April 23, 2025 • 36 mins
What if everything you thought you knew about sales and personal branding was backward? Rob Durant, CEO, US Operations of The Institute for Sales Professionals, challenges conventional wisdom by revealing that successful sales and compelling personal brands aren't actually about you—they're about solving problems for others.
Durant's mission to transform the sales profession began with his own experience as a 14-year-old cold caller with no training. Today, his organization provides rigorous, globally-recognized certification that ensures sales professionals deliver value rather than simply pursuing transactions. By partnering with universities worldwide, Durant is reshaping the profession at its roots, giving students the foundation they never had.
The conversation takes a fascinating turn when Durant reveals what he calls "the secret to success in life"—it's not about what you know or who you know, but who knows you for what you know. This perspective shift reframes how we should approach LinkedIn, job interviews, and professional relationships. Rather than self-promoting, Durant advocates using social platforms to be "approachable, sociable, and generous," creating authentic connections that naturally lead to opportunities.
For students and young professionals, Durant offers counterintuitive yet powerful advice: your resume, LinkedIn profile, and interview responses should focus on solving employers' problems, not listing your accomplishments. He also makes a compelling case for everyone to start a podcast, not just for audience-building but to develop transferable skills highly valued in today's digital workplace.
Even as AI transforms business communication, Durant emphasizes that genuine human connection remains irreplaceable in sales and relationship-building. As he puts it, "Have your bot call my bot and they can do digital lunch sometime"—but real problems need real conversations with real people.
Whether you're a seasoned sales professional, a student planning your career, or anyone looking to build a meaningful digital presence, this episode offers practical wisdom for connecting authentically in an increasingly digital world.
The ISP has a free associate level membership which provides access to a number of our training programs, webinars, and podcasts. And right now the ISP is offering full membership access at no charge to students in formal Sales major, minor, and certificate programs.
This podcast is proudly sponsored by USC Annenberg’s Master of Science in Digital Media Management (MSDMM) program. An online master’s designed to prepare practitioners to understand the evolving media landscape, make data-driven and ethical decisions, and build a more equitable future by leading diverse teams with the technical, artistic, analytical, and production skills needed to create engaging content and technologies for the global marketplace. Learn more or apply today at https://dmm.usc.edu.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Mediascape insights from digital
changemakers, a speaker seriesand podcast brought to you by
USC Annenberg's Digital MediaManagement Program.
Join us as we unlock thesecrets to success in an
increasingly digital world.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
When I can combine sales marketing, comms
strategies, personal branding,podcasting and professorship,
it's one of my favorite thingsto do, and my guest today, Rob
Durant, is in all of thoseworlds.
Rob, thank you for being here.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
It is so exciting to be here.
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Of course, let's get into all of the things.
You have the Institute forSales Professionals.
What is your mission behindthat organization?
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Thank you for asking.
We at the ISP have one goal toelevate the profession of sales.
When you think of a salesperson, what do you think of?
Speaker 2 (01:07):
There are a few things.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
One of them Exactly, and that's what we want to
change.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Yeah, I mean.
One of them is people beingrecruited off of social media,
put in sales positions getting ascript, not being really
trained, not really knowing theproduct or the brand message,
but just trying to make coldcall sales.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
My favorite sales training methodology and I say
this tongue in cheek is the onethat I experienced most of all,
and that is the day you're firsthired.
Hey, welcome, so glad to haveyou here.
Why don't you pick up a headsetand sit with them for an hour
and then pick up a phone and dothe same thing?
Yeah, that's not sales training.
So at the ISP, we're not asales training organization per
(01:52):
se, we're not a membershiporganization per se, we're kind
of an amalgam of all of theabove is bring together the best
practices and the best peopletogether, put forth the image of
sales professionals that we hadhoped was always there.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Yeah, I'll give you an example.
I may have shared this with youwhen we've had previous
conversations that one of myfirst jobs besides babysitting
was in Topeka, kansas.
I was 14, really wanted to work.
May have been 15 by the time Itook this job not quite sure and
I was cold calling people fromthe white pages to get their
(02:38):
carpets cleaned.
I was giving a script said okay,we're focused on this page or
this last name or whatever.
And if we made a sale which wasnot easy to do I did have
overcome a few people'sobjections, but you know, wasn't
really trained up in it.
We got to throw a dart at adartboard to see what our bonus
(02:59):
would be.
So again, everybody listening,this is not the way to train a
sales team.
You probably don't want to.
When you're picking up thephone, you probably don't want
to hear a 14 or 15 year oldtrying to make a sale.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
No, not really yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
So I think that what you're doing is critically
important.
What was the reason that youstarted it, what did you do
before or what are you stillcurrently doing, and what does
it look like?
Because I did see that you havecertifications.
You have a few other thingsthat you offer so that people
can actually be trainedappropriately and then also have
a stamp of approval that theycan show.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Right.
So when I say it's an amalgamof all of the above, it's really
(04:10):
the three C's that we focus on,and that is content,
certification and community.
And what we're looking to do isto establish the foundational
principles of what good saleslooks like.
And we have certification.
We are actually certifiedthrough the UK's Office of
Standards and Qualifications,ofqual.
Okay wow, and what that means iswe are audited annually to
ensure that we're not justrubber stamping members, that we
are providing robust andrigorous training and
(04:33):
development, and those trainingpartners that we work with are
doing likewise.
So it's more than just acertificate of attendance.
It's more than just acertificate of attendance.
It's more than just a receiptof having paid dues.
It is saying that if you'vecompleted this work through the
(04:55):
ISP, you have completed workthat actually drives you to
being better in the professionof sales.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Actually, drives you to being better in the
profession of sales.
What was the process like toget certified?
Because I can't imagine thatwas an easy endeavor.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
It's sort of ongoing, as they say.
We are audited annually.
In terms of the initial, theISP has been in existence for
(05:33):
almost 10 years in the UK.
We are just now rolling it intothe US and Canada and India and
Australia, New Zealand andSouth America and other
countries in Europe as well.
So we are taking it from anational organization to a
global organization Very nice.
Interestingly enough, my rolein rolling it out to the US is
(05:56):
starting with colleges anduniversities, especially those
that have formal sales trainingprograms.
What we're doing there ispartnering with those schools
and offering their studentsmembership at no additional
charge for two to four years,depending upon where they are in
their academic pursuit.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Wow, I mean that's certainly a large gift.
Are you able to do that out ofthe goodness of your hearts?
Because you have some greatcorporate partners that are
helping fund some of this?
Speaker 3 (06:26):
We don't have corporate partners funding that?
Not yet anyway.
We're certainly open to it, butwe're doing that because we are
mission driven, above all, andthere's a line from the
Untouchables Sean Connery talksabout when you have a bad apple,
(06:48):
you don't go back to the bunch,you go right to the tree.
