Coping with Narcissistic Behavior During the Divorce Mediation Process

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, welcome to mediator podcast.com, a podcast
and video series aboutmediation, negotiation, and
collaboration. My name isMelissa Greg , and I'm
evaluation expert and divorcefinancial mediator in St.
Louis, Missouri. Today we'respeaking with Victoria McCoy
about coping with narcissisticbehavior during the divorce
mediation process. She's anarcissist divorce coach, a

(00:23):
motivational speaker, and thecreator of Reclaim Your Power
System based out of New York.
She helps her clients reclaimtheir power in order to make
life altering decisions from aplace of strength instead of
fear. Welcome, Victoria. Howare you?

Speaker 2 (00:38):
Hi , Melissa. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (00:41):
So, you are our favorite narcissist coach and
expert. So , um, we obviouslyare not going to just talk
about, you know, what isnarcissism. And I wanted to
kind of blanketly say at thebeginning that if you've seen
any of the videos that we'vedone before , um, that when

(01:04):
we're talking about narcissism,we're talking about personality
traits. We're talking aboutbehaviors that we see evident
and people that , um, act acertain way and divorce. We're
not necessarily saying thatthey have been officially
diagnosed this or that we couldadequately diagnose them. We're
not in the business for doingthat, but we're in the business

(01:27):
of working with narcissists ina capacity of divorce. And even
one of us has experienceddivorcing a narcissist,
. So, so maybe we couldjust start off, before we kind
of talk about going straightinto divorce mediation, maybe

(01:48):
we could just talk about whatdoes it mean as a narcissist
divorce coach? Like what, whatdoes that really, what does

Speaker 2 (01:56):
It really mean? All right . Well, there, there are
coaches for healing fromnarcissistic abuse, and there
are a multitude of divorcecoaches. I have tried to
dovetail these two differentareas together because so many
people who are divorcing aredivorcing someone because of
their narcissistic traits. Uh,so this is something that

(02:20):
instead of trying to heal andthen trying to divorce or vice
versa, we're trying to do itall together, right? We're
trying to save time and energy.
But the reality is it's veryunlikely that you're going to
be able to get through adivorce with a narcissistic
person, a highly narcissisticperson, successfully. If you

(02:41):
don't do some of that work inconjunction with the divorce,
you , you're compromised andthere's a lot of healing that
needs to be done in order foryou to go the distance because
they will try to sabotage it,just like they've done every ,
uh, uh, overpowered a lot ofthe other things in your life.
It's probably one of thereasons you're trying to leave.

(03:04):
Um, and they're overbearing.
And there's the statistic outthere. I mean, there are male
narcissists and femalenarcissists, but , um, most of
people hate it when I say this,but this is just data. Most
narcissists are men, and somost victims of narcissistic
abuse in marriage are women.

(03:25):
Um, but there's a statistic outthere that says women try to
leave a toxic relationship suchas one with a narcissist try to
leave on average seven timesbefore they finally leave for
good, which means they'resucked back in to the cycle
seven on average, seven timesbefore they can actually go the

(03:50):
distance. It's either becausethey're , they're love bombed
back in, right? They'reconvinced that I've ch I'm
gonna change. Everything'sgonna be just the way you want
it. I'm going to be a , I'mgonna do everything that you
want. And of course, thatdoesn't happen. Or they're
bullied and , uh, abused backinto the relationship. That was

(04:13):
a long answer . Well ,

Speaker 1 (04:14):
And

Speaker 2 (04:15):

Speaker 1 (04:16):
No, I think that that's great because I think
that it is hard to understandwhy we talk about narcissism,
and this is a mediationpodcast. And the only way that
I can really sort of help ourviewers understand this is that
what we have experienced inmediation and with dealing with

(04:37):
high dollar divorces is thattypically if there's a
narcissist involved on eitherside in either capacity, right,
male or female, you are goingto have a longer process.
You're going to need to be moreprepared. Um, you are fighting
somebody who is probably notgonna give up and , um, you

(05:01):
know, you, you need to notassume that this is going to be
an easy fight. So, and normallywe see, like if I really die
just or kind of figure out whatwe see when you're involved
with a business or high networth divorce and a narcissist

(05:21):
is we typically see those casesgo to trial and they will fight
until that day. So even gettingthem into mediation is a
process. And so then whenthey're there, it, it really
doesn't, it's not your be evenas a professional, even as
anybody involved in thisprocess, the narcissist is

(05:45):
going to create a differentprocess. And so that's why we
talk about it because we see itprevalent in business. We see
it prevalent in , uh, divorces, um, in relationships. And it
becomes something that if youjust wanna deal with the
finances and the emotion andthe strategy of divorce, and

(06:07):
you're not prepared for thenarcissist to be in there , um,
you're gonna fail. So , um, oryou're gonna lose, and they're
gonna make it be painful inthat process. So

Speaker 2 (06:20):
We , we , we tend to think that the justice system
is fair and is going to work atits magic and make everything
come out the way it is legallysupposed to. And that doesn't
always happen. A narcissist can, um, derail the whole thing.
They're so controlling, they'reso , um, difficult. They're so

(06:41):
exhausting that a lot of timesthat's how they get their way
by just being so frustratingthat nobody can deal with them
.

Speaker 1 (06:52):
Oh, yeah. And I've been talking about , um, this
lately, just because we've seenso much of it lately of keeping
, uh, cases, divorce cases incourt, right? Um, because you
just can't get them to movevery much. But in, in looking
at some of the narcissism orwhat's happening around, there

(07:16):
are some things that we'reseeing kind of repeated and the
behavior that we wouldtypically see narcissists do in
divorce, mediation or some ofthe patterns that you might see
where it , they're not just,and mediation, right? These are
gonna be, we're gonna probablytalk about patterns just in
general that you're going to beseeing when you're dealing with

(07:39):
these people. And becausedivorce is kind of
communication and negotiation,you're going to have to deal
with how to see this, recognizeit, and handle it in the
process. So even if we couldjust start with like, some of
the kind of typical patternsthat you see, I think that will
at least get us started inrecognizing like, how is this

(08:02):
really manifesting? Right?
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:04):
The first thing that comes to my mind is because
narcissists don't think therules apply to them , ,
it's, it's mind boggling howthey just refuse to
participate, right? Um, they,they, you better follow the
rules. They're sticklers formaking sure you follow every

(08:25):
rule, every court order, everydirection from a judge, you
know, they'll call you out ifyou're even a little off the
mark, but they don't, the rulesdon't apply to them , right?
, how ridiculousthey're above the law. Like ,
uh, they're , they should havespecial treatment. They don't
have to listen to a judge oranyone else, right? So when,

(08:47):
just from the very beginning,discovery, when there's a , a
call for discovery orinterrogatories, they just
don't participate. They,there's a date that doesn't
mean anything to them . Andthen their lawyer is like, you
know, extensions and delays andtrying to come up with excuses.

