April 14, 2025 • 53 mins
Patricia "Mamu" Rangel brings 40+ years of wisdom from the frontlines of maternal healthcare to this powerful conversation about the past, present, and future of Black maternal health. A nurse who has worked across multiple hospital units including labor and delivery, postpartum, and now an OBGYN clinic, Mamu also serves as a doula, childbirth educator, and lactation consultant—bringing a uniquely comprehensive perspective to maternal care.
The conversation explores a striking paradox: how traditional "granny midwives" with minimal formal education could deliver hundreds or even thousands of babies without losses, while our modern medical system continues to struggle with maternal mortality rates, particularly for Black mothers. "What are we doing that they were doing, that we're not doing?" Mamu asks, challenging us to reconsider what wisdom might have been lost in the medicalization of birth.
Throughout her career, Mamu witnessed the evolution of the doula profession from misunderstood outsiders to valued members of the birth team. She passionately advocates for more comprehensive doula education beyond weekend certification programs, suggesting mentorship models where experienced doulas guide newcomers. "You might be able to say you know what you're doing because of the information that you received coming out," she notes, "but when you're with someone who's been in the trenches, they can catch your flaws."
The conversation takes a poignant turn when discussing the shift away from personal connection in healthcare. "Nobody wants to talk to you anymore," Mamu observes, lamenting how technology has replaced face-to-face communication. This disconnect extends beyond the hospital to family dynamics, where meaningful interaction has diminished. For expectant families, this highlights the importance of finding providers who prioritize building relationships and truly hearing mothers' voices.
For those considering careers in healthcare, Mamu offers invaluable guidance: find your niche, understand the demanding nature of the work, and maintain emotional boundaries while still providing compassionate care. Her wisdom reminds us that birth work isn't just a job—it's a calling that requires both passion and boundaries to serve families effectively while sustaining yourself for the long haul.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I made it very clear that I recognize that justice is
indivisible Injustice anywhereis a threat to justice
everywhere.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
Good afternoon, good morning, good evening.
Not sure when you're looking atthis video, but we do want to
once again thank you for takingthe time out of your busy day to
stop, pause and listen to ourdiscussion that we will be
hosting.
We're actually recording thison February 19th Not sure what
(00:34):
day you are looking at this, butthis is a part of our 2025
Black History Month event, andwhen I say we, I'm talking about
I Sandra L Washington of ChomsMany Helps Foundation, as well
as Nneka J Hall, who is thefounder of Mother is Supreme.
(00:55):
So this year, we put our headstogether and we've come up with
a dynamic roster of speakers whohave come and who willingly
have come to share informationfor our community in reference
to their jobs, in reference tohow you can actually get a job
doing what they do.
(01:15):
It's all about recognizing the2025 Black History Month theme,
which is Blacks and labor, andour community needs help.
We need to make sure we areworking and there's ways that we
can have a livable income, andso the senior matter experts who
(01:37):
have given up their time andeffort this month all deserve a
great deal of appreciation andgratitude for just coming and
just talking to us as acommunity and making sure that
we know that, while we're at astalemate right now, we are
going to push forward, andtogether we will push forward.
(01:57):
So, with that being said, I amgoing to go ahead and I'm going
to turn it over to Ms Nneka JHall so that she can introduce
our senior subject matter expertfor the day.
Nneka is on you.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Thank you, sandra, and good evening everyone.
I you know I don't like tospeak.
Well, I do like to talk a lot,but I don't want to spend a lot
of time on myself.
But I'd love to take a momentto thank our guest, miss Mamu,
(02:35):
known to some as Mamu, to othersPat Rangel, to others Patricia,
to others mom and to others, etcetera, mamu would you please
introduce yourself to us.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Good evening, hi.
My name is.
My government name is PatriciaRangel.
What I was born with mygovernment name is Patricia
(03:24):
Rangel.
What I was born with my name inthe doula community, in the
birth community, is known asMamo.
I've been doing this work forover 40 years now, in the
hospital as well as outside ofthe hospital.
I am a doula, a birth doula, apostpartum doula, a childbirth
educator, and I enjoy what I do.
I have a passion for women'shealth and birth.
I am also a nurse and this iswhat I do all day, every day,
(03:48):
just about.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
So you said you're a nurse.
What kind, what?
Where are you?
Where do you?
Where do you work?
I mean not not theestablishment, but what unit are
you on?
Speaker 2 (04:02):
OK, so right now, I have, in my years of working,
I've worked, I've worked surgery, I've worked medicine, I've
worked PEDS, I've workedpostpartum labor and delivery,
and right now, at this point,I'm working in the clinic
(04:25):
clinical center.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
So when you say in the clinic, you are in the Well
Baby Clinic.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Yes, I'm in the Women's Health Clinic OBGYN Okay
.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
OBGYN.
All right, thank you.
And you said you've been anurse for over 40 years.
That's right.
What have you seen happen inthe maternal health realm during
that time?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
During that time that I've seen a lot of
miscommunication.
I've seen disrespect, as wellas nurses who are not keeping up
(05:31):
with their education andinformation, and so, because of
it, they have they.
When you come with somethingnew which may not be new to you
but might be new to them andthey're not aware of it, they
have a reluctance to it and it'sjust.
(05:52):
It's a shame, because youshould be open to what was
before.
We look at the granny midwives.
If you sit down and you look atgranny midwives granny midwives
you listen to theirdocumentation.
These women, some of them didnot go to college, did not have
(06:16):
a high school education, andwhen you ask them, how many
babies did they lose, some saynone.
How many babies did you deliver?
800, 1,000.
Well, I'd like to know what arewe doing now that we're losing
babies and mothers, that thesemothers, who were supposed to be
uneducated but trained and lostno babies, trained and lost no
(06:55):
babies.
Why is that?
What are we doing that theywere doing, that we're not doing
?
You know, where can we get thatinformation from?
And the other thing is is that,with all the knowledge and all
the improved so-called improvedknowledge that we have now, why
are we still losing moms andbabies?
So you know, this is somethingthat perplexes me and I have a
(07:22):
hard time dealing with.
What have I seen?
From the beginning, when I firststarted this, I've always
wanted to be a midwife.
That was my goal.
It got impeded because offamily and so I had to.
When I found out about doulawork, that was about the closest
(07:45):
thing to a midwife, so I wasvery excited about it and very
passionate about it.
When I first began, I foundthat there wasn't a lot of
respect for doulas.
Why?
Because nurses were feelingthat doulas were in the hospital
(08:05):
setting.
Nurses were feeling that doulaswere kind of like taking their
place.
And then you had some doulaswho were so excited about being
doulas and what they learned anddid not know how to communicate
with the birth realm, and sothey made negative reactions to
(08:34):
doctors and nurses and becauseof that they began to resent
them, when, in actuality, doulasare there to assist.
They're not there to take theplace of a nurse.
They're not there to take theplace of a doctor.
You're there to assist themother and to advocate for the
(08:55):
mother, not take the place ofanyone.
You should be a part of theteam should be a part of the
team, and for a long time I feelthat that's not what was
thought.
How can you go and do a programfor a weekend or a week and
come in and say that you're anexpert?
(09:16):
And then we come to anotherthing.
How can you come in after aweekend and say you're an expert
?
So there's some things that youknow.
I, as a doula of all these years, I feel that doulas coming out
(09:39):
now should have a mentor.
There should be a mentoringprogram.
They shouldn't just be thrownout there to go and find clients
by themselves.
They should be paired up withsomeone.
You should be working withsomebody who's been in the
trenches before you can say youknow, I know what I'm doing, I
(10:01):
know exactly what I'm doing.
You might be able to say youknow what you're doing because
of the information that you havereceived coming out, or a new
(10:30):
nurse she still has to be pairedwith someone you know to catch
her flaws and everything.
So I feel it should be amentoring program.
The things that I feel that theother things is that I feel you
know doulas need to get moreeducation.
There needs to be more educationin just that you just can't
think that you can just takethat doula program and that's it
(10:51):
and go out and, you know,become to be this great, great
doula.
You need to add on, like youneed to know anatomy and
physiology of the mother and thebaby.
You need to invest in what youare learning.
You need to get more knowledgeIn order for you to be.
