July 16, 2025 • 39 mins
From text-based browsers to generative AI, the digital marketing landscape has transformed dramatically since the 1990s. Eric Layland, Chief Executive of the Matters Group, takes us on a journey through this evolution while revealing timeless principles that still guide effective marketing today.
Leyland's career began in 1996 when he purchased "Internet in a Box" from CompUSA and discovered the power of electronic communication across vast distances. His fascination with data began even earlier—collecting baseball cards and analyzing stats rather than partying on Friday nights. This foundation prepared him for a career where he would witness the full arc of digital marketing's development.
What's most striking about our conversation is Layland's ability to identify patterns that have come full circle. The early bulletin boards and chat rooms where people found their tribes have evolved into today's highly personalized digital experiences. Yet the fundamental human desire to be recognized as an individual remains constant. As Layland notes, "Finding your tribe has stayed the same—these fundamental truths of wanting to be recognized as an individual."
The discussion takes a compelling turn when Layland articulates his "love-hate relationship with performance marketing." While metrics matter, he advocates moving beyond raw data to insights, knowledge, and wisdom. True marketing excellence comes from understanding the underlying motivations that drive human behavior, not just optimizing conversion rates.
Perhaps most illuminating is Layland's revelation about SEO's origins in accessibility principles—creating alt text descriptions to help visually impaired users navigate content, not primarily for search rankings. This example perfectly illustrates how marketing practices that begin with human-centered intentions can sometimes drift toward pure performance metrics.
As organizations navigate AI implementation, Layland urges them to first clarify their values and mission before determining how technology fits their strategy. The "translator role" becomes crucial here—bridging the gap between technical capabilities, C-suite priorities, and customer needs.
For aspiring digital marketers, Layland offers a powerful North Star: "If you can operate where truth is your guiding light, you'll develop trust." In an era of rapid technological change, this principle provides an ethical foundation that transcends any specific tool or platform.
This podcast is proudly sponsored by USC Annenberg’s Master of Science in Digital Media Management (MSDMM) program. An online master’s designed to prepare practitioners to understand the evolving media landscape, make data-driven and ethical decisions, and build a more equitable future by leading diverse teams with the technical, artistic, analytical, and production skills needed to create engaging content and technologies for the global marketplace. Learn more or apply today at https://dmm.usc.edu.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Mediascape insights from digital
changemakers, a speaker seriesand podcast brought to you by
USC Annenberg's Digital MediaManagement Program.
Join us as we unlock thesecrets to success in an
increasingly digital world.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
I always love having people on the show who have seen
digital transformation sincethe beginning.
I remember those early dot-comdays when there weren't a lot of
choices, and my guest today,eric Leyland, certainly
remembers them.
Eric, thank you so much forjoining me on Mediascape.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Monica, it's great to be here and hopefully I can
lend something that some otherfolks if nothing else, maybe
it'll conjure up a memory oftimes gone past where things
were a little bit morechallenging to get through and
work through.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Yeah, well, let's start there.
You are the chief executive ofthe Matters Group.
I'm really excited to learnmore about what you do now, but
you have seen all of theseshifts.
So, all of these shifts youwere working at organizations
when we're very early days ofthe human side, the consumer
side of the Internet, shall wesay.
So will you talk a little bit?
Speaker 3 (01:23):
about how you got into the field, and then you
know what has happened to getyou to have your own
organization now.
Sure, so you know, I honestly Igot out.
This is going way back, so alittle bit in the way back
machine.
But when I got out of schoolSan Diego State, 92-ish, 93, I
wasn't really sure what I wantedto do.
I had a good degree inmarketing.
I knew I was going to move upto Seattle because I had a
relationship with a young ladywho I'm still with to this day,
(01:44):
because I had a relationshipwith a young lady who I'm still
with to this day 30-ish, someodd years later.
But it would be in Seattle.
But I had no job to get to.
So I ended up gravitatingtowards an organization that was
in the manufacturing space ofelectronic test and measurement
equipment.
I honestly had no businessbeing in that role.
I did not know a thing aboutengineering or electronics.
But what I did figure out,probably from the marketing
(02:07):
background, was if you can speakthe language of the audience,
you can communicate with them.
And so I actually spent myevenings at UW University of
Washington's engineering libraryjust schooling up really
quickly on the terminology ofelectronics and test and
measurement equipment, and itwas during that time that I got
introduced to network testequipment and I thought it was
(02:30):
just phenomenal the way that youcould interact with other
organizations across the country, across the globe,
electronically.
And this was before the WorldWide Web came out and there were
some ways to interact withthese text-based communication
and networks.
But it wasn't real easy.
You had there were a couple of.
I don't know if anybody willever remember these, but there
were two text-based browsers inthe early 90s, one called Archie
(02:53):
and I think the second versionwas called Veronica, based upon
the very old comic strip Soon.
After that, mosaic came out andI think that was the first
graphical browser.
The first sort of product Ibought was called Internet in a
Box.
I don't know if anybodyremembers that, but it was
(03:16):
purchased at the old CompUSAstore up in Montlake Terrace
here in Washington.
But anyways, the point was thatI got enamored with the way
that you could communicateelectronically over vast
distances and to me immediatelythings started to connect.
Very shortly after that I wasin this manufacturing company
selling this equipment andalthough I loved it, it wasn't
where I saw things going and atthat time, early 96, the
(03:40):
internet in Seattle was juststarting to get going.
There was, I wouldn't say,really even the VC team had
connected with Seattle yet.
But there were little startupsstarting to pop up and so I just
took the first job of one thatoffered me one and I said I'm
diving in and that was the start.
Back in there, my first day wasSeptember 6th 1996.
(04:05):
Wow 1996, that's whyth 1996.
Wow 1996.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
That's why I remember it Amazing.
I mean, I remember the dot-comearly days.
I worked in magazine publishing.
I worked at Future US, whichpublished Business 2.0.
Oh, I remember that.
Yeah, so I worked on otherpublications, but I do remember
those early days and it'sinteresting to think about how
(04:29):
things go full circle in someways.
We were going into chat roomsto find fans for different
publications video gamepublications, music and now
everybody's forming their ownchat rooms right by creating
different groups and seminarsand things online.
So there are things that aretime tested, that still exist,
and we're seeing a lot of thatin the digital ecosystem.
(04:51):
I feel like the things that wedo, going from the early days of
the internet to figuring outhow to do advertising,
e-commerce, right till now we'reusing AI, agentic AI.
So a lot of that stuff haschanged, but a lot of the
strategies, the tactics, theother things that you have to
learn stay the same Having thatfoundational business expertise
(05:12):
which you did have through yourdegree and through that
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
It's interesting is that I'm going way back in the
day when they had, you know,bulletin board systems that
people would similar to whatyou're saying, you know these
small groups, chat rooms, andeven back then it was sort of
like finding your tribe.
Who are the people that arelike me, that have a similar
interest?
And then I think the dot combubble, sort of like push things
(05:39):
to like just get bigger, faster, aggregate audiences.
Sort of like push things tolike just get bigger, faster,
aggregate audiences.
But I think it's come fullcircle to your point in that
again, finding your tribe,finding that you know we're
talking about one-to-onepersonalization and you know
very delivering very uniqueexperiences at an individual
level.
So it's kind of to your point.
(06:02):
It has come back and it'sstayed the same sort of these
fundamental truths where I thinkas and it gets beyond sort of
marketing and certainly beyonddigital marketing but just to be
a human, I think you want to berecognized as an individual,
and that is kind of theunderlying theme that I've kind
of found myself.
I look back.
Probably preparing for thisinterview was like you know,
what have I done?
And a lot of it has been rootedin data, but understanding what
(06:25):
that data means to themarketing organization, but in a
way that they can connectbetter to that audience by
understanding what motivatesthat individual to make the
decisions they make throughouttheir life, whether it's
purchasing something or justtake it in action.