(09:10):
And, you know, that's when thelawyer starts getting
frustrated. But, you know,until they get dragged into a
court, and this could be a yearbefore this happens, before
they get dragged in front of ajudge who then they go, what's
the deal? And then of course,the judge now has to give them
time to perform. So even thenthey don't get thrown in jail.

Speaker 1 (09:31):
Well, and we should, we should probably take each
pattern one by one, becauseyou're gonna come up with so
many, it's gonna be crazy. Butthat one is such a good one and
all I would add, like I have somuch to add, but I'll add one
thing, is that they're bigger.
They think that they're biggerthan the law, which makes you
just think the court system.

(09:53):
No, no, no. They're bigger thanthe IRS, which means that they
will change their tax return.
They don't care how they've,what they put on there, they'll
make it up. They don't care.
They don't care about thepolice. They will come in and
enter your residence and takestuff from you and be like,
well, it used to be my house.
It used to be my stuff. Ibought that for you. You know?

(10:16):
So they're above the law inall, they're above probably God
in the church, right? And, andso that's, that's a pattern
that goes wide and deep. Yes.
Right?

Speaker 2 (10:29):
Absolutely. No one's gonna tell them what to do.
They'll show you, they'll justdo it. And the, the frustrating
part is they usually get awaywith it. They usually get like
a reprimand or a slap on thewrist. Nobody throws them in
jail. You know, it's just, andthey don't care. They know
they're going to get away withit .

Speaker 1 (10:47):
And you talked about, and this was probably in
our prior , um, video, but youtalked about how the narcissist
kind of chooses the person, youknow, like they have a pattern
of people that they kind ofwill be attracted to. And
that's part of the pattern is,and I've noticed it after you
told me that, is that thepattern of the spouse, that's

(11:11):
not the narcissist necessarily,is, is that they will kind of
placate or , um, you know, lookat why is my spouse not
following all the rules, likethe , the , how could you file
it , who would file a taxreturn? And, and with incorrect
information, and I was like anarcissist every day of the

(11:34):
week, right? Yeah,

Speaker 2 (11:37):
Yeah. Every day .
Um, yeah. So they're attracted,I've heard so many versions of
this since I, since I've talkedabout it, I always talk about
the victim, the person thatthey're with as the good girl,
right? Because if thenarcissist is a man and they're
married to a woman, she'stypically the good girl. She's
ambitious, and , uh,overachiever, conscientious,

(12:01):
rule follower, law abide or boxchecker list maker, right?
We're efficient. We're, we're,we get things done and we rise
to a challenge. So when there'sfallout, we're like, we can fix
that. We'll , I can do that. Ican, I can fix that, right?
We're, we're trying to fixeverything. Then I heard

(12:23):
someone say something reallyinteresting. It's like, yes,
we're high achievers and, and,and intelligent, all these
things. And that is thechallenge for them. How much
fun would it be for them tooverpower and victimize and be
abusive to somebody who wasalready weak? That's like,

(12:44):
anybody could do that. That'sno challenge for them. We are
the challenge, right ? Mm-Hmm .
, I'm gonna takethis strong, intelligent, high
achieving person. I'm gonnawear them down, I'm gonna
destroy them. And they do.

Speaker 1 (13:01):
That's also when they talk about like a yin and
a yang, right? They'll be like,oh, well my, you know, like I'm
the risk taker. The narcissistis sometimes the risk taker,
and then the other spouse isnot right? And they're like the
rule follower. Well, you know,they keep me, and , and, and in
some capacity, it then willcome to the mediation. And then

(13:24):
the mediation, I think you'vetalked about it, is the
narcissist will kind ofdistract you with things that
you have to do, right? Andmeanwhile, you're chasing those
things around, and really we'reignoring all of the big issues,

Speaker 2 (13:41):
Right? So

Speaker 1 (13:43):
Distraction is a big thing, right?

Speaker 2 (13:45):
Very big thing. And when you start addressing their
big issues that they're doing,they will immediately get you
off of that. Or get a mediator,or a judge or a lawyer, anyone,
they're so gifted at this backonto the small thing you did
wrong. Like, you drop the kidsoff at half an hour late, and

(14:07):
that's what the focus is on.
But no, but my children meanmore to me than that. And
that's, she's keeping thechildren, and they'll just
repeat and repeat and repeatuntil even a court has no
choice but to address thething. Because they're , they
get stuck on it. . Imean, I know everybody out

(14:29):
there who's listening, who'smarried to a narcissist, is
shaking their head yes. Theyjust repeat and repeat and
repeat. Like, there's somethingwrong with them. Like, why do
you keep saying this over andover? It's such a tactic they
use, because it becomes true.
If they, if they say somethingenough times, people start
perceiving it as the truth.

(14:49):
Judges, lawyers, juries,whatever.

Speaker 1 (14:53):
Another thing that I think that we'll see often is
that they will, you know, andwe're, we're around the
holidays and stuff. You, youwill see how they behave around
the holidays, will sometimesmimic the mediation or the
court dates because they'rekind of stressful times or

(15:13):
whatever. And I'll see , um,narcissists will kind of below
it, like, it'll be dramatic. Itwill be like, oh my gosh, my
car died on the way here and Ilost eight tires and I replace
, I lost them again. You know,like, it becomes this like kind
of drama. Um, that's also adistractor in the mediation.

(15:36):
You know, if everybody'stalking about your car for 30
minutes, we've wasted thousandsof dollars. Um, literally not
talking about anything. Right?
Right , right, right.

Speaker 2 (15:46):
I mean, the delay tactics. I just remember in my
own , my divorce, bythe way, took six years
, and then there were , uh,because of the delay tactics.
Mm-Hmm . . Andthen there were more, there was
post-divorce motion practicefor another seven years after
they said we were just for theentire , uh, childhood of my

(16:09):
children, , until theywere emancipated. I was in
court. So I can't tell you howmany people died during that
time. , it was like mymother died, my father died, my
grandmother, my, mygirlfriend's father died. Like
all these deaths that weren'treal, you know, about, I
couldn't, I didn't show up forcourt and I didn't give any
notice because my mother died . It's like , right .

(16:32):
How many times is she gonnadie? It's amazing.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
Well, and that does kind of, that is one of the
ways that we see a narcissistbehavior affect the process of
mediation and, and peopleinvolved. One is prolonging it,
right? But what are some of theother patterns that kind of
manifest in, in messing upthings, if you will?

