September 12, 2025 • 48 mins
What happens when universities refuse to change? 🚨 Dr. Moez Limayem, President of the University of North Florida, joins us in St. Vincent to talk about the future of higher education, why banning AI will not work, and how micro-credentials might replace traditional degrees. The jet of innovation is taking off.
Will universities get on board or be left behind? Watch the new episode of Med School Minutes and find out.
#MedSchoolMinutes #SaintJamesSchoolOfMedicine #HigherEducation #FutureOfEducation #ArtificialIntelligence #CriticalThinking #MedicalEducation #AIinEducation #UniversityLife #EducationInnovation #sjsm
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Med
School Minutes podcast, where wediscuss what it takes to attend
and successfully complete amedical program.
This show is brought to you bySt James School of Medicine.
Here is your host, kaushik Guha.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to another episode of Med School Minutes.
Today we're filming from thesunny shores of St Vincent, and
our very special guest is DrMoez Limayem.
He is the president ofUniversity of North Florida and
we're going to talk to him andpick his brain a little bit
about the future of highereducation, especially while
we're in the midst of this AIand information revolution that
(00:42):
is going on.
So, without further ado, let'swelcome dr limayan.
All right, dr uh moines limayan.
Thank you so much for joiningus today in beautiful sunny
saint vincent.
Uh, I hope you're enjoying yourstay with us thank you.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Thank you so much for having me.
It's been just a wonderful stay, uh, just a a great time
meeting your wonderful students,your amazing faculty and and
the administration.
It has been really a joy, thankyou.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Well, thank you so much for the compliment.
You know, why don't we justdive right into it and give us a
little bit about yourbackground, how you came to the
United States and how you endedup as the president, which is,
in lay speak, the CEO?
(01:29):
What a CEO of a corporation isa president of an educational
institution?
Speaker 3 (01:36):
So why don't you give us Thank you?
I'll try to give you at leastthe elevator pitch and not bore
you with a lot of details.
So I'm originally from Tunisia,born to just great parents.
My mother was just a lovingmother and completely illiterate
, but one of the smartest peopleI've ever met, and my father
(01:57):
was an educator.
He was an elementary schoolteacher, then was assigned to be
the principal of elementaryschool in a very poor city in
the east of Tunisia, and Iremember very well when I was
(02:18):
probably three, four years old,of course there was no
electricity.
He will take the only oil lampthat we have at our disposal at
home to go and use it to givepro bono tutoring for the
students so that he can preparethem for a very difficult
(02:39):
national exam that will allowthem at a very young age to
either go to high school or stopand do something else.
So the passing rate is lessthan 30 percent and because of
his dedication to his studentshe reached a passing rate of 100
percent.
Yeah, and I was, I rememberalso vividly asking the question
(03:00):
that why do you take the onlyoil lamp we have?
And and you leave us with that,with the candles?
And he said you know, son,these students need it more than
we do they.
They need it so that we canchange their lives and they
change the lives of theirfamilies and become great
citizen.
And so what he was reallytalking to me about that very
(03:22):
young age is the value ofeducation in transforming lives
and also student success andcommitment to students, and so I
was born with that.
At home it's a family affair.
If you want, then fast forward.
I went to the Institut Supérieurde Gestion, which is a premier
(03:45):
school of business in Tunis, thecapital.
The very first day, the Deanand the orientation said I have
some good news and some bad news.
Okay, what is the good news?
The good news is that they havea scholarship for students to
go to the US, fully full ride,airplane, tuition fees, books,
(04:08):
everything.
It was like really a dream cometrue.
It was like, wow, this is great.
What's the bad news?
The bad news is I wonscholarship and bought 3,500
students, wow.
So I really made it as a goalto get that scholarship.
Luckily, I did get it and wentto University of Minnesota.
I did my MBA, phd Okay, went to.
(04:31):
Then my first job was in CanadaOkay, quebec.
Met my beautiful wife, dr Alia.
Then we moved to Hong Kong.
Okay, a few years in Hong Kong,then Switzerland, and then from
Switzerland back to the US viathe University of Arkansas, the
University of South Florida, asdean and since 2022, I've been
(04:55):
the president of this greatuniversity, the University of
North Florida.
So it's a really long journey.
But what is really important,for me at least, is that I went
through all the ranks foracademia.
I started as as a teachingassistant, research assistant,
then graduated, became assistantprofessor, then associate
(05:17):
professor, then department chair, then full professor, associate
dean, dean, vice president andnow president.
Oh well, that's quite a journey.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Uh, so you mentioned that you did your phd, or did
your mba and then phd.
What did you do?
What was the special?
Speaker 3 (05:34):
yeah, my specialization has always been
that intersection betweentechnology and business.
Okay, and how do we usetechnology for better business,
for better decision making?
My dissertation one was how dowe use technology for better
group decision making?
Because, as I'm sure you know,kashik um, group think is a
(05:55):
reality, and and groups um.
There's a saying that saysnothing gets accomplished by any
group unless um it's.
It consists of three peopleOkay, one is absence and the
other one is not there.
So that's how things get done.
So I designed and built asystem that actually really
(06:18):
helped people make betterdecisions as a team Okay,
decision as a team.
And then, of course, myresearch evolved to study newer
technology, like electroniccommerce, then addictions to
texting and to using thesewonderful devices we all have,
(06:43):
and now, of course, artificialintelligence is something that
I'm very passionate about andstudying a lot, right.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
So, just so people understand what a president does
, can you describe what yourday-to-day would be like?
Speaker 3 (06:59):
So I wake up around noon, have my breakfast then
play some video games, and thenit's time to eat, but in reality
it's 24-7, 365.
The University of North Floridais the backbone of Northeast
(07:22):
Florida.
We have 17,000 students, wehave around more than 3,000,
4,000 employees, we have our ownpolice, we have our own city,
if you want.
So things happen and you reallyhave to be alert and you have
to be available.
Even you know Florida is knownfor hurricanes, so even during
(07:43):
hurricanes they give me asatellite phone so I'm always
reachable.
So the best analogy, kaushik,is.
Think of a university presidentas a CEO of a company that
really hopefully puts a greatleadership team with to help
them do their job, puts a greatleadership team with to help
them do their job, but also isresponsible for rallying the
(08:08):
group behind a very compelling,attractive vision for the
university, some strategic goalsand my role.
I see it as bringing resourcesfrom the state and from
philanthropists and fromentrepreneurial activities.
Hire good people, removeobstacles and get out of their
ways.
That's very well put.
(08:29):
I always tell my team, mycabinet I'm hiring you to tell
me what to do.
If you find me telling you whatto do, there is a problem.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Yeah, no, that's a very fair point.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
So most of the decisions we make as a cabinet,
as a team, in our transparencyand communication is the key.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Okay, wow.
So now, considering yourbackground, I think University
of North Florida is very blessedto have a person with your
background.
I was just talking earlier toDr Alia about how, within
academics, it seems verydifficult to talk about change,
(09:09):
and everybody knows thatacademic change happens at a
glacial base oh, absolutely.
However, it seems like we arein the middle of an information
revolution with the app?
How do you see that impactingeducation in general and what
(09:30):
steps is UNF actually taking toposition itself and prepare
itself for this uncertainty?
Speaker 3 (09:41):
that we're going to face in the next couple of years
?
That's a great question, kashik.
You know it's important todevelop a vision and a plan, but
we all know that culture willhave any strategic plan, any
vision, any mission forbreakfast, anytime.
So that's why we work a lot onchanging the culture from a
(10:01):
culture of complacency to aculture of innovation, of
empowerment, of transparency, ofinnovation, of empowering, of
transparency, of recognitions ofexcellence.
So we work a lot on thatculture and you're absolutely
right.
Now, like healthcare, like otherindustry, higher education is
an industry that is in absolutechange, at the speed that we
(10:27):
don't even comprehend, andartificial intelligence is a
great example.
It's changing everything we do.
It's changing how we teach, howwe hire, how do we operate, how
do we manage, how we assesslearning, manage how we assess
(10:49):
learning.
So I think, to answer yourquestion, koshy, my view is that
we're going to see winners andlosers in higher educations.
