October 27, 2023 • 55 mins
From October 7, 2022
In this episode, we talk with former balanced literacy teacher and parent, Missy Purcell. She authored a blog post titled Dear Balanced Literacy Teacher.
Missy writes, “According to Nancy Young’s ladder of reading, roughly 10-15% of kids can figure out reading out with this type of instruction, but my child, who would later be diagnosed with dyslexia, would never be able to become a proficient reader with any version of balanced literacy. He, according to Young, like 85% of students, benefit from or need systematic explicit instruction that follows a scope and sequence with fidelity to become proficient readers and writers.”
We want to normalize the idea that most kids CAN learn how to read with structured literacy instruction.
Resources
- Dear Balanced Literacy Teacher
- Looking for Heroes: One Boy, One Year, 100 Letters 2nd Edition
- These resources from the International Dyslexia Association are helpful to spread the word on social media about October as Dyslexia Awareness Month!
We answer your questions about teaching reading in The Literacy 50-A Q&A Handbook for Teachers: Real-World Answers to Questions About Reading That Keep You Up at Night.
Grab free resources and episode alerts! Sign up for our email list at literacypodcast.com.
Join our community on Facebook, and follow us on Instagram, Facebook, & Twitter.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Melissa (00:00):
You're listening to Melissa and Lori Love Literacy
and today we'll be talking toMissy Purcell about a blog post
that she authored.
Dear Balanced Literacy Teacher,this is an important topic in
literacy because we want tonormalize the idea that kids can
learn how to read withstructured literacy instruction
(00:21):
instead of our current Normanclassrooms, which is that there
are struggling readers.
With structured literacyinstruction, we can cast a wider
net to reach all students.
Lori (00:34):
Welcome Teacher Friend.
I'm Lori and I'm Melissa.
We are two literacy educatorsin Baltimore.
Melissa (00:40):
We want the best for all kids and we know you do too,
Our district recently adopted anew literacy curriculum, which
meant a lot of change foreveryone, lori and I can't wait
to keep learning about literacywith you today.
Lori (00:57):
Hi everyone, welcome to Melissa and Lori Love Literacy
Literacy Podcast.
Today we can't wait to talk toa parent of a child with
dyslexia and a former balancedliteracy teacher.
Melissa (01:11):
Yeah, we have Missy Purcell here today, and she
wrote a blog post recently thatcaught our eye called Dear
Balanced Literacy Teacher, andshe, before that, was a teacher
of balanced literacy herself,and she now works to encourage
educators across the country toembrace the science of reading.
So we are so excited to haveyou here today, missy.
(01:33):
Feel free to tell us anythingelse about yourself that we
don't already know.
Missy Purcell (01:39):
Yeah, thanks for the introduction and I am super
excited to be here today.
I am indeed a former balancedliteracy teacher and could have
probably convinced anyone to useit, but I'm also a mom.
I have three boys and they areall, sadly, products of balanced
(02:00):
literacy.
That's another story foranother day.
Mary, to my wonderful husbandMark, for over 20 years, and we
also have a little puppy that'snamed Miss Comet, who's probably
sleeping close by and hopefullywon't join the podcast today.
That's right.
Lori (02:17):
We welcome all family members.
Well, thank you, missy.
I'm wondering if you could juststart us off by telling us a
little bit about your son, yourcurrent sixth grader, and his
journey learning to read.
Missy Purcell (02:32):
Yeah, gosh, I'm going to try to condense that
down into a smaller podcast.
Yeah, he, you know the youngestchild.
What kind of just assumed hewould follow the path of his
older brothers.
And, just like his olderbrothers, our house is filled
with books.
I am a former teacher, so I hadevery picture book and every
(02:56):
Eric Carle book.
You know everything that youcould find that we were.
Everything was well read, wellloved.
Literacy was just a part of ourhome.
I love reading, I love teachingreading, and so I assumed that
he would do just as well as hisbrothers.
He went to preschool, lovedpreschool, and we had a really
great preschool.
However, when he left preschool, I remember getting a letter
from his preschool teachertelling me how much they loved
(03:20):
him and they were so sad to seehim leave to go to kindergarten,
and I remember the words thatstung were we were a little
disappointed that he didn't makemore progress, and I thought
and that was really the firsttime I knew there was a problem
and then I'm looking at thispaper and he didn't know any of
his sounds for his letters.
So he had the only letter heknew was in for Matthew and that
(03:43):
was his name, so he heard itall the time, so he knew that
sound.
But that's all he knew.
And I knew that was not thesame as my older two boys.
So I took that knowledgestraight into the kindergarten
teacher and I remember hertelling me at the first
conference with fall conferencesDon't worry, they all develop
at their own pace.
He's also a little young for hisage.
(04:03):
He'll catch up.
And so I believed it then.
But I was still worried becauseI thought that's just weird.
The other two that was not myexperience and I kept hearing
that he'll catch up.
I heard that at the end ofkindergarten, first grade was a
little different.
He didn't catch up.
So, even though they weren'tworried, they put him in reading
(04:24):
recovery, which I didn't knowat that point that I knew
reading recovery as a formerteacher.
So I was excited that they weregoing to put him in a program
that was going to help him, or Ithought was going to help him
and it's one on one, like thatfeels like.
Melissa (04:37):
It's like this is great , he's getting one on one
support.
Missy Purcell (04:40):
And they make you feel so special because your
kid was selected for thisspecial program and not every
kid gets into it.
Like, which is the dirty littlesecret of reading recovery?
Right, that it's not open toeveryone, it's only open to this
little, you know, extreme groupof kids, sadly, the ones that
actually need something totallydifferent, which I didn't know.
And about week 10 of thatprogram he got, I got a letter
(05:06):
from the, from the teacher, thereading recovery teacher,
letting me know that he was kindof stalled and she asked me to
give him a pep talk and ask meif I was reading to him at home,
and so I felt a little shamedas a former teacher and as a
parent, like oh, we're not,we're not doing the right thing
and he's not making progress.
Lori (05:27):
Yeah, I'm kind of wincing as you're saying each thing
right, like the letter frompreschool, the communication
from school.
I mean I'm kind of bracingmyself for what you're about to
say because I didn't just tellby your face it's not going to
be great.
And just to hear those thingsabout your child, who I'm sure
was putting a million percenteffort out there.
Missy Purcell (05:47):
He was and what we also didn't realize, that is
that he was putting that effortin, so we were seeing symptoms
but we didn't know it.
Then, Once again, it was onemore thing we didn't know.
He started becoming obsessedwith what he wore.
He started getting action plansin first grade.
So yellow first grader wasgetting an action plan.
Coincidentally, these arebehavior plans in my, in our
(06:09):
district for behaviors in class.
They feel serious.
They're not really that big ofa deal Like the kids don't know
that, but it feels like a bigdeal because you have to go see
the administrator.
So you know he was getting.
He got an action plan for makingarmpit noises I can't even say
that with a straight face and hecouldn't write it.
(06:29):
So he had to draw a picture ofhimself making armpit noises.
That was his, his bad deed, andthen he got in trouble for that
.
But it was during reading groupand then he started getting
sick every day, especially ondictation day.
They had to write, they had todictate words and sentences and
he failed them every week and hegot big red.
I wish you know I could show you, but he got big red Ink marks
(06:51):
about his letters floating inthe air and, um, you know how to
write this and it was just.
And then it could even read theteacher's notes, right?
So, um, weirdly enough, thoughhe's getting these dictation
sheets, he's failing that inreading recovery.
He's got this writing book,that none of this in his own
handwriting.
I wish.
I thought it was weird.
It was like all the teachershandwriting and little letters
(07:12):
that he would glue, so he stillwasn't getting handwriting
instruction in this veryspecialized instruction.
I requested an SST, which inour district is a student
support team, to discuss thefact that he's in a special
intervention and it's notworking, and I was told to wait
once again, wait till the end.
Melissa (07:33):
You see, I'm wondering if you could like, just for our
audience's sake.
Well, just, some people knowthis already, Some people don't.
But just let's talk aboutyou've mentioned balance,
literacy, you probably you knowa lot about it and reading
recovery.
I'm wondering if you could justtalk about those, just just
those programs, Like not evenwith what you're sound,
experienced or anything, butjust what are the?
What are they like?
Like what is what is includedin those programs?
Missy Purcell (07:55):
Yeah, well, from just prior teaching experience,
balance literacy is a nutshell,a hybrid version of whole
language, which I didn't knowwhen I was trained.
But it was this attempt tobring balance between the two
worlds of whole language and,like a phonics only approach,
right.
So it was this, this, thismerging of the two.
(08:16):
I call it a band aid, honestly,it's my nickname for it, it's
the phonics band aid.
So when you know the wholelanguage, folks kind of back in
the late 80s kind of got calledout for having this missing
piece.
There was this attempt to put aband aid on, also to come in
alignment with some of thelegislation that was going on in
the country at that time, andso let's add what's missing.
(08:38):
But the unfortunate part tothat was that it was really just
a band aid in it.
There was nothing systematicabout it, there was nothing
explicit about it, so it wasstill dependent upon a teacher
noticing what a child wasmissing, which is hard to do in
every single guided readinggroup, right, you're only
noticing what you have, whatyou're seeing in this particular
(09:01):
book you're reading, and torespond to that.
So there's not systematic, it'sresponsive.
I say you're only fixing theproblem before you not the core
problem of we missed a lot ofskills along the way.
I need to take this kid throughSystematic scope and sequence
so that they can learn all theseskills.
And they and I know theylearned them because I taught
(09:24):
them with direct instruction andso there was nothing like that
in a balance literacy classroom.
When I taught, I had a minilesson every day.
I had my beautiful anchorcharts hanging everywhere, which
is probably so overwhelming Iwas going to go back and
apologize to everyone, but youknow so.
(09:45):
And then you have time for themto work independently while
you're pulling kids in groupsand you're working either in
guided reading or maybeconferences if you're doing
writing time.
But so you're not getting evenevery kid every day.
You're getting a smallpercentage, and then it's so
rushed that there I often foundthat when I was doing kind of
reading, when I the part thatmattered most, the phonics part,
(10:07):
was so rushed and so limited tothe responsive teaching that I
was, I always felt like I wasmissing something too and that
the kids that needed to getbetter weren't getting better.
And then reading recovery andit's just I like to call it a
step child about literacy, butreally I kind of think it might
(10:28):
have existed somewhere in therealm first, and then some of
these other programs grew out ofit, but it's.
It's just that the whole ideathat I can take a kid in a
smaller setting and do more ofthe same, I can give them more
cues, you know, I can help themlook at the pictures more, I can
cue them to the first letterand I can kind of let them look
(10:49):
at the context clues and see ifthey can figure the words out.
It turned reading into aguessing game, which for Matthew
was detrimental because readingreally was a game of
substituting and guessing orskipping.
So he was either skipping,substituting or just flat out
guessing what was in front ofhim and which comes from those
(11:09):
cues that are found in both ofthose programs.
Lori (11:13):
What I'm hearing you say, just to recap, is that balance
literacy held him back fromreading by guessing, by looking
at the pictures, by looking atthe first letters, and then he
would guess.
The rest of the word he wouldskip, he would substitute words.
Missy Purcell (11:26):
Anything you want to add to that, I mean that is
100% exactly his experience, andthat the sad part of it is that
I mean, our, our district wasis a I used to call us the
balance literacy empire, right,and so it was everywhere.
I didn't matter if you were in,you know, tier one, tier two or
three, you were going to getsome version of balance literacy
(11:48):
.
So, from Matthew, as hecontinued to struggle, his
experience was let me put him inmore of the same methodology of
instruction and let's see if itworks this time which is not
the definition of insanity.
Lori (12:00):
Yeah, doing the same thing .
Yes, that isn't working.
Melissa (12:05):
Yeah, more of it to even more, more One on one more,
more, more, more.
Missy Purcell (12:11):
And I would even say to the very program, the
resources our district uses.
