Divorcing with Intention: A Professional’s Guide to Intentional Divorce

Hi, welcome to MediatorPodcast.com, a podcast and video series about mediation, negotiation and collaboration. My name is Melissa Gragg, and I'm a Valuation Expert and Divorce Financial Mediator in St. Louis, Missouri – specializing in divorce and partner disputes. 

Today we are speaking about “Divorcing with Intention: A Professional's Guide to Intentional Divorce” with Leah Hadley, a Certified Divorce Financial Analyst and Accredited Financial Counselor. Leah is based in Cleveland, Ohio and recently focused her practice  on “Intentional Divorce Solutions” where she guides her clients to financial independence through thoughtful and strategic planning.

1. Can you explain what an intentional divorce is and how it differs from traditional divorce proceedings?
2. What inspired you to specialize in facilitating intentional divorces?
3. What steps can individuals or couples take toward making empowered decisions during their divorce?
4. Can you share examples of how empowered decision-making positively impacts the divorce process?
5. What are some common challenges people face when choosing to divorce with intention, and how can they overcome these obstacles?
6. Can you share a memorable case where intentional divorce made a significant difference?

Melissa Gragg  
CVA, MAFF 
Expert testimony for financial and valuation issues  
Bridge Valuation Partners, LLC  
[e-mail]  
http://www.BridgeValuation.com  
http://www.ValuationPodcast.com  
http://www.MediatorPodcast.com  
https://www.valuationmediation.com  
Cell: [phone]

Leah Hadley 
www.intentionaldivorce.com
[e-mail]
440.545.1001
http://www.linkedin.com/in/leahahadley
https://www.instagram.com/intentionaldivorcesolutions
https://www.facebook.com/greatlakesdfs
https://www.youtube.com/@intentionaldivorceinsights

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, welcome to mediator podcast.com, a podcast
and video series aboutmediation, negotiation and
collaboration. My name isMelissa Greg , and I'm
evaluation expert and divorceFinancial mediator in St.
Louis, Missouri. Today we'respeaking about divorcing with
intention, a professional'sGuide to in Intentional Divorce
with Leah Hadley, a certifieddivorce financial analyst, and

(00:24):
accredited financial counselor.
Leah is based in Cleveland,Ohio, and recently focused her
practice on Intentional DivorceSolutions, where she guides her
clients to financialindependence through thoughtful
and strategic planning .
Welcome, Leah . How are you?

Speaker 2 (00:40):
I'm well, Melissa.
Thank you so much for having meback.

Speaker 1 (00:43):
Well, this is a great conversation because we
have, you know, a lot ofoptions in divorce and they
could be collaborative, theycould be mediation, they could
be litigation, but all of thosecould dial back to how you and
your current partner are gonnago through this process. So in

(01:08):
this divorcing with intention,I think that we might need just
a little bit of an explainer ofwhat does this actually mean,
or what do you feel that thismeans , um, of how you would do
an intentional divorce and howmaybe it differs from some of
these traditional things.
Because for the most part,people don't know what to

(01:29):
expect anyway. So how do youlayer this intentional divorce
concept into it?

Speaker 2 (01:35):
Well, and that's exactly it, Melissa. People
don't know what to expect, andso they're very much reacting
to things very often throughoutthe divorce process. And
intentional divorce is beingabout being proactive about
looking at the process, not asa game of chess, but more as
like a puzzle that we need tosolve together. Um, and really

(01:57):
understanding that throughoutthe process you have a lot of
choices, even from that verybeginning moment of how am I
gonna go about this process?
Right. You mentionedcollaborative divorce
mediation. There's traditionallitigation. You know, you have
to first make a decision, but alot of people don't even make
that decision. They justdefault to that traditional

(02:19):
route because they're notnecessarily educated or
informed about the variousoptions that are available to
them . And so, intentionaldivorce is really about
educating yourself andempowering yourself to look at
this process as how am I goingto solve the issues that need
to be solved in front of me sothat I can transition to the
best next chapter of my lifefor myself , um, and for my

(02:42):
family?

Speaker 1 (02:44):
Well, and some of it seems like taking, you know,
taking charge in some capacity.
Um, and I think that sometimesI'll also see people ask a lot
of questions to their friends,right . And be like, well, how
did you get this done? Or, howdid that happen to you? And
that's not always gonna be thebest way to go about it. You

(03:07):
also will start to cement yourmind and like, well, my friend
said that I should expect toget the house and that I'll
have the kids all the time andI'll have this when that might
not be the actual reality.
Right?

Speaker 2 (03:21):
Absolutely. And I think that is a big issue that
comes up when people are tryingto look at the process from a
proactive perspective, thatthey're listening to all these
other people that maybe, youknow, you're deciding that your
, your current spouse is theenemy , um, and that you're
creating this sort of combatzone and you're both kind of

(03:41):
building up your teams. Um, butit doesn't have to be that way.
And I think that's reallyimportant for people to know.
Uh , no two divorces are alike.
I mean, I work with so manydifferent people. I cannot
point to two divorces that areexactly the same. There are so
many differences. Um, even ifit's, you know, two people who
make relatively the same amountof income and have children the
same age, you know, stillthey're not gonna have the same

(04:03):
divorce.

