Co-Parenting Styles: Conflicted, Cooperative, and Parallel Strategies

Hi, welcome to MediatorPodcast.com, a podcast and video series about mediation, negotiation and collaboration. My name is Melissa Gragg, and I'm a valuation expert and divorce mediator in St. Louis Missouri – specializing in divorce and partner disputes.  

Today we will discuss Co-Parenting Styles: Conflicted, Cooperative, and Parallel Strategies with Cristin Terri. Cristin is based in Cape Town, South Africa. She is a certified divorce coach, co-parenting specialist, holistic counselor, and meditation teacher and offers valuable support to individuals going through the challenging process of divorce. 

Melissa Gragg  
CVA, MAFF 
Expert testimony for financial and valuation issues  
Bridge Valuation Partners, LLC  
[e-mail]  
http://www.BridgeValuation.com  
http://www.ValuationPodcast.com  
http://www.MediatorPodcast.com  
https://www.valuationmediation.com  
Cell: [phone]

Cristin Terri
https://www.cristinterri.com/
[e-mail]

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, welcome to mediator podcast.com, a podcast

(00:02):
and video series aboutmediation, negotiation and
collaboration. My name isMelissa Greg , and I'm
evaluation expert and divorcefinancial mediator in St.
Louis, Missouri. I specializein divorce and partnership with
disputes, but today we're gonnadiscuss something a little bit
different and we're talkingabout parenting strategies and
a guide of how you can maybestart to understand

(00:25):
co-parenting styles during andafter divorce with the infamous
the famous Kristen Terry . Now,Kristen is based in Cape Town,
South Africa, but she's acertified divorce coach, a
co-parenting specialist, aholistic counselor, a
meditation guru teacher, andshe also supports people going

(00:45):
through the challenging processof divorce. Welcome, Kristin .
How are you?

Speaker 2 (00:51):
Hi. I am doing really well and you, Melissa


Speaker 1 (00:54):
Very well. So in the mediation space, we deal with a
lot of divorce, and one of thethings, and you and I talk a
lot about interesting thingsthat happen in the background
of divorce, and I deal with themoney, right? Not so much
always with the parenting. Soone of the things that we have

(01:17):
talked about is that a, a bigpiece of this , uh, divorce
process is understanding what'sgonna happen with the kids,
understanding how we're goingto operate, you know, either
during the divorce, eventelling the kids, but then
during the divorce and thenafter the divorce. And some of
it has to do with co-parentingstyles and really kind of, you

(01:44):
have talked about these stylesand I don't think people
totally understand them, and Ithink you need to go a little
bit deeper into your own stylesand your spouses soon to be
ex-spouses styles because it'sabout the kids. Right? So maybe
if we just start it off, whatpatterns do you see in

(02:05):
co-parenting in , in duringdivorce that you can start to
maybe elaborate on and help usunderstand?

Speaker 2 (02:14):
Yeah , so the most prevalent patterns I would say
is definitely lack ofcommunication. Um , that's
usually prevalent in themarriage as well. So to expect
people to go from a marriagethat had a lack of
communication to now all of asudden they are focused on the
kids, but they still don't havethe communication, right? Um ,

(02:38):
so I work with my clients onthat communication. We see
other patterns of neglecting tolook at or to consider the
effects of what the kids areneed or what kids' needs are.
Um, we see continued conflictas well, because you can't just
expect a high conflict marriageto now all of a sudden be zero

(03:01):
conflict. Um, and the differentparenting styles may even take
, um, different phases. Youmight start with one and you
guys master parallel parenting,and as the emotions start ,
start deciding and you can endup going more towards a co
cooperative co-parenting style,there's many different patterns

(03:22):
that you see. Like I say , lackof communication. Also, people
tend to rush the process wheneverything's still feeling
really raw and emotional andthey underestimate their
emotions in that time, and theytry and make decisions on their
co-parenting styles for thelong term , but they're making
them in a highly emotionalstate as well. So I usually

(03:43):
recommend people, we work onlack of, we work on the
communication, we try and slowthe process down. We work on
the emotional processing. Wework on redirecting the focus
to the children at all times ,um, without considering your
own emotions during theprocess.

Speaker 1 (04:00):
Well, and I think it's interesting because
communication, you're in twodifferent stages and part of
this is talking about whathappens during and after the
divorce. And just from like abig picture communication
standpoint, I think in adivorce when you're in the
divorce, you might be livingtogether, so your communication

(04:20):
might be in person , right?
Yeah . And then post-divorce,you're moving towards
communication that might beemail or text, and you're not
as beholden to each other, youknow? So is even that part of
the issue of communication?

Speaker 2 (04:38):
Yeah , it's a , it's a lot easier for people to say
things via text and blast outnasty things via text as
opposed to maybe what theywould do in person. Um, you
know, people feel braver behindthe phone, just like bullies
would feel braver behind thephone as well. Um, in divorce,
people generally the writtentexts and emails can be even

(05:03):
more harsh than conflict inperson.

Speaker 1 (05:07):
Okay. And in person, sometimes you have an audience
and sometimes you don't, right?
Yeah. Which becomes important,especially with kids around,
right? Yes .

Speaker 2 (05:19):
So something I generally tell my clients is
any post-divorce or during thedivorce, if you're not living
together, any meetings need tobe in public. Um, it really
scales down the level ofpotential conflict that could
happen. Um, if people don'ttend to scream and shout , um,
as much in public as they do intheir homes, .