Font uses font is a panel whichis a program designed to
support balance literacy, andthe very program itself kept the
teachers, ironically, fromseeing where he was struggling,
even though it was supposed tobe responsive.
(12:32):
We had all of these runningrecords, right.
They did a BAS every year andhe was zigzagging all over the
place.
There was some progress that hewas not progressing and and
even from year to year, like oneteacher would say he was a
level H and the next teacherwould say he was a level D, and
(12:53):
I thought, gosh, how can youlike, not, how can you be able
to read and then not be able toread that was one of my first
clues is like even the veryassessment is somehow
handicapping our teachers fromknowing that this isn't working.
Melissa (13:06):
Yeah, I think that's a really good point.
When we talk to teachers whohave moved from a balance
literacy to systemic phonicsinstruction, they, they
Systematic, sorry, and you knowthat that's what they actually
say.
They're like oh my gosh, now Ican see, I see where, where
their gaps are, I see what theyneed, I can help them get what
they need and and we can keepmoving.
Before it was for the teachersa guessing game of where the
(13:27):
students were, just like it wasa guessing game for the students
when they were reading Rightright, it's just a constant
series of everyone really notknowing where we were headed.
Yeah, yeah, just kind ofeveryone fumbling.
Yeah, so you're a son, missy,we know this already, but
Eventually was diagnosed withdyslexia.
(13:49):
Somewhere in this journey canyou tell, like when that
happened?
How did that?
Missy Purcell (13:56):
happen.
Yes, so fast forward to secondgrade.
He has exited reading recovery.
We're still not reading ongrade level.
Now we're in second grade.
He does get an assessment fromthe school and they, although
they won't diagnose, they diddetect In the screen the testing
(14:16):
that they did a full,comprehensive psychological
educational exam, that he had anSLD in reading, and I was kind
of pulled to the side and saidmost likely dyslexia.
But we don't say that word here,you know, so it's like the bad
naughty word at school.
So he was, was semi diagnosed,I guess you would say at least
(14:37):
flagged at that point, and sadly, though, that didn't equal
anything different from him.
And he was actually pulled outof his regular a classroom for
our language arts at that pointto go into what was called a
resource classroom when I laterlearned there were 24 students.
There were more in that roomthan his regular a classroom and
, yes, that's like a whole classof students itself.
(14:59):
Yes, and this was tier three orfour, right special education.
And he's getting LLI, and whichis this, you know, remediation
of fontanis.
And now it's another program.
It's balanced literacy at itsheart.
I was told that it was designedfor kids with dyslexia by the
teacher when I questioned so atthis point I'm starting to wake
(15:20):
up and he wasn't reallyofficially diagnosed, though,
until fourth grade, so it wouldbe two more years of him being
in a school setting, gettingbalanced literacy, even in the
special ed setting, before hewas tested privately and
diagnosed, and at that point thesad part was we had now
standardized test that showedthat he had regressed in almost
(15:44):
every single area, from thattest in a 2019 to the one done
two years later.
So he had totally regressed.
And so there was.
We had hard evidence that, eventhough their paperwork said
progressing as expected everysingle nine weeks, he was not.
In fact, he was actuallydrowning.
And I think the hardest part forme I always get a little.
(16:07):
I'll try not to be, I'm gonnatry to keep it together today,
but the hardest part for me andthat was there was a social
emotional screener, and he toldthe psychologist that His
greatest goal in life was tolearn to read, and this was a
fourth grader, and for me thatwas so I thought something's not
(16:30):
right with what I know to beright.
I loved what I did as a teacherand I think my classroom was a
happy, joyful place, because I'mjust that kind of person and I
do think, hopefully, kids feltsafe in my room.
They certainly didn't get whatthey needed because I was
staring at a child who is theproduct of this and he was not
proficient.
(16:50):
Not only was he not proficient,he was regressing and no one
knew it.
No one knew it and that's whatwas always so perplexing to me
was that bounce literacy.
You know really, champions,that we're responsive.
We're responsive.
You gotta know the kid andrespond.
Well, we have five years toknow this kid.
He been the same school forfive years and he didn't know
(17:13):
how to read and no one knew it.
That test was shocking toeveryone in the room and I think
, even the school for thatmeeting.
We had to discuss those in that.
You know the private evaluationthere was.
It was silent, no one could sayanything because the number
spoke for themselves.
Melissa (17:33):
It's heartbreaking.
Lori (17:34):
It is, I'm well first.
Thank you for sharing that.
I'm sure that is really hard togo back and think about, but
hopefully your story is helpingeducators out there and and
parents out there listening andI'm wondering if we can turn a
little bit to what he actuallydid need and really, what do
(17:55):
most students actually need?
He might share that with us.
Missy Purcell (17:58):
Yeah, well, I learned during this process.
I started investigating, that'swhat I do and I'm really
stressed.
I turn it to this super like.
Let me look this up.
Lori (18:10):
Let me Google that.
Right, I'm gonna be like a typeA thing.
Missy Purcell (18:15):
Seriously, I started joining these Facebook
groups about anything withdyslexia, whether it be
nationwide or locally, or Istarted, you know, when I was in
these groups.
I found these amazing peoplethat I later learned were called
advocates, and and then Ilearned through that about this
whole world, this term that keptcoming up, the science of
(18:37):
reading and structured literacy.
And then I'm just reading andreading and I found this one
blog that compare the two and Ithought, oh my gosh, like I was
wrong.
And there's a moment as ateacher especially when you care
so much about people's kidswhere you're like they went
(18:59):
through my years of classroomand I was a fourth and fifth
grade teacher, so I was kind oflike a last hope before middle
school, right, and they didn'tget what they needed.
They left, they came in notreading and they left not
reading.
And I learned that Matthewdidn't need that anymore than
those kids needed it.
He needed something calledstructured literacy, which I
(19:21):
call like the.
It's like the, it's like a oh,my brain just stopped working An
antinem, right, yeah, there wego.
It's going to antinem for forbalanced literacy.
So when people try to blend itagain like you can't, because
it's literally the opposite.
It literally is not connectedat all.
You almost have to deconstructwhat you know about literacy.
(19:44):
You have to break it down andsay that right now I'm going to
put it over here in a corner andlet me just see what this is.
And I learned that it wasexplicit.
That means someone directlyteaches my kid what he needs to
know and they follow a scope andsequence.
I learned the term systematicphonics, which was different
than balanced literacy, becausethat's analytical phonics.
(20:05):
That's where I look and see andI teach you what I notice you
don't know.
And systematic was that I'mgoing to test you on all these
skills and then I'm going tosystematically walk you through
all of them to make sure you'vemastered them.
Lori (20:17):
Can I just add one thing right here?
It is the difference betweenlooking at the child in front of
you and then bringing in the,let's say, phonics in this case.
Right, then, bringing in thephonics rather than knowing this
is what kids need to know toread and then teaching the
students.
So it's a, it's knowing thescience first and then applying
(20:39):
it to your students in asystematic, structure way and
then filling in gaps from there,versus looking at a child which
, to be honest, as a formerprimary teacher, is so much more
manageable.
Missy Purcell (20:52):
Yeah, that's so daunting I need to know the
science.
Lori (20:55):
And then I can teach students in a systematic way,
and then I need to fill in smallgaps, versus let me see what 30
kids need to know sitting infront of me and they all need
something different Like I'mjust setting myself up for
failure.
Melissa (21:10):
That's why I just want to say that and like Missy said
you probably have like 20minutes to do that with each
group of kids Right?
Missy Purcell (21:19):
Not even the right time or enough time, or
yeah, and it's like oh no, butlike, even just to piggyback,
you've got 28 kids too.
Or one year I had 32, which isterrible, but 100%.
And I remember getting all thatdata at the beginning of the
year and thinking what do I dowith all this, especially when
it was a little bit hard toswallow data.
(21:39):
Like I've got kids who aren'treading on grade level in the
fifth grade and I've got to getthem to be proficient readers
before they go to middle school.
You're right.
Yeah, it's like you try to playthe game without knowing the
rules, Right, so you're justkind of all you're doing all
these things for trying tofigure it out.
And if you just know how to doit to begin with, you could have
(22:01):
had the systematic approach toit.
And Matthew needed that.
All kids need it because itensures that all kids get a
strong foundation in the skillsor the code, the English
language.
They get all of that.
But dyslexic kids need it times100.
They need more repetition andmore time to review and reverse
(22:22):
drills and someone who's reallykind of approaching their
learning from a diagnosticapproach.
But I think that a kid like mykid and many other dyslexic kids
, if they had gotten afoundation of structured
literacy in those early years,the need for such intense
remediation later in life wouldnot be there, because they would
(22:44):
have a better foundation tostart with.
And when you get a kid likemine, who's had five years of
balanced literacy and finallystumbles into like real
structured literacy with ahighly trained teacher, you know
he made, he's making progress,but it's slow and it is hard and
(23:04):
frustrating and it didn't haveto be that way for him and so
many others.
Melissa (23:10):
It seems like we're just doing such a disservice to
our students and to parents.
Lori (23:16):
Well, and families and communities, and I mean honestly
educators too.
Missy Purcell (23:22):
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
When I met with Matthew'sfourth grade teacher, this was
during the COVID year, right,this is 2020.
And I went in and I wanted tomeet because I wanted to see
they were piloting Wilson, whichis an OG structured literacy
approach, and I wanted to see ifMatthew was going to be in that
.
And she said no, I only haveLLI and I'm not trained to work
(23:46):
with kids with dyslexia.
This was the special ed teacher.
Lori (23:50):
So you know that's great.
I know it breaks my heart.
Missy Purcell (23:54):
Yeah, and I thought and I said well, what is
Matthew doing in your class?
You know like and not to bemean to her, because she was a
lovely person and I think shewanted to help my kid, but she
did not have what she needed tohelp my kid.
So that's not fair to her, it'snot fair to Matthew.
Lori (24:10):
Right, well, and there's so many, oh sorry, there's so
many programs out there Like howdo we know what's what?
Sorry, I'm going to go ahead.
Melissa (24:17):
No, no, I was just going to back up a little bit
because you know you mentionedthat what he needed was the
structured literacy and thatteacher had structured literacy
but wasn't, you know, giving itto your student who had dyslexia
.
Like, I just want to make surefor our audience we're really
clear.
Like is the structured literacyall that?
A student with dyslexia?
(24:37):
Not all, but is that mostlywhat a student with dyslexia
needs to meet their needs?
Or or?
Or is it more than that, or isit beyond just the structure of
literacy?
Missy Purcell (24:48):
I think it needs to come with a highly trained
teacher.
That's something that I reallyreally talk a lot about when I
talk to people about making thischange is that you've got to
train the teachers.
The program the OG program thatyou choose, the structure
literacy program that you choose, is great and the hands of an
untrained teacher is going to.
(25:10):
I think there's a tendency, ifwe don't train our teachers, for
them to keep blending and tolean into what's comfortable and
what they know.
So I think I think there's atendency there where we can
really do some harm meaningfulwe mean well, but we can still
do some harm.
The teacher is our greatestresource, literally, and what
(25:30):
they know and how they can takethose tools.
I've watched Matthew's privatetutor teach him how to read with
a whiteboard and a dry racemarker.
She and I know she has a scopeand sequence hidden somewhere
that I didn't know about, butbut she's following, but she's
just, you know, doing this thingand it's amazing and it works.
And so she didn't have somefancy manual or book.
(25:53):
She had a very simple tool inher hand, but what she did have
was this knowledge of how thebrain learns to read.
That's what she had.
Melissa (26:03):
Right.
And it reminds me of when wehad Angie Hanlon on Lori who
talked about those repetitionsright and know it.
You know, in the hands of ateacher who might not know they
might do it twice and say, oh,they're just still not getting
it.
Versus like, if you do know,you know that they might just
need this a few more times,maybe a lot more.
Lori (26:21):
Yeah, maybe 100 more times .