So it is interesting that youknow some of these things that
(06:45):
we maybe talk about on a cursorylevel about business and
digital marketing stuff, butthere's fundamental elements of
humanity in there.
If you dig hard enough and digdeep enough, you'll find them.
But yeah, it's an interestingspace to be in and it's one
that's been very exciting, and Ilove the constant change,
although it can be frustratingand we're going through a big
(07:07):
wave now of things changing.
So it's an interesting place tobe and it's a fun place to be
too.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Yeah, it's fun to be able to learn new things, even
if you've been in the industryfor a while, and learn how to
properly apply them tobusinesses that we work for and
work with right, and our ownbusinesses as well.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
When I started out in thedigital space, we were with
again what was maybe one of theearliest direct marketing
agencies that used completelysolely digital channels to do
outreach to clients.
But early stage of doing A-Btesting before we really called
(07:51):
it A-B testing, just like, oh Ihave an idea for some creative
and someone else has anotheridea, well, let's run these and
see if we can do a little bit ofsplit testing.
But that evolved into reallyunderstanding that.
That evolved into reallyunderstanding that, wow, these
data points that we get, theytell a story and if we can
derive that sort of again theunderlying motivations of what
(08:13):
that real story is about, we canend up delivering some real
value to whether it's anindividual or another
organization we're selling toand that's that.
Again, I'm going to be datingmyself.
But going back into the dot-comdays and then the 2000s of when
really what was or has becomeGoogle Analytics kind of this
(08:37):
new tool that was out there toshow us what people were doing
on our sites not just a statscounter, but giving some deeper
level of insights, what contentthey were looking at, how long
they were engaged with it thatkind of then opened my eyes and,
I will admit, as a nerdyteenager I was enamored with
baseball.
I liked to play the game, butit was really the stats behind
(08:58):
it.
I collected baseball cards foreons and I didn't go out to
party on a Friday night.
I hung out with some nerdyfriends and played simulation
games that were based on statsfor baseball like really geeky,
nerdy stuff, became a precursorto where I am now.
But you know, but leveragingdata to get an understanding of
(09:19):
what's happening, but more thanthat, maybe at a higher level,
some wisdom and some bestguidance on how to conduct
oneself, based upon data, notjust.
You know, I have a little bit ofa love-hate relationship with
the performance marketing.
That marketing is about growthand delivering value.
(09:43):
But when we come to rely onlyon the numbers, only on the data
, and just at that point, notmoving into insights, but when
you start to move into insightsand you start to look at what
that data means and with thestory that it tells, and you
start to build up to not onlydata insights but knowledge and
(10:05):
understanding and wisdom, that'swhen I think you it sounds
corny, but maybe a level ofenlightenment from a marketing
perspective and I think mostmarketers and again.
That's why I have a little bitof this love-hate relationship
with performance marketing.
Most marketers, I think, wantto deliver real value.
They want to be associated witha product or a service or an
(10:28):
initiative that the recipient ofthe message likes and said,
yeah, I feel I want a part ofthat.
And you know there's an elementtoo that's just about growth
and you know, fill in thatpipeline and you know, work in
the numbers and it can be anumbers game, but I think there
should just be a little bit moreto it.
And then you know you get intosome areas of that would.
(10:50):
I guess you would consider thedistinction between performance
marketing and brand.
But I mean, to me, brand and Ilearned from a couple of fellows
that I worked with long ago whowere older than me but kind of
taught me the ropes, like, likewhat a brand really was, and it
was these underlying motivationsthat cause people to act, and
then tying that into data,understanding that and then
(11:13):
weaving that story together anddelivering value to them based
upon their values.
To me, that's where I think youcan be proud to be a marketer
that, yeah, I'm giving somethingto somebody that they really
like and enjoy and can feel goodabout that, rather than just we
sold another X, y, z, whateverit is, and our conversion rates
X and our cost of acquisition isY and OK, that that's wonderful
(11:35):
, but I think there's maybe alittle bit more that we could do
with that information than justsell stuff.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
You are so hitting the nail on the head.
The course I'm teaching rightnow at USC for the Digital Media
Management Program is aboutdigital media ad buying
measurement analytics, but wealso in that course we talk a
little bit about that.
But we also talk aboutstorytelling.
I brought in a case study of aclient that I worked on and how
we did AV testing and you knowwe did paid advertising for four
(12:05):
different campaigns to seewhich tagline resonated and
which campaign name and walkedthem through that process.
Now some of the students arevery sophisticated.
They've been in the field.
They're just trying to hone inskills even further.
Some are brand new to digital.
They might not even go intoadvertising or marketing.
They might be in production orsome other aspect to advertising
(12:26):
or marketing.
They might be in production orsome other aspect.
But yesterday we brought up anarticle about the Amazon
upfronts, because another fullcircle thing right, all the
streaming platforms were like wedon't need to do upfronts.
That's old news.
Now they're all doing upfrontsand they have schedules with
their shows.
And the fact that Amazon islayering on even more types of
advertising that interrupt theshows An example that they used
in the article that they used inthe article that they thought
(12:46):
was great was a show.
There was a heartfelt scenewhere a mom and daughter were
talking on a cell phone andT-Mobile ad would pop up and
talk about having thoseheartfelt conversations on
T-Mobile.
It gets ridiculous when westart thinking about so we can
analyze data and obviously theyhave huge numbers of.
There's a crossover betweenpeople who are watching Prime
(13:06):
Video and who are purchasing andhave intent purchase for the
brand awareness and engagement.
They can shut, throw out allthese metrics, but are those
really good for the consumer?
Are they really where we wantto see more advertising when
we're trying to like, decompress, right, just watch a show for a
little bit.
And so your point about youknow, yes, analytics, but really
(13:30):
it's about the humanization,the storytelling, that aspect of
it that really hits home withthe consumer and with our
prospects.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
I think so too, and, you know, I think it's maybe the
feeling that you're more than anumber, when somebody kind of
understand you and you get it,that they understand you, yeah.
So I don't think that anyonelikes to be considered just a
number.
I'm a conversion.
What's my lifetime value to you?
X Y Z corp.
But I just got to mention the,the algorithms.
(14:04):
I have not cut the cord yet,but I'm probably.
Most of my viewing on a bigscreen is from YouTube, and I
don't have the paid subscription, which I probably should as a
marketer, but the poor timing ofwhen ads come in, like right at
the cliffhanger scene.
You're like what?
Another ad for whatever Xfinityor whomever it is, but yeah,
(14:26):
it's like.
Yeah.
The thing is, though and I dotry and keep it in this context
that, especially with technologyand maybe even specific AI,
because I'm sure we'll get intothat topic in our conversation
here is that what we see todaygenerally, but not not in all
cases, but I think in general,it's the worst, it's going to be
, it's going to get better, andI think that those organizations
(14:50):
that do really pay attention towhat their brand means to their
audience and, really more sothan that what's important to
their audience outside the brand, just in general, like when you
start to again look at humansas being humans and that having
very complex personas.
We're all different, but that'skind of more important than
(15:12):
making sure you get that add-inat that right moment and
increase visible.
To me that's it's idealistic,but that's kind of what
marketing should be about.
And I granted I know you got tomake money.
You've got to, if you're public, appease the shareholders and
all that stuff, but it's niceknowing that maybe there's a
little bit more that you canstrive for.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Yeah, well, and that's the play between
marketing.
There's a lot of unethicalpractices, or practices that
people could consider unethical,right.
So how do you bring ethics intomarketing?
I think that's where theMatters Group.
You call yourself a marketingmodernization firm and I think
that's where you bring yourinsights in.
You're also an advisory councilmember for Harvard Business
(15:54):
Review.
You mentor right inentrepreneurship and AI and you
do all these other things togive back, but I think that we
need leaders who have theexperience but who also can talk
about.
Yeah, I've done all thesedifferent things, that we've
made a lot of money fordifferent organizations, but
what really matters is thepeople.
