December 26, 2024 • 26 mins
Discover the captivating world of travel journalism with our esteemed guest, Robin Catalano, whose impressive portfolio includes features in The New York Times and National Geographic. Journey with us as Robin recounts her serendipitous path into journalism, from a childhood love for writing, sparked by her high school English teacher, to her unexpected pivot from archaeology to journalism after a transformative internship. Robin unveils her diverse career adventures, from corporate communications to magazine editing and her passionate return to journalism for the love of in-depth, long-form storytelling. Her dedication to travel, conservation, and food and beverage narratives underscores her commitment to high-quality content and the pressing need to protect our natural world.
In this episode, Robin takes us behind the scenes of her storytelling process for Hidden Compass. She shares the intricate, two-year journey of crafting a narrative on Salem's Merchant Trade and an adventurous fossil hunt in New Brunswick with a paleontologist. Experience the resilience and revival of historic Chinatowns in Vancouver and Victoria through her eyes as she balances personal bucket lists with storytelling opportunities. Robin, embracing the role of an "uninfluencer," challenges the glossy veneer of social media to present authentic travel experiences. Tune in for her insights on working with PR professionals and her award-winning approach to bringing strong characters and honest narratives to life.
Learn more about Robin at robinwriter.com.
Read her work in the New York Times, National Geographic, Travel + Leisure, TIME, Smithsonian, Conde Nast Traveler, BBC, Robb Report, AFAR, Hemispheres, US News & World Report, Food & Wine, Bon Appetit, Fodor's, Roadtrippers, Thrillist, AAA, ROVA, Seattle Times, Albany Times Union, and more!
Connect with her on:
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/oncemoretotheshore/
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robincatalano/
Thank you for listening! Please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe to the Media in Minutes podcast here or anywhere you get your podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/media-in-minutes/id1555710662
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to Media in Minutes.
This is your host, angela Toole.
This podcast features in-depthinterviews with those who report
on the world around us.
They share everything fromtheir favorite stories to what
happened behind the lens andgive us a glimpse into their
world From our studio here atCommunications.
Redefined this is, and humancultures.
She can be found sipping ciderand plying the waters of upstate
(00:49):
New York in her inflatablekayak.
Robyn's work has appeared inthe New York Times, national
Geographic, bbc Travel andLeisure, washington Post,
smithsonian, condé Nast,traveler, rob Reports and many
more.
She was selected as the 2020Writer-in-Residence at Arrowhead
and is also a 2022 finalist inthe IFWTA Excellence in
(01:12):
Journalism Awards, and last year, robin was the winner of an
SATW Lowell Thomas Award forSustainable Tourism Reporting.
This year, she was a two-timewinner in both the SATW and ASJA
annual writing awards.
Hi Robin, how are things in NewYork?
Speaker 2 (01:31):
They are cold and snowy.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
We've got that too.
Did you get a?
Speaker 2 (01:38):
lot of snow.
We got about four inchesovernight and it's still kind of
coming down lightly right now.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Okay, Okay, that's.
That's a good amount.
So I'd love to start withyou've had such an impressive
career in journalism.
Can you tell us a bit aboutyour journey and what inspired
you to become a journalist?
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Sure, first I would say thank you very much.
That's super kind and I'm veryhappy to hear it, and I'll come
back tomorrow and have you saythat again.
Okay, good, I would say I meanmore than anything, I think I
fell into it.
I have been writing since I waseight years old and I actually
used to make my own littlemagazines.
(02:17):
Believe it or not, I still.
Yes, I was a gymnast and I usedto create magazines about my
favorite gymnasts.
That was kind of my own entreeinto the publishing world.
And I think as I got older, youknow, I developed a variety of
interests.
I kept writing, but I wasdetermined to go into
(02:39):
archaeology in university.
On my last day of high school,I was having a conversation with
my honors English teacher andhe said I would hate for you to
leave here and never write again.
And that stuck with me, and Ithink that was maybe the first
time that I thought to myselfyou know, this is not only
something that I like, but it'ssomething I'm good at, and so I
(03:02):
should think about that on aprofessional level.
So then, what happened fromthere?
Well, I did actually major inarchaeology, but also English.
Okay, I kept that going.
And then by the time I did mygrad school, I was pretty firmly
in the English literaturecreative writing camp.
I thought I would be auniversity professor at that
(03:23):
point, oh OK.
But I started working as anintern for a local publication
and that was my first journalismjob.
I did a variety of jobs in theinterim.
I've been everything.
I was a corporatecommunications manager, social
media manager, magazine editor,book editor, and I still keep a
(03:44):
foot in some of those worlds.
But I eventually came back tojournalism because I had missed
the long form storytelling.
I just felt like I was gettingthat with, you know, social
media and blogging to someextent as well.
I was doing that for a homedecor company.
So yeah, for me it just it sortof felt like a little bit of a
(04:06):
homecoming to come back tojournalism.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Yeah, and you know, long form journalism is not as
plentiful as it used to beeither, unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
No, it's not.
Yeah, it's really.
I don't want to say a dying art, because I think there are
plenty of people who would do itand do it well if given more
opportunity, right, somethingthat you know.
I guess publishers are sort ofbeholden to their advertisers
and what performs the best.
So you know they continue toproduce more of the content that
they believe performs well.
(04:37):
But I really miss, you know,those meaty stories where you
really felt transported to theplace.
It wasn't just a servicejournalism story and there's no
shade on service journalismstories.
They have their purpose as wellbut I think those really rich
stories.
We're missing a lot of thatright now in travel publishing.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Yes, absolutely.
I love those too.