The winners, who really embracethis change and this technology
and be more proactive and bethe learning organization, if
you want, and the losers werebusiness ease, as usual.
And even you've seen, you know,with the simple generative AI
(11:11):
systems, there are universitieswho are forbidding students from
using it.
Yes, I know, yes, which isreally interesting, right, and
guess what?
It doesn't matter what theuniversity does, students do use
it.
So what are we doing?
And I think I presented ourapproach to several thousand
(11:32):
academic leaders in San Diego ina conference a couple of months
ago and it was well received.
So, first of all, we made apromise to our stakeholders,
internally and externally, thatwe will be a leader in ai right,
even though we're making theairplane as we're flying it, but
we will be a leader.
(11:53):
So what does that mean?
Means you have to beintentional.
So I constituted, I formed um,an AI council that has really
good representations of facultyand staff and students,
co-chaired by our CIO and ourDean of Engineering, and I gave
them very simple but yetcomplicated and complex tasks to
(12:20):
develop a plan for UNF to be aleader worldwide in use of AI
for learning, use of AI tostrengthen our research use of
AI.
To also be the best-rununiversity in terms of
(12:43):
operational excellence using AI,and also to be the best in
serving our community and theirAI needs.
So this is very ambitious.
And let me tell you, when youempower people and you really
let them be innovative, creative, they came up with just the
most compelling strategic plan.
(13:05):
Actually, it's available.
You can just Google UNF AIstrategic plan.
You will see very specificvision, mission, strategic goals
, but also metrics for progressand also accountability who's
responsible for what?
So we're making a lot ofprogress.
(13:25):
We are training our faculty, weare developing policies to also
put a framework for an ethicaluse of AI by our students, by
our faculty and staff, and we'rereally changing the culture.
We're becoming a leader in AIbecause of that intentionality.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
But I'm sure, as big a university as you are, there
are some roadblocks, not just interms of actual logistics but I
assume in the theorem.
Our people think this is a badidea, Absolutely.
We face that as well in ourschool, where a lot of people
(14:09):
say that AI should not be.
It reduces the criticalthinking of students and in our
school a lot of professors saythat doctors need to think
critically and AI diminishescredibility.
Considering your educationalbackground and you studied this
in your research technology doyou think that that's really
(14:30):
true?
Speaker 3 (14:32):
I don't think it's true.
Okay, actually, that's, I think, one of the biggest
misconceptions about AI.
Okay, you know, ai is a tool.
It really depends how you useit.
Right, you know, you takesimple things like this camera,
like our phones.
Some people use it to takecalls and response, maybe text.
(14:59):
Other will use it in much moreinnovative, creative ways.
Some will use it for scams.
That is what AI is a tool.
What happens is that I think theimpact is long lasting, is very
significant and evolving.
So this is our approach to thisFirst, we educate.
(15:20):
So we are having a lot oftraining and actually the team
shared with me just our use ofAI tools.
Since we started our effort, itwas the curve is like this it
goes to really very few peopleand then we started our
strategic plan and our trainingand it was off the roof.
(15:42):
So, going back to the criticalthinking, which is really
important, because we don't wantto train students who are not
able to think or learn how tolearn and adapt like we,
justifiably so.
So what we are doing is we'retraining our faculty on usage of
(16:04):
how can you use generative AIwhile not just preserving
critical thinking, actuallyenhancing critical thinking,
just to give you a very simpleexample, we actually encourage
our faculty to ask students touse AI, but use it as input, not
(16:29):
output.
So actually the exercise thathey go and write a paper is
absolutely absolute.
I mean, how long does it takeChatGPT to write a?
Speaker 1 (16:39):
paper.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
They will make it your own.
But one way we train ourfaculty is that actually, they
ask students to use ChatGPT forany topic, whether it's
appropriate for the class, butthen they take that output that
(17:02):
was given by generative AI tocriticize it critically, think
it and come up with their ownthat's what it really is it and
come up with their own right.
That's what really is okay.
Now one might argue also umwriting is is becoming a problem
because you know, and you canliterally now um go through a
(17:25):
doctoral program without writingtwo sentences.
You literally can't.
Yes, so we have to reallyrethink that.
To um in class writingexercises, um to um critical
writing, as we um, as wedescribed below before.
But I think there are many wayswe train our faculty for um,
(17:48):
using generative ai to enhancecritical thinking and, at the
end of the day, this is what wetell our faculty.
Now sometimes we talk about thetrain is leaving or the bus is
leaving.
I think this is a jet leavingand the jet will not wait for
(18:11):
the nairs and people who areopposing and resisting to change
.
So you know, if you want tojoin the right, we're going to
make a great, great seat for youfirst class seat, but we'll not
stop the jet from taking offbecause you don't want to join.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
That's a very good analogy.
What about the naysayers?
I'm sure you had professorscome and tell you this is a bad
idea, we shouldn't adopt this,etc.
How do you deal with thosestakeholders who are naysayers?
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Yeah, I think the first thing you do is really
educate them, and that doesn'twork for 100%, but really by
itself it really helps convertsome of the Nairs.
We also use incentives.
You know we're dealing with thePhDs.
They do the math, so weactually assign resources for
(19:08):
grants for people that come upto do research on how they can
use it for their courses, forenhancing critical thinking or
for enhancing their research.
That really helped a lot.
So incentives, as I said,education incentive and then
recognition Recognitions.
I go out of my way as presidentto write handwritten notes to
(19:34):
send personalized messages tothe colleagues who actually are
helping us progress in our AIstrategic plan.
I think these three have worked.
But you know what?
There will always beers rightand you have to have the wisdom
(19:55):
at one point in time the jet isleaving right, right, that is
leaving.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
I actually read once that, uh, apparently, when the
printing press became widespreadand books became relatively
common in every household, itwas said that parents used to
discourage children from goingout from reading books because
apparently it was a work of thedead.
So I mean, every time I talk tosome folks who are, you know,
(20:24):
bad-mouthing AI, I keep thinkingabout that you know another,
even more obvious calculateright.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
It's like when a calculator came, my God it was
the resistance.
This will kill our ability to domath.
You know Calculators are there,we're still curing diseases,
we're still building greatbuildings and dams and bridges
and roads, and you know we adoptand I think resistance
technology is buildings and damsand bridges and roads, and you
(20:54):
know we adopt, and I thinkresistance technology is and
this is what I always say, andI'm sure this is true for
medical students who are worriedabout AI, or even medical
doctors is you will not bereplaced by an AI system.
Okay, but you will be replacedby somebody who knows how to use
(21:15):
an AI system effectively,efficiently and ethically.
That's really the truth.
Then give you an example If Iam asking my team to standardize
a certain operation transaction, even in our day-to-day
operations, let's say I give itto person A and give it to
(21:37):
person B, person A will go andtake a few weeks to come up with
whatever is the template thatwe need to use.
Person B will go use AI as input, not output, make it ours,
criticize it and make it reallythe UNF way, and comes back in a
(21:59):
day, right, when it's time forme to promote, to acknowledge
which one you think Right.
Even though person A, who tookfour or five weeks, might be
very thoughtful, but we cannotafford not to use these tools.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
When it comes to AI, have you reached roadblocks.
When it comes to resources,it's like money.
This is costing too much.
What do you do in thatsituation?
Speaker 3 (22:30):
Yes, this is always and this is really the problem
oh, we don't have money.
And the other problem is I havein my job is people say, okay,
give us money, we'll figure outwhat to do.
It doesn't work that way.
It's like trust us.
So, kaushik, I have a principleI really do Is that resources
(22:57):
follow vision.
This is really important and Ireally hope your wonderful
students will remember thatpeople Finding the resources is
not that difficult.
I'll give you just a veryspecific example.
(23:18):
Then we go back to AI.
When I landed at UNF, we werethe most underfunded university
in the state of Florida, andthat's very simple math, right?
You take the stateappropriation, you divide it by
how many FTE students, how manystudents, and you find that
ratio that gives you yourfunding per student.
So we developed a verycompelling vision that is based
(23:43):
on strategic growth in certainareas that emphasize student
success, community engagement,research that actually is
relevant and impactful andtimely, and also our faculty and
staff success.