Missy Purcell (26:24):
Yes, we're going to keep going until we get it,
especially when you consider akid who's coming out of a
balanced literacy environmentwho has depended upon cues Right
and they're, and it's justhardwired into them to skip and
substitute, which was my son'sproblem.
He was a master at substitutingand skipping and an untrained
eye he could look like he waskeeping up.
Lori (26:47):
It is very tricky.
Yes, I mean you.
Yeah, once you learn to see it,you can see it.
So you can see themsubstituting and they're just
guessing.
But it is so obvious once youknow they are guessing based on
that first letter.
Missy Purcell (27:02):
Yes, yes, yes, because I remember there were a
couple of pivotal moments inthis awakening for me.
So I kind of started figuringout these groups, right, and I'm
researching, I'm finding outthe structure of literacy,
science of reading, I'm orderingbooks, I'm just, you know, I'm
reading chapters and you know,and I'm asking questions, and
(27:26):
and then I started emailing theschool hey, what are you using
to teach Matthew?
And I was told oh, lly, becauseit's great for comprehension,
and we're going to use Wilson onthe side to teach him some
phonics.
Lori (27:41):
So they were.
You know what I think aboutthat, you know, and like you
have a fraction and it's liketwo over two, it's like a whole
number, right, it crosses itselfout.
Yes, yes, yes, and I'm like thenot anything helpful.
Yes, and you're doing somethingkind of helpful, but it doesn't
really matter.
Yeah, still doing things thataren't helpful, and then the
(28:04):
kids getting a complete mixedmessage and I think that it
really actually works.
Missy Purcell (28:08):
No, it doesn't.
Because there's such anemphasis on comprehension,
especially in the upper grades,that when a child is missing
foundational skills, the otherpart of you know if you're
familiar with the reading right,but if you're, if they're
missing those foundationalskills, we're putting the cart
before the horse when we try tofocus on comprehension so much.
Yes, we can focus on listening,comprehension through some
(28:30):
great read allows in a richliterature environment, which
environment which we should haveas teachers.
But if we're putting such anemphasis on comprehension and
we're totally ignoring thesepoor decoding skills in the
background that are leading to alack of comprehension, then we
are doing the child of theservice, also the teachers,
(28:51):
because there's a false sense ofof achievement and success.
That's not there.
And I heard it, I heard it overand over from so many teachers,
like I'm doing this and this,I'm blending this and this, and
I kept saying but this is acomprehensive program over here
it really does work, likethere's all these really smart
people who researched it andstudied it and they know it
(29:12):
works and they've seen it workand I think we should just do
all 10 parts of this lesson.
And they constantly keptblending and I at one point said
this is harming my kid, becauseduring the pandemic he was
digital and I was watching.
This was the special ed, youknow, remediation class and it
was just basically the first 20days of reading workshop from
(29:35):
the Fontainele book, where youteach kids that reading is
thinking I can.
I can recite those lessonsbecause I taught them so much.
And I was like whoa, wait aminute, like his goals for
decoding and fluency andaccuracy.
And then I started asking, likewhat decoding goals are you
working on?
Which ones is he missing?
(29:56):
And I couldn't get the answers.
So I started seeing rightbefore me this is not working
and I'd see him substitute andskip and be praised for reading
so good.
When he did a running record,he would be out of the way.
I'm so proud of you, you'vecome so far.
And I thought, no, he's justlearned to guess and play the
(30:17):
system.
He's been programmed to usethese cues and, yeah, I guess if
you taught him the cues andhe's doing that, he actually is
doing what you're looking for.
But that's not equaling aproficient reader, because what
they couldn't see is that he wasreading, his legs were shaking
uncontrollably, which I now knowwas anxiety, and as soon as the
(30:37):
class ended he'd shut thecomputer down and have a
complete meltdown, justoverwhelmed with all this
information, or had teacherscall me and say he knew this.
This morning we were working onthese word patterns but when I
tested him later in the day hedidn't know it and that was this
great mystery to them and I waslike that's called dyslexia and
(30:58):
it means it's not mapped in hisbrain.
And I didn't have a degree inthis.
This was just me reading allthese books and just educating
myself on what my kid needed.
So yeah, it was an eye-openingyear and it just ignited in me
this passion to be.
(31:19):
What would I want someone totell me if I was still in the
classroom?
What would help me change fromwhat I thought was the best way
to what I now know right infront of me is really actually
hurting kids.
Lori (31:35):
And you wrote about this in your blog.
Would you mind sharing thatwith our listeners?
You've mentioned four points.
Missy Purcell (31:41):
Yeah, and my whole.
The reason I talk a lot aboutthis is that I want teachers to
feel supported and have an easyway to move from where they are
to what's next.
And even if you take one stepin the right direction, you're
taking a step to help a kid beless anxious, to be less
overwhelmed and to move towardproficiency.
(32:01):
And some of these things arepretty easy to do.
It's kind of what I did in thisprocess.
I think the first one is listento stories of failure.
I am one of thousands ofparents of a kid like Matthew.
That was shocking to me.
I started listening to parents.
I found groups you knowdecoding to support groups and
(32:24):
decoding advocacy groups and ourstories are eerily the same.
I mean waiting for them to fail, years of interventions that
did not work and it's almostlike in some circles it's easy
to pretend like we don't existand that this isn't happening or
that we're rare, like she'sjust the exception because she's
(32:47):
that mom.
Lori (32:48):
That's what I was going to say.
You kind of end up being anudge, like being oh well, here
comes that mom.
And really you're not beingthat mom.
You're just trying to get whatyou need for your not only for
your kid, but for lots of otherkids who maybe don't have
parents, who have thatinformation or maybe who are
acting on other ways and who arepresenting in other ways.
(33:11):
Right, they're misdiagnosed.
I would say, yeah, understood.
Missy Purcell (33:16):
Yeah, a lot of kids with dyslexia and reading
struggles, especially if they'reboys, or even some of our
minority children and black orbrown friends.
We focus on what they are doingand how they're acting in the
classroom versus what's going oninside the child and that those
behaviors might actually becommunication of.
(33:37):
I need help, I need you toteach me how to read.
I need you to teach me how todo this because I'm not getting
it the way you're teaching me.
And I mean I know with my ownchild there was a focus on
behavior action plans, you know,and then his own behaviors if
I'm sick and then he becameobsessed with what he was
wearing.
So we had a lot of behaviors andI learned that so many kids are
(34:01):
just like Matthew where andthey have been delayed the right
to read for years, and it's nowonder that by the time they're
in third, fourth and fifth gradethat they're so frustrated Kids
biting their fingers to thepoint of bleeding and acting out
in rage or shutting downcompletely.
(34:21):
It looks, you're right, itlooks so different for every kid
, but it's there nonetheless.
And if you heard just a few ofour stories, I think that
there's an empathy that'screated there.
That is hard to ignore and Ithink can become a catalyst for
let me find out more, let me seehow that happens.
(34:43):
And do I have any Matthews inmy room?
The chances are you do, becauseyou know, some studies say that
as many as 20% of our kids havedyslexia, and so at least one
in five in every classroom is inthis, but they're often not
identified and they're silentlystruggling.
Melissa (35:01):
I was going to say that .
And see, and not only that,right, there's students who
aren't identified as dyslexic,right?
So you think, oh, this is justa rare thing, only a few of kids
have dyslexia, but actuallymore probably do that aren't
identified.
But then you also have a wholegroup of students who may or may
not have dyslexia.
Regardless whether they do ordon't, or are on some kind of
like spectrum of the dyslexiaspectrum, they are struggling to
(35:26):
read right.
We know from nationwide datathat what a third of our
students across the nation arereading proficiently.
So you know you have even morestudents who are just not
getting what they need in theclassroom.
So there's stories of failurethat go, you know, beyond just
dyslexia and really hit probablya majority of students and
(35:47):
families.
Missy Purcell (35:49):
Yeah, I mean this supersedes dyslexia for sure.
I mean I have three kids I liketo say my three boys kind of
fit on the Nancy Young's readingyou know reading ladder.
I have a top kid who justseemed to magically learn to
read.
He's just I don't know, I don'teven know how that happened.
I actually thought I was sogood at what I was doing that it
(36:11):
was me right.
I read him so much and I didall the things right and he just
magically learned to read.
And then I have a middle childwho's actually the middle of the
ladder.
He needed direct instructionand never got it.
And now we're seeing that playout a lot.
He's learning a second languagein the ninth grade and he's
struggling because he doesn'tknow some of the basic nuts and
bolts of the English language.
(36:32):
He doesn't know what nouns andverbs are in the ninth grade, or
articles, and so when he'strying to conjugate those into a
second language he's runninginto some barriers.
So I mean he fits very muchinto the middle.
He needed this.
You can see it very much in hiswriting and his spelling.
And then my youngest falls intothat bottom where he has to
(36:53):
have it.
It's not negotiable.
So, yeah, this affects so manykids, which is why this
conversation used to happenoutside of the special ed
setting, and it's why everyteacher needs to get
professional development in thisarea, so that, even across
content areas, we all have tohold our piece of the reading
and writing instruction,regardless of whether this is
(37:14):
our primary subject that weteach, and I'm totally biased,
but when I took letters training, I was just like I think every
single teacher, no matter gradelevel, content area.
Melissa (37:24):
I think every single teacher should get this.
I think they should get it incollege, but it's a different so
far.
Missy Purcell (37:31):
That's a different podcast.
Yes, yes.
Lori (37:37):
All right.
So step one is listen to thestories of failure.
Yes, and I think you kind ofalluded to your step two as well
.
Missy Purcell (37:44):
Yes, Join a community of learners.
I mean, that's what I did.
You know, we are somewhat theproduct of our environment.
So I, you know you mentionededucation.
I went to the University ofGeorgia and my entire
educational experience from mydegrees were in balanced
literacy I was Lucy Calkins andStephanie Harvey and Nancy
(38:07):
Atwell, because I had a kind ofsome upper, you know, grade
experience, and so all of thegreats at that time were who
influenced me.
Our school when I moved toGwinnett County that's my
district that I taught in andstill live in and we are about
literacy so we moved intoFonteson Pnell, actually got to
attend a training with LucyCalkins, you know, and so we
(38:32):
were very much for reading andwriting tapped into that.
Melissa (38:36):
So those were my influencers, those were the
books I read, and when everyonearound you speaking that
language, then why would youeven think?
Yeah, yeah.
Missy Purcell (38:44):
There's a different way.
But you know, I had my you know, fmp Bible.
I called it, it was my guidedreading book and I had all these
things.
In the middle of all this I hadattended a professional
development one summer that I'mreading it and I was like this
is all structured literacy.
There was this lady in ourstate that provided these
(39:04):
reading instruction,professional developments, and I
had written all these notes,even like about dyslexia, and
the word decoding was there,which I didn't know for my
college instruction.
I didn't know that word.
I called it, word calling whichI now know is a sleight of hand
for kind of ignoring that.
But anyway, I, you know, I wasshocked because I thought this
(39:26):
was all right in front of me.
But here's why it's important tojoin a community of learners.
It was there and I got greattraining.
I went back to my school andthat was not anywhere on my
school setting.
It wasn't.
No one was speaking thatlanguage.
There was no place for me toimplement it or no support, no
one to help guide me in theprocess.
And so joining a community oflearners is huge, to start
(39:51):
reading some books.
I think the Dyslexia Advocatewas one book that I read and
that was a game changer for meand just join some community
books, facebook pages, startreading if you're really into
some really hard stuff, to readsome of the cognitive scientists
(40:11):
reports.
And I think once you startrealizing and finding that there
are some friends in this worldand they're on the same journey
as you, it changes the gamebecause you now feel like you're
not one like an island at yourschool.
You have a community and ifyou're frustrated at your school
(40:32):
, take it to the community andshare with them and you're going
to find a ton of support inthose groups just to cheer you
on as you learn.
Melissa (40:40):
Yeah, I think we've seen that on social media, both
our own social media.
We've seen it.