Speaker 2 (16:59):
Well, the , the outright, well , the first
thing we talked about was notparticipating, just not
adhering to any, any directionof turning things over. Having
it get all the way to a judge,which takes forever, as you
know. And then delaying thosedates that they can, a simple
thing, a first step, likediscovery, easily. They can

(17:20):
push it off a year easily.
Right? It's, it's so easy. Um ,so even showing up for a
deposition, if that's nextright? They'll delay it a
hundred times. People will die,cars will break down. It will
be unbelievable. The strugglesto get to a deposition, then

(17:41):
they get to the deposition. Wewere talking about this before
too. The , the nonsensicalanswers, the circular, when I
read some of these things, youjust wanna pull your hair out.
It's so frustrating. They cantake an eight hour day and not
answer one question. True.

Speaker 1 (18:03):
Uh , I mean, it's almost uncanny. And I think
that, you know, if there's onething that you should do, if
you're getting divorced tosomebody who you even remotely
think is a narcissist, becausethey're gonna think you're one
too, right? They're gonna saythat you're one too. So if
they're saying that you're one

Speaker 2 (18:22):
Projection ,

Speaker 1 (18:23):
It might be true that they're one, right ? Even
in, in , even in understandingthat they will not wanna be
clear with any of theinformation. So not the
physical information, right .
In giving it to you be like,oh, I thought you wanted this
red piece of paper and I gaveyou it. No, no. I wanted what

(18:43):
would all would be on the pieceof paper? Oh, you know, like,
okay, well, let me try again.
You know ? Mm-Hmm .
, and it's, it'sthis go back and forth, but
it's trying to understand thequestioning and trying to
understand how you maintainyour, the consu direction,
right? Well ,

Speaker 2 (19:04):
Yeah. Which is what I was talking about in the
beginning about how you have towork on your own emotional
healing in order to get throughthis. It's so frustrating,
right? And no more normalpeople don't typically have to
deal with someone like this forvery long anyway. Right? So you
are in this divorce from one ,um, and you're already

(19:28):
triggered. You're leavingbecause of this, you were
married to this person, . So yeah, I mean, we're always
triggered by our spouse, butthis is like compounded so, so
many times. So we have to comeup with tricks and, and there
are ways that I can helpclients figure out what their

(19:50):
specific trick needs to be.
It's a very personal thing.
Like we, we visualize , uh,bulletproof shields when
they're throwing looks at usthat can't penetrate, or their
words that can't penetrate, or, um, my , for myself, I
remember without realizing itwas a , a trick or a tactic, I

(20:11):
had this one junior lawyer whowould always go to depositions
with me, and she and I wouldpass notes. And that helped a
lot, like laughing about hisbehaviors. So, you know, you're
not crazy . And , um, soyou have some camaraderie over

(20:31):
it. Like, I'm not crazy. Thehardest pill to swallow, I
think is that, you know, howmuch this costs to sit in a
conference room with a courtreporter, right? Somebody
typing all this , uh, yourlawyer, his lawyer, maybe a
second set of lawyers, maybe alog guardian for eight hours or

(20:54):
whatever. This is likethousands and thousands of
dollars a day that are futile,that produce nothing except
hopefully showing hisabstinence, you know, that he
won't comply.

Speaker 1 (21:11):
Well, and a a narcissist is always like
everybody, I I think everybodyperceives that narcissists are
lying. Narcissists have toldthemselves the truth, that they
also believe right now thatcould have been a lie, was
whatever they told themselves,right? So it appears that it's
a lie, but when you're talkingto a narcissist, they're gonna
go between this, like, I knowexactly what it is. And then

(21:35):
you say, okay, well, you knowexactly what it is, and then
the next question's gonna belike, so tell me more about
exactly what it is. And they'llbe like, I, I don't know
anything about that. You know,like the , the , the , they
flip flop a lot, like talk alot , a little bit about that.
Like, they'll be the smartestperson in the world, and then
they'll be de lately they'd beself-deprecating. Like, I don't

(21:56):
know anything about this. Okay. In the same thing. Yeah. I

Speaker 2 (22:00):
Got you . So this is, this is what we talk about
a lot in my coaching program,is seeing them for their
emotional level instead ofthey've presented to you and
you're, you're triggered to seethem as this big scary monster
that you're afraid of. So wetry to flip that and see them
as this very disordered andcompromised person who

(22:25):
emotionally is a toddler,right? And they really can't do
any better. Um, I don't wantyou to feel sorry for them ,
but I want you not to expectmuch more from them. So when
they behave this way, itshouldn't be any big surprise.
Right? And when we, we talkabout how it's like, if your

(22:45):
toddler had a meltdown in thegrocery store, that's
inconvenient. It's annoying,but, you know, you don't get
too upset about it. 'cause theycan't do any better. They're
tired. They need a nap, theyneed a cookie. I don't know.
Like, it's not really theirfault because they can't do any
better with their emotionalmaturity level. So same

(23:09):
, they can't do this anydifferently. So I, instead of
feeling frustrated by theirbehavior, I would hope that you
could turn it around and feelempowered by it. Like, oh, this
person is really damaged. Like,wow, that's really embarrassing

(23:30):
and bad. That's Oh , poorthing. Poor thing. He really is
showing how , uh, compromisedhe's,

Speaker 1 (23:39):
Well, and it's interesting because it is a
shift, like as you're talkingabout that. 'cause when the
spouses come in at thebeginning, you know, and even
in the mediation you'll seethat the one spouse will , um,
basically build up thenarcissist and say like,
they're so smart, and they're,they're so conniving and

(24:02):
they're gonna trick you andthey're gonna get away with it.
And, you know, all of thesethings, unfortunately, is also
very true. Um, but you know,it, you, you have to prepare
yourself for having that be adifferent view as you go
through this process. And howyou communicate to them is

(24:25):
going to be changing thatviewpoint, which is very
difficult for people.

Speaker 2 (24:30):
Well , so can you hear what we're saying? This is
so important because we'resaying that instead of you're a
flying monkey, basically whenyou're doing that, you're doing
the narcissist work for them.
You're saying, oh, lawyermediator, you better be
prepared. This guy is reallygood. He's really smart. He's
gonna get you, he is gonnatrick you. He's gonna , he's so

(24:53):
good at this. Like, wow. So nowwe're all seeing , we're all
scared of this guy. Whereas ifit was like, oh, mediator, he's
really got some emotionalissues, you know, so we can't
expect normal behavior, right?
It's like he's not gonna beable to tell the truth. He's

(25:13):
not gonna be able to , uh,answer a question. He's, you
know, he can't, his default isto lie. So it's, it's part of
his disorder. And now you'realigned in being the mature
people in the room.