Now that makes it seem like I'mputting salespeople in the bad
apple category, and that's notwhat I mean at all.
Instill in people while they'restill forming their perceptions
of sales.
Let's instill in them what thebest practices are and the
(07:10):
behaviors and so on.
We'll still be going out tocorporates and we'll still be
partnering with all sorts ofpainting partners throughout the
country and, frankly, worldwide.
But we're making this approachthrough colleges and
universities because we believeit will have impact for everyone
involved.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Yeah, yeah, I think a lot of people end up in sales
roles.
They get their business degreeright, they become an account
executive or some way.
They find their way into salesas one of their first positions.
But again, they're notnecessarily getting training in
that specific skill set and howto approach it.
This goes hand in hand with thework that you do as a professor
(07:54):
, right, and also with your owncoaching and consulting business
.
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
So what I do as a professor, I'm teaching intro to
marketing to predominantlyfreshmen and second years.
At Northeastern we have a fiveyear program.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
OK.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
And I'm also teaching things like consumer behavior
an introduction to socialenablement to MBA students.
So I'm very fortunate in that Iget to work with students at
all ends of the spectrum in thatregard.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Yeah, and did you create a lot of the courses that
you're teaching?
Speaker 3 (08:36):
The introduction to social enablement I did create.
That is based on the book thatI wrote, is based on the book
that I wrote, the SocialEnablement Blueprint and there
what I do is I show people howto leverage the social media
platforms to be approachable, besociable and be generous.
And the outcome of that is, asmore people know you for what
(09:01):
you want to be known for and asyou know people for what they
want to be known for,opportunity finds you.
It's not that ABC of Glen Gary,glen Ross, always be closing.
It's always be connecting,always be caring, because people
(09:22):
like doing business with peoplethey know, like and trust.
But in order for them to trustyou, in order for them to like
you, they need to first know you, and the social media platforms
allow us a tremendousopportunity to do that.
And I don't mean the broadcastelements of it.
(09:43):
I'm not talking about going outthere and becoming the next
influencer.
I'm talking about going outthere and having some influence,
sharing your ideas, sharingyour thoughts, having
conversations.
Frankly, that's how we met.
We met through social mediainteractions.
(10:05):
We were just both open toconnecting with new people and
who knows where the relationshipleads.
Sometimes, when you do it, itleads nowhere.
Sometimes, when you do it, itleads to tremendous
opportunities you never couldhave foreseen.
Could have foreseen.
But the key is if you do thisregularly enough and with
(10:27):
intention you make your own luck.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Absolutely Could not agree more, and that's it's
interesting, because we knowthat personalization, one-to-one
communication, being able toactually see the human behind
all of the titles, right is soimportant today.
But then we also I was just atan AI conference for two days.
That was all founders, CEOs,investors, some who were in the
AI world, some who neededtraining, because it's often the
(10:58):
people at the top who don'treally understand the technology
right.
It needs to really be bottom up.
Understand the technology,right, it needs to really be
bottom up.
But a lot of the tools that wewere talking about were
automations, right.
Things that would create yourmaterial for LinkedIn or
LinkedIn newsletter.
Ways for people to communicateto your chatbot that still
sounded like you and eventuallywill look like you, right,
(11:22):
Either by typing or by calling anumber and hearing your digital
voice.
How does that play into salestoday?
Because I've seen good and badexamples of using those kind of
technologies.
So I really want to get yourperspective on what can be
helpful, but what can also beharmful, and what we need to
keep in mind to keep that humantouch.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Thank you for asking.
I truly believe that we're onthe precipice of something big,
but we're not.
If it was a dating app, wouldyou want to talk to an AI bot of
(12:13):
me to decide whether or not togo out on a date?
No, you'd want to connect withthat authentic person.
I believe the social platformsshould be that.
They should be social.
There are things that AI canhelp with.
There are things thatautomation can help with, but
(12:34):
not the frontline things thatwe're seeing.
Ai can help me understand thesignal from the noise.
Ai can bring to me the latestchatter about problems that I
saw, because, as a salesperson,that's really my role is to help
(12:55):
people alleviate the problemsthat they have.
Now here's this problem in theindustry in the ether could go
out and provide an automatedresponse to that right away.
Okay, great, but you haven'tsold me on anything.
You've told me that you believethat you have the answer.
(13:19):
Why don't you instead have aconversation with me and dig
into what the real issues are,and that can't be done through
AI.
I know there will be plentythat say, oh yeah, our solution
does that.
I don't want to talk to yourbot.
Have your bot, call my bot andthey can do digital lunch
(13:39):
sometime.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Yeah, yeah, it's funny that you say that, though,
because eventually, we aregoing to have our own little
personal AI assistants, and theywill be doing that or planning
us, you know, planning ways forus to meet in person and
checking our schedules so thatwe it takes out some of the busy
work, you know, maybe, but westill, but hopefully will give
us time for more humanconnection.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
Exactly.
Yeah, I love it for thosethings.
Exactly, I love it for thosethings, those tasks that right
now are seemingly mundane buthave to be done by us.
(14:23):
No, they can be automated, butthe've got tools that are on my
end that are screening you out,whereas if we have a
conversation, there's no needfor anything to be screened out.
We're just having aconversation.
Yeah, it's not a sales pitch,it's not a discovery question or
(14:45):
discovery call.
It's just a conversation.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Yeah, let's go to your podcast.
Sure, because digital download.
You're the executive producer.
It is a very long-runningbusiness podcast.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
It is the longest-running weekly business
broadcast on LinkedIn Live.
Yeah, we've been going at it,for we'll be soon going into our
fifth year, so almostimmediately upon LinkedIn
offering people the ability tobroadcast live.
We were being a part of thatand I love it, because there's
(15:22):
really not much of a plot to it.
It's really just your weeklydose of water cooler talk.
We will bring a subject matterexpert on for an hour and talk
to them about their area ofexpertise.
Myself, I have stepped awayfrom hosting just because my
schedule this semester has beenbusy enough that I could not
(15:46):
commit to it.
I miss it, I do.
I miss the guys and the galsthat are on the panel and I
really miss the guests, becauseI got to meet such an eclectic
group of I would call themfriends at this point.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
I would call them friends at this point, and there
was no rhyme or podcast.
Your Brand Amplified andhopefully for this one, as it
continues developing as wellthat the more we can have.
Yes, we're talking business.
Yes, we're talking strategy.
Yes, we're talking about all ofthis, but we're doing it in a
really personal fashion.