And let's think about how we'reshowing up with our brand
(16:14):
values every day, making surethat we're matching, that we're
customizing it to right ourpotential buyers, to right our
potential buyers.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
Yeah, and you know a couple of topics that kind of
I've become interested in andyou know, when our article comes
up I'll look into it, do alittle bit more, you know, dig
into the research.
But it's two things thatprobably aren't on the top 10
list of marketers, but it'sgovernance and data strategy and
(16:46):
they're sort of like they'rejust they're in the environment
that they were in.
Today and for, I'd say,probably the first two decades
of my career, I didn't reallythink about those two topics at
all.
They weren't in my vocabulary.
But then, looking to see toyour point about you, you know
there's some folks that havebeen less than ideal in how
(17:07):
they've handled data and howthey've been.
Data's been manipulated toreach customers or persuade
customers to act in a certainway.
But if we believe that, youknow, data is the the new oil or
electricity or whatever, or AIis the new electricity, those
analogies like okay, I see thatthese are important things,
(17:29):
these are important strategicassets to the corporation, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah,corporate speak.
But they can be used for goodand they can be used for bad.
And then the aspect ofgovernance, which for years I
thought, oh, this sounds boring,not interested, but then my
(17:49):
eyes opened up to how they worktogether to provide some
safeguards and guidance into howto become, ideally, that
marketer that thinks a bitbeyond the conversion rate and
the lifetime value.
And, as an organization, howmight we use the tool of
(18:11):
governance, the asset of dataand the various channels that we
reach our audience out to withour message?
How do we use this as a systemto just be a better participant
in the market and put on thewhite hat and be the good guys?
It's tempting and I don't thinksome of these organizations
(18:34):
that might wear the black hatintended to end up that way, but
there was possibly anopportunity that showed itself,
they pursued it and they wentdown that path.
But I do think that there areother tools that are out there
and I think then, when they aredone with the right intent, they
can deliver great things.
And I think that, again, one ofthe things that I would really
(18:54):
like to emphasize is that, again, I've been doing a lot of
self-studying lately, kind of inthis space of AI, data, data,
strategy and governance and howthat can be missed the
governance aspect and like, ohyeah, we've got the latest,
greatest thing, we've got thisnew AI tool.
It's going to go gangbusters,but did we stop and check and
(19:16):
just say is this the right thingto do According to our brand
whatever your brand may be butdoes it kind of fit within the
guardrails of who we want to beand what we want to be known as
in the markets that we serve,and so I think it's something
that's getting more traction,but I'd like to hear it more
often and elevated to some ofthe things about on the level of
(19:40):
like, brand strategy, customeracquisition strategy is just the
governance kind of gets pushedto the side because it's not the
cool, shiny thing.
It's like someone telling youhow you should actually behave
when no one's looking.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
But what's interesting is I do see, even
with nonprofit organizationsthat I volunteer with, that
people are saying, hey, we don'treally have an AI strategy.
We need to have one so thatpeople know what is acceptable
to put into.
If you have, whatever systemyou're using at home, Do you
have a subscription or are youusing a free version?
So what really do you want toput in and which ones are going
(20:16):
to safeguard your informationand which ones aren't?
And you did get a certificatefrom MIT in AI.
I'm studying AI right now atVillanova and I'm a big fan, but
I'm also a big fan of the humanelement and what we're going to
be able to do by using thesetools.
And I know this is obviously abig area privacy, security,
(20:36):
governance with artificialintelligence, Intelligence and
you have a great series ofarticles on LinkedIn that talk
about customer experience andhow AI can be a help or a
hindrance.
So I'd love to hear a littlebit about how your agency is
approaching generative AI andother AI.
You know machine learning alsointo your work streams for using
(20:58):
with your clients, and you knowyour overall thoughts around
this whole big new world.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
There's a lot of temptation out there to do
things and I think and I'm goingto kind of speak to the
enterprise organizations wherewe know AI is in the business
news and in general mainstreamnews everywhere, but it's
mainstream news is everywhere.
But the appearances is, whatI've seen is that the C-level
(21:27):
folks might not necessarilygrasp it and maybe in the big
picture, but not kind of thatlevel second, third layer, down,
and then some of the ideas thatare innovative come from the
team, either the aligned levelfolks or even the managers,
directors, et cetera, and theyhave some great ideas.
(21:48):
But there's sometimes there's adisconnect between where those
ideas are coming from and theleadership team that says, yeah,
let's, let's support this, yeah, let's support this, and then
not to hinger the financialtypes, the CFOs, in the
organization.
But they have kind of adifferent check and balance
(22:12):
against the marketing side.
And wanting to grow revenue,it's a good thing, wanting to
grow the customer base,certainly a good thing, and
deliver value to all thestakeholders in the organization
is also generally a good thing,and deliver value to all the
stakeholders in the organizationis also generally a good thing.
But I do think that sometimesthere's too much attention and
(22:32):
this is maybe driven byheadlines somewhat that AI is
purely a growth or efficiencyoption.
We're either going to beputting optimizing our channels
that are driving those initialconversions whether it's leads
or actual customers ortransactions and our sole intent
(22:53):
or objective is to raise thevalue of our share price for our
shareholders.
Again, that's not necessarily abad thing, but I don't think it
should be the overriding thing.
I should have taken morefinance classes in college but I
didn't do that.
But I understand it's important, but I think that there's
(23:19):
looking at the customerexperience and how that's become
much, much more important andis it's getting much more
visibility than if you look back10 years or so.
Having the financialperspective is good, but at what
point do you say we're notgoing to go the extra step for
the customer, even though theywant it?
(23:39):
We can deliver it and we can doso in a realistic manner, but
it doesn't push the whether it'srevenues, roi, whatever the
financial metric is it doesn'tpush that enough as some of
these other levers that we canpush or pull.
That's where I would like tocome in to our clients and say
(24:00):
you know what?
Let's talk about who you are asan organization.
What's the personality of theorganization?
Again, we know all these rolesare important, but as someone
that is a leader and I would saynot just as a chief executive
officer, but that leadershipteam agree on who you are as a
brand.
And going back to mission andvalues types of stuff, like the
(24:23):
decision you're making tomaximize shareholder value, does
that truly align with yourvalues and mission in terms of
what you say you deliver to youraudience?
Because probably your audiencearen't shareholders it is a
constituency but your, yourcustomers, probably aren't
shareholders.
And I would argue that if youcan satisfy your customers first
(24:48):
, prioritize them first, thoseshareholders will become
satisfied in time.
Yeah, they'll get their turn atthe table, but yeah, so that's
in terms of what we do for ourclients.
It is really trying to sometimeslevel set and say, hey, let's
step back a bit.
Yes, we can go in thisdirection, we can develop an AI
(25:10):
strategy for you, we can makesure your team's literate and
understanding you guys are readyto take on this, but let's
understand where we want to gofirst and not just go to that
next and near-term goal andobjective, but the longer-term
goal and objective, and I thinkthat's in business and it seems
(25:36):
like maybe with the digitalspace really sort of being on
par now with the physical space,digital used to be this little
like checkbox item like makesure we got the website done,
make sure we got those Googleads running, make sure we've got
SEO.
No, Okay, now that yourbusiness is digital business and
so you've got a lot of toolsavailable, but how you use those
tools to deliver the value thatyou say you want to do, let's
(25:56):
just make sure we're checkingthat and that we are making sure
that we're asking the rightquestions of our customers that
ultimately are the ones thatit's their money that ultimately
goes to the shareholders.
So let's make sure that we'retaking care of them first and
that we're doing so in a waythat's aligned with what we say
are our values and our missionof how we're going to deliver
(26:19):
this value.
So that's kind of how weapproach things.
It's not nuts and bolts, it is.
So that's kind of how weapproach things.
It's not nuts and bolts.
It is a little bit kind ofelevated, a little bit.
You know, sometimes pie in thesky.
