate the next year.
(07:17):
Some of these folks that hadfailures on USMLE have had
several unsuccessful matches.
One student failed to matchfour times before coming to the
USMLE Counseling position andthen subsequently matched.
My point here is there is noexcuse.
If you fail to match this year,roll up your sleeves, come up
with a plan and use the next 11months in the most meaningful
(07:39):
way possible and, mostimportantly, network.
With that said, I'd like tobring in a guest on today's show
.
Please welcome Dr PabloCiceroca and SJSM alumni, a
newly matched resident and soonto be former USMLE counselor.
Pablo will tell us a little bitabout what helped him match and
what his words of wisdom willbe for the next group of
(08:03):
students who are going to appearfor the match in 2025.
So, without further ado, let'swelcome Dr Ciceroca.
Welcome to our show, pablo, andbefore we even say another word
, congratulations.
Thank you so much.
So, just so our viewers know,today is match day.
(08:23):
Can you kind of tell us whatthis week is and the logistics
of this week, so our viewersknow exactly what you've been
through this entire week?
Speaker 3 (08:32):
Oh yes.
So yeah, this match was beingmixed with emotions, especially
family waiting to see whereyou're going to end up.
First day is kind of like youmatched and that's like a big
weight off your shoulders.
But then Friday is like where?
So you know, basically, is thisyour top choice?
Or where in the list right, didthey rank you?
(08:52):
So I'm just really happy youknow that it has come to
protection.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Okay, so a lot of
hard work but it paid off A lot
of hard work.
And can you kind of tell usabout this ranking process?
And a lot of our viewers arenot familiar with that.
And Monday, so obviously yousubmit your choices during the
match process.
You interview, you getinterview calls and, just for
the record, can you tell ourviewers how many interviews you
(09:17):
got?
Speaker 3 (09:18):
I actually got 23
interviews Okay yes.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
So I want to talk a
little bit about that.
Almost sounds like too much,but I want to know, know what
the personal implications of 23interviews are.
But before we get into that, soyou, you, after the interviews
you go for these visits or theseinterviews, you fly out.
Some of them are over zoom,some of them are in person.
(09:42):
Right it as a percentage?
How many were in person?
How many were over zoom?
I think it was 5050.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Yeah, somewhere over
zoom, so we're in person.
Okay, yeah, and some of themthat you had the option like
they could offer, like your zoomover, you know, basically
because they understand somepeople can fly out, okay, so
they made, but not all theprograms are made the same.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
And as far as so,
what once you finish all your
interviews?
Interviews are typically donewhat around November, December
yes, I know some interviews wentthrough January as well, not
for you maybe, but for someother students.
So pretty much after June,there seem January there seems
to be a hard stop on interviews.
No more interviews, yes, and atthat point, when do you go to
the NRMP website and when do youactually fill out that?
(10:27):
Hey, these are my top choices.
When does that happen?
So order list, as they call it,yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
So basically, I don't
remember off the top of my head
the exact date, but there's adate that you have to go in.
Basically you put the programsand list of you know your top
choice all the way to your leastfavorite.
Or if there's a program thatyou basically don't want to go,
you know basically you don'trank them, so depending any
program, basically it's apossibility that you can match
(10:53):
into right At the end of the dayis also the program right how
far in the list?
Because they also have a list.
So depending how you know howtop in the list that you are,
basically you will match intothat program.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
So basically the way
it sounds like, it's like you
submit a choice list and thenthe hospital submits a choice
list of candidates, correct?
I just heard from a programdirector it's typically double
the number of seats that theyhave.
So if this program has 13openings, the program director
said that they typically rank 26candidates, and then they then,
(11:29):
and then the NRMP algorithm.
There's no human interactioninto this as far as my
understanding is that.
Oh, pablo ranked universityprogram a in his top three and
the university also ranked Pabloas well.
There's a match, so he matches,and so so how many programs can
(11:56):
you rank?
Speaker 3 (11:57):
You can rank as many
programs as you want.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
There is actually yes
, so so if you went to apply for
100 programs, you canpotentially rank 100?
.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Yeah, you can
potentially rank programs.
Yeah, the only things that youpay a fee past, you know, the 10
top list.
But you can definitely rank asmany programs as you want.
Okay, so you, how many programsdid you rank?
I ranked basically all theprograms.
Okay because I definitely wantit, you know, basically to have,
you know, as a backup option.
You know, in case you know mytop choice didn't choose me.
(12:28):
You know I will still have a,like you know, somewhere to go.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Right, right, right.
And how expensive does thiscome out to be Like typical, so
let me rephrase it.
What for a student who's tryingto get into residency next year
?
What recommendation would yougive them to?
To rank how many programsminimum?
Speaker 3 (12:50):
minimum.
You know you should be rankingat least 10 programs.