But you know the science ofreading what I should have
learned in college Facebook,that one huge one that you see
it all the time of like you know, I'm the only person at my
school, but thank goodness I'mhere and learning.
Yes, yes it makes a bigdifference.
Lori (41:00):
Yeah, well, speaking of that, melissa, I think like I'm
the only one at my school andI'm someone who knows about this
, and I think that that personwould be aligned to Missy's
third point, which would beadvocate for change in your
district or even in your school.
Right, like small steps matter.
Missy Purcell (41:18):
Yeah, yeah, this is huge because I want teachers
to know that I'm, I'm, champ,I'm, I'm, I'm cheering for you
that's the word.
I'm cheering for you, but thatI know it's easy to feel like
sometimes in this and what wecall the reading wars, that
you're kind of a casualty oryou're being attacked, but I
feel like we're not going tomake any progress if we continue
(41:42):
down that path.
We've got to find a way to cometogether and talk and get some
common ground.
And then when you are thatperson who has finally had a
kind of a turnaround, right, andyou now see your eyes are
opened, I call it like yoursolid appall moment, right.
But when you see, oh, mygoodness, this is so different
(42:03):
and this is so critical and Iwant to move toward this and I'm
embracing this, start beingthat voice of change in your
environment we have we are in mydistrict this is kind of
exciting where we're beginningto make this change right.
So this past year, I think, wemet with some of the district
(42:23):
leaders and we proposed whatthis would look like.
Surprisingly, they had theirown plan already after a lot of
conversations.
That was very similar to whatwe thought would be the perfect
world for change and all theteachers over the summer had
their first introductory courseinto OG just pure Orton,
gillingham, and and they're allnow moving into a letters
(42:45):
training.
And of course, there's a lot ofchatter online and the teacher
groups of you know more trainingand this.
I'm overwhelmed already.
I have too many kids.
This is a hard time to teach.
This is post pandemic oractually we're still in the
middle of it, and so all that tosay, it's easy for people to
(43:06):
get negative and for this to gooff the rails before it even
gets going in the rightdirection.
So if you have already made thatchange and you're one of those
teachers, be the voice ofpositivity, be the voice that's
listening, that hears and kindof then re explains it in the
way that they can hear it, andchampion for a full, hard right
(43:28):
turn in the opposite directionand not a reblending, because
that's my biggest fear is that,in order to pacify some of the
uncomfortable tensions, thatwe're going to try to keep
reblending, and that is notgoing to work.
We've been doing that fordecades.
It's time to make a hard turnand embrace a new way to teach.
I took a.
(43:48):
I did the read three, the read360 from Tennessee, the first
level of training that all theteachers were getting, which is
kind of cool.
If you're in that state whoyou're doing great things.
But one of the questions to getmy final certification was what
I would do if I was like at thelunch table and people were
speaking negatively about thescience of reading.
Melissa (44:08):
And I thought right, I thought they get it.
Missy Purcell (44:11):
They get it because they realize the power
of the voice from within, and soif you are someone who's made
that change, you can be thatpower.
Show up at your board meetings.
We, a group of teachers andformer teachers and parents,
speak almost monthly at ourboard meetings, our board of
education meetings, and teachersare joining man.
Your voice is critical in thosespaces.
When you get up and you saywhat we're saying and you're on
(44:33):
the ground floor, the districtleaders listen and they listen
to these teachers and I thinkthat's one of the biggest
reasons this began to change isthat we came together to make
the change, versus fightingagainst each other.
So that's a huge change thatyou can make.
Melissa (44:47):
I mean it's such a good point.
Change is so hard but, like yousaid, you can't just, we can't
just keep putting bandaids on it, like we have to really make a
change.
But change is hard, so we allhave to be in it together.
Lori (45:02):
Yeah, so good, and I really love your last and your
final point.
Can I read it and then I'll letyou elaborate on it?
I get goose bumps because itshould be the norm right.
Expect every kid to learn toread.
That's it.
Expect every kid should learnto read and not the other way
(45:22):
around, like I just think.
I remember being again aprimary teacher, a fifth grade
teacher, and thinking of courseI'll have struggling students
when it be incredible world ifthe norm was.
Of course most of my kids canread.
Like that should be the thought, right, and I think that that's
what we're stepping into.
Missy Purcell (45:41):
Yeah, I mean gosh , what a game changer if every
teacher left college, or if thatwas the vision statement that
was cast at the beginning ofevery school year expect every
kid to learn to read and knowthe part you play and making
that happen.
And I think the initial successin that is that teachers have
to believe that that's possible.
And we have studies.
(46:04):
The National Institute ofHealth tells us that, you know,
95% of students have thecognitive ability to learn to
read.
So chances are every kid inyour classroom can learn to read
.
And we for so long me included,I accepted failure.
I wasn't happy with it, Iwasn't.
I remember having bigconversations with my principal
(46:26):
about how the fact that I wasgiving kids A's in reading but
they were in fifth grade readingon a second grade reading level
, and something felt weird aboutthat because I was
communicating I get that too,right.
I was communicating to the nextyear's teacher that I had a
proficient reader, right?
But I didn't.
And you know I was like can welike have truth in grading here?
(46:49):
Can their reading level drivetheir grade?
And then it was all the hellwe're going to.
You know that was not a goodthing and thankfully, there's a
whole nother pocket, yeah, butbut you know, if we, if we
believe, not only believe thatthey can read because we have
evidence, we have studies thatshow us that that is true, but
(47:09):
then we know what to do becausewe have been highly trained,
which goes back to the priorpoints, Then we can walk in
confidently every year knowingthat I am ready to teach the
kids that have entered in mydoor and I also.
I just feel so strongly aboutthis.
But my son shouldn't be aunicorn in this world of trying
(47:33):
to make sure that every kid canread.
Every kid deserves the chanceto read, regardless of how they
arrive at our classroom doors.
I don't know what their priorknowledge is, I don't know what
they've been exposed to, whattheir home life is like, if
they've gone on a thousand trips, if someone read to them, if
they happen to have the rightteachers.
(47:54):
That you're before me.
But I do know what's before meIf that kid can't read.
If I'm equipped with greatteaching skills that are aligned
with science, that areevidence-based to produce
proficient readers, I know thatI have an opportunity that year
to move that kid towardproficiency.
(48:14):
And my child is super luckythis past year he was afforded
structural literacy all day,Even his math and social studies
and science and his even hisconnections.
Teachers are all trained atOrton-Gillingham and he learned
to read In one year, one year.
(48:37):
It took five years to get there.
That could have happened inkindergarten.
He had the ability all along.
You guys have teachers if kidsin your classrooms every year
who are sitting there waitingfor you to know how to teach
them and to move them there.
It is possible.
So let that be your mantra thisyear that every kid can learn
(49:00):
to read.
And I want to pursue trainingor take the training I've been
privileged to get and give it toevery kid in front of me.
That's the best skill you cangive every kid because it
affects every part of theirfuture life, Absolutely.
Melissa (49:17):
Well, that felt like a mic drop moment it did.
Lori (49:22):
We're so glad that you wrote this blog.
We're so glad that we connectedwith you about it.
Thank you for your passion andeverything that you're doing for
your own child and also forchildren all across this world
that need this message to getinto their classrooms and
schools and districts.
So thank you.
Melissa (49:42):
And understanding what the teachers are experiencing,
to know that it's notnecessarily an easy road to make
these changes, but it'spossible.
Yes, unnecessary yes, yes.
Missy Purcell (49:55):
Well, go ahead, missy.
Well, I just want to say thankyou to you, but also the
teachers that are listening,because I want you to know that
there are those of us in thetrenches who are advocating hard
for change, but we really areyour cheerleaders and we want to
work together.
We want to be kind of thosebridge builders, because
together we are so much strongerand together we can really
(50:17):
ensure that every kid can read.
Melissa (50:21):
Absolutely, that's true .
Well, we're almost out of timeand I want to make sure, before
we wrap up, we get to ask yousome of the fun questions.
So hard left turn for us tosome fun questions, if that's
okay?
Lori (50:34):
Yes, yes, all right.
The first question is these arejust quick response questions.
What do you love to read?
Missy Purcell (50:42):
Gosh, I love to read just about everything.
I mean ironically, I mean I'llread a cereal box if it's in
front of me.
That was that kid.
But I'm reading.
I mean right now I'm readingLooking for Heroes, which is a
book about a kid who wroteletters to dyslexic people so
that he could learn how theybecame successful.
So that's great.
But then I also love a goodhistorical fiction, a good
(51:05):
trashy beach novel.
Melissa (51:09):
So, who does it yes.
Lori (51:12):
Oh my gosh, I'm going to make sure I link that.
I'm linking it right now in ourshow notes.
Melissa (51:16):
I was like put that in my shopping cart.
All right, what do you love towatch?
Missy Purcell (51:22):
Gosh.
Right now I'm watching, or Ijust finished watching, like the
first few series of a newseries called Bad Sisters.
It's on Apple TV and I wouldhighly recommend it if you loved
Desperate Housewives, oh mygosh yeah.
It's not exactly like that, butit has that underlying theme,
that feel of all these layers,of there's a lot going on with
(51:46):
all the, all the sisters.
And they got everything fromlike affairs to murder to just
narcissistic behavior, tomystery detective.
I mean it's just all over theplace.
It's great it takes place, Ithink, maybe in Ireland or
Britain or England, so they havea little bit of an accent which
always appreciates.
Melissa (52:04):
So oh, yes, yeah, I need to turn my clothes
captioning on though for that.
Lori (52:08):
Yes, yes, follow along For sure, build your fluency while
you watch.
Yes, yes, okay, what do youlove to listen to?
Missy Purcell (52:20):
A podcast I mean, but I have a wide variety to.
I mean I listen to you guys,obviously, and I love the
Science of Reading podcast, butI mean on a personal level I got
into, I started listening to DrDeath a few years ago, which is
that terrible doctor that youknow paralyzed so much people in
Texas is awful, but that led itto a whole series of just
(52:41):
murder mystery podcasts.
Lori (52:44):
Weird things.
I get that.
It like dominoes and you'resuddenly like I don't know.
I'm listening to a weird murderin.
Missy Purcell (52:49):
North Carolina and like a family.
Lori (52:52):
I think, yeah, I'm with you, I do the same thing.
Missy Purcell (52:55):
Yeah, yeah.
So yeah, I'm pretty eclectic.
I will literally, I mean Ithink I also listen to like the
history of tequila and like sothat's very important.
I totally get that I think mostteachers would probably approve
of that one.
Melissa (53:12):
All right.
Last question why do you dowhat you love for education, and
specifically literacy?
Missy Purcell (53:19):
Yeah, Because I I think I said this earlier, but
I'm going to just repeat it Iwant Matthew's story to not be
unique and I desperately want itto not be repeated.
And we have a solution, and Iwant that word to get out and I
think the more people that knowit, the less chances of his
story being repeated we want tocreate I've said this before in
(53:41):
another blog, but there's thatwhole term of the Matthew effect
and but I want to rewrite thatand let the effect be that every
kid learns to read, that wedon't keep widening that gap.
So that's what pushes me Allthe kids left behind who still
aren't getting what they need.
Melissa (54:00):
Absolutely, and there are a lot of them, so I have
work to do.
Lori (54:06):
Yeah, lots of work.
Well then, we'll keep.
We'll keep elevating storieslike yours.
So thank you so much, and we'rejust so glad that you're here
with us and you keep writingyour blog, and please stay in
touch.
Missy Purcell (54:16):
Yeah Well, thank you guys for elevating our
voices.
And just literacy.
You guys are I said thisearlier but you're impacting
kids in ways you'll never know,so thank you.
Lori (54:27):
Well, thank you.
Melissa (54:28):
Thank you.
Lori (54:32):
Thanks for listening.
Literacy lovers, we release anew podcast episode every Friday
.
Sign up to stay connected withus at literacypodcastcom.
Melissa (54:43):
We're excited to create a space for community
discussion about our podcast.