So we really did this.
We have measures.
In three years, we broke allthe records in terms of
(24:05):
injecting new resources from thestate.
Because they like that vision.
They really saw a vision.
People want to invest.
So when it comes to AI, thesame thing.
This is why we spend a lot oftime developing that vision to
be the best in AI, because Iknew if we have that vision,
(24:29):
bringing resources from thestate or from other things
becomes easier even for me tojustify and to bring it.
So, yes, it is costly, but notas costly as one might think.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
I think the biggest cost for AI is resistance to
change here's a question like,as you said, obviously,
resources call the bridge.
Again, considering UNF, whichis a state school, which is a
not for profit, yes, what arethe stakeholders who are
donating or giving money for therestore, for add resources to
(25:02):
you?
What are they really gettingout?
Speaker 3 (25:05):
they're getting the most precious and important
thing any region, any communityneeds.
Let me um tell you what I meanby that.
When a business in your case,hospital, our organization they
want to expand in the region orthey're exploring coming to a
(25:29):
region, what is their number onequestion?
It's not.
Are we going to have taxrebates?
That is, every region will giveyou that talent.
Are we going to have the talentand numbers and quality that we
need?
If they don't, they don'texpand and they don't move here.
(25:54):
So what we are providing ourcommunities, our state, our
country, is the most preciousresources, which is qualified
talent that can critically train, that really can use the latest
tools ethically and responsibly.
That's what is the best returnon investment.
You know, and if you look atevery single major vibrant city
(26:21):
in the US, you will always finda vibrant university in East
Speck.
What you are doing here at StJames School of Medicine for St
Vincent is a great example.
You really are creating a lotof economic impact that the
country has not seen before.
(26:42):
That's what is the recurringinvestment.
So you're not only giving greatdoctors, qualified doctors for
different hospitals, but alsoyou're employing people here.
We're here as your guests.
We are staying in a hotel.
We're consuming as your guest.
We are staying in a hotel.
We're consuming.
(27:02):
That's the economic impact thatwe give back to the
philanthropists, to the state,to the community that we are in.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
I mean as St James.
We're actually planning tostart undergraduate programs.
We already have one, polski forIntention.
That's great, and we need aplace in.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
Virginia.
That's a great return oninvestment and I'm sure the
government here is soappreciative of that effort.
Oh yes, they've been extremelysupportive.
Absolutely, because that's thereturn on investment.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
That's the effect on technology.
Yes, on human production, yes.
Now I really need to ask thisquestion.
When it comes to your own kids,yes, have you limited and and I
know you have, uh, two verysuccessful children um, but as
(28:07):
they have been growing up, haveyou limited that access to
technology at all for them,based on your expertise, or is
it just a dad?
No, you need to sit down andtalk to me.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
No, I think we really did something that our kids
hated, okay, and now theyabsolutely thank us for it.
They were not allowed to haveany smartphones before high
school.
Okay, I think that was reallyimportant.
They hated it.
(28:40):
I think that was reallyimportant.
They hated it.
All their friends, habitclassmates they used, as you
said, they're very smart andeloquent.
They used a very sound line ofreasoning to convince us that we
are the worst parents in theworld because we're not giving
(29:01):
them these smartphones.
But they have just what we callnow damn phones.
They can text and they can call, and so I think that really
helped.
Kaushik, because you're sovulnerable when you're
elementary and when you're inthe middle school you're still
shaping, and then we give them.
We bought them phones, um, butthey can lose.
(29:25):
Now they are grown, but thenthey, they, they, um were warned
that they could lose their umphone privileges under certain
conditions.
Actually, I remember we evenwrote contracts with them.
These are the rules we violate.
Violate this.
You do this.
We did it for phones, we did itfor cars.
But I think, as they grow older, more communications and
(29:52):
educations about the negativeimpact of overusing screen time
is the best way, and actually Idid a lot of research on texting
while driving Because youprobably all seen, it is one of
the worst evils of thesetechnologies and so many lives
(30:18):
were lost.
Actually, I lost a friendbecause he was texting and
driving.
So I did a lot of experimentsand a lot of research on why
people do this.
So I got into addictionbehavior and how do you fight
addictions and it's reallyinteresting a lot of governments
(30:41):
and different authorities.
The way they deal withaddictions.
For example, texting whiledriving is punishment we catch
you, hefty fine, we will catchyou, we'll revoke your driver's
license, you lose points, andwhat I found in research,
actually that is the worstpossible way to deal with it.
(31:04):
So what really does is becauseyou're not getting at the root
of addiction is people.
What do they do now?
They try to hide while textingwhen they see police and they
will use it in an awkwardposition, causing even more,
more accidents and morefatalities.
(31:25):
And what I, what I found is thatawareness and education um is
is really the way to go, andactually I did something that a
lot of people did not like butthat turned out to be effective.
In my previous job as dean, Ibrought a car that is completely
(31:45):
destroyed from someone who wasdriving and taxing.
Put it right in front of thebuilding, right?
This is what driving and taxing, and it really raised a lot of
eyebrows.
It's shocking, right, right,but made people think twice,
(32:06):
better than saying, hey, if Icatch you.
So I think there are many waysand I still believe that
awareness, education andpersistence are now really, and
something that is stillaspirational for me is lead by
example for kids, which isreally aspirational given my job
(32:29):
, but I try as much as we canbut I have to say that after
meeting Sarah, she's anincredibly impressive young
woman, but one of the thingsthat really stood out was that
all my interactions with her Ididn't see a phone that she
brought.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
I mean, I'm sure she must have brought a phone, but
at least, which is somethingthat I don't necessarily see
with deaf people anymore, isthat they're constantly on the
phone or the phone is on theirfirst man, very visible, it's a
very visible part of theirdemeanor of their themselves,
whereas with sarah thatdefinitely wasn't the case thank
(33:06):
you, she still uses it, I haveto admit, but, uh, but, but I
think, um, um, that's where Ithink awareness and and
education is is really important.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
And um, you know, um, I'm sure you've seen this
research now show that up to 90%of college-age students meet at
least one criterion for mentalhealth challenge.
Okay, and research show thatactually the phone is one of the
(33:37):
main factor contributing tothat.
Actually, the phone is one ofthe main factors contributing to
that Cyber bullying andisolation and lack of human
skills.
You know, it is true that we'restill dealing.
I'm sure now some of thosepeople we call them the pandemic
generations are also stillsuffering from that social
(33:59):
isolation.
But you know, technology is adouble-edged sword, right,
that's what I said.
It's a tool.
It depends how you use it.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Like everything else, so, uh, the last topic I really
want to touch upon and get pickyour brain on this is that, uh,
we talked about technology, butalong with technology comes
social media, and along withsocial media, unfortunately,
there are a lot of trends that,in my opinion, are not getting
grounded in reality.
One of them is and these are mywords is the demise of
(34:33):
expertise.
As time has gone on, I'venoticed especially this is
particularly true for youngerpeople, and I would say all
through their 20s that's what Iwould categorize it Even maybe
already 30s people seem like.
Since I have AI, since I havesocial media, since I have
TikTok, if I have an ailment, Iwill Google it, I will search it
(34:57):
.
I don't need to go to a doctor,I don't need to go to a lawyer,
I don't need to go to anaccountant, I can do all of
these things and there has beena decline in expertise or the
value of having expertise.
Now, everybody is an expert.
A classic example is you know,I hate to bring up this name,
(35:21):
but Joe Rogan, for example.
He's a podcaster and heactually clearly says that I am
not an expert on some of thetopics that I talk about, but
his viewers listen to this andsay that he said this, he did
say this, et cetera, et cetera.
What are your views on,generally speaking, the demise
of expertly?
Do you think that this is areal thing?
(35:42):
This is my observation there'snot no I.
Speaker 3 (35:45):
I think it's a phenomenon, it's there.
There's no denying.
It would be absolutely naive.
Um, but I want to go back toour earlier decision or
discussion about criticalthinking.
That's really the key.
That is really the key.
If we can teach and trainstudents it doesn't matter which
(36:06):
field on how to think ratherthan what to think, if we can
really teach them how to learn,not how to memorize, that's
where it's really important.