Yes, based on the NRMP data,they say you know, if you rank
10 programs and you getdefinitely 10 interviews right,
you have a 95% of matching.
So yeah, so that's what thedata has been showing in the
past year.
So you know, past the 10thyou're definitely going to match
.
Okay, so that was therecommendation by NRMP data.
(13:13):
That's, that's amazing.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
And so now, going
back to the interview process,
you said that there's someprograms give you a choice.
Do you think that there is anadvantage of going in person
versus doing something over zoom?
Speaker 3 (13:32):
from your personal
experience?
That's an excellent question.
I definitely believe in personis much better, not only because
you get to see the program faceto face, you get to interact
with the residents.
It's not the same as you know,you're in front of the computer
screen, right, and you don'tknow the.
You know what, you know theymight be thinking about you, or
maybe we don't know what'shoused the hospital going to be.
(13:52):
So there's always, by going inperson, you get to see not only
the hospital that you're goingto be working on.
You know you're going to see,you know the colleagues, your
residents, so you have thatability.
Maybe you know if you have afamily you can also see.
You know where you're going toend up living.
So this was very important forme.
That's why I always chose ifthe, if the program had like the
(14:12):
option for in person, I alwayschose that Right.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
And what about a
program that has only zoom?
Did you do anything?
Did you follow any tactics tomake yourself stand out during
the zoom, Like did you wear aspecial hat?
Speaker 3 (14:30):
No, yeah, that's a
great question, not a special
hat.
Yeah, I just in every interview, you know, zoom or person, I
just try to be myself.
You know, you know therecommendations, just dress well
, but at the end of the day youwant to be yourself, right, you
can't just, you know, you know,try to be somebody else.
You got to be unique, genuine,okay, and I think you know
(14:50):
that's what programs are lookingfor you, right, you know
they're really not worried aboutyou know how you're dressing,
but the personality if you'rethat's why it's called, I think
the match right, okay, if youmatch, you know, with the
mission of the hospital and youalso match, you know, what
you're trying to get from thehospital.
So it's both ways.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Okay, so based on
your experience now, with so
many interviews this year whichyou've knocked it out of the
park, what's your advice forinterviews?
Did you have any technicalinterviews where they're asking
you very technical stuff thatyou've learned in basic sciences
(15:29):
or even in your clinicals, orwere they all behavioral?
What?
What is your take?
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Yeah, so that's a
great question.
In my interviews I was wasn'tasked anything clinical.
It was actually about asituational, like behavioral
questions, and most of the timeit was just basically
personality right.
They were just asking you know,you know basically what you do
for fun, you know the thingsthat basically that some
sometimes people think, oh, youknow, these are cheesy questions
(15:57):
, but they actually want to findout if you're able to be in a
team right with the other peoplethat are already residents,
right, if you're able tointeract well with them.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
So that's where
they're looking, right, you know
so I do know that thisparticular aspect has changed a
little bit.
When you talk to physicians ofyesteryear, who are obviously in
really, really high positionsnow, they always say that in the
60s, 70s and 80s and even the90s and early 2000s, there was a
(16:28):
big focus on we want lonewolves that was the term that
they used, lone wolves Whereasnow every time I talk to a
program director and from whatyou're saying, it seems like the
mindset is more about I don'twant to learn wolf, I want a
team and I want the team, thesum of the team members, to be
greater than the individuals.
That is correct, and is thatwhat you saw in your interviews?
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Yes, yes.
Now I think you know most ofthe questions, especially the
behavioral there were.
You know gear tours, you knowhow can you, you know, do this
within a team, right?
How well can you interactwithin a team?
So most of the questions weretesting you to see how well you
know you're, you're, you're ableto interact with others.
Right, because at the end ofthe day, you know, you go into a
residency program, you become adoctor, but the success is not
(17:15):
only one person, it's made fromdifferent people.
So you're going to work withsocial workers, residents
attending.
So I think that's it hasshifted, like you said.
So now it's like more.
We want a person that can dowell with others.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Okay, interesting and
you know, talking a little bit
about the residency process,this is something that a lot of
people don't understand orrealize is that obviously, med
school expenses are med schoolexpenses, but residency this is
not cheap either.
Right?
If you don't mind, could youtell us about how much you
(17:50):
budgeted and what you kind oflooked at overall from a
budgeting standpoint on how youarrange your finances for this
whole process, because itcouldn't have been cheap.
You're traveling to 27different destinations.
You're probably staying a night, or do the programs actually
provide you with a place?
Speaker 3 (18:08):
Some programs do
provide, basically, you know,
hotel accommodations and butmost of the programs that I had
on my list didn't didn't haveany, any of this.
So it was a lot of expenses,right.
So you know I budgeted, youknow, more or less, like in the,
you know the 10 grand, but youactually came out more because
you know I had to stay maybe alittle bit.
