Honoring Every Baby: A Mother's Perspective on Stillbirth and Healing

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:12):
Good day everyone and thank you so very much for
joining in another episode andanother discussion of Speaking
with Sandra L.
I'm absolutely excited thatshe's decided on her birthday to
spend time with us discussing atopic that is so near and dear

(00:33):
to her heart.
She's going to share with us apersonal experience and she's
also coming at us from a livedexperience, and that's what
happens a lot of times withpatients.
They have personal and livedexperiences and, unfortunately,
because patients don't realizethat it is the power of the

(00:56):
voice, the power and the tone ofthe voice, the power that the
patient holds in his or herhands, because they don't
realize it, what happens isthose stories that should be
told.
Those stories go untold.
All of us has a story to telland you might think people

(01:17):
already heard that story, but wedidn't hear your story.
So I ask you, as a patientmyself who has a personal and a
lived experience, if you have astory that you want to tell,
please reach out to us and sayhey, Sandra, I would love to be
on Speaking with Sandra L storywith the world, so that the
world knows that there are realpeople behind these stories that

(01:39):
we read about these statistics,that we see these stories that
we hear so often or that show upon Dr Google or Mr Firefox and
not realizing that there arepeople behind it.

(02:01):
They show up and a lot of usread it and we have no idea that
a lot of this stuff thatthey're telling us is made up.
There's some falsehood to it.
So, without further ado, I'mgoing to go ahead this evening
and I'm going to introduceeveryone to the dynamic, the
awesome.
She's such a sweetheart andI've grown to know her, to love

(02:24):
her as a sister should, becausewe're all queens, and so,
without further ado, what I'mgoing to go ahead and do is turn
this over to Ms Nneka J Hall.
I'm going to let her introduceherself and then we'll get into
story time.
Personal and lived experiencestory time.
Nneka, please go ahead and tellus all about yourself.

Speaker 2 (02:49):
Thank you, sandra.
I guess I will start off bysaying today is my 52nd birthday
.
I am the mom of four, three whoare with me and one who rests
in paradise, and it's a one whorests in paradise that has
brought me on this phenomenallife journey I am now.

(03:13):
I don't know what I am.
I don't even know what title touse at this point, at this
stage of the gram.
I am a researcher.
I am a full spectrum doula,serving people from
preconception all the way upthrough end of life.
I am a maternal health advocate.
I hold a bachelor's in publichealth.

(03:36):
I'm currently pursuing mymaster's in mental health and
wellness, with emphasis in griefand bereavement, in mental
health and wellness, withemphasis in grief and
bereavement.
And I guess I don't know whatelse to say about myself.
I'm the founder of Mother isSupreme Inc.
And Quietly United and LostTogether.

Speaker 1 (04:01):
Sandra.
Not only that, she is a recent2025 graduate of the University
of Maryland Patients ProfessorAcademy and I am so glad that
you know I talked her into andI'm talking to everybody into,
especially if you're in policies, if you're in public health, if
you want to study policies theway they should be studying and

(04:24):
see how they impact us all.
Please look into when it comesout next.
Normally the class is startingJuly and it's a five week
program.
It's a free program, but theinformation that you learn in
this program really likeliterally blows your mind.
I remember 2024, I graduated in2024, I graduated from the

(04:47):
program and I tell everybody,when I first went into this
program, I was like what they'regoing to teach me?
I know everything.
Week after week after week,they just kept filling you know
my mind and you know networkingthat was able to be done with
the cohorts that were in myclass and the speakers that came

(05:10):
out, the senior subject matterexperts that came out to speak
to us.
It literally placed me on anentirely different platform.
So while I thought I kneweverything, I'll be honest, I
really didn't.
I had no idea that there was somuch wrapped into what I did
know.
So Nneka graduated this yearand I'm so glad that she

(05:34):
actually took the time and madetime to actually come into the
classes and learn what she didlearn, because now we are both
prepared to take this to anotherlevel.
And so what happens with goinginto another level is this our
patients come out win-winbecause they're getting the

(05:55):
knowledge that we have, we'repassing it on to them, which
goes along with my mantra ofeach one teach one, reach one.
Don't just stop at teaching one, reach somebody else, and
encourage the person that you doreach to go ahead and teach
somebody else.
So I'm not I don't care whatorder you do it in Each one

(06:17):
reach one, teach one.
Let's keep it going, let's moveit on, because that's the only
way that we're going to besustainable in everything and
anything that we do do.
Nneka, I'm going to startasking your question.
Okay, from what perspective arethe most overlooked emotional

(06:37):
needs of mothers navigatinginstant loss?
From your perspective?
From my perspective?