It's not just rote right andgiving this answer and that's
the end.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
Yes, I'm not really a fan of those kinds of podcasts
where the host emails thequestions to the guest
beforehand and we just read themoff as though we're playing
ping pong.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Yes, yeah, it doesn't add the same value.
I don't think.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
No, yeah, I love the conversations that could take
any which direction.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Exactly Well and through your work, you know,
having this platform that you'venow stepped back from, but
you're still involved with beingable to have these
conversations and talk to peopleabout what's going on right now
in industry, seeing what yourstudents are doing right and how
they are taking in yourinformation, but then also how
(17:26):
they're communicating with you,what they're seeing in their
different demographics.
And then you know now alsohaving your coaching business
international and then salesprofessionals you're getting to
see so much of the microcosm ofsales and how people are
responding to things what theyreally need to learn.
(17:46):
So I'd love to hear a littlebit about what things students
and early career professionalsreally need to think about when
they're looking at their futurecareers, looking at, perhaps,
sales positions, and I know thatthis is where branding can also
play a role.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
Absolutely so.
First, what I'm going to do foryou is I'm going to give your
students the secret to successin life.
That was one of my laterquestions, but yes, that's all
right because I love to sharewith them, as though anybody
could possibly know what it is,but I like to share it in this
context.
The secret to success in lifeis not simply about what you
(18:26):
know.
You could know everything, butif you know nobody, how does
anybody know you know anything?
The secret to success in life,however, is not just about who
you know.
You could know everybody, butif they know you know nothing,
are you someone, someone worthknowing?
The secret to success in lifeis about who knows you for what
(18:49):
you know.
Your job, then, is to make suremore and more people know you
for what you want to be knownfor, and the easiest way to do
that start by asking them whatthey want to be known for.
Start the conversation.
They'll reciprocate.
(19:11):
I was just telling my studentsin my intro to marketing class,
about two weeks ago now, eachand every one of them should be
starting a podcast.
Yes, they all have a voice,they all have a point of view,
they all have insights.
If your job is to make suremore and more people know you
(19:32):
for what you want to be knownfor, a podcast is the perfect
vehicle to do exactly that, andit is not a heavy lift.
That and it is not a heavy liftit is one of the easiest things
to step into.
(19:52):
If you have a laptop or evenjust a cell phone, you can get
involved in podcasting verysimply, very easily, very
inexpensively.
Yes, you can blow it out withall of these other tools and
gear and all that other stuff,but I find that people use those
as excuses, not true barriersto entry.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Yeah, I actually have a podcast course starting in
the fall that I had beendeveloping and finally turned in
the final, final syllabus withall of the course, assignments
and weeks and everything totallymapped out.
You know, things will change alittle bit probably as other
things develop I mean dependingon what guests or what weeks I
bring guests in.
But I'm really excited about itbecause it's podcasting for
(20:40):
brand building and this goesright along with.
You need to establish yourpersonal brand early in and
often that could mean starting aLinkedIn newsletter, even if
you don't feel like you know alot because there are not that
many newsletters.
I think the statistic is fiveto six percent of people on
LinkedIn are actually creatingnew content for LinkedIn.
(21:01):
You've obviously been doingthis for quite a while.
But for students I say whydon't you just start that now?
You have an opinion or aperspective that other people do
want to hear, right.
You have an opinion or aperspective that other people do
want to hear right Because theywant to know what your
generation is thinking about.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Ai, sales, marketing, digital, social, whatever it is
and just because you don'tnecessarily have all the answers
doesn't mean you can't putyourself out there.
Exactly, some of the bestpeople putting content out there
are just asking good questions,and if you can find a way to do
that or I'd love to talk to mystudents about building up their
LinkedIn presence so findsomething that you're interested
(21:42):
in an article, a video, aTikTok and share it.
Share it with the TLDR, shareit with the takeaway, share it
with the light bulb moment itleft for you, share it with the.
Here's a 30 minute video on SEOthat you should not watch, and
(22:06):
here's why You've just saved me30 minutes.
I appreciate that.
Just saved me 30 minutes, Iappreciate that.
But if you're going to consumethe content, give me two minutes
worth of feedback on that.
And then you've gone out andyou've done the scanning for me
and you've brought to me morethings that I'm interested in.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Right, yeah, yeah.
That's a really good pointbecause every week I get to read
the participation takeawaysfrom each of my students,
whether they were in the livesession or they had to miss it
and watch the replay and I loveseeing the connections they make
in their own personal examples,their own professions, things
(22:47):
that they can take to theirbusinesses that they work in or
that they can they're thinkingof in new ways, and then the
questions that come out of it.
Those could easily become postsfor linkedin, absolutely in my
digital media.
You know, course, blah blah.
We talked about this and here'swhat I didn't know that I think
everybody my age should know.
(23:07):
Now, right, like this week, wewere talking about cdns and ISPs
and connection and broadbandaccessibility, net neutrality,
but then I also brought conceptof the black swan, the gray
rhino, and I said if you hearsomebody in your company using
these concepts, you now knowwhat they are and you can chime
(23:27):
in and they will be reallysurprised that you know these
concepts.
And here are.
You know, here's a book thatyou can read to learn more, or
you can also just Google it andfind out more information and a
lot of them that was one oftheir key takeaways is wow, this
is something I can use in mycareer and that will have real
tangible value.
And it doesn't just apply, youknow we're talking about in the
(23:48):
concept of all of the underseacables that break communication,
because 100 undersea cables godown.
You know getting really wonkyinto that, but they were able to
also see how it translates intoother parts of their lives and
businesses and that was reallywonderful to see about their
(24:13):
brand building and forcorporates.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
One other reason I encourage my students to start a
podcast is because it's also anincredible set of transferable
skills and a lot of companieswant to be in that space, want
to be broadcasting, want to havepodcasts and so on and so forth
, but just don't know where tobegin.
If you learn the ropes whileyou're going through school and
(24:37):
then bring that to yourinterview for your first job, no
, you're still not going to bethat mega influencer.
But that wasn't the point.
The point was now you havesomething that you can talk
about in that job interview thatsets you apart from everyone
else who is sitting back and notdoing that.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Yeah, yeah, it just makes me think of another
conversation I was having withsomebody who is a senior VP of
communications and marketing foran IT business that works in DC
mostly government contractsbusiness that works in DC,
mostly government contracts butshe was sharing her experience
of getting into social media andbeing the intern who knows how
to do things on social mediawhen nobody else knew how to do
(25:19):
them.
So you're just furtherillustrating that point.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
Exactly.
These are the tools of thetrade today, and if you know how
to use them and you are keepingup with how rapidly they are
evolving, that is an incrediblyvaluable skill that you are
bringing to those that areclamoring for it.
Sometimes they don't even knowthat that's what they want,
(25:46):
right, and now we're all the wayfull circle back to sales.
