May 9, 2025 • 36 mins
Episode 225
How do we turn fluency instruction into something engaging, meaningful, and effective? Fourth-grade teacher Aaron Grossman has the answer.
In this episode, Aaron shares his fluency protocol, inspired by Chase Young’s work, that helps students develop prosody, comprehension, and confidence through Reader’s Theater. He walks us through his structured 5-day cycle, from introducing scripts to students writing their own, and how performance-based reading transforms fluency instruction.
You'll learn:
✅ How repeated reading and performance build fluency
✅ Where to find great scripts—or have students create their own
✅ How to support students at different reading levels
Whether you're looking for new ways to engage your students in fluency practice or practical strategies to help struggling readers, this episode is packed with actionable insights!
RESOURCES
- 3 Phases for Fluency by Aaron Grossman
- Tim Rasinski's Multidimensional Fluency Rubric
- Aaron's website: Just Two Teachers (click Readers Theater for links to scripts!)
- Chase Young's Readers Theater scripts
- Podcast Episode with Chase Young about Readers Theater
- Podcast Episode with Andrew Watson: "Reviewing Research with Healthy Skepticism"
- Books by Rosalind Flynn for Readers' Theater
We answer your questions about teaching reading in The Literacy 50-A Q&A Handbook for Teachers: Real-World Answers to Questions About Reading That Keep You Up at Night.
Grab free resources and episode alerts! Sign up for our email list at literacypodcast.com.
Join our community on Facebook, and follow us on Instagram, Facebook, & Twitter.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Melissa (00:01):
Today we're talking with Aaron Grossman, a fourth
grade teacher who uses aninnovative fluency protocol
built around Reader's Theater tohelp his students read
automatically, with expressionand comprehension.
Lori (00:14):
Aaron breaks down his five-day cycle, how he scaffolds
fluency instruction and howstudents go from practicing
scripts to writing their own.
If you're looking for a fun andeffective way to boost fluency
in your classroom, this episodeis for you.
Hi teacher friends, I'm Loriand I'm Melissa.
(00:35):
We are two educators who wantthe best for all kids, and we
know you do too.
Melissa (00:42):
We worked together in Baltimore when the district
adopted a new literacycurriculum.
Lori (00:47):
We realized there was so much more to learn about how to
teach reading and writing.
Melissa (00:52):
Lori, and I can't wait to keep learning with you today.
Hi, aaron, we are so excited tohave you on the podcast today
to talk about fluency, becauseit's one of my favorite topics
and I know Lori's favoritetopics too, so welcome.
Aaron Grossman (01:09):
Thank you, it's really great to be here.
Lori (01:11):
You are a fourth grade teacher and we know you
prioritize fluency instructionas really important time for
your students.
So can you tell us why fluencyis such a focus in your
classroom?
Aaron Grossman (01:23):
Well, I know that you probably have listeners
who've listened to many of themore profound guests that you've
had on your show, but we knowthat when kids can read fluently
, when they aren't disfluent,they're more likely to
comprehend what they've read.
Moreover, I just think it'sanother way of either building
background knowledge,reinforcing content and getting
(01:44):
kids into material in adifferent way.
Melissa (01:48):
Yeah, and we should say our teachers are our most
profound guests and I thinkeveryone would agree with that,
even those other guests.
All right, so we know you havea really cool protocol that you
told us all about.
So we want to know more aboutthe five-day cycle.
So we'll get into how thatfive-day cycle changes over the
year, but first just tell us,like, what do you do in this
(02:09):
five-day cycle for fluency?
Aaron Grossman (02:13):
Well, full attribution.
So I know that one of yourprevious guests was Dr Chase
Young, and so my protocol issort of a bit of a riff from
what he created.
So let me acknowledge that andalso acknowledge that he was a
primary teacher.
I'm working with intermediategrades, so that's a slight twist
.
But in general the protocollooks like the following, which
is on Monday morning I'll have aseries of scripts laid out for
(02:34):
my students and either Idistribute them or they sign up
for a script, just depending onthat particular week and how I'm
trying to change things up forthem.
So on Monday they get the script, they read all the way through
it and then they put it away.