So, as you mentioned travel,you specialize in travel
conservation, preservation andfood and beverage journalism.
How do you decide what topicsor stories to pursue?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
I would say I'm still a generalist in the travel
world, but the topics thatyou've mentioned, those are ones
that have really becomepersonal passions over time and
the ones that I'm maybe mostknowledgeable about.
I wouldn't say that I decidewhat to pursue so much as I
listen and then sort of home inon a little nugget of
(05:31):
information, and it could be areally obvious news peg, like
some you know, a grand openingof a major museum, or it could
be some little esoteric bit oftrivia.
But once I find it I really diginto it, like with the crazy
approach of a homicide detective, Like I just got to know what's
on the other.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
That's fabulous.
So I'm assuming the storiestake you quite a bit of time,
sometimes as well.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Anything service journalism, you know, the more
narrative stories they do takeme a while to produce, maybe too
long, even by some.
But for me that's I don't knowit's part of the process of
making sure that what I'mputting out into the world is
good and not just something thatI've dashed off.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Yes, yes, absolutely.
That's true journalism, and youmentioned conservation.
Can you talk a little bit aboutwhy this issue is so important
to you and how you approach itin your writing?
Sure?
Speaker 2 (06:30):
I think what it really boils down to is that,
you know, humans, for all thegood we have done in the world,
we've also done a tremendousamount of harm, and this is
especially when we think aboutthe natural world that could be,
you know, plastics, pollution,overhunting of a species to near
extinction, and you know we'vedone a lot of harm to cultures
(06:51):
as well, and a lot of them aremarginalized.
So I think, as a, as you know,supposedly the most intelligent
species on the planet, we're nowin a place where we need to fix
what we've wrought.
So for me, you know, I wouldn'tclaim that my approach is
solutions journalism,necessarily, and I think that
(07:14):
that term implies perhaps thateverything else is non-solutions
oriented.
But I do love stories that poseboth a question and even a
suggestion of an answer, becauseI think that's what we're
looking for as people we want toknow.
Ok, yeah, this is a bad thing.
How do we make it better?
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Yes, absolutely, and you've had the opportunity to
tell some fantastic stories.
Is there a particular articlethat stands out as especially
fulfilling or important to you?
Speaker 2 (07:44):
I think there are probably a few.
I've done a couple of piecesfor Hidden Compass which I
really love working with HiddenCompass.
They are very much in the moldof the you know the through the
merchant trade in Salem,massachusetts, and that was.
It was a challenge because itwas sort of hard to dig up the
(08:13):
information on it and find theright subjects to interview and
it took a very, very long timeto put that story together.
I think from the first bit ofresearch all the way through to
the final draft was about twoyears total, not that I was, I
would pay my bills if that's allI did Right Kind of thing.
(08:34):
I had to keep going back andadding and taking away and
reshaping, so when it wasfinally done it just felt really
good to first of all to haveachieved bringing together that
giant amount of information andkind of distilling it down to
something people couldunderstand.
And you know it's an importanttopic that doesn't get a lot of
coverage.
(08:54):
I did another piece for them aswell on fossil hunting in New
Brunswick, canada, and thatthat's the sort of thing that
appeals to the archaeologists inme.
You know it's paleontology, butbut great so I had the
opportunity to do sort of afossil ride along with the um I
believe he's the gosh I'mblanking on his name I think
(09:15):
he's like the provincialdirector of um paleontology in
New Brunswick.
Okay, so that was super cooljust to be in this place that
has this incredible history andto talk kind of shop geeky
things, talk about and thebeginning of the earth and all
of that kind of stuff.
And then I would call it onemore thing.
We have two more seconds.
(09:37):
So this year I actually was ableto tell a story that kind of
crosses politics and darktourism and this is not really a
topic that I've made foraysinto in the past, but I took a
trip to Cyprus and just kind offinding out how the invasion of
Cyprus had affected the peoplewho lived there, both Turks and
(09:59):
Greeks.
This is back in 1974.
So we're now on the 50thanniversary.
Really hearing about thestories and seeing Varosha,
which is the supposed abandonedcity, seeing how all of that
happened was so incrediblyeye-opening for me in realizing
what we're doing with tourism aswell.
Tourism doesn't always, orisn't always, a force for good.
(10:22):
I guess we should say.
So being able to tell thatstory that was really meaningful
, incorporating the voices ofpeople who remember what it was
like when the invasion happened.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Yes, wow, we will definitely, definitely link to
all of those in our show notes.
And I have to ask how do youselect your next destination and
do you typically go andexperience and then pitch
stories to editors, or how doesthat work?
Speaker 2 (10:49):
It's a little bit of a mix.
So I definitely have, you know,my own bucket list of places
that I would like to go.
So those are kind of they'realways at the top of my mind
when I think you know where do Iwant to go next.
I do get a good number ofinvitations, and sometimes it's
to a place that I hadn't reallythought about, and when I see
the invitation it then sort ofprompts this thinking process in
(11:13):
me of like, well, why didn't Ithink of going here before?
And this could be an incrediblestory.
So sometimes it's a left offield thing and it's just, it's
a whim.
Maybe You're like, oh yeah, Ithink I can tell the heck out of
that story, so I run with it.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Awesome.
So what are some of the mostsurprising things you've learned
about a culture or a location,maybe aside from what you just
mentioned a little bit ago, butduring your travels?
Speaker 2 (11:40):
I think that let's see my trip to British Columbia
last year.
I visited two Chinatowns, inVancouver and Victoria.
Victoria's is the oldest inNorth sorry, second oldest in
North America, wow.
