Breaking the Chains of Black Men's Mental Health

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:35):
Thank you, good day everyone and thank you so much
for joining.
Speaking with Sandra L, as Ialways say, I certainly,
certainly, certainly look out,and everyone that knows me knows
that I look out for thepatient's experience.
I want to make sure, and ourfoundation works to ensure that
the patient's experience is good.

(00:57):
I don't even want to say good,I want to say great, because I
always shoot for ensuring thatpatients have access to optimal
healthcare.
And what does optimalhealthcare mean for Sandra L?
Well, it means the patient andthe provider work together to
ensure that the patient isgetting the best healthcare ever

(01:18):
.
Talking to people over thisweekend when I was out and I was
like you know what I wantpeople to have?
I want patients, not to saypeople.
People are patients andpatients are people.
But I say I want our patientsto understand that there's more
to it than just going down thestreet to see Dr Jones.

(01:38):
You need to see Dr Jones andyou need to ensure that you have
a good communication role withDr Jones.
And if you don't, then you needto ensure that you have a good
communication role with Dr Jonesand if you don't, then you need
to actually consider talking tosomeone else, maybe giving a
referral or even if not areferral, you know, looking
online.
But I tell people this all thetime please be careful about

(02:01):
using Dr Google and Mr Firefoxto find yourself a good doctor.
Please be aware to followinstructions or information that
they're putting out on DrGoogle and Mr Firefox, because a
lot of times, if you don'tunderstand that information, it
will lead you down a rabbit'shole and we don't need any

(02:22):
patients, especially those thatare underserved, under-resourced
and marginalized.
We don't need them going downthe rabbit hole because it
causes more pain for them andtheir loved ones, and sometimes
even the doctor.
So what does it take to haveoptimal healthcare?
Well, in my opinion, what ittakes is it takes a working

(02:43):
relationship of all the roleplayers.
So patients, the communicate,you know their inner and outer
networks, support network, andthe doctors coming together and
saying, okay, what can we do?
How can we help each other toensure that that optimal
healthcare that Sandra L istrying to get is reached?

(03:05):
So today, with that in mind, Ihave an awesome, awesome,
awesome PhD student.
Before I even came on, I waslike I thought you was going to
be done.
He was like no, I still gotsome time to go, but we want to
continue to push him, continueto push him, continue to
encourage him, continue to lifthim up so that that goal is

(03:29):
reached.
Because we need African-Americanmale, we need female too.
But during the men's month,men's health month, we
definitely need to hear from ourmen, our men psychologists, our
men psychiatric.
We need to hear from our men,our men psychologists, our men
psychiatrists.
We need to hear from thembecause they got a story that
only they can share with us, andthat story comes from both them

(03:52):
being a Black man in Americaand also for them, studying what
it is as far as mental healthfor Black men in America.
So, without further ado, I'mgoing to go ahead and introduce
you and I'm going to let himintroduce himself to Mr Zachary
Simon, aka Zach Zach.

(04:13):
Please let us know all aboutyou.

Speaker 2 (04:17):
I got to say thank you for that introduction and
just highlighting the importanceof more Black men in mental
health.
We need more Black male mentalhealth providers and
professionals, so I appreciatethe shout out.
Just to introduce myself myname is Zach Simon.
I'm a doctoral student inclinical psychology.

(04:38):
I focus on doing therapy withBlack men in particular and
Black folks.
I use an African-centered lens,and so in my process of growing
as a doctoral student, I'vebeen learning how to paradigm
shift away from Western,eurocentric standards in

(05:01):
understanding mental health andviewing our people from an
African-centered lens, soviewing our people from a lens
of their African ancestry, theirAfrican ways of being and their
essence of being human.
And so it's been wonderfulbeing a graduate student
learning how to incorporateAfrican-centered practices in

(05:22):
therapy under the supervision ofmy supervisor, and it's been an
awesome journey.

Speaker 1 (05:32):
And I thank you for that.
So now let's go ahead and askyou some questions so you can
enlighten all of us that areeither watching this live or
going to catch it on a podcast.
Let's go ahead and ask you somequestions.
And you know, guys, you're infor a double treat, because I
sent some questions for him tolook at and before we came on,
he was like hey, sandra, is itokay if I ask you questions?