On Tuesday they take back outthe script and then they meet
with whoever has the same scriptas them.
In general these are groups ofthree to five students, so at
(02:56):
that point they'll negotiateparts.
Once they've reconciled who haswhat part, they'll read all the
way through it with each otheragain and because of the scripts
I'm using, which we can returnto in a moment, they can get
through those scripts at leastonce or twice in that first
reading on Tuesday together, onWednesday and Thursday, friday.
That's largely about continuingto rereading it.
(03:17):
Now kids are prompting eachother, or I'm prompting them
with more prosody, greaterexpressions, moving this pace.
If there's words they can'tpronounce, I can assist them, or
one of the iPads can alsoanswer questions for them, and
then on Friday that's anopportunity to present so
they've done all that work andthen they get to share with
their classmates and, as younoted, not to get too far ahead
(03:38):
of us, but that presentation canalso change throughout the week
and throughout the course ofthe year.
Melissa (03:43):
So we're talking about Reader's Theater here.
Yes, yes.
Aaron Grossman (03:47):
Okay, just to name it Almost exclusively, and
I probably should have prompted.
I'm glad you said something.
Yeah, I use Reader's Theater asthe primary driver for the
fluency practice I do in myclassroom.
Melissa (03:56):
And I had one other question for you before we get
into this, like how you changeit throughout the year, which is
so exciting.
But when you give out thoseparts, I was really curious,
like, do you?
I could imagine that you likeplan out those parts and who
gets which parts and who's inwhich groups.
Am I right there, or is it justlike a random?
Aaron Grossman (04:15):
you get what you get.
So it's.
So, let's let's follow this.
So there's a there's abifurcation there.
So there's the scripts and thenthere's the parts.
Within the scripts, thestudents always negotiate who
gets what parts, and sometimesthat just becomes rock paper
scissors if they can't agree onwho's the narrator and who's one
of the protagonists.
With respect to actuallydistributing the scripts,
(04:37):
sometimes I will put the groupstogether myself.
In other instances I willliterally list the titles of the
scripts and how many parts arein each scripts, and the kids,
when they come in in the morning, they will sign up for the
script.
And then you know I'm surethere are listeners who are
familiar with technology whereyou can randomize groups and
that becomes your group.
(04:57):
So throughout the year, just tokeep things fresh, I have
different protocols for how Idecide to distribute those
scripts.
Lori (05:05):
And we're going to talk about them today, right?
Aaron Grossman (05:07):
Yes, of course.
Lori (05:09):
All right.
So you change this protocolover the course of the year, you
know, as students become moreand more familiar with the
routine.
So let's talk about the threephases and start with phase one.
But if you could just do like aquick overview and then we can
dive into phase one.
But if you could just do like aquick overview and then we can
dive into phase one.
Aaron Grossman (05:26):
Speaking very broadly, and I don't want to
think that this is always linear.
We can return to differentphases, but at the very
beginning of the school year andthis always takes at least
about a quarter I'm trying toget kids to understand one.
Why are we even doing fluency?
And I do break that down forthem.
I describe what fluency is andone of your previous guests, dr
(05:49):
Tim Rosinski, I use a rubric hecreated and so I help them
understand what that is.
And then that's when I willshare scripts and I'll also
introduce the protocol andwhat's important about the phase
one and I know that many ofyour listeners know this.
One of the great paradoxes forteachers is figuring out how am
(06:10):
I always moving forward whilealso filling any gaps for kids
who might come to our classroomwith some challenges, and so a
lot of those scripts that I'musing in the first quarter
they're either previewingcontent or they're revisiting
things that I just want to makesure they've mastered.
So I have scripts aroundsubject and predicates.
I have scripts around I'mfourth grade, I'm doing more
(06:33):
work around habitats andecosystems and I want to ensure
that they understand animaladaptations, which is a third
grade standard.
So the scripts can serve thatfunction as well.
Lori (06:46):
I love that.
That's so helpful.
Okay, that like really puts agood framework in my mind.
Aaron Grossman (06:50):
Yeah.
So we're building somegroundwork in the first phase
and then the second phase.
That's when we begin to iterate.
So at that point I've beendoing most of the writing.