Speaker 1 (04:04):
Mm-Hmm.
. Yeah. And Ithink that, you know, in some
context, even not having anopinion on how , you know, like
maybe even stepping back, buteven to get into, 'cause I , I
think we're gonna , you know,talk more about , about what
this really means, but youknow, what kind of got you in

(04:24):
this space, because this reallyis kind of a process that you
are championing and coining andtrying to get people to
understand. So what inspiredyou to start to look at
facilitating intentionaldivorces?

Speaker 2 (04:40):
Um, I've worked with so many people over the years
who have felt so incrediblydisempowered through the
divorce process, and it'sheartbreaking to witness. And a
lot of cases, these are peoplewho felt very in control of
their lives prior to theirdivorce. They may have careers
that they are very successfulin , you know, they may be very
involved in their children'slives in so many ways. Um, they

(05:02):
have a lot going for them.
Pre-divorce, and then goingthrough the divorce itself. The
experience of the processitself is can , can really beat
you down in a lot of cases. Um,and I know that it doesn't have
to be that way because I've hadthe opportunity to witness
other other ways of doing it,right? Mm-Hmm . .
And so that's where, when I,when I thought about how I

(05:23):
really wanna be able to helppeople, I want them to know
that they have options. I wantthem to know that they can make
choices today that are gonnaset them up for a better next
step instead of not evenconsidering what this means for
the future. And then settingthemselves up for a lot of
adversity going forward.

Speaker 1 (05:42):
Mm-Hmm , . Well, and I
think that in looking at someof intentional ways of getting
divorced or intentionally howyou're going to go about the
process, you know, we have tokeep in mind that the divorce
world was illegal . You know,like when you got married, you,

(06:02):
you have a legal contract toget married, right? But nobody
talked to you about thefinancial stuff, right ? And
nobody really told you that atthe end you're gonna have to
get through all the financialstuff, even if this is a legal
process. And I think reallyunderstanding that people in
the legal process do not , um,always understand the financial

(06:26):
ins and outs is a very bigpiece of the process. So you
and I and other professionalsare starting to take people out
of that process and say, Hey,if you guys need to know more
about the financials, then wereally need to do this a
different way. And it doesn'tnecessarily need to be in the

(06:47):
court. Right? That's right. Sothat's part of kind of
understanding that you don'thave go play those games that
everybody else has had to go,you know, jump through those
hoops. But then what does thatmean if, if, if I'm not going
the traditional route, which isI'm just gonna file and you're
gonna get that paperwork andwe're just gonna start fighting

(07:08):
and we're gonna move out and doall this stuff, you know, which
there's a time and place and aand a and certain relationships
that that is good for, right?
But like, if that's not whatit's good for, like, you don't
have to love, like still getalong, but you can, you can
have some, Hey, maybe we wannalook at what's best for the

(07:30):
whole family. So in thatcapacity, people are like,
well, I , I don't even know howto get started with any of
this. You know, so what stepsshould they take towards making
some of these empowereddecisions during their divorce?
And like, how do they find theright people to help them do
that?

Speaker 2 (07:48):
So first and foremost, I think it's really
important that you get in touchwith your state of mind. Um,
you know, I've had folks overthe years come and meet with me
to talk about financials, andthey're crying, and sometimes
they're, you know, almosthyperventilating and like,
they're so stressed andoverwhelmed. We can't talk
about financials. When you'rein that state, there's nothing

(08:08):
that you're gonna absorb thatI'm gonna share with you.
You're not gonna be able toanswer my questions. It's not
gonna be a productiveconversation. So really getting
in touch with that piece firstand making sure that you're in
the right head space to be ableto deal with some of these
things. And if you are not thentaking the steps to get there,
right? And that could meanpotentially seeing a therapist.

(08:30):
We offer virtual support groupsfor people. Uh, there's so many
wonderful divorce coaches outthere. There are a lot of
resources out there. Um, and ifyou feel like you can't even
get past the overwhelm of it,you're not gonna make
intentional decisions. You'rejust not. Um, and so that's the
first step is really getting intouch with where you are
initially , um, in that mentalstate and, and finding the

(08:52):
right support for you. Now, itis really, really important
that you're working with peopleexperienced in the divorce
space specifically, and that iseverybody from therapists to
coaches, to, you know,everybody on your team, of
course, attorneys and whatnot.
Um, but the divorce space is aunique space. You know,
people's entire lives arechanging through this process.

(09:13):
There are the legal aspectsthat we always have to keep in
mind. There are the financialaspects that are huge
transition. Of course, taxeshave a big , um, you know, a
consideration when we'relooking at things. So there's,
there are a lot of pieces thatare very specific and unique to
divorce. And so it's reallyimportant that you're engaging
with professionals who areexperienced in this process.