Speaker 1 (25:31):
Well, and in some capacities, if you're, if
you're looking at, you know,how they show up in a room, how
everybody's dealing with them,how their kind of , um,
children, you know, they'relike disruptive children
basically in this process. Um,some of the other things that

(25:54):
they will do is deflect some ofthe responsibility. And, but in
order for you to really pindown a narcissist, you have to
do it in public, and you haveto do it with other people
around. So like, the mediationreally is a good place to have

(26:18):
those communications becauseyou're getting them to commit,
you know, like a deposition.
It's on the record too. Sothat's a good suggestion. But
we're typically not doingdepositions in a mediation,
right? Right. You can havehybrid, like a lot of people
are doing mediation, you know,so even if you're like, looking

(26:43):
at trying to get your spouse todo mediation, like are there
any considerations legally orprotective measures that we can
even do to get them,

Speaker 2 (26:54):
Here's what , here's what I see a lot of the
narcissist pushing formediation, because they feel
confident that they canpersuade charm win over a , a
mediator.

Speaker 1 (27:13):
Yep . Yep .

Speaker 2 (27:14):
And so it really, you need the right mediator.
I've seen it go both ways. I'veseen mediators fall for it, And
I've also seen mediatorstotally get their number. And I
had one client, oh my gosh, itwas a long time ago. It was
back when I, I hadn't seenmediation work with people like

(27:36):
this. And this workedbrilliantly because he was a
doctor and he had like seriousemotional issues that he didn't
want anyone to know about. Hehad , um, anger management
issues, he had control issues.
He had, you know , all thesenarcissistic traits. He did not
wanna psych eval. That was hisbig fear of being called out.

(28:01):
So the narcissist , uh, themediator saw him right away for
what he was. And every time hewouldn't agree to anything that
that was fair, you know, thathe was just, you know, being
dismissive or, or notparticipating, she'd go, okay,
well, it's just gonna go totrial and I'm, I'm gonna
suggest a , a psych eval andthat would just do it. So they

(28:24):
ended up doing a quick and fairsettlement.

Speaker 1 (28:29):
Yeah. And, and the only thing that I can liken it
to is that in all questioningor , or discussions with a
narcissist or somebody withthat traits, they're going to
either be trying to get morenarrow in the que , you know,
like, okay. You know, like,did, did you have a blue piece
of paper for breakfast? And itwas like, well , well , what do

(28:52):
you mean? Did , did you mean,did , did I put my breakfast on
top of a blue piece of paper?
? It's like, no, I'm,I'm asking you, did you eat a
blue piece of paper forbreakfast? Well, well, no, but
I , but I had a blue piece ofpaper there. Are you asking if
the blue people , you know,like it's gonna be a constant
trying to narrow to force youto narrow them down to the

(29:12):
specific thing that they couldsay yes or no to.

Speaker 2 (29:16):
I'm just gonna be devil's advocate here for a sec
. Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . Idon't think that, that might
not be their motivation forthat. Okay. Yeah . I really ,
I've seen that a million timesand I think it's all a delay
tactic and Oh , a trying towear you down tactic. I don't
think they, they're justlooking for ways to keep it

(29:39):
going to frustrate you to neveranswer it . It , it's just a
game.

Speaker 1 (29:46):
Mm-Hmm, , it's a game. I
think, I think that that is thebiggest thing that you have to
take away from thisconversation is that at the
game, which is exactly why itis so important to understand
it if you are playing the gameof mediation or negotiation,

(30:07):
because if you misinterpretthat player in the game, you'll
lose. And you might not evenknow you lost until it's over.
Right. So understanding, so

Speaker 2 (30:25):
Wait, tell me more about that.

Speaker 1 (30:27):
Well, so if you just think, if you take a, a
narcissist at face value,right? Whatever they say, like,
we normally think, okay, peopleare telling us the truth, like,
you are gonna be led .

Speaker 2 (30:40):
'cause we do .
That's, that's our reality. Sowe expect that other people are
doing that too,

Speaker 1 (30:45):
Right? And we al you know, like we're professionals
in divorce, so we're, we're,you know, like there's three
sides to every story. So maybethey're not as bad as they, you
know, like, so we go into itwith this, right ? If you don't
understand how they're going tomanipulate the system, you will
literally be like, and I, I , Ifeel like you gave me this

(31:06):
analogy, but maybe likeliterally like they , that
you're like, you're the dog andthey're playing fetch with you,
and they toss a ball into thecorner and they're like, go get
it. They're like, oh, you wantdiscovery? Well, we'll let you
beg for it and we'll throw thatball in the corner a hundred
different times. As opposed toif you know that it's
happening, you can be like, oh,okay, I saw the ball. I'm not

(31:28):
gonna go for it. I'm gonna stayon what I'm here to do. You
know, like, and understand thatthere is a, a strategy with a
narcissist and without anarcissist. So I , I think that
they can trick you and if youjust think it's, oh, you know,
they're just

Speaker 2 (31:46):
Right. Okay. So yeah , you have to realize that
every delay is false. Everydelay is a tactic to delay
things. Um, look, it's hard.
It's really hard to get aheadof it because you're dealing
with a court system, right? So,well in mediation, you , it's

(32:07):
not open-ended, right? You havea finite amount of time, right?
That you have Mm-Hmm , . And then it's
like, when these are exhausted,then it's gonna go to trial. So
you, you can't, you can't waitforever, right? You have to, if
they're not gonna producediscovery, then I guess the

(32:27):
thing is, okay, so how do we,how do we make a case for the
fact that they won't producediscovery, right? How do we use
that instead of gettingfrustrated that they're not
producing anything, say, Hey,your Honor, obviously they're
withholding information, or tryto expedite it that way. Am I

(32:49):
making sense? It's like, usewhat you thought instead of
what they won't give you.

Speaker 1 (32:55):
Yeah. And I don't , I don't think it's like, it's,
I don't think it's working. Ithink this is a bigger
conundrum that a narcissist isgonna fight until they die,
right? Like, so if you thinkyou're gonna like out weight
them , you are wrong . So ifyou can't use time as a lever

(33:16):
in a negotiation, then you haveto see what else are you in
control of? The, the , thewhole thing about a narcissist
is you're not in control ofthem at all. . I know.