I've been creating the scripts.
Now in phase two they startwriting scripts.
They're so familiar with thetemplate and the protocol and
the value of having a narratorand how a narrator can do the
exposition in a setting.
They just have a generalunderstanding.
(07:11):
So they're writing their ownscripts but I'm kind of, largely
speaking, telling them whichcontent they're going to be
writing that from.
So you know, 20 years ago I wasprobably doing jigsaws with
some of this.
Lori (07:30):
Instead.
Aaron Grossman (07:30):
Now what I'm using is the reader stator
script to present a chunk oftext to their classmates.
Oh, okay, we'll have to divemore into that.
Yes, and then also in phase two, we changed the performances.
So traditionally it was alwaysus performing with each other,
and now they're performing withother classmates.
Kids have been presenting somuch in the first quarter that
now they're seeing, oh, when westand a certain way, when we use
certain gestures, and so webecome more theatrical with some
of those script presentations.
And then in phase three, that'swhen we get much more creative.
(07:55):
So very recently we grabbedwriting from a second grade
classroom and then the task ofmy students was to take other
students' writing ofseven-year-olds and then turn it
into scripts and really bringto life what somebody else had
written for them.
And then there's certain otherthings we can do in that phase
as well, including just write ascript on something that is of
(08:16):
general interest to you, insteadof me being the person who's
telling you always what to writeabout.
Lori (08:20):
Okay, so let's backtrack now.
Thank you for that overview.
I think that's helpful.
Let's, now that we have thisframework in our mind, let's
backtrack to phase one.
How do you introduce fluency?
How do you set the expectationsfor students?
What skills do you focus on?
How do students apply them?
All this good stuff.
Aaron Grossman (08:40):
Well, let me start with slowly, so we don't
want it.
We know cognitive load theoryand you've had guests who've
spoken on that subject as well,so we don't want to overwhelm
them.
So, in general, the very firstthing is we describe just what
the value of fluency is, and atthat point it's how do we
present information that is atan appropriate rate and we're
(09:01):
reading accurately?
And that very first script I'llshare with them.
In general it's all of mystudents are reading from the
same script, so they can see howother students are actually
interpreting some of thatcontent.
Then we move into the rubricthat Dr Tim Brzezinski developed
and, I'll be honest, Ireformatted that a bit so it's a
(09:22):
little bit morestudent-friendly language.
And so we break down thingslike prosody and specifically
that includes appropriateexpression, pace, smoothness,
and we define what those are.
Lori (09:38):
Erin, can I jump in no-transcript?
Where can I get this rubric?
We will link it in the shownotes.
It's a fluency expressionrubric.
We liked it so much too, aaron,that Melissa and I linked it in
our book because it's such agreat rubric to help students
have that reflection onexpression.
Totally agree.
So anyway, just if you'relistening and you want this
rubric it's in the show notes.
(09:59):
Probably also we'll share itsomewhere on social media.
So go ahead, aaron.
Aaron Grossman (10:04):
And maybe I should also add the phases that
I'm describing for you.
I know that's going to belinked in the show notes and,
moreover, I actually linked tothe Rosinski rubric as well.
Lori (10:12):
Oh, you did, you put it right in there.
Yeah, yes, there you go, and Iand you alluded to it earlier.
Aaron Grossman (10:18):
At just two teacherscom, which is my own
sort of teacher website, there'sa whole sectionader's Theater,
and then you can see some morestudent friendly interpretations
of prosody as well.
Lori (10:29):
Yeah, Actually, we should tell the story real quick that
when we were thinking aboutguests for fluency, we saw you
on the Goyen Foundation'swebsite.
Right, Am I right, Melissa?
Yeah, and then Melissa was likeoh, Aaron, and I was like he's
just two teachers, and she'slike no, he's just one.
I was like I know that's hiswebsite.
Melissa (10:49):
Oh, his website, his website.
Aaron Grossman (10:52):
Anyway, now everybody has your website too,
yes, and everything's free there, which is not supposed to be
too self-referential, but if I'mgoing to allude to something, I
do want somebody who'sparticularly interested in this.
How do they bring it to lifevery quickly, without any kind
of expense.