I wanted to see the area.
(18:28):
You know, sometimes, you know,when you go into a program in
person, it's like a one daything but you want to at least
take another day right Just toexplore the area, explore where
you're going to be, just imagineyourself that you are already
in that program and so you know,I usually, you know, my
expenses were a little bithigher because of that, because
of food and all these types ofthings, transportation and so
(18:49):
forth.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
So, from your
experience, if you were to make
a rule of thumb for the expensesthat they should budget for the
match process and theinterviewing process, what would
you say per interview that theyreceive or they think that they
would receive?
(19:10):
What should be a rule of thumbbudget?
Would it be $1,000, $2,000,$10,000 per interview?
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Yeah, I think you
know the rule of thumb will be
around like $1,500, $2,000 perinterview.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Okay, yeah, and even
to apply to the NRMP, that's
expensive too, right?
Yeah, yeah, how much is that?
Speaker 3 (19:27):
So the NRMP, the NRMP
, basically you just pay a fee,
right?
I think what you pay most isactually the ERS application
whenever you're certifying.
So you're actually paying moreto be certified, right, and to
basically submit all yourtranscript to ERS.
But I NRMP is just like aone-time fee.
It's not really that expensive,okay.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
So from the period
that you graduate and you're
applying for matches to theperiod that before you get any
interview calls.
What expenditure would astudent be looking at Before any
interview calls?
Before any interviews?
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Yeah, Wow, that's
hard to say.
I will say, in a couple of, youknow, thousands, a couple of
thousands, yeah, a couple ofthousands, but less than five.
Less than five, yeah, less thanfive.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
So I think it sounds
like a safe bet would be $5,000
for the match process, yes, andor the application process of
the match, and then another$1,500 give or take per
interview that they might havereceived.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
That's correct, yeah,
and that also, you know, will
vary.
Yeah, it's very expensive andthat will vary.
Basically, you know, dependingif you want to, you know, go up
because you know the matchingprocess.
You want to look the best right, so you want to, you know, have
the best picture.
You want to, you know,basically have the best personal
statement.
Maybe you want to hire acompany to help you, you know,
with your personal statementwhatever.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Well, we don't
recommend that.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
We help with that
Exactly yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
We want our students
to come to us.
Yes, I wish they would use thisa little bit more.
It's just a matter of giving usa call, giving the office a
call, giving our clinicaldepartment a call.
Hey, I'm writing this personalstatement.
Can you review it?
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Yeah, At the end of
the day, you want somebody else
to review your personalstatement.
You'll see how it sounds.
You know, sometimes when we'rewriting personal statements,
right, sometimes we think it'sthe best, but, you know, maybe
another person that's actuallyreading it thinking it's missing
a couple of things.
And I remember revising thisright.
It took me, you know, a coupleof months to actually get to my
final, my final paper, Right.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
That's awesome.
So now going back, this was.
I know we talked about this inthe first place and you said
that this was not the first timeyou applied for match.
You've had.
You've attempted this before.
Obviously, there were someextenuating circumstances
because of which you couldn'tfollow through with the match
process.
I just want to know what yourexperience is like as far as
(21:48):
managing the stress.
So let's talk about the stresslevel with match.
Generally speaking, I can'teven imagine what that's like
the way I so I'm not a physician, but the way I envision the
match process is essentially,it's like applying for a job but
you're only allowed theapplication for a certain time
(22:09):
frame and the results are givenout on one day.
Would that be a faircharacterization for somebody
who's not a physician?
Speaker 3 (22:15):
It doesn't understand
.
I think so, but I think alsothe stress level is too high.
Especially, you know that youknow you have certain deadlines,
right.
You know you have to wait untilmatch day to know your results.
You actually, you know you'reyou're working on different
things, right, to improve.
You know who you are.
Especially, you know if you'vebeen, you know, through
different cycles of theresidency process.
Right, you're thinking, well,how can I do this better, how
(22:38):
can I do this?
And then the stress level comes.
You know, at the match weekthat's when everything's going
to happen.
You're going to, you know,either match or not match.
So it's, you know it's filledwith emotions, right.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
So, since you've been
through this process before, do
you think your stress levelsget progressively higher?
Or do you think because youwent through this process once
before, you were moreexperienced and you had better
manage stress management toolsavailable?
Speaker 3 (23:05):
Yeah, so I believe I
have better stress management
right.
That basically after goingbecause I had a like more
experience, you know I learnedfrom my mistakes.
I learned you know what Ineeded to do to become better,
better, basically applicantright To stand out, Right.
I think the only stress wasbasically match week, right.
I think everyone has this.
But you know, you know, goingthrough the process again, you
(23:27):
understand what you need to do,right.
It's not like you know yourfirst time and you don't know.
Okay, what should I do?
You know personal statement,all these, all the strategies,
you already have them.