These are tools and you knowwhat?
In many instances they wereproven wrong and also these
(36:31):
tools inherit the biases ofpeople who program them.
So that's why the criticalthinking is really important, is
really important.
And actually I really believethat working with the new
generation, trying to explain tothem, trying to understand you
know, we're even thinking aboutbachelor degree in these
(36:58):
influencers, social mediainfluencers If it is done and
done correctly, it is aprofession.
It really is a profession andit can be.
And I really believe we have tofundamentally rethink the way we
teach and the way we assesslearning, and this is not just
(37:20):
higher education.
It has to start from earlylearning.
When I say early learning isfrom birth to five, and then
from K to 12, and then highereducation.
When you think about it, it'strue for any university.
It's really interesting.
(37:40):
You go to a classroom yeah,what do you usually see?
Chairs, seats, big screen.
If I ask you to go and see aclassroom from the 18th century,
it looks exactly the same.
Maybe they did not haveprojectors but they have
blackboard and chalk, but it'salways the same.
(38:02):
Maybe they did not haveprojectors but they have that
board and chat, but it's alwaysthe same principle.
I really think it's time nowand if we don't do it, it might
be too late to fundamentallyrethink education Now.
The idea of giving a paper towrite, a report to write to
students and expect them tocritically think it's over.
(38:27):
We will be training ageneration of people who cannot
think, who literally are sodependent on Google and AI that
(38:49):
they believe what they seewithout critically criticizing
and thinking it through.
So it's not easy what I amtalking about, but we have to
start.
We really have to start what Iam talking about, but we have to
start.
We really have to start.
At UNF, we are nowinvestigating and we're working
with the federal government tobecome a true hub of excellence
(39:12):
on early learning.
Okay, because we believe thatearly learning is so important.
When you say early learningit's pre-Kindergarten, right,
yeah, important.
When you say early learning ispre-kindergarten, right there,
you know?
Yeah.
So research show that if youteach, start educating them at
their level for pre-earning um,their chances to go to high
(39:33):
school increase significantly,to go to college significantly,
actually.
Even um.
The average salary when theygraduate increases significantly
.
And if you don't start early,you will lose a big chunk and
portion of students who willreach third grade without being
(39:56):
able to read at the grade level.
And let me tell you a veryshocking fact is that many
states in the us they look atthird grade reading scores to
plan how much space in jailsthey need.
Oh, wow, yes, this is how.
(40:16):
That's why I said we reallyneed to start rethinking
everything earlier on.
And those course from K to 12and higher education.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
So, in the interim, while we are as all educational
institutions, small and large,are going through this flux, yes
, from a business standpoint,and I know that this is an issue
of a lot of young people justdon't move to college because
they really think the collegehas no bed.
Um, this was about a year, year, year and a half ago.
(40:48):
Uh, I remember I was giving alecture at my graduate school in
in chicago and I was talking toone of the undergrad students
and I was a guest of the mainlecturer and we were talking and
she had said that you know, I'mgoing to be very honest.
I think I'm just here because Ineed the attendance and I need
(41:11):
the grade.
I think I know a lot more thanthis course has to offer.
And you know, and obviouslythere were a series of questions
that I asked the student andobviously she didn't know about
it more, right?
Yes, and it was really about.
(41:31):
It was a class on social media.
I asked a very simple questionwhat is the algorithm for going
viral?
And if you cannot tell me thatyou don't know what you're doing
, except that, and obviously shedidn't have an answer, but she
said oh, I know TikTok, I knowthis.
I know that whatever, but thisis the general trend of the
(41:53):
youngsters now and I'm notparticularly youngsters.
I definitely think it is smart,but this is a pervasive view.
It is that it is smart, butthis is a pervasive view.
Yeah, how does a university orany educational institute feel
Truly?
Speaker 3 (42:08):
comment.
That's a great, great questionand it's really one million
questions, and that again willseparate the winners from the
losers, because it's a fact.
The value of college is beingrethought, it's being questioned
and we see that, you know, theMark Zuckerberg syndrome is
(42:31):
still there.
He didn't finish this and he'sa billionaire, but it is there
and I think students have todream.
Now this is where I reallybelieve rethinking the way,
which is really important.
That student somehow was notcompletely wrong because they
(42:55):
probably did not know thealgorithm.
But guess what?
On a push of a button, someoneeither chat GBD or Google will
give them the algorithm.
But guess what?
On a push of a button, someoneeither chat GPT or Google will
give them the answer.
So for us as educators to sitthere and waste their time for
two hours I call it death byPowerPoint.
Killing them by PowerPoint it'snot the way to go.
(43:18):
It really is not.
There's many ways where theycan do that outside the
classroom and then the criticalthinking, the discussion, the
guest lecture becomes in theclassroom.
That's really important.
Another thing for highereducation again, I always I'm a
data person.
I always go to the research.
What does the research say?
(43:39):
I always go to the research.
What does the research say?
For many, many years now,research has shown that college
degree will give you a certainamount of dollars, depending on
the studies, compared tosomebody who did not go through.
Now research is changing.
They said that college degreeis necessary but no longer
(44:05):
sufficient.
It's like okay.
So what do we do?
We have to augment a collegedegree.
We have to supplement it withmicro-credentials with now, the
new generation call it batchescertificates.
With now, the new generationcall it batches certificates
(44:26):
that actually tackle certainspecific skills that employers
are looking for, a certain, youknow, the medical field, certain
area that are very specific,that are not covered by the
typical curriculum.
So that combination is thewinning combination.
Also, another way of doing thisis and she knows interesting,
(44:47):
because I was meeting with mycabinet and I gave them
instructions to really work onthis.
And coming back to us Again,the bachelor degree with very
strict curriculum.
I think it's think of the past.
Now we have to think stackedcredentials.
(45:11):
What are stacked credentials?
We take a master's degree, forexample.
We will divide it in differentsmall certificates.
Gosh, you have some doubts?
That's fine, come to us, take afew courses.
You still have a degree becauseit's a certificate.
If you want to stop there, fine, you want another one.
(45:32):
You made progress With thethird one.
You'll get the master's.
That's what is the stack.
Micro credential that's thefuture.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
That's awesome.
It's almost like you know putit in terms of what our viewers
will understand a Minecraft ofdegrees of degrees.
Speaker 3 (45:53):
That's the future, that's really the future and
that's what I think we'reheading.
But the typical traditionalcollege degree, they will come
very rigid.
I think experiential learningis really important.
I know you're working reallyhard with that, working with
hospitals.
(46:13):
We made a commitment at UNFthat starting next fall, every
student will have at least oneinternship, if not more, more,
during their study.
Will commit it to that theycannot.
They cannot graduate if theydon't have that.
That's all are similar.
Yes, uh, 93 of students withthat experiential learning will
(46:34):
have a job at graduation shortlyafter with competitive salary.
That's the number one factorcontributing to their success.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
Well, thank you so much for your time.
Dr Moise Lemire, thank you.
We appreciate all the insights.
I mean we've gotten so much outof this conversation,
especially as it pertains to StJames and its operations in St
Vincent.
Speaker 3 (46:58):
Thank you, thank you, koshk, and let me conclude by
thanking you and your facultystaff and students for the
hospitality.
Dr Alia, my wife, she's a smartone in the family.
We've been really impressedwith the infrastructure, with
the faculty, with the students,with the leadership on the
(47:19):
mindset of openness, the mindsetof always striving for
excellence and looking for waysto improve, and we are just very
impressed with what we've seenand I can tell you the future of
St James is even better thanthis great present.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
Thank you so much, dr Limayam, for giving us these
wonderful insights.
It's safe to say that highereducation typically moves at a
glacial pace, whereas you, withyour leadership at the helm of
UNF, is really changing the normfor that, and you have been a
true inspiration to us.
I hope our viewers have been asinspired as I have, and if you
(47:59):
really enjoyed the contents ofthis podcast, please do not
forget to like, follow andsubscribe to our podcast,
download it from any of yourfavorite podcast platforms, such
as Spotify or Google, andremember there is no shortcut to
becoming an MD.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
Thank you so much for tuning into our show.