And so, having defined prosody,having performed one time all
the way through, that's when Istart taking different scripts
(11:14):
and putting them out and we cango.
What are some of the scriptsI've developed?
And I'll be perfectly frank,most of these are being
developed with large languagemodels in which I can put in
very specific parameters around.
You know this needs to be 500words long.
That's how I can get to scriptsthat can be read all the way
through in about five minutes.
You know I can define thenumber of parts, I can include
(11:34):
key vocabulary.
But interestingly, you know westart in August and one of the
very first scripts that my kidsstart working with is around
indoor recess games inanticipation of smoke days and
then later snow days.
Instead of me teaching them thegames, we are doing what I, you
know, steal from Travis Kelseytwo things at once.
(11:57):
So we're developing fluency,we're learning different indoor
recess games.
Melissa (12:02):
Nice.
I love that Practical but alsowith a purpose.
Aaron Grossman (12:07):
And again, I just think you have a lot of
teachers who are listening,which is well, how do we do this
?
How do we always keep thatinstructional time for directive
?
So for me, it's never justabout fluency, it's always in
conjunction with something else.
Melissa (12:18):
Right and you're saying , like you start with something
like that to get them into theroutines, you wouldn't be doing
indoor recess kind of things forthe whole year.
That's just the initial.
You know, we're just gettingcomfortable with routines, so
this is something that's an easylift for them.
Aaron Grossman (12:35):
Exactly, and they're excited.
And then you know that's anopportunity.
From now that we've learned howto play scrambled eggs, let's
just do it now.
And it's, you know, part ofthat community culture building
that we are trying to getestablished in the first month.
Lori (12:49):
Yeah, and you mentioned that they that they work on
learning, like what a narratoris, what the exposition is, what
the rising action means and thefalling action.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout that and just explain how
you teach that within thebeginning of the year?
Aaron Grossman (13:08):
Well, my guess is I'm probably teaching it a
lot, like many of your listenersare teaching it, which is,
largely speaking, it's drivenfrom one of our curricular
resource I'm using.
But it affords me anotheropportunity, just through some
repetition and additionalexperiences, to say, within this
reader's theater script, can weidentify what the setting is
(13:29):
and what is the problem?
Because we know that we shouldhave some kind of problem or
rising action at the verybeginning, otherwise we're just
going to lose our reader.
And so for me it's initiallyexplicitly finding those links
and then later it's putting thelift on the students so they can
find those, and then much laterdown the line, when we're in
sort of that phase three, whenwe're providing fear feedback on
a particular script thatsomebody or a group of students
(13:51):
have written.
Well, what kind of feedback arewe providing?
And so they should be able topull those things out At this
point.
If you walked up to any one ofmy students, they could tell you
an introduction alwaysconcludes character setting.
It's some kind of problemarising action, like it's such
muscle memory at this point.
But that is just born of all ofthese additional experiences
(14:13):
they get with some of theseliterary terms.
Melissa (14:16):
All right, are we ready to talk about phase two?
Aaron Grossman (14:19):
Absolutely.
Melissa (14:20):
So I'm most curious about this is the phase where
they start to write their ownscripts.
When you said it, I was likethat feels a little daunting,
potentially right.
That's a big jump from them youknow reading the scripts that
you've had them reading towriting their own.
Now I know they have a lot oftime that they're spending in
scripts, so they're familiarwith it.
(14:42):
But what do you do to get themto make that leap to writing
their own scripts?
How do you support them?
Aaron Grossman (14:50):
So let's go back to so.
In phase one I said everybodyhas a shared experience and
you're nodding your head and Iknow my listeners would be too
which is just the value of ashared experience, because then
we can continue to draw fromthat shared experience.
Continue to draw from thatshared experience.
So if, quite literally, thefirst script we ever read
together is something we've alldone, then when we do our very
(15:10):
first script writing, I'll givethem a piece of content that
we're all going to change intosome kind of reader's theater
script.
So I think the very first thingfor that, the very first thing
that we ever used as sourcematerial, was around energy.
That happened to be where wewere with science.
So they took one of our outcomes.
I put them in groups of threeand each triad wrote a script
(15:34):
and they have a template forthat.