So I think it did help.
It helped Okay.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
So also, you know, I
know you're a dad, You're
obviously a husband and I'vealways been a big advocate for
having an emotional supportsystem, which obviously families
are great for.
However, when it comes tostudying and I advise my
students this all the time thatI think families are a detriment
(24:05):
to the studying process,because when you're studying
medicine, you're looking ateight to 10 hours nonstop.
You don't want distractions andthat's why I always advise
students who always say, oh, I'mgoing to do so much better at
home.
No, you're not, because momsand dads, with all due respect
to them, they don't understandthis.
If you're living with them, ifyou're living with husbands and
wives and they're not physiciansthey're not understanding the
(24:26):
stresses that you're goingthrough.
They will be like oh hey, youknow, pablo, can you run to the
grocery store and get me this?
Or, hey, dad, can you take meto the park?
These are distractions, verygood distractions, but they are
distractions nonetheless.
So when it comes to studyingand step one, studying I always
say you know what Familysecondary at this point In your
(24:47):
situation with the match process, what do you think?
Did you think the familiesreally was a big benefit?
Because the amount of work thatgoes, and I've seen so many
students go through the matchprocess.
It's not an easy process.
First, let's break down thetime commitment that's required
to actually fill in theapplication and then prepare for
(25:09):
the interviews on a daily basis.
So if you got 27, 23 interviews, as you said, how much time did
it take for you to prepare foreach interview?
Speaker 3 (25:20):
I think you know with
me since coming.
You know past two cycles, youknow I had more experience.
I think you know what took methe most was, you know,
preparing myself into.
You know the strategy of howwould I present myself to the
programs.
I think, at the end of the day,right, they, some of these
programs, they do ask similarquestions.
Right, and you got to begenuine.
(25:40):
You can't just, you know, copya certain script, right, you got
to be genuine.
And I think for me, what helpedme the most was you know, I'm
going to try be genuine.
Every single interview.
I'm going to try to answerbasically honestly.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
And I also did look
basically at, you know,
different residency programsthat actually had a couple of,
like example, interviewquestions, so I did practice
those and I became better right.
You know I got friends tolisten to me because this is
very important, you know you gotto, you got to practice.
So you know practice makesperfect Right, and I believe you
know that helped me the mostRight right, and so even the
(26:19):
application.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
so a lot of students
fill out the application while
they're studying.
How much time does theapplication and researching the
programs and applying to theprogram state?
Is that a huge time commitmentor is it like not at all?
It's like 10 minutes?
No, it takes time.
It takes time depending.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
you know, if you
definitely, what program are you
interested in?
Right, you got to researchsomething you know in the ERAS,
you know, for those that don'tknow, you know you only get like
a little detail of the programyou get.
You know who the programdirectors are, the email, the
contact information, but youknow you don't know the mission
of the hospital, you don't know.
You know what they're about.
So you know it's up to you togo there and do your own
(27:00):
research, right, and this isgoing to take time.
So you got to balance out.
You know, while you're studying, while you're taking care of
family, you know, here and thereand this was, you know, kind of
like the biggest challenge forme, right, as a parent, right,
because I had, you know, myfamily had to support I also was
basically studying, you know,and then I also had to have my
own time to research programs.
(27:21):
So, but I think at the end ofthe day it worked out, right, it
worked out.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
And so, so obviously,
I know you have a very young
son and you know young childrenthey're children, they need a
lot of attention, and not justfrom mom, they need attention
from dad too.
Um, so how, how did you managethat?
Like, this aspect of playingmultiple roles I know we all
(27:44):
play multiple roles, but itseems like you know, 23
interviews is not normal.
Like it is, it is a very goodabnormal to be at.
This is remarkable.
And preparing for all thoseinterviews and all that travel I
mean kudos to your wife.
You better be really nice toher.
Uh, moving forward, because Iknow and I know how much you
(28:06):
traveled and I know how Chicagois, interior is your base, but
it really wasn't because youwere traveling so much and right
through the process you wereactually, we were colleagues,
you were working as a counselor,um, so I know exactly what you
went through.
But how did you manage that?
Like, were there any specificstrategies that you were using?
Was it, like you know, justbuying your wife flowers every
(28:29):
time you were here?
Like, how did?
How did?
Speaker 3 (28:31):
that work out.
Yeah, it was stressful at times.
I kind of like fell badsometimes, you know, with my son
because I had to sacrifice time, you know, to actually, you
know, fly out.
But at the end of the day, youknow before that, you got to be
honest with your family, right,you know they have to believe
right in what you're doing,right, it's going to be make a
better outcome, you know, at theend of the day.
(28:52):
So, you know, I talked to myfamily.
I was really honest and I toldthem you listen, I got to do
this right.
It's going to take, you know,some time.
You know off from.