Speaker 1 (05:44):
Well, and I think with, with sometimes if your
spouse has some behaviorissues, like some tendencies
that are not , um, adult, like, it's helpful to have them in
front of an audience so thatthey behave a little bit
better. But if we're looking atsome of these patterns that
people exhibit in , um,co-parenting, we're also

(06:08):
looking at how the patternschange to post-divorce. So what
happens and how does thischange when we're actually kind
of done with the divorce andmaybe don't maybe have less
respect for each other, right?

Speaker 2 (06:22):
Yeah. Um, sometimes it, it does once the , I I
really think it boils down toemotions In the midst of
divorce, the emotions arereally, really high. Um, but
once you've passed that divorcephase and the divorce is
finalized, someone's moved on,it might hurt the other person

(06:45):
once that person's moved on.
But it does help when someone'smoved on and it does really
draw that final line. But , um,the transitions are always
just, it , it's a constanttransition. I wouldn't say
there's one specific transitionthat happens. It is from how I
co-parented during divorce to ayear, post-divorce to two years
post-divorce. It's, you'vegotta be willing to adapt. And

(07:08):
some people live by what wassaid in the beginning, and
children change as well.
Children grow, and you need toconstantly consider that what
may work when your child isthree is not gonna work when
your child is six or what maywork for you when one, when
both parents live near eachother, you know? Um, it might

(07:29):
not work when one parent movesaway or things are ever
evolving. That's the onlyconstant in life, right? Is
that change is inevitable. And, um, the problem with divorce
and parenting plans is yes, youtry and put out a parenting
plan to minimize conflict thateveryone's on the same page,
and it is really vital , but itdoes need to be revisited. Um ,

(07:51):
you need to keep transitioningand keep shifting as the kids
grow older, as things as eitherof you move on and when another
parent mo or a stepparent movesin, or there's more kids
involved and there's blendedfamilies. So it is , it's not a
one stop one time thing thatyou , uh, we've nailed
communication now , um, orwe're completely focused on the

(08:15):
kids. Things are alwayschanging during the divorce
process, after the divorceprocess as well.

Speaker 1 (08:23):
Well, and I think that we started off by kind of
identifying at least the threeconcepts that we were gonna
talk about today. And they werethree different co-parenting
styles. To me, it almost feelslike you have to first
identify, you know, like theodds are if you're getting
divorced, you know, there's,there's some sort of conflict

(08:45):
in your own relationship, butyou also have to kind of figure
out first like, where are youdeficient in this parenting?
Like, how are you doing thisparenting during really high
conflict, which is a divorce,right? But maybe you could at
least kind of start to get usstarted on maybe even the first

(09:06):
one, like conflictedco-parenting. Like what does
that even mean? Is that whatwe're all doing when we're all
traumatized? Or is it

Speaker 2 (09:14):
? So unfortunately conflicted
co-parenting is one of theworst ones. Um , people think,
oh, I'm still co-parenting.
Yay. Um , it's not conflicted.
Co-parenting is no better thana conflicted marriage. You're
right. Like you're trying ,you're getting divorced because
of the conflict, but if youdon't solve the issues of the

(09:38):
conflict, you then end up stillwith conflicted co-parenting.
So it's one of the worst ones.
And it is also one of the mostprevalent ones as well , um,
because parents, the wordco-parenting is out there now
more than it ever was, but theydon't understand that there is
a way to co-parent and to saythat you are actually

(09:59):
co-parenting cooperatively ,which is the next one we'll
talk about. You need to knowthat you're minimizing the
conflict. If you're co, ifyou're going through conflict
of co-parenting, then you needto look at what other styles
are gonna work. Maybe you needto move to less communication
or, you know, adapt completely.
But yeah, the conflict ofco-parenting is the worst case

(10:21):
scenario. You might as wellhave stayed in the marriage.
The kids are still there .
There's no consistency for thechildren, there's no
consistency for the children.
They're still living in twohomes, still experiencing the
conflict. There's no , um, youknow, the parents haven't
actually sat down and gonethrough what each person's role

(10:42):
is and set out rules ahead oftime, like with the others.

Speaker 1 (10:47):
So if, if they're trying, if they're at least
doing something right, thatmaybe they've moved out.
Because what I'm hearing isconflicted co-parenting, you
could be living apart, right?
But you're still not kind ofshielding the kids from this,
this, you know, the, theconversations and the, the

(11:10):
conflict, right? Yeah . Socooperative parent co-parenting
is now what, somewhere in themiddle when people are trying
to do better.

Speaker 2 (11:19):
So I'll touch base quickly back on the conflict of
co-parenting. What it mightactually look like is, you
know, you're moving, you'vemoved in separate homes.
You're, you're both taking 50per 50 50 of the kids. You're
trying to take theresponsibilities. But when the
kids are with this parent, thisparent's saying bad things
about this parent or inquiringabout this parent or at drop

(11:44):
offs , it's always snottyremarks or at drop offs of
pickups . It's fights or it'strying to get the children to
choose a side or having thechildren think of conflict is
constantly about them. The ,the , the thing that to
remember is it's not divorcethat is negatively impacting

(12:04):
children. It will have aneffect on children, but it's
conflict research has provenover and over again that it's
conflict that is reallynegatively affecting children
and their, you know, what , howthey do in school, their
emotional capacity, theirsocial skills, it it's
conflict. That's the problem.
So conflicted co-parenting you,you really, it's like I said ,

(12:26):
it is the worst one. It is .
Um, you would much rather go tothe next step, which would be
parallel parenting if youcannot eliminate the conflict
for the kids.