(11:14):
I feel, in order for people torespect you, you have to be able
to, especially in the hospitalsetting.
If you are going to work in ahospital setting, because in the
home setting, if you are goingto work in a hospital setting,
because in the home setting it'sa little bit different, but
when you're in the hospitalsetting it's really academics,
you know.
So when you're able to discussand talk with that doctor and
(11:38):
that nurse and you know, givethem some feedback and be able
to accept feedback also becausewe learn from each other every
day and if we look at it thatway, we have something to give
Then I think we will have morerespect for each other.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Thank you, and I agree wholeheartedly.
We've had many conversationsabout the state of doula, the
doula today the the hospitalsetting.
For as long as you have workedin the hospital setting, were
you met with any issues?
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Were you met with any animosity from your peers
knowing that you were a doula?
Was I?
Um, yes, I was, yes, I was.
And there's many a days that Ihave had to, you know, bite my
tongue and and not say anythingand laugh, because these are my
peers, because they didn'treally know what a doula was and
they couldn't understand whywas I doing this.
(13:11):
You know, and not only why wasI doing it, but when I first
started, I was actually doing itpro bono, ok.
So they couldn't understandthat, especially when they found
out that it was pro bono, okay.
So they couldn't understandthat.
Especially when they found outthat it was pro bono, they, they
will.
You know, they were like whatyou, what you know.
(13:33):
But when you have a passion forsomething and you're trying to
learn and you're trying to getin to, to know, to do things how
it should be done, and you knowyou want to learn as much as
you can.
So when I got into it, I didn'tjust take one, I didn't just
take one program.
(13:54):
Okay, I took many programs.
And you know, my children know,my friends know I am an avid
workshopper, I'm an avidconference attender.
If there's something to belearned, I'm ready to go if I
(14:14):
can go.
So that's just how I'm wiredand that's just how I was taught
that when you go into aprofession you must keep abreast
on that profession.
If you're still working at it,you have to know the new things
(14:37):
that are coming out as well aswhat was before, so that you can
sit down and discuss it and getwhatever else you can learn
from someone else.
So yes, I did.
I got a lot of flack, a lot offlack, um, and some some things
(14:59):
were, were not so nice, but atthe end of the day now they
understand that you know thebenefits of a doula and it's not
like that anymore.
So after a while, you know, theywould call me and ask me you
(15:22):
know, can you come and be withthis patient?
At first I was really, I wasreally shocked when I was asked,
but then I got asked again andasked again and you know, and so
I began to understand that theyjust had to learn and
understand exactly what a doulais, what a doula is about, and
(15:47):
that we're not there to taketheir job but to work with them.
You know, because nurses youknow, nurses have a lot of
paperwork to do and althoughthey want to be with their
patient 24-7, want to be withtheir patient 24-7.
(16:08):
Sometimes they can't becausethey have to chart, they have to
give out medication, they haveto, you know, they have to put
on oxygen masks.
They have to do all thesethings.
So we're there to relieve themof all that.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
So I understand, and this, this, I'm drawing things
out.
Um, another hat that you wearis lactation consultant.
Now, once again, I'm looking atthe intersectionality between
working in the community andworking in the hospital setting.
(16:43):
How do those things overlapwhen you're there wearing your
nurse's hat?
But you see the need to wearany of the other hats that
you've trained to wear.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Okay.
So you know, in the hospitalsetting hospital setting,
actually, all these hats cometogether when I see a client I
might see a client come in andthis is her first baby.
If it's her first baby,sometimes she doesn't have a
(17:18):
clue, and you know, andespecially if she has, you know
her partner is with her.
They both don't have a clue,and so it comes down to taking
your time giving theminformation, evidence-based
information, giving them booksto read that might clarify or
(17:45):
give them information so thatwhen they come back, they can
ask their doctor, you know, sothat there can be a
communication with their doctor,because it's important for them
to have a communication withtheir doctor as well, and it's
important to be heard.
It's important for them to tellthe doctor what they would like
.
It's important to be heard.
(18:06):
It's important for them to tellthe doctor what they would like
and also, if there's somethingthat they do want to encourage
them to investigate, havequestions, ask questions on it,
go back and look it up, you know, show that doctor that you want
to get involved with you knowyour care, that it's just not
him telling you.
(18:26):
You know, this is what you need, this is what you want.
So these are the things thatyou know.
I find that when you with me, myhats come into play with my
clients.
Unless I have a client that'san outside client and I'm doing
(18:49):
something specific.
If I'm going to see her becauseshe's complaining of
breastfeeding and I see where ispositioning, or something of
that sort, then I have what I'myou know.
I have that in mind.
This is what I'm going to talkabout In the hospital setting.
(19:11):
When they come to me, I neverknow what I'm going to talk
about.
It could be parenting, it couldbe you know how do I hold the
baby.
We might have to have a sessionon the positions of the baby.
We might have to have a sessionon you know how to place that
(19:33):
baby on.
Do a crawl and get on by itself, which they're always
fascinated with.
Give them information on a VBAC.
You know a vaginal birth aftercesarean section.
You know to ask if that'ssomething that you're thinking
(19:57):
about.
Speak to your doctor about it.
But when you go with them, gowith them with information why
you feel you should be able todo it.
You know, and let him tell you.
You know the outcome and thenyou can weigh the outcome of
what you want to do.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
So what recommendations do you have for
someone who is choosing servicesfrom a hospital setting Versus
like?
I know that I've worked as avolunteer doula through a
hospital setting as a volunteerdoula through a hospital setting
(20:46):
and there were certain thingsthat I could not do with my
clients because I was working asa volunteer doula through the
hospital setting versus themfinding me on the street and
being able to work with themdirectly on the street.
What are some of the ways thatyou can tell us for people to
navigate the system if they arechoosing services within the
(21:09):
hospital setting?
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Number one if you're choosing hospital setting, you
need to, first of all, yourdoula needs to go with you to a
meeting with your doctor.
You know one of yourappointments she needs to go to,
preferably the next.
When you hire your doula, thenext appointment she should go
(21:33):
with you to the hospital.
If you're a doula in thehospital, more than likely the
hospital is going to havecertain do's and don'ts, so you
might be restricted.
It's all according to thehospital's policy and procedure
(21:58):
and I believe that if you are acertain group going into a
hospital setting, you should sitdown and have some kind of
conversation with the hospitalas to you know what your
(22:18):
business goals are, what your,how you see birth and what are
your actions going to be or howwould you like it to be.
But you need to discuss that.
When you're on your own, it's alittle bit different, because
(22:45):
this person is going to chooseyou because of what you say,
what you present to the table,so what you bring to the table.
They want to join you in theirmeal and then they're going to
have to find a hospital that isgoing to be conducive and a
(23:06):
doctor that's going to beconducive to what they want, and
that's the other thing.
You have to find a doctor whois conducive to what you want
within the means of keeping youand your baby safe.
Okay, because you might wantsomething, but it may not be
(23:26):
safe keeping you and your babysafe.
Okay, because you might wantsomething, but it may not be
safe for you or your baby.
And you have to understand that, because nobody is going to put
you or your baby in jeopardy.
But, at the same token, youneed to sit down and discuss.
If you find somebody and youthink you're comfortable with
them, before you make yourcommitment with a hospital, with
(23:46):
a doctor, even with a doula,you know, you interview, you go
there, you see, you make anappointment.
That's why you know it's goodto start early when you find out
that you're pregnant, fordoulas it's the same thing.
We have to look and see whathospital.
(24:07):
You know.
Doulas know what hospitals,what rules and regulations are
at what hospitals, and if theydon't know, they can call
another doula.
Have you been there?
Well, what was your experience?
Do you know about this doctor?
(24:28):
Do you know about that doctor?
You know, so you're able tocommunicate and share with one
another.
That's the other thing.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
So I know I asked you this question earlier before we
we hopped on, but I want to askit again in this setting in the
40 plus years that you've beendoing this work, what exactly,
if anything, have you seenimprove or or change on the
(25:05):
Black maternal health side?
Speaker 2 (25:12):
I would say I've seen it come to the forefront more.
I think we were losing babiesbefore.
I think mothers weren't beingheard before.
I don't think this not beingheard just came up.
(25:36):
So I see more action, I seemore involvement.