Speaker 2 (06:44):
Okay, instant loss from your perspective.
From my perspective, okay, letme tell you, um, my daughter, if
she had been born alive, wouldbe 15 today.
Yes, I was born in 1973, onaugust 27th, and my daughter was
still born on august 27.
He was healthy and I wasn't,and I think the misconception

(07:13):
surrounding my daughter's notbeing alive and my feelings
about that something that shookme to the core.
I was expected to get over it.
I was asked well, did you haveto give birth?
I was asked a year later well,why are you still talking about

(07:34):
it?
I was told that these thingshappen and, honestly, healthy
children should not be dying.
Healthy children should not bedying.
And she was healthy.
So I think most people are notable to support what's not
uncomfortable, especially out oforder grief, complicated grief.

(07:57):
People don't know what to sayor what to do.
Even if they don't know whetherthe person can have another
child, they say, well, you cantry again at least, and you can
insert whatever statement.
I think I got.
At least you didn't get to knowher, at least you know you can

(08:17):
get pregnant.
I was even told that I hadenough children because I
already had a son and a daughter.
So I think, for the emotionalpiece, I think people need to do
more listening and less talking.
I tell my students to servefrom a place of open ears and

(08:43):
closed mouth, because if yourgums are flapping you can't read
a room.
And what people who sufferlosses need are advocates,
people to sit and hold space forthem and honor these little
people.
I don't understand why deceasedbabies are not treated like
babies, because they are babies,regardless of the gestational
age or the cause of the death.

(09:03):
They're babies.
All babies deserve to behonored, revered, made over,
loved on, et cetera.
For the emotional piece, Ibelieve that more people need to
be properly trained.
But empathy and this issomething that was discussed
this year in the PPA program andit took things to a new level

(09:24):
for me, because I never knew.
I knew that everyone was bornwith empathy, but what I did not
know was that, because of thechoices we make, it goes away.
So that's not something that wecan teach.
It can't be taught.
Either you have it or you don't.
Now, if you don't have it, sendthem to somebody who does have

(09:48):
it, simply because you'll bedoing further harm by not caring
for these people at a time whenthey only need positivity, love
and tenderness.

Speaker 1 (10:04):
And thank you so much for that.
You know, what you just saidgoes back to what I always end
my discussions with, and that'sbe kind always.
Who are you, as another persontalking to someone that has lost
anyone, especially a baby, tosay, well, you know, the woman
has other kids.

(10:24):
Well, at least you got someother kids.
Okay, but that's not her.
Who are you to say you know,well, you can have more kids.
How do you know that woman canhave more kids, like you're
asking?
You know and I'm not sayingthis because I want all of us
that are listening, those thatare listening I want you to

(10:46):
understand this and walk awaywith this.
Be kind always.
If you knew someone was pregnantand then they lost the baby,
don't say, well, at least youdidn't get to know her, because
if that baby is growing insideof you from the moment of
conception baby is growinginside of you from the moment of

(11:08):
conception that child becomes apart of you.
So when you no longer have thatpart of you, you know you're
waiting to say, hey, baby, andyou know watch the child grow up
and all of a sudden that's notthere with you.
That's a really hurtful andharmful thing to actually say to
someone was at least you didn'tget to know them.
So please, as you're listeningto this discussion, you know,

(11:30):
hear, and not just hear, butunderstand the words that are
being spoken by Nneka.
She lived this.
This isn't something that youknow well.
Hey, she went to sleep and shehad a dream and this happened.
She actually lived this, andbecause she lived this 15 years
ago doesn't mean it goes away.

(11:52):
This was something that will bewith her for the rest of her
life.
She'll carry this baby with herfor the rest of her life.
So if you know someone thatrecently lost a child or is
going through and think theymight miscarry or anything like
that, be kind always.