Okay, vancouver's is the secondlargest.
So that's both after SanFrancisco.
So telling that story aboutsort of the evolution of
(12:02):
Chinatown they have, you know,as Chinatowns around the country
have, they've struggled in thelast couple of decades but
they're starting this littlerevival that really I think will
start picking up steam in thenext couple of years and turn
into something really incrediblehow the Chinese immigrants came
(12:25):
here, how they were treated,what their early lives were like
, and what it is like for themto live there now and what it
means to still have thiscommunity.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Wow, that sounds fascinating, if you could.
This might be a hard one.
If you could trade places withone of the people you've written
about, or even in the play, youknow one of the places that
you've written about for even aday, who or where would that be?
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Oh, it would probably be Matt Stimson, who is the
paleontologist that I talkedabout in New Brunswick.
I would love to have his jobfor a day.
It would be fabulous to just be, you know, looking for fossils
and collecting them, and then,you know, archiving them in the
museum.
That would be an awesome job.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Yes, that does sound great.
I used to love that, especiallyas a child One of my favorite
things as well learning aboutthe fossils and that whole area,
so it's great that you can dosome of that in your work.
So, as someone who's wonmultiple awards, which we
mentioned in the intro for yourwriting, including in
sustainable tourism tell us alittle bit more about those
(13:33):
awards and what you think makesa great story.
You know be able to.
I know you're not writing themto necessarily win the award.
What has made them that way?
Speaker 2 (13:43):
I think so, the awards themselves.
So I've won a couple of awardsfrom ASJA, the American Society
of Journalists and Authors, fromSATW, the Society of American
Travel Writers, and I was afinalist in the I'm going to get
their name wrong because it'sreally long, but I think it's
IFTWA International Food WineTravel or Food Travel Wine
(14:06):
Journalists Association Okay.
International food wine travelor food travel wine journalists
association okay.
Um, I think probably the mostcommon theme among these stories
is just that they have strongcharacters, a compelling arc, um
, some creative choices of words, um, definitely honesty and a
lack of sentimentality.
(14:27):
I try not to present anythingwith sort of like a gauzy filter
over it, because I think it'sreally important to show travel
as it is.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
And it's.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
You know, travel isn't always good and positive
and beautiful.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Right.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Something we lack, especially if we're only looking
at it on social media.
On social media, we tend to seeall of the beautiful images,
but it's around the corner.
So I think that that's kind ofwhere my stories go is talking a
little bit more about you know,maybe a little bit more in
depth and a little bit moreabout the parts of travel that
maybe are not beautiful andInstagram ready, and I don't
(15:07):
know, maybe for me that's aformula that works.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
We need that so much more in our world on everything,
not just travel.
But you're right, and we alsoset so many expectations when we
travel that it is going to belike exactly what we've seen on
social media and all perfect andwonderful, and that's not
always the case and, like yousaid, that doesn't show the
entire place Exactly.
(15:32):
Yeah, in your own words I youmentioned being an uninfluencer.
Tell us a little bit more aboutthat.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Yeah.
So I started calling myself theinfluencer a few years ago
because I have seen a lot of mypeers who are tremendously
successful with their socialmedia and I give them major
kudos for that.
But I at one point had startedfeeling like, oh, I'm really
doing something wrong here.
Why don't I have 10,000followers?
(16:02):
And you know why are people notinteracting with every single
post I put out there?
But after a while I started torealize that, you know, if we're
going to throw around the wordauthenticity which frankly, we
throw around a little too muchbut if we are going to throw
around that word, we are notbeing authentic if we only put
the best parts of life onlineand if we're so tethered to our
(16:26):
phones that we're not actuallymindful of what's happening
around us.
So I got to the point offeeling like you know what, it
is okay if I forget to post onsocial media.
It's okay if I don't post onsocial media while I am in the
destination.
I can do it after, I can do ita year after if I want to.
So, yeah, I think finally, kindof cutting that cord and
(16:51):
realizing that I did not have tobe on social media all the time
actually freed me up to be abetter storyteller, just in
articles, and you know what?
That's what I'm good at.
I'm good at stories, longerform stories.
I'm not necessarily great atInstagram reels.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
That is totally okay.
Yes, I would love to know yourthoughts on PR professionals as
well and working with us.
Do you have any pet peeves oradvice for those of us who have
story ideas for you?
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Sure, I would say I guess we can.
We can start with the negativesand then go to the positive.
Sure, okay, at Peeves there wasa trend for a while it seems
like it's petering out, and I'mvery glad for that where people
would use the word invite in thesubject line and what they were
inviting me to do would wasinterview a client of theirs oh,
(17:43):
really, a story for publication, and that's not an invite.
To save that word for an actualin-person invite, whether it's,
you know, we're meeting overcoffee or a press trip.
So I'm not big on themisleading subject lines and I
think you know I've posted quitea bit about this on LinkedIn.
(18:07):
I think you know publishing issort of in a phase right now.
It's going through a little bitof a reckoning because it's not
the landscape that it once was.
It's competing with a varietyof different outlets, with
social media growing up rightnow, and while it does, we all
(18:29):
need to be a little bit moretolerant of sort of the rules of
publishing which are basically,you know, most of our editors
don't even want to hear from usuntil after the trip has already
happened.
So when a PR person reaches outto me about a trip and they say
, oh yes, we'd love to have you.
But then, a few conversationsin, they say, oh yeah, and by
the way, you need to haveconfirmed coverage.
No, that's an absolute no.
And I'm not going to do itBecause, as you know, a
(18:51):
freelancer, I don't have thefreedom to say that I will
definitely get this confirmedwith a publication and frankly I
shouldn't, because how knowwhat about that experience is
going to stand out enough towrite about.