(05:55):
And I said it's great if youask me questions, so you get the
chance to actually not that youdon't hear me, because many
people that know me know, yes,sandra's going to speak up, but
you get a chance to actuallyhear some real dialect going on
between me and Zach, because, asI ask him questions, he's going
to ask me some, and so we'llhave a beautiful dialogue today

(06:18):
going on.
So, zach, my first question toyou what would you say are three
primary factors that contributeto the stigma surrounding men's
mental health, and how can theyeffectively be addressed?

Speaker 2 (06:34):
Yeah, I appreciate you just focusing on just three,
because there are many, but Iwould say the first one is, you
know, lack of consistent supportin a social network.
I think many men, includingmyself, continue to live in the
world without adequately havingsocial support and people who

(06:57):
got our back right.
I think many men, includingmyself, oftentimes feel the need
to go solo, to do things on ourown, and that really degrades
our mental health, right, itencourages many men to feel
lonely, to feel like they don'thave support and things can get

(07:18):
overwhelming.
And so many men, because theyfeel lonely, take on high
amounts of stress, high amountsof anxiety and oftentimes have
depressive symptoms.
Right, and this really impactsblack male mental health in
terms of going after your dreams, your goals and just living a

(07:39):
healthy life.
I think the second thing I wouldsay is access to quality care.
I think many men, includingmyself, oftentimes find that we
don't need care, that we don'tneed to go to the doctor, the
hospital, seeing a therapist,and oftentimes feel that we can

(08:01):
handle it on our own.
And I think sometimes, when wedo this, we have a tendency to
neglect certain parts of ourhealth and well-being.
I think, for me at least youknow, I've neglected my body, my
physical health, taking on moreand more responsibilities and

(08:22):
having it way on my heart, wayon my body.
In particular, when I take on alot of stress, I get back pain,
not only when I'm carrying mybackpack and everything but as
I'm taking on responsibilitiesat work, I notice my pain in my
back continues to subside,continues to grow depending on

(08:46):
whether I'm seeking health careor not, and what I've noticed as
I work with many Black men is,we take on a lot of
responsibilities, a lot of roles, a lot of tasks, daily or
weekly, and we tend to havephysical pain, we tend to have
emotional and mental pain, andwe tend to be reluctant to
seeking help from a mentalhealth provider or just someone

(09:11):
who could alleviate our pain.
And then the third I've got tosay, you know, sometimes we get
distracted either with socialmedia or people in our
environment that don't have ourback, by distractions that
continue to hinder us from goingafter our Africanness, our

(09:33):
Blackness, our goals, dreams andreally valuing ourselves as a
human being, you know.
So I would encourage folks whoare listening to this, even my
younger self, to be able to findspaces and places that support
our back, whether that's in theworkplace, whether that's in our
social life, whether that's atschool Someone who really has

(09:56):
their back, who can help usavoid the distractions, avoid
the things that harm us or don'treally care for us, and find
spaces that do.
And for me, one of my all-timefavorite spaces that I continue
to engage in is the Associationfor Black Psychology.
This is where I find out aboutmy African ancestry.

(10:18):
This is where how I canunderstand myself and liberate
myself from the chains ofWestern Eurocentric standards
and notions and begin toparadigm shift towards an
African-centered worldview andan African-centered way of being
in the world.
And I got to ask you, sandra,like what keeps you going and

(10:42):
how do you support other men whoare experiencing similar issues
?

Speaker 1 (10:50):
What keeps me going is the fact that, one, I'm an
African-American, two, I'm awoman, right.
So those two factors rightthere.
But more importantly, I losttwo of my sisters to medical
gaslighting.
When I take a look at it and Isee what happened to them and

(11:11):
why they're no longer in my life.
As far as physically in my life, what I see, and on an everyday
basis what I see, is that ourcommunity doesn't really get it
right.
We don't really get howimportant it is for us to be in
control of our own healthcaresystem not system, but our

(11:33):
healthcare journey.
We don't get that and we needto.
So very often I am told Sandra,people you trying to help, they
don't really want to be helped.
Well, in a sense that's true,because some of them don't.
I could vouch for it and Icould say different a long time

(12:13):
ago.
But after spending 35 years inthe healthcare system, after
going and getting my degrees inthe healthcare system, in the
healthcare space, I live it, Iwalk it, I breathe it.
Every day when I come acrossmen who might seem to be
struggling or they need help,but they're really not sure how
to get that help, or they needhelp, but they're really not

(12:34):
sure how to get that help.
I actually, our foundation,serves as a cornerstone, so we
can't do everything, god knows.
I tried, I'm going to tell youwhen I first started the
nonprofit side of it.
I tried, but I came to therealization that many that Choms
, many helps is better off beingthat cornerstone.