We want to connect with ourlisteners and support you in
answering your questions, but wealso realize there are a lot of
other educators out there whohave great advice and experience
too.
Let's keep learning together inour Melissa and Lori Love
Literacy Podcast Facebook group,and be sure to follow us on
Instagram and Twitter.
Lori (55:04):
If the content in this episode helped you, share with a
fellow educator and teacherfriend.
Our literacy lover communitywelcomes educators at every
stage of their learning journey.
We're so glad you're here tolearn with us.
Melissa (55:17):
The views and opinions expressed by the hosts and
guests of the Melissa and LoriLove Literacy Podcast in this
episode are not necessarily theopinions of great minds PC or
its employees.
You're listening to Melissa and Lori Love Literacy
and today we'll be talking toMissy Purcell about a blog post
that she authored.
Dear Balanced Literacy Teacher,this is an important topic in
literacy because we want tonormalize the idea that kids can
learn how to read withstructured literacy instruction
(00:21):
instead of our current Normanclassrooms, which is that there
are struggling readers.
With structured literacyinstruction, we can cast a wider
net to reach all students.
Lori (00:34):
Welcome Teacher Friend.
I'm Lori and I'm Melissa.
We are two literacy educatorsin Baltimore.
Melissa (00:40):
We want the best for all kids and we know you do too,
Our district recently adopted anew literacy curriculum, which
meant a lot of change foreveryone, lori and I can't wait
to keep learning about literacywith you today.
Lori (00:57):
Hi everyone, welcome to Melissa and Lori Love Literacy
Literacy Podcast.
Today we can't wait to talk toa parent of a child with
dyslexia and a former balancedliteracy teacher.
Melissa (01:11):
Yeah, we have Missy Purcell here today, and she
wrote a blog post recently thatcaught our eye called Dear
Balanced Literacy Teacher, andshe, before that, was a teacher
of balanced literacy herself,and she now works to encourage
educators across the country toembrace the science of reading.
So we are so excited to haveyou here today, missy.
(01:33):
Feel free to tell us anythingelse about yourself that we
don't already know.
Missy Purcell (01:39):
Yeah, thanks for the introduction and I am super
excited to be here today.
I am indeed a former balancedliteracy teacher and could have
probably convinced anyone to useit, but I'm also a mom.
I have three boys and they areall, sadly, products of balanced
(02:00):
literacy.
That's another story foranother day.
Mary, to my wonderful husbandMark, for over 20 years, and we
also have a little puppy that'snamed Miss Comet, who's probably
sleeping close by and hopefullywon't join the podcast today.
That's right.
Lori (02:17):
We welcome all family members.
Well, thank you, missy.
I'm wondering if you could juststart us off by telling us a
little bit about your son, yourcurrent sixth grader, and his
journey learning to read.
Missy Purcell (02:32):
Yeah, gosh, I'm going to try to condense that
down into a smaller podcast.
Yeah, he, you know the youngestchild.
What kind of just assumed hewould follow the path of his
older brothers.
And, just like his olderbrothers, our house is filled
with books.
I am a former teacher, so I hadevery picture book and every
(02:56):
Eric Carle book.
You know everything that youcould find that we were.
Everything was well read, wellloved.
Literacy was just a part of ourhome.
I love reading, I love teachingreading, and so I assumed that
he would do just as well as hisbrothers.
He went to preschool, lovedpreschool, and we had a really
great preschool.
However, when he left preschool, I remember getting a letter
from his preschool teachertelling me how much they loved
(03:20):
him and they were so sad to seehim leave to go to kindergarten,
and I remember the words thatstung were we were a little
disappointed that he didn't makemore progress, and I thought
and that was really the firsttime I knew there was a problem
and then I'm looking at thispaper and he didn't know any of
his sounds for his letters.
So he had the only letter heknew was in for Matthew and that
(03:43):
was his name, so he heard itall the time, so he knew that
sound.
But that's all he knew.
And I knew that was not thesame as my older two boys.
So I took that knowledgestraight into the kindergarten
teacher and I remember hertelling me at the first
conference with fall conferencesDon't worry, they all develop
at their own pace.
He's also a little young for hisage.
(04:03):
He'll catch up.
And so I believed it then.
But I was still worried becauseI thought that's just weird.
The other two that was not myexperience and I kept hearing
that he'll catch up.
I heard that at the end ofkindergarten, first grade was a
little different.
He didn't catch up.
So, even though they weren'tworried, they put him in reading
(04:24):
recovery, which I didn't knowat that point that I knew
reading recovery as a formerteacher.
So I was excited that they weregoing to put him in a program
that was going to help him, or Ithought was going to help him
and it's one on one, like thatfeels like.
Melissa (04:37):
It's like this is great , he's getting one on one
support.
Missy Purcell (04:40):
And they make you feel so special because your
kid was selected for thisspecial program and not every
kid gets into it.
Like, which is the dirty littlesecret of reading recovery?
Right, that it's not open toeveryone, it's only open to this
little, you know, extreme groupof kids, sadly, the ones that
actually need something totallydifferent, which I didn't know.
And about week 10 of thatprogram he got, I got a letter
(05:06):
from the, from the teacher, thereading recovery teacher,
letting me know that he was kindof stalled and she asked me to
give him a pep talk and ask meif I was reading to him at home,
and so I felt a little shamedas a former teacher and as a
parent, like oh, we're not,we're not doing the right thing
and he's not making progress.
Lori (05:27):
Yeah, I'm kind of wincing as you're saying each thing
right, like the letter frompreschool, the communication
from school.
I mean I'm kind of bracingmyself for what you're about to
say because I didn't just tellby your face it's not going to
be great.
And just to hear those thingsabout your child, who I'm sure
was putting a million percenteffort out there.
Missy Purcell (05:47):
He was and what we also didn't realize, that is
that he was putting that effortin, so we were seeing symptoms
but we didn't know it.
Then, Once again, it was onemore thing we didn't know.
He started becoming obsessedwith what he wore.
He started getting action plansin first grade.
So yellow first grader wasgetting an action plan.
Coincidentally, these arebehavior plans in my, in our
(06:09):
district for behaviors in class.
They feel serious.
They're not really that big ofa deal Like the kids don't know
that, but it feels like a bigdeal because you have to go see
the administrator.
So you know he was getting.
He got an action plan for makingarmpit noises I can't even say
that with a straight face and hecouldn't write it.
(06:29):
So he had to draw a picture ofhimself making armpit noises.
That was his, his bad deed, andthen he got in trouble for that
.
But it was during reading groupand then he started getting
sick every day, especially ondictation day.
They had to write, they had todictate words and sentences and
he failed them every week and hegot big red.
I wish you know I could show you, but he got big red Ink marks
(06:51):
about his letters floating inthe air and, um, you know how to
write this and it was just.
And then it could even read theteacher's notes, right?
So, um, weirdly enough, thoughhe's getting these dictation
sheets, he's failing that inreading recovery.
He's got this writing book,that none of this in his own
handwriting.
I wish.
I thought it was weird.
It was like all the teachershandwriting and little letters
(07:12):
that he would glue, so he stillwasn't getting handwriting
instruction in this veryspecialized instruction.
I requested an SST, which inour district is a student
support team, to discuss thefact that he's in a special
intervention and it's notworking, and I was told to wait
once again, wait till the end.
Melissa (07:33):
You see, I'm wondering if you could like, just for our
audience's sake.
Well, just, some people knowthis already, Some people don't.
But just let's talk aboutyou've mentioned balance,
literacy, you probably you knowa lot about it and reading
recovery.
I'm wondering if you could justtalk about those, just just
those programs, Like not evenwith what you're sound,
experienced or anything, butjust what are the?
What are they like?
Like what is what is includedin those programs?
Missy Purcell (07:55):
Yeah, well, from just prior teaching experience,
balance literacy is a nutshell,a hybrid version of whole
language, which I didn't knowwhen I was trained.
But it was this attempt tobring balance between the two
worlds of whole language and,like a phonics only approach,
right.
So it was this, this, thismerging of the two.
(08:16):
I call it a band aid, honestly,it's my nickname for it, it's
the phonics band aid.
So when you know the wholelanguage, folks kind of back in
the late 80s kind of got calledout for having this missing
piece.
There was this attempt to put aband aid on, also to come in
alignment with some of thelegislation that was going on in
the country at that time, andso let's add what's missing.
(08:38):
But the unfortunate part tothat was that it was really just
a band aid in it.
There was nothing systematicabout it, there was nothing
explicit about it, so it wasstill dependent upon a teacher
noticing what a child wasmissing, which is hard to do in
every single guided readinggroup, right, you're only
noticing what you have, whatyou're seeing in this particular
(09:01):
book you're reading, and torespond to that.
So there's not systematic, it'sresponsive.
I say you're only fixing theproblem before you not the core
problem of we missed a lot ofskills along the way.
I need to take this kid throughSystematic scope and sequence
so that they can learn all theseskills.
And they and I know theylearned them because I taught
(09:24):
them with direct instruction andso there was nothing like that
in a balance literacy classroom.
When I taught, I had a minilesson every day.
I had my beautiful anchorcharts hanging everywhere, which
is probably so overwhelming Iwas going to go back and
apologize to everyone, but youknow so.
(09:45):
And then you have time for themto work independently while
you're pulling kids in groupsand you're working either in
guided reading or maybeconferences if you're doing
writing time.
But so you're not getting evenevery kid every day.
You're getting a smallpercentage, and then it's so
rushed that there I often foundthat when I was doing kind of
reading, when I the part thatmattered most, the phonics part,
(10:07):
was so rushed and so limited tothe responsive teaching that I
was, I always felt like I wasmissing something too and that
the kids that needed to getbetter weren't getting better.
And then reading recovery andit's just I like to call it a
step child about literacy, butreally I kind of think it might
(10:28):
have existed somewhere in therealm first, and then some of
these other programs grew out ofit, but it's.
It's just that the whole ideathat I can take a kid in a
smaller setting and do more ofthe same, I can give them more
cues, you know, I can help themlook at the pictures more, I can
cue them to the first letterand I can kind of let them look
(10:49):
at the context clues and see ifthey can figure the words out.
It turned reading into aguessing game, which for Matthew
was detrimental because readingreally was a game of
substituting and guessing orskipping.
So he was either skipping,substituting or just flat out
guessing what was in front ofhim and which comes from those
(11:09):
cues that are found in both ofthose programs.
Lori (11:13):
What I'm hearing you say, just to recap, is that balance
literacy held him back fromreading by guessing, by looking
at the pictures, by looking atthe first letters, and then he
would guess.
The rest of the word he wouldskip, he would substitute words.
Missy Purcell (11:26):
Anything you want to add to that, I mean that is
100% exactly his experience, andthat the sad part of it is that
I mean, our, our district wasis a I used to call us the
balance literacy empire, right,and so it was everywhere.
I didn't matter if you were in,you know, tier one, tier two or
three, you were going to getsome version of balance literacy
(11:48):
.
So, from Matthew, as hecontinued to struggle, his
experience was let me put him inmore of the same methodology of
instruction and let's see if itworks this time which is not
the definition of insanity.
Lori (12:00):
Yeah, doing the same thing .
Yes, that isn't working.
Melissa (12:05):
Yeah, more of it to even more, more One on one more,
more, more, more.
Missy Purcell (12:11):
And I would even say to the very program, the
resources our district uses.
Font uses font is a panel whichis a program designed to
support balance literacy, andthe very program itself kept the
teachers, ironically, fromseeing where he was struggling,
even though it was supposed tobe responsive.
(12:32):
We had all of these runningrecords, right.
They did a BAS every year andhe was zigzagging all over the
place.
There was some progress that hewas not progressing and and
even from year to year, like oneteacher would say he was a
level H and the next teacherwould say he was a level D, and
(12:53):
I thought, gosh, how can youlike, not, how can you be able
to read and then not be able toread that was one of my first
clues is like even the veryassessment is somehow
handicapping our teachers fromknowing that this isn't working.