(09:35):
And to some extent, kind of tospeak to what you were talking
about before, Melissa, to shutout some of the noise. So
whether that is your friend whorecently got divorced, or there
are all these groups on socialmedia, I'm sure there're very
well-meaning. Um, but boy, Ihave seen some horrible
responses to things where I'mjust like, that's just not true
, you know? Um, butpeople are taking this as if

(09:58):
it's a fact in a comment in aFacebook group or something,
right? Um, and, and the otherthing I've seen, which has been
, uh, really frustrating as aprofessional is people putting
themselves out there as anexpert online. And then if you
look up their credentials,they're not credentialed at
all, right? Um , and so it'sreally important to surround
yourself with a team of peoplewho can help you in this way.

(10:19):
But the first step, again, isgetting that mental clarity. So
then , like, if you're workingwith a financial professional,
you can really look at thenumbers and talk through your
goals and that piece of it. Um,so that way you can make good
financial decisions. It's thesame thing with an attorney,
though. An intentional divorcedoesn't mean that you're not
getting legal counsel. It'simportant to understand the
laws in your area. That'simportant to know that, and to

(10:41):
educate yourself on that. Weoperate in that context, right?
Um, and so understanding thatis really important. But not
every attorney is focused onthat intentionality, right?
There are a lot of attorneyswho wanna stir the pot. Um,
there are a lot of attorneyswho like to go to court. Um,
you know, you want to findsomebody who's willing to

(11:02):
educate you, give you options,listen to you. Um, but then on
the the flip side of that, theattorneys have to give their
advice and their guidance basedon the law, right? That's,
that's what they're doing. Um,and sometimes that might not be
in alignment with what you'refeeling would be the right
intention for you , being ableto communicate that to them and

(11:26):
let them know, I understand thelaw, I hear what you're saying,
but we want to work throughthis piece of it outside of the
court system. And I'm notnecessarily gonna go along with
your guidance in this case.
Now, there are some attorneysthat are receptive to that.
They understand this is yourlife. There are some attorneys
that are not so receptive tothat Mm-Hmm . .

(11:47):
And so finding those folks onyour team who can really help
you navigate this process, butwith you as sort of like, you
know, if you think of thehero's journey, right? Like
it's your journey. This isgonna impact your life at the
end of the day. And so youresponding to, you know, my
financial guidance or Melissa'sfinancial guidance or, you
know, the attorney's guidance,it's not impacting our lives

(12:10):
forever, right? Mm-Hmm.
. Um, and so Ithink it's just so critical
that you put yourself in thatdriver's seat.

Speaker 1 (12:16):
Now, I think it's interesting, the mindset. So
you started with mindset, andit's interesting to me because
it , like, I had an epiphanywhile you were talking, like in
going through divorce, youbecome a different person, like
the process of divorce, likeyou're not the same person that
you started out with when youend. And, and sometimes you
switch professionals duringthat process. And I never kind

(12:40):
of connected that. But I thinkthat the mindset is very
important because if you don'tstart to focus on what is in
your own best interest first,and then your family, children,
or other things, I think we getinto the space of like , um, I
want that because I don't wantyou to have it. Right? Or I, I

(13:04):
want that because they don'twant, you know, like you're,
you're sometimes in arelationship making decisions
based on that other personstill, you know, even if it's
traumatically connected , um,you're still making those same
decisions where you really haveto center on like, what do I

(13:26):
like a , a house, right? Well,I wanna stay in the house. Why?
Well, because I don't want themto have somebody in my bedroom,
you know, in the future. AndI'm like, yeah, but do , do you
wanna Maybe, is it tooexpensive for you? Is it too
this? Like, we have to, I thinkin some ways to get to that
intentional decision making ,you have to almost start to

(13:47):
become your own person . Andlike, what do I want? Which
sometimes that conversationpeople have never had. Like
I've thought in a couple, I'vethought as a family, I've never
put myself first, right? Andnow you're coming to this and
people are saying, well, whatdo you want? You're like, I
don't know. And I'm wantingthings to maybe keep them from

(14:11):
the other. Like, do you wantthat motorcycle? Well, I don't
want them to have it. Well, canyou ride a motorcycle? No. Do
you just want it so that theydon't have , you know? So I
think that is part of it too.

Speaker 2 (14:25):
Absolutely. And I think one of the biggest pieces
of that intentionality is tonot necessarily rush through
the process. And a lot of timesonce you make that decision
that you're moving forward withthe divorce, you want it to be
over yesterday. Nobody likes tobe in this sort of middle space
of like not quite knowing whattheir life is going to look
like. Um, and so a lot of timespeople are in a rush to get

(14:46):
through the process. But I hada client who I've been working
with , um, she's going througha very difficult divorce,
unfortunately. Um, but she saidto me, 'cause she a whole
history through the marriage ofissues. And I said , um, you
know, why did you decide todivorce now? Um, you know, when
you've been experiencing thisfor all these years. And she
says to me, you know what? Mykids are grown the business is

(15:09):
doing okay. I know I'll be ableto support myself financially.
We're in a good place. This isthe right time. And I thought,
I love that because so manytimes they're reacting to like
an affair or something thathappened. And it's like, I'm
not giving myself the time andspace to create the environment
that's going to allow me totransition easily, right?