We'd love for the client toshift your focus from a peer
financial gain to deliveringsomething that's a little, maybe
more fuzzy to measure, but Ithink that that's important and
(26:42):
there is a balance.
I understand that there's abalance, but it's just.
Sometimes I think we have beenlosing a bit of how we look at
how we serve each other.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Yeah, yeah.
That's a really, reallyimportant point and it brings me
back to something you weretalking about early on.
Well, you started this job,this company.
You would go in and go into theengineering library and get to
learn the terms.
So that role today is reallythe translator right.
So this new role that's beingcreated out of our world of AI
(27:16):
and more tech, so that you arethe person who can decipher
between the C-suite, theengineers or the other team
members who are using things inthe field and need to have the
right tool set and need theC-suite to understand, and the
C-suite, of course, coming inwanting to be concerned about
share prices and theshareholders, and so finding
that connection point, thatmiddle ground, when everybody's
(27:38):
satisfied but you're still ableto make progress and use these
tools in the best way possibleno-transcript translate into
(28:32):
business value.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
How can we use this to again learn at a deeper level
about customer, a product, amarket and that translator role?
And I don't know that I'mfascinated that you mentioned,
because you're the only personI've spoken to that's ever
mentioned that translator role,even though I've thought that,
wow, this is like the ligamentsbetween the bone and the muscle,
(28:55):
this is the connective tissuehere that kind of makes a lot of
things make sense, and I guessI kind of have adopted that role
in a sense at least when I talkto clients.
I don't really have that as atitle, but it's like how do we
help you understand theenvironment that you're in, that
bigger environment, theenvironment that you create for
(29:19):
your customers, your employees,your partners, your ecosystem as
an organization?
And how do we make the datathat is generated from these
interactions on a daily basismake sense so that whoever it is
in that pool of stakeholderscan gain value from it, and an
honest value.
I'd kind of put that there as aqualifier, because there's
(29:40):
sometimes you can play withnumbers and play with data and
stuff, but we won't go into that, but that's again.
I think it's.
I hold out hope that there isstill a.
The majority of folks know thatthere's a right way to conduct
yourself and do things.
Even though you're in abusiness, we're all in it to
make a profit and develop thelifestyle that we're comfortable
(30:02):
with.
But yeah, I think that there isthat North Star sort of focus,
that that's what we're going to,that's who we want to be,
that's how we want to project,who we are to market and people
understand us at that level thatwe are.
We're trying to be better thanwe are on a typical day.
You know it's always strivingto be our best and put our best
(30:23):
out there.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Yeah, everything you're saying has given me a lot
of hope for the way that wetreat our programs, because in
every single course, we weave inethical considerations, we
weave in thinking about thecustomer experience, but also
atypical customers.
We think about accessibility,right, we think about, we talk,
(30:45):
we still talk about equity andinclusion and we're not losing
that language and those thingsare really important because we
need to have these conversationsso that when the next wave of
marketers comes out of ourprograms whether it's digital
media management, digital socialmedia, on and on and on we have
, you know, that they arethinking about it from this lens
and they're trying to make surethey're in the room to ask the
(31:06):
right questions, but look aroundand make sure that room has
representation of differentpeople.
Because we have to make surethat we are being, that we're on
the ethical side of marketing,that we're not just manipulating
data, as you said, and using,you know, just throwing bots out
there to do all this, all thisstuff, that we're being really
intentional with the way thatwe're using these tools that we
(31:27):
have access to to get the verybest information and deliver the
best value, the best service wecan.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
Yeah, yeah, and this goes back again a while Okay.
But so when I started to getinto SEO the first agency that I
was with that we started wewere focused primarily on Google
AdWords at the time, google Adsor whatever it's called now.
But then we got into SEObecause our clients were asking
(31:57):
for it, and one of the thingsthat's still like that article
about the translator but thatresonates with me today, is that
the sites that were doing bestin SEO were the ones that took a
very deliberate approach to inthere.
(32:17):
The metadata and the sort ofthe underlying machine readable
text were constructed withaccessibility in mind for folks
with poor eyesight.
You know that description ofthe image.
Oh yeah, it isn't to rank wellin Google Images.
Exactly, it's to be descriptiveof that image for somebody
that's sight impaired.
(32:38):
Yep, and those types of thingsare actually the foundations of
SEO.
That kind of got bastardizedalong the way, but in the root,
when it first started, therewere some really good intentions
behind it, and that again it'salways resonated with me is that
, yeah, the reason that and Ihave not read Google's SEO
(33:01):
guidelines in forever, but I doremember way back in the day and
this is probably early 2000s orso that it was to help those
that needed help be able toexperience this digital
environment, and that again, Ithink there's sometimes the
really good intentions get.
(33:22):
That story doesn't always comethrough as maybe as it should,
but yeah, that is not, and I'vehonestly felt at times as a
digital marketer really myentire career in digital
marketing Sometimes I've hadthat kind of slimy feeling like,
you know, cambridge Analytica,those types of instances that
have come up in the past,cambridge Analytica, those types
(33:46):
of instances that have come upin the past and yeah, there's
been some times where the fieldhas got a bit of a black eye,
usually self-inflicted, butthere's also some real good
foundational intention out thereand I think sometimes that's
been lost along the way.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
I don't think I didn't even know that, but now
I'm going to use that in class.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
I don't think I didn't even know that, but now
I'm going to use that in class.
Yeah, it's out there and itprimarily started with images
and the alt text descriptions ofimages.
And then just being very clear,because, as folks are using a
reader to experience the website, the visuals, the cool designs
doesn't mean a thing.
It's what you're saying and howyou're describing the services
(34:26):
and products you're offering.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
I think we could probably continue this
conversation for several hours,but I know that we are time
constrained, so I want to askwhat is one piece of advice that
you would give to studentsgetting their master's in
digital media or in the digitalecosystem right now?
Speaker 3 (34:49):
Well, we are in interesting times and in a
number of ways, but I do thinkthat there is a premium on truth
.
And if you look back on what isthe sort of the overriding,
like top tier objective of abrand, it's to be trusted, and
(35:12):
trust only comes from truth.
And so if you can operate andagain I say if, because some
folks have a problem with it, weknow that but operating in an
environment where truth is yourguiding light, your North Star,
you'll develop trust.
(35:32):
And I would also add, in therethere's a degree of transparency
too, because, again, these daysthings can be twisted and you
know, data itself can be twistedtoo.
But having that sort ofapproach where, if you rely on
going after a very buildingtrust with your audience and
(35:52):
having that trust and knowingthat trust is earned over the
lifetime of that relationshipand it can be lost, I mean
literally in an instant, as aswe know and have seen in many
examples throughout time,literally.
But I don't think you have tohide from anything.
Transparency is easy.
When you live in a state oftruth and trust, you don't even
(36:13):
have to say well, I'm beingtransparent because that's
already been established, youknow, and so I guess, yeah, if I
would say to those studentsthat are getting their new
degrees and they've invested inthese couple of years to really
kind of elevate themselves, Ithink it, and you know, it's
nice to be able to sleep atnight and not have to think like
(36:36):
gosh, what did I do today?
But, and again, again, we're ininteresting times and I think
(37:03):
that it's kind of funny.
Like, take the high road.
Well, that's easier said thandone.
There's a lot of things pullingat you to take a shortcut and
whatnot.
But again, if you can reallyfocus on that beacon of being a
work, living in facts and truthand earning the trust of your
audiences, you'll do all right.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
Yeah, fantastic, and I understand that we are going
to have a no obligation 30minute consultation on data
strategy, governance, ai,marketing, so we will drop that
into the show notes when theepisode releases so that people
can get more time with you.
And I'm sure this you knowshort time we've had together
(37:44):
has been really intriguing for alot of people, eric and you're
approaching the business and Ireally do value that.
You're bringing up trust,transparency, truth.