Yep.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Oh my gosh.
What are some of the biggestmistakes people do make when
they are trying to sellthemselves?
Sell a product, sell a service?
Speaker 3 (26:02):
It'll sound crazy, but when you are in a job
interview, it's not about you.
When you're putting yourLinkedIn profile together, it's
not about you.
When you're putting yourLinkedIn profile together, it's
not about you.
When you're in a sales role,it's not about you or your
(26:23):
product.
It's about your audience.
So, Rob, what do you mean?
That's just crazy.
How could I possibly have myjob interview, my resume, my
cover letter, not be about me?
It's all about me.
Well, they're not looking tohire you.
They're, frankly, not lookingto hire anybody.
If they could get the tasksdone without having to have
(26:46):
somebody do them, they wouldlove that.
What they have is a problemthat needs solved, and what
they've determined is it willtake a person in a role to solve
that.
What you want to do is showthem that you can solve that.
How do you do that in yourcover letter?
(27:08):
In your cover letter, they havemapped it out for you.
In their job description,they've told you exactly what
you will be doing and exactlywhat skill sets you need to
qualify for this.
Custom tailor your cover letterto pull out from your resume.
(27:28):
Now your resume can be standard.
I know these days, a lot ofpeople will drop the job
description into chat, gpt andthe like and ask it to spit out
a resume.
I'm not suggesting that.
I'm suggesting your resume isyour resume, but your cover
letter absolutely could becustomized to do that.
Your LinkedIn profile should bebuyer-centric.
(27:50):
Your LinkedIn profile should bebuyer centric.
What do I mean by that?
It should talk to the peoplethat you hope to talk to
directly in terms of what arethe things that they're
interested in, what are thethings that they're trying to
solve and what is yourexperience in that realm?
Is your experience in thatrealm?
(28:10):
It's crazy when you think thejob interview isn't about you,
but it's not.
It's about them and the problemthey need solving.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
That is where technology can come in handy, I
think, because you can put inthe job description and you can
put in some of your knowledgeand you can ask what questions
should I ask in an interview?
Because I think people oftenforget or freeze in the
interview process and whenthey're asked that question what
questions do you have for us?
They think more tactically Iknow I've made that mistake in
the past how much time to getoff?
(28:47):
What kind of systems do you usethis?
And that they're not asking thestrategic questions that
somebody is looking for.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
They ask those tactical questions because they
know they need to ask questionsand they don't know what to ask.
I phrase it like this youshould not be asking the
question if, first and foremost,the information is publicly
available.
Don't ask them about theircompany if it's on their website
(29:17):
.
You should not ask a questionabout the hours that they
operate, for example, unlessthat is a critical answer to you
making a decision whether thisis the right employer for you.
More to the point is ask thingsalong the lines of well, how is
(29:40):
performance measured?
How have others in this roledone?
And things that really justspark the conversation.
It really just spark theconversation.
The plus one to that is if youcan ask a question that leads to
where you know you have astrength.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Okay, yeah, so then you tie it back.
The other thing that you said,that when we're writing things,
we're writing for our audience,not for ourselves.
That's also the argument I makewhen people say, oh, I don't
want to be interviewed, I don'twant to start a podcast, I'm not
comfortable.
It's not about you, it's aboutwhat you can offer to the
audience.
It's about what you can share,how you can help give somebody
(30:21):
an idea, a spark, something thatis strategy, right that they
can then utilize to make theirlife or their business, or both,
a little bit easier, a littlebit better.
You know they have a little bitmore knowledge.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Absolutely.
It's so interesting, as you saythat, because I've never
verbalized this before, but I'vealways thought it.
As I'm sitting on podcasts andlive shows, whether I'm the host
or being interviewed, I'malways thinking of that person
who, two weeks from now, twomonths from now, has their
earbuds in while they're on thetrain.
(30:55):
Hi, I'm talking to you rightnow.
I'm visualizing you and whatyou're thinking, and I'm trying
to call out the things thatmatter to you.
I know the secret to success inlife, for example, but you
didn't, so I wanted to make surethat we talked about that point
, I know, to make sure that thecover letter is geared towards
(31:19):
them, not you.
I want to bring to you thingsthat are maybe different from
what you've heard before, and ifone of these crazy ideas that
I'm sharing sparks a new andunique thought in you you, the
listener, not you.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Annika.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
Right, then I think we've done our job.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Well, let's be clear Every time I interview somebody,
I also walk away with an ahamoment.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
Oh, most definitely.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Or a piece of inspiration.
That's why I also listen to mypodcast back.
It's not just for the editingor to see what.
I also like to see what ads arebeing served, to see if and so
I can go.
Huh, well, I wonder why that adis on there.
Oh, or they played that adtwice on this episode, or?
Oh, that one's a really goodmatch, Right?
Oh, that one's a really goodmatch, Right.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
But I also get to hear it with fresh ears, because
I'm not in this role where I'mthinking about what am I going
to ask, or you know whichwebsite am I going to lead
people to?
How do I fit everything you dointo this time period that we
have together the ads?
I was having a conversationwith a colleague, mutual
connection, greg Wasserman.
He and I were talking about adsjust last week and one of the
things that many people don'trealize is the ad that you hear
(32:46):
in the same podcast will be verydifferent from the ad that I
hear.
Those ads are served based onthe listener, not a platform.
So if you are offended at aparticular ad that's being
broadcast, it very well could beserved based on your web search
history or location or whateverthe case may be.
(33:09):
So it was just an interestingway to think about.
Oh yeah, even when we thinkwe're having the same experience
, it's a very differentexperience for each of us.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
Yeah, there are some ads that I know were not
tailored to me, that I thinkthey just slapped on episodes
because, for instance,interviewing somebody in the
South and then hearing a JohnDeere tractor just slapped on
episodes because, for instance,interviewing somebody in the
South who you know and thenhearing a John Deere tractor
where I'm living in an urbanarea.
So there are a few of thosethat slip through, but it is an
(33:42):
interesting thing to think about.
I'm just going to ask.
Right now I'm looking at yourwebsite, the-isporg forward
slash, nextgen forward slashright.
That is a website that studentscan go to Easiest one to find
us is yes, isp the-isporg.
(34:04):
Yeah, fantastic, and we'll alsohave that in the show notes.
But, rob, I want to ask do youhave any last words of wisdom
that you want to share with ourstudents, our alums, professors,
anybody else who's listening,who's really interested in the
digital landscape, learningthese skills and tools?
Speaker 3 (34:24):
I will tell you this.
I often speak of it gliblyEveryone should have a podcast.
Everyone should be posting onLinkedIn.
I am a self-proclaimedintrovert.
I know that this is not easyfor everyone.