Right, you know, it's reallyimportant to have the experience
first.
I certainly like to brainstormwith PR folks.
You know, even in the lead upto a trip I like having some
(19:14):
brainstorming sessions so that Ican kind of kick my research
off in one direction or another.
Yeah, but really being on thetrip and doing the research is
where the ideas kind of cometogether, and I think that part
of the process you just can'tskip, that you can't go right to
a confirmed assignment.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
On hosted trips.
Do you prefer group orindividual?
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Definitely individual , and that's mostly because over
the past year there have been acouple of my editors who have.
I'm not sure that they havesaid it quite as directly as
this, but the basic premise wasthey didn't like being pitched
stuff from group trips becausethey felt like they were getting
a lot of similar pitches.
So for me it's really importantto be able to differentiate
(20:00):
what I'm doing from otherwriters.
I don't mind so much if it's avery small group trip from other
writers.
I don't mind so much if it's avery small group trip, like I
did a group trip to Australiaback in oh gosh, I think it was
August and that was super small.
It was supposed to be threepeople.
One person dropped out, so itwas just two of us and the PR
person.
That was great because I knewwe were not going to be
(20:21):
overlapping in the stories thatwe were trying to tell.
But it's so much harder whenit's six, eight, 10, 12 people.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Yes, yeah, definitely .
What outlets are you mostwriting for now?
I know you mentioned HiddenCompass.
What are some others?
Speaker 2 (20:36):
I would say that I'm most writing for any particular
outlets.
I'm a little bit of a mercenaryand I write for anybody who
likes a good story and iswilling to pay me.
That's good, that's good Moneythat can actually pay bills.
We're not talking about 50bucks, right?
Yeah, for me.
I kind of cast a wide net.
I usually will.
(20:57):
I'll target a particularpublication, especially an
editor that I have a standingrelationship with and I have a
sense of their preferences.
So I will go to them first witha story idea and then, if they
pass, for whatever reason andsometimes those reasons are very
, you know, it's not about thepitch itself, it might be oh, we
just ran a story on thisdestination, on a different
(21:18):
topic, right?
So when that happens, I thencast the net wider and wider and
wider until I finally land withthe you know right place at the
right time kind of thing, right?
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Makes sense.
What are you the most proud ofin your career?
Speaker 2 (21:33):
this far, I think probably just being persistent
enough in the face of manyclosed doors.
For those of us who don't livein a major market and I never
have I live close to New YorkCity.
I'm about three hours north ofthe city, I'm about two and a
half hours from Boston, so thereare major markets nearby but I
(21:55):
have never had the desire tolive in them.
I'm just not a city person.
But for those of us who do notlive in a major market, it is
that much harder to build acareer, and especially in
journalism.
So I think just the fact that Istuck around and I grew a thick
enough skin, you know, to putup with all of the rejection to
(22:17):
finally get to a point where Ifelt like yeah, you know what,
I'm pretty good at this and Ishould be proud of what I'm
putting out there.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Yes, it's a very.
For those who are not in it, itis a very difficult career to
be a freelance journalist.
I mean, you're really drivingit yourself and depending on how
much you know, how great youare as well.
But how much motivation youhave and self-starter, you know
all of that.
And thick skin, like you said,it takes a lot.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Yeah, and you know, a lot of it is about networking
and, again, right place at righttime.
Sometimes it's just a matter oftiming and I think you know not
that I would call myself amodel or an actor but I think
it's similar in the sense thatyou could be the most beautiful
person in the world or the bestsinger in the world.
But if the right person isn'tthe one who sees you and
(23:08):
appreciates that your careerprobably isn't going to go
anywhere.
It's the same for writers Doesnot matter how talented you are.
It certainly helps if you'retalented, but it matters more
that you are willing to stickwith it.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Yes, that is so true.
So before we go, I must askwhat's next for you.
Are there any exciting projectsor stories you're currently
working on or looking forward toin the future?
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Yeah, I've got a couple on my plate right now.
So I do have a very timelystory which I can't divulge too
many details on yet, but it'sbased on where I live in upstate
New York, so there's somereally cool stuff happening next
year.
So this story is going to befor the Washington Post.
I'm very excited about it.
I'm also working on a story.
(23:53):
I just came back from a trip toIceland and I'm working on a
story that will incorporateglaciology and some lore you
know some Icelandic.
It's going to be kind ofcomplicated, it's a little
ambitious and I'm probably it'llbe one of those stories where
it's going to be kind ofcomplicated.
It's a little ambitious and II'm probably it'll be one of
those stories where it's goingto take me forever to get it out
.
I want to get it out the waythat I'm envisioning because I
(24:15):
just feel like there's somethingreally cool about this
connection.
So I'm very, very jazzed aboutthat story idea.
And then I'm just I'm lookingforward to potentially going to
a couple of places that havebeen on my list for a while.
I really would love to do somegorilla trekking in Africa.
I would love to explore NewZealand.
I have not been there yet and Iwould love a really nice
(24:38):
tropical South Pacific kind oftrip.
You know, maybe girl diving inFiji or something really
conservation story in theMaldives.
Maldives is, of course, areally good conservation area in
general because they've been soaffected by sea level rise, so
I feel like there are just thereare so many stories everywhere
There'll never be enough time totell them, but I will tell a
(25:01):
few.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Oh, I want to tag along on those trips too.
That would sound fantastic, andI know we mentioned social
isn't a priority, but how canour listeners connect with you
online?
What is the best way?