Speaker 1 (12:36):
Well, and, and the conflicted parenting when I
guess whenever you're in theprocess, you're the , you are
the mirror, right? And so ifyou are dealing with this
relationship in this kind of,you know, maybe your own
behaviors are toxic as well asthe other person, you know,

(12:58):
that's the mirror for whichyour children are responding to
relationships in school andtheir interpersonal
relationships. So it really islike both of you either have to
do your own work, but then cometogether and then discuss like,
is cooperative parenting nowdiscussing the process that

(13:21):
we're going to, you know, like,do we have very strict
boundaries? Like, you know,

Speaker 2 (13:28):
So what co cooperative parenting would
look like is time needs to beset up, set aside, where
parents would actually sitdown. And a plan is, you know,
they negotiate a plan, theymake compromises and set out a
bunch of rules and boundariesthat both of the parents are
going to adhere to. And both ofthe parents do adhere to these

(13:51):
rules that they have set out intheir plan of how they're gonna
co-parent that may look likenot speaking badly about the
other parent not, and needingto model that, right? Like you
say, we are a mirror , and itis easier said than done, but
when pe when parents realizehow bad the conflict is
actually affecting them, andeven saying something like, oh
, your dad is such an idiot, orYour mom is such an idiot.

(14:14):
Anything you say about theother parent children
inherently feel they are, andthey know they are half that
person. So you are indirectlytelling them they are an idiot
because you're saying dad's anidiot. They're gonna be like,
well , if dad's an idiot, andI'm, and mom and dad always
says, oh, I'm so much like him.
Does that make me an idiot? Um, so it is , we don't realize

(14:38):
that it is the conflict andco-parent cooperative
co-parenting is really settingthose boundaries and both
parents adhering to it. It isthe ultimate goal for parents
to reach. And it is completelydoable. Sometimes with a bit of
coaching, sometimes with a bitof counseling, the parents need
to be able to look atthemselves first and recognize

(14:58):
what it is, what their role is.
Um, understanding somethingabout co-parenting is you may
not always have control overthe other co-parent , um, or
not, may not always. You don'thave control over the other
co-parent. And just focusing onwhat you can do in your
relationship with your childrenand adhering to still nurturing

(15:19):
and understanding that yourchildren need that other
relationship and that otherparent wants to be present. Um
, I deal with a lot of clientsas well. Sometimes the other
parents not, not present, orit's an abusive situation or
it's a high conflict situation.
Um, co-operative co-parentingis the co-parenting that
everyone wants to be doing. Youwanna be able to be amicable in

(15:40):
each other's in in each other'scompany. If you're going, if
you're both going to birthdaystogether, great, but you don't
need to. It may look differentfor absolutely everyone, but
you need to set your ownboundaries. What are you
comfortable with so that youeliminate the conflict. The
goal is the zero conflictbecause why get out of a
marriage if you're still gonnahave conflict and your children

(16:00):
are still gonna be affected bythe conflict? You're trying to
eliminate the conflict. And itis sometimes easier said than
done, but it does take work andit takes, it takes practice,
and it does take , um, I thinka huge thing as people do, like
you mentioned it earlier, isyou lose respect for the other
person. And , um, that's areally hard one once you've
lost all respect for the other,for the other parent , um,

(16:24):
because ultimately they arestill your child's parent and
whatever their , you know, yourkid is still gonna learn from
them . And , um, yeah, c of co-parenting .

Speaker 1 (16:34):
Well, and it's, it's interesting because in typical
divorces, you know, andobviously we're in different
countries, but if, if you justlook at a typical divorce,
you're , at least for the kids'situation, you're usually
coming up with some sort ofparenting plan, right? And
we're usually talking aboutlike, what day are you going to

(16:56):
transfer the children? Likewho's gonna have the holidays?
But what you're talking aboutis really setting up some
boundaries, some, you know,rubrics that you both agree to,
right? And do you see peopleputting some of this language
in the parenting plans becausenot, not like you would be

(17:18):
legally bound by it, but justas a reference point to that
you both are agreeing to kindof operate and , and , and
just, you know, like a , a , agood faith type of situation.
Yeah . Or, or having thisdiscussion even about it,
because I don't see peopletalking about how we're going

(17:39):
to co-parent Well, right? Yeah,

Speaker 2 (17:44):
Yeah. In the beginning phases it is just
about how are we gonna do this?
But people are not considering,when you go through divorce,
it's one of the common mistakesas well as not considering
future co-parenting dynamics.
You're so stuck in this phaseright now. And just trying to
get through the basics of, yes,who's picking up at school the
necessities , who's paying forthis? Who's driving the kids

(18:05):
here? How many days, how long,you know, you're not
considering the smaller detailsthat bring up a lot of conflict
during co-parentingrelationships. And you can
minimize a lot of that if yousit down for two hours, three
hours whilst however long ittakes you, and actually get up
all those nitty gritties of,and have someone potentially

(18:26):
like a coach like myself or acounselor or someone
experienced to guide you onthings like haircuts matter,
you know, or piercings matterdepending on what the kid ,
these are huge things that canco can absolutely blow up a
good co-parenting relationshipwhen, you know, all of a sudden
it goes wrong when the , thedad lets the son get a tattoo

(18:47):
or , um, religious backgroundsor, you know, one of them takes
the child to a new church or soconsidering the longevity or
the whole child's kind oftheir, their entire childhood
and not just considering thenecessities of days and pickups
, but what may still happen.