I see more involvement.
I see more accountabilityHolding people accountable for
(25:59):
their actions and I see moremothers now getting involved
with their care than I ever sawbefore.
When I first started workinglabor and delivery postpartum, I
used to say to moms you know,are you going to breastfeed?
And no, I'm not going tobreastfeed.
(26:22):
Well, why not?
Oh, you know, it's going tomake my breasts sad Really.
Okay, well, you know that'sgoing to happen anyway.
You know, but are you lookingat that or are you looking at
(26:46):
what's best for your baby'snutrition?
So education has changed.
So, because education haschanged, more mothers have
become educated about havingtheir baby naturally, trying to
avoid a C-section if possible,not making a C-section date
(27:15):
because that's your birth date.
You know your due date is closeto your birth date and you want
it on that date.
So these are things that I seethat are different.
I see doctors, um.
I see doctors, uh, having totalk to patients more, um, and
(27:38):
not just giving them information, and because that's what they
said, that's what she's going todo.
Families are now askingquestions, they're going online,
they are getting informationcoming back, asking, even though
(27:58):
I don't agree with this.
You know this assembly linethat's going on in the hospital.
I understand that the hospitalis a business, but I also
understand that when you havewomen who are pregnant, they
need a liaison.
So there should be a liaison.
If the doctors cannot be withthat patient for, but so long,
(28:22):
there still should be somebodythat they can sit down and talk
to.
That's separate, that they canmake an appointment and they can
express all their feelings,because they have feelings and
they want to communicate.
And this 15 minutes that is inwith the doctor.
What I noticed is that they'llgo in there and they'll stay 15
(28:45):
minutes and then, when they cometo the nurse, they have all
these questions that they wantanswered.
And you know some of thesequestions should really be
answered by the doctor.
But when you ask them, did youask the doctor?
No, he seemed a little busy.
Well, even if he's busy, hestill has to speak to you.
You know he still has to talkto you.
(29:08):
Whether you say can I come backduring the week and speak to
you.
Can we make some kind of timearrangement where I can come and
sit down and talk to you?
Is that possible?
But you have to be heard and Ithink now they see that you know
(29:28):
where.
You know, women are being moreinformed, women are being more
in tune with their body.
Women and as well and not justwomen, fathers too, because we
forget about the fathers, notjust women, fathers too, because
we forget about the fathers.
But I mean, I never forgetabout the fathers, you know.
So fathers are getting involved.
(29:48):
I get fathers involved in care.
I ask them how are they feeling, you know, is there anything
they want to talk about?
Do they have any questions orconcerns?
Because a lot of times weforget to ask them and they get
lost in it.
You know, and they shouldn't.
They should be supportive ineverything the birth, the
(30:14):
breastfeeding, the postpartumcare.
You know they need to knowwhat's going on too, and they go
through postpartum blues aswell.
You know this is something thathas been discussed about
fathers going through postpartumand postpartum depression as
well.
So these are things that youknow can be addressed.
(30:37):
But what's the difference thatI've seen?
I've seen it come to theforefront.
More.
That's what I've seen.
I've seen it open up.
You know the quietness is gone.
You know why did this happen.
You know people want anexplanation.
(30:58):
Why is this happening?
They're holding hospitalsaccountable.
Explanation why is thishappening?
They're holding hospitalsaccountable.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
They're holding doctors accountable, and because
of that you cannot be lax.
You have to give your best,because you're going to be
accountable for what youractions are.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
Thank you, sandra.
Do you have any questions forour guests this evening?
When they first found outthey're pregnant, do you also
recommend even when they starttalking about building a family?
If they have that opportunityto start talking about building
a family, do you recommend thatthey actually talk about it even
before they find, before theyactually go through the process
(31:57):
of being told that the woman ispregnant?
Do you recommend that be aconcept or a topic?
Speaker 2 (32:02):
of talk.
You know it's funny that yousaid that, because that's
something that I've beenthinking about about
preconception discussion,discussing not so much anatomy
and physiology but discussinghow do you feel about getting
(32:27):
pregnant now?
Right, whether you want to nowor you don't want to.
Do you have the funds?
Do you want to save your eggs?
Because so many women are nowthinking about business
(32:48):
education, so I see a lot ofwomen getting pregnant later
than earlier.
So, yeah, they should.
There should be a discussionand it should be a very open
discussion.
There should be a discussionand it should be a very open
discussion.
(33:15):
I think, if you know because itcan be something if you're with
someone and you're with somebodyand you want kids, and suppose
that person wants to wait Right,wants to wait you need to
rationalize that out before youpop up and say, oh listen, the
(33:46):
rabbit died or the test ispositive, and then there you go.
You know there's a dilemma.
So the act of communication isvery important.
You need to be on the same pageand, yes, you need.
There should be a group forpreconception to sit down and
talk, to talk about what do youwant from life, to talk about.
What do you want from life?
What do you really want?
In a group, where, or a group,or even one-on-one?
(34:12):
You know what is it that youwant, what is it that you don't
want?
These things need to be, youknow, spoken about.
They don't need to be waitinguntil you get pregnant.
You need to know what'sentailed once you have a baby,
because this is a person.
This is a person that you'reresponsible for their life, you
(34:36):
know, which means that you'regoing to have to take time out,
you know, do you get a nannythat's going to, you know, be
with your baby most of the timewhile you're?
You know, you come home andthen you have a couple of hours
with that baby.
Is that what you want, you know?
Is that how you want it to go?
So, yes, it should be.
(34:58):
It's very important and that'san important thing.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
And then my other question is this this and you've
touched upon it briefly, and itgoes to the part which is, you
know, our theme behind this isblacks and labor.
Are there doulas that areactually being?
I mean, I don't know if they'rebeing licensed in certain
states to actually not havephysiology and anatomy.
Are they coming out of schoolwithout that knowledge?
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Well, the thing is is that you have some programs
that they touch on.
You know they touch on anatomyand physiology, but it's not
that you need a total.
You know anatomy and physiology, course, but you need to know
(35:48):
the anatomy and physiology ofwhat that mother is going
through.
You should know the anatomy andphysiology of how the blood is
circulating.
You know you need to know theanatomy and physiology.
If you're going in with a momand she's getting ready to have
(36:09):
a section, you should knowwhat's going on in that section.
You know Not just what you see,but what is actually going on.
You know you need to know thecirculation of the blood, how
that baby is being fed, whatnutrition does that mother need?
(36:33):
What part does the placentareally play?
You know, in the delivery andafter the delivery.
You know what is the history ofthe placenta.
You know why are we all of asudden into placental
encapsulation, which actuallyhas been done for centuries?
(36:57):
You know it's nothing new.
It is not new.
It's just done in certain areasfor certain reasons.
(37:19):
But when you go and you look atit, you know they actually
correlate with each other.
Why, why they do it.
So that's why I think you knowyou need to know the anatomy and
physiology Some people when Isay people, I don't mean to say
people, but some courses.
I think some courses are tooshort.
Right, you know you're cramminginformation and you know you
(37:43):
cram it when you cram something.
How can you, you know, in aweekend?
Speaker 3 (37:50):
You know, there's just certain that's.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
That's not enough time to give a doula the
(38:13):
confidence to go out on her own.
You can give her the basics,but then there's more to it.
You just can't stop there.
There's other classes that youyou really should take.
Um, like neck is uh, griefclass, because who knows your
first baby?
You don't know what you'regoing to experience.
Okay, the first day I, thefirst day that I became a, I had
(38:42):
a patient that had a cold.
Okay, and I looked at the nurseand I was so grateful for her
because I looked at her and shesaid it's okay, we got this.
She said we got this, I'm goingto walk you through it and
(39:05):
you're going to be okay.
And then the patient wound upexpiring Now I've got to go
through that.
And she sat down and we talked,you know.
And she sat down and we talkedand she was just the most.
She was the most beautiful headnurse that I ever had, very
(39:29):
empathetic, very compassionate.
You know that's the part ofnursing that I know when I
started.
We work together.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
You know you said when you started is that not
what's going on right now?
You've been in the field for 40years.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
I don't see that now.
No, I don't.
What I see now is everything isyou know, just about everything
is put it in an email.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
It's not I, it's not one-on-one, it's not I.