(12:13):
You never know.
Maybe the woman can't haveanother baby, maybe the man that
she's married to, or theboyfriend or whoever, maybe they
can't have no more kids.
We don't know a person'ssituation unless we actually ask
.
And I'm gonna be really honest.
Sometimes it's none of ourbusiness.
Really, sometimes it's none ofour business.

(12:36):
But if you wanna make it yourbusiness, make it your business
out of kindness, not out ofanimosity, not out of okay.
Well, I asked and I reallydon't know what to say.
So you say something that youreally shouldn't be saying,
because that doesn't make itbetter, it makes it worse.
So thank you for that Necklace.
So thank you I'm bringing onceagain.

(12:57):
I normally do and I will do ittonight.
Say be kind always, because wehave to be kind always, but for
this particular reason, I wantto say, even before the end of
the show be kind always.
I also want to say, as wecontinue on with this and I
should have said this earlier,before we started, and I didn't,

(13:20):
but I do need to say this weare going to be touching upon a
very delicate, delicate topic,very delicate, delicate topic.
So, if you are not, you know,if you're of the mindset, well,
you know what?
I really can't hear it.
Or maybe you're going throughit yourself or you know someone,

(13:40):
please.
You know this will be podcastand it'll be available on
Spotify or on YouTube.
It'll be available in so manyother places.
Take a listen to it, reach outto me and say, hey, sandra, I
couldn't listen because mymindset just wasn't really there
and it was a hard topic for meto listen or swallow and say,

(14:01):
hey, sandra, when is thatepisode coming out on podcast?
Because I need to listen to it,but I feel more comfortable
listening to it when it's justme and I'm in the right frame of
mind to listen to it.
But I do more comfortablelistening to it when it's just
me and I'm in the right frame ofmind to listen to it.
But I do want to listen to it,and I will let you know when and
where you can find it onpodcast.

(14:21):
So, please, if this is asubject that's going to touch
upon your nerves or your soul oranything your mind, please you
don't have to listen today.
This is going to be a topicthat's hard to hear, but we need
to hear it.
With that being said, nneka,can you tell us how healthcare

(14:41):
providers can better integratecompassion and cultural
sensitivity when they'resupporting families that are
grieving, when they'resupporting families that are?

Speaker 2 (14:50):
grieving.
Hire bereavement doulas, hiremy pale advocates, definitely
hire people because doctorsdon't have the capacity and,
just like if I had a heartcondition, I would not go see a
podiatrist, a foot doctor.
You need to go to people whohave the experience in the topic

(15:13):
, in the subject matter, thepeople who are trained to
support these folks Because,honestly, it takes more than 10

(15:34):
minutes or 15 minutes, I don'tknow if I mentioned I met my new
PCP last week and he was askingme questions and he looked in
my record and said well, howmany pregnancies have you had?
And I said four.
Oh, that's good, that's good.
Oh, so tell me about your fourchildren.
And I could tell he wasn'tlistening because when I got to
Aniyah he says to me oh, that'sgood, that's good.

(15:57):
I said how is having a 39 weekstillbirth good?
And then that was a teachablemoment for him and he'll never
make that mistake again with mebecause I am now I've been
advocating for years and thatwas either our first appointment
or our last appointment andbecause of the response that he

(16:19):
gave me after I schooled him, Irealized that was going to be.
It was going to be a longlasting relationship, because he
finally did apologize and hemade sure to listen, going
forward.
Sometimes, when you're workingwith providers and someone told

(16:40):
me this years ago, manyproviders, they're on the
spectrum and that changes theway that the empathy works,
changes the way that the empathyworks.
So there's no way, especiallywhen and I'll never forget 15
years ago, yesterday I won't saytoday, because I actually gave

(17:01):
birth to her the day after Ifound out she was gone, my
provider, she did everythingwithin her power to get me to
agree to go home and come back aweek and a day later for things
to happen, naturally, and Iwent.
She made the mistake of takingme into her office her actual

(17:22):
office, not an exam room and Iwouldn't leave that office until
a bed became available.
She was not able to do to mewhat she wanted to do and that
was escape.
She did everything within herpower to run from that situation
, but there was no place for meto run.
You'll notice, I hardly ever usetrigger warnings.