(19:10):
And people don't always havethe , the insight or the
foresight to know what maystill happen. So it really does
help having a coach or someonethat can say, look, have you
guys discussed this? Have youguys discussed this? Have you
considered how you're gonnahandle this situation? Have you
considered, have you spokenabout when the other partner
meets someone? How do youintroduce them? Or when are you

(19:30):
comfortable introducing thekids? These are huge aspects
that are completely overlookedin the general parenting plan
here in South Africa. I didhave a look at the one that you
sent me as well, and it's sobasic. It is so basic and
leaves so much room for moreconflict. Um , I , I'm sure you

(19:51):
can see the whole thing isconflict. It's the conflict
around divorce. That's the hugeproblem for kids. Um , so yeah,
trying to get you, sometimesyou won't know what you need to
be thinking of , of, and Imean, we do live in the
internet world now, so you canstart researching it, but
coaches, counselors, thenarrative is changing because

(20:12):
the research is showing whatpart is damaging to, to the
children. So how do we fix thatpart that's most damaging to
the children?

Speaker 1 (20:22):
Well, and it's, it's interesting because you're
bringing up, you know, divorcecoach, and I'm gonna kind of
pause 'cause I know we're goinginto a good topic that , um,
everybody's gonna wanna knowmore about. Um, but I wanna
just take a brief opportunityto talk about that a little
bit. Like I do divorces from afinancial aspect, right? In a

(20:44):
certain couple random states inthe us Uh , because I focus on
the financial, I don't get intothe parenting plan as much, so
I've done this for 20 years,right? I , I probably see the
most divorces go throughmediate , I mean, hundreds a
year, right? And I can stillsit here and tell you that if

(21:06):
you wanna talk in depth about aparenting plan, I am not the
person. Okay? And, and I thinkthat you have to understand
that in this divorce world,that we're not just saying get
the right players becauseeverybody, you know, wants to
be involved. We're saying getthe right players based on your

(21:29):
situation and if this is animportant thing or piece of,
you know, like if you don'thave kids, obviously it's not a
big deal if you do. Like if wesit here right now and somebody
said, well, what would youthink about a parent to be ?
I'm like , I don't know , like,go ask Kristen . Right? So I
want I want you to tell just alittle bit about, you know,

(21:49):
like that you have to work withsomebody that has some
experience or has been doingresearch and knowledge in this,
not just had their own divorce,right? That's a piece of it
that gets people motivated, buta divorce coach is a little bit
different. Can you just give usa little bit of like, how does

(22:09):
that person interact withsomebody during this process?

Speaker 2 (22:14):
I love how you always bring up that you don't
do the parenting plans becauseI don't do the finances.
don't bring me thefinances. I'll deal with the
kids and the emotions ,right ? I don't wanna deal with
the numbers. So we're a greatpair here . Um, but yeah, how a
divorce coach helps is what youguys do is dealing with all the
finances. Generally people runstraight to the attorneys,

(22:36):
which you and I both havecertain feelings about the
attorneys and , but you onlyreally need counsel once you've
kind of got an idea andgathered yourself around what's
going on. You can't expect themto know what's going on. You
need to figure out your ownfinances and figure out what
you want for your kids. But youmight not know what are the ,

(22:58):
what are the options out there.
So working with the divorcecoach, we really process the
emotions with you. We help youwith the documentation, of
course, understanding what'snext, but understanding there
are options and alternatedispute resolutions and
alternate kind of ways toapproach co-parenting. Everyone

(23:18):
thinks, oh well you getdivorced. Um , well , not
everyone thinks, but you getdivorced. Mom gets the kids
dad's, the dad's a weekend,dad, you know, gone Is that,
that is gone because men inthis generation are more active
parents and they want 50% oftheir kids. So they don't,
there's not a lot around howcan you shape these really

(23:40):
great parenting plans that itjust flows and go into more
detail. Don't believe , don'tjust focus on the big things.
The more detail there is,personally for me in a
parenting plan, the less roomfor error. If you both sat here
and you looked each other inthe eye and you group agreed on
this, you agreed on this. Andit is, like I said , a , a good
faith agreement. Um, but youknow, if you're focused on the

(24:04):
kids, you want the best foryour kids. And why wouldn't you
want to know? What are the bestways to do this? And how can I
structure this? And sometimes alot of the time for the moms to
let go of 50%, I coach them on,you know, stop looking at the
loss and start looking at whatcan you do in that time and how

(24:25):
can you propel yourself in thetime that you don't have your
kids or take care of yourselfbecause fill your own cup up in
that time, they don't thinkabout that. They just see the
loss because it is , it's ahuge fear. It's a huge loss.
Especially if there's anotherwoman. Is this woman gonna
replace me or is there anotherman? Is this man gonna replace
me as dad? There's so manydifferent things that go

(24:46):
through our minds and worrieswith our kids, but structuring
a parenting plan with moredetail and using a divorce
coach to actually lay out theseare, these are some parenting
plans that I've seen. Thisworks for these parents because
of their situation. This is anoption that could work for you
because you know, you guysaren't that conflict a high,
there's not a lot of conflictin this, or you two can't even

(25:10):
sit in the same room. I wouldsuggest let's do some parallel
parenting, rather. Let'sminimize drop walks . Let's
minimize communication wherepossible. Let's get as much in
that parenting plan agreed onin one five hour sitting or two
hour sitting , that you need tobe. And you don't have to come
back to it because you guyshave already sat with this ,
this heavy question. You'vemade a decision. If you do

(25:33):
wanna come back to it in two orthree years or five years time,
great. Being flexible on thatis fantastic, like I mentioned
earlier. But you know, thebasic parenting plan leaves
room for a lot of error .

Speaker 1 (25:46):
Well, and, and I think that you're, what you're
doing by working with a coach,even at the beginning, 'cause
this could be the first personthat you kind of contact,
right? It's not the attorney,it's just somebody that you
relate to, you kind of get,that gives you an efficient,
like, we're like, you're,you're just sort of a guide,

(26:07):
right? You're like, I'm gonnalead you down the path of least
resistance in this process. Butalso it's a lot of questions at
the beginning, you know, andyou are asking sometimes the
questions to the wrong person.
Like you're asking thesequestions that are very
emotional based to an attorneyand they're like, yeah, don't
care. Talk to your therapist.