(15:31):
Mm-Hmm . . Soespecially happens with people
who have a significant amountof debt. If you have a
significant amount of debtbetween the two people when you
get divorced and you'reresponsible for half of it on
less income, it can be just anabsolute nightmare for people,
right? Mm-Hmm . .
And so getting to the point of,okay, we know maybe that we're
moving forward with thetermination of marriage, but
how can we financially improveour situation so that we're

(15:54):
both better off when we decideto split? Right? And so really
thinking about things in alldifferent ways in terms of
being intentional and how thosedecisions are impacting you
today and in the future .

Speaker 1 (16:07):
Future . Well, and I think that, you know, another
thing that you said is at thebeginning, people are asking
their friends because they wantto know what to expect, right?
There is so much unknown in thedivorce world because so many
people can go into differentways of getting divorced and
have totally differentoutcomes. I think that, you

(16:28):
know, they're asking thesequestions, not realizing that
that could have been a one-offsituation. And I think that
people need to realize thatwhen you go to get divorced,
there are financial issues andthere are legal issues. And
most of the time the lawyerswant to cover all of that. And
the reality is what we'reseeing now, it's sort of like

(16:49):
in the olden days, we let thelawyers do everything. And now
we're really realizing, andeven the attorneys are
realizing like the financialpro professionals really know
what to do. They can govern theprocess, they can work people
through it. But then you get tothe point of saying, well, but
the court does it like this,right ? And we're not
necessarily going into thecourt. So it creates like,

(17:11):
creative ways that you might beable to problem solve when
yeah, you have this debt, likeyou wanna talk about debt. What
if you both signed on an SBAloan? Mm-Hmm . .
Neither one of you are comingoff of that , you know,
like not anytime soon, right?
So you might have to, and thecourt sits there and it's like,

(17:32):
I don't, I don't know what todo with this guys. .
You know? So you are gonna havefinancial situations that the
court or other professionalsdidn't know how to deal with,
right? That's right. So I thinkthat that's another one, but
maybe we have some examples ofhow you can make these decision
making , um, you know, thisempowered decision making

(17:55):
positive positively impactsyour divorce process. Little
tongue tied there, , butbecause I, I think that we hear
the stories about how thingswent wrong, right? Mm-Hmm.
, we very ra veryrarely is somebody coming in ,
listen, I had this great calm,peaceful communication with my

(18:15):
spouse. Like, they're notsinging that from the rafters,
you know, so how, how are weactually seeing this take
place?

Speaker 2 (18:24):
So in my own practice, I see it most
commonly when I do work as afinancial neutral. Um, and it's
not as a financial neutral inthe traditional sense of like a
collaborative divorce, butwhere people, two people are
working with me through thefinances, typically those
people don't necessarily eitherhave children at home or
they're not really conflictedaround parenting issues.

(18:46):
They're really trying tounderstand the financials. And
what is fantastic about workingwith somebody specifically on
the financial piece that hasthat knowledge and expertise is
that you can really walkthrough and understand the pros
and cons of each differentscenario, what that's gonna
mean for you today, but also inthe future. Because so often, I

(19:07):
don't know about you Melissa,but when I see attorneys
passing back and forthspreadsheets with like one
value on it, and there's nocost basis for anything. And
sometimes I don't even knowwhat kind of account it is or
who actually is titled on theaccount , and I'm like, how
does this get negotiated likethis? Right? Like, you just,
there's not enough information,but they're looking at one
static moment in time, whereasa financial professional is

(19:29):
looking at it morecomprehensively. We're really
looking at it, okay? Not justtoday at this moment, at this
balance , um, but what does,you know, taking this asset on,
I have a client who , um, shecame to me at the very end of
her divorce, so I wasn'tinvolved with the negotiations
or anything. Um, but she has abig payout on the house to her
spouse. And , um, we're talkingthrough kind of her goals and

(19:52):
her future and she is wanting anew kitchen and she's wanting ,
um, I forget some, some bigrenovations to the house. And
she's got this big payout tothe spouse and we start talking
about like, do you absolutelylove this house? Like, is this
just, I mean, if you absolutelylove this house, sure, you
know, invest all this money inthis house, you know, pay him
out. You get to stay whereyou're at, fantastic. But if

(20:14):
you don't absolutely love thishouse, could you potentially
sell it? Give him his money, gointo something that's already
done, and not make this hugeinvestment in a neighborhood
that might not really get youthat return ever, right?
Mm-Hmm. . Um, butlike, that wasn't even
something that was on thetable, wasn't even something
that was considered when theywere negotiating things . It

(20:36):
was just either somebody wasgonna keep the house or, you
know, and somebody was gonnaget paid out on the house or
whatever. So , um, those areexamples though where, you
know, specifically as peopleare walking through this
process, they can really startto understand that they have
options and they're not alwaysthe most obvious options. Um,
you know, I have a client whowas really struggling with

(20:58):
income , um, and did decide tokeep the house, but then , uh,
uh, built like a , a separationso they were able to rent out
part of the house and staythere, right? So that way we
could bump up the income highenough so that way she's able
to stay where she wants tostay. Um, and in her particular
case, it was, you know, for herchild to get through high