I also know that I'm five yearsahead of somebody today who has
(34:45):
not done anything in thatregard.
But think of it this way thereare certain things in life that
you want to accomplish andnobody has accomplished anything
except with and through otherpeople.
Putting yourself out there isone of the ways that allows you
(35:07):
to accomplish those things thatyou're looking to accomplish.
What I'm going to do after thisinterview I'm going to go find
a quiet, dark room and sit downfor a little while and
decompress, but get the courageup to just do from zero to one,
that one little thing, and thenfrom one to two and maybe two is
(35:29):
as far as it goes for a whileand then two to four and so on.
Yeah, but that zero to one isthat hardest step, and I'm here
to tell you that it's absolutelyworth it.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
Better words for never spoken.
Thank you so much.
It's always lovely to see you,rob, likewise Looking forward to
continuing our conversations,and thank you to everybody who's
watching or listening to thisepisode of Mediascape Insights
from Digital Changemakers.
We will be back again next weekwith another amazing guest to
share their story.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
To learn more about the Master of Science in Digital
Media Management program, visitus on the web at dmmuscedu.
Welcome to Mediascape insights from digital
changemakers, a speaker seriesand podcast brought to you by
USC Annenberg's Digital MediaManagement Program.
Join us as we unlock thesecrets to success in an
increasingly digital world.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
When I can combine sales marketing, comms
strategies, personal branding,podcasting and professorship,
it's one of my favorite thingsto do, and my guest today, Rob
Durant, is in all of thoseworlds.
Rob, thank you for being here.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
It is so exciting to be here.
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Of course, let's get into all of the things.
You have the Institute forSales Professionals.
What is your mission behindthat organization?
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Thank you for asking.
We at the ISP have one goal toelevate the profession of sales.
When you think of a salesperson, what do you think of?
Speaker 2 (01:07):
There are a few things.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
One of them Exactly, and that's what we want to
change.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Yeah, I mean.
One of them is people beingrecruited off of social media,
put in sales positions getting ascript, not being really
trained, not really knowing theproduct or the brand message,
but just trying to make coldcall sales.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
My favorite sales training methodology and I say
this tongue in cheek is the onethat I experienced most of all,
and that is the day you're firsthired.
Hey, welcome, so glad to haveyou here.
Why don't you pick up a headsetand sit with them for an hour
and then pick up a phone and dothe same thing?
Yeah, that's not sales training.
So at the ISP, we're not asales training organization per
(01:52):
se, we're not a membershiporganization per se, we're kind
of an amalgam of all of theabove is bring together the best
practices and the best peopletogether, put forth the image of
sales professionals that we hadhoped was always there.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Yeah, I'll give you an example.
I may have shared this with youwhen we've had previous
conversations that one of myfirst jobs besides babysitting
was in Topeka, kansas.
I was 14, really wanted to work.
May have been 15 by the time Itook this job not quite sure and
I was cold calling people fromthe white pages to get their
(02:38):
carpets cleaned.
I was giving a script said okay,we're focused on this page or
this last name or whatever.
And if we made a sale which wasnot easy to do I did have
overcome a few people'sobjections, but you know, wasn't
really trained up in it.
We got to throw a dart at adartboard to see what our bonus
(02:59):
would be.
So again, everybody listening,this is not the way to train a
sales team.
You probably don't want to.
When you're picking up thephone, you probably don't want
to hear a 14 or 15 year oldtrying to make a sale.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
No, not really yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
So I think that what you're doing is critically
important.
What was the reason that youstarted it, what did you do
before or what are you stillcurrently doing, and what does
it look like?
Because I did see that you havecertifications.
You have a few other thingsthat you offer so that people
can actually be trainedappropriately and then also have
a stamp of approval that theycan show.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Right.
So when I say it's an amalgamof all of the above, it's really
(04:10):
the three C's that we focus on,and that is content,
certification and community.
And what we're looking to do isto establish the foundational
principles of what good saleslooks like.
And we have certification.
We are actually certifiedthrough the UK's Office of
Standards and Qualifications,ofqual.
Okay wow, and what that means iswe are audited annually to
ensure that we're not justrubber stamping members, that we
are providing robust andrigorous training and
(04:33):
development, and those trainingpartners that we work with are
doing likewise.
So it's more than just acertificate of attendance.
It's more than just acertificate of attendance.
It's more than just a receiptof having paid dues.
It is saying that if you'vecompleted this work through the
(04:55):
ISP, you have completed workthat actually drives you to
being better in the professionof sales.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Actually, drives you to being better in the
profession of sales.
What was the process like toget certified?
Because I can't imagine thatwas an easy endeavor.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
It's sort of ongoing, as they say.
We are audited annually.
In terms of the initial, theISP has been in existence for
(05:33):
almost 10 years in the UK.
We are just now rolling it intothe US and Canada and India and
Australia, New Zealand andSouth America and other
countries in Europe as well.
So we are taking it from anational organization to a
global organization Very nice.
Interestingly enough, my rolein rolling it out to the US is
(05:56):
starting with colleges anduniversities, especially those
that have formal sales trainingprograms.
What we're doing there ispartnering with those schools
and offering their studentsmembership at no additional
charge for two to four years,depending upon where they are in
their academic pursuit.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Wow, I mean that's certainly a large gift.
Are you able to do that out ofthe goodness of your hearts?
Because you have some greatcorporate partners that are
helping fund some of this?
Speaker 3 (06:26):
We don't have corporate partners funding that?
Not yet anyway.
We're certainly open to it, butwe're doing that because we are
mission driven, above all, andthere's a line from the
Untouchables Sean Connery talksabout when you have a bad apple,
(06:48):
you don't go back to the bunch,you go right to the tree.
Now that makes it seem like I'mputting salespeople in the bad
apple category, and that's notwhat I mean at all.
Instill in people while they'restill forming their perceptions
of sales.
Let's instill in them what thebest practices are and the
(07:10):
behaviors and so on.
We'll still be going out tocorporates and we'll still be
partnering with all sorts ofpainting partners throughout the
country and, frankly, worldwide.
But we're making this approachthrough colleges and
universities because we believeit will have impact for everyone
involved.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Yeah, yeah, I think a lot of people end up in sales
roles.
They get their business degreeright, they become an account
executive or some way.
They find their way into salesas one of their first positions.
But again, they're notnecessarily getting training in
that specific skill set and howto approach it.
This goes hand in hand with thework that you do as a professor
(07:54):
, right, and also with your owncoaching and consulting business
.
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
So what I do as a professor, I'm teaching intro to
marketing to predominantlyfreshmen and second years.
At Northeastern we have a fiveyear program.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
OK.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
And I'm also teaching things like consumer behavior
an introduction to socialenablement to MBA students.