(26:27):
Well , therapists are usuallytrying to keep people together
so they don't have the samereference point. And then, you
know, a divorce coach feelslike, oh, that's, you know,
like, am I giving up or am Idoing this? But really it's
coming up with the plan. Sothat's all I I wanna get, you
know, like taking a brief ideabecause having a plan, like you
said about what you want beforeeverybody comes in and layers

(26:53):
in what should a coulda, wouldakind of situation really gets
you clear on, on, on thisprocess. So talking with a
coach, I think is a piece thatmaybe some people think is a
little bit more fluffy. And Iactually think that it's a good
first start to understand.

(27:13):
Nobody wants to answer thosebeginning questions, right?
Yeah . And so if you havesomebody that can answer some
of that, it takes some of theheat even off of a mediator,
you know? Yeah . A mediator isgonna be glad that somebody's
in there kind of having thisconversation , um, and talking
it through. Um, but it doeslead us to our final, what is

(27:34):
our final delightfulco-parenting style that we're
gonna talk about,

Speaker 2 (27:40):
About the final one is parallel parenting parallel
there , there's kind of anotherlittle baby one at the end, but
parallel parenting. Soobviously we don't wanna be
doing conflicted co-parentingcooperative co-parenting is the
ideal, but parallelco-parenting is the one that
comes in handy for abusivesituations, narcissistic

(28:00):
situations, really highconflict situations where you
minimize as much contact aspossible with each other. You
know, drop offs happen atschool. Each parent is
parenting completelyindividually and they haven't
agreed on the same set ofrules. And it , it is not the

(28:22):
best style , but it is the beststyle if there is conflict,
because at least you'reeliminating the conflict. But
the cons of that is the kidsare gonna be living two very
different lives that are not inalignment with each other. So
they could be being raised by awhole different set of rules in
this home and a whole differentset of rules in this home. Um ,
it is of course best casescenario, like I said , abusive

(28:44):
situations, but ultimately thatdoes cause a lot of instability
in the children's lives. Soyeah, parallel parenting.

Speaker 1 (28:54):
Interesting. So this is maybe, and I I thought about
it when we were talking aboutmaybe putting this more into a
parenting agreement, butparallel co-parenting is gonna
be in situations where wereally have a pretty
significant narcissist orsomebody that , um, you know,
like a narcissist is gonnaforget that they agreed to do

(29:17):
certain things a certain way,you know, and they're, they're
never gonna even agree thatthey signed the document that
lists that they said that theywould do that. So it really is,
you know, establishing yourboundaries, establishing how
you're gonna do things right ina , in a very formal way.

Speaker 2 (29:36):
Yeah, definitely.
And then the final one, I thinkthat the baby one that I wanted
to mention was nesting. Um,that is usually best for when
the kids are really little.
It's something that I didreally early on. Um, when I got
divorced or filed for divorce,I was three months pregnant, so
my youngest didn't actuallyknow dad at all. Um , he only

(30:00):
met him after the first year.
So , um, due to the covidpandemic and dad working away,
he couldn't fly and he couldn'tget back. So we ended up doing
his nesting, and that's wherethe children stay in the same
home. So instead of thechildren moving homes in a
co-parenting situation, they goto mom's home and dad's home .

(30:20):
It's better for the littlebubbas and the younger children
to actually stay in the home.
And it offers them a lot ofstability and the parents
alternate in and out of thesituation. So the parents , so
the kids are staying there andit's just the parents that are
changing. So a nice little oneto consider that I don't even
think a lot of people reallyare aware of. Um , when I

(30:40):
mentioned that I was having myex stay at my house, people
were like, what , um,how are you doing that? And I
just said, it's what's best forthe kitties . And I would go
and stay away and he would staywith the kids and we would swap
around. And there were evenevenings where, you know, in
the very beginning where he ,we both stayed in the same home

(31:01):
because he needed to kind ofsee how did bath time happen,
get to know the kids a littlebit and build up that rapport.
Um , so it's always, there's somany different scenarios that
happen in divorce and so manydifferent things that, you
know, need to be taken intoconsideration. Distance is one
of them. One of my clients, Iknow he, they got divorced, he

(31:23):
lost everything in the divorce, um, finances to legal fees
and had to move eight hoursaway from his three kids. His
dad , his brother was able togive him a job. And , um, this
dad made an effort to driveeight hours once a month.
That's all he could afford togo and see his kids for a whole

(31:44):
weekend. And he made , he madeit work. And that's the ,
that's the way they could makeit work, right? Mm-Hmm ,
. Um , so there'sdistance, there's conflict,
there's communication, there's,you know, there's finances to
consider. You know, one parentmight be wealthier and be the
fun parent. One parent might bethe struggling parent. So every

(32:04):
single person or every singlemarriage and co-parenting
relationship is going to lookdifferent. And finding what
works for. Now, you might startwith nesting and then move to
cooperative co-parenting or,you know, however it looks for
you. Um , or you might startparallel parenting and you
know, might go into a littlebit more. You wanting to kind

(32:27):
of support each other more, butthere's still conflict. And you
might have a phase of conflictof co-parenting, but then you
kind of work through all thoselittle things and you get to
that ultimate cooperativeco-parenting phase. It does
take time, but our childrenlearn from, you know, we are
all human, we all makemistakes. We, you know, the
communication with yourchildren on this age

(32:49):
appropriately is always reallyimportant.