(21:18):
school. But these are theexamples of, of really
understanding that there is,there are so many ways, so many
ways that you can solve thesepuzzles and there's just not a
one size fits all solution. Um,and so that's what the
empowered decision making isabout. It's about really
understanding what's importantto you and looking at the whole

(21:40):
situation and saying, well, howcan we make this happen? But
what I like about working withboth parties is I get to have
that conversation with both ofthem . What are you really
worried about? What is next foryou? How do we fit that into
the plan and ask the otherspouses the exact same thing.
And then you're , it's so mucheasier to get to a resolution

(22:00):
when everybody's goals andconcerns are being take , uh,
taken into consideration.
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (22:05):
.
Well, and I, I think that, youknow, there's, I think, again,
let's talk about the oldendays. The olden days would be
like, we're gonna get divorcedand I'm gonna take you for
everything I can, and you'regonna think the same thing . So
that's why we get the bestlawyer. That's why we get , uh,
you know, valuation experts.

(22:26):
That's why we get financialneutral, the all these experts,
right? And then we fight themto, and , and one goes high and
one goes low, and we fight,fight, fight , fight , fight.
The reality is that there'sgonna be a winner and a loser,
right? Somebody hired thebetter attorney, they came up
with a more creative way toscrew over the other party and

(22:47):
you're not gonna be any wiserabout it. Right? So this is
really, and and I like thisbecause we do a lot of this
work as well. If you work withone financial person, you can
ask the questions. You guyscould do it in together, you
could do it in separate. Eachprofessional has like a
process, right? I encouragepeople to work with people who

(23:08):
have a process because , um,then it might be they've
actually done it for a while,but then you might be able to
ask those questions in front ofeverybody. Because what I feel
like is that we hold these bigthings like, I'm gonna get you
with this. And they hold it formonths , right? And then at the

(23:29):
right time they're like, see, Igot you. And then everybody's
like, that's not a Got you .
You don't have anything likeyou thought you did, you talked
to your friend who used thesame tactic in their divorce.
But we don't have a gotchamoment right now. And I think
that if you start to have moreintentional divorcing, right? E

(23:50):
even conceptually, if yourspouse doesn't parlay into it,
at least you are mm-Hmm.
that that isgoing to then create that those
things would be exposed, right?
Right. And maybe they're ,maybe it's not about getting
over on the other party, butunderstanding what legitimately

(24:10):
is a benefit to you andlegitimately is not a benefit
to you. Right. You know, 'causesome things, just like you
said, you know, we have acurrent , um, situation where
the properties are very , uh,there , there's gonna be a huge
tax burden if we sell any ofthe properties, right? They've
been over depreciatedbasically. Well, everybody's

(24:31):
looking at them at fair marketvalue, at the top value, and
that's not the right way tomaybe look at it, but that's
how the court wants to look atit, right? And then the court
will take the other things intoconsideration. So it's sort of
like, instead of trying tofigure out what the court
allows us to do, try to figureout what you want to do, right?

(24:53):
Yeah. Um, but what are some ofthe issues? Like what are some
of the problems? Because thisseems very kumbaya, this seems
like, hey, you know, like wesit down and, and, and Leah
fixes it, right? But what aresome of the challenges that
people face if they choose todivorce with intention, and how

(25:13):
can they overcome some ofthese?

Speaker 2 (25:16):
So this is not an amicable divorce, and I'm not
actually in love with the termamicable divorce because I
think it sets us up for failurein a lot of cases. Because in a
lot of cases people are not ina situation. They want to have
a positive experience. Theywant to , um, feel good about
how they interacted through theprocess. Um, but for a variety

(25:37):
of reasons , um, amicable isn'ta goal that's gonna work for
them . Right. And that'sspecifically why we we choose
to use the word intentional. Ithink that's really important.
Um, it is amazing if bothpeople can choose to be
intentional Mm-Hmm . Bestoutcome. Absolutely. But even
if your spouse is not willingto act with intentionality, you

(26:00):
can still make that choice, butyou have to make it over and
over again. Mm-Hmm .
. And what I meanby that is there is a lot that
can come up through the divorceprocess. And if I know that I
am, you know, approaching mydivorce with the intention that
I'm gonna feel good about how Iacted through the process,
that's important to me. I wannabe able to look myself in the
mirror in the morning, and Iwanna feel good every time I

(26:21):
get up knowing that I actedwith integrity and that I feel
good about how I acted. Right.
Well then your, your spousedoes something. Or goodness
gracious, I get copied on somany emails between attorneys
that are so nasty to eachother. You get copied on one of
these things and all of asudden you spiral. Right? Yeah
. Like it's a trigger and like, forget about it . Yeah .
Intentionality goes out thewindow, right ? So it's about

(26:43):
making that decision over andover and saying, okay, I'm
reading this, it's upsettingme, but I'm gonna give my ti
myself the time and space toprocess and not have that
immediate reaction. Um, and I,I recognize that's difficult.
Do not get me wrong. I see someof the nastiest stuff that I
get copied on come through. Um,and so it really is a decision

(27:04):
that you have to continue tomake. Um, but the other thing
about it is you have to havethe right professionals in
place. Mm-Hmm. ,because not all professionals
support the empowered decisionmaking . And that's a critical
component of being able to gothrough this process with
intentionality.