Melissa (13:06):
Yeah, I think that's a really good point.
When we talk to teachers whohave moved from a balance
literacy to systemic phonicsinstruction, they, they
Systematic, sorry, and you knowthat that's what they actually
say.
They're like oh my gosh, now Ican see, I see where, where
their gaps are, I see what theyneed, I can help them get what
they need and and we can keepmoving.
Before it was for the teachersa guessing game of where the
(13:27):
students were, just like it wasa guessing game for the students
when they were reading Rightright, it's just a constant
series of everyone really notknowing where we were headed.
Yeah, yeah, just kind ofeveryone fumbling.
Yeah, so you're a son, missy,we know this already, but
Eventually was diagnosed withdyslexia.
(13:49):
Somewhere in this journey canyou tell, like when that
happened?
How did that?
Missy Purcell (13:56):
happen.
Yes, so fast forward to secondgrade.
He has exited reading recovery.
We're still not reading ongrade level.
Now we're in second grade.
He does get an assessment fromthe school and they, although
they won't diagnose, they diddetect In the screen the testing
(14:16):
that they did a full,comprehensive psychological
educational exam, that he had anSLD in reading, and I was kind
of pulled to the side and saidmost likely dyslexia.
But we don't say that word here,you know, so it's like the bad
naughty word at school.
So he was, was semi diagnosed,I guess you would say at least
(14:37):
flagged at that point, and sadly, though, that didn't equal
anything different from him.
And he was actually pulled outof his regular a classroom for
our language arts at that pointto go into what was called a
resource classroom when I laterlearned there were 24 students.
There were more in that roomthan his regular a classroom and
, yes, that's like a whole classof students itself.
(14:59):
Yes, and this was tier three orfour, right special education.
And he's getting LLI, and whichis this, you know, remediation
of fontanis.
And now it's another program.
It's balanced literacy at itsheart.
I was told that it was designedfor kids with dyslexia by the
teacher when I questioned so atthis point I'm starting to wake
(15:20):
up and he wasn't reallyofficially diagnosed, though,
until fourth grade, so it wouldbe two more years of him being
in a school setting, gettingbalanced literacy, even in the
special ed setting, before hewas tested privately and
diagnosed, and at that point thesad part was we had now
standardized test that showedthat he had regressed in almost
(15:44):
every single area, from thattest in a 2019 to the one done
two years later.
So he had totally regressed.
And so there was.
We had hard evidence that, eventhough their paperwork said
progressing as expected everysingle nine weeks, he was not.
In fact, he was actuallydrowning.
And I think the hardest part forme I always get a little.
(16:07):
I'll try not to be, I'm gonnatry to keep it together today,
but the hardest part for me andthat was there was a social
emotional screener, and he toldthe psychologist that His
greatest goal in life was tolearn to read, and this was a
fourth grader, and for me thatwas so I thought something's not
(16:30):
right with what I know to beright.
I loved what I did as a teacherand I think my classroom was a
happy, joyful place, because I'mjust that kind of person and I
do think, hopefully, kids feltsafe in my room.
They certainly didn't get whatthey needed because I was
staring at a child who is theproduct of this and he was not
proficient.
(16:50):
Not only was he not proficient,he was regressing and no one
knew it.
No one knew it and that's whatwas always so perplexing to me
was that bounce literacy.
You know really, champions,that we're responsive.
We're responsive.
You gotta know the kid andrespond.
Well, we have five years toknow this kid.
He been the same school forfive years and he didn't know
(17:13):
how to read and no one knew it.
That test was shocking toeveryone in the room and I think
, even the school for thatmeeting.
We had to discuss those in that.
You know the private evaluationthere was.
It was silent, no one could sayanything because the number
spoke for themselves.
Melissa (17:33):
It's heartbreaking.
Lori (17:34):
It is, I'm well first.
Thank you for sharing that.
I'm sure that is really hard togo back and think about, but
hopefully your story is helpingeducators out there and and
parents out there listening andI'm wondering if we can turn a
little bit to what he actuallydid need and really, what do
(17:55):
most students actually need?
He might share that with us.
Missy Purcell (17:58):
Yeah, well, I learned during this process.
I started investigating, that'swhat I do and I'm really
stressed.
I turn it to this super like.
Let me look this up.
Lori (18:10):
Let me Google that.
Right, I'm gonna be like a typeA thing.
Missy Purcell (18:15):
Seriously, I started joining these Facebook
groups about anything withdyslexia, whether it be
nationwide or locally, or Istarted, you know, when I was in
these groups.
I found these amazing peoplethat I later learned were called
advocates, and and then Ilearned through that about this
whole world, this term that keptcoming up, the science of
(18:37):
reading and structured literacy.
And then I'm just reading andreading and I found this one
blog that compare the two and Ithought, oh my gosh, like I was
wrong.
And there's a moment as ateacher especially when you care
so much about people's kidswhere you're like they went
(18:59):
through my years of classroomand I was a fourth and fifth
grade teacher, so I was kind oflike a last hope before middle
school, right, and they didn'tget what they needed.
They left, they came in notreading and they left not
reading.
And I learned that Matthewdidn't need that anymore than
those kids needed it.
He needed something calledstructured literacy, which I
(19:21):
call like the.
It's like the, it's like a oh,my brain just stopped working An
antinem, right, yeah, there wego.
It's going to antinem for forbalanced literacy.
So when people try to blend itagain like you can't, because
it's literally the opposite.
It literally is not connectedat all.
You almost have to deconstructwhat you know about literacy.
(19:44):
You have to break it down andsay that right now I'm going to
put it over here in a corner andlet me just see what this is.
And I learned that it wasexplicit.
That means someone directlyteaches my kid what he needs to
know and they follow a scope andsequence.
I learned the term systematicphonics, which was different
than balanced literacy, becausethat's analytical phonics.
(20:05):
That's where I look and see andI teach you what I notice you
don't know.
And systematic was that I'mgoing to test you on all these
skills and then I'm going tosystematically walk you through
all of them to make sure you'vemastered them.
Lori (20:17):
Can I just add one thing right here?
It is the difference betweenlooking at the child in front of
you and then bringing in the,let's say, phonics in this case.
Right, then, bringing in thephonics rather than knowing this
is what kids need to know toread and then teaching the
students.
So it's a, it's knowing thescience first and then applying
(20:39):
it to your students in asystematic, structure way and
then filling in gaps from there,versus looking at a child which
, to be honest, as a formerprimary teacher, is so much more
manageable.
Missy Purcell (20:52):
Yeah, that's so daunting I need to know the
science.
Lori (20:55):
And then I can teach students in a systematic way,
and then I need to fill in smallgaps, versus let me see what 30
kids need to know sitting infront of me and they all need
something different Like I'mjust setting myself up for
failure.
Melissa (21:10):
That's why I just want to say that and like Missy said
you probably have like 20minutes to do that with each
group of kids Right?
Missy Purcell (21:19):
Not even the right time or enough time, or
yeah, and it's like oh no, butlike, even just to piggyback,
you've got 28 kids too.
Or one year I had 32, which isterrible, but 100%.
And I remember getting all thatdata at the beginning of the
year and thinking what do I dowith all this, especially when
it was a little bit hard toswallow data.
(21:39):
Like I've got kids who aren'treading on grade level in the
fifth grade and I've got to getthem to be proficient readers
before they go to middle school.
You're right.
Yeah, it's like you try to playthe game without knowing the
rules, Right, so you're justkind of all you're doing all
these things for trying tofigure it out.
And if you just know how to doit to begin with, you could have
(22:01):
had the systematic approach toit.
And Matthew needed that.
All kids need it because itensures that all kids get a
strong foundation in the skillsor the code, the English
language.
They get all of that.
But dyslexic kids need it times100.
They need more repetition andmore time to review and reverse
(22:22):
drills and someone who's reallykind of approaching their
learning from a diagnosticapproach.
But I think that a kid like mykid and many other dyslexic kids
, if they had gotten afoundation of structured
literacy in those early years,the need for such intense
remediation later in life wouldnot be there, because they would
(22:44):
have a better foundation tostart with.
And when you get a kid likemine, who's had five years of
balanced literacy and finallystumbles into like real
structured literacy with ahighly trained teacher, you know
he made, he's making progress,but it's slow and it is hard and
(23:04):
frustrating and it didn't haveto be that way for him and so
many others.
Melissa (23:10):
It seems like we're just doing such a disservice to
our students and to parents.
Lori (23:16):
Well, and families and communities, and I mean honestly
educators too.
Missy Purcell (23:22):
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
When I met with Matthew'sfourth grade teacher, this was
during the COVID year, right,this is 2020.
And I went in and I wanted tomeet because I wanted to see
they were piloting Wilson, whichis an OG structured literacy
approach, and I wanted to see ifMatthew was going to be in that
.
And she said no, I only haveLLI and I'm not trained to work
(23:46):
with kids with dyslexia.
This was the special ed teacher.
Lori (23:50):
So you know that's great.
I know it breaks my heart.
Missy Purcell (23:54):
Yeah, and I thought and I said well, what is
Matthew doing in your class?
You know like and not to bemean to her, because she was a
lovely person and I think shewanted to help my kid, but she
did not have what she needed tohelp my kid.
So that's not fair to her, it'snot fair to Matthew.
Lori (24:10):
Right, well, and there's so many, oh sorry, there's so
many programs out there Like howdo we know what's what?
Sorry, I'm going to go ahead.
Melissa (24:17):
No, no, I was just going to back up a little bit
because you know you mentionedthat what he needed was the
structured literacy and thatteacher had structured literacy
but wasn't, you know, giving itto your student who had dyslexia
.
Like, I just want to make surefor our audience we're really
clear.
Like is the structured literacyall that?
A student with dyslexia?
(24:37):
Not all, but is that mostlywhat a student with dyslexia
needs to meet their needs?
Or or?
Or is it more than that, or isit beyond just the structure of
literacy?
Missy Purcell (24:48):
I think it needs to come with a highly trained
teacher.
That's something that I reallyreally talk a lot about when I
talk to people about making thischange is that you've got to
train the teachers.
The program the OG program thatyou choose, the structure
literacy program that you choose, is great and the hands of an
untrained teacher is going to.
(25:10):
I think there's a tendency, ifwe don't train our teachers, for
them to keep blending and tolean into what's comfortable and
what they know.
So I think I think there's atendency there where we can
really do some harm meaningfulwe mean well, but we can still
do some harm.
The teacher is our greatestresource, literally, and what
(25:30):
they know and how they can takethose tools.
I've watched Matthew's privatetutor teach him how to read with
a whiteboard and a dry racemarker.
She and I know she has a scopeand sequence hidden somewhere
that I didn't know about, butbut she's following, but she's
just, you know, doing this thingand it's amazing and it works.
And so she didn't have somefancy manual or book.
(25:53):
She had a very simple tool inher hand, but what she did have
was this knowledge of how thebrain learns to read.
That's what she had.
Melissa (26:03):
Right.
And it reminds me of when wehad Angie Hanlon on Lori who
talked about those repetitionsright and know it.
You know, in the hands of ateacher who might not know they
might do it twice and say, oh,they're just still not getting
it.
Versus like, if you do know,you know that they might just
need this a few more times,maybe a lot more.
Lori (26:21):
Yeah, maybe 100 more times .
Missy Purcell (26:24):
Yes, we're going to keep going until we get it,
especially when you consider akid who's coming out of a
balanced literacy environmentwho has depended upon cues Right
and they're, and it's justhardwired into them to skip and
substitute, which was my son'sproblem.
He was a master at substitutingand skipping and an untrained
eye he could look like he waskeeping up.
Lori (26:47):
It is very tricky.
Yes, I mean you.
Yeah, once you learn to see it,you can see it.
So you can see themsubstituting and they're just
guessing.
But it is so obvious once youknow they are guessing based on
that first letter.
Missy Purcell (27:02):
Yes, yes, yes, because I remember there were a
couple of pivotal moments inthis awakening for me.