You know how we spend together,right, there's going to be days
I'm not going to be there.
So I think that honesty levelreally helped.
Okay, and you know my sonactually, you know, you know he
understood he, you know he wasalways happy.
Oh, where are you going next?
(29:12):
You know where are youtraveling.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
So he kind of like
took a kind of like a game.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
Yeah, so we had kind
of like a map and we will like
place, like little little dots,that's all you know.
I will travel this place, thisplace, and then he will ask me
you know when I will come back?
How was it?
How was it?
So I think you know it's.
You know it came out perfect.
It came out perfect.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
What was the reaction
when you told him that you
matched in your top choice?
Speaker 3 (29:35):
Oh yeah, they were.
You know my wife, my son, youknow they're extremely happy,
you know.
You know they were, you knowthey were.
Oh my God, I cannot express youknow the emotions that they're
going through.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Right, yeah, and now
they have a place.
Your wife was no more travelinglike this anymore, yeah,
exactly.
And where were you situatedbefore that?
I know you came to Chicagoessentially for the counselor
position.
Before that you were somewhereelse.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
Yeah, so I was
actually in Miami, florida, wow,
and I was doing like anexternship.
You know, I was trying to, youknow, improve my chances since I
went to this cycle, and boy didyou 23 interviews.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
That's amazing.
I want to talk a little bitabout this position that you
came in for, the counselorposition.
This was a position that westarted St James started.
This is unique.
No other Caribbean I don't notthat I know of I don't know.
You've been our student for awhile so you know probably more,
but as far as my research goes,no other Caribbean school even
(30:32):
does anything close to this.
Forget about Caribbean school.
No American school does this aswell, and we've been very
pivotal and we're very proud ofthis.
You guys are a seventh groupthat have gone through our
program, this counselor program,and they've you've matched, and
typically the counselors wetake are students who've had
(30:55):
more than one attempt in thematch.
We don't take students who justgraduated.
I want to hear a little moreabout your take on the counselor
position.
You came to us, you wanted tobe a counselor.
Did that position really helpin improving your resume?
What does that job reallyentail and things like that.
So can you kind of let's startby what is?
(31:17):
How would you describe thecounselor position?
Speaker 3 (31:20):
Yeah, that's an
excellent question.
So the counselor position isbasically helping you know your
fellow students right.
You're wearing their shoes at agiven point, right, you were in
basic sciences, so you get tohelp them out, you get to tutor
them, guide them in the rightdirection, and I think it's very
important.
I've always believed you're inthe principle of service and I
think that's why I chose alsothis position, because you know
what a better way of helping.
(31:41):
You know people that arestruggling, you know that
understand.
You know you might be thinkingabout, you know you have
challenges while you're startingfor your steps, but you're
going to have other challenges,right.
So I get to basically guidethem and tell them that you know
this is not the end, right, youget to support them and be
their advocate, the same way asa patient.
But you have, basically, youhave that role and you know, I
(32:04):
think it impacted a lot of mystudents, right.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
So the counselor
position essentially for our
viewers who don't know what itis it's essentially you have
private tuitions at your beckand call.
There's no extra charge for itfor students.
They can come in if they'restruggling with something and
they cannot get the professor orthey're still having difficulty
after meeting the professor.
That's when they can reach out.
That's correct.
I have to ask this.
(32:29):
I always ask this when I meetpeople in different professions
what is the funniest experienceyou had as a counselor with the
student and what is the mosttouching experience you've had
as a counselor?
Speaker 3 (32:45):
I think the funniest
one.
You know, as you make yourmeetings and you meet students,
you know from all religions,different ways of life.
You know I had this student,you know, basically going in
pajamas.
Basically I wasn't expectingthat, you know.
Basically, you think, you knowyou're going to be having a
session, you know veryprofessional, but you know,
sometimes they just, you know,want to be relaxed.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Right.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
You know I had this,
this student, you know, I
remember, you know he was inpajamas and in the background
you have all these toys andeverything.
So it was kind of like veryfunny.
You know, just, you know, Iwasn't expecting that.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
What kind of toys?
Just say it.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
So he has some
transformer anime toys.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
I don't know my mind
it went to the gutters so I'm
not even going to.
Speaker 3 (33:29):
I was like oh, what
kind of toys are you just?
Speaker 2 (33:32):
displaying out there.
Okay, but that's interesting.
Okay, a grown person having.
I mean, maybe he's a collector,yeah, and what's the most
touching story?
Speaker 3 (33:42):
I think the most
touching was when you see that
student that's being basically,you know, time and time again
has not passed you know thebasically NBMEs, the step one,
and you tutor them, you guidethem for a couple of months and
you know I've had the privilegeand you know the pleasure of you
know these students writing tome and telling me thank you, I
(34:02):
passed the step one, and it'snot only one.