Speaker 2 (33:27):
You know , and you know, so nobody believes that
you think that you're gonna goin and, oh, the judge is gonna
be the person to makeeverything fair. A lot of
times, and I would say mosttimes, whatever you can get
them to agree to, and you know,they'll move the goalpost, even
if they say they'll agree tosomething, then when you agree
to that, they'll say, well,that's not valid. And no, I

(33:49):
didn't say that I said this, orlike , whatever. But if you can
get them to agree to anything,it's probably better to cut
your losses than to try it is ,I hate to say that it's so
discouraging, but if you're nottalking about huge sums of
money, the, the length of time,the frustration and the cost of

(34:14):
going through this years longprocess with them, it's hard to
believe that you're not goingto get vindication at the end
of it. You're not gonna havesomebody swoop in and save you
and say, oh, he was wrong. He'sbad. You're good. Here's
everything for you. It's nevergonna happen.

Speaker 1 (34:32):
Yeah. And I think that that's the difficult part
is that I am seeing that innegotiation. It they are, they
are the most difficult piece towork around because they don't
allow you to work around them,but also that they won't quit.
And so in some capacity, normalnegotiations, you can use time

(34:56):
in your favor. You canmanipulate time. Like I can
withhold things and I can givethings. When you have one
person that is just gonnawithhold until you break, then
you have to start to say, okay,what am I okay with? Is it
enough and could I exit rightnow? The problem is the person

(35:18):
that's getting divorced is arule follower. So they're like,
yeah, but, but, but, but wedidn't talk about all these
things and it's not fair and wedidn't do everything right .

Speaker 2 (35:27):
It's a crazy dynamic . It's, that's why this is such
a frustrating and horrifyingprocess. Uh, it's when somebody
is in a narcissisticrelationship and they're trying
to break free from it, what dowe tell them? No contact. Get
away from this person. Don'thave any con Well, here you are
divorcing one, you have to havecontact. It , it's, it's

(35:50):
counterproductive, right?
You're having to engage heavilywith the one person you need to
not even see or speak to.

Speaker 1 (36:01):
And that , and that spouse, if they really did it
well right? Could actuallynegotiate against this , the
narcissist very well, but theywould have to become strong and
not believe that. And that isthe other harder part in the

(36:21):
mayor , in , in the divorce.
Right. You're probably gonnaget there after. Yeah. But in
the divorce, to be able to takethat position, you know, is
very difficult because in somecapacity in mediation, in
litigation, in anything, theperson that needs to take the
stand up against the narcissistis the spouse. Right?

Speaker 2 (36:44):
So many times, yeah.
So many times, just like yousaid , um, we wanna believe
that people are telling us thetruth because that's what we
would do On top of that, I hearpeople say, but he would never
do that to me. He would ne no,he would never do that to the
kids. He would never Yes , hewould. And nobody can believe

(37:07):
it until you see it. Oh, Iknow, I know he lied. I know
he's bad . I know that was abad, I know he is really bad
and yeah, I have to leave themarriage. But he would never
hurt the kids that way.

Speaker 1 (37:16):
Mm-Hmm.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
He would

Speaker 1 (37:19):
Well, 'cause they have no

Speaker 2 (37:22):
Empathy , right?
Yeah. It's part of theirdisorder.

Speaker 1 (37:27):
Well, and that kind of leads me to something like
in here, you know, in somecapacity in talking about what
the role the mediator plays,like, it's like you can't just
sit back . Okay, but what ,what does the role of the
mediator, you know, like how doyou deal with the narcissistic

(37:47):
behavior during this process?
Because I will tell you, Ithink more often people ignore
it. And so maybe we need toknow how would you actually
deal with it if you're themediator and you see somebody
coming in that's a narcissist,basically.

Speaker 2 (38:07):
So I always fantasize about being a
mediator and mediating one ofthese things. , maybe my
next career I'll be a mediator.
But knowing them so well,having studied this behavior,
this personality disorder forso long, and knowing so much
about it , I would get so much, um, satisfaction out of

(38:33):
challenging and saying, oh,that is , is that your
statement? That's what's true.
What do you have to documentthat? And I would ask the other
person, what do you have torefute that? Right? Mm-Hmm,
, I would, Iwould call 'em out. I would
say, well, I'm supposed to justbelieve that what you say is
true. Well, why wouldn't I justbelieve what she says is true?

(38:56):
You're saying what she says isnot true. So why should I, you
have to show me not takeanything they say at face
value. I would say, show mesomething. Show me anything.
What? Constant , what? Well,this is an example we use all
the time how they tell youthings , um, and you're

(39:16):
supposed to believe them, butthere's nothing to support it.
Like, you're a terrible driver.
That's one of their favorites.
I don't know why you're aterrible. And people will go,
oh, well, I'm a terribledriver. Well , why do you think
you're a terrible? Well , hetells me all the time, I'm a
terrible driver. Whatsupporting documents are there?
Do you have tickets? Do youhave accidents? Do you have
DUIs? Do you have, what? Whatmakes, has anyone else ever

(39:37):
told you you were a terribleWell, no, but like, okay , well
there's no supporting evidencethen. So even something like
that. Well, she always yells atthe kids. Do you have anything
to support that? Do you havedocumentation? Do you have a
recording? Do you have anyother witnesses who, who can
testify to that? Where is thatcoming from? Right? I don't

(39:59):
believe anything you say unlessyou can verify it somehow.

Speaker 1 (40:06):
Well, and I think that from a financial aspect in
mediation in general, we areaccepting what people say more
often and not getting thefinancial documentation or any
documentation. But I think whatyou're mentioning is even
deeper than that. It's that ifyou are gonna say that, you

(40:31):
know, this is blue, then I'mgonna come back to you and say,
okay, instead of going to theother person and saying, Hey,
why is this not blue? And weall look and we're like, okay,
but can you see it's not blue?
Like what , what? You know,like instead, that's pretty
good though. If you go back tothe person that said it was

(40:54):
blue and say, okay. Um, andyou, you're not even saying,
because as a mediator, you haveto kind of be unbiased, right?
Right, right. And so you're notsaying , um, Hey, it's not
blue. Right? You're reallygoing back and saying, okay, so
could you provide me with moreinformation on why this is blue

(41:14):
and get them to, because you'lluncover the straw man behind
everything that they say isbss. Mm-Hmm. .
Like, they're literally makingup the narrative,

Speaker 2 (41:26):
Right? And oh my God, will there be held to pay?
They will despise you forquestioning them. How dare you?
How dare you not subscribe towhatever craziness I present
here? How dare you? Mm-Hmm, . And you'll, you
as a mediator must prepare tobe hated by this

(41:48):
person. And that undoes a lotof people, right? They're, oh,
oh, this person doesn't likeme. Well, you know, I'm
supposed to be unbiased. I'msupposed to be fair. Well, no,
they're gonna hate you if yousay anything that contradicts
or doesn't, just allow them tosay whatever they wanna say.