So it just sort of tells themwe need to have a setting.
What's character one, charactertwo?
So there is some pretty firmguardrails in the first script
writing.
And then within that and Istole this from one of your
previous guests, lauren prophet,who's a fourth grade teacher um
, I hadn't thought of itinitially, but they rotate the
(15:55):
pen as well, which becomes a keypart of that activity.
So if the first characterspeaking, I hand the pen and
they write their part for thesecond character, and this goes
back to two things at once.
So we're listening or we'refocusing on some pretty soft
skills.
You know that social awarenessor self-awareness Are we engaged
(16:17):
in what our other kids or whatour classmates are contributing,
and then from that we tease outa script.
Melissa (16:25):
What was that called?
Aaron Grossman (16:26):
Aaron, the where we're rotating the pen rotating
the pen?
Lori (16:28):
I think it's.
Is it rotating the pen or takethe pen?
I didn't hear.
Aaron Grossman (16:32):
Well, probably either one.
I tell my kids we have torotate the pen, but probably
take the pen.
It's probably a very similarriff.
Melissa (16:38):
Pass the pen.
We can call it what we want.
That has a nice ring.
Lori (16:42):
Okay, all right, can you talk a little bit more about
that?
So we're just real clear onwhat that is Like.
They write something and thenthey pass it.
Aaron Grossman (16:49):
Yep, okay.
So if you could picture and wecan link to some of these as
well Picture a template where,so one of them is what's called
a homework outline, so the veryI actually have written the
first three or four lines.
So character one you know saysI'm struggling with you know the
following assignment I shouldcall the homework outline and
then all of them readsimultaneously call 1-800, you
(17:12):
know, homework outline.
And then the first next personwho speaks says hello, this is
the homework outline.
And then the first next personwho speaks says hello, this is
the homework outline.
What question do you have?
And then that prompts the nextperson to say well, what
question would you be have about?
this particular source materialand then from there they're off.
And then their task is rightMind the text for whatever
relevant evidence they need toshare with their audience.
(17:34):
And then how do we wrap this upand continue to engage
whoever's listening to whatwe've created?
Lori (17:40):
So are they writing that about energy, like they could do
this homework hotline scriptabout energy.
Aaron Grossman (17:46):
They could do it about energy or any topic I
mean, really we did one, youknow, when we first learned how
to add and subtract fractionswith unlike denominators.
That turned into a script.
So how do we turn an algorithmand it's something that we can
share with other stakeholdersand I know that, again, we can
be incredibly creative with this.
But for me, again, a point ofemphasis is these are always
(18:11):
anchored in something that I canfeel like I'm doing two things
at once with.
Always anchored in somethingthat I can feel like I'm doing
two things at once with.
Melissa (18:17):
Yeah, and I really liked that one that you, like
you, you gave them the frame ofthe.
You know the, the, where arelike, where are we?
We're in this, this homeworkhotline, you know like.
You gave them that.
So they're not starting fromcomplete scratch Like I don't
know where, how, what do I evendo for a script on energy?
You know Um.
So you, you gave them thatjumpstart and a little bit of a
structure with the questions andanswers.
(18:39):
That I would imagine gives themmore of a solid place to then
just jump into the content andbe able to bring that in as they
finish that script.
Aaron Grossman (18:49):
And I'm glad you note that, and also I just call
out the fact that the firsttemplates I ever saw were from
Rosalind Flynn, and so she's anauthor.
You know you can find her bookand I know that she's got some
other content you can findonline.
But again, attribution, becauseI just think you know, like
many classroom teachers,inspired by other people, and
then we just sort of make it ourown.
Melissa (19:10):
Writing it down.
We'll link it in the show notes, all right.
So, aaron, is there anythingelse you wanted to share about
phase two?
As terms of you know you sharedhow you get them into writing
this script with support, isthere anything you do then to
change it over the course ofphase two so they're a little
more independent?
Aaron Grossman (19:27):
So let me describe two other things that
make phase two a little bitdifferent than phase one.
The first is the presentationsthemselves.
So instead of always justpresenting in front of their
classmates now, either I farmthem out to other.