Speaker 1 (32:52):
Well, and I think even with the concept of
nesting, when you describe itto somebody that the parents
are gonna be shifting back andforth to the main house and the
kids stay pla in place. Youknow, part of it is even having
that discussion to, first ofall, if you haven't heard about
it, that's why you talk to adivorce coach. 'cause they'll
tell you things that you didn'teven think was , uh, an issue.

(33:15):
But also if it makes you kindof cringe because you're like,
Ooh , I would've to pick up andmove, it gets you in the
mentality of how you shouldthink about what your kids are
doing, right? And so it , andhow

Speaker 2 (33:28):
Your kids would feel,

Speaker 1 (33:29):
Mm-hmm.
about packing upevery single week. And, you
know, so if you can eliminate,like, okay, then you think,
okay, well what would make mehappier if I was the one that
was going back and forth, youknow, to have the same things
in both locations, you know, tohave , um, consistency with
maybe even my same bed, my samesheets. Sometimes they want

(33:51):
different rooms. Sometimes theone , you know, like, what
would I want? And then if youcan reverse and say, okay,
like, let's make sure my kidshave that too. You know, like,
if I don't wanna pack up mytoiletries every single time,
let's make sure my kids are notdoing those sorts of things.
You know? So it gets you tothink kind of outside the box a
little bit more. Um, but Ithink that in general, what,

(34:18):
what do you think kind ofhaving gone through this
process with kids as well, youknow, what are some of the tips
you have for parents that aregoing through this and maybe
even the importance of, youknow, these discussions around
parenting?

Speaker 2 (34:34):
Mm-Hmm . Um , my first one, I think it's because
, um, it was something I did isrushing the process. When
things are raw. You, you phonea lawyer, you tell , you know,
you, everything is just so raw.
I would take time, take thetime before going through
divorce and making these vitaldecisions that are gonna impact

(34:56):
your children. Take aseparation first. Don't rush
the process at all. Um , seektherapy, counseling a coach.
It's crazy to me. We have lifecoaches, we have business
coaches, we have birthingcoaches, we have coaches for
everything nowadays, butdivorce coaching is still so

(35:19):
new and it's probably the mostdifficult thing that most
people will go through is adivorce. It's your whole world
shifting. So finding someone tohelp you through that phase
that's qualified and has theskills, someone that has the
understanding and the empathy,maybe that has been through it
themselves. There'll bedifferent divorce coaches,

(35:40):
you'll resonate with someone,but getting that person that
knows options , um, because thenarrative we often tend to not
often tend to, we definitelyrely on our closest friends and
family for support immediatelyafter finding out or making the
decision. And they can bereally damaging narratives

(36:01):
around that. You know, take himfor everything. He's got, oh ,
he did this. I can't believe hedid that. He doesn't deserve
the kids. Or, and that's reallydamaging to your kids. If that
is the narrative that you'regoing into this co-parenting
relationship with, you need toconsider future co-parenting
dynamics. And what would youultimately like to have in the

(36:25):
end? Even if, even if you can'tget there right now, a divorce
coach can really help you.
Okay, this is what I wouldlike, this is my ideal
situation. And coach youthrough how to get there,
whether it be settingboundaries, learning
negotiation skills, and how tonegotiate with your ex. Um ,
something that I did very earlyin the beginning, you know, a

(36:45):
lot of moms fight for the home,the family home. We want the
family home, the family home.
We built this for our kids. Iwas exactly the same. And for
two and a half years I heldonto the home . Um , you know,
you as a , on the finance sidewould've been able to look at
me and say, Kristen , can youmaintain this house? Or, you

(37:05):
know, and moms don't. As a mom,you, you , you , you're so
protective of that nest foryour children and ultimately
had some , when I did mydivorce coaching, I was coached
on this, on can you financiallysustain that house? Do you
constantly want to have thosereminders in that home? And the

(37:26):
moment my ex also, it was gonnabe 50 50 splitting the house
and I'd learned the negotiationskills and didn't rush the
process. I gave a time he'dmoved on and I ended up
negotiating with him on nottaking 50% because I was a stay
at home mother at the time. Hewas working in a career that I

(37:48):
was in that couldn't, Icouldn't go back because I had
to be with the kids. So usingthe right negotiation skills
and having those skills canwork to your benefit, and we
managed to sell the house. Hedidn't want to take 50 50
anymore. I negotiated him outof that. And moving into the
new home is one of the mostrefreshing things you can

(38:11):
actually do for yourself. Iwould actually recommend moving
, um, because I could havedone, I did all the healing I
could. I'd seen the therapist,seen the counselors, I'd worked
with attorneys, I worked withmediators, I'd done it all. I'd
taken the time. No matter whatI did, I was still in that
space. Um , you and I, Melissa,we talk about energy all the

(38:32):
time. And , um, even thoughthough it was , I, I'd done all
the mental work to not have tobe constantly thinking of all
the things that had gone on.
There were physical remindersall the time. So , um, tiff ,
don't rush the process. Learnnegotiation skills. I would
ideally say the first point ofcontact for anyone going

(38:54):
through divorce in 2023 shouldbe a divorce coach. Because
your divorce coach is thengonna forward you onto , Hey,
instead of getting a reallyexpensive accountant, there's
people that do financemediation. Instead of rushing
to your lawyer and paying aretainer and you're in it for
the long run, get what youwant, get as much as you can

(39:15):
done by using a divorce coach.
Know all your options availableto you because I'm not here to
just win the legal battle orget fine . You know, I'm here
to make sure that for me,ultimately the children, like I
say, but you're gonna have allyour options laid out in front
of you instead of just thelegal route. And you're gonna

(39:36):
know alternate disputeresolutions, and you're gonna
know different options onstructuring parenting plans.
And the divorce coach is gonnalead you to build kind of , I
like to call your divorce team,right? You'll have your
valuation mediation, you'llhave your divorce coach, and
then you can consult with yourlawyer on the small legal parts

(39:57):
that you need to know where youstand legally. But you don't
need to have that as a wholeand your first point of contact
, um, because it's every email,every text. We've spoken about
this , I don't know how itworks there with you guys, but
here in South Africa, everyemail, every text, every
consultation, everything ischarged when you're working
with the legal team.