(17:43):
The reason why I don't usetrigger warnings in my work,
when sharing my work, whentalking about this topic, is
because I needed a triggerwarning and did not get one.
Those of us who go through it,we know each other because
everybody who knows me.
If you don't want to look at,if you don't, if you don't agree
with it, don't look at myprofile on Facebook or any of

(18:05):
the other social media sites.
But the reason why I choose notto use a trigger warning is
because the rug was pulled rightout from under me and they
tried to soften the blow, butthere was just no way to soften
that blow.
When they say I'm sorry,there's no heartbeat, there's
nothing, well, what are yougoing to do?

(18:26):
Are you going to restart it?
Where are the paddles?
What are you going to do?
Can you re?
Can you take?
No, that is not what we do.
So doctors need people who aretrained to work with this
demographic to soften the blow,and that's where the empathy
comes in, not with them.

Speaker 1 (18:47):
So what I'm hearing you say when you say that you
know the empathy doesn't comewith the doctors and you know is
the fact that, like you justsaid, you need to hire and
unfortunately there's been somany grant cuts, there's been so
many different things that havegone on that you know, while
doctors or hospitals might wantto say, hey, let's go ahead and

(19:10):
hire these people, I don't wantto say these people, but let's
go ahead and hire bereavementdoulas, let's go ahead and hire
maternal doulas, whatever weneed to do, the money is just
not there for them to actuallyhire on additional staff.

(19:31):
Are there courses and I know theproviders are like Sandra, are
you kidding me?
Courses, you know how hardthey're working us, because
medicine today is not medicine.
Medicine today is a business,and so of course, with this
business comes additionalresponsibilities.
And so here I am saying well,are there courses like

(19:55):
professional development,courses that they can actually
say hey, you know what, I'mgoing to hire you, but I'm going
to recommend that you do X, y,z for continuing credit, so that

(20:22):
you are well aware of how totreat patients when they come in
, empathetically andsympathetically treat patients.
Are there any courses like twoor three that you could think of
that would assist them withthat.

Speaker 2 (20:38):
Definitely, there are tons of courses.
Of course.
I want everyone to train withme.
I have a course that I created.
That's actually it's a two-partseries, along with my 300-plus
page manual, but there arecourses out there.
The only thing and I don't ever, while I want everyone to train

(20:59):
with me, the one thing that Iwill suggest is, if you are
looking for a perinatal losscourse, Google the person who
created the course.
Now, if you Google me, you'llsee everything that I've done
for the past 14 years.
If you Google someone and youdon't see their name pop up for
anything they've done in thiswork, they are not the ones to

(21:23):
train with.
They may have the right huebased on your necessities, but
that does not mean they know X,Y or Z.
Dr Google is out here, and sois Mr GPT, whatever you call it,
Mr AI and Miss, whatever else.

(21:43):
That is not the way to create acourse.
My course came from and I nowteach.
There are 20 courses that wereborn from that one course, which
is 10 years.
It was turned 10 this year,turned 10 a couple of months ago
, and I edit my course.

(22:06):
That's another thing.
Data changes on a regular basis, so if they're still teaching
the same information from 10years ago, that's a problem.
I make it a point to edit mycourse every year Around April.
Everything is updated and itbecomes.

(22:28):
I add on new modules if needed.
I change all of the data toreflect what's, and that's what
you need to look at in takingany course, and you also have to
look at what that person who'steaching is doing.
I was looking for acertification course that a
friend of mine mentioned and Iended up getting a whole
master's degree in a master'sprogram when I was supposed to

(22:52):
be going into somebody's MPHprogram.
I'm where I need to be now thatI'm in the coursework five
courses in to a nine courseprogram.
But this is me, and now I'malso thinking about my PhD.
You know I'm always looking fortraining.
I'm always looking to improve.

(23:12):
I'm always reading somebody'sbook, and it's not always not
just new books.
I read the old books becausethere are staples in this work
that the information shouldnever change and having that
empathy piece in there.
So you want to make sure thatthe person that you're learning
from is truly knowledgeable andnot just saying that they're

(23:35):
knowledgeable.