(12:55):
So when a man comes to me andsays you know what, sandra, I'm
really struggling these are someof the issues I have I actually
reach out to the folks like youwho I know will help them.
I have a subset of men that Iknow will do the work.
I'm never going to send a manto someone that I know is effing

(13:17):
up or doesn't know what they'redoing or hasn't been clinically
trained, or not even clinicallytrained but trained lifestyle.
I would never send them to thatbecause of the simple fact that
I know that our community isalready hurt and we can't, we

(13:38):
can't take no more hurt and Iknow, as far as a woman, you
know, I know that we hurt.
But men, you guys have a Idon't want to cuss, but you guys
have so much stuff as a leaderof the family, as a leader in
the community, you have so muchstuff that you already have to

(13:58):
deal with, that, me being awoman trying to break that down.
I wouldn't be able to do it andI'm not even going to try.
So I thank you for asking methat question.
I really do.
Now you did bring up theAssociation of Black
Psychologists that you can go tocorrect.
So is there a place that mencan go to where they can

(14:20):
actually see who's on the chart,who they can reach out to?
Is there someplace other thanjust going to Dr Google and Mr
Firefox and looking for help?
Is there a directory, aresource that could be used to
seek out trained mental healthexperts?

Speaker 2 (14:44):
Yeah, I love that question.
I think there are many placesand spaces to find Black men who
are going after their goals anddreams.
I know for myself.
It was finding organizations onLinkedIn.
It was finding organizationswithin my local environment.
I'm located in the Bay Area,california, and there are

(15:05):
several Black organizations thatreally support Black men In
particular, not only ABCI, butthings like 100 Black Men, which
is another organization thatreally focuses on uplifting
Black boys and Black men.
So I would encourage folks whoare listening to this to not

(15:25):
only seek online resources likeLinkedIn for spaces and places
for Black men, but also in theirlocal environment.
I would encourage folks to findmentors who are, you know,
somewhat along the lines of thepath you want to live right,
finding a black man who works ina space or making the type of

(15:50):
money you want to make or in ahigher position that you are
seeking.
Finding those folks and reallyorienting your folks, orienting
your time and energy aroundthose folks right.
How can you link and networkwith Black men who are where you
want to be in the future?
I think that is so essentialand it helps us paradigm shift

(16:13):
away from the problems and thethings that cause us to be
distracted with obstacles and itencourages us to be proactive
and constructive with our timeand energy.
I know for myself, as a gradstudent, I'm constantly seeking
black doctorates, black folkswho have a private practice,

(16:33):
black doctorates, black folkswho have a private practice.
This is it's encouraging, it'sinspiring, it's sexy to me to go
after a goal of being a blackmale with a private practice,
and in order to do that, I needto be equipped with tools and
resources, and I know people whoare where I want to be have

(16:56):
those tools and resources, and Iknow people who are where I
want to be have those tools andresources.
So I'm going to go spend mostof my time and energy networking
and connecting and growing andlearning from those folks.

Speaker 1 (17:04):
And so I thank you so much for that.
And if you're watching thistoday or you're listening on a
podcast and you're like, okay,well, he said that, but I really
don't like using LinkedIn, andperhaps you are from the old
school where LinkedIn wastraditionally someplace where
you actually would go to find ajob, it's changed tremendously

(17:27):
over the years and so now you'reexactly correct.
You can go to LinkedIn and youcan put in black psychologist
and if they're on LinkedIn, youwill get that information, it
will come up and then you canreach out to them.
You can reach out to me and youcan say, hey, sandra, I need to
find a black psychologist or apsychiatric doctor, someone in

(17:51):
mental health for men or forboys, or a psychiatric doctor,
someone in mental health for menor for boys, and I will
actually be able to do theresearch needed to actually help
you, to help that man or helpthat boy, with actually finding
out who is a black male mentalhealth expert that you could go
to in the region that you livein.
Many times, if you haveinsurance, that's a whole nother

(18:15):
issue.
There's a whole nother day thatwe can go over that.
So I would use LinkedIn or, youknow, contact Choms, contact me
, sandra, at Choms Foundation,and say I need to find a doctor.
What happens?
And I do want to take, and Idon't want to take up that much
time with this, but what I dowant everyone to know is we had,