So I kind of started figuringout these groups, right, and I'm
researching, I'm finding outthe structure of literacy,
science of reading, I'm orderingbooks, I'm just, you know, I'm
reading chapters and you know,and I'm asking questions, and
(27:26):
and then I started emailing theschool hey, what are you using
to teach Matthew?
And I was told oh, lly, becauseit's great for comprehension,
and we're going to use Wilson onthe side to teach him some
phonics.
Lori (27:41):
So they were.
You know what I think aboutthat, you know, and like you
have a fraction and it's liketwo over two, it's like a whole
number, right, it crosses itselfout.
Yes, yes, yes, and I'm like thenot anything helpful.
Yes, and you're doing somethingkind of helpful, but it doesn't
really matter.
Yeah, still doing things thataren't helpful, and then the
(28:04):
kids getting a complete mixedmessage and I think that it
really actually works.
Missy Purcell (28:08):
No, it doesn't.
Because there's such anemphasis on comprehension,
especially in the upper grades,that when a child is missing
foundational skills, the otherpart of you know if you're
familiar with the reading right,but if you're, if they're
missing those foundationalskills, we're putting the cart
before the horse when we try tofocus on comprehension so much.
Yes, we can focus on listening,comprehension through some
(28:30):
great read allows in a richliterature environment, which
environment which we should haveas teachers.
But if we're putting such anemphasis on comprehension and
we're totally ignoring thesepoor decoding skills in the
background that are leading to alack of comprehension, then we
are doing the child of theservice, also the teachers,
(28:51):
because there's a false sense ofof achievement and success.
That's not there.
And I heard it, I heard it overand over from so many teachers,
like I'm doing this and this,I'm blending this and this, and
I kept saying but this is acomprehensive program over here
it really does work, likethere's all these really smart
people who researched it andstudied it and they know it
(29:12):
works and they've seen it workand I think we should just do
all 10 parts of this lesson.
And they constantly keptblending and I at one point said
this is harming my kid, becauseduring the pandemic he was
digital and I was watching.
This was the special ed, youknow, remediation class and it
was just basically the first 20days of reading workshop from
(29:35):
the Fontainele book, where youteach kids that reading is
thinking I can.
I can recite those lessonsbecause I taught them so much.
And I was like whoa, wait aminute, like his goals for
decoding and fluency andaccuracy.
And then I started asking, likewhat decoding goals are you
working on?
Which ones is he missing?
(29:56):
And I couldn't get the answers.
So I started seeing rightbefore me this is not working
and I'd see him substitute andskip and be praised for reading
so good.
When he did a running record,he would be out of the way.
I'm so proud of you, you'vecome so far.
And I thought, no, he's justlearned to guess and play the
(30:17):
system.
He's been programmed to usethese cues and, yeah, I guess if
you taught him the cues andhe's doing that, he actually is
doing what you're looking for.
But that's not equaling aproficient reader, because what
they couldn't see is that he wasreading, his legs were shaking
uncontrollably, which I now knowwas anxiety, and as soon as the
(30:37):
class ended he'd shut thecomputer down and have a
complete meltdown, justoverwhelmed with all this
information, or had teacherscall me and say he knew this.
This morning we were working onthese word patterns but when I
tested him later in the day hedidn't know it and that was this
great mystery to them and I waslike that's called dyslexia and
(30:58):
it means it's not mapped in hisbrain.
And I didn't have a degree inthis.
This was just me reading allthese books and just educating
myself on what my kid needed.
So yeah, it was an eye-openingyear and it just ignited in me
this passion to be.
(31:19):
What would I want someone totell me if I was still in the
classroom?
What would help me change fromwhat I thought was the best way
to what I now know right infront of me is really actually
hurting kids.
Lori (31:35):
And you wrote about this in your blog.
Would you mind sharing thatwith our listeners?
You've mentioned four points.
Missy Purcell (31:41):
Yeah, and my whole.
The reason I talk a lot aboutthis is that I want teachers to
feel supported and have an easyway to move from where they are
to what's next.
And even if you take one stepin the right direction, you're
taking a step to help a kid beless anxious, to be less
overwhelmed and to move towardproficiency.
(32:01):
And some of these things arepretty easy to do.
It's kind of what I did in thisprocess.
I think the first one is listento stories of failure.
I am one of thousands ofparents of a kid like Matthew.
That was shocking to me.
I started listening to parents.
I found groups you knowdecoding to support groups and
(32:24):
decoding advocacy groups and ourstories are eerily the same.
I mean waiting for them to fail, years of interventions that
did not work and it's almostlike in some circles it's easy
to pretend like we don't existand that this isn't happening or
that we're rare, like she'sjust the exception because she's
(32:47):
that mom.
Lori (32:48):
That's what I was going to say.
You kind of end up being anudge, like being oh well, here
comes that mom.
And really you're not beingthat mom.
You're just trying to get whatyou need for your not only for
your kid, but for lots of otherkids who maybe don't have
parents, who have thatinformation or maybe who are
acting on other ways and who arepresenting in other ways.
(33:11):
Right, they're misdiagnosed.
I would say, yeah, understood.
Missy Purcell (33:16):
Yeah, a lot of kids with dyslexia and reading
struggles, especially if they'reboys, or even some of our
minority children and black orbrown friends.
We focus on what they are doingand how they're acting in the
classroom versus what's going oninside the child and that those
behaviors might actually becommunication of.
(33:37):
I need help, I need you toteach me how to read.
I need you to teach me how todo this because I'm not getting
it the way you're teaching me.
And I mean I know with my ownchild there was a focus on
behavior action plans, you know,and then his own behaviors if
I'm sick and then he becameobsessed with what he was
wearing.
So we had a lot of behaviors andI learned that so many kids are
(34:01):
just like Matthew where andthey have been delayed the right
to read for years, and it's nowonder that by the time they're
in third, fourth and fifth gradethat they're so frustrated Kids
biting their fingers to thepoint of bleeding and acting out
in rage or shutting downcompletely.
(34:21):
It looks, you're right, itlooks so different for every kid
, but it's there nonetheless.
And if you heard just a few ofour stories, I think that
there's an empathy that'screated there.
That is hard to ignore and Ithink can become a catalyst for
let me find out more, let me seehow that happens.
(34:43):
And do I have any Matthews inmy room?
The chances are you do, becauseyou know, some studies say that
as many as 20% of our kids havedyslexia, and so at least one
in five in every classroom is inthis, but they're often not
identified and they're silentlystruggling.
Melissa (35:01):
I was going to say that .
And see, and not only that,right, there's students who
aren't identified as dyslexic,right?
So you think, oh, this is justa rare thing, only a few of kids
have dyslexia, but actuallymore probably do that aren't
identified.
But then you also have a wholegroup of students who may or may
not have dyslexia.
Regardless whether they do ordon't, or are on some kind of
like spectrum of the dyslexiaspectrum, they are struggling to
(35:26):
read right.
We know from nationwide datathat what a third of our
students across the nation arereading proficiently.
So you know you have even morestudents who are just not
getting what they need in theclassroom.
So there's stories of failurethat go, you know, beyond just
dyslexia and really hit probablya majority of students and
(35:47):
families.
Missy Purcell (35:49):
Yeah, I mean this supersedes dyslexia for sure.
I mean I have three kids I liketo say my three boys kind of
fit on the Nancy Young's readingyou know reading ladder.
I have a top kid who justseemed to magically learn to
read.
He's just I don't know, I don'teven know how that happened.
I actually thought I was sogood at what I was doing that it
(36:11):
was me right.
I read him so much and I didall the things right and he just
magically learned to read.
And then I have a middle childwho's actually the middle of the
ladder.
He needed direct instructionand never got it.
And now we're seeing that playout a lot.
He's learning a second languagein the ninth grade and he's
struggling because he doesn'tknow some of the basic nuts and
bolts of the English language.
(36:32):
He doesn't know what nouns andverbs are in the ninth grade, or
articles, and so when he'strying to conjugate those into a
second language he's runninginto some barriers.
So I mean he fits very muchinto the middle.
He needed this.
You can see it very much in hiswriting and his spelling.
And then my youngest falls intothat bottom where he has to
(36:53):
have it.
It's not negotiable.
So, yeah, this affects so manykids, which is why this
conversation used to happenoutside of the special ed
setting, and it's why everyteacher needs to get
professional development in thisarea, so that, even across
content areas, we all have tohold our piece of the reading
and writing instruction,regardless of whether this is
(37:14):
our primary subject that weteach, and I'm totally biased,
but when I took letters training, I was just like I think every
single teacher, no matter gradelevel, content area.
Melissa (37:24):
I think every single teacher should get this.
I think they should get it incollege, but it's a different so
far.
Missy Purcell (37:31):
That's a different podcast.
Yes, yes.
Lori (37:37):
All right.
So step one is listen to thestories of failure.
Yes, and I think you kind ofalluded to your step two as well
.
Missy Purcell (37:44):
Yes, Join a community of learners.
I mean, that's what I did.
You know, we are somewhat theproduct of our environment.
So I, you know you mentionededucation.
I went to the University ofGeorgia and my entire
educational experience from mydegrees were in balanced
literacy I was Lucy Calkins andStephanie Harvey and Nancy
(38:07):
Atwell, because I had a kind ofsome upper, you know, grade
experience, and so all of thegreats at that time were who
influenced me.
Our school when I moved toGwinnett County that's my
district that I taught in andstill live in and we are about
literacy so we moved intoFonteson Pnell, actually got to
attend a training with LucyCalkins, you know, and so we
(38:32):
were very much for reading andwriting tapped into that.
Melissa (38:36):
So those were my influencers, those were the
books I read, and when everyonearound you speaking that
language, then why would youeven think?
Yeah, yeah.
Missy Purcell (38:44):
There's a different way.
But you know, I had my you know, fmp Bible.
I called it, it was my guidedreading book and I had all these
things.
In the middle of all this I hadattended a professional
development one summer that I'mreading it and I was like this
is all structured literacy.
There was this lady in ourstate that provided these
(39:04):
reading instruction,professional developments, and I
had written all these notes,even like about dyslexia, and
the word decoding was there,which I didn't know for my
college instruction.
I didn't know that word.
I called it, word calling whichI now know is a sleight of hand
for kind of ignoring that.
But anyway, I, you know, I wasshocked because I thought this
(39:26):
was all right in front of me.
But here's why it's important tojoin a community of learners.
It was there and I got greattraining.
I went back to my school andthat was not anywhere on my
school setting.
It wasn't.
No one was speaking thatlanguage.
There was no place for me toimplement it or no support, no
one to help guide me in theprocess.
And so joining a community oflearners is huge, to start
(39:51):
reading some books.
I think the Dyslexia Advocatewas one book that I read and
that was a game changer for meand just join some community
books, facebook pages, startreading if you're really into
some really hard stuff, to readsome of the cognitive scientists
(40:11):
reports.
And I think once you startrealizing and finding that there
are some friends in this worldand they're on the same journey
as you, it changes the gamebecause you now feel like you're
not one like an island at yourschool.
You have a community and ifyou're frustrated at your school
(40:32):
, take it to the community andshare with them and you're going
to find a ton of support inthose groups just to cheer you
on as you learn.
Melissa (40:40):
Yeah, I think we've seen that on social media, both
our own social media.
We've seen it.
But you know the science ofreading what I should have
learned in college Facebook,that one huge one that you see
it all the time of like you know, I'm the only person at my
school, but thank goodness I'mhere and learning.
Yes, yes it makes a bigdifference.
Lori (41:00):
Yeah, well, speaking of that, melissa, I think like I'm
the only one at my school andI'm someone who knows about this
, and I think that that personwould be aligned to Missy's
third point, which would beadvocate for change in your
district or even in your school.
Right, like small steps matter.
Missy Purcell (41:18):
Yeah, yeah, this is huge because I want teachers
to know that I'm, I'm, champ,I'm, I'm, I'm cheering for you
that's the word.