You know all these importantthings governance in your data
strategy, thinking about thingsthat, like you said, they're not
.
They don't sound like sexy andexciting, but they are the most
(38:06):
inherent core things that youneed to build into your business
.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
That and I think, as us, as individuals too yeah, I
think it starts with us here andon these other sides of the
screens.
I'm looking at you, you'relooking at me, but you know,
when you wake up in the morning,we'll go into the.
You know, get out our hairs onmess, just got out of bed.
But we look in the mirror andwe see who we are.
And I think that if we know whowe are and we all have our
(38:32):
faults and all that, but westart that day trying to live in
a truthful, trustworthyenvironment and add what we can
to foster that again, we'll,we'll, be all right.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
Yeah, fantastic.
Well, thank you, eric Leylandof the Matters Group.
I really appreciated your timetoday and thank you to everybody
who's in the Mediascape worldwatching this, listening to it
on your favorite platform.
Please do leave us a rating andreview.
They mean a lot and they helpdiscoverability.
With that, we'll be back againnext week with another amazing
(39:05):
guest to share their journey.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
To learn more about the Master of Science in Digital
Media Management program, visitus on the web at dmmuscedu.
Welcome to Mediascape insights from digital
changemakers, a speaker seriesand podcast brought to you by
USC Annenberg's Digital MediaManagement Program.
Join us as we unlock thesecrets to success in an
increasingly digital world.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
I always love having people on the show who have seen
digital transformation sincethe beginning.
I remember those early dot-comdays when there weren't a lot of
choices, and my guest today,eric Leyland, certainly
remembers them.
Eric, thank you so much forjoining me on Mediascape.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Monica, it's great to be here and hopefully I can
lend something that some otherfolks if nothing else, maybe
it'll conjure up a memory oftimes gone past where things
were a little bit morechallenging to get through and
work through.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Yeah, well, let's start there.
You are the chief executive ofthe Matters Group.
I'm really excited to learnmore about what you do now, but
you have seen all of theseshifts.
So, all of these shifts youwere working at organizations
when we're very early days ofthe human side, the consumer
side of the Internet, shall wesay.
So will you talk a little bit?
Speaker 3 (01:23):
about how you got into the field, and then you
know what has happened to getyou to have your own
organization now.
Sure, so you know, I honestly Igot out.
This is going way back, so alittle bit in the way back
machine.
But when I got out of schoolSan Diego State, 92-ish, 93, I
wasn't really sure what I wantedto do.
I had a good degree inmarketing.
I knew I was going to move upto Seattle because I had a
relationship with a young ladywho I'm still with to this day,
(01:44):
because I had a relationshipwith a young lady who I'm still
with to this day 30-ish, someodd years later.
But it would be in Seattle.
But I had no job to get to.
So I ended up gravitatingtowards an organization that was
in the manufacturing space ofelectronic test and measurement
equipment.
I honestly had no businessbeing in that role.
I did not know a thing aboutengineering or electronics.
But what I did figure out,probably from the marketing
(02:07):
background, was if you can speakthe language of the audience,
you can communicate with them.
And so I actually spent myevenings at UW University of
Washington's engineering libraryjust schooling up really
quickly on the terminology ofelectronics and test and
measurement equipment, and itwas during that time that I got
introduced to network testequipment and I thought it was
(02:30):
just phenomenal the way that youcould interact with other
organizations across the country, across the globe,
electronically.
And this was before the WorldWide Web came out and there were
some ways to interact withthese text-based communication
and networks.
But it wasn't real easy.
You had there were a couple of.
I don't know if anybody willever remember these, but there
were two text-based browsers inthe early 90s, one called Archie
(02:53):
and I think the second versionwas called Veronica, based upon
the very old comic strip Soon.
After that, mosaic came out andI think that was the first
graphical browser.
The first sort of product Ibought was called Internet in a
Box.
I don't know if anybodyremembers that, but it was
(03:16):
purchased at the old CompUSAstore up in Montlake Terrace
here in Washington.
But anyways, the point was thatI got enamored with the way
that you could communicateelectronically over vast
distances and to me immediatelythings started to connect.
Very shortly after that I wasin this manufacturing company
selling this equipment andalthough I loved it, it wasn't
where I saw things going and atthat time, early 96, the
(03:40):
internet in Seattle was juststarting to get going.
There was, I wouldn't say,really even the VC team had
connected with Seattle yet.
But there were little startupsstarting to pop up and so I just
took the first job of one thatoffered me one and I said I'm
diving in and that was the start.
Back in there, my first day wasSeptember 6th 1996.
(04:05):
Wow 1996, that's whyth 1996.
Wow 1996.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
That's why I remember it Amazing.
I mean, I remember the dot-comearly days.
I worked in magazine publishing.
I worked at Future US, whichpublished Business 2.0.
Oh, I remember that.
Yeah, so I worked on otherpublications, but I do remember
those early days and it'sinteresting to think about how
(04:29):
things go full circle in someways.
We were going into chat roomsto find fans for different
publications video gamepublications, music and now
everybody's forming their ownchat rooms right by creating
different groups and seminarsand things online.
So there are things that aretime tested, that still exist,
and we're seeing a lot of thatin the digital ecosystem.
(04:51):
I feel like the things that wedo, going from the early days of
the internet to figuring outhow to do advertising,
e-commerce, right till now we'reusing AI, agentic AI.
So a lot of that stuff haschanged, but a lot of the
strategies, the tactics, theother things that you have to
learn stay the same Having thatfoundational business expertise
(05:12):
which you did have through yourdegree and through that
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
It's interesting is that I'm going way back in the
day when they had, you know,bulletin board systems that
people would similar to whatyou're saying, you know these
small groups, chat rooms, andeven back then it was sort of
like finding your tribe.
Who are the people that arelike me, that have a similar
interest?
And then I think the dot combubble, sort of like push things
(05:39):
to like just get bigger, faster, aggregate audiences.
Sort of like push things tolike just get bigger, faster,
aggregate audiences.
But I think it's come fullcircle to your point in that
again, finding your tribe,finding that you know we're
talking about one-to-onepersonalization and you know
very delivering very uniqueexperiences at an individual
level.
So it's kind of to your point.
(06:02):
It has come back and it'sstayed the same sort of these
fundamental truths where I thinkas and it gets beyond sort of
marketing and certainly beyonddigital marketing but just to be
a human, I think you want to berecognized as an individual,
and that is kind of theunderlying theme that I've kind
of found myself.
I look back.
Probably preparing for thisinterview was like you know,
what have I done?
And a lot of it has been rootedin data, but understanding what
(06:25):
that data means to themarketing organization, but in a
way that they can connectbetter to that audience by
understanding what motivatesthat individual to make the
decisions they make throughouttheir life, whether it's
purchasing something or justtake it in action.
So it is interesting that youknow some of these things that
(06:45):
we maybe talk about on a cursorylevel about business and
digital marketing stuff, butthere's fundamental elements of
humanity in there.
If you dig hard enough and digdeep enough, you'll find them.
But yeah, it's an interestingspace to be in and it's one
that's been very exciting, and Ilove the constant change,
although it can be frustratingand we're going through a big
(07:07):
wave now of things changing.
So it's an interesting place tobe and it's a fun place to be
too.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Yeah, it's fun to be able to learn new things, even
if you've been in the industryfor a while, and learn how to
properly apply them tobusinesses that we work for and
work with right, and our ownbusinesses as well.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
When I started out in thedigital space, we were with
again what was maybe one of theearliest direct marketing
agencies that used completelysolely digital channels to do
outreach to clients.
But early stage of doing A-Btesting before we really called
(07:51):
it A-B testing, just like, oh Ihave an idea for some creative
and someone else has anotheridea, well, let's run these and
see if we can do a little bit ofsplit testing.
But that evolved into reallyunderstanding that.