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Sure, so definitely for PR folks.
They can connect with me onLinkedIn.
I am doing, I would say, aweekly or bi-weekly tip just for
PR pros, okay, so those arepretty good to follow In terms
of people.
You know, maybe other listeners, readers, whatever.
You can definitely find me onInstagram.
Although I post fairlysporadically, I am at once more
(25:37):
to the shore, yeah, but thoseare probably the two best places
to find me.
Otherwise, you know, you canjust Google my name and travel
writing and you'll pull up someof my stories.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Thank you so much and we look forward to reading
what's next.
Oh, you're so welcome.
Thank you for inviting me.
That's all for this episode ofMedia in Minutes, a podcast by
Communications Redefined.
Please take a moment to rate,review and subscribe to our show
.
We'd love to hear what youthink.
You can find more atcommunicationsredefinedcom slash
(26:07):
podcast.
I'm your host, angela Toole.
Talk to you next time.
Welcome to Media in Minutes.
This is your host, angela Toole.
This podcast features in-depthinterviews with those who report
on the world around us.
They share everything fromtheir favorite stories to what
happened behind the lens andgive us a glimpse into their
world From our studio here atCommunications.
Redefined this is, and humancultures.
She can be found sipping ciderand plying the waters of upstate
(00:49):
New York in her inflatablekayak.
Robyn's work has appeared inthe New York Times, national
Geographic, bbc Travel andLeisure, washington Post,
smithsonian, condé Nast,traveler, rob Reports and many
more.
She was selected as the 2020Writer-in-Residence at Arrowhead
and is also a 2022 finalist inthe IFWTA Excellence in
(01:12):
Journalism Awards, and last year, robin was the winner of an
SATW Lowell Thomas Award forSustainable Tourism Reporting.
This year, she was a two-timewinner in both the SATW and ASJA
annual writing awards.
Hi Robin, how are things in NewYork?
Speaker 2 (01:31):
They are cold and snowy.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
We've got that too.
Did you get a?
Speaker 2 (01:38):
lot of snow.
We got about four inchesovernight and it's still kind of
coming down lightly right now.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Okay, Okay, that's.
That's a good amount.
So I'd love to start withyou've had such an impressive
career in journalism.
Can you tell us a bit aboutyour journey and what inspired
you to become a journalist?
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Sure, first I would say thank you very much.
That's super kind and I'm veryhappy to hear it, and I'll come
back tomorrow and have you saythat again.
Okay, good, I would say I meanmore than anything, I think I
fell into it.
I have been writing since I waseight years old and I actually
used to make my own littlemagazines.
(02:17):
Believe it or not, I still.
Yes, I was a gymnast and I usedto create magazines about my
favorite gymnasts.
That was kind of my own entreeinto the publishing world.
And I think as I got older, youknow, I developed a variety of
interests.
I kept writing, but I wasdetermined to go into
(02:39):
archaeology in university.
On my last day of high school,I was having a conversation with
my honors English teacher andhe said I would hate for you to
leave here and never write again.
And that stuck with me, and Ithink that was maybe the first
time that I thought to myselfyou know, this is not only
something that I like, but it'ssomething I'm good at, and so I
(03:02):
should think about that on aprofessional level.
So then, what happened fromthere?
Well, I did actually major inarchaeology, but also English.
Okay, I kept that going.
And then by the time I did mygrad school, I was pretty firmly
in the English literaturecreative writing camp.
I thought I would be auniversity professor at that
(03:23):
point, oh OK.
But I started working as anintern for a local publication
and that was my first journalismjob.
I did a variety of jobs in theinterim.
I've been everything.
I was a corporatecommunications manager, social
media manager, magazine editor,book editor, and I still keep a
(03:44):
foot in some of those worlds.
But I eventually came back tojournalism because I had missed
the long form storytelling.
I just felt like I was gettingthat with, you know, social
media and blogging to someextent as well.
I was doing that for a homedecor company.
So yeah, for me it just it sortof felt like a little bit of a
(04:06):
homecoming to come back tojournalism.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Yeah, and you know, long form journalism is not as
plentiful as it used to beeither, unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
No, it's not.
Yeah, it's really.
I don't want to say a dying art, because I think there are
plenty of people who would do itand do it well if given more
opportunity, right, somethingthat you know.
I guess publishers are sort ofbeholden to their advertisers
and what performs the best.
So you know they continue toproduce more of the content that
they believe performs well.
(04:37):
But I really miss, you know,those meaty stories where you
really felt transported to theplace.
It wasn't just a servicejournalism story and there's no
shade on service journalismstories.
They have their purpose as wellbut I think those really rich
stories.
We're missing a lot of thatright now in travel publishing.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Yes, absolutely.
I love those too.
So, as you mentioned travel,you specialize in travel
conservation, preservation andfood and beverage journalism.
How do you decide what topicsor stories to pursue?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
I would say I'm still a generalist in the travel
world, but the topics thatyou've mentioned, those are ones
that have really becomepersonal passions over time and
the ones that I'm maybe mostknowledgeable about.
I wouldn't say that I decidewhat to pursue so much as I
listen and then sort of home inon a little nugget of
(05:31):
information, and it could be areally obvious news peg, like
some you know, a grand openingof a major museum, or it could
be some little esoteric bit oftrivia.
But once I find it I really diginto it, like with the crazy
approach of a homicide detective, Like I just got to know what's
on the other.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
That's fabulous.
So I'm assuming the storiestake you quite a bit of time,
sometimes as well.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Anything service journalism, you know, the more
narrative stories they do takeme a while to produce, maybe too
long, even by some.