So I'm very fortunate in that Iget to work with students at
all ends of the spectrum in thatregard.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Yeah, and did you create a lot of the courses that
you're teaching?
Speaker 3 (08:36):
The introduction to social enablement I did create.
That is based on the book thatI wrote, is based on the book
that I wrote, the SocialEnablement Blueprint and there
what I do is I show people howto leverage the social media
platforms to be approachable, besociable and be generous.
And the outcome of that is, asmore people know you for what
(09:01):
you want to be known for and asyou know people for what they
want to be known for,opportunity finds you.
It's not that ABC of Glen Gary,glen Ross, always be closing.
It's always be connecting,always be caring, because people
(09:22):
like doing business with peoplethey know, like and trust.
But in order for them to trustyou, in order for them to like
you, they need to first know you, and the social media platforms
allow us a tremendousopportunity to do that.
And I don't mean the broadcastelements of it.
(09:43):
I'm not talking about going outthere and becoming the next
influencer.
I'm talking about going outthere and having some influence,
sharing your ideas, sharingyour thoughts, having
conversations.
Frankly, that's how we met.
We met through social mediainteractions.
(10:05):
We were just both open toconnecting with new people and
who knows where the relationshipleads.
Sometimes, when you do it, itleads nowhere.
Sometimes, when you do it, itleads to tremendous
opportunities you never couldhave foreseen.
Could have foreseen.
But the key is if you do thisregularly enough and with
(10:27):
intention you make your own luck.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Absolutely Could not agree more, and that's it's
interesting, because we knowthat personalization, one-to-one
communication, being able toactually see the human behind
all of the titles, right is soimportant today.
But then we also I was just atan AI conference for two days.
That was all founders, CEOs,investors, some who were in the
AI world, some who neededtraining, because it's often the
(10:58):
people at the top who don'treally understand the technology
right.
It needs to really be bottom up.
Understand the technology,right, it needs to really be
bottom up.
But a lot of the tools that wewere talking about were
automations, right.
Things that would create yourmaterial for LinkedIn or
LinkedIn newsletter.
Ways for people to communicateto your chatbot that still
sounded like you and eventuallywill look like you, right,
(11:22):
Either by typing or by calling anumber and hearing your digital
voice.
How does that play into salestoday?
Because I've seen good and badexamples of using those kind of
technologies.
So I really want to get yourperspective on what can be
helpful, but what can also beharmful, and what we need to
keep in mind to keep that humantouch.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Thank you for asking.
I truly believe that we're onthe precipice of something big,
but we're not.
If it was a dating app, wouldyou want to talk to an AI bot of
(12:13):
me to decide whether or not togo out on a date?
No, you'd want to connect withthat authentic person.
I believe the social platformsshould be that.
They should be social.
There are things that AI canhelp with.
There are things thatautomation can help with, but
(12:34):
not the frontline things thatwe're seeing.
Ai can help me understand thesignal from the noise.
Ai can bring to me the latestchatter about problems that I
saw, because, as a salesperson,that's really my role is to help
(12:55):
people alleviate the problemsthat they have.
Now here's this problem in theindustry in the ether could go
out and provide an automatedresponse to that right away.
Okay, great, but you haven'tsold me on anything.
You've told me that you believethat you have the answer.
(13:19):
Why don't you instead have aconversation with me and dig
into what the real issues are,and that can't be done through
AI.
I know there will be plentythat say, oh yeah, our solution
does that.
I don't want to talk to yourbot.
Have your bot, call my bot andthey can do digital lunch
(13:39):
sometime.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Yeah, yeah, it's funny that you say that, though,
because eventually, we aregoing to have our own little
personal AI assistants, and theywill be doing that or planning
us, you know, planning ways forus to meet in person and
checking our schedules so thatwe it takes out some of the busy
work, you know, maybe, but westill, but hopefully will give
us time for more humanconnection.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
Exactly.
Yeah, I love it for thosethings.
Exactly, I love it for thosethings, those tasks that right
now are seemingly mundane buthave to be done by us.
(14:23):
No, they can be automated, butthe've got tools that are on my
end that are screening you out,whereas if we have a
conversation, there's no needfor anything to be screened out.
We're just having aconversation.
Yeah, it's not a sales pitch,it's not a discovery question or
(14:45):
discovery call.
It's just a conversation.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Yeah, let's go to your podcast.
Sure, because digital download.
You're the executive producer.
It is a very long-runningbusiness podcast.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
It is the longest-running weekly business
broadcast on LinkedIn Live.
Yeah, we've been going at it,for we'll be soon going into our
fifth year, so almostimmediately upon LinkedIn
offering people the ability tobroadcast live.
We were being a part of thatand I love it, because there's
(15:22):
really not much of a plot to it.
It's really just your weeklydose of water cooler talk.
We will bring a subject matterexpert on for an hour and talk
to them about their area ofexpertise.
Myself, I have stepped awayfrom hosting just because my
schedule this semester has beenbusy enough that I could not
(15:46):
commit to it.
I miss it, I do.
I miss the guys and the galsthat are on the panel and I
really miss the guests, becauseI got to meet such an eclectic
group of I would call themfriends at this point.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
I would call them friends at this point, and there
was no rhyme or podcast.
Your Brand Amplified andhopefully for this one, as it
continues developing as wellthat the more we can have.
Yes, we're talking business.
Yes, we're talking strategy.
Yes, we're talking about all ofthis, but we're doing it in a
really personal fashion.
It's not just rote right andgiving this answer and that's
the end.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
Yes, I'm not really a fan of those kinds of podcasts
where the host emails thequestions to the guest
beforehand and we just read themoff as though we're playing
ping pong.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Yes, yeah, it doesn't add the same value.
I don't think.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
No, yeah, I love the conversations that could take
any which direction.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Exactly Well and through your work, you know,
having this platform that you'venow stepped back from, but
you're still involved with beingable to have these
conversations and talk to peopleabout what's going on right now
in industry, seeing what yourstudents are doing right and how
they are taking in yourinformation, but then also how
(17:26):
they're communicating with you,what they're seeing in their
different demographics.
And then you know now alsohaving your coaching business
international and then salesprofessionals you're getting to
see so much of the microcosm ofsales and how people are
responding to things what theyreally need to learn.
(17:46):
So I'd love to hear a littlebit about what things students
and early career professionalsreally need to think about when
they're looking at their futurecareers, looking at, perhaps,
sales positions, and I know thatthis is where branding can also
play a role.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
Absolutely so.
First, what I'm going to do foryou is I'm going to give your
students the secret to successin life.
That was one of my laterquestions, but yes, that's all
right because I love to sharewith them, as though anybody
could possibly know what it is,but I like to share it in this
context.