(18:38):
and we still have DEI diversity, equity and inclusion.
Well, part of DEI, and somethingthat we lost sight of and
something that we don't have asmuch of right now, is you
actually calling your doctor'soffice and asking them to find

(19:00):
you a black doctor.
They won't do it.
They won't do it.
I mean, that's something thatwe lost.
It used to be where you couldgo and easily find a doctor by
their color.
It's not going to happen whenyou have a doctor and excuse me

(19:23):
for coughing when you have adoctor that you're comfortable
with and that doctor leaves thepractice.
They want to tell you wherethey're going, but they sign a
contract stating that theycannot tell you where they're
going.
But they sign a contractstating that they cannot tell
you where they're going.
It's a conflict of interest andno one works because they ain't
got nothing better to do.

(19:43):
They just want to work.
You know no one does that.
So we as a community of peopleand you know whether it's male,
whether it's female, whetherit's based on race or gender,
whatever it's based on.
You need to know thisinformation, which is why I'm
continuously trying to push itout there as much as I can,

(20:05):
because I know that there arepeople that don't know.
I know that I get emails and Iget calls and, sandra, I can't
find this and I don't want to goto a doctor If it ain't
African-American.
I don't want to go to a doctor.
My husband he prefers to have afemale doctor.
He said they take better careof him.
So when he's looking for adoctor, I know I need to find

(20:27):
him a female doctor, but hisfallback is me and he knows that
I can actually help him findthat.
Whatever it is he needs you whoare listening or watching this.
You also have that same outletbecause you have a connection to
Sandra.
Whether it's Facebook, whetherit's LinkedIn, whether it's

(20:48):
sending me an email, whatever itis, you now have a connection
to me.
So when I get upset andrightfully so when I'm talking
to someone who I know I'verepeated this information to, or
I know that I have had a guest,like Zach on, who's going over
this information and you call meand say but I didn't know, it's

(21:11):
not an excuse.
We got to get over theseexcuses.
People, the information is outhere.
You just have to want to dobetter for yourself and you just
have to want to actually beeducated, empowered and engaged
in your own healthcare.
I can't make you do that.
I'm not even going to.
I tried.
I beat myself up so bad becauseI was trying.

(21:32):
I'm at the point now where I'mtired and I'm not going to beat
myself up.
I'm going to keep giving theinformation without beating
myself up.
And I see Ms Carolyn Colemansays hello.
Hello, ms Carolyn Coleman,thank you so much for joining us
.

Speaker 2 (21:48):
And I got to add something.
You know, if you're looking fora black psychologist, yeah,
it's pretty rare and hard tofind.
I know you could potentiallyfind some on Psychology Today.
It's a website where you canfind therapists in your area.
They do have search filters forblack folks so you can search

(22:09):
by not only gender but uh, youcould, you know, search by
ethnicity as well.
I also want to shout out anorganization uh, black men in
white coats.
They're on linkedin, they're onyoutube and several other
social media sites.
Um, these are black mendedicated to the medical field.
Um, they're a dope group.

(22:30):
Definitely check them out.
If you need a doctor in yourarea or just need help finding
one in your area, I would reachout to them as well.
They're a great group,constantly putting out events
and testimonials and upliftingBlack men pursuing higher
education and doctorate degrees.

Speaker 1 (22:52):
Thank you so much for that.
So you said it's psychologytoday and what's the other one
that you said?
it Black men in white coats,okay, and this is the thing.
People Guess what.
We got telehealth now.
So, even if they're not in yourarea, you can always ask them
do they offer telehealthservices?

(23:13):
So you no longer have to say,okay, well, I live in Chicago,
so I can only go to a doctor inChicago.
There's no excuse right now.
There's really not.
What I would suggest that youdo is that once you use a tool
and you find a doctor that youfeel comfortable with, then
check with your insurance to seeif it's covered, or.

(23:36):
There's many organizations Idon't want to say many, I know
of two that will actually, ifyou don't have insurance, will
actually help you to find amental health expert that will
work with you for little or nextto nothing, meaning they will
put you on a sliding fee scale.
There's no excuse, nonewhatsoever.
Zach, my next question is thisIn your research, have you

(24:00):
identified specific mentalhealth challenges that
disproportionately affect men,whether it's based on their race
or their age, as compared towomen, and, if so, what are?
Can you give us like twoexamples?