But for me that's I don't knowit's part of the process of
making sure that what I'mputting out into the world is
good and not just something thatI've dashed off.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Yes, yes, absolutely.
That's true journalism, and youmentioned conservation.
Can you talk a little bit aboutwhy this issue is so important
to you and how you approach itin your writing?
Sure?
Speaker 2 (06:30):
I think what it really boils down to is that,
you know, humans, for all thegood we have done in the world,
we've also done a tremendousamount of harm, and this is
especially when we think aboutthe natural world that could be,
you know, plastics, pollution,overhunting of a species to near
extinction, and you know we'vedone a lot of harm to cultures
(06:51):
as well, and a lot of them aremarginalized.
So I think, as a, as you know,supposedly the most intelligent
species on the planet, we're nowin a place where we need to fix
what we've wrought.
So for me, you know, I wouldn'tclaim that my approach is
solutions journalism,necessarily, and I think that
(07:14):
that term implies perhaps thateverything else is non-solutions
oriented.
But I do love stories that poseboth a question and even a
suggestion of an answer, becauseI think that's what we're
looking for as people we want toknow.
Ok, yeah, this is a bad thing.
How do we make it better?
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Yes, absolutely, and you've had the opportunity to
tell some fantastic stories.
Is there a particular articlethat stands out as especially
fulfilling or important to you?
Speaker 2 (07:44):
I think there are probably a few.
I've done a couple of piecesfor Hidden Compass which I
really love working with HiddenCompass.
They are very much in the moldof the you know the through the
merchant trade in Salem,massachusetts, and that was.
It was a challenge because itwas sort of hard to dig up the
(08:13):
information on it and find theright subjects to interview and
it took a very, very long timeto put that story together.
I think from the first bit ofresearch all the way through to
the final draft was about twoyears total, not that I was, I
would pay my bills if that's allI did Right Kind of thing.
(08:34):
I had to keep going back andadding and taking away and
reshaping, so when it wasfinally done it just felt really
good to first of all to haveachieved bringing together that
giant amount of information andkind of distilling it down to
something people couldunderstand.
And you know it's an importanttopic that doesn't get a lot of
coverage.
(08:54):
I did another piece for them aswell on fossil hunting in New
Brunswick, canada, and thatthat's the sort of thing that
appeals to the archaeologists inme.
You know it's paleontology, butbut great so I had the
opportunity to do sort of afossil ride along with the um I
believe he's the gosh I'mblanking on his name I think
(09:15):
he's like the provincialdirector of um paleontology in
New Brunswick.
Okay, so that was super cooljust to be in this place that
has this incredible history andto talk kind of shop geeky
things, talk about and thebeginning of the earth and all
of that kind of stuff.
And then I would call it onemore thing.
We have two more seconds.
(09:37):
So this year I actually was ableto tell a story that kind of
crosses politics and darktourism and this is not really a
topic that I've made foraysinto in the past, but I took a
trip to Cyprus and just kind offinding out how the invasion of
Cyprus had affected the peoplewho lived there, both Turks and
(09:59):
Greeks.
This is back in 1974.
So we're now on the 50thanniversary.
Really hearing about thestories and seeing Varosha,
which is the supposed abandonedcity, seeing how all of that
happened was so incrediblyeye-opening for me in realizing
what we're doing with tourism aswell.
Tourism doesn't always, orisn't always, a force for good.
(10:22):
I guess we should say.
So being able to tell thatstory that was really meaningful
, incorporating the voices ofpeople who remember what it was
like when the invasion happened.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Yes, wow, we will definitely, definitely link to
all of those in our show notes.
And I have to ask how do youselect your next destination and
do you typically go andexperience and then pitch
stories to editors, or how doesthat work?
Speaker 2 (10:49):
It's a little bit of a mix.
So I definitely have, you know,my own bucket list of places
that I would like to go.
So those are kind of they'realways at the top of my mind
when I think you know where do Iwant to go next.
I do get a good number ofinvitations, and sometimes it's
to a place that I hadn't reallythought about, and when I see
the invitation it then sort ofprompts this thinking process in
(11:13):
me of like, well, why didn't Ithink of going here before?
And this could be an incrediblestory.
So sometimes it's a left offield thing and it's just, it's
a whim.
Maybe You're like, oh yeah, Ithink I can tell the heck out of
that story, so I run with it.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Awesome.
So what are some of the mostsurprising things you've learned
about a culture or a location,maybe aside from what you just
mentioned a little bit ago, butduring your travels?
Speaker 2 (11:40):
I think that let's see my trip to British Columbia
last year.
I visited two Chinatowns, inVancouver and Victoria.
Victoria's is the oldest inNorth sorry, second oldest in
North America, wow.
Okay, vancouver's is the secondlargest.
So that's both after SanFrancisco.
So telling that story aboutsort of the evolution of
(12:02):
Chinatown they have, you know,as Chinatowns around the country
have, they've struggled in thelast couple of decades but
they're starting this littlerevival that really I think will
start picking up steam in thenext couple of years and turn
into something really incrediblehow the Chinese immigrants came
(12:25):
here, how they were treated,what their early lives were like
, and what it is like for themto live there now and what it
means to still have thiscommunity.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Wow, that sounds fascinating, if you could.
This might be a hard one.
If you could trade places withone of the people you've written
about, or even in the play, youknow one of the places that
you've written about for even aday, who or where would that be?
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Oh, it would probably be Matt Stimson, who is the
paleontologist that I talkedabout in New Brunswick.
I would love to have his jobfor a day.
It would be fabulous to just be, you know, looking for fossils
and collecting them, and then,you know, archiving them in the
museum.