Speaker 1 (23:38):
Thank you so much for answering that question and the
manner in which you answered it.
What I do want to bringattention to, especially when it
comes down to subjects such asmaternal health and this is what
all feels.
But since we're talking aboutmaternal health and loss tonight
, what I do want to actuallymake sure that everyone knows,

(24:02):
is that you are correct when youput someone's information in
their name in.
You should be able to see whatwork they've done, how much
they've done, where they've doneit at.
What are the testimonialssaying about their work?
We are in a society right nowthat believes in skill-based

(24:24):
hiring.
What that means is as long asyou can do the job, we're going
to hire you.
But what happens to theeducation that should be along
with that skill?
A lot of times, that's beingoverlooked.
So when it comes to your health, the health of your baby, the
health of your community, thehealth of your friends and

(24:46):
family, when they are lookingfor a doctor, you want them to
look for a doctor that has anyclinician.
You want them to find one thatactually has.
Not only do they have theskills where they can do this,
but they also have the educationthat goes along with the skills
.
It shouldn't just be skillsonly.

(25:07):
And unfortunately, nneka, youare about the fifth person I've
spoken to this week that's in acareer-based field.
That's in a field that'sdealing with the public.
That has told me Sandra, Idon't know what has happened to
these people that are in thisfield right now.
They don't know, they don'twant to know.
It's like all we want to do isget our paycheck and then we

(25:27):
want to go home.
But if you're in a field and ifyou are one of the ones that
are listening to this andthey're in a field and you're
doing a job just because you'regetting a paycheck, please stop,
because on the other end ofthat paycheck are real human
beings.
So you taking a job becauseit's actually paying you and you

(25:51):
need money and you really arenot educated enough to speak to
the person or personally have acommunication, a line of
communication with them, you'rein the wrong field.
You could do an AI search and itwill tell you what you could do
with your field and still be inhealthcare without actually
having a direct interaction witha patient.

(26:13):
People that know me know that Ido a lot with AI.
I don't do a lot with AIbecause I'm trying to get it to
replace my brain.
I use a lot of AI because I'mtrying to get it to generate
ideas for me that I can workwith or see how I can measure it

(26:34):
up, so I can give it tosomebody else that's interested
in it and they can work with it.
But please, if you're in afield that's dealing directly
with patients, customers,whatever, and the only reason
why you're in that field is notto learn what you can learn to
make that person's life better,but to pick up a paycheck,

(26:55):
please exit that field and findsomething else to do Really you
can.
Can I add one?

Speaker 2 (27:01):
more.
I've also noticed maternalhealth is a hot topic right now.
So maternal health is a hottopic right now.

(27:24):
So what I've noticed is thatthere are a lot of people
getting upper level degrees andjust sliding in without a lick
of experience in the field,creating courses, creating doula
courses, et cetera.
Then you have the others whoare, who don't have degree, the
first who are paying for theirdoctorates.
So there's a lot out there tobe wary of.
But the best, the best resumeis not the one that the person
sends you.
It's at this point.
It's those Google footprints.

Speaker 1 (27:48):
Thank you so much for that.
So my next question is thiswhat role do you think or?

Speaker 2 (28:01):
do you know that community networks and
storytelling play in healingafter infant loss?
It validates.

(28:23):
It validates the fact that, um,I know every instance and I've
been in a couple ofdocumentaries.
I've done a lot of birth storyslams.
Whenever given the opportunity,I share, because nine times out
of 10, but it's the one who youcannot see who speaks the
loudest.
So I love sharing all of theirbirth stories and being
inclusive of all of thoseexperiences, because they were

(28:45):
all life experiences for me astheir mom and for them as a
people who were born.
So being inclusive of andhonoring all births is as long
as the person's willing to share.
Let them Don't put them overinto the corner and talk about

(29:05):
oh my goodness, they experienceda loss, so we can't invite them
to this table.
No, those are the people whoneed their stories told because
their story could save a lifelet's talk about the future,

(29:27):
what you see ahead.

Speaker 1 (29:29):
What do you see as far as any changes or any
programs that are on the horizonthat you like, we really need
to encourage?
We really need to empower thesepeople, and even for yourself,
as you get ready to become drneka j how, in another year or
two, what programs would youlike to either see, or that you

(29:52):
currently see, that are on thehorizon?