Speaker 1 (27:23):
Yeah. And, and I think that it's almost, you
know, like everybody's gonna belike, well, of course you guys
think that the professionalsare important. Um, but, but
really this is a different wayof divorcing, you know, what,
what I endeavor to do and whatI believe you are endeavoring
to do is not a peaceful way ofdivorce, not an amicable
divorce. It is an informeddivorce. That's right . Right .

(27:46):
You, you, you understand whatyou are giving up, what you are
asking for, what you are goingto, what the obligation for
that is. And in some capacity,I think that what we've
experienced is that if you havethat conversation where maybe
both people can hear, you know,if you're asking me very

(28:10):
specific things about a certainthing of divorce, you know,
business valuations orsomething that I know , I want
both people to hear it at thesame time. Absolutely. 'cause
sometimes it just is what itis. Like, I'm sorry you love
blue and it is blue. I didn'tmake it blue for you. Right.
Like, it just is. So I thinkthat there's something to be

(28:32):
said and for you guys to notplay the telephone game. Right?
Right . Because then you'relike, well, I talked to
somebody and they said this.
No, I talked to somebody andthey said this instead, you're
like, you know, asking Leahquestions and then Leah
responds and then one persondoesn't like it, they can ask
additional questions, you know,and you, and you start to have

(28:54):
a conversation about stuffinstead of an argument maybe.
Right?

Speaker 2 (28:59):
Absolutely. It's so powerful to have people hearing
the same message. Yeah. Thisgame of telephone, in some
cases, it's not even, it'sliterally that the message was
miscommunicated. Like that is ahundred percent of the problem
. It doesn't have, it'snot any deeper than that. Um,
and so sometimes, you know,just literally hearing the same

(29:19):
information, being able toanswer the questions all at the
same time , um, it's, it reallyis a very powerful experience.

Speaker 1 (29:26):
Yeah. Because I don't know that last time that
you've probably had adiscussion about cost basis to
a client and they understood itenough to be able to
communicate the concept toanybody else. And so we're not
saying it's, it's almost likesome of the legal issues are
easier to understand at thispoint than some of the
financial, and if you continuein court, nobody's really going

(29:51):
to , you know , like we'regonna continue to have to
educate everybody in court asopposed to just educating the
couple in some capacity. Don'tyou agree?

Speaker 2 (29:59):
A hundred percent

Speaker 1 (30:00):
And they're gonna pay for us to educate everybody
else, including the couple .

Speaker 2 (30:05):
That's right.
Unfortunately.

Speaker 1 (30:06):
Well,

Speaker 2 (30:07):
And I'll say at least I think that's actually
the best outcome. So many timesnobody gets educated and then,
you know, people will reach outto us. In some cases it's years
after the fact, and I'm lookingat their agreement trying to
figure things out, and thereare like gaping holes in their
agreement where, and this comesup with pensions all the time,
things just were neverdiscussed. They were never

(30:27):
agreed upon. Mm-Hmm .
, they justweren't even addressed. Mm-Hmm.
. Mm-Hmm.
.

Speaker 1 (30:31):
Well, and I think that, you know, if you have a ,
a memorable case or somethingthat you can give us an example
where intentional divorce madea significant difference. I
think it's helpful becauseagain, people don't know what
divorce looks like. That'sright . And so we're saying,
oh, this is different, or, oh,you should, you know, have a

(30:53):
more informed process , butlike, what does that really
look like if we put it intoplay?

Speaker 2 (31:00):
So I'll be honest, part of it is being vulnerable.
And I think that's part of whatmakes it so difficult is
getting past that vulnerabilityand acknowledging, you know,
for the work that I do, youknow, I'm, I'm knee deep in the
finances all the time. For alot of people, they have to
acknowledge that they don'tfully understand their
financial situation. And forsome people, that's somebody
who's been taking care of thefinances. This is not always

(31:22):
the spouse who wasn't involvedin the finances. Mm-Hmm .
sometimes this isthe one who really took the
leadership role in the financesin the couple. And they're,
they're owning the fact thatlike, there's a lot that they
don't know. Um, and that canfeel really hard. Um, and, and,
you know, bringing a person ,uh, you know, outside of the
family into the situation,opening up about these things,

(31:45):
doing it in front of yourspouse, like this can be,
there's, there's a lot ofdifferent levels of complexity
to this. Um, but I see it allthe time where people are
making these decisions. And Ithink that is what I want more
people to know, is that thereare people every day getting
divorced in an informed andempowered way, and you don't
hear about them because it'snot these big dramatic

(32:09):
experiences in their livesbecause of the way that they've
handled it. You know? And notnecessarily like sweeping it
under the rug, but more so thatthey have taken the steps to
really understand what are theoptions, how can we move
through this as seamlessly aspossible? And I see it a lot
with the , you know, there'sthis huge wave of grade
divorce, and I see a lot ofthese folks who, you know,