Speaker 1 (42:05):
But, but as a mediator, you should know that
the narcissist is gonna smilewhile they do it . So you'll
think that they like you. So itshould be okay. But I think
it's, it's interesting

Speaker 2 (42:16):
Now when , now when they push, you push them to
another level,

Speaker 1 (42:20):
Well

Speaker 2 (42:20):
Then they can't control, then the mask falls
off.

Speaker 1 (42:23):
And another layer to this is that the more you make
the narcissist work to getdocuments, to pull together
things to prove their position,they will typically not do
those things and not prove outtheir position. So as a
mediator, you then have tolike, follow it back up at the

(42:44):
next meeting and be like, okay,you , you did not provide me
with any support, so I'm goingto have to assume that that is
not correct. And then pressuretest them again to prove at
Ansel. I think that's a really,really good strategy, actually.
Um, now some of the strategiesthat I think that we're gonna

(43:06):
talk about next are hard,because when you're in a
divorce with a narcissist, theytypically have gone so far,
it's been, it's too far, andit's just egregious. And you
feel so violated by how farthey've pushed this, that some

(43:28):
of the strategies that youreally need to do is how you
can maintain your sense ofcomposure and clarity when this
is happening in real time.
Which is because a narcissistis going to push you, not
because they're trying to,well, they're trying to, but
they're gonna push you to thebrink of pushing you off the

(43:51):
edge every time they can. And,and you are going to have to
figure out how to not walk offthat plank. But it's very hard
for people to do that.

Speaker 2 (44:03):
Yeah. So I'm , is this, are these strategies for
you as a mediator or? For

Speaker 1 (44:09):
Me, I feel like, I feel like this is my counseling
session. , yes . I feellike this is helping me as a
mediator, but I , but I thinkin general, okay , it is it
when, because you told me thata lot of times the mediators
will also hire attorneys or Imean, sorry, the narcissist
will hire attorneys that arealso have some narcissistic

(44:29):
tendencies. So I feel like as apractitioner, if you are gonna
really negotiate, you need tobe able to like, keep it
together, or the person, thespouse, the the person has to
keep it together during themediation. So I feel like it's
all of us need to figure outhow to deal with that when
they're in play.

Speaker 2 (44:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
And you know, there , this isnot rocket science. This is
just coping techniques that areacross the board. There's
nothing new here. It's aboutbreathing exercises, but all
these things or, orvisualizations or whatever
technique, I mean, I can walkthrough them, but the real

(45:10):
strategy is to have them at theready. Because when you're
triggered, you don't think ofthat you're, you're in the
moment, right? And you'rereactive. So it's about
practicing role playing andgoing, okay, say, and this is
what we do and my program's,like I am the narcissist, and I

(45:31):
say this and it triggers you,and the mediator seems to
believe it. And you're like,I'm undone by this. So what are
you gonna do? You, they get a ,I'm always telling people, they
get a snapshot, like you as amediator, you get a snapshot of
these two people. You don'tknow them long term . You're,
you're taking them at facevalue, right? You at first

(45:52):
don't know who the good guy is,who the bad guy is. And you
don't know who to believe, whonot to believe. So when
somebody reacts to somethingthat doesn't seem to you as
being a big deal, but they'retriggered by it, who looks like
the unhinged party, the onewho's reacting, like maybe they

(46:13):
fly off the handle, maybethey're dramatic or like
overreact or whatever. It'sbecause they are triggered by
the thing that just happened.
So it's so important topractice that. And when that
happens to, you know, whatyou're going to do, you don't
have to think, what should Ido? You know, already when this
happens, I do this. When thishappens, I write whatever it is

(46:37):
on my paper , uh, you know, Iwill not ev I will not react. I
will not react. I will not,well , whatever it is with your
tool that you're going to use,know what it is and be ready to
start it. Maybe it's, I'mbreathing in for four counts.
I'm holding my breath for fourcounts and I'm breathing out
for four counts. You know , I'mgonna stare at my hand. I'm go

(46:58):
, whatever is gonna take youout of that and into a
different mindset.

Speaker 1 (47:06):
Yeah. And I think that even the practitioners
sometimes get, you know, like,because you could have a
mediation that also hasattorneys and sometimes
everybody gets wrapped up withwhat the, how the narcissist is
dictating the meeting. And Ithink that one of the reasons

(47:28):
why I think that you talkingabout like your own mental
readiness is important andpeople would think, oh, that's
not a big deal. But it is somuch of a big deal because if
you have a plan of what youwanna talk about, like your
important priorities for themediation or for the divorce,

(47:49):
if you continue to allow thenarcissist to distract you, you
will only talk about the thingson their list. And you will
never get to the things on yourlist. 'cause you'll run out of
time. That

Speaker 2 (48:02):
Is such a good point. So always, always err on
the side of saying less, right?
Don't be the person who talksall the time, let them hang
themselves. But you go in withyour list, your top three
priorities that have to beaddressed. And when something's
been going on with thenarcissist for too long and you

(48:25):
see that it's not gettinganywhere you, and you haven't
said a word in all this timethat they've been rambling, you
say, excuse me, Ms . Mediator,this doesn't seem to be a
productive use of this timeright now. Um, could we please
move on? I'd like to addressthis next topic. What are you
as mediator going to say?

Speaker 1 (48:45):
Well, I , I think that that is very, I mean,
that's a very good way ofcommunicating your frustration
at paying for this process. AndI think the mediators are
always cognizant of not wastingtime on topics that are not
important , um, or moving theneedle. But it's also, you

(49:09):
know, I like to tell people tocome up with some mantras
because what you'll hear fromthe narcissist is mantras of
like, I don't know . I don'tknow . And you come up with
those same mantras of like, Idon't feel like this is a topic
to be handled in the mediation,can we move on? But it has,
when you have a mantra and yousay it the same way, what it

(49:33):
triggers is that all theprofessionals will start to
hear it being said over andover and they'll start to see,
oh, this has happened. Three,it will create the pattern
recognition in all of them. Ilove that . That they see what
the narcissist is doing now.
Right. Whereas it might nothave triggered, they're just
listening to stories, back andforth stories, but they're not

(49:55):
hearing the pattern of thenarcissist. So you create your
own pattern of like, thank you.
Um, but I came with threetopics and I wanted to talk
about the kids, the house andthe car. And I still feel like
we have not addressed thosetopics. We go get distracted.
Okay. I would like to refocuson the three topics I came here

(50:16):
to talk about. And I feel likewe've gotten distracted from
those topics. Now, if you hearthat four times, you're gonna
be like, shoot, I think we'redistracted from the topics

Speaker 2 (50:26):
. And

Speaker 1 (50:27):
That is the power of turning the narcissistic
behavior back on them in somecapacity. Right ?