Speaker 2 (29:55):
Well, of course I'm still working on getting my
maternal health holistic carecourse, which is a little bit
deeper because it's not just asix-week course and everyone
wants quick and easy right now.
So the right people are comingmy way who need to be in the
space at the time.
But I see a lot more peoplegoing into public health because

(30:19):
that's the foundation.
I also see doulas beingincluded as community health
workers because that's what wedo and that's who we are
included as community healthworkers because that's what we
do and that's who we are.
I see communities being taughtthe old school way, you know,

(30:41):
the way of our grandparents andgreat grandparents, where sister
such and such is the one who'sgoing to come over and take care
of the new mom, regardless ofwhether she physically has a
child there or not.
I see us going back tograssroots community activism,
where I cut my teeth on thiswork, and I see people going

(31:04):
more into different disciplinessurrounding physical health,
because I see people learningsooner about their reproductive
health.
See, pregnancy starts before youget pregnant.
You know conditioning your body, eating correctly, learning

(31:24):
about what conditions you mighthave.
All of that needs to startbefore you even think about
getting pregnant and understandthat sometimes, when I mean in
my instance, and this issomething that shocked me my
second pregnancy ended in mydaughter requiring open heart

(31:47):
surgery when she was two weeksof age and she's 20.
She turned 20 last Friday andshe's perfect.
Well, she's healthy, mostlyhealthy, but the one who was
healthy died.
So, not trying to make meaningof any one situation,
understanding that each birthdeserves to be revered

(32:07):
regardless of the outcome, andunderstanding that once you're
pregnant then you're not yourpostpartum, so that person needs
that support, and I see morecourses driving those things
home so that people can furtherunderstand what their bodies
look like.
It's a shame that my 10, soonto be 11 year old, knows more

(32:28):
about her reproductive systemthan a person my age or yours,
sandra.

Speaker 1 (32:38):
It is and that becomes because of the fact that
who her mother is is going tomake sure of.
You know what?
I'm not going to let anybodytell you anything else.
This is how this works, and soa lot of times, it rests on us,
as mothers, to actually ensurethat our children know at a very

(32:59):
early age and, please, people,let's stop saying, okay, well,
they're not old enough to learnabout this, old enough to learn
about this.
What they're not going tounderstand is we have to start
teaching our children at a veryearly age about their bodies,
about mental and physical health.
We need to actually startteaching them, because they're

(33:21):
starting younger and younger toexhibit signs and symptoms of
the fact that they were nottaught and yet they still, you
know.
So here they are being takenadvantage of because they were
not taught, and that teachingstarts at home.
That's where that teachingstarts.
That teaching starts at home,whether it's mom, whether it's

(33:43):
mom and dad, whether it'sgrandparents, whoever.
That teaching starts at home,and we have to start them young,
because we're in a time and agewhere the young ones are the
ones that are all of this stuffis starting to happen with them
and it's going to continue ifthey're not taught how anything
else.
My last question for you is thiswhat message would you share

(34:07):
with mothers?
I want to say mothers, but Iwant to ask you this because I
don't want to leave the dads outbecause the dads a lot of times
feel just as unheard, just asunseen as the mothers.
And we do have some awesomedynamic dads out here and

(34:30):
awesome dynamic men that trulycare about the health of their
woman in their life.
They truly care about thehealth of all of their children.
So what message would you leavefor both the mom and dad who
feel like they're unseen orunheard when they go through the
process of grief of an infant?

Speaker 2 (34:52):
Your community is waiting for you.
There are so many wonderfulgroups out here waiting
open-armed, ready to embrace you, ready to work with you and on
grief's highway.
And understand that what you'refeeling today may not be what
you will feel tomorrow.
If anyone would have told me 15years ago I remember my

(35:17):
grandmother used to always saytrouble don't last always.
What I'm going to say is mytwist on it.
Grief, yes, you can grieve for along period of time.
Grief yes, you can grieve for along period of time, and there

(35:46):
is something called prolongedgrief.
However, no one can tell youhow to grieve.
You can smile and still begrieving.
I just love speaking mydaughter's name, especially
today on our birth date.
Understand that you may feelreally low today, but you may
not feel that way tomorrow, andthat's fine.
I believe our children want usto live life and to enjoy a full
life.
So find the community.
If you can't find a supportgroup, reach out to me.
I'm Nneka Hall on all socialmedia sites and I look the same

(36:12):
like this.
This is me, this is actually me, and understand that.
I will tell you about 50 to 60groups that you can join today
to walk with you on grief'sjourney, to walk with you on
grief's journey.