I'm cheering for you, but thatI know it's easy to feel like
sometimes in this and what wecall the reading wars, that
you're kind of a casualty oryou're being attacked, but I
feel like we're not going tomake any progress if we continue
(41:42):
down that path.
We've got to find a way to cometogether and talk and get some
common ground.
And then when you are thatperson who has finally had a
kind of a turnaround, right, andyou now see your eyes are
opened, I call it like yoursolid appall moment, right.
But when you see, oh, mygoodness, this is so different
(42:03):
and this is so critical and Iwant to move toward this and I'm
embracing this, start beingthat voice of change in your
environment we have we are in mydistrict this is kind of
exciting where we're beginningto make this change right.
So this past year, I think, wemet with some of the district
(42:23):
leaders and we proposed whatthis would look like.
Surprisingly, they had theirown plan already after a lot of
conversations.
That was very similar to whatwe thought would be the perfect
world for change and all theteachers over the summer had
their first introductory courseinto OG just pure Orton,
gillingham, and and they're allnow moving into a letters
(42:45):
training.
And of course, there's a lot ofchatter online and the teacher
groups of you know more trainingand this.
I'm overwhelmed already.
I have too many kids.
This is a hard time to teach.
This is post pandemic oractually we're still in the
middle of it, and so all that tosay, it's easy for people to
(43:06):
get negative and for this to gooff the rails before it even
gets going in the rightdirection.
So if you have already made thatchange and you're one of those
teachers, be the voice ofpositivity, be the voice that's
listening, that hears and kindof then re explains it in the
way that they can hear it, andchampion for a full, hard right
(43:28):
turn in the opposite directionand not a reblending, because
that's my biggest fear is that,in order to pacify some of the
uncomfortable tensions, thatwe're going to try to keep
reblending, and that is notgoing to work.
We've been doing that fordecades.
It's time to make a hard turnand embrace a new way to teach.
I took a.
(43:48):
I did the read three, the read360 from Tennessee, the first
level of training that all theteachers were getting, which is
kind of cool.
If you're in that state whoyou're doing great things.
But one of the questions to getmy final certification was what
I would do if I was like at thelunch table and people were
speaking negatively about thescience of reading.
Melissa (44:08):
And I thought right, I thought they get it.
Missy Purcell (44:11):
They get it because they realize the power
of the voice from within, and soif you are someone who's made
that change, you can be thatpower.
Show up at your board meetings.
We, a group of teachers andformer teachers and parents,
speak almost monthly at ourboard meetings, our board of
education meetings, and teachersare joining man.
Your voice is critical in thosespaces.
When you get up and you saywhat we're saying and you're on
(44:33):
the ground floor, the districtleaders listen and they listen
to these teachers and I thinkthat's one of the biggest
reasons this began to change isthat we came together to make
the change, versus fightingagainst each other.
So that's a huge change thatyou can make.
Melissa (44:47):
I mean it's such a good point.
Change is so hard but, like yousaid, you can't just, we can't
just keep putting bandaids on it, like we have to really make a
change.
But change is hard, so we allhave to be in it together.
Lori (45:02):
Yeah, so good, and I really love your last and your
final point.
Can I read it and then I'll letyou elaborate on it?
I get goose bumps because itshould be the norm right.
Expect every kid to learn toread.
That's it.
Expect every kid should learnto read and not the other way
(45:22):
around, like I just think.
I remember being again aprimary teacher, a fifth grade
teacher, and thinking of courseI'll have struggling students
when it be incredible world ifthe norm was.
Of course most of my kids canread.
Like that should be the thought, right, and I think that that's
what we're stepping into.
Missy Purcell (45:41):
Yeah, I mean gosh , what a game changer if every
teacher left college, or if thatwas the vision statement that
was cast at the beginning ofevery school year expect every
kid to learn to read and knowthe part you play and making
that happen.
And I think the initial successin that is that teachers have
to believe that that's possible.
And we have studies.
(46:04):
The National Institute ofHealth tells us that, you know,
95% of students have thecognitive ability to learn to
read.
So chances are every kid inyour classroom can learn to read
.
And we for so long me included,I accepted failure.
I wasn't happy with it, Iwasn't.
I remember having bigconversations with my principal
(46:26):
about how the fact that I wasgiving kids A's in reading but
they were in fifth grade readingon a second grade reading level
, and something felt weird aboutthat because I was
communicating I get that too,right.
I was communicating to the nextyear's teacher that I had a
proficient reader, right?
But I didn't.
And you know I was like can welike have truth in grading here?
(46:49):
Can their reading level drivetheir grade?
And then it was all the hellwe're going to.
You know that was not a goodthing and thankfully, there's a
whole nother pocket, yeah, butbut you know, if we, if we
believe, not only believe thatthey can read because we have
evidence, we have studies thatshow us that that is true, but
(47:09):
then we know what to do becausewe have been highly trained,
which goes back to the priorpoints, Then we can walk in
confidently every year knowingthat I am ready to teach the
kids that have entered in mydoor and I also.
I just feel so strongly aboutthis.
But my son shouldn't be aunicorn in this world of trying
(47:33):
to make sure that every kid canread.
Every kid deserves the chanceto read, regardless of how they
arrive at our classroom doors.
I don't know what their priorknowledge is, I don't know what
they've been exposed to, whattheir home life is like, if
they've gone on a thousand trips, if someone read to them, if
they happen to have the rightteachers.
(47:54):
That you're before me.
But I do know what's before meIf that kid can't read.
If I'm equipped with greatteaching skills that are aligned
with science, that areevidence-based to produce
proficient readers, I know thatI have an opportunity that year
to move that kid towardproficiency.
(48:14):
And my child is super luckythis past year he was afforded
structural literacy all day,Even his math and social studies
and science and his even hisconnections.
Teachers are all trained atOrton-Gillingham and he learned
to read In one year, one year.
(48:37):
It took five years to get there.
That could have happened inkindergarten.
He had the ability all along.
You guys have teachers if kidsin your classrooms every year
who are sitting there waitingfor you to know how to teach
them and to move them there.
It is possible.
So let that be your mantra thisyear that every kid can learn
(49:00):
to read.
And I want to pursue trainingor take the training I've been
privileged to get and give it toevery kid in front of me.
That's the best skill you cangive every kid because it
affects every part of theirfuture life, Absolutely.
Melissa (49:17):
Well, that felt like a mic drop moment it did.
Lori (49:22):
We're so glad that you wrote this blog.
We're so glad that we connectedwith you about it.
Thank you for your passion andeverything that you're doing for
your own child and also forchildren all across this world
that need this message to getinto their classrooms and
schools and districts.
So thank you.
Melissa (49:42):
And understanding what the teachers are experiencing,
to know that it's notnecessarily an easy road to make
these changes, but it'spossible.
Yes, unnecessary yes, yes.
Missy Purcell (49:55):
Well, go ahead, missy.
Well, I just want to say thankyou to you, but also the
teachers that are listening,because I want you to know that
there are those of us in thetrenches who are advocating hard
for change, but we really areyour cheerleaders and we want to
work together.
We want to be kind of thosebridge builders, because
together we are so much strongerand together we can really
(50:17):
ensure that every kid can read.
Melissa (50:21):
Absolutely, that's true .
Well, we're almost out of timeand I want to make sure, before
we wrap up, we get to ask yousome of the fun questions.
So hard left turn for us tosome fun questions, if that's
okay?
Lori (50:34):
Yes, yes, all right.
The first question is these arejust quick response questions.
What do you love to read?
Missy Purcell (50:42):
Gosh, I love to read just about everything.
I mean ironically, I mean I'llread a cereal box if it's in
front of me.
That was that kid.
But I'm reading.
I mean right now I'm readingLooking for Heroes, which is a
book about a kid who wroteletters to dyslexic people so
that he could learn how theybecame successful.
So that's great.
But then I also love a goodhistorical fiction, a good
(51:05):
trashy beach novel.
Melissa (51:09):
So, who does it yes.
Lori (51:12):
Oh my gosh, I'm going to make sure I link that.
I'm linking it right now in ourshow notes.
Melissa (51:16):
I was like put that in my shopping cart.
All right, what do you love towatch?
Missy Purcell (51:22):
Gosh.
Right now I'm watching, or Ijust finished watching, like the
first few series of a newseries called Bad Sisters.
It's on Apple TV and I wouldhighly recommend it if you loved
Desperate Housewives, oh mygosh yeah.
It's not exactly like that, butit has that underlying theme,
that feel of all these layers,of there's a lot going on with
(51:46):
all the, all the sisters.
And they got everything fromlike affairs to murder to just
narcissistic behavior, tomystery detective.
I mean it's just all over theplace.
It's great it takes place, Ithink, maybe in Ireland or
Britain or England, so they havea little bit of an accent which
always appreciates.
Melissa (52:04):
So oh, yes, yeah, I need to turn my clothes
captioning on though for that.
Lori (52:08):
Yes, yes, follow along For sure, build your fluency while
you watch.
Yes, yes, okay, what do youlove to listen to?
Missy Purcell (52:20):
A podcast I mean, but I have a wide variety to.
I mean I listen to you guys,obviously, and I love the
Science of Reading podcast, butI mean on a personal level I got
into, I started listening to DrDeath a few years ago, which is
that terrible doctor that youknow paralyzed so much people in
Texas is awful, but that led itto a whole series of just
(52:41):
murder mystery podcasts.
Lori (52:44):
Weird things.
I get that.
It like dominoes and you'resuddenly like I don't know.
I'm listening to a weird murderin.
Missy Purcell (52:49):
North Carolina and like a family.
Lori (52:52):
I think, yeah, I'm with you, I do the same thing.
Missy Purcell (52:55):
Yeah, yeah.
So yeah, I'm pretty eclectic.
I will literally, I mean Ithink I also listen to like the
history of tequila and like sothat's very important.
I totally get that I think mostteachers would probably approve
of that one.
Melissa (53:12):
All right.
Last question why do you dowhat you love for education, and
specifically literacy?
Missy Purcell (53:19):
Yeah, Because I I think I said this earlier, but
I'm going to just repeat it Iwant Matthew's story to not be
unique and I desperately want itto not be repeated.
And we have a solution, and Iwant that word to get out and I
think the more people that knowit, the less chances of his
story being repeated we want tocreate I've said this before in
(53:41):
another blog, but there's thatwhole term of the Matthew effect
and but I want to rewrite thatand let the effect be that every
kid learns to read, that wedon't keep widening that gap.
So that's what pushes me Allthe kids left behind who still
aren't getting what they need.
Melissa (54:00):
Absolutely, and there are a lot of them, so I have
work to do.
Lori (54:06):
Yeah, lots of work.
Well then, we'll keep.
We'll keep elevating storieslike yours.
So thank you so much, and we'rejust so glad that you're here
with us and you keep writingyour blog, and please stay in
touch.
Missy Purcell (54:16):
Yeah Well, thank you guys for elevating our
voices.
And just literacy.
You guys are I said thisearlier but you're impacting
kids in ways you'll never know,so thank you.
Lori (54:27):
Well, thank you.
Melissa (54:28):
Thank you.
Lori (54:32):
Thanks for listening.
Literacy lovers, we release anew podcast episode every Friday
.
Sign up to stay connected withus at literacypodcastcom.
Melissa (54:43):
We're excited to create a space for community
discussion about our podcast.
We want to connect with ourlisteners and support you in
answering your questions, but wealso realize there are a lot of
other educators out there whohave great advice and experience
too.
Let's keep learning together inour Melissa and Lori Love
Literacy Podcast Facebook group,and be sure to follow us on
Instagram and Twitter.
Lori (55:04):
If the content in this episode helped you, share with a
fellow educator and teacherfriend.
Our literacy lover communitywelcomes educators at every
stage of their learning journey.
We're so glad you're here tolearn with us.
Melissa (55:17):
The views and opinions expressed by the hosts and
guests of the Melissa and LoriLove Literacy Podcast in this
episode are not necessarily theopinions of great minds PC or
its employees.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!