Speaker 2 (50:35):
Right , right, right, right. But

Speaker 1 (50:38):
Now

Speaker 2 (50:39):
Good, good prevailing over evil though.
, like , you're usingit for good, not evil.

Speaker 1 (50:45):
Yeah. Because you, you will frustrate yourself by
continuing to respond to themin a way that addresses their
question. So like, well, isn'tit true that you drive bad and
you're gonna try to be like,well, I don't drive bad because
of A, B and C. Now you knowthose things because you've had
this conversation 1800 timesalready. Right? Right. So you

(51:09):
have to have something thatcomes back in the form of, I
understand that you believethat's important. It is not
important right now we need tomove on. Now that directness is
gonna do one of two things.
It's either gonna enrage thenarcissist, which then they
have an audience and they canbe enraged, or it's gonna get

(51:29):
them to fall in line even ifthey're faking the falling in
line, which then accomplishesthe task of making the
mediation continue. Right?
Right .

Speaker 2 (51:38):
Yeah. I love that.

Speaker 1 (51:40):
Again, working with somebody like you to
understand, and that's what wehave been kind of trying to
talk through things is like,like how do you understand the
narcissist in these situations?
The other thing that you talkedabout, which I think sometimes
is a reason why they will beinvolved with the process is
the money. Like they, a lot ofnarcissists, they may have a

(52:04):
lot of money, but they don'twanna spend it always.

Speaker 2 (52:07):
Oh, no.

Speaker 1 (52:08):
And they definitely don't wanna spend it on you or
this process.

Speaker 2 (52:12):
Right, right. Well that's why they're also
inclined to push for mediationbecause they think it'll be a
more cost effective way andthat they can overrule control
it or control Yeah. Thesituation better than they
would be able to over , uh, tocontrol a judge isn't always
true. But , um, yeah, sotwofold. So they, they always

(52:34):
are the ones pushing formediation and some in some
states it's required. So yes.
Um, it's good to have thisknowledge, you know, have these
tools in your tool belt. So ifyou do go to mediation, you
don't let the narcissistcontrol the scenario. Um, and

(52:58):
you , you know, how to notreact and how to make it more
efficient. And actually, youknow, I tell my clients, think
of it as a fishing , the oneswho have to and know that they
wanna go to trial. I'm like,this is a great exercise. Think
of it as a fishing expedition.
What information can you getfrom this?

Speaker 1 (53:19):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (53:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:20):
If you have to do that two hours of mediation,
you should definitely use it toget something. But I think an
interesting thing that I wantyour take on as I've gone
through this, I think that whenyou have a narcissistic spouse,
I almost believe that you needto hire a mediator that's the
opposite. Sex of the spouse.

(53:40):
That's a narcissist. Now,normally you would say hire
somebody that's like thembecause you can kind of use the
mediator to tell them how to doit, but in some capacity, if
they're opposite, I think theyhave less control. Now they
might not allow it to evenhappen like that, but like what

(54:01):
are your thoughts about that? I

Speaker 2 (54:03):
Would agree with that. I , I'm thinking of the
ones that have been successfuland they have been women and a
narcissistic man, femalemediators and a narcissistic
man. The ones that stand out inmy mind is going really well
for my client. So I would agreewith that. Um, but the
narcissist that sees a femaleand they go, oh, easy peasy.

(54:26):
I'm gonna charm the pants offof this mediator. Right? I'm
gonna have her eating outta myhand. I'm gonna like control
this whole scenario. But if themediator is well versed in this
type of disorder, yes , thenmaybe not.

Speaker 1 (54:41):
And vice versa could also be true. If you had a
narcissist woman Mm-Hmm , you might want to
leverage. You know, again, youknow, if if you're , if you
have to do that mediation, itis a fact finding , use it for
your benefit. Um, anotherthing, 'cause I know we've been
talking a lot about this and Ido love it, but , um, one thing

(55:04):
that I think we also were gonnatalk about is that like, let's
say you can get through thisdivorce, right? Let's say you
still need to communicate withthem in some capacity, you
know, is is there any healthycommunication with a narcissist
after this or not?

Speaker 2 (55:24):
Okay? Would it be fair to say, would you agree
with me if I said narcissistscan hold grudges longer than
anyone? Right? They're ,they've got the you're dead to
me gene . Right? They can cutpeople out. They , they hold on
forever. Okay? So with that inmind, they are never going to
treat you with any kind ofdignity or respect, right? You

(55:47):
have inflicted their worstnightmare injury that they've
worried about their whole life.
They've, they've always beenafraid of abandonment. And you
leaving them has created thisinjury that they only dreamt
could happen. That it was sohorrifying. And you must be
punished. You must, for therest of your life, be punished

(56:09):
for hurting them this way. Soeven if they deserved it, even
if they left you first, even ,it doesn't matter in their
mind, they've been abandoned.
So it will never be better.
They will never get past it. Soif you have children, you have
to continue to communicate. Youhave to use this gray rock

(56:29):
method where you give noemotion. You, when you , uh,
hopefully you can stay on aparenting app. If they won't,
then you only email not eventexting because it's, it can be
too intrusive. You only email ,you don't open that email. The
second you see it pop into yourinbox, you open the email when

(56:50):
you are prepared to open it,when you're in the right head
space , not when you'refrantically trying to do five
things at one time. And Right.
You control the situation. Soyou have tea , meditate, talk
to a coach, whatever, to get inthe right place. And then you
open the email with thepreparation of what it might

(57:15):
say. Now you respond to theemail with only the information
that's necessary. Not, I hopenot. I wish not I want, it's
just this, this, this, this isthe time , what time? This is
the time. What place? This isthe place not, well , you

(57:36):
shouldn't , you can find thatout for yourself. You shouldn't
just the place. Right? No more,no less.

Speaker 1 (57:43):
Yeah, no response or a direct response. Right?

Speaker 2 (57:48):
Just, just logistics.

Speaker 1 (57:50):
Yeah,

Speaker 2 (57:52):
Just like , just the facts. Just the facts not, well
, Susie really wanted to go andI wish you would . No ,

Speaker 1 (58:01):
Yeah, because you're really not in that relationship
anymore. Like, you really, youcan't have any control over
that, that person at thatpoint.