We hope you enjoyed anotherepisode of Med School Minutes.
If you like our content, pleasefollow us and receive
notification when a new show isposted.
This podcast is brought to youby St James School of Medicine.
For a video version of thispodcast, please check us out on
sjsmorg slash video.
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Med
School Minutes podcast, where wediscuss what it takes to attend
and successfully complete amedical program.
This show is brought to you bySt James School of Medicine.
Here is your host, kaushik Guha.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to another episode of Med School Minutes.
Today we're filming from thesunny shores of St Vincent, and
our very special guest is DrMoez Limayem.
He is the president ofUniversity of North Florida and
we're going to talk to him andpick his brain a little bit
about the future of highereducation, especially while
we're in the midst of this AIand information revolution that
(00:42):
is going on.
So, without further ado, let'swelcome dr limayan.
All right, dr uh moines limayan.
Thank you so much for joiningus today in beautiful sunny
saint vincent.
Uh, I hope you're enjoying yourstay with us thank you.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Thank you so much for having me.
It's been just a wonderful stay, uh, just a a great time
meeting your wonderful students,your amazing faculty and and
the administration.
It has been really a joy, thankyou.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Well, thank you so much for the compliment.
You know, why don't we justdive right into it and give us a
little bit about yourbackground, how you came to the
United States and how you endedup as the president, which is,
in lay speak, the CEO?
(01:29):
What a CEO of a corporation isa president of an educational
institution?
Speaker 3 (01:36):
So why don't you give us Thank you?
I'll try to give you at leastthe elevator pitch and not bore
you with a lot of details.
So I'm originally from Tunisia,born to just great parents.
My mother was just a lovingmother and completely illiterate
, but one of the smartest peopleI've ever met, and my father
(01:57):
was an educator.
He was an elementary schoolteacher, then was assigned to be
the principal of elementaryschool in a very poor city in
the east of Tunisia, and Iremember very well when I was
(02:18):
probably three, four years old,of course there was no
electricity.
He will take the only oil lampthat we have at our disposal at
home to go and use it to givepro bono tutoring for the
students so that he can preparethem for a very difficult
(02:39):
national exam that will allowthem at a very young age to
either go to high school or stopand do something else.
So the passing rate is lessthan 30 percent and because of
his dedication to his studentshe reached a passing rate of 100
percent.
Yeah, and I was, I rememberalso vividly asking the question
(03:00):
that why do you take the onlyoil lamp we have?
And and you leave us with that,with the candles?
And he said you know, son,these students need it more than
we do they.
They need it so that we canchange their lives and they
change the lives of theirfamilies and become great
citizen.
And so what he was reallytalking to me about that very
(03:22):
young age is the value ofeducation in transforming lives
and also student success andcommitment to students, and so I
was born with that.
At home it's a family affair.
If you want, then fast forward.
I went to the Institut Supérieurde Gestion, which is a premier
(03:45):
school of business in Tunis, thecapital.
The very first day, the Deanand the orientation said I have
some good news and some bad news.
Okay, what is the good news?
The good news is that they havea scholarship for students to
go to the US, fully full ride,airplane, tuition fees, books,
(04:08):
everything.
It was like really a dream cometrue.
It was like, wow, this is great.
What's the bad news?
The bad news is I wonscholarship and bought 3,500
students, wow.
So I really made it as a goalto get that scholarship.
Luckily, I did get it and wentto University of Minnesota.
I did my MBA, phd Okay, went to.
(04:31):
Then my first job was in CanadaOkay, quebec.
Met my beautiful wife, dr Alia.
Then we moved to Hong Kong.
Okay, a few years in Hong Kong,then Switzerland, and then from
Switzerland back to the US viathe University of Arkansas, the
University of South Florida, asdean and since 2022, I've been
(04:55):
the president of this greatuniversity, the University of
North Florida.
So it's a really long journey.
But what is really important,for me at least, is that I went
through all the ranks foracademia.
I started as as a teachingassistant, research assistant,
then graduated, became assistantprofessor, then associate
(05:17):
professor, then department chair, then full professor, associate
dean, dean, vice president andnow president.
Oh well, that's quite a journey.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Uh, so you mentioned that you did your phd, or did
your mba and then phd.
What did you do?
What was the special?
Speaker 3 (05:34):
yeah, my specialization has always been
that intersection betweentechnology and business.
Okay, and how do we usetechnology for better business,
for better decision making?
My dissertation one was how dowe use technology for better
group decision making?
Because, as I'm sure you know,kashik um, group think is a
(05:55):
reality, and and groups um.
There's a saying that saysnothing gets accomplished by any
group unless um it's.
It consists of three peopleOkay, one is absence and the
other one is not there.
So that's how things get done.
So I designed and built asystem that actually really
(06:18):
helped people make betterdecisions as a team Okay,
decision as a team.
And then, of course, myresearch evolved to study newer
technology, like electroniccommerce, then addictions to
texting and to using thesewonderful devices we all have,
(06:43):
and now, of course, artificialintelligence is something that
I'm very passionate about andstudying a lot, right.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
So, just so people understand what a president does
, can you describe what yourday-to-day would be like?
Speaker 3 (06:59):
So I wake up around noon, have my breakfast then
play some video games, and thenit's time to eat, but in reality
it's 24-7, 365.
The University of North Floridais the backbone of Northeast
(07:22):
Florida.
We have 17,000 students, wehave around more than 3,000,
4,000 employees, we have our ownpolice, we have our own city,
if you want.
So things happen and you reallyhave to be alert and you have
to be available.
Even you know Florida is knownfor hurricanes, so even during
(07:43):
hurricanes they give me asatellite phone so I'm always
reachable.
So the best analogy, kaushik,is.
Think of a university presidentas a CEO of a company that
really hopefully puts a greatleadership team with to help
them do their job, puts a greatleadership team with to help
them do their job, but also isresponsible for rallying the
(08:08):
group behind a very compelling,attractive vision for the
university, some strategic goalsand my role.
I see it as bringing resourcesfrom the state and from
philanthropists and fromentrepreneurial activities.
Hire good people, removeobstacles and get out of their
ways.
That's very well put.
(08:29):
I always tell my team, mycabinet I'm hiring you to tell
me what to do.
If you find me telling you whatto do, there is a problem.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Yeah, no, that's a very fair point.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
So most of the decisions we make as a cabinet,
as a team, in our transparencyand communication is the key.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Okay, wow.
So now, considering yourbackground, I think University
of North Florida is very blessedto have a person with your
background.
I was just talking earlier toDr Alia about how, within
academics, it seems verydifficult to talk about change,
(09:09):
and everybody knows thatacademic change happens at a
glacial base oh, absolutely.
However, it seems like we arein the middle of an information
revolution with the app?
How do you see that impactingeducation in general and what
(09:30):
steps is UNF actually taking toposition itself and prepare
itself for this uncertainty?
Speaker 3 (09:41):
that we're going to face in the next couple of years
?
That's a great question, kashik.
You know it's important todevelop a vision and a plan, but
we all know that culture willhave any strategic plan, any
vision, any mission forbreakfast, anytime.
So that's why we work a lot onchanging the culture from a
(10:01):
culture of complacency to aculture of innovation, of
empowerment, of transparency, ofinnovation, of empowering, of
transparency, of recognitions ofexcellence.
So we work a lot on thatculture and you're absolutely
right.
Now, like healthcare, like otherindustry, higher education is
an industry that is in absolutechange, at the speed that we
(10:27):
don't even comprehend, andartificial intelligence is a
great example.
It's changing everything we do.
It's changing how we teach, howwe hire, how do we operate, how
do we manage, how we assesslearning, manage how we assess
(10:49):
learning.
So I think, to answer yourquestion, koshy, my view is that
we're going to see winners andlosers in higher educations.
The winners, who really embracethis change and this technology
and be more proactive and bethe learning organization, if
you want, and the losers werebusiness ease, as usual.
And even you've seen, you know,with the simple generative AI
(11:11):
systems, there are universitieswho are forbidding students from
using it.
Yes, I know, yes, which isreally interesting, right, and
guess what?