(32:31):
especially because the gradedivorce cases are really
financial cases , um, and, youknow, for the most part, they
wanna make sure that they'reable to retire or stay retired
, um, and that they're able toleave the legacy that they
wanna leave. That's reallyimportant to them . Um, and so
I've had a few of thesecouples, and I'm thinking of
one in particular where wereally sat down and talked
about what do you want for youradult children? What matters to

(32:54):
you? What's, what do you value,what's most important to you
through this process? And theywanted to make sure that they
got to have all the experienceswith the grandchildren. You
know, some of the cases aredealing with younger kids and
the parenting, but as peopleage, it's, it's a different ,
um, different issues that arecoming up. These are not things
that the court is involvedwith, right. But these are real

(33:15):
family issues that need to bediscussed if you wanna have the
kind of relationship where youcan both be present in your
grandchildren's lives. Right.
And so , um, this particularcouple really spent time
talking through what was mostimportant to them as far as the
kinds of relationships they hadwith their adult children and
with their grandchildren, howthey wanted to be able to

(33:37):
experience holidays and specialcelebrations. Um, and then from
a financial standpoint, bothwere able to walk away with a
complete retirement plan. Theywere both already retired, but
that complete retirement planto know that they felt
confident they weren't gonnarun outta money and they could
leave the kind of legacy thatthey felt proud of. But working

(33:57):
through all of the details ofthat, a lot of that doesn't
fall neatly within divorcelaws. It just, that's, that's
not space for it. Um, but itmakes a huge difference in a
family.

Speaker 1 (34:10):
Well, and I think that again, in the past we've
tried to retrofit, you know,how to do these financial
things in court. And thereality is, when we made up
marriage, we should have hadsome rubrics of, of how we were
combining our finances. Butthat's not how marriage
started, you know? And so whenwe're coming to unwind it, I

(34:34):
think that your point about,you know, being even
vulnerable, but even beinghonest, you know, like , um,
like for example, like Ireceived $20,000 in inheritance
last year and we just put itinto our joint account. Like, I
think I should get credit forthat. Now, the court might be
like, good luck with that, butthe other spouse might be like,

(34:57):
well, I, I feel like I alsoreceived, you know, $10,000
from my grandma and , and wedid something like that. Could
I get credit for that? Youknow, I think that you get to a
situation where you can look atboth people and be like, does
it make sense that we wouldgive each of you credit for
that? Because that, that seemsreasonable. Now the court might

(35:19):
totally throw some wrenches inthat, but if it's good for your
family, oops. If it's good foryour, the couple, I think it's
really about do you want thisdivorce to be your experience
or do you wanna go put onsomebody , somebody else's
experience and just go throughthe motions? And I think that

(35:41):
is kind of the distinguishingfactor that you have to figure
out. Like, and it's not, oh, Ihave some complications that
are a heart. Everybody who evenhas a simple divorce has
complications. And you needlike a financial person to just
ask a simple, like, sometimesit's just a simple question
like, is this pre-tax orpost-tax? Does it matter? And

(36:04):
we could answer it easily,whereas you might Google and
get five different answers andnot know how to figure it out.
Right?

Speaker 2 (36:12):
Absolutely. Yeah. I had a woman here in Ohio who ,
uh, scheduled an appointmentwith me. It's coming up. And
she copied all this informationfrom stuff she had found online
because she was so confusedabout the conflicting messages.
Well, based on the language andwhat she copied, some of what
she was reading was incommunity property states and
some of what she was readingwas Ohio based and like, yeah .

(36:34):
So yeah , there are conflictingmessages because the laws
differ from state to state. Andso it , it can be very
confusing a lot of this stuff.
And that's why it's reallyimportant to have somebody
who's knowledgeable, who canjust give you the confidence to
know you're making thedecisions and you're
understanding them .

Speaker 1 (36:51):
Well, and I, and I think as we give some
information about, you know,and you're gonna tell us a
little bit more about howpeople can contact you and get
in , uh, in , into thisprocess. Right. I think that
one additional thing, and I, Ithink I already forgot what the
heck it was at this point, but,oh, I , I think that you have

(37:11):
to remember that divorce in thecourt system was created so
that attorneys could kind of bethe gatekeepers of this process
and that it was a legal kind ofissue that you're unwinding the
financial complications. Idon't think anybody totally
planned for Mm-Hmm .
. And so I thinkwhen you're dealing with some

(37:33):
of those financialcomplications, there could
still be things that go intothe court, but an attorney
telling you financialinformation is probably not the
best route. Um, but also thatyou can be advocating for
yourself and get some of theseresources even if your spouse

(37:54):
is not willing to go forth.
Right. So how , tell us moreabout, you know, this new
website and what they can findor how they would get started.
Or do they need to have buy-infrom their spouse in order to
get started?

Speaker 2 (38:10):
Yeah, great question. You don't need buy-in
from your spouse. This reallyis a personal decision about
how you want to approach thedivorce process. Okay.