Speaker 2 (58:11):
And any information you give them will be used
against you. They will frontrun sabotage, undermine, try to
ruin your plan. If, if you, ifyou think Susie is going to be
hurt by something, then that'swhat he's gonna do because he
wants you to hurt. But hedoesn't care about Susie. He

(58:35):
Right . He might claim to careabout Susie. My children are
the most important thing in theworld to me. I would do ever ,
I own , I live for my children.
I only care about my children.
But oh, if I don't let her goto that birthday party on my
time, that's gonna upset hermother. 'cause she knows it's
gonna upset her. That's whatI'm think . Yeah , yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:55):
Oh my gosh, that is so true. So whenever you say,
oh yes, pick Susie up at seven,and she's really sad because
you missed that thing. Youbasically giving them
ammunition to use against you.
'cause you now, because you'retalking about it, it frustrated
you. You're mad because youhurt Susie. Right ? Right . And

(59:18):
you're telling your spouse ,your ex spouse at this point
that I'm mad because you hurtSusie and oh my, you're so
right.

Speaker 2 (59:24):
That's what wanted , that's what they wanted. Also,
you can't, you can't give themany , um, any changes. Like,
okay, so whatever your, yourplan is, whatever your
parenting plan is, it's no grayarea. You button that up so
tight, all like, well, if thisdoesn't happen, then this is

(59:46):
what will happen. Like, if youdon't do this, then this is,
you have everything built intothe plan. So there's no need
for any communication. Then youstick to the plan. Oh, but my
boyfriend's family is taking usto The Bahamas and they invited
the kids and it's on his time,and I want the kid , they're
not going, they're just notgoing, not this time. They'll

(01:00:08):
live. Like, don't ask for aswitch. Don't give a switch.
Nothing. Just, I'm sticking tothe plan. No, regretfully, that
won't work. I have , I'msticking to the plan. Let's
stick to the plan. I'm stickingto the plan. It's never worth
it. There's no free lunch.

Speaker 1 (01:00:27):
That is really good advice. And I think that , um,
I wanna talk a little bit abouthow people can contact you and
get more information, because Ithink, you know what, I think
going forward too , you know,how we structure this is gonna
be interesting because I thinkthat a lot of people have
questions about like, okay, mynarcissistic spouse did this.

(01:00:51):
Like, what does it really mean?
Because each time you thinklike a rational person,
, it's like completelydifferent. And so we might
wanna talk about some of thoselike ways that we rationally
are like, Hey, a person shouldshow up like this, but they're
a narcissist, so they show uplike that. You know? And like
how maybe we can , um, but ifpeople want to work directly

(01:01:14):
with you, because I will tellyou, like, I have been double
downing on understanding how tonegotiate with a narcissist
because it is so prevalent. Andso, and I will tell people that
if that is something thatyou're gonna have to deal with,
like you cannot be tooprepared. Like you cannot be

(01:01:38):
over prepared to deal with anarcissist because they're
crafty and they're still goingto come up with something else.
You know? So if we work , if Iwork with you, I'm really
working with like how to, youknow, 'cause the reality is the
only way to break free from anarcissist is to work on
yourself. And

Speaker 2 (01:01:58):
No , nobody wants to hear that. We think that
they're the ones who need tochange, but they won't. They
can't. Yeah . All we can do ischange how we react to them

Speaker 1 (01:02:07):
And, and how we operate. Because a lot of the
narcissism is brainwashing andgaslighting and telling you
things that aren't really true,but then you start to believe
them. So you don't know what istrue or not. And they use that
against you in divorce too.
Like, they'll make you questionyourself. Yep . So if they come

(01:02:31):
to any of your networks, whatare, how are you working with
people right now? Of course .
And what are some of your

Speaker 2 (01:02:36):
Resources? Course , of course. I have one-on-one
coaching, but I also have thisgroup program called Reclaim
Your Power. So I, this isreally the best hybrid model I
think that I've ever come upwith. Um, where you get the
best aspects of one-on-onecoaching, because I do coach
each person individually on thecall. But you get that sense of

(01:02:58):
camaraderie and that feeling ofcommunity, and there's so much
weight on that because it's,it's a very lonely experience.
And if someone hasn't beenthrough it, they can't
understand what this is like. Imean, all of my, well-meaning
friends, you know, when I wasgoing through a divorce or just
like, oh, well why don't youjust blah, blah, blah. Like, I

(01:03:18):
don't understand. Why is thatsuch a big problem? Why don't
you just say this? So myfavorite is , why don't you
just call the judge and tellhim what he did, ? It's
like , you know, why don't youjust call the judge. Okay. So
you're, you're, you have acommunity of people who are
either right, where you are,right behind you, right ahead
of you, you're learning fromeach other. All these instances
that come up, we're talkingabout. So you're sharing your

(01:03:41):
experience, it's helping otherpeople. There's no better
feeling when you have felt sovictimized than to think you
can help somebody else in thatspot, right? Mm-Hmm .
. So it's alovely, wonderful
non-judgmental group. Um, theyhave a private Facebook group
where they talk all day, everyday, anytime they need to, they

(01:04:03):
need some support or they havequestions or they need some
suggestions on how to handlesomething. Um, I edit things
for them. I edit emails fortheir, their co-parent or for
their lawyer or whatever in thegroup. Um, so it's a very, a
lot of support. There aremodules that they watch that ,

(01:04:24):
uh, are part of this, that anonline course module that they
watch. And so it's a rollinggroup. They come in , uh, for ,
it's a three month longprogram, but you don't have to
wait for the next one to start.
People are coming in all thetime. It's ever clean .

Speaker 1 (01:04:39):
Well, and not that narcissism always equates to
abuse, but those traits whenthey're prevalent, usually
equate to some level of abuse,even if you don't like that
word. Um, it is levels of anexperience that other people
understand. And it's, it's alsolike a hamster wheel that you

(01:05:04):
have to actively get off andstay off. Yeah . Right? Like,
and it constantly wants to pullyou back on that or Yeah .

Speaker 2 (01:05:12):
Like the cycle seven times. Right.

Speaker 1 (01:05:14):
Or you have to understand that if you are the
victim, that you could be alsoa target for a different
narcissist. So you have tochange how you, you

Speaker 2 (01:05:26):
Do, you do. And that's really important. So
that is another thing thatpeople are so worried about,
like, how am I gonna not beattracted to another
narcissist? It's likenarcissists are no longer going
to be attracted to you when youdo this work.

Speaker 1 (01:05:40):
Yes. Yeah. I love that. That is perfect. Well, we
appreciate you so much and youhave a lot of tiktoks going on,
and Instagram and information,and you know, all I would say
is that if you're divorcing anarcissist, you need to get
prepared, and part of it ispreparing yourself for it. So ,

(01:06:02):
um, so we appreciate yourinformation and we're gonna
have you come back and talkmore about it, but at least we,

Speaker 2 (01:06:08):
We covered a lot .
Melissa , I love being on yourpodcast . Well , thank you ,
Victoria . I .

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Coping with Narcissistic Behavior During the Divorce Mediation Process

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