Speaker 1 (36:29):
And please don't forget, for those of you that
are facing a grief journey, thatno one can tell you how long
you should be grieving for.
They don't have the right totell you how long you should be
grieving for.
So if you're in a situationwhere you're starting to hear
you know things such as whatNneka was saying earlier oh, you

(36:53):
can have another baby, oh, youalready have kids you should
start hearing all that negativetalk.
Just leave.
You don't have to forceyourself to be around anybody
that's going to bring you into aspace of negativity, into a
space of okay.
Well, you need to get over itright now, because they don't
know where you've been, theydon't know your journey.

(37:13):
We can look at you and try toguess what your journey is, but
we really don't know what yourjourney is.
So you have every right togrieve for as long as you want
to grieve.
However, if you're grieving andyou find yourself like this is
like okay, I want to take mylife, or you're so depressed and

(37:36):
you're so out of it because ofthat grief loss, please seek
mental health help.
Find a therapist that you cantalk to that will understand you
.
That will actually get youthrough to the next phase of it.
Prior to Nemean Nneka coming ontoday, she was talking about a

(37:57):
program, a course that she'staking in school right now that
actually, finally, has given hera name to what she's been
feeling.
Find a course, find someone inyour community that's been there
before.
But whatever you do, don't stopat the person that's saying I
can help you.
Yet they have no educationalexperience behind trying to help

(38:20):
you.
They just know that.
Okay, somebody told me I was agood speaker and I could lead
someone somewhere without havingthe education to match it.
Don't take your educationlightly.
Study up on things and becomeacclimated to what you're
learning.
With that being said, I amgoing to go ahead and close out

(38:40):
this very you know on pointdiscussion, because we needed to
hear it and we didn't need tohear it from someone that has
never, ever went through beforeCould tell us.
You know front and back whatthey're thinking, but they don't
have that lived experience andsome subjects and some topics

(39:02):
that we'll be talking about whenspeaking with Sandra L, we have
to have someone that has thatlived experience, along with the
personal experience.
Maybe it was your wife that wasgoing through it, but you're
not the one that was carryingthat baby and, like I said, as
far as a man is concerned, he isimportant, very, very important
in this whole process.

(39:23):
But men, remember, inside thatwoman was that baby that didn't
make it.
So you're a great help to us,really you are, but inside of us
, really sit down and have adeep, deep, deep discussion with
us to find out, and don't justhave it one time and say, okay,

(39:43):
well, I did it.
Have it repeatedly If you seethe woman struggling.
Have it repeatedly, becausethis is something that she's
holding on to, that she's notletting go of, and you can help
her let go of it and togetheryou can grow.
Be kind always.
It is absolutely positivelyfree.

(40:04):
You don't have to pay a pennyfor it, it's free.
It's not something thatsomebody should have to force
you to do.
You should want to, in your ownheart, feel like, okay, I need
to be kind.
You never know what thatkindness might mean to someone

(40:25):
on the other end of yourdiscussion, might mean to
someone on the other end of yourdiscussion.
If you don't know what to say,don't say anything, but be kind.
You can be kind without sayingsomething, especially if you
don't know what to say, becausesometimes what you say becomes
an argument or it becomes you'returning someone off and you

(40:51):
really don't want to do that.
Be kind always, nneka.
Do you have three things thatyou want us to leave out of here
with?

Speaker 2 (40:58):
Besides your, be kind .
I love sitting in silence withsomeone who suffered a loss.
Sitting in silence with someonewho suffered a loss, so be
silent so that the people thatyou're supporting will be heard.
And back to Sandra's be kind.

(41:20):
Kindness goes a long way,especially when a person is
feeling at their worst.

Speaker 1 (41:27):
Thank, you for having me.
Thank you, and thank you forspending your birthday with us.
Tom's appreciates you.
Happy birthday.

Speaker 2 (41:36):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (41:38):
You're welcome.

Speaker 2 (41:45):
Can't hear you, can't hear you.

Speaker 1 (41:49):
Thank you all For taking some more time to spend
with speaking with Sandra L.
We're hoping that you learnedsomething about the patient
experience when it comes down tomaternal and infant loss.
We will be back on September8th.
Have a very safe and happyLabor Day for those of you that

(42:10):
are listening to this beforeLabor Day arrives.
Thank you.