It doesn't matter what theuniversity does, students do use
it.
So what are we doing?
And I think I presented ourapproach to several thousand
(11:32):
academic leaders in San Diego ina conference a couple of months
ago and it was well received.
So, first of all, we made apromise to our stakeholders,
internally and externally, thatwe will be a leader in ai right,
even though we're making theairplane as we're flying it, but
we will be a leader.
(11:53):
So what does that mean?
Means you have to beintentional.
So I constituted, I formed um,an AI council that has really
good representations of facultyand staff and students,
co-chaired by our CIO and ourDean of Engineering, and I gave
them very simple but yetcomplicated and complex tasks to
(12:20):
develop a plan for UNF to be aleader worldwide in use of AI
for learning, use of AI tostrengthen our research use of
AI.
To also be the best-rununiversity in terms of
(12:43):
operational excellence using AI,and also to be the best in
serving our community and theirAI needs.
So this is very ambitious.
And let me tell you, when youempower people and you really
let them be innovative, creative, they came up with just the
most compelling strategic plan.
(13:05):
Actually, it's available.
You can just Google UNF AIstrategic plan.
You will see very specificvision, mission, strategic goals
, but also metrics for progressand also accountability who's
responsible for what?
So we're making a lot ofprogress.
(13:25):
We are training our faculty, weare developing policies to also
put a framework for an ethicaluse of AI by our students, by
our faculty and staff, and we'rereally changing the culture.
We're becoming a leader in AIbecause of that intentionality.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
But I'm sure, as big a university as you are, there
are some roadblocks, not just interms of actual logistics but I
assume in the theorem.
Our people think this is a badidea, Absolutely.
We face that as well in ourschool, where a lot of people
(14:09):
say that AI should not be.
It reduces the criticalthinking of students and in our
school a lot of professors saythat doctors need to think
critically and AI diminishescredibility.
Considering your educationalbackground and you studied this
in your research technology doyou think that that's really
(14:30):
true?
Speaker 3 (14:32):
I don't think it's true.
Okay, actually, that's, I think, one of the biggest
misconceptions about AI.
Okay, you know, ai is a tool.
It really depends how you useit.
Right, you know, you takesimple things like this camera,
like our phones.
Some people use it to takecalls and response, maybe text.
(14:59):
Other will use it in much moreinnovative, creative ways.
Some will use it for scams.
That is what AI is a tool.
What happens is that I think theimpact is long lasting, is very
significant and evolving.
So this is our approach to thisFirst, we educate.
(15:20):
So we are having a lot oftraining and actually the team
shared with me just our use ofAI tools.
Since we started our effort, itwas the curve is like this it
goes to really very few peopleand then we started our
strategic plan and our trainingand it was off the roof.
(15:42):
So, going back to the criticalthinking, which is really
important, because we don't wantto train students who are not
able to think or learn how tolearn and adapt like we,
justifiably so.
So what we are doing is we'retraining our faculty on usage of
(16:04):
how can you use generative AIwhile not just preserving
critical thinking, actuallyenhancing critical thinking,
just to give you a very simpleexample, we actually encourage
our faculty to ask students touse AI, but use it as input, not
(16:29):
output.
So actually the exercise thathey go and write a paper is
absolutely absolute.
I mean, how long does it takeChatGPT to write a?
Speaker 1 (16:39):
paper.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
They will make it your own.
But one way we train ourfaculty is that actually, they
ask students to use ChatGPT forany topic, whether it's
appropriate for the class, butthen they take that output that
(17:02):
was given by generative AI tocriticize it critically, think
it and come up with their ownthat's what it really is it and
come up with their own right.
That's what really is okay.
Now one might argue also umwriting is is becoming a problem
because you know, and you canliterally now um go through a
(17:25):
doctoral program without writingtwo sentences.
You literally can't.
Yes, so we have to reallyrethink that.
To um in class writingexercises, um to um critical
writing, as we um, as wedescribed below before.
But I think there are many wayswe train our faculty for um,
(17:48):
using generative ai to enhancecritical thinking and, at the
end of the day, this is what wetell our faculty.
Now sometimes we talk about thetrain is leaving or the bus is
leaving.
I think this is a jet leavingand the jet will not wait for
(18:11):
the nairs and people who areopposing and resisting to change
.
So you know, if you want tojoin the right, we're going to
make a great, great seat for youfirst class seat, but we'll not
stop the jet from taking offbecause you don't want to join.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
That's a very good analogy.
What about the naysayers?
I'm sure you had professorscome and tell you this is a bad
idea, we shouldn't adopt this,etc.
How do you deal with thosestakeholders who are naysayers?
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Yeah, I think the first thing you do is really
educate them, and that doesn'twork for 100%, but really by
itself it really helps convertsome of the Nairs.
We also use incentives.
You know we're dealing with thePhDs.
They do the math, so weactually assign resources for
(19:08):
grants for people that come upto do research on how they can
use it for their courses, forenhancing critical thinking or
for enhancing their research.
That really helped a lot.
So incentives, as I said,education incentive and then
recognition Recognitions.
I go out of my way as presidentto write handwritten notes to
(19:34):
send personalized messages tothe colleagues who actually are
helping us progress in our AIstrategic plan.
I think these three have worked.
But you know what?
There will always beers rightand you have to have the wisdom
(19:55):
at one point in time the jet isleaving right, right, that is
leaving.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
I actually read once that, uh, apparently, when the
printing press became widespreadand books became relatively
common in every household, itwas said that parents used to
discourage children from goingout from reading books because
apparently it was a work of thedead.
So I mean, every time I talk tosome folks who are, you know,
(20:24):
bad-mouthing AI, I keep thinkingabout that you know another,
even more obvious calculateright.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
It's like when a calculator came, my God it was
the resistance.
This will kill our ability to domath.
You know Calculators are there,we're still curing diseases,
we're still building greatbuildings and dams and bridges
and roads, and you know we adoptand I think resistance
technology is buildings and damsand bridges and roads, and you
(20:54):
know we adopt, and I thinkresistance technology is and
this is what I always say, andI'm sure this is true for
medical students who are worriedabout AI, or even medical
doctors is you will not bereplaced by an AI system.
Okay, but you will be replacedby somebody who knows how to use
(21:15):
an AI system effectively,efficiently and ethically.
That's really the truth.
Then give you an example If Iam asking my team to standardize
a certain operation transaction, even in our day-to-day
operations, let's say I give itto person A and give it to
(21:37):
person B, person A will go andtake a few weeks to come up with
whatever is the template thatwe need to use.
Person B will go use AI as input, not output, make it ours,
criticize it and make it reallythe UNF way, and comes back in a
(21:59):
day, right, when it's time forme to promote, to acknowledge
which one you think Right.
Even though person A, who tookfour or five weeks, might be
very thoughtful, but we cannotafford not to use these tools.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
When it comes to AI, have you reached roadblocks.
When it comes to resources,it's like money.
This is costing too much.
What do you do in thatsituation?
Speaker 3 (22:30):
Yes, this is always and this is really the problem
oh, we don't have money.
And the other problem is I havein my job is people say, okay,
give us money, we'll figure outwhat to do.
It doesn't work that way.
It's like trust us.
So, kaushik, I have a principleI really do Is that resources
(22:57):
follow vision.
This is really important and Ireally hope your wonderful
students will remember thatpeople Finding the resources is
not that difficult.
I'll give you just a veryspecific example.
(23:18):
Then we go back to AI.
When I landed at UNF, we werethe most underfunded university
in the state of Florida, andthat's very simple math, right?
You take the stateappropriation, you divide it by
how many FTE students, how manystudents, and you find that
ratio that gives you yourfunding per student.
So we developed a verycompelling vision that is based
(23:43):
on strategic growth in certainareas that emphasize student
success, community engagement,research that actually is
relevant and impactful andtimely, and also our faculty and
staff success.
So we really did this.
We have measures.
In three years, we broke allthe records in terms of
(24:05):
injecting new resources from thestate.
Because they like that vision.
They really saw a vision.
People want to invest.
So when it comes to AI, thesame thing.