You know, and I'm an I personand I had to get used to that
because I'm a hands-on person,okay, so I had to get used to
that, you know, put it in theemail.
You know, put it in the email.
I show you something and youtell me I want to present
something to you and you say putit in the email.
(40:26):
Ok, I put it in the email, Isend it to you.
Then, when we have the nextmeeting, what I put in the email
, you should already know,because I've already sent it to
you.
But yet you're asking mequestions on what I sent you and
I already gave you the answers,which tells me you didn't look
at the email.
Yeah, you're right, you'reright.
You see what I'm saying.
(40:47):
So everything now has become tobe technology.
I know I'm going to get introuble for this, you know, but
this is just me.
This is just me.
You know, I want to sit down.
I want to talk to you.
Nobody wants to talk to you.
Nobody wants to talk to you.
Okay, they want you to put itin the email.
(41:09):
Email me.
Oh, that's a wonderful idea.
Speaker 3 (41:12):
Email me and you know , and some things go better when
you're talking to some person,somebody, versus putting
everything in the email,translations gets lost.
When you saying puttingeverything in the email
translations gets lost whenyou're saying put it in the
email, it just gets lost.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Now, don't get me wrong, emails have their place,
just like anything has theirplace.
Emails have their place, okay,but I just think that we are
losing With the phone, witheverything going to and don't
(41:51):
get me wrong, technology isbeautiful and and moving forward
is wonderful, but I just thinkwe're losing it.
We are losing communicatingwith each other, and you saw it
during COVID.
You know, my daughter's ateacher.
(42:12):
During COVID she said theparents were just going crazy.
Well, what are we going to dowith them at home?
You know what are we going todo.
They're going to be home allday.
What are we going to do withthem at home?
You know what are we going todo.
They're going to be home allday.
What are we going to do?
You know?
My daughter was like well, whatdo you do when they're home?
Well, maybe we can get themsome more games, you know, to
(42:36):
play on their computer.
You know, and my daughter'scalling me and she's like Ma,
there's no interaction.
You know, she said.
You know I had to sit down andI had to laugh about it because
I have five children and Iraised my goddaughter, and
(43:01):
Saturday and Sunday eitherSaturday or Sunday, sometime
during the week we would have anight where everybody did
something.
They either read a poem, theytalked about a book, they sang,
even if they couldn't sing, youknow, but they did something
(43:23):
right we did.
Family night is what we did, wedid something together, right,
that's not done.
You know that's that's reallynot done anymore and it's just
not done where you sit down andyou just have you know how many
times you sit down and just havegirl talk, right.
You know, just sit down.
(43:45):
How many times does somebodyjust call you and say you know,
listen, come have lunch, let'stalk.
Well, what's going on with you,how you doing?
You're right, you know how areyou doing, you see, because
everybody who's got a smiledoesn't mean that everything's
okay.
Sometimes you need to ask.
Speaker 3 (44:10):
And I'm with you, I wholeheartedly agree.
And sometimes well, notsometimes all the time when we
ask we need to move away fromasking close-ended questions,
because then that's when yourmental health, that's when we
see an influx of mental healthproblems happening, it's because
people are like, well, I didn'tknow that they was going
(44:32):
through all that.
What would you ask them wheny'all were talking?
Were you asking them questionsto pull that out of them, or
were you just asking them justbasic questions just to be blown
in the wind?
Yes or no is not an answer foryou to actually pull out of
someone something that they'regoing through so.
I so hardly agree with you.
(44:52):
And then my question is this wehave an influx of young people
coming into the field.
They want to be birth workersor they want to work as a nurse.
What three tips would you giveto them so that they are
successful, because, lord knows,we need them?
What three tips would you givethem to ensure that they have a
(45:13):
successful and a long career,such as yourself?
Speaker 2 (45:19):
I think the first thing is to find which table you
should eat at, right, okay,because, um, you have to be
happy and if you don't likebedside nursing, please don't do
it.
Okay, if you're a corporateperson and you want to be in
(45:42):
administration and you know thatthat's what you want, then go
into administration.
Test the waters.
Maybe you feel that you want tobe a bedside nurse Once you
start doing it.
That's not what you want andthat's okay.
But the worst thing you can dois stay doing something that you
(46:07):
do not like to do.
That is not going to benefityou and that's not going to
benefit the people you take careof.
Secondly, you know, withnursing, for me, I feel nurses
are special.
I see nursing as appalling.
(46:28):
Some people may not see thatnow.
Some people may see nursing asyou know.
I can make what I can make.
You know I can make what I canmake, but nothing can take the
(46:54):
place of you supposedly working8 to 8.
And then you wind up working 8to 11, 8 to 12.
Speaker 3 (47:04):
Mm-hmm Okay.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
So I mean, I have never left at the hour that I
was supposed to leave.
Okay, there's either a patientasking for something, or maybe
your coworker needs help withsomething, you know.
So you have to understand thatwhen you're a nurse, you know
(47:30):
there's a lot of times that youmay not get to go to that.
You know you may not get to goto that party, or you may not
get to go where you want to gobecause you got to work.
You know you're on call or youknow not, unless you're doing
agency or something like that,and you can pick and choose.
(47:52):
But when you're on staff,you're on staff.
So you have to understand thatsometimes you might miss that
anniversary.
You might miss that, you know,unless you plan ahead.
The other thing is is that youknow you have to be able to be
empathetic and sympathetic andyou can't take it home.
(48:18):
And you can't take it home.
What goes?
You know, when it comes time toleave the job, you have to
leave the job.
The job got to save the job.
Speaker 3 (48:29):
Got that right.
Speaker 2 (48:32):
And you got to go home.
You know, if you're starting totake it home, then you know
maybe that's not the place foryou, maybe you're getting too
emotionally involved and it'sgoing to start to feed off of
you and you're going to getdrained and feel like, you know,
(48:53):
somebody is just sucking allyour energy and whatnot, and
then you're going to begin toresent your job and that's the
worst thing.
You're working on a job, youlike it, but you resent it.
Yeah, so those are the threethings I think, and the most
important thing is to find yourniche, find where you're happy
(49:18):
at, and find out if you want tobe a nurse at all, right,
because sometimes you go into afield that you know you think
you want to do this and it'slike no, this is not for me.
Now let me see where I can go.
And don't wait till the hour,ok.
(49:38):
And don't wait till the hour,okay.
If you know that this is notwhere you should be, find
something else.
Speaker 3 (49:46):
Right.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
It's time for you to use your transferable skills,
find something else.
When I first started, I startedon medicine and I knew I
couldn't stay there Because Istarted taking stuff home.
It started getting personalwith my patients and you know my
mom that was a nurse she said,you know, you're bringing this
(50:11):
home, you know, and you'restressing yourself out.
I don't think you should stayon medicine.
No, and at that time I wasseeing a lot of people dying,
(50:31):
people that come in and go out,because it was during the era of
HIV and they were coming in andcoming in and going out, and
coming in, going out, and thenthey'd expire, you know, because
they don't have.
They didn't have the medicationand knowledge that they have
today.
So what I did was, um, I had tomake a decision and I was a new
(50:56):
nurse and I really didn't knowif anybody.
You know, I knew I didn't wantto go to N, you know.
I knew I didn't want to go toNICU and I knew I didn't want to
go to ER.
I knew that because I don'tlike the artist surprise.
And so I went and I told therecruiter who recruited me.
(51:18):
I told her thank you for hiringme, but that I was leaving and
she asked me.
I told her thank you for hiringme, but that I was leaving, and
she asked me where was I goingwith those five babies?
And I said well, I really don'tknow, but I know I can't stay
on medicine.
And she said well, that's okay,I want you to take two weeks
off.
You come back and you go intolabor and delivery.
(51:39):
I said but I don't have anyexperience for labor and
delivery.
You have to have an experience.
She said well, you'll get it.
She said so you come back, youdon't say anything to anybody,
you come back and you report tolabor and delivery.
And that's how I got to laborand delivery.
And then I stayed there.
It's women's health all the way, all the way, and I love there
(52:01):
it's women's health all the way,all the way, and I love it.
Speaker 3 (52:05):
Thank you for that.
I'm going to turn it back overto Nneka for her final remarks,
and thank you once again so muchfor taking the time to spend
with us and share thatinformation with us.