Speaker 2 (24:15):
Yeah, I mean.
The first thing that comes tomind is the suicide rates.
You know Black men are fourtimes more likely to attempt
suicide in comparison to whitefolks.
You know which is an alarmingrate.
And I think in my experienceworking with black men here in

(24:36):
the Bay, there are severalfactors related to that, factors
such as low socioeconomicstatus.
Right, living in the Bay wherecost of living is high, it could
be hard to take care ofyourself, it can be hard to
afford just living here inCalifornia, thereby increasing

(24:59):
the levels of hopelessness anddespair.
Also, substance use is a commonissue among Black men in
particular issue among black menin particular.
Many black men have high ratesof substance abuse, where we are
abusing drugs and othersubstances and this really

(25:22):
impacts our levels of memory.
This really impacts our levelsof emotion, regulation and
expression.
It impacts seeking jobs andmaintaining jobs and it also
just impacts our socialwell-being.
So I've worked with severalBlack men who are homeless, with

(25:47):
substance use issues and littleto no income, and I think when
you combine these three things,it makes for a recipe that is
hard to overcome, especiallywithout a mental health
professional or a primary caredoctor.
So we've got to address thoseissues.

(26:10):
These issues are very commonamong black men and you know I'm
passionate in wanting toprovide a space and a place in
therapy to address these issues.

Speaker 1 (26:27):
Thank you so much for that.
And you know I do want to backup a minute because I you stated
something in the first question, your response to the first
question that I actually need toaddress, and it's this you
stated that you know, physically, your physical condition is
attached to your mentalcondition.

(26:47):
And so many times men will say,well, my back hurts, or I'm
really not feeling well, or yougot any other thing that's going
on with you physically and youlose sight of that physical
condition, maybe attached tothat mental, whatever that
mental state is that you'regoing through.
And guess what, if you don'thave either one of them checked,

(27:10):
you're not going to be verygood to yourself nor your family
, right?
So a lot of times when peopleare talking, or I'm hearing
things they're saying, well,that has a mental health issue,
that's a physical health issue.
Mental and physical are all onehealth.
There's no such thing.
They are all tied together.

(27:31):
There's no such thing.
They are all tied together.
So, ladies, if your man isconstantly complaining that his
back is hurting, men, evenwithout your woman, if you're
constantly finding that yourback is hurting or you're having
headaches or indigestion oranything like that, take some
time, question him and say hey,what's going on with your life?
A lot of times, they don't wantto tell us that stuff.

(27:54):
So, men, I'm asking you to beresponsible enough when you
start noticing that you'restarting to have many more
headaches than you used to have,or backaches, or whatever.
I'm asking you to take the timeto sit down.
If you don't want to contact amental health expert, sit down.
If you don't want to contact amental health expert, sit down.

(28:15):
Sit down and think about what'sgoing on in your life that's
causing you to feel like that.
You could probably come up withthe answer yourself whether it's
stress, anxiety, depression.
You come up with it yourself,but know that you need to take
the time when you start seeingthese things happen on a regular
basis to figure out why you'refeeling like that, because very

(28:35):
often it's tied to a mentalhealth issue.
Once again, the two areintertwined, so please take the
time to consider yourself.
My next question is this howdoes societal expectations of
men impact men's willingness toseek help for mental health
issues?
And I'm going to break thatdown what makes men?

(28:57):
As women, we do it too, butthis is Men's Health Month, so
I'm going to ask it in a men'sway.
What makes men think that it'snot okay to be okay?
Where's that coming from?

Speaker 2 (29:12):
to be okay.
Well, I mean, what makes them?
Where's that coming from?
Yeah, that's a deep question.
You know, I think oftentimesI've observed within myself that
I have to be a workhorse,constantly working long hours,
putting long, you know, puttinglarge amounts of effort into all

(29:35):
the responsibilities that Ihave on my plate.
Right, I'm going to this place,I've got that responsibility,
that role.
I'm going to another place.
I've got to fulfill thisrequirement.
And I think many men, includingmyself, carry this weight of
stress, weight of anxiety, highexpectation.

(29:56):
We're not getting enough sleep,we have anxious thoughts either
most of the day or most of theweek.
We are grouchy, irritable.
It becomes hard for us toexpress and regulate emotions.
Hard for us to express andregulate emotions, you know.
We get harder on ourselves, webecome pessimistic.