This is why we spend a lot oftime developing that vision to
be the best in AI, because Iknew if we have that vision,
(24:29):
bringing resources from thestate or from other things
becomes easier even for me tojustify and to bring it.
So, yes, it is costly, but notas costly as one might think.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
I think the biggest cost for AI is resistance to
change here's a question like,as you said, obviously,
resources call the bridge.
Again, considering UNF, whichis a state school, which is a
not for profit, yes, what arethe stakeholders who are
donating or giving money for therestore, for add resources to
(25:02):
you?
What are they really gettingout?
Speaker 3 (25:05):
they're getting the most precious and important
thing any region, any communityneeds.
Let me um tell you what I meanby that.
When a business in your case,hospital, our organization they
want to expand in the region orthey're exploring coming to a
(25:29):
region, what is their number onequestion?
It's not.
Are we going to have taxrebates?
That is, every region will giveyou that talent.
Are we going to have the talentand numbers and quality that we
need?
If they don't, they don'texpand and they don't move here.
(25:54):
So what we are providing ourcommunities, our state, our
country, is the most preciousresources, which is qualified
talent that can critically train, that really can use the latest
tools ethically and responsibly.
That's what is the best returnon investment.
You know, and if you look atevery single major vibrant city
(26:21):
in the US, you will always finda vibrant university in East
Speck.
What you are doing here at StJames School of Medicine for St
Vincent is a great example.
You really are creating a lotof economic impact that the
country has not seen before.
(26:42):
That's what is the recurringinvestment.
So you're not only giving greatdoctors, qualified doctors for
different hospitals, but alsoyou're employing people here.
We're here as your guests.
We are staying in a hotel.
We're consuming as your guest.
We are staying in a hotel.
We're consuming.
(27:02):
That's the economic impact thatwe give back to the
philanthropists, to the state,to the community that we are in.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
I mean as St James.
We're actually planning tostart undergraduate programs.
We already have one, polski forIntention.
That's great, and we need aplace in.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
Virginia.
That's a great return oninvestment and I'm sure the
government here is soappreciative of that effort.
Oh yes, they've been extremelysupportive.
Absolutely, because that's thereturn on investment.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
That's the effect on technology.
Yes, on human production, yes.
Now I really need to ask thisquestion.
When it comes to your own kids,yes, have you limited and and I
know you have, uh, two verysuccessful children um, but as
(28:07):
they have been growing up, haveyou limited that access to
technology at all for them,based on your expertise, or is
it just a dad?
No, you need to sit down andtalk to me.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
No, I think we really did something that our kids
hated, okay, and now theyabsolutely thank us for it.
They were not allowed to haveany smartphones before high
school.
Okay, I think that was reallyimportant.
They hated it.
(28:40):
I think that was reallyimportant.
They hated it.
All their friends, habitclassmates they used, as you
said, they're very smart andeloquent.
They used a very sound line ofreasoning to convince us that we
are the worst parents in theworld because we're not giving
(29:01):
them these smartphones.
But they have just what we callnow damn phones.
They can text and they can call, and so I think that really
helped.
Kaushik, because you're sovulnerable when you're
elementary and when you're inthe middle school you're still
shaping, and then we give them.
We bought them phones, um, butthey can lose.
(29:25):
Now they are grown, but thenthey, they, they, um were warned
that they could lose their umphone privileges under certain
conditions.
Actually, I remember we evenwrote contracts with them.
These are the rules we violate.
Violate this.
You do this.
We did it for phones, we did itfor cars.
But I think, as they grow older, more communications and
(29:52):
educations about the negativeimpact of overusing screen time
is the best way, and actually Idid a lot of research on texting
while driving Because youprobably all seen, it is one of
the worst evils of thesetechnologies and so many lives
(30:18):
were lost.
Actually, I lost a friendbecause he was texting and
driving.
So I did a lot of experimentsand a lot of research on why
people do this.
So I got into addictionbehavior and how do you fight
addictions and it's reallyinteresting a lot of governments
(30:41):
and different authorities.
The way they deal withaddictions.
For example, texting whiledriving is punishment we catch
you, hefty fine, we will catchyou, we'll revoke your driver's
license, you lose points, andwhat I found in research,
actually that is the worstpossible way to deal with it.
(31:04):
So what really does is becauseyou're not getting at the root
of addiction is people.
What do they do now?
They try to hide while textingwhen they see police and they
will use it in an awkwardposition, causing even more,
more accidents and morefatalities.
(31:25):
And what I, what I found is thatawareness and education um is
is really the way to go, andactually I did something that a
lot of people did not like butthat turned out to be effective.
In my previous job as dean, Ibrought a car that is completely
(31:45):
destroyed from someone who wasdriving and taxing.
Put it right in front of thebuilding, right?
This is what driving and taxing, and it really raised a lot of
eyebrows.
It's shocking, right, right,but made people think twice,
(32:06):
better than saying, hey, if Icatch you.
So I think there are many waysand I still believe that
awareness, education andpersistence are now really, and
something that is stillaspirational for me is lead by
example for kids, which isreally aspirational given my job
(32:29):
, but I try as much as we canbut I have to say that after
meeting Sarah, she's anincredibly impressive young
woman, but one of the thingsthat really stood out was that
all my interactions with her Ididn't see a phone that she
brought.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
I mean, I'm sure she must have brought a phone, but
at least, which is somethingthat I don't necessarily see
with deaf people anymore, isthat they're constantly on the
phone or the phone is on theirfirst man, very visible, it's a
very visible part of theirdemeanor of their themselves,
whereas with sarah thatdefinitely wasn't the case thank
(33:06):
you, she still uses it, I haveto admit, but, uh, but, but I
think, um, um, that's where Ithink awareness and and
education is is really important.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
And um, you know, um, I'm sure you've seen this
research now show that up to 90%of college-age students meet at
least one criterion for mentalhealth challenge.
Okay, and research show thatactually the phone is one of the
(33:37):
main factor contributing tothat.
Actually, the phone is one ofthe main factors contributing to
that Cyber bullying andisolation and lack of human
skills.
You know, it is true that we'restill dealing.
I'm sure now some of thosepeople we call them the pandemic
generations are also stillsuffering from that social
(33:59):
isolation.
But you know, technology is adouble-edged sword, right,
that's what I said.
It's a tool.
It depends how you use it.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Like everything else, so, uh, the last topic I really
want to touch upon and get pickyour brain on this is that, uh,
we talked about technology, butalong with technology comes
social media, and along withsocial media, unfortunately,
there are a lot of trends that,in my opinion, are not getting
grounded in reality.
One of them is and these are mywords is the demise of
(34:33):
expertise.
As time has gone on, I'venoticed especially this is
particularly true for youngerpeople, and I would say all
through their 20s that's what Iwould categorize it Even maybe
already 30s people seem like.
Since I have AI, since I havesocial media, since I have
TikTok, if I have an ailment, Iwill Google it, I will search it
(34:57):
.
I don't need to go to a doctor,I don't need to go to a lawyer,
I don't need to go to anaccountant, I can do all of
these things and there has beena decline in expertise or the
value of having expertise.
Now, everybody is an expert.
A classic example is you know,I hate to bring up this name,
(35:21):
but Joe Rogan, for example.
He's a podcaster and heactually clearly says that I am
not an expert on some of thetopics that I talk about, but
his viewers listen to this andsay that he said this, he did
say this, et cetera, et cetera.
What are your views on,generally speaking, the demise
of expertly?
Do you think that this is areal thing?
(35:42):
This is my observation there'snot no I.
Speaker 3 (35:45):
I think it's a phenomenon, it's there.
There's no denying.
It would be absolutely naive.
Um, but I want to go back toour earlier decision or
discussion about criticalthinking.
That's really the key.
That is really the key.
If we can teach and trainstudents it doesn't matter which
(36:06):
field on how to think ratherthan what to think, if we can
really teach them how to learn,not how to memorize, that's
where it's really important.
These are tools and you knowwhat?
In many instances they wereproven wrong and also these
(36:31):
tools inherit the biases ofpeople who program them.
So that's why the criticalthinking is really important, is
really important.