That would be an awesome job.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Yes, that does sound great.
I used to love that, especiallyas a child One of my favorite
things as well learning aboutthe fossils and that whole area,
so it's great that you can dosome of that in your work.
So, as someone who's wonmultiple awards, which we
mentioned in the intro for yourwriting, including in
sustainable tourism tell us alittle bit more about those
(13:33):
awards and what you think makesa great story.
You know be able to.
I know you're not writing themto necessarily win the award.
What has made them that way?
Speaker 2 (13:43):
I think so, the awards themselves.
So I've won a couple of awardsfrom ASJA, the American Society
of Journalists and Authors, fromSATW, the Society of American
Travel Writers, and I was afinalist in the I'm going to get
their name wrong because it'sreally long, but I think it's
IFTWA International Food WineTravel or Food Travel Wine
(14:06):
Journalists Association Okay.
International food wine travelor food travel wine journalists
association okay.
Um, I think probably the mostcommon theme among these stories
is just that they have strongcharacters, a compelling arc, um
, some creative choices of words, um, definitely honesty and a
lack of sentimentality.
(14:27):
I try not to present anythingwith sort of like a gauzy filter
over it, because I think it'sreally important to show travel
as it is.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
And it's.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
You know, travel isn't always good and positive
and beautiful.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Right.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Something we lack, especially if we're only looking
at it on social media.
On social media, we tend to seeall of the beautiful images,
but it's around the corner.
So I think that that's kind ofwhere my stories go is talking a
little bit more about you know,maybe a little bit more in
depth and a little bit moreabout the parts of travel that
maybe are not beautiful andInstagram ready, and I don't
(15:07):
know, maybe for me that's aformula that works.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
We need that so much more in our world on everything,
not just travel.
But you're right, and we alsoset so many expectations when we
travel that it is going to belike exactly what we've seen on
social media and all perfect andwonderful, and that's not
always the case and, like yousaid, that doesn't show the
entire place Exactly.
(15:32):
Yeah, in your own words I youmentioned being an uninfluencer.
Tell us a little bit more aboutthat.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Yeah.
So I started calling myself theinfluencer a few years ago
because I have seen a lot of mypeers who are tremendously
successful with their socialmedia and I give them major
kudos for that.
But I at one point had startedfeeling like, oh, I'm really
doing something wrong here.
Why don't I have 10,000followers?
(16:02):
And you know why are people notinteracting with every single
post I put out there?
But after a while I started torealize that, you know, if we're
going to throw around the wordauthenticity which frankly, we
throw around a little too muchbut if we are going to throw
around that word, we are notbeing authentic if we only put
the best parts of life onlineand if we're so tethered to our
(16:26):
phones that we're not actuallymindful of what's happening
around us.
So I got to the point offeeling like you know what, it
is okay if I forget to post onsocial media.
It's okay if I don't post onsocial media while I am in the
destination.
I can do it after, I can do ita year after if I want to.
So, yeah, I think finally, kindof cutting that cord and
(16:51):
realizing that I did not have tobe on social media all the time
actually freed me up to be abetter storyteller, just in
articles, and you know what?
That's what I'm good at.
I'm good at stories, longerform stories.
I'm not necessarily great atInstagram reels.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
That is totally okay.
Yes, I would love to know yourthoughts on PR professionals as
well and working with us.
Do you have any pet peeves oradvice for those of us who have
story ideas for you?
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Sure, I would say I guess we can.
We can start with the negativesand then go to the positive.
Sure, okay, at Peeves there wasa trend for a while it seems
like it's petering out, and I'mvery glad for that where people
would use the word invite in thesubject line and what they were
inviting me to do would wasinterview a client of theirs oh,
(17:43):
really, a story for publication, and that's not an invite.
To save that word for an actualin-person invite, whether it's,
you know, we're meeting overcoffee or a press trip.
So I'm not big on themisleading subject lines and I
think you know I've posted quitea bit about this on LinkedIn.
(18:07):
I think you know publishing issort of in a phase right now.
It's going through a little bitof a reckoning because it's not
the landscape that it once was.
It's competing with a varietyof different outlets, with
social media growing up rightnow, and while it does, we all
(18:29):
need to be a little bit moretolerant of sort of the rules of
publishing which are basically,you know, most of our editors
don't even want to hear from usuntil after the trip has already
happened.
So when a PR person reaches outto me about a trip and they say
, oh yes, we'd love to have you.
But then, a few conversationsin, they say, oh yeah, and by
the way, you need to haveconfirmed coverage.
No, that's an absolute no.
And I'm not going to do itBecause, as you know, a
(18:51):
freelancer, I don't have thefreedom to say that I will
definitely get this confirmedwith a publication and frankly I
shouldn't, because how knowwhat about that experience is
going to stand out enough towrite about.
Right, you know, it's reallyimportant to have the experience
first.
I certainly like to brainstormwith PR folks.
You know, even in the lead upto a trip I like having some
(19:14):
brainstorming sessions so that Ican kind of kick my research
off in one direction or another.
Yeah, but really being on thetrip and doing the research is
where the ideas kind of cometogether, and I think that part
of the process you just can'tskip, that you can't go right to
a confirmed assignment.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
On hosted trips.
Do you prefer group orindividual?
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Definitely individual , and that's mostly because over
the past year there have been acouple of my editors who have.
I'm not sure that they havesaid it quite as directly as
this, but the basic premise wasthey didn't like being pitched
stuff from group trips becausethey felt like they were getting
a lot of similar pitches.
So for me it's really importantto be able to differentiate
(20:00):
what I'm doing from otherwriters.