The secret to success in lifeis not simply about what you
(18:26):
know.
You could know everything, butif you know nobody, how does
anybody know you know anything?
The secret to success in life,however, is not just about who
you know.
You could know everybody, butif they know you know nothing,
are you someone, someone worthknowing?
The secret to success in lifeis about who knows you for what
(18:49):
you know.
Your job, then, is to make suremore and more people know you
for what you want to be knownfor, and the easiest way to do
that start by asking them whatthey want to be known for.
Start the conversation.
They'll reciprocate.
(19:11):
I was just telling my studentsin my intro to marketing class,
about two weeks ago now, eachand every one of them should be
starting a podcast.
Yes, they all have a voice,they all have a point of view,
they all have insights.
If your job is to make suremore and more people know you
(19:32):
for what you want to be knownfor, a podcast is the perfect
vehicle to do exactly that, andit is not a heavy lift.
That and it is not a heavy liftit is one of the easiest things
to step into.
(19:52):
If you have a laptop or evenjust a cell phone, you can get
involved in podcasting verysimply, very easily, very
inexpensively.
Yes, you can blow it out withall of these other tools and
gear and all that other stuff,but I find that people use those
as excuses, not true barriersto entry.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Yeah, I actually have a podcast course starting in
the fall that I had beendeveloping and finally turned in
the final, final syllabus withall of the course, assignments
and weeks and everything totallymapped out.
You know, things will change alittle bit probably as other
things develop I mean dependingon what guests or what weeks I
bring guests in.
But I'm really excited about itbecause it's podcasting for
(20:40):
brand building and this goesright along with.
You need to establish yourpersonal brand early in and
often that could mean starting aLinkedIn newsletter, even if
you don't feel like you know alot because there are not that
many newsletters.
I think the statistic is fiveto six percent of people on
LinkedIn are actually creatingnew content for LinkedIn.
(21:01):
You've obviously been doingthis for quite a while.
But for students I say whydon't you just start that now?
You have an opinion or aperspective that other people do
want to hear, right.
You have an opinion or aperspective that other people do
want to hear right Because theywant to know what your
generation is thinking about.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Ai, sales, marketing, digital, social, whatever it is
and just because you don'tnecessarily have all the answers
doesn't mean you can't putyourself out there.
Exactly, some of the bestpeople putting content out there
are just asking good questions,and if you can find a way to do
that or I'd love to talk to mystudents about building up their
LinkedIn presence so findsomething that you're interested
(21:42):
in an article, a video, aTikTok and share it.
Share it with the TLDR, shareit with the takeaway, share it
with the light bulb moment itleft for you, share it with the.
Here's a 30 minute video on SEOthat you should not watch, and
(22:06):
here's why You've just saved me30 minutes.
I appreciate that.
Just saved me 30 minutes, Iappreciate that.
But if you're going to consumethe content, give me two minutes
worth of feedback on that.
And then you've gone out andyou've done the scanning for me
and you've brought to me morethings that I'm interested in.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Right, yeah, yeah.
That's a really good pointbecause every week I get to read
the participation takeawaysfrom each of my students,
whether they were in the livesession or they had to miss it
and watch the replay and I loveseeing the connections they make
in their own personal examples,their own professions, things
(22:47):
that they can take to theirbusinesses that they work in or
that they can they're thinkingof in new ways, and then the
questions that come out of it.
Those could easily become postsfor linkedin, absolutely in my
digital media.
You know, course, blah blah.
We talked about this and here'swhat I didn't know that I think
everybody my age should know.
(23:07):
Now, right, like this week, wewere talking about cdns and ISPs
and connection and broadbandaccessibility, net neutrality,
but then I also brought conceptof the black swan, the gray
rhino, and I said if you hearsomebody in your company using
these concepts, you now knowwhat they are and you can chime
(23:27):
in and they will be reallysurprised that you know these
concepts.
And here are.
You know, here's a book thatyou can read to learn more, or
you can also just Google it andfind out more information and a
lot of them that was one oftheir key takeaways is wow, this
is something I can use in mycareer and that will have real
tangible value.
And it doesn't just apply, youknow we're talking about in the
(23:48):
concept of all of the underseacables that break communication,
because 100 undersea cables godown.
You know getting really wonkyinto that, but they were able to
also see how it translates intoother parts of their lives and
businesses and that was reallywonderful to see about their
(24:13):
brand building and forcorporates.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
One other reason I encourage my students to start a
podcast is because it's also anincredible set of transferable
skills and a lot of companieswant to be in that space, want
to be broadcasting, want to havepodcasts and so on and so forth
, but just don't know where tobegin.
If you learn the ropes whileyou're going through school and
(24:37):
then bring that to yourinterview for your first job, no
, you're still not going to bethat mega influencer.
But that wasn't the point.
The point was now you havesomething that you can talk
about in that job interview thatsets you apart from everyone
else who is sitting back and notdoing that.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Yeah, yeah, it just makes me think of another
conversation I was having withsomebody who is a senior VP of
communications and marketing foran IT business that works in DC
mostly government contractsbusiness that works in DC,
mostly government contracts butshe was sharing her experience
of getting into social media andbeing the intern who knows how
to do things on social mediawhen nobody else knew how to do
(25:19):
them.
So you're just furtherillustrating that point.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
Exactly.
These are the tools of thetrade today, and if you know how
to use them and you are keepingup with how rapidly they are
evolving, that is an incrediblyvaluable skill that you are
bringing to those that areclamoring for it.
Sometimes they don't even knowthat that's what they want,
(25:46):
right, and now we're all the wayfull circle back to sales.
Yep.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Oh my gosh.
What are some of the biggestmistakes people do make when
they are trying to sellthemselves?
Sell a product, sell a service?
Speaker 3 (26:02):
It'll sound crazy, but when you are in a job
interview, it's not about you.
When you're putting yourLinkedIn profile together, it's
not about you.
When you're putting yourLinkedIn profile together, it's
not about you.
When you're in a sales role,it's not about you or your
(26:23):
product.
It's about your audience.
So, Rob, what do you mean?
That's just crazy.
How could I possibly have myjob interview, my resume, my
cover letter, not be about me?
It's all about me.
Well, they're not looking tohire you.
They're, frankly, not lookingto hire anybody.
If they could get the tasksdone without having to have
(26:46):
somebody do them, they wouldlove that.
What they have is a problemthat needs solved, and what
they've determined is it willtake a person in a role to solve
that.
What you want to do is showthem that you can solve that.
How do you do that in yourcover letter?
(27:08):
In your cover letter, they havemapped it out for you.
In their job description,they've told you exactly what
you will be doing and exactlywhat skill sets you need to
qualify for this.