And actually I really believethat working with the new
generation, trying to explain tothem, trying to understand you
know, we're even thinking aboutbachelor degree in these
(36:58):
influencers, social mediainfluencers If it is done and
done correctly, it is aprofession.
It really is a profession andit can be.
And I really believe we have tofundamentally rethink the way we
teach and the way we assesslearning, and this is not just
(37:20):
higher education.
It has to start from earlylearning.
When I say early learning isfrom birth to five, and then
from K to 12, and then highereducation.
When you think about it, it'strue for any university.
It's really interesting.
(37:40):
You go to a classroom yeah,what do you usually see?
Chairs, seats, big screen.
If I ask you to go and see aclassroom from the 18th century,
it looks exactly the same.
Maybe they did not haveprojectors but they have
blackboard and chalk, but it'salways the same.
(38:02):
Maybe they did not haveprojectors but they have that
board and chat, but it's alwaysthe same principle.
I really think it's time nowand if we don't do it, it might
be too late to fundamentallyrethink education Now.
The idea of giving a paper towrite, a report to write to
students and expect them tocritically think it's over.
(38:27):
We will be training ageneration of people who cannot
think, who literally are sodependent on Google and AI that
(38:49):
they believe what they seewithout critically criticizing
and thinking it through.
So it's not easy what I amtalking about, but we have to
start.
We really have to start what Iam talking about, but we have to
start.
We really have to start.
At UNF, we are nowinvestigating and we're working
with the federal government tobecome a true hub of excellence
(39:12):
on early learning.
Okay, because we believe thatearly learning is so important.
When you say early learningit's pre-Kindergarten, right,
yeah, important.
When you say early learning ispre-kindergarten, right there,
you know?
Yeah.
So research show that if youteach, start educating them at
their level for pre-earning um,their chances to go to high
(39:33):
school increase significantly,to go to college significantly,
actually.
Even um.
The average salary when theygraduate increases significantly
.
And if you don't start early,you will lose a big chunk and
portion of students who willreach third grade without being
(39:56):
able to read at the grade level.
And let me tell you a veryshocking fact is that many
states in the us they look atthird grade reading scores to
plan how much space in jailsthey need.
Oh, wow, yes, this is how.
(40:16):
That's why I said we reallyneed to start rethinking
everything earlier on.
And those course from K to 12and higher education.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
So, in the interim, while we are as all educational
institutions, small and large,are going through this flux, yes
, from a business standpoint,and I know that this is an issue
of a lot of young people justdon't move to college because
they really think the collegehas no bed.
Um, this was about a year, year, year and a half ago.
(40:48):
Uh, I remember I was giving alecture at my graduate school in
in chicago and I was talking toone of the undergrad students
and I was a guest of the mainlecturer and we were talking and
she had said that you know, I'mgoing to be very honest.
I think I'm just here because Ineed the attendance and I need
(41:11):
the grade.
I think I know a lot more thanthis course has to offer.
And you know, and obviouslythere were a series of questions
that I asked the student andobviously she didn't know about
it more, right?
Yes, and it was really about.
(41:31):
It was a class on social media.
I asked a very simple questionwhat is the algorithm for going
viral?
And if you cannot tell me thatyou don't know what you're doing
, except that, and obviously shedidn't have an answer, but she
said oh, I know TikTok, I knowthis.
I know that whatever, but thisis the general trend of the
(41:53):
youngsters now and I'm notparticularly youngsters.
I definitely think it is smart,but this is a pervasive view.
It is that it is smart, butthis is a pervasive view.
Yeah, how does a university orany educational institute feel
Truly?
Speaker 3 (42:08):
comment.
That's a great, great questionand it's really one million
questions, and that again willseparate the winners from the
losers, because it's a fact.
The value of college is beingrethought, it's being questioned
and we see that, you know, theMark Zuckerberg syndrome is
(42:31):
still there.
He didn't finish this and he'sa billionaire, but it is there
and I think students have todream.
Now this is where I reallybelieve rethinking the way,
which is really important.
That student somehow was notcompletely wrong because they
(42:55):
probably did not know thealgorithm.
But guess what?
On a push of a button, someoneeither chat GBD or Google will
give them the algorithm.
But guess what?
On a push of a button, someoneeither chat GPT or Google will
give them the answer.
So for us as educators to sitthere and waste their time for
two hours I call it death byPowerPoint.
Killing them by PowerPoint it'snot the way to go.
(43:18):
It really is not.
There's many ways where theycan do that outside the
classroom and then the criticalthinking, the discussion, the
guest lecture becomes in theclassroom.
That's really important.
Another thing for highereducation again, I always I'm a
data person.
I always go to the research.
What does the research say?
(43:39):
I always go to the research.
What does the research say?
For many, many years now,research has shown that college
degree will give you a certainamount of dollars, depending on
the studies, compared tosomebody who did not go through.
Now research is changing.
They said that college degreeis necessary but no longer
(44:05):
sufficient.
It's like okay.
So what do we do?
We have to augment a collegedegree.
We have to supplement it withmicro-credentials with now, the
new generation call it batchescertificates.
With now, the new generationcall it batches certificates
(44:26):
that actually tackle certainspecific skills that employers
are looking for, a certain, youknow, the medical field, certain
area that are very specific,that are not covered by the
typical curriculum.
So that combination is thewinning combination.
Also, another way of doing thisis and she knows interesting,
(44:47):
because I was meeting with mycabinet and I gave them
instructions to really work onthis.
And coming back to us Again,the bachelor degree with very
strict curriculum.
I think it's think of the past.
Now we have to think stackedcredentials.
(45:11):
What are stacked credentials?
We take a master's degree, forexample.
We will divide it in differentsmall certificates.
Gosh, you have some doubts?
That's fine, come to us, take afew courses.
You still have a degree becauseit's a certificate.
If you want to stop there, fine, you want another one.
(45:32):
You made progress With thethird one.
You'll get the master's.
That's what is the stack.
Micro credential that's thefuture.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
That's awesome.
It's almost like you know putit in terms of what our viewers
will understand a Minecraft ofdegrees of degrees.
Speaker 3 (45:53):
That's the future, that's really the future and
that's what I think we'reheading.
But the typical traditionalcollege degree, they will come
very rigid.
I think experiential learningis really important.
I know you're working reallyhard with that, working with
hospitals.
(46:13):
We made a commitment at UNFthat starting next fall, every
student will have at least oneinternship, if not more, more,
during their study.
Will commit it to that theycannot.
They cannot graduate if theydon't have that.
That's all are similar.
Yes, uh, 93 of students withthat experiential learning will
(46:34):
have a job at graduation shortlyafter with competitive salary.
That's the number one factorcontributing to their success.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
Well, thank you so much for your time.
Dr Moise Lemire, thank you.
We appreciate all the insights.
I mean we've gotten so much outof this conversation,
especially as it pertains to StJames and its operations in St
Vincent.
Speaker 3 (46:58):
Thank you, thank you, koshk, and let me conclude by
thanking you and your facultystaff and students for the
hospitality.
Dr Alia, my wife, she's a smartone in the family.
We've been really impressedwith the infrastructure, with
the faculty, with the students,with the leadership on the
(47:19):
mindset of openness, the mindsetof always striving for
excellence and looking for waysto improve, and we are just very
impressed with what we've seenand I can tell you the future of
St James is even better thanthis great present.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
Thank you so much, dr Limayam, for giving us these
wonderful insights.
It's safe to say that highereducation typically moves at a
glacial pace, whereas you, withyour leadership at the helm of
UNF, is really changing the normfor that, and you have been a
true inspiration to us.
I hope our viewers have been asinspired as I have, and if you
(47:59):
really enjoyed the contents ofthis podcast, please do not
forget to like, follow andsubscribe to our podcast,
download it from any of yourfavorite podcast platforms, such
as Spotify or Google, andremember there is no shortcut to
becoming an MD.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
Thank you so much for tuning into our show.
We hope you enjoyed anotherepisode of Med School Minutes.
If you like our content, pleasefollow us and receive
notification when a new show isposted.
This podcast is brought to youby St James School of Medicine.
For a video version of thispodcast, please check us out on
sjsmorg slash video.
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