No problem, nneka, I'm going toturn it over to you.
Speaker 1 (52:18):
Okay, mamua, I want to thank you for sharing your
Black job with us.
You know we've been sharing alot of Black jobs this Black
History Month, mm-hmm, and in away of being able to say that
(52:40):
what others consider a Black job, we have a Black job, or two,
or 10.
We're on day 19.
So 19 Black jobs so far thatare not the ones that were
listed as Black jobs.
For your service in thank you,um, and in finding your roots in
(53:02):
um, mama, baby, um, pouringinto your mamas and your babies
yeah um, and I would love towish you all a good night.
We will see you um, see you guyssoon.
Good night, good night, we'llsee you guys soon, good night.
(53:22):
Good night, you're worthy of itall.
You're worthy of it all Forfrom you are all things and to
(53:44):
you are all things and to youare all things.
You deserve the glory.
I made it very clear that I recognize that justice is
indivisible Injustice anywhereis a threat to justice
everywhere.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
Good afternoon, good morning, good evening.
Not sure when you're looking atthis video, but we do want to
once again thank you for takingthe time out of your busy day to
stop, pause and listen to ourdiscussion that we will be
hosting.
We're actually recording thison February 19th Not sure what
(00:34):
day you are looking at this, butthis is a part of our 2025
Black History Month event, andwhen I say we, I'm talking about
I Sandra L Washington of ChomsMany Helps Foundation, as well
as Nneka J Hall, who is thefounder of Mother is Supreme.
(00:55):
So this year, we put our headstogether and we've come up with
a dynamic roster of speakers whohave come and who willingly
have come to share informationfor our community in reference
to their jobs, in reference tohow you can actually get a job
doing what they do.
(01:15):
It's all about recognizing the2025 Black History Month theme,
which is Blacks and labor, andour community needs help.
We need to make sure we areworking and there's ways that we
can have a livable income, andso the senior matter experts who
(01:37):
have given up their time andeffort this month all deserve a
great deal of appreciation andgratitude for just coming and
just talking to us as acommunity and making sure that
we know that, while we're at astalemate right now, we are
going to push forward, andtogether we will push forward.
(01:57):
So, with that being said, I amgoing to go ahead and I'm going
to turn it over to Ms Nneka JHall so that she can introduce
our senior subject matter expertfor the day.
Nneka is on you.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Thank you, sandra, and good evening everyone.
I you know I don't like tospeak.
Well, I do like to talk a lot,but I don't want to spend a lot
of time on myself.
But I'd love to take a momentto thank our guest, miss Mamu,
(02:35):
known to some as Mamu, to othersPat Rangel, to others Patricia,
to others mom and to others, etcetera, mamu would you please
introduce yourself to us.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Good evening, hi.
My name is.
My government name is PatriciaRangel.
What I was born with mygovernment name is Patricia
(03:24):
Rangel.
What I was born with my name inthe doula community, in the
birth community, is known asMamo.
I've been doing this work forover 40 years now, in the
hospital as well as outside ofthe hospital.
I am a doula, a birth doula, apostpartum doula, a childbirth
educator, and I enjoy what I do.
I have a passion for women'shealth and birth.
I am also a nurse and this iswhat I do all day, every day,
(03:48):
just about.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
So you said you're a nurse.
What kind, what?
Where are you?
Where do you?
Where do you work?
I mean not not theestablishment, but what unit are
you on?
Speaker 2 (04:02):
OK, so right now, I have, in my years of working,
I've worked, I've worked surgery, I've worked medicine, I've
worked PEDS, I've workedpostpartum labor and delivery,
and right now, at this point,I'm working in the clinic
(04:25):
clinical center.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
So when you say in the clinic, you are in the Well
Baby Clinic.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Yes, I'm in the Women's Health Clinic OBGYN Okay
.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
OBGYN.
All right, thank you.
And you said you've been anurse for over 40 years.
That's right.
What have you seen happen inthe maternal health realm during
that time?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
During that time that I've seen a lot of
miscommunication.
I've seen disrespect, as wellas nurses who are not keeping up
(05:31):
with their education andinformation, and so, because of
it, they have they.
When you come with somethingnew which may not be new to you
but might be new to them andthey're not aware of it, they
have a reluctance to it and it'sjust.
(05:52):
It's a shame, because youshould be open to what was
before.
We look at the granny midwives.
If you sit down and you look atgranny midwives granny midwives
you listen to theirdocumentation.
These women, some of them didnot go to college, did not have
(06:16):
a high school education, andwhen you ask them, how many
babies did they lose, some saynone.
How many babies did you deliver?
800, 1,000.
Well, I'd like to know what arewe doing now that we're losing
babies and mothers, that thesemothers, who were supposed to be
uneducated but trained and lostno babies, trained and lost no
(06:55):
babies.
Why is that?
What are we doing that theywere doing, that we're not doing
?
You know, where can we get thatinformation from?
And the other thing is is that,with all the knowledge and all
the improved so-called improvedknowledge that we have now, why
are we still losing moms andbabies?
So you know, this is somethingthat perplexes me and I have a
(07:22):
hard time dealing with.
What have I seen?
From the beginning, when I firststarted this, I've always
wanted to be a midwife.
That was my goal.
It got impeded because offamily and so I had to.
When I found out about doulawork, that was about the closest
(07:45):
thing to a midwife, so I wasvery excited about it and very
passionate about it.
When I first began, I foundthat there wasn't a lot of
respect for doulas.
Why?
Because nurses were feelingthat doulas were in the hospital
(08:05):
setting.
Nurses were feeling that doulaswere kind of like taking their
place.
And then you had some doulaswho were so excited about being
doulas and what they learned anddid not know how to communicate
with the birth realm, and sothey made negative reactions to
(08:34):
doctors and nurses and becauseof that they began to resent
them, when, in actuality, doulasare there to assist.
They're not there to take theplace of a nurse.
They're not there to take theplace of a doctor.
You're there to assist themother and to advocate for the
(08:55):
mother, not take the place ofanyone.
You should be a part of theteam should be a part of the
team, and for a long time I feelthat that's not what was
thought.
How can you go and do a programfor a weekend or a week and
come in and say that you're anexpert?
(09:16):
And then we come to anotherthing.
How can you come in after aweekend and say you're an expert
?
So there's some things that youknow.
I, as a doula of all these years, I feel that doulas coming out
(09:39):
now should have a mentor.
There should be a mentoringprogram.
They shouldn't just be thrownout there to go and find clients
by themselves.
They should be paired up withsomeone.
You should be working withsomebody who's been in the
trenches before you can say youknow, I know what I'm doing, I
(10:01):
know exactly what I'm doing.
You might be able to say youknow what you're doing because
of the information that you havereceived coming out, or a new
(10:30):
nurse she still has to be pairedwith someone you know to catch
her flaws and everything.
So I feel it should be amentoring program.
The things that I feel that theother things is that I feel you
know doulas need to get moreeducation.
There needs to be more educationin just that you just can't
think that you can just takethat doula program and that's it
(10:51):
and go out and, you know,become to be this great, great
doula.
You need to add on, like youneed to know anatomy and
physiology of the mother and thebaby.
You need to invest in what youare learning.
You need to get more knowledgeIn order for you to be.
(11:14):
I feel, in order for people torespect you, you have to be able
to, especially in the hospitalsetting.
If you are going to work in ahospital setting, because in the
home setting, if you are goingto work in a hospital setting,
because in the home setting it'sa little bit different, but
when you're in the hospitalsetting it's really academics,
you know.
So when you're able to discussand talk with that doctor and
(11:38):
that nurse and you know, givethem some feedback and be able
to accept feedback also becausewe learn from each other every
day and if we look at it thatway, we have something to give
Then I think we will have morerespect for each other.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Thank you, and I agree wholeheartedly.
We've had many conversationsabout the state of doula, the
doula today the the hospitalsetting.
For as long as you have workedin the hospital setting, were
you met with any issues?
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Were you met with any animosity from your peers
knowing that you were a doula?
Was I?
Um, yes, I was, yes, I was.
And there's many a days that Ihave had to, you know, bite my
tongue and and not say anythingand laugh, because these are my
peers, because they didn'treally know what a doula was and
they couldn't understand whywas I doing this.