Always just presenting in frontof their classmates now, either
I farm them out to otherclassrooms where they share some
of their content, or we inviteother classrooms in to receive
some of these scripts.
The other part and I hope I'mclear here the students
(19:54):
themselves will begin toevaluate their classmates, not
at the individual but rather asa group presentation.
So picture somebody has justdone a presentation on goods and
services, so one of our socialstudies standards.
The participants will evaluatesmoothness, pace expression,
(20:21):
evaluate smoothness, paceexpression.
And so then it's not justalways me who is looking for
these things, but they get topay very close attention to what
makes a strong presentation.
Melissa (20:28):
And that's back to that same rubric that you went over
with them at the very beginning.
Aaron Grossman (20:33):
At the very beginning.
Lori (20:34):
yes, Aaron, do they ever evaluate the content of the
scripts?
Aaron Grossman (20:41):
You know at that point, honestly no, because
I've probably, if there'ssomething that's a little bit
off.
Lori (20:46):
You've already addressed it, yeah.
Aaron Grossman (20:47):
I've addressed that, where you get to
evaluation of the content itself, is then jumping into phase
three, where there are some pureediting, so that we're clear on
those things that we know areincluded in a strong reader's
data script.
Lori (21:00):
Okay, well, let's just go there.
Then I feel like phase three.
I'm like what else could we do?
It feels like we're at thefinal frontier.
So when students are writingtheir own scripts, what happens
after that?
Right, I'm hearing you say peerediting.
I'm interested to hear whatother tricks of the trade you've
got.
Aaron Grossman (21:20):
Well, and I again, you know it's like you
know.
So we can all picture, at thebeginning of the year there we
haven't had as much structure asroutines and places that we
would like, but by the timewe're getting close to spring
break, one, you know, ourtolerance for our students,
tolerance for boredom, you know,wanes quickly, especially, I
think, you know, a generationthat is so used to endorphin
Russians from scrolling, and soit's like how do we continue to
(21:43):
promote fluency and keeping asgauging as possible for the kids
that we're working with, and sothe opportunities include one?
They're writing their ownscripts.
It shouldn't always be me whois the one that's doing the
editing.
So then we just use a pureediting protocol that I'm sure
many of the teachers listeninghave already in place.
Mine is a riff from two localeducators a guy named mark
(22:06):
medcalf, another woman who's nowretired, kitty gillette, where
they, you know, sit side by sideand there are some pretty firm
guardrails.
Again, on what are we lookingfor?
We can, can't look foreverything.
So do they have an introductionwith those characters setting
and rising action or some kindof problem?
Does it make sense how weultimately get to our conclusion
?
There are some obviousconvention pieces that we can
(22:29):
look for.
But, largely speaking, does itmake sense and is this worth
sharing with your classmates?
And I think I alluded to thisearlier, we're also now just
grabbing things from otherclassrooms.
It is incredibly charming whenmy kids take student writing in
the primary grades, turn it intoa script and then get to
present it for the kid.
(22:49):
Who is the author they light up.
They must love that, Yep, andit builds relationships.
So that's another opportunityin that third phase that wasn't
afforded in this first couple.
Lori (23:02):
Do you ever do a buddy read script where like they
might have something that theyounger kids can decode, or am I
giving you a cool idea now?
Aaron Grossman (23:11):
I think you're giving me a cool idea.
To be fairly honest with you, Ihaven't done it that way, but
that's great to be fairly honestwith you, I haven't done it
that way, but that's great.
Lori (23:18):
I was thinking a lot about how, when you said, it builds
relationships.
Often in schools they do likethe classroom buddy readers,
where the older students read tothe younger students.
But that would be really coolfor the younger kids to be like
wow, this is my work.
That was changed into a script,so cool.
And maybe there's like a coupleof words that they could say or
repeat over and over again.
That's so awesome.
I love that.
(23:38):
I love the concept.
It's very cool.
Aaron Grossman (23:41):
And I love you volunteering that, and so if
people go to my classroom page,please reach out, because I just
think I'm always blown away bywhat teachers do with research
and how they iterate and make itstronger.
I just think we don't tap intothat wealth of knowledge as well
as we should.