(30:24):
All these different things tendto be wrapped up within myself
and it becomes hard to recognizethat I need help, that the
world expects me to do, do, doinstead of be, be, be, right,
I'm constantly meeting someoneelse's expectation and
constantly stepping into a roleof responsibility that I do not

(30:44):
feel that it is safe, or I havethe opportunity to just be in
the world, and so I'mencouraging for folks who are
listening to this, especiallyBlack men to be able to find

(31:04):
spaces and places where you canjust be and also really seek
help in re-examining your rolesand responsibilities and
expectations.
I think some of the expectationsI have on myself are someone
else's right.
I've, I took on thisunfortunate expectation of a

(31:27):
huge burden on my back.
I've took so muchresponsibilities, roles, tasks
and agenda that I just have todo regardless and I have no say.
And so, if you're listening tothis again, it's being able to

(31:47):
re-examine that and paradigmshift towards your Blackness,
your essence of being human inthe world, and being able to
just be, be a Black dude and beunapologetically about it,
instead of being forced intoroles and responsibilities that
do not align with you.

Speaker 1 (32:10):
Thank you so much for that.
And you know, man, it's okay,it's okay for you to take.
You know, we're encouraged aswomen, we're encouraged so often
to actually drop the luggage,quit carrying that baggage
around you around, it's not oursto carry around.
And men, that's the same thingwith you.
I mean, and you're right, sooften men take on this extra

(32:33):
responsibility because that'swhat society tells you that
you're supposed to do,Especially with black men.
You take on all of thisresponsibility and you're
thinking, okay, well, I got todo it because that's what you've
been force-fed.
But you got to unfeed yourselfand you got to say it's okay for
me to not pick this up rightnow.

(32:55):
A lot of times there's thingsthat I want to do and put an
issue on my husband, a burden onmy husband, and he's trying to
do it.
But he really doesn't need tohave to try to do it.
It's okay for him to say, nottoday, babe, maybe next week,
Right, but as men, they, youknow, try to hold up their end

(33:17):
and they try to do what they can.
And you know there's too muchpressure and way too much stress
.
And so what do you do whenyou're in a relationship or a
marriage when both you and yourspouse are stressed out, anxiety
, late, depressed, what's goingto happen?
What kind of relationship doyou have?

(33:38):
You know, and me being aspiritual person, I put my
spirituality in there and I'mlike I'm glad that I know who
God is and I have a God in mylife that I could turn to and I
can release some of that stufftoo.
So, even if you're not aChristian, whatever belief you
are, have that spiritual peaceso that when you're tired you

(33:59):
have some place that you can goand you can release it and let
it go.
It doesn't mean that you're notgoing to pick it back up,
because we, as people, that'swhat we do.
We put it down and pick it backup because we don't have
patience, but have thatspiritual part, because it's a
real big role.
It plays a real big role whenit comes down to mental health.

(34:20):
My last question for you is thisActually, no, we have two more.
Can you discuss and you'vetalked about it a little bit,
but can you discuss any, let'ssay two effective interventions
or programs you've studied thatare specifically designed to
support men's health, for boththe race and the age?
So is there a differencebetween the groups that are

(34:42):
available or the programs age.
So is there a difference?

Speaker 2 (34:45):
between the groups that are available or the
programs.
Yeah, I love that.
Focus on interventions, right,let's think practical about what
I do, and maybe just listeningto me might help others learn
what can they do.
I know for myself when I'mworking with Black men in
therapy, I do interventions suchas into psychotherapy, which is

(35:08):
humanistic in its focus.
Into psychotherapy focuses onhelping people understand the
essence of how they be Right andit's being able to explore how
do black men understandthemselves and be comfortable
with just being in the world,and I really love this.

(35:30):
It is African centered.
We explore the disconnects andthe disharmony that is in their
life and how to reconnect totheir African ancestry and ways
of being in the world.
So that's one intervention thatI do.
It's exciting to incorporatethis in therapy.
I also want to suggest toeverybody that, simply,

(35:57):
reflection and introspection aretwo simple things that we could
do on the daily, on the weekly,to learn about ourselves what
do we want and need in the worldand how can we go after it and

(36:18):
what can we let go of in theprocess of going after it.
I think I sort of summarize thisas min-maxing, right,
minimizing the things that arenot for us and maximizing our
goals and dreams, and people whohelp us to achieve our goals
and dreams and I think in theprocess of being in the process

(36:39):
of a min-max way of being in theworld, we kind of have to be
judicial with our time andenergy.
There are some roles andresponsibilities we have to say
no to because it doesn't alignwith our way of being in the
world, and then we also have tomaximize the things that give us

(36:59):
pleasure, joy and happiness andgo after goals and dreams that
make us who we are.
So I would really encouragepeople who are listening to this
to min-max.
It may be hard to min-max andit takes a bit of practice and
there's some context to it, butbeing able to minimize the

(37:21):
things that do not serve you issuper important.
It avoids distractions andenhances our vision for
ourselves.