I don't mind so much if it's avery small group trip from other
writers.
I don't mind so much if it's avery small group trip, like I
did a group trip to Australiaback in oh gosh, I think it was
August and that was super small.
It was supposed to be threepeople.
One person dropped out, so itwas just two of us and the PR
person.
That was great because I knewwe were not going to be
(20:21):
overlapping in the stories thatwe were trying to tell.
But it's so much harder whenit's six, eight, 10, 12 people.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Yes, yeah, definitely .
What outlets are you mostwriting for now?
I know you mentioned HiddenCompass.
What are some others?
Speaker 2 (20:36):
I would say that I'm most writing for any particular
outlets.
I'm a little bit of a mercenaryand I write for anybody who
likes a good story and iswilling to pay me.
That's good, that's good Moneythat can actually pay bills.
We're not talking about 50bucks, right?
Yeah, for me.
I kind of cast a wide net.
I usually will.
(20:57):
I'll target a particularpublication, especially an
editor that I have a standingrelationship with and I have a
sense of their preferences.
So I will go to them first witha story idea and then, if they
pass, for whatever reason andsometimes those reasons are very
, you know, it's not about thepitch itself, it might be oh, we
just ran a story on thisdestination, on a different
(21:18):
topic, right?
So when that happens, I thencast the net wider and wider and
wider until I finally land withthe you know right place at the
right time kind of thing, right?
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Makes sense.
What are you the most proud ofin your career?
Speaker 2 (21:33):
this far, I think probably just being persistent
enough in the face of manyclosed doors.
For those of us who don't livein a major market and I never
have I live close to New YorkCity.
I'm about three hours north ofthe city, I'm about two and a
half hours from Boston, so thereare major markets nearby but I
(21:55):
have never had the desire tolive in them.
I'm just not a city person.
But for those of us who do notlive in a major market, it is
that much harder to build acareer, and especially in
journalism.
So I think just the fact that Istuck around and I grew a thick
enough skin, you know, to putup with all of the rejection to
(22:17):
finally get to a point where Ifelt like yeah, you know what,
I'm pretty good at this and Ishould be proud of what I'm
putting out there.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Yes, it's a very.
For those who are not in it, itis a very difficult career to
be a freelance journalist.
I mean, you're really drivingit yourself and depending on how
much you know, how great youare as well.
But how much motivation youhave and self-starter, you know
all of that.
And thick skin, like you said,it takes a lot.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Yeah, and you know, a lot of it is about networking
and, again, right place at righttime.
Sometimes it's just a matter oftiming and I think you know not
that I would call myself amodel or an actor but I think
it's similar in the sense thatyou could be the most beautiful
person in the world or the bestsinger in the world.
But if the right person isn'tthe one who sees you and
(23:08):
appreciates that your careerprobably isn't going to go
anywhere.
It's the same for writers Doesnot matter how talented you are.
It certainly helps if you'retalented, but it matters more
that you are willing to stickwith it.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Yes, that is so true.
So before we go, I must askwhat's next for you.
Are there any exciting projectsor stories you're currently
working on or looking forward toin the future?
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Yeah, I've got a couple on my plate right now.
So I do have a very timelystory which I can't divulge too
many details on yet, but it'sbased on where I live in upstate
New York, so there's somereally cool stuff happening next
year.
So this story is going to befor the Washington Post.
I'm very excited about it.
I'm also working on a story.
(23:53):
I just came back from a trip toIceland and I'm working on a
story that will incorporateglaciology and some lore you
know some Icelandic.
It's going to be kind ofcomplicated, it's a little
ambitious and I'm probably it'llbe one of those stories where
it's going to be kind ofcomplicated.
It's a little ambitious and II'm probably it'll be one of
those stories where it's goingto take me forever to get it out
.
I want to get it out the waythat I'm envisioning because I
(24:15):
just feel like there's somethingreally cool about this
connection.
So I'm very, very jazzed aboutthat story idea.
And then I'm just I'm lookingforward to potentially going to
a couple of places that havebeen on my list for a while.
I really would love to do somegorilla trekking in Africa.
I would love to explore NewZealand.
I have not been there yet and Iwould love a really nice
(24:38):
tropical South Pacific kind oftrip.
You know, maybe girl diving inFiji or something really
conservation story in theMaldives.
Maldives is, of course, areally good conservation area in
general because they've been soaffected by sea level rise, so
I feel like there are just thereare so many stories everywhere
There'll never be enough time totell them, but I will tell a
(25:01):
few.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Oh, I want to tag along on those trips too.
That would sound fantastic, andI know we mentioned social
isn't a priority, but how canour listeners connect with you
online?
What is the best way?
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Sure, so definitely for PR folks.
They can connect with me onLinkedIn.
I am doing, I would say, aweekly or bi-weekly tip just for
PR pros, okay, so those arepretty good to follow In terms
of people.
You know, maybe other listeners, readers, whatever.
You can definitely find me onInstagram.
Although I post fairlysporadically, I am at once more
(25:37):
to the shore, yeah, but thoseare probably the two best places
to find me.
Otherwise, you know, you canjust Google my name and travel
writing and you'll pull up someof my stories.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Thank you so much and we look forward to reading
what's next.
Oh, you're so welcome.
Thank you for inviting me.
That's all for this episode ofMedia in Minutes, a podcast by
Communications Redefined.
Please take a moment to rate,review and subscribe to our show
.
We'd love to hear what youthink.
You can find more atcommunicationsredefinedcom slash
(26:07):
podcast.
I'm your host, angela Toole.
Talk to you next time.
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