(13:11):
You know, and not only why wasI doing it, but when I first
started, I was actually doing itpro bono, ok.
So they couldn't understandthat, especially when they found
out that it was pro bono, okay.
So they couldn't understandthat.
Especially when they found outthat it was pro bono, they, they
will.
You know, they were like whatyou, what you know.
(13:33):
But when you have a passion forsomething and you're trying to
learn and you're trying to getin to, to know, to do things how
it should be done, and you knowyou want to learn as much as
you can.
So when I got into it, I didn'tjust take one, I didn't just
take one program.
(13:54):
Okay, I took many programs.
And you know, my children know,my friends know I am an avid
workshopper, I'm an avidconference attender.
If there's something to belearned, I'm ready to go if I
(14:14):
can go.
So that's just how I'm wiredand that's just how I was taught
that when you go into aprofession you must keep abreast
on that profession.
If you're still working at it,you have to know the new things
(14:37):
that are coming out as well aswhat was before, so that you can
sit down and discuss it and getwhatever else you can learn
from someone else.
So yes, I did.
I got a lot of flack, a lot offlack, um, and some some things
(14:59):
were, were not so nice, but atthe end of the day now they
understand that you know thebenefits of a doula and it's not
like that anymore.
So after a while, you know, theywould call me and ask me you
(15:22):
know, can you come and be withthis patient?
At first I was really, I wasreally shocked when I was asked,
but then I got asked again andasked again and you know, and so
I began to understand that theyjust had to learn and
understand exactly what a doulais, what a doula is about, and
(15:47):
that we're not there to taketheir job but to work with them.
You know, because nurses youknow, nurses have a lot of
paperwork to do and althoughthey want to be with their
patient 24-7, want to be withtheir patient 24-7.
(16:08):
Sometimes they can't becausethey have to chart, they have to
give out medication, they haveto, you know, they have to put
on oxygen masks.
They have to do all thesethings.
So we're there to relieve themof all that.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
So I understand, and this, this, I'm drawing things
out.
Um, another hat that you wearis lactation consultant.
Now, once again, I'm looking atthe intersectionality between
working in the community andworking in the hospital setting.
(16:43):
How do those things overlapwhen you're there wearing your
nurse's hat?
But you see the need to wearany of the other hats that
you've trained to wear.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Okay.
So you know, in the hospitalsetting hospital setting,
actually, all these hats cometogether when I see a client I
might see a client come in andthis is her first baby.
If it's her first baby,sometimes she doesn't have a
(17:18):
clue, and you know, andespecially if she has, you know
her partner is with her.
They both don't have a clue,and so it comes down to taking
your time giving theminformation, evidence-based
information, giving them booksto read that might clarify or
(17:45):
give them information so thatwhen they come back, they can
ask their doctor, you know, sothat there can be a
communication with their doctor,because it's important for them
to have a communication withtheir doctor as well, and it's
important to be heard.
It's important for them to tellthe doctor what they would like
.
It's important to be heard.
(18:06):
It's important for them to tellthe doctor what they would like
and also, if there's somethingthat they do want to encourage
them to investigate, havequestions, ask questions on it,
go back and look it up, you know, show that doctor that you want
to get involved with you knowyour care, that it's just not
him telling you.
(18:26):
You know, this is what you need, this is what you want.
So these are the things thatyou know.
I find that when you with me, myhats come into play with my
clients.
Unless I have a client that'san outside client and I'm doing
(18:49):
something specific.
If I'm going to see her becauseshe's complaining of
breastfeeding and I see where ispositioning, or something of
that sort, then I have what I'myou know.
I have that in mind.
This is what I'm going to talkabout In the hospital setting.
(19:11):
When they come to me, I neverknow what I'm going to talk
about.
It could be parenting, it couldbe you know how do I hold the
baby.
We might have to have a sessionon the positions of the baby.
We might have to have a sessionon you know how to place that
(19:33):
baby on.
Do a crawl and get on by itself, which they're always
fascinated with.
Give them information on a VBAC.
You know a vaginal birth aftercesarean section.
You know to ask if that'ssomething that you're thinking
(19:57):
about.
Speak to your doctor about it.
But when you go with them, gowith them with information why
you feel you should be able todo it.
You know, and let him tell you.
You know the outcome and thenyou can weigh the outcome of
what you want to do.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
So what recommendations do you have for
someone who is choosing servicesfrom a hospital setting Versus
like?
I know that I've worked as avolunteer doula through a
hospital setting as a volunteerdoula through a hospital setting
(20:46):
and there were certain thingsthat I could not do with my
clients because I was working asa volunteer doula through the
hospital setting versus themfinding me on the street and
being able to work with themdirectly on the street.
What are some of the ways thatyou can tell us for people to
navigate the system if they arechoosing services within the
(21:09):
hospital setting?
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Number one if you're choosing hospital setting, you
need to, first of all, yourdoula needs to go with you to a
meeting with your doctor.
You know one of yourappointments she needs to go to,
preferably the next.
When you hire your doula, thenext appointment she should go
(21:33):
with you to the hospital.
If you're a doula in thehospital, more than likely the
hospital is going to havecertain do's and don'ts, so you
might be restricted.
It's all according to thehospital's policy and procedure
(21:58):
and I believe that if you are acertain group going into a
hospital setting, you should sitdown and have some kind of
conversation with the hospitalas to you know what your
(22:18):
business goals are, what your,how you see birth and what are
your actions going to be or howwould you like it to be.
But you need to discuss that.
When you're on your own, it's alittle bit different, because
(22:45):
this person is going to chooseyou because of what you say,
what you present to the table,so what you bring to the table.
They want to join you in theirmeal and then they're going to
have to find a hospital that isgoing to be conducive and a
(23:06):
doctor that's going to beconducive to what they want, and
that's the other thing.
You have to find a doctor whois conducive to what you want
within the means of keeping youand your baby safe.
Okay, because you might wantsomething, but it may not be
(23:26):
safe keeping you and your babysafe.
Okay, because you might wantsomething, but it may not be
safe for you or your baby.
And you have to understand that, because nobody is going to put
you or your baby in jeopardy.
But, at the same token, youneed to sit down and discuss.
If you find somebody and youthink you're comfortable with
them, before you make yourcommitment with a hospital, with
(23:46):
a doctor, even with a doula,you know, you interview, you go
there, you see, you make anappointment.
That's why you know it's goodto start early when you find out
that you're pregnant, fordoulas it's the same thing.
We have to look and see whathospital.
(24:07):
You know.
Doulas know what hospitals,what rules and regulations are
at what hospitals, and if theydon't know, they can call
another doula.
Have you been there?
Well, what was your experience?
Do you know about this doctor?
(24:28):
Do you know about that doctor?
You know, so you're able tocommunicate and share with one
another.
That's the other thing.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
So I know I asked you this question earlier before we
we hopped on, but I want to askit again in this setting in the
40 plus years that you've beendoing this work, what exactly,
if anything, have you seenimprove or or change on the
(25:05):
Black maternal health side?
Speaker 2 (25:12):
I would say I've seen it come to the forefront more.
I think we were losing babiesbefore.
I think mothers weren't beingheard before.
I don't think this not beingheard just came up.
(25:36):
So I see more action, I seemore involvement.
I see more involvement.
I see more accountabilityHolding people accountable for
(25:59):
their actions and I see moremothers now getting involved
with their care than I ever sawbefore.
When I first started workinglabor and delivery postpartum, I
used to say to moms you know,are you going to breastfeed?
And no, I'm not going tobreastfeed.
(26:22):
Well, why not?
Oh, you know, it's going tomake my breasts sad Really.
Okay, well, you know that'sgoing to happen anyway.
You know, but are you lookingat that or are you looking at
(26:46):
what's best for your baby'snutrition?
So education has changed.
So, because education haschanged, more mothers have
become educated about havingtheir baby naturally, trying to
avoid a C-section if possible,not making a C-section date
(27:15):
because that's your birth date.
You know your due date is closeto your birth date and you want
it on that date.
So these are things that I seethat are different.
I see doctors, um.
I see doctors, uh, having totalk to patients more, um, and
(27:38):
not just giving them information, and because that's what they
said, that's what she's going todo.