Speaker 1 (37:31):
Thank you so much for that, and my last question to
you is what role do you thinkpeer support and community
networks play in improvingmental health outcomes for men?

Speaker 2 (37:41):
I would say it's an essential role.
I think men oftentimes, like Isaid before, we have a tendency
to go solo, we have a tendencyto not ask for help, we have a
tendency to be self-made, be aboss, be recognized as a leader,

(38:02):
be recognized as a leader, youknow, and I think we relegate
help as a weakness, and I thinkthere's such a disconnect there
that when we relegate help asweakness, we limit our growth

(38:28):
and potential.
So, seeking help, having friendsthat got your back, um, that
you're not just bsing with butwho are also encouraging you and
inspiring you to take that nextbaby step I know for myself,
when I work with many men intherapy, I'm encouraging them to
take a baby step that's alongtheir goals and dreams.
I do think we, as Black men,need that in our life.
Sometimes that comes from ourgirlfriend, our fiance, our wife

(38:51):
, and sometimes that comes fromour friends, family, people from
church, people from work orwherever.
But many Black men need thatsense of support, encouragement
and inspiration to take thatbaby step.
Hopefully that baby step istowards health and wellness.
Hopefully that baby step istowards seeking a primary care

(39:14):
doctor, a mental healthprofessional, that next baby
step in your career, yourfinances anything to take that
next baby step.

Speaker 1 (39:27):
Thank you so much for that.
And what I do want to add tothat part once again men, it's
okay not to be okay.
It really is.
If you find that you're notokay, seek help.
If you find that you're notokay, it's okay for you to lean
on your community support.
But I say this to everyoneplease be really careful of who

(39:50):
you have in your circle, becausesometimes, when you have the
wrong people in your circle, youdon't get help and sometimes
having the wrong people in yourcircle makes it a whole lot
worse for you, especially whenit comes down to mental health
issues, which, once again, istied to physical health.
So it just overall has anegative impact on you.

(40:13):
If you're with a group and youfeel like I'm alone, then step
out, you really don't need to bethere.
Then step out.
You really don't need to bethere.
You need to.
Actually, you know, if you gotto back up and say I'm not going
to hang with them no morebecause they on one thing and
I'm on something else, do justthat.

(40:33):
But overall, as we close anothersession of speaking with Sandra
L, what I want to remindeverybody be kind, please be
kind.
It's free, it don't cost a dime.
It don't even cost a penny,which we get ready to get rid of
pennies.
In a few years they'll be gone,but right now we need to

(40:54):
actually be kind to each other.
It's free, and with everythingthat's going on in this world,
with everything that's going onin this world, we really need to
take some time to step up ourgame when it comes to being kind
.
It's free.
With that being said, I'm goingto go ahead and close out this
session.

(41:15):
I do want to let everyone knowwe'll be back in August.
Speaking with Sandra L istaking a much needed and much
deserved break for the month ofJuly, but she will be back in
August because, once again, wedeserve to have access to
optimal healthcare.
We deserve to know what theresources are.

(41:38):
They're not going to be put ona shelf and given to you.
If you're not listening, youreally do need to listen.
Carolyn, thank you so much forsaying great information, and
Zach, thank you so much.
Each time.
I ask you could you come on?
Can we have a discussion?
You're like sure, sandra, wecan, and so I'm appreciative of

(41:59):
the fact that you're pouringfrom your heart what you want
our community, especially ourmen, what you want them to know.
I so appreciate that, and I'msure that the men that are
listening who have touched youknow the information you have
touched with.
I'm sure that they, once again,will appreciate it as well.
I want you to have the rest ofa beautiful, beautiful app.

(42:23):
It's 12 o'clock there, 12 30.
So I want you to enjoy the restof your beautiful day.
Have a blessed day.

Speaker 2 (42:29):
Thank you so much thank you, sandra, thank you.