I've had, like you know, fiveor six that passed the step one,
you know just months andbasically 15 that actually
passed the NBME.
So I had a lot of impact andyou know, just seeing those
letters, you know basically itgoes beyond right, it's like a
feeling that you can't describe.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Right, that's awesome
, that's truly amazing.
I mean, and just so our viewersknow, since Pablo has matched
and you know, reluctantly, wehave to let him go.
So we do have three counselorpositions open this year.
We want applications.
It's a great workingenvironment.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthe working environment?
Let's might as well make thisan advertisement for the
(34:42):
counseling position.
But like, did you think thecounseling position helped you
in your application process?
Speaker 3 (34:49):
Yeah, it definitely
did.
It definitely did I.
Actually, you know, I believeyou know you get transformed
basically while you're doingthis.
You know, as you help othersand there's going to be a lot of
people that are going to helpyou throughout the process in
the as well.
So you know I got transformed.
You know I saw a differentoutlook of what I needed to do
(35:11):
and basically, you know you gethelp.
You know with your own, youknow basically personal
statement, as you're helpingothers, you get to find new
ideas.
Maybe I should do this epiphanyyes, wow, you know, yeah, and
especially you know thecounselor position.
You, you know, prior tointerview season, we actually
have basically interview.
You know basically practice.
(35:31):
So you know we have otherstudents that would like to
practice interview skills and Ithink this helped tremendously
because you get to listen inRight, kind of like you were
like a program director, and youget to listening how others
respond to those questions.
They actually, you know,tremendously helped me as well.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Well, but you did get
23 interviews and before we had
our mock interview sessionswith all our students, I think
you already completed quite afew interviews, if I'm not
mistaken.
Yes, so you had a lot ofexperience to you know.
Tell students what to expect.
I mean, I think the biggestmistake that I've seen doing
these mock interviews studentscome in expecting technical
(36:09):
questions and then when you askthem what's your hobby, they're
scrounging around trying tofigure oh my God, I didn't even
think about hobbies.
I mean, what do I tell them?
And I've had students come andtell them my hobby is sleeping.
I'm like whoa dude, don't pleaselike.
No, you're going to be working80 hours, up to 80 hours, as a
(36:30):
resident.
Don't tell a program directorthat your hobby is sleeping.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
Yeah, Nobody's going
to encourage that kind of a
hobby?
Yeah, and you know, as cheesyas this question might be, this
was one of the most commonquestions that every program did
ask because they want toconnect.
Even you know, you know, I'veheard stories that program
directors connect with theapplicant if they share the same
hobby.
Right, so you can't just, youknow, make up a hobby because
they will get you right.
So you just try to be honest,right, if your hobby is, you
(36:57):
know, playing tennis, you know,at least you know you got to
know the famous players, right,something that you can have a
conversation right, that showsinterest.
That shows interest, right.
Yeah, you can connect with them.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Okay.
And what about mentioning?
Do you think the kind of hobbymakes any difference?
Because this is veryinteresting, because I spent
nearly a decade in consultingand when we were recruiting we
were always told you know, if acandidate reaches your desk it
means that technically there'ssound.
(37:29):
You don't have to worry aboutthe technical aspect.
We've tested him, we'vequestioned him and grilled him
with its qualifications.
Don't worry about that.
We just need you to knowwhether you can tolerate this
person working, say, pulling anall nighter with this person.
Can you handle that?
Can you, because in consultingyou travel a lot.
When you travel, if your flightgets canceled and you have an
(37:49):
eight hour layover and you'restuck at the airport, can you?
Are you okay being stuck in theairport for eight hours?
So it makes sense that programdirectors are also looking at it
the same way, that they wantsomebody they can like and they
find interesting.
So and so, even in consulting,what are your hobbies was a very
, very important question.
It's very interesting andsurprising to see that program
(38:12):
directors are kind of using thesame tactics.
But Do you think that there's ahobby that's better or worse
than anything Than you knowother hobbies Like?
Do you think if you say that,hey, you know what I don't know?
Um, dissecting insects is agreat hobby, and is that going
to like make things a littleeasier for a surgeon?
(38:34):
I'm just making stuff up, butdo you think, from your
experience, after doing so manyinterviews, there's a better
hobby than others, or not?
Speaker 3 (38:42):
I, you know that's a
great question.
I think, at the end of the day,there's no best hobby.
Um, you know, one of the mostimportant things is that, if you
, you understand, what type ofskill are you trying to portray,
because this is actually not aquestion about the hobby, but
the type of hobby, like you'resaying, and what skill right are
you going to bring.
So maybe, like you were talking, like you know dissecting,
(39:03):
maybe this is your curiousperson, and sometimes you know
programs that they're lookingfor this type of person.
That's very curious, right?
You know my hobby is tennis.
So you know I work great in ateam, right?