Speaker 1 (40:19):
Oh, oh, yeah. I mean, you know, in dealing with
this type of situation, I thinkwe just posted , um, something
recently about the fact that Ithink that people rush at the
beginning and they should , youknow, like realistically, you
should slow down at thebeginning and make a plan. And
then once you have the plan,you pedal to the metal can move

(40:41):
forward as quickly, and thenyou can use time as your , you
know, like as a leverage,basically. You know, you're
ready to hit the gas, you'reready to stop. Um, and, but
you're prepared and understandit now. So I agree. I think
that we, and it's also givingyourself some time even

(41:04):
post-divorce, to like, whatabout making a perfect nest?
You know, like, what aboutmaking something that's good
for you in this new phase of,you know, your life and your
chapter and things like that.
But I think the one final thingthat you were also gonna do for
us, you know, give us anyadditional tidbits, but maybe
even just in general, give ussome idea of how you moved

(41:30):
through some of theseco-parenting styles, like in
your own situation. Because Ithink that people can listen to
this and they're like, yeah,but I I , I get it, but like, I
don't totally understand it,you know, like, I don't, I
don't know where I'm right orwrong. Like I'm just, I'm just
trying to get through the day,like, you're, you're you , you
know, like I just tell me whatI'm doing wrong and I'll fix

(41:53):
it. But it's, it's a little bitbigger than that. It's really,
you know, it's, it's a processand it's a self-reflection, but
maybe you could give us, youknow, kind of some of your
experience and we couldreference it and kind of pull
it all together. Does that makesense?

Speaker 2 (42:08):
Yeah. Um , so actually something came up in
my mind immediately. There issomeone going through my
divorce. One of my really closefriends mentioned to me one day
and she was like, you know,some things can't be rushed,
and sometimes you just needtime. And I really think
divorce is one of those things.
And those moments with time,because the emotions when we

(42:34):
are so emotional, you cannotthink clearly . I , I look back
, um, a little while ago, my exand I are co-parenting, well,
although he's not around often,so I kind of say I'm more a
single parent , but when he ishere, it is minimal conflict.
We really co-parent well , um,the communication is great, but
it used to be hotheaded and,you know, we could eventually,

(42:59):
I had to set boundaries formyself on whenever he messaged.
I would give myself 24 hours. Iwould not reply within the
first 24 hours no matter what.
And so many times I would wannareply and I'd write things
down, and I would write themdown in my notes. Uh , I've had
so many emails and messageswritten down in my notes, 24

(43:22):
hours, just 24 hours. That'sall one day. And you'll want
those emotions. You process it, but you also need the tools
to process your emotions, notjust sitting with it. You know,
go for a run, go do whatever itis, how you learn to process
your emotions. Um , I work onmy clients with that as well.
But you know, that is 24 hourscan make the world of

(43:45):
difference in what you've sendback. And one of my clients
actually said to me the otherday, they , um, used chat GBT
to . They wrote anemail and said, chat GBT , can
you remove all the emotion fromthis to

Speaker 1 (44:03):
That's brilliant.

Speaker 2 (44:04):
And it just seems a very business, like you've
gotta see it as a businesstransaction. And your children
are a business that you want togrow, and you need to see it as
a business partner. You're notgonna go scream and shout at
your business partner in publicbecause they're, they went out
drinking last night or whateverthe case may be. And so my

(44:25):
personal experience was veryrocky in the beginning. Um , a
lot of emotions. And that's whysay don't rush the process,
because the emotions in thebeginning, we cannot think
clearly. If your emotions areup here , you've got about this
much space for clear thinking.
So when you're fed up, you needto kind of bring those emotions
down first. Don't rush theprocess. Um, if you cannot

(44:49):
verbally communicate with yourex-partner, stick to written
written formats. There'swonderful co-parenting apps
nowadays as well that logeverything. It also, AI
generates , um, a kinderresponse. Um , it'll suggest,
can we remove this word ? Can we remove that word? So

(45:09):
technology is helping , um, itkeeps track of all the kids'
activities, expenses, who paidwhat to co-parenting apps
nowadays. Fantastic. To yetagain, eliminate some of that
conflict. Um, yeah, and setboundaries. Setting boundaries
is a big one. I know when inthe beginning I was like, well,

(45:30):
what does that mean? How do I,what do, what do you mean by
setting a boundary? I don'tunderstand it. And setting a
boundary could look like dropoffs happen at the gate. Your
partner doesn't come in yourhome, your partner does . Or
the ex-partner doesn't come inthe home to fetch the kids. You
know, it might be invading yourspace if you don't want them in

(45:51):
your home setting. A boundarymay be , I don't want you to
phone me. If you have somethingto say, send me a text message
because when you phone me, youcall me names send you. But
when you text or you email,maybe you don't do that. Or
setting a boundary for yourselfin , I'm gonna wait 24 hours
before I respond, or I'm goingto delete them on social media

(46:14):
and not constantly check what'sgoing on in their lives. Um ,
something I did at , we wereliving in the social media era
from day one, I immediatelydeleted the best friends. I
deleted him. I , because Ididn't want to be triggered. Um
, and we all have triggers. Andif you got those triggers in

(46:34):
your face all the time, if yourex is coming in your house or
you go in their house and yousee things you don't wanna see,
we've gotta eliminate thetriggers, right? It's not our
fault that we may be triggered,but we need to eliminate those
triggers and reduce thepotential for feeling
triggered.