That evolved into reallyunderstanding that, wow, these
data points that we get, theytell a story and if we can
derive that sort of again theunderlying motivations of what
(08:13):
that real story is about, we canend up delivering some real
value to whether it's anindividual or another
organization we're selling toand that's that.
Again, I'm going to be datingmyself.
But going back into the dot-comdays and then the 2000s of when
really what was or has becomeGoogle Analytics kind of this
(08:37):
new tool that was out there toshow us what people were doing
on our sites not just a statscounter, but giving some deeper
level of insights, what contentthey were looking at, how long
they were engaged with it thatkind of then opened my eyes and,
I will admit, as a nerdyteenager I was enamored with
baseball.
I liked to play the game, butit was really the stats behind
(08:58):
it.
I collected baseball cards foreons and I didn't go out to
party on a Friday night.
I hung out with some nerdyfriends and played simulation
games that were based on statsfor baseball like really geeky,
nerdy stuff, became a precursorto where I am now.
But you know, but leveragingdata to get an understanding of
(09:19):
what's happening, but more thanthat, maybe at a higher level,
some wisdom and some bestguidance on how to conduct
oneself, based upon data, notjust.
You know, I have a little bit ofa love-hate relationship with
the performance marketing.
That marketing is about growthand delivering value.
(09:43):
But when we come to rely onlyon the numbers, only on the data
, and just at that point, notmoving into insights, but when
you start to move into insightsand you start to look at what
that data means and with thestory that it tells, and you
start to build up to not onlydata insights but knowledge and
(10:05):
understanding and wisdom, that'swhen I think you it sounds
corny, but maybe a level ofenlightenment from a marketing
perspective and I think mostmarketers and again.
That's why I have a little bitof this love-hate relationship
with performance marketing.
Most marketers, I think, wantto deliver real value.
They want to be associated witha product or a service or an
(10:28):
initiative that the recipient ofthe message likes and said,
yeah, I feel I want a part ofthat.
And you know there's an elementtoo that's just about growth
and you know, fill in thatpipeline and you know, work in
the numbers and it can be anumbers game, but I think there
should just be a little bit moreto it.
And then you know you get intosome areas of that would.
(10:50):
I guess you would consider thedistinction between performance
marketing and brand.
But I mean, to me, brand and Ilearned from a couple of fellows
that I worked with long ago whowere older than me but kind of
taught me the ropes, like, likewhat a brand really was, and it
was these underlying motivationsthat cause people to act, and
then tying that into data,understanding that and then
(11:13):
weaving that story together anddelivering value to them based
upon their values.
To me, that's where I think youcan be proud to be a marketer
that, yeah, I'm giving somethingto somebody that they really
like and enjoy and can feel goodabout that, rather than just we
sold another X, y, z, whateverit is, and our conversion rates
X and our cost of acquisition isY and OK, that that's wonderful
(11:35):
, but I think there's maybe alittle bit more that we could do
with that information than justsell stuff.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
You are so hitting the nail on the head.
The course I'm teaching rightnow at USC for the Digital Media
Management Program is aboutdigital media ad buying
measurement analytics, but wealso in that course we talk a
little bit about that.
But we also talk aboutstorytelling.
I brought in a case study of aclient that I worked on and how
we did AV testing and you knowwe did paid advertising for four
(12:05):
different campaigns to seewhich tagline resonated and
which campaign name and walkedthem through that process.
Now some of the students arevery sophisticated.
They've been in the field.
They're just trying to hone inskills even further.
Some are brand new to digital.
They might not even go intoadvertising or marketing.
They might be in production orsome other aspect to advertising
(12:26):
or marketing.
They might be in production orsome other aspect.
But yesterday we brought up anarticle about the Amazon
upfronts, because another fullcircle thing right, all the
streaming platforms were like wedon't need to do upfronts.
That's old news.
Now they're all doing upfrontsand they have schedules with
their shows.
And the fact that Amazon islayering on even more types of
advertising that interrupt theshows An example that they used
in the article that they used inthe article that they thought
(12:46):
was great was a show.
There was a heartfelt scenewhere a mom and daughter were
talking on a cell phone andT-Mobile ad would pop up and
talk about having thoseheartfelt conversations on
T-Mobile.
It gets ridiculous when westart thinking about so we can
analyze data and obviously theyhave huge numbers of.
There's a crossover betweenpeople who are watching Prime
(13:06):
Video and who are purchasing andhave intent purchase for the
brand awareness and engagement.
They can shut, throw out allthese metrics, but are those
really good for the consumer?
Are they really where we wantto see more advertising when
we're trying to like, decompress, right, just watch a show for a
little bit.
And so your point about youknow, yes, analytics, but really
(13:30):
it's about the humanization,the storytelling, that aspect of
it that really hits home withthe consumer and with our
prospects.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
I think so too, and, you know, I think it's maybe the
feeling that you're more than anumber, when somebody kind of
understand you and you get it,that they understand you, yeah.
So I don't think that anyonelikes to be considered just a
number.
I'm a conversion.
What's my lifetime value to you?
X Y Z corp.
But I just got to mention the,the algorithms.
(14:04):
I have not cut the cord yet,but I'm probably.
Most of my viewing on a bigscreen is from YouTube, and I
don't have the paid subscription, which I probably should as a
marketer, but the poor timing ofwhen ads come in, like right at
the cliffhanger scene.
You're like what?
Another ad for whatever Xfinityor whomever it is, but yeah,
(14:26):
it's like.
Yeah.
The thing is, though and I dotry and keep it in this context
that, especially with technologyand maybe even specific AI,
because I'm sure we'll get intothat topic in our conversation
here is that what we see todaygenerally, but not not in all
cases, but I think in general,it's the worst, it's going to be
, it's going to get better, andI think that those organizations
(14:50):
that do really pay attention towhat their brand means to their
audience and, really more sothan that what's important to
their audience outside the brand, just in general, like when you
start to again look at humansas being humans and that having
very complex personas.
We're all different, but that'skind of more important than
(15:12):
making sure you get that add-inat that right moment and
increase visible.
To me that's it's idealistic,but that's kind of what
marketing should be about.
And I granted I know you got tomake money.
You've got to, if you're public, appease the shareholders and
all that stuff, but it's niceknowing that maybe there's a
little bit more that you canstrive for.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Yeah, well, and that's the play between
marketing.
There's a lot of unethicalpractices, or practices that
people could consider unethical,right.
So how do you bring ethics intomarketing?
I think that's where theMatters Group.
You call yourself a marketingmodernization firm and I think
that's where you bring yourinsights in.
You're also an advisory councilmember for Harvard Business
(15:54):
Review.
You mentor right inentrepreneurship and AI and you
do all these other things togive back, but I think that we
need leaders who have theexperience but who also can talk
about.
Yeah, I've done all thesedifferent things, that we've
made a lot of money fordifferent organizations, but
what really matters is thepeople.
And let's think about how we'reshowing up with our brand
(16:14):
values every day, making surethat we're matching, that we're
customizing it to right ourpotential buyers, to right our
potential buyers.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
Yeah, and you know a couple of topics that kind of
I've become interested in andyou know, when our article comes
up I'll look into it, do alittle bit more, you know, dig
into the research.
But it's two things thatprobably aren't on the top 10
list of marketers, but it'sgovernance and data strategy and
(16:46):
they're sort of like they'rejust they're in the environment
that they were in.
Today and for, I'd say,probably the first two decades
of my career, I didn't reallythink about those two topics at
all.
They weren't in my vocabulary.
But then, looking to see toyour point about you, you know
there's some folks that havebeen less than ideal in how
(17:07):
they've handled data and howthey've been.
Data's been manipulated toreach customers or persuade
customers to act in a certainway.
But if we believe that, youknow, data is the the new oil or
electricity or whatever, or AIis the new electricity, those
analogies like okay, I see thatthese are important things,
(17:29):
these are important strategicassets to the corporation, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah,corporate speak.
But they can be used for goodand they can be used for bad.