Custom tailor your cover letterto pull out from your resume.
(27:28):
Now your resume can be standard.
I know these days, a lot ofpeople will drop the job
description into chat, gpt andthe like and ask it to spit out
a resume.
I'm not suggesting that.
I'm suggesting your resume isyour resume, but your cover
letter absolutely could becustomized to do that.
Your LinkedIn profile should bebuyer-centric.
(27:50):
Your LinkedIn profile should bebuyer centric.
What do I mean by that?
It should talk to the peoplethat you hope to talk to
directly in terms of what arethe things that they're
interested in, what are thethings that they're trying to
solve and what is yourexperience in that realm?
Is your experience in thatrealm?
(28:10):
It's crazy when you think thejob interview isn't about you,
but it's not.
It's about them and the problemthey need solving.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
That is where technology can come in handy, I
think, because you can put inthe job description and you can
put in some of your knowledgeand you can ask what questions
should I ask in an interview?
Because I think people oftenforget or freeze in the
interview process and whenthey're asked that question what
questions do you have for us?
They think more tactically Iknow I've made that mistake in
the past how much time to getoff?
(28:47):
What kind of systems do you usethis?
And that they're not asking thestrategic questions that
somebody is looking for.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
They ask those tactical questions because they
know they need to ask questionsand they don't know what to ask.
I phrase it like this youshould not be asking the
question if, first and foremost,the information is publicly
available.
Don't ask them about theircompany if it's on their website
(29:17):
.
You should not ask a questionabout the hours that they
operate, for example, unlessthat is a critical answer to you
making a decision whether thisis the right employer for you.
More to the point is ask thingsalong the lines of well, how is
(29:40):
performance measured?
How have others in this roledone?
And things that really justspark the conversation.
It really just spark theconversation.
The plus one to that is if youcan ask a question that leads to
where you know you have astrength.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Okay, yeah, so then you tie it back.
The other thing that you said,that when we're writing things,
we're writing for our audience,not for ourselves.
That's also the argument I makewhen people say, oh, I don't
want to be interviewed, I don'twant to start a podcast, I'm not
comfortable.
It's not about you, it's aboutwhat you can offer to the
audience.
It's about what you can share,how you can help give somebody
(30:21):
an idea, a spark, something thatis strategy, right that they
can then utilize to make theirlife or their business, or both,
a little bit easier, a littlebit better.
You know they have a little bitmore knowledge.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Absolutely.
It's so interesting, as you saythat, because I've never
verbalized this before, but I'vealways thought it.
As I'm sitting on podcasts andlive shows, whether I'm the host
or being interviewed, I'malways thinking of that person
who, two weeks from now, twomonths from now, has their
earbuds in while they're on thetrain.
(30:55):
Hi, I'm talking to you rightnow.
I'm visualizing you and whatyou're thinking, and I'm trying
to call out the things thatmatter to you.
I know the secret to success inlife, for example, but you
didn't, so I wanted to make surethat we talked about that point
, I know, to make sure that thecover letter is geared towards
(31:19):
them, not you.
I want to bring to you thingsthat are maybe different from
what you've heard before, and ifone of these crazy ideas that
I'm sharing sparks a new andunique thought in you you, the
listener, not you.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Annika.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
Right, then I think we've done our job.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Well, let's be clear Every time I interview somebody,
I also walk away with an ahamoment.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
Oh, most definitely.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Or a piece of inspiration.
That's why I also listen to mypodcast back.
It's not just for the editingor to see what.
I also like to see what ads arebeing served, to see if and so
I can go.
Huh, well, I wonder why that adis on there.
Oh, or they played that adtwice on this episode, or?
Oh, that one's a really goodmatch, Right?
Oh, that one's a really goodmatch, Right.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
But I also get to hear it with fresh ears, because
I'm not in this role where I'mthinking about what am I going
to ask, or you know whichwebsite am I going to lead
people to?
How do I fit everything you dointo this time period that we
have together the ads?
I was having a conversationwith a colleague, mutual
connection, greg Wasserman.
He and I were talking about adsjust last week and one of the
things that many people don'trealize is the ad that you hear
(32:46):
in the same podcast will be verydifferent from the ad that I
hear.
Those ads are served based onthe listener, not a platform.
So if you are offended at aparticular ad that's being
broadcast, it very well could beserved based on your web search
history or location or whateverthe case may be.
(33:09):
So it was just an interestingway to think about.
Oh yeah, even when we thinkwe're having the same experience
, it's a very differentexperience for each of us.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
Yeah, there are some ads that I know were not
tailored to me, that I thinkthey just slapped on episodes
because, for instance,interviewing somebody in the
South and then hearing a JohnDeere tractor just slapped on
episodes because, for instance,interviewing somebody in the
South who you know and thenhearing a John Deere tractor
where I'm living in an urbanarea.
So there are a few of thosethat slip through, but it is an
(33:42):
interesting thing to think about.
I'm just going to ask.
Right now I'm looking at yourwebsite, the-isporg forward
slash, nextgen forward slashright.
That is a website that studentscan go to Easiest one to find
us is yes, isp the-isporg.
(34:04):
Yeah, fantastic, and we'll alsohave that in the show notes.
But, rob, I want to ask do youhave any last words of wisdom
that you want to share with ourstudents, our alums, professors,
anybody else who's listening,who's really interested in the
digital landscape, learningthese skills and tools?
Speaker 3 (34:24):
I will tell you this.
I often speak of it gliblyEveryone should have a podcast.
Everyone should be posting onLinkedIn.
I am a self-proclaimedintrovert.
I know that this is not easyfor everyone.
I also know that I'm five yearsahead of somebody today who has
(34:45):
not done anything in thatregard.
But think of it this way thereare certain things in life that
you want to accomplish andnobody has accomplished anything
except with and through otherpeople.
Putting yourself out there isone of the ways that allows you
(35:07):
to accomplish those things thatyou're looking to accomplish.
What I'm going to do after thisinterview I'm going to go find
a quiet, dark room and sit downfor a little while and
decompress, but get the courageup to just do from zero to one,
that one little thing, and thenfrom one to two and maybe two is
(35:29):
as far as it goes for a whileand then two to four and so on.
Yeah, but that zero to one isthat hardest step, and I'm here
to tell you that it's absolutelyworth it.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
Better words for never spoken.
Thank you so much.
It's always lovely to see you,rob, likewise Looking forward to
continuing our conversations,and thank you to everybody who's
watching or listening to thisepisode of Mediascape Insights
from Digital Changemakers.
We will be back again next weekwith another amazing guest to
share their story.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
To learn more about the Master of Science in Digital
Media Management program, visitus on the web at dmmuscedu.
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