Families are now askingquestions, they're going online,
they are getting informationcoming back, asking, even though
(27:58):
I don't agree with this.
You know this assembly linethat's going on in the hospital.
I understand that the hospitalis a business, but I also
understand that when you havewomen who are pregnant, they
need a liaison.
So there should be a liaison.
If the doctors cannot be withthat patient for, but so long,
(28:22):
there still should be somebodythat they can sit down and talk
to.
That's separate, that they canmake an appointment and they can
express all their feelings,because they have feelings and
they want to communicate.
And this 15 minutes that is inwith the doctor.
What I noticed is that they'llgo in there and they'll stay 15
(28:45):
minutes and then, when they cometo the nurse, they have all
these questions that they wantanswered.
And you know some of thesequestions should really be
answered by the doctor.
But when you ask them, did youask the doctor?
No, he seemed a little busy.
Well, even if he's busy, hestill has to speak to you.
You know he still has to talkto you.
(29:08):
Whether you say can I come backduring the week and speak to
you.
Can we make some kind of timearrangement where I can come and
sit down and talk to you?
Is that possible?
But you have to be heard and Ithink now they see that you know
(29:28):
where.
You know, women are being moreinformed, women are being more
in tune with their body.
Women and as well and not justwomen, fathers too, because we
forget about the fathers, notjust women, fathers too, because
we forget about the fathers.
But I mean, I never forgetabout the fathers, you know.
So fathers are getting involved.
(29:48):
I get fathers involved in care.
I ask them how are they feeling, you know, is there anything
they want to talk about?
Do they have any questions orconcerns?
Because a lot of times weforget to ask them and they get
lost in it.
You know, and they shouldn't.
They should be supportive ineverything the birth, the
(30:14):
breastfeeding, the postpartumcare.
You know they need to knowwhat's going on too, and they go
through postpartum blues aswell.
You know this is something thathas been discussed about
fathers going through postpartumand postpartum depression as
well.
So these are things that youknow can be addressed.
(30:37):
But what's the difference thatI've seen?
I've seen it come to theforefront.
More.
That's what I've seen.
I've seen it open up.
You know the quietness is gone.
You know why did this happen.
You know people want anexplanation.
(30:58):
Why is this happening?
They're holding hospitalsaccountable.
Explanation why is thishappening?
They're holding hospitalsaccountable.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
They're holding doctors accountable, and because
of that you cannot be lax.
You have to give your best,because you're going to be
accountable for what youractions are.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
Thank you, sandra.
Do you have any questions forour guests this evening?
When they first found outthey're pregnant, do you also
recommend even when they starttalking about building a family?
If they have that opportunityto start talking about building
a family, do you recommend thatthey actually talk about it even
before they find, before theyactually go through the process
(31:57):
of being told that the woman ispregnant?
Do you recommend that be aconcept or a topic?
Speaker 2 (32:02):
of talk.
You know it's funny that yousaid that, because that's
something that I've beenthinking about about
preconception discussion,discussing not so much anatomy
and physiology but discussinghow do you feel about getting
(32:27):
pregnant now?
Right, whether you want to nowor you don't want to.
Do you have the funds?
Do you want to save your eggs?
Because so many women are nowthinking about business
(32:48):
education, so I see a lot ofwomen getting pregnant later
than earlier.
So, yeah, they should.
There should be a discussionand it should be a very open
discussion.
There should be a discussionand it should be a very open
discussion.
(33:15):
I think, if you know because itcan be something if you're with
someone and you're with somebodyand you want kids, and suppose
that person wants to wait Right,wants to wait you need to
rationalize that out before youpop up and say, oh listen, the
(33:46):
rabbit died or the test ispositive, and then there you go.
You know there's a dilemma.
So the act of communication isvery important.
You need to be on the same pageand, yes, you need.
There should be a group forpreconception to sit down and
talk, to talk about what do youwant from life, to talk about.
What do you want from life?
What do you really want?
In a group, where, or a group,or even one-on-one?
(34:12):
You know what is it that youwant, what is it that you don't
want?
These things need to be, youknow, spoken about.
They don't need to be waitinguntil you get pregnant.
You need to know what'sentailed once you have a baby,
because this is a person.
This is a person that you'reresponsible for their life, you
(34:36):
know, which means that you'regoing to have to take time out,
you know, do you get a nannythat's going to, you know, be
with your baby most of the timewhile you're?
You know, you come home andthen you have a couple of hours
with that baby.
Is that what you want, you know?
Is that how you want it to go?
So, yes, it should be.
(34:58):
It's very important and that'san important thing.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
And then my other question is this this and you've
touched upon it briefly, and itgoes to the part which is, you
know, our theme behind this isblacks and labor.
Are there doulas that areactually being?
I mean, I don't know if they'rebeing licensed in certain
states to actually not havephysiology and anatomy.
Are they coming out of schoolwithout that knowledge?
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Well, the thing is is that you have some programs
that they touch on.
You know they touch on anatomyand physiology, but it's not
that you need a total.
You know anatomy and physiology, course, but you need to know
(35:48):
the anatomy and physiology ofwhat that mother is going
through.
You should know the anatomy andphysiology of how the blood is
circulating.
You know you need to know theanatomy and physiology.
If you're going in with a momand she's getting ready to have
(36:09):
a section, you should knowwhat's going on in that section.
You know Not just what you see,but what is actually going on.
You know you need to know thecirculation of the blood, how
that baby is being fed, whatnutrition does that mother need?
(36:33):
What part does the placentareally play?
You know, in the delivery andafter the delivery.
You know what is the history ofthe placenta.
You know why are we all of asudden into placental
encapsulation, which actuallyhas been done for centuries?
(36:57):
You know it's nothing new.
It is not new.
It's just done in certain areasfor certain reasons.
(37:19):
But when you go and you look atit, you know they actually
correlate with each other.
Why, why they do it.
So that's why I think you knowyou need to know the anatomy and
physiology Some people when Isay people, I don't mean to say
people, but some courses.
I think some courses are tooshort.
Right, you know you're cramminginformation and you know you
(37:43):
cram it when you cram something.
How can you, you know, in aweekend?
Speaker 3 (37:50):
You know, there's just certain that's.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
That's not enough time to give a doula the
(38:13):
confidence to go out on her own.
You can give her the basics,but then there's more to it.
You just can't stop there.
There's other classes that youyou really should take.
Um, like neck is uh, griefclass, because who knows your
first baby?
You don't know what you'regoing to experience.
Okay, the first day I, thefirst day that I became a, I had
(38:42):
a patient that had a cold.
Okay, and I looked at the nurseand I was so grateful for her
because I looked at her and shesaid it's okay, we got this.
She said we got this, I'm goingto walk you through it and
(39:05):
you're going to be okay.
And then the patient wound upexpiring Now I've got to go
through that.
And she sat down and we talked,you know.
And she sat down and we talkedand she was just the most.
She was the most beautiful headnurse that I ever had, very
(39:29):
empathetic, very compassionate.
You know that's the part ofnursing that I know when I
started.
We work together.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
You know you said when you started is that not
what's going on right now?
You've been in the field for 40years.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
I don't see that now.
No, I don't.
What I see now is everything isyou know, just about everything
is put it in an email.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
It's not I, it's not one-on-one, it's not I.
You know, and I'm an I personand I had to get used to that
because I'm a hands-on person,okay, so I had to get used to
that, you know, put it in theemail.
You know, put it in the email.
I show you something and youtell me I want to present
something to you and you say putit in the email.
(40:26):
Ok, I put it in the email, Isend it to you.
Then, when we have the nextmeeting, what I put in the email
, you should already know,because I've already sent it to
you.
But yet you're asking mequestions on what I sent you and
I already gave you the answers,which tells me you didn't look
at the email.
Yeah, you're right, you'reright.
You see what I'm saying.
(40:47):
So everything now has become tobe technology.
I know I'm going to get introuble for this, you know, but
this is just me.
This is just me.
You know, I want to sit down.
I want to talk to you.
Nobody wants to talk to you.
Nobody wants to talk to you.
Okay, they want you to put itin the email.
(41:09):
Email me.
Oh, that's a wonderful idea.