And then the aspect ofgovernance, which for years I
thought, oh, this sounds boring,not interested, but then my
(17:49):
eyes opened up to how they worktogether to provide some
safeguards and guidance into howto become, ideally, that
marketer that thinks a bitbeyond the conversion rate and
the lifetime value.
And, as an organization, howmight we use the tool of
(18:11):
governance, the asset of dataand the various channels that we
reach our audience out to withour message?
How do we use this as a systemto just be a better participant
in the market and put on thewhite hat and be the good guys?
It's tempting and I don't thinksome of these organizations
(18:34):
that might wear the black hatintended to end up that way, but
there was possibly anopportunity that showed itself,
they pursued it and they wentdown that path.
But I do think that there areother tools that are out there
and I think then, when they aredone with the right intent, they
can deliver great things.
And I think that, again, one ofthe things that I would really
(18:54):
like to emphasize is that, again, I've been doing a lot of
self-studying lately, kind of inthis space of AI, data, data,
strategy and governance and howthat can be missed the
governance aspect and like, ohyeah, we've got the latest,
greatest thing, we've got thisnew AI tool.
It's going to go gangbusters,but did we stop and check and
(19:16):
just say is this the right thingto do According to our brand
whatever your brand may be butdoes it kind of fit within the
guardrails of who we want to beand what we want to be known as
in the markets that we serve,and so I think it's something
that's getting more traction,but I'd like to hear it more
often and elevated to some ofthe things about on the level of
(19:40):
like, brand strategy, customeracquisition strategy is just the
governance kind of gets pushedto the side because it's not the
cool, shiny thing.
It's like someone telling youhow you should actually behave
when no one's looking.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
But what's interesting is I do see, even
with nonprofit organizationsthat I volunteer with, that
people are saying, hey, we don'treally have an AI strategy.
We need to have one so thatpeople know what is acceptable
to put into.
If you have, whatever systemyou're using at home, Do you
have a subscription or are youusing a free version?
So what really do you want toput in and which ones are going
(20:16):
to safeguard your informationand which ones aren't?
And you did get a certificatefrom MIT in AI.
I'm studying AI right now atVillanova and I'm a big fan, but
I'm also a big fan of the humanelement and what we're going to
be able to do by using thesetools.
And I know this is obviously abig area privacy, security,
(20:36):
governance with artificialintelligence, Intelligence and
you have a great series ofarticles on LinkedIn that talk
about customer experience andhow AI can be a help or a
hindrance.
So I'd love to hear a littlebit about how your agency is
approaching generative AI andother AI.
You know machine learning alsointo your work streams for using
(20:58):
with your clients, and you knowyour overall thoughts around
this whole big new world.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
There's a lot of temptation out there to do
things and I think and I'm goingto kind of speak to the
enterprise organizations wherewe know AI is in the business
news and in general mainstreamnews everywhere, but it's
mainstream news is everywhere.
But the appearances is, whatI've seen is that the C-level
(21:27):
folks might not necessarilygrasp it and maybe in the big
picture, but not kind of thatlevel second, third layer, down,
and then some of the ideas thatare innovative come from the
team, either the aligned levelfolks or even the managers,
directors, et cetera, and theyhave some great ideas.
(21:48):
But there's sometimes there's adisconnect between where those
ideas are coming from and theleadership team that says, yeah,
let's, let's support this, yeah, let's support this, and then
not to hinger the financialtypes, the CFOs, in the
organization.
But they have kind of adifferent check and balance
(22:12):
against the marketing side.
And wanting to grow revenue,it's a good thing, wanting to
grow the customer base,certainly a good thing, and
deliver value to all thestakeholders in the organization
is also generally a good thing,and deliver value to all the
stakeholders in the organizationis also generally a good thing.
But I do think that sometimesthere's too much attention and
(22:32):
this is maybe driven byheadlines somewhat that AI is
purely a growth or efficiencyoption.
We're either going to beputting optimizing our channels
that are driving those initialconversions whether it's leads
or actual customers ortransactions and our sole intent
(22:53):
or objective is to raise thevalue of our share price for our
shareholders.
Again, that's not necessarily abad thing, but I don't think it
should be the overriding thing.
I should have taken morefinance classes in college but I
didn't do that.
But I understand it's important, but I think that there's
(23:19):
looking at the customerexperience and how that's become
much, much more important andis it's getting much more
visibility than if you look back10 years or so.
Having the financialperspective is good, but at what
point do you say we're notgoing to go the extra step for
the customer, even though theywant it?
(23:39):
We can deliver it and we can doso in a realistic manner, but
it doesn't push the whether it'srevenues, roi, whatever the
financial metric is it doesn'tpush that enough as some of
these other levers that we canpush or pull.
That's where I would like tocome in to our clients and say
(24:00):
you know what?
Let's talk about who you are asan organization.
What's the personality of theorganization?
Again, we know all these rolesare important, but as someone
that is a leader and I would saynot just as a chief executive
officer, but that leadershipteam agree on who you are as a
brand.
And going back to mission andvalues types of stuff, like the
(24:23):
decision you're making tomaximize shareholder value, does
that truly align with yourvalues and mission in terms of
what you say you deliver to youraudience?
Because probably your audiencearen't shareholders it is a
constituency but your, yourcustomers, probably aren't
shareholders.
And I would argue that if youcan satisfy your customers first
(24:48):
, prioritize them first, thoseshareholders will become
satisfied in time.
Yeah, they'll get their turn atthe table, but yeah, so that's
in terms of what we do for ourclients.
It is really trying to sometimeslevel set and say, hey, let's
step back a bit.
Yes, we can go in thisdirection, we can develop an AI
(25:10):
strategy for you, we can makesure your team's literate and
understanding you guys are readyto take on this, but let's
understand where we want to gofirst and not just go to that
next and near-term goal andobjective, but the longer-term
goal and objective, and I thinkthat's in business and it seems
(25:36):
like maybe with the digitalspace really sort of being on
par now with the physical space,digital used to be this little
like checkbox item like makesure we got the website done,
make sure we got those Googleads running, make sure we've got
SEO.
No, Okay, now that yourbusiness is digital business and
so you've got a lot of toolsavailable, but how you use those
tools to deliver the value thatyou say you want to do, let's
(25:56):
just make sure we're checkingthat and that we are making sure
that we're asking the rightquestions of our customers that
ultimately are the ones thatit's their money that ultimately
goes to the shareholders.
So let's make sure that we'retaking care of them first and
that we're doing so in a waythat's aligned with what we say
are our values and our missionof how we're going to deliver
(26:19):
this value.
So that's kind of how weapproach things.
It's not nuts and bolts, it is.
So that's kind of how weapproach things.
It's not nuts and bolts.
It is a little bit kind ofelevated, a little bit.
You know, sometimes pie in thesky.
We'd love for the client toshift your focus from a peer
financial gain to deliveringsomething that's a little, maybe
more fuzzy to measure, but Ithink that that's important and
(26:42):
there is a balance.
I understand that there's abalance, but it's just.
Sometimes I think we have beenlosing a bit of how we look at
how we serve each other.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Yeah, yeah.
That's a really, reallyimportant point and it brings me
back to something you weretalking about early on.
Well, you started this job,this company.
You would go in and go into theengineering library and get to
learn the terms.
So that role today is reallythe translator right.
So this new role that's beingcreated out of our world of AI
(27:16):
and more tech, so that you arethe person who can decipher
between the C-suite, theengineers or the other team
members who are using things inthe field and need to have the
right tool set and need theC-suite to understand, and the
C-suite, of course, coming inwanting to be concerned about
share prices and theshareholders, and so finding
that connection point, thatmiddle ground, when everybody's
(27:38):
satisfied but you're still ableto make progress and use these
tools in the best way possibleno-transcript translate into
(28:32):
business value.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
How can we use this to again learn at a deeper level
about customer, a product, amarket and that translator role?