Speaker 1 (46:53):
Well, and I think that we get addicted to the
triggers, and they we're soused to that they're kind of
normal, like that rollercoasterof like a highly volatile
relationship, you know, kindof, you're like, oh , what am I
gonna do when things arepeaceful? Like I don't know how
to handle that. You know, likethose types of things. And
another thing, oh my gosh, Idon't even know if I'm gonna

(47:15):
remember at this point, but aninteresting thing that you said
about the chat, GPT , okay, soI'm gonna pull it around to, we
interviewed somebody namedVictoria, and she is a
narcissistic coach, divorcecoach. And she said something
very interesting when you'regetting divorced to a
narcissist for communication,and it kind of ties into this,
is that when you're in thedivorce , uh, with a narcissist

(47:38):
or even a supposed narcissist,right? That's showing up as one
, um, that saying please, andthank you is very, very, very
powerful, right? But when youare done and you're divorced,
you can communicate verydirect, and there can be no
pleasantries, pick up the kidstheater's canceled no more,

(47:59):
this blah, blah, blah, , and you don't have to, so
there is commu , you know ,like yeah , even communication
wise that would shift, youknow, like to get through the
divorce, you might need to be alittle bit, you've

Speaker 2 (48:11):
Gotta bottom them up a little ,

Speaker 1 (48:13):
And you're gonna hate it as a , like, you , you
don't even wanna talk to thenarcissist. You don't wanna
communi , like sometimes you'reon like absolutely no
communication. And thensomebody will say, you know, if
you could just have a quickconversation, it was like,
what, you know, there could bestrategic ways that we're using
that communication in this typeof situation, but I thought it

(48:35):
was fascinating that she waslike, after you get divorced,
no pleasantries, it's just theinfo , the facts, right? So
that type of , um, thing. Now,if somebody wanted to get ahold
of you , um, we have a coupledifferent ways that they can
get ahold of you. And right nowyou are doing a lot with

(48:57):
schools and parenting and kindof understanding, because we've
all been traumatized aschildren, regardless of who our
parents were, even if they wereamazing. You know, we all have
our, our traumas that we gothrough , um, but then we kind
of pass them along and thenthey manifest in divorces, they

(49:18):
manifest in, you know,difficult parenting. So, you
know, even if you're not goingthrough a divorce, you probably
need to work on some of thesethings. ,

Speaker 2 (49:29):
Definitely, definitely. Um, and like you
say , some of our traumas arenot our parents. It could be
from school, it could be fromfriends, it could be from
siblings. You might have had asibling who secretively bullied
you when your parents weren'twatching or intimidated you,
you know? Um , a lot of thetime I hear people say, oh ,
trauma from my childhood, andthe parents get offended. You

(49:52):
know, our generation of parentsget offended and we're like,
we're not saying it was theparents. It could have been a
numerous amount of things.
Bullying in school is a hugetraumatic event for children.
Um , but yeah , I'm working inthe schools at the moment. Like
my whole goal is working withparents, going through divorce
with kids, and , um, currentlydoing keynote speak talks with

(50:16):
the schools for the educatorson how to notice children that
are experiencing conflict. Whatare the signs of children
experiencing conflict in thehome? How to communicate with
educators with high conflictparents, how to structure
parent meetings separately, ifthe parents are high conflict,
how the educators can actuallysupport the children as well.

(50:38):
And through my educ education ,through the education system,
I'm also reaching the parentsand helping them , um, with
their parenting styles, justtransitioning into trying to
get to that cooperativeco-parenting phase or at the
very minimum, parallelparenting

Speaker 1 (50:55):
And, and , um, and they can kind of follow you on
some of your socials and getconnected to you . But like we
said, it's, it's usually aprocess. And you know, at the
beginning, if you're unsure ofhow to move forward, if you're
making the right, if you'reunsafe, if you're concerned
about these types of things,you know, I think that you, you
have to reach out in , um, someway to people that could help

(51:17):
you. And we're very consciousof how people connect with us
so that we're not , um, youknow, pushing it out to, and ,
and you have to be careful, youknow, you like in some cases,
you know, your spouse could bepaying attention to what you're
doing. Um, so it's important to, uh, to, to maybe , uh, cover

(51:39):
your trail a little bit. But , reach out to Kristen
first and then she can tell youhow to make sure you do all
those things. And we appreciateyou , um, coming on here and
talking about parenting, andwe're probably gonna have some
more parenting and some more ,um, you know, emotional things
to deal with in divorce goingforward on the podcast. So ,

(52:00):
uh, we appreciate that. Anylast things that you wanna tell
anybody about?

Speaker 2 (52:07):
Do we cover ? Not really, except it , it , it's
possible. It's possible.
Everyone thinks it's impossibleuntil it's done right. Um, it
is completely possible toachieve that no matter how
traumatic or how high con Iwould never have said, where I
am now with my ex is where wewould've been. I would not have
said this three years ago. Um ,so it is possible, even when it

(52:29):
seems absolutely impossible,just give it time .

Speaker 1 (52:33):
I love that. Well , uh, we appreciate you and we
hope to have you back and , uh,we'll see you soon.