Speaker 3 (41:12):
Email me and you know , and some things go better when
you're talking to some person,somebody, versus putting
everything in the email,translations gets lost.
When you saying puttingeverything in the email
translations gets lost whenyou're saying put it in the
email, it just gets lost.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Now, don't get me wrong, emails have their place,
just like anything has theirplace.
Emails have their place, okay,but I just think that we are
losing With the phone, witheverything going to and don't
(41:51):
get me wrong, technology isbeautiful and and moving forward
is wonderful, but I just thinkwe're losing it.
We are losing communicatingwith each other, and you saw it
during COVID.
You know, my daughter's ateacher.
(42:12):
During COVID she said theparents were just going crazy.
Well, what are we going to dowith them at home?
You know what are we going todo.
They're going to be home allday.
What are we going to do withthem at home?
You know what are we going todo.
They're going to be home allday.
What are we going to do?
You know?
My daughter was like well, whatdo you do when they're home?
Well, maybe we can get themsome more games, you know, to
(42:36):
play on their computer.
You know, and my daughter'scalling me and she's like Ma,
there's no interaction.
You know, she said.
You know I had to sit down andI had to laugh about it because
I have five children and Iraised my goddaughter, and
(43:01):
Saturday and Sunday eitherSaturday or Sunday, sometime
during the week we would have anight where everybody did
something.
They either read a poem, theytalked about a book, they sang,
even if they couldn't sing, youknow, but they did something
(43:23):
right we did.
Family night is what we did, wedid something together, right,
that's not done.
You know that's that's reallynot done anymore and it's just
not done where you sit down andyou just have you know how many
times you sit down and just havegirl talk, right.
You know, just sit down.
(43:45):
How many times does somebodyjust call you and say you know,
listen, come have lunch, let'stalk.
Well, what's going on with you,how you doing?
You're right, you know how areyou doing, you see, because
everybody who's got a smiledoesn't mean that everything's
okay.
Sometimes you need to ask.
Speaker 3 (44:10):
And I'm with you, I wholeheartedly agree.
And sometimes well, notsometimes all the time when we
ask we need to move away fromasking close-ended questions,
because then that's when yourmental health, that's when we
see an influx of mental healthproblems happening, it's because
people are like, well, I didn'tknow that they was going
(44:32):
through all that.
What would you ask them wheny'all were talking?
Were you asking them questionsto pull that out of them, or
were you just asking them justbasic questions just to be blown
in the wind?
Yes or no is not an answer foryou to actually pull out of
someone something that they'regoing through so.
I so hardly agree with you.
(44:52):
And then my question is this wehave an influx of young people
coming into the field.
They want to be birth workersor they want to work as a nurse.
What three tips would you giveto them so that they are
successful, because, lord knows,we need them?
What three tips would you givethem to ensure that they have a
(45:13):
successful and a long career,such as yourself?
Speaker 2 (45:19):
I think the first thing is to find which table you
should eat at, right, okay,because, um, you have to be
happy and if you don't likebedside nursing, please don't do
it.
Okay, if you're a corporateperson and you want to be in
(45:42):
administration and you know thatthat's what you want, then go
into administration.
Test the waters.
Maybe you feel that you want tobe a bedside nurse Once you
start doing it.
That's not what you want andthat's okay.
But the worst thing you can dois stay doing something that you
(46:07):
do not like to do.
That is not going to benefityou and that's not going to
benefit the people you take careof.
Secondly, you know, withnursing, for me, I feel nurses
are special.
I see nursing as appalling.
(46:28):
Some people may not see thatnow.
Some people may see nursing asyou know.
I can make what I can make.
You know I can make what I canmake, but nothing can take the
(46:54):
place of you supposedly working8 to 8.
And then you wind up working 8to 11, 8 to 12.
Speaker 3 (47:04):
Mm-hmm Okay.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
So I mean, I have never left at the hour that I
was supposed to leave.
Okay, there's either a patientasking for something, or maybe
your coworker needs help withsomething, you know.
So you have to understand thatwhen you're a nurse, you know
(47:30):
there's a lot of times that youmay not get to go to that.
You know you may not get to goto that party, or you may not
get to go where you want to gobecause you got to work.
You know you're on call or youknow not, unless you're doing
agency or something like that,and you can pick and choose.
(47:52):
But when you're on staff,you're on staff.
So you have to understand thatsometimes you might miss that
anniversary.
You might miss that, you know,unless you plan ahead.
The other thing is is that youknow you have to be able to be
empathetic and sympathetic andyou can't take it home.
(48:18):
And you can't take it home.
What goes?
You know, when it comes time toleave the job, you have to
leave the job.
The job got to save the job.
Speaker 3 (48:29):
Got that right.
Speaker 2 (48:32):
And you got to go home.
You know, if you're starting totake it home, then you know
maybe that's not the place foryou, maybe you're getting too
emotionally involved and it'sgoing to start to feed off of
you and you're going to getdrained and feel like, you know,
(48:53):
somebody is just sucking allyour energy and whatnot, and
then you're going to begin toresent your job and that's the
worst thing.
You're working on a job, youlike it, but you resent it.
Yeah, so those are the threethings I think, and the most
important thing is to find yourniche, find where you're happy
(49:18):
at, and find out if you want tobe a nurse at all, right,
because sometimes you go into afield that you know you think
you want to do this and it'slike no, this is not for me.
Now let me see where I can go.
And don't wait till the hour,ok.
(49:38):
And don't wait till the hour,okay.
If you know that this is notwhere you should be, find
something else.
Speaker 3 (49:46):
Right.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
It's time for you to use your transferable skills,
find something else.
When I first started, I startedon medicine and I knew I
couldn't stay there Because Istarted taking stuff home.
It started getting personalwith my patients and you know my
mom that was a nurse she said,you know, you're bringing this
(50:11):
home, you know, and you'restressing yourself out.
I don't think you should stayon medicine.
No, and at that time I wasseeing a lot of people dying,
(50:31):
people that come in and go out,because it was during the era of
HIV and they were coming in andcoming in and going out, and
coming in, going out, and thenthey'd expire, you know, because
they don't have.
They didn't have the medicationand knowledge that they have
today.
So what I did was, um, I had tomake a decision and I was a new
(50:56):
nurse and I really didn't knowif anybody.
You know, I knew I didn't wantto go to N, you know.
I knew I didn't want to go toNICU and I knew I didn't want to
go to ER.
I knew that because I don'tlike the artist surprise.
And so I went and I told therecruiter who recruited me.
(51:18):
I told her thank you for hiringme, but that I was leaving and
she asked me.
I told her thank you for hiringme, but that I was leaving, and
she asked me where was I goingwith those five babies?
And I said well, I really don'tknow, but I know I can't stay
on medicine.
And she said well, that's okay,I want you to take two weeks
off.
You come back and you go intolabor and delivery.
(51:39):
I said but I don't have anyexperience for labor and
delivery.
You have to have an experience.
She said well, you'll get it.
She said so you come back, youdon't say anything to anybody,
you come back and you report tolabor and delivery.
And that's how I got to laborand delivery.
And then I stayed there.
It's women's health all the way, all the way, and I love there
(52:01):
it's women's health all the way,all the way, and I love it.
Speaker 3 (52:05):
Thank you for that.
I'm going to turn it back overto Nneka for her final remarks,
and thank you once again so muchfor taking the time to spend
with us and share thatinformation with us.
No problem, nneka, I'm going toturn it over to you.
Speaker 1 (52:18):
Okay, mamua, I want to thank you for sharing your
Black job with us.
You know we've been sharing alot of Black jobs this Black
History Month, mm-hmm, and in away of being able to say that
(52:40):
what others consider a Black job, we have a Black job, or two,
or 10.
We're on day 19.
So 19 Black jobs so far thatare not the ones that were
listed as Black jobs.
For your service in thank you,um, and in finding your roots in
(53:02):
um, mama, baby, um, pouringinto your mamas and your babies
yeah um, and I would love towish you all a good night.
We will see you um, see you guyssoon.
Good night, good night, we'llsee you guys soon, good night.
(53:22):
Good night, you're worthy of itall.
You're worthy of it all Forfrom you are all things and to
(53:44):
you are all things and to youare all things.
You deserve the glory.
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