So you know they will ask me,you know how would you?
You know what's your favoriteplayer?
Or have you played with?
You know doubles, singles, sothat's how you know they try to
just find out a little bit moreabout you, right?
Speaker 2 (39:25):
So that's interesting
.
So I will say this, though Oneof our counselors in previous
groups had this conversationwith the program director and he
obviously matched into theprogram and this is a very
bizarre hobby.
His hobby was blacksmithingLike he would actually make
(39:46):
metal stuff.
And when the program directorheard this he was like, oh, this
is crazy.
I've never met anybody whosehobby is being a blacksmith,
because mine is stew and he'slike I make swords, like actual
swords, as a hobby.
And I was talking to thisparticular student.
He said that, yeah, I mean, theprogram director after session
(40:07):
said hey, why don't you comeover?
And they built several thingstogether and this program
director's garage is basically aregular forge, like he has
burnt his stuff.
So to your point, I think, andthe only reason he was invited
this was before he even matchedthey just say, hey, why don't
you come over?
Like, and he wanted, wasinterested in the techniques
(40:28):
that he knows, because it's sucha unique hobby, and I was like
man, that's amazing.
So to your point.
And Anna this, on the flip side, I also know students who've
lied about their hobbies and gotcaught in the lie and obviously
like, for example, someone saidgardening and then the program
director asked okay, what's yourfavorite plant?
They didn't have a plant inmind.
(40:49):
That's a favorite plant.
Again to your point, if yourhobby is gardening and you
cannot name a plant, that's aproblem.
Or if you're getting somethingcompletely basic wrong where you
know you're calling a succulentsomething else, things that are
relatively common knowledge, Ithink that that's really
(41:09):
terrible.
But talk to me about the officeenvironment here a little bit.
What was your take on it?
I mean, we've had mixed reviewson our office environment.
I mean I will say this that ouroffice environment is very laid
back, and it is.
We want students and everybodyto come out of their shell and
(41:32):
at least this is what we try todo is know we don't want people
to be fearful, because fear isnever a good thing.
People react differently,people have different reactions
to fear and they're never theirbest under under.
So we don't in our office atleast, we definitely don't bark
(41:52):
orders.
We try to work with people'sschedules.
We understand this is a job.
There are bigger things thatpeople.
The job is a means to an endand in most cases, the way we
look at things, the end isfamily, and so that's what we
(42:14):
want to portray, I want, yourtake as an outsider I wouldn't
call it an outsider who came infor a year into our office.
What was your feeling?
Did you feel welcomed?
Did you think that, wow, thisis a little too much.
This is really informal?
What was your take on the thing?
Speaker 3 (42:32):
Yeah, that's a great
question.
You know, when I came to thisposition, what I love the most
was the people, right, you knoweverybody here is very helpful.
They want you to succeed, right, they want, you know, at the
end of the day, your goal is tomatch, you know, but you're also
helping other students.
I just felt welcomed, right,and I just enjoy, you know, the
environment.
You know I came every day whenI woke up.
(42:53):
You know I wanted to.
You know, come to.
You know, come to work.
You know I definitely enjoy it.
You know every minute of it.
And I think, at the end of theday, I also impacted other
people.
I helped them and I learned,right, because you're also
learning as you go through.
And the funny thing is, youknow you will lose the fear,
right, if you're a person infear, it's normal, right, but
when you come to this position,you will definitely shed that
(43:16):
fear off.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
That's good.
That's what we want, because ifyou're fearful and this is a
philosophy of our, of our as aschool, this is how we run our
school is that you shouldn't befearful of failing.
Failing is a part of learning,it's a part of the journey.
Like you know, if you want toget somewhere, you need to take
steps to getting that andgetting over that fear.
(43:38):
Whatever that is writing, not agood personal statement your
first personal statement isnever going to be good, and we
want people to get over thatembarrassment, get over that
fear and ask for help when theyneed it.
I think that is the key, andnot just in medicine, but even
in our work.
And you know we you know, aftertoday's match results, we are
officially the fifth largestCaribbean school right now with
(44:03):
the number of students thatwe're matching into the program.
It's nearly 100 students.
There are almost no otherschools other than the Big Four
that have more matches than wedo.
But what we want is we want ourstudents to, and I think that
we've opened up our lines ofcommunication with our students
much better than we've done inthe past, largely because of our
counselors, and we really wantour students to not be fearful,
(44:28):
because that's something that Ialways feel, that they are
afraid of something or the other, like I'm not going to be the
best candidate.
That's with all due respect.
That's not your decision.
It's the program director'sdecision.
If they've called you for aninterview, you're pretty darn
good to begin with.
No one's giving out, no one'sdoing charity or no one's giving
a handout.
No one's interested in givingyou.
(44:50):
They will only accept you ifyou're the best candidate.