Speaker 1 (38:19):
Um, but

Speaker 2 (38:20):
As far as the website goes, we have an
extensive, extensive blogeducating people on their , um,
choices that they could makethrough the process. And I'm
very excited. We are launchinga new podcast, intentional
Divorce Insights. We haveMelissa coming on as a guest to
talk about intentional businessvaluation. Um, but it's really

(38:42):
about looking at every aspectof the divorce process, every
expert that you need to engagebased on your unique situation
and understanding how do Iapproach this with
intentionality? Um, and so if,if both , uh, you and your
spouse are willing to have aconversation , um, you know,
it's always my preference totry to talk with both parties

(39:02):
initially , um, to see if wecan keep everybody on the same
page. Um, but like I said, if,if you can't get your spouse on
board or you don't know how toget your spouse on board , you
know , always reach out to meand we can have an initial
conversation.

Speaker 1 (39:15):
And I think that, you know, one of the other
things is that if you're , ifyou think that your spouse is
the more financially smartperson, right? And that
understands it more than you ,um, usually neither one of you
know as much about divorce asyou should. But even if you
think that that's the casewhen, when we've gotten

(39:36):
involved in situations, youknow, sort of at the beginning
if there's really thisdiscrepancy of understanding of
financials, we'll have theconversation of like, Hey, I
know we're doing a lot of thesemeetings together, but it would
probably benefit one of you tohave an like, after each
meeting to have an additionalhour conversation to make sure

(39:59):
you understand. Do you bothfeel comfortable with that
private conversation to reallyjust, you know, maybe dial it
down a little bit, not bore one, you know, because what we'll
normally see is the morefinancially savvy person is
like, I don't wanna sit hereand talk about this. Right. In
most cases, it's all relevantinformation for both. But there

(40:20):
are times where we educate oneparty, and if you get that
trust and you get thatconfidence that, you know, like
they have to understand it'snot our money, right ? It's not
our circus, it's not ourmonkeys, it's not our problem.
Like we're really just givingyou like what we know is sound
financial advice, regardless ofwhere it falls on your pile or

(40:44):
their pile, if , if it seemsfavorable. Right?

Speaker 2 (40:49):
Yeah. And actually to speak to that, Melissa, I
have noticed in my practice,and I was looking back over
like who our clients have beenand who has really chosen to
approach the divorce withintentionality. And you'll find
this interesting, the two mostcommon professions that reach
out and want to really focuswith intentionality
accountants, this is not theirarea of expertise and

(41:12):
attorneys. Yeah . So those arethe folks who, you know, see
the other side of things andrecognize that there are ,
there's another way to do it.
And I think attorneys more thananybody know that they wanna
keep the process out of thecourt.

Speaker 1 (41:25):
Absolutely. And again, if it's phases and it's,
and it's steps, you know, youmight have different needs at
the beginning then you do atthe end, but getting some , a
consistent financial personthroughout that, that's
checking things, that's saying,okay, well we talked about
this, but I'm seeing it lookdifferent over here, you know,
is always a good sanity checkfor the legal piece of it. You

(41:48):
know, you still might needlawyers to file things and go
through that process, but it'sreally the educational piece.
Right. You know, and if peoplewanna push you through very
quickly, that might be the timewhere you're not getting all of
your questions answered andyou're just like, well, they
told me to pick something so Ijust picked it. Right. But it,
it really is a little bit. Um,I mean, and if it can go

(42:13):
quickly because you got your an, your questions answered,
great, but for the most part itis a process. So , um, they can
reach out to some of these waysand we will be talking about
valuations on the podcast, butum, if people have more
questions, they can reach outto you. Can they , um, usually
sign up for like a consultationwith your firm or with people,

(42:37):
your staff? Yeah , we do amonthly information session
where you can kind of learnabout all of our services.
That's a great way to just dipyour toe in the water and kind
of get to know us and seewhat's going on. Um, or if
you're ready to really talkthrough the specifics of your
situation , um, you canschedule a free consultation.
Oh, I love it. Okay. That'sawesome. So the monthly thing,
that's a good idea. I mighthave to deal that one anyway .

(43:00):
Go for it . Okay. Well this isan amazing , um, concept and I
think that a lot of people aremoving towards this, whether,
whatever you wanna call it ,um, you know, getting educated
about your divorce is , isshould be your priority. So ,
um, reach out to somebody, butwe do think that we are doing
things , uh, a little bit aheadof the game. So, you know , um,

(43:25):
the other thing is that if, ifsomething like this makes
sense, usually I encouragepeople to reach out. Even if
you're, you know, like I knowthat if I'm not the right
person, I have no problemsaying that and directing you
to the right person. Um, andthat is a way, you know, you
can do a lot of Googlingonline, but if you find
somebody reach out to them,maybe they're not the right

(43:46):
person, or maybe you know thatthey're not the right person,
but you , they could be heavilyconnected or give you some
insight , um, to where to go.
So Absolutely , uh, weappreciate Julia , and I'm sure
you'll be on again, who knowswhat we'll talk about. But ,
um, we appreciate you today andhopefully people will reach out
and go on a different path todivorce. That would be great.

(44:10):
Thank you, Melissa. Thank you.