And I don't know that I'mfascinated that you mentioned,
because you're the only personI've spoken to that's ever
mentioned that translator role,even though I've thought that,
wow, this is like the ligamentsbetween the bone and the muscle,
(28:55):
this is the connective tissuehere that kind of makes a lot of
things make sense, and I guessI kind of have adopted that role
in a sense at least when I talkto clients.
I don't really have that as atitle, but it's like how do we
help you understand theenvironment that you're in, that
bigger environment, theenvironment that you create for
(29:19):
your customers, your employees,your partners, your ecosystem as
an organization?
And how do we make the datathat is generated from these
interactions on a daily basismake sense so that whoever it is
in that pool of stakeholderscan gain value from it, and an
honest value.
I'd kind of put that there as aqualifier, because there's
(29:40):
sometimes you can play withnumbers and play with data and
stuff, but we won't go into that, but that's again.
I think it's.
I hold out hope that there isstill a.
The majority of folks know thatthere's a right way to conduct
yourself and do things.
Even though you're in abusiness, we're all in it to
make a profit and develop thelifestyle that we're comfortable
(30:02):
with.
But yeah, I think that there isthat North Star sort of focus,
that that's what we're going to,that's who we want to be,
that's how we want to project,who we are to market and people
understand us at that level thatwe are.
We're trying to be better thanwe are on a typical day.
You know it's always strivingto be our best and put our best
(30:23):
out there.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Yeah, everything you're saying has given me a lot
of hope for the way that wetreat our programs, because in
every single course, we weave inethical considerations, we
weave in thinking about thecustomer experience, but also
atypical customers.
We think about accessibility,right, we think about, we talk,
(30:45):
we still talk about equity andinclusion and we're not losing
that language and those thingsare really important because we
need to have these conversationsso that when the next wave of
marketers comes out of ourprograms whether it's digital
media management, digital socialmedia, on and on and on we have
, you know, that they arethinking about it from this lens
and they're trying to make surethey're in the room to ask the
(31:06):
right questions, but look aroundand make sure that room has
representation of differentpeople.
Because we have to make surethat we are being, that we're on
the ethical side of marketing,that we're not just manipulating
data, as you said, and using,you know, just throwing bots out
there to do all this, all thisstuff, that we're being really
intentional with the way thatwe're using these tools that we
(31:27):
have access to to get the verybest information and deliver the
best value, the best service wecan.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
Yeah, yeah, and this goes back again a while Okay.
But so when I started to getinto SEO the first agency that I
was with that we started wewere focused primarily on Google
AdWords at the time, google Adsor whatever it's called now.
But then we got into SEObecause our clients were asking
(31:57):
for it, and one of the thingsthat's still like that article
about the translator but thatresonates with me today, is that
the sites that were doing bestin SEO were the ones that took a
very deliberate approach to inthere.
(32:17):
The metadata and the sort ofthe underlying machine readable
text were constructed withaccessibility in mind for folks
with poor eyesight.
You know that description ofthe image.
Oh yeah, it isn't to rank wellin Google Images.
Exactly, it's to be descriptiveof that image for somebody
that's sight impaired.
(32:38):
Yep, and those types of thingsare actually the foundations of
SEO.
That kind of got bastardizedalong the way, but in the root,
when it first started, therewere some really good intentions
behind it, and that again it'salways resonated with me is that
, yeah, the reason that and Ihave not read Google's SEO
(33:01):
guidelines in forever, but I doremember way back in the day and
this is probably early 2000s orso that it was to help those
that needed help be able toexperience this digital
environment, and that again, Ithink there's sometimes the
really good intentions get.
(33:22):
That story doesn't always comethrough as maybe as it should,
but yeah, that is not, and I'vehonestly felt at times as a
digital marketer really myentire career in digital
marketing Sometimes I've hadthat kind of slimy feeling like,
you know, cambridge Analytica,those types of instances that
have come up in the past,cambridge Analytica, those types
(33:46):
of instances that have come upin the past and yeah, there's
been some times where the fieldhas got a bit of a black eye,
usually self-inflicted, butthere's also some real good
foundational intention out thereand I think sometimes that's
been lost along the way.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
I don't think I didn't even know that, but now
I'm going to use that in class.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
I don't think I didn't even know that, but now
I'm going to use that in class.
Yeah, it's out there and itprimarily started with images
and the alt text descriptions ofimages.
And then just being very clear,because, as folks are using a
reader to experience the website, the visuals, the cool designs
doesn't mean a thing.
It's what you're saying and howyou're describing the services
(34:26):
and products you're offering.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
I think we could probably continue this
conversation for several hours,but I know that we are time
constrained, so I want to askwhat is one piece of advice that
you would give to studentsgetting their master's in
digital media or in the digitalecosystem right now?
Speaker 3 (34:49):
Well, we are in interesting times and in a
number of ways, but I do thinkthat there is a premium on truth
.
And if you look back on what isthe sort of the overriding,
like top tier objective of abrand, it's to be trusted, and
(35:12):
trust only comes from truth.
And so if you can operate andagain I say if, because some
folks have a problem with it, weknow that but operating in an
environment where truth is yourguiding light, your North Star,
you'll develop trust.
(35:32):
And I would also add, in therethere's a degree of transparency
too, because, again, these daysthings can be twisted and you
know, data itself can be twistedtoo.
But having that sort ofapproach where, if you rely on
going after a very buildingtrust with your audience and
(35:52):
having that trust and knowingthat trust is earned over the
lifetime of that relationshipand it can be lost, I mean
literally in an instant, as aswe know and have seen in many
examples throughout time,literally.
But I don't think you have tohide from anything.
Transparency is easy.
When you live in a state oftruth and trust, you don't even
(36:13):
have to say well, I'm beingtransparent because that's
already been established, youknow, and so I guess, yeah, if I
would say to those studentsthat are getting their new
degrees and they've invested inthese couple of years to really
kind of elevate themselves, Ithink it, and you know, it's
nice to be able to sleep atnight and not have to think like
(36:36):
gosh, what did I do today?
But, and again, again, we're ininteresting times and I think
(37:03):
that it's kind of funny.
Like, take the high road.
Well, that's easier said thandone.
There's a lot of things pullingat you to take a shortcut and
whatnot.
But again, if you can reallyfocus on that beacon of being a
work, living in facts and truthand earning the trust of your
audiences, you'll do all right.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
Yeah, fantastic, and I understand that we are going
to have a no obligation 30minute consultation on data
strategy, governance, ai,marketing, so we will drop that
into the show notes when theepisode releases so that people
can get more time with you.
And I'm sure this you knowshort time we've had together
(37:44):
has been really intriguing for alot of people, eric and you're
approaching the business and Ireally do value that.
You're bringing up trust,transparency, truth.
You know all these importantthings governance in your data
strategy, thinking about thingsthat, like you said, they're not
.
They don't sound like sexy andexciting, but they are the most
(38:06):
inherent core things that youneed to build into your business
.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
That and I think, as us, as individuals too yeah, I
think it starts with us here andon these other sides of the
screens.
I'm looking at you, you'relooking at me, but you know,
when you wake up in the morning,we'll go into the.
You know, get out our hairs onmess, just got out of bed.
But we look in the mirror andwe see who we are.
And I think that if we know whowe are and we all have our
(38:32):
faults and all that, but westart that day trying to live in
a truthful, trustworthyenvironment and add what we can
to foster that again, we'll,we'll, be all right.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
Yeah, fantastic.
Well, thank you, eric Leylandof the Matters Group.
I really appreciated your timetoday and thank you to everybody
who's in the Mediascape worldwatching this, listening to it
on your favorite platform.
Please do leave us a rating andreview.
They mean a lot and they helpdiscoverability.
With that, we'll be back againnext week with another amazing
(39:05):
guest to share their journey.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
To learn more about the Master of Science in Digital
Media Management program, visitus on the web at dmmuscedu.
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