So my personal statement isn'tgood and I'm too afraid to ask
for help.
I don't want to apply forsurgery, because what if I fail?
These are things that these area part of the process.
This is not failure, but thesetemperaments is something that
(45:13):
we, at least from our managementstyle, we want to exemplify
that this is not how peopleshould lead their life.
Doing any, making a decisionfrom a position of fear is never
a good decision.
That is correct, and I hopethat the minimum takeaway for
you after being with us for ayear is that that you know if
(45:34):
you fail or if there is adistinct possibility of you
failing, that should not be thereason why you don't attempt
something, whether it's afellowship, whether it's a risky
procedure, whatever that may beBecause in a lot of situations
you'll see even a smallerpercentage of success as long as
there is a probability ofsuccess makes the whole journey
(45:58):
worthwhile.
And I can tell you that becauseI've been an entrepreneur for a
very long time and I faileddramatically, yes, but at the
same time still standing.
And you know, like, as youpointed out, with time, with the
more attempts that you've, theattempts that you've taken for
this match, you've gotten betterat handling stress.
(46:20):
Yes, and handling things, and Ithink that's the growth.
Yes.
Speaker 3 (46:24):
That you have with.
You're growing in character andI believe you know when you
start something and you don'tknow if it's going to succeed or
not, that it's going to value.
You know what type of character.
You know you're your ownwarrior.
You got to.
You know, go out there.
And the other thing that youdefinitely said you got to be
open for change.
Right, you know you don't haveall the keys at the moment.
You know there's going to bepeople there that could
(46:45):
definitely help you.
Right, and I was always open,right For change.
I think I believe you know thiswas one of the turning points
you know from past matches tohow I matching, how I got these
interviews, because I said tomyself you know I need help and
I'm going to get it.
And you know, and people aregoing to go out of their way to
help me and that says this way.
So I shed the fear and you knowthis.
(47:06):
You know, in turn, theenvironment helped me succeed.
That's awesome.
Speaker 2 (47:11):
My final question to
you is through the match process
you must have met or reachedout to several alumni and other
St James student.
What has been your experiencewith that Like?
Has it been positive?
Has it been great?
Our students, really former StJames students.
(47:31):
Are they trying to help you out?
Do program directors know aboutSt James?
What's been your experience?
Speaker 3 (47:36):
Yeah, exactly, that's
an excellent question.
So, yes, I think it reallyhelped because you know you have
that connection right.
You know they went to the sameschool as you.
They understand where, whatyou're battling, what your
opposition, your challenges areand they go out of their way to
help you, to tell you.
You know, maybe they, you knowyou might, they might share the
phone numbers that they mighttell you if you have questions.
And I believe you know, as StJames students get placed in all
(48:00):
these different residencyprograms and, like you said
before, we have a 95% match rate.
It does tell how well you knowour students are doing right and
program directors do do.
I think you know you have kindof like a better chance of
getting an interview because StJames is a St James student.
So I did believe, basically StJames student prior St James
(48:22):
students, our residents now theygo out of their way to help me
basically and you know to maybeyou know speak, you know good,
on behalf of the programdirectors and so forth.
Awesome, so Awesome.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
Well, I mean
congratulations and along your
journey, we hope that you willbe one of those alumni who are
going to see St James studentsand be like you know what we
need that student and keeppaying it forward, because
that's what it's all about.
That's how St James has becomeone of the biggest Caribbean
schools and the most successfuland we really really like.
(48:58):
Our success is your success,and I also want to point out
something that you said earlierthat beyond your immediate
family, nobody wants you moresuccessful than me and everybody
else in the office.
Speaker 3 (49:10):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
Because we see the
difference and the impact that
our alumnus have has made.
We've seen how these studentshave climbed up the various
career ladders that they'vechosen to follow and where they
are today, and how they'reinfluencing the medical
community today and how they'repositively influencing the
(49:34):
results of our school today.
A lot of the matches that we'regetting today, our matched
percentages, are growingdramatically and the reason
we're doing so well is becauseof alumni who are opening doors
for our students and that is soheartwarming and so advantageous
, and that's why I keep tellingour incoming students and the
(49:56):
current students who are in theprogram get out of this bubble
that you're in.
Go out and talk to ourmanagement office, talk to us,
tell us that, hey, these are theprograms I'm interested in.
We will make the introductionsto former alumni who have some
sort of association with theprogram and that just opened so
many doors.
(50:17):
Yeah, but Pablo, or Dr Ciceroca, as I should say now,
congratulations, and we're justso incredibly proud of you.
Speaker 3 (50:26):
Thank you so much.
Thank you for having me, and Ihope the St James mission to
help the students succeedbasically continues, and I think
that's all about.
It's a great school and I'mhappy to be an alumni.
Well, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (50:42):
Thank you so much for
tuning into our show.
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