But I am always just again,like I alluded to the law and
(24:01):
profit who just very simply saidhow come you don't have them
rotate the pen or pass the pen?
Melissa (24:07):
I was just thinking that you know you've taken a lot
of research, like you saidChase Young's research and Tim
Ruzinski's research.
You've taken a lot of thisresearch but you're still making
it yours as a teacher, right,and there's not.
The researchers aren't going tosay stuff, things like that,
like pass the pen or to, youknow, create, create the scripts
in a certain way.
You know they say that thisrepeated reading is great, that
(24:28):
Reader's Theater has some impactfor students, but all this is
this is why we talk to teachersis so that you know you get all
of these really great ideas forhow to actually make it real in
a classroom and make it work forkids and to build on that a
little bit, which is, I thinkresearchers are really well in
general.
Aaron Grossman (24:46):
Right, I think there are three things we're
always attending to, which iswhy, how and with what.
And researchers and academicsare fabulous with why and
they're really good at directingpeople with what.
Academics are fabulous with whyand they're really good at
directing people with what.
Um, but how is what?
Teachers and I think again toto borrow from rosinski and
young who talk about that artand science and how you marry
those two guys, the how is somuch art?
(25:07):
Yeah, um, and so you know, yourecently had on andrew watson,
who talked about retrievalpractice and, I think, about the
value of these readers.
Theater scripts are another wayof addressing retrieval
practice in a way that doesn'tfeel really obvious to the kids
but clearly is of value to themAll right, aaron, we have a few
really practical questions foryou.
Melissa (25:29):
You know teachers need to know the logistical.
How do I do this?
You've mentioned a few timesalready, but I just want to like
stamp it when you're writingthe scripts or when you're
giving the scripts to students.
Where do you find them or howdo you create them?
Aaron Grossman (25:44):
So I am using generative AI.
I won't call it a specific one,but what I've learned over time
is it's really helpful for acouple of reasons.
A lot of the reader's datacontent that I was shared with
me, especially as part of largeadoptions.
There are two problems that Inoticed with it.
One they're too long, Like howdo you get to repeatedly reading
(26:08):
and leveraging the research onthat when it takes kids 45
minutes just to get through areader's theater script, through
a reader's theater script?
So that was one reason tomotivate me.
And the other part was I wantedthings that were always really
tailored to things I wascurrently doing in my classroom.
So, using AI, I will pick out apiece of content and then I will
(26:30):
say I need 400 to 500 words.
I need four parts.
Every part has to speak thesame number of words.
I will even pick out keyvocabulary words from things
that we're studying and then I'mable to embed that vocabulary
in the script itself.
And one more reference to oneof your previous shows but you
had Blythe Anderson on whotalked about emphasizing a word
(26:54):
and how.
That's one of these reallystrong talk moves we can do with
vocabulary.
So now I will bold or italicizesome words within the script
and that prompts the kids to saythis is the word that I need to
emphasize for my audience.
So what's fresh right now is Iwrote a bunch on economics, so
here's goods and services We'lltalk about that.
Or entrepreneur, and you hearthe kid really emphasize that
(27:16):
word and then the definitionthat follows, um, and then that
word entrepreneur might appearthree or four times all, which
is reasonably easy to do with aitools.
Um, and there's one other verysubtle thing and I want to be
clear about this so you knowother tips which is obviously we
have kids in our classroom arehighly impacted.
(27:37):
Maybe they come with an SLD ofsome kind, so either they're
working with anotherprofessional to do some kind of
repeated reading, if you're veryfortunate, maybe families are
able to afford some additionalsupport.
But in instances where theyquite literally just can't even
access you know something with aLuxile of about 800,.
You know something with aLuxile of about 800,.
That's when you can usegenerative AI to say can you
(28:05):
make this one part completelydecodable using only the
following vowel patterns ordiphthongs, whatever it is that
you might have been studyingwith that particular student.
Melissa (28:10):
Yeah, and a very good tip for teachers who teach lower
grade levels right that theycould do that same thing to
create their scripts from whatthey've already taught in their
phonics lessons.
Aaron Grossman (28:21):
Yes, so those are two biggie ones.
And then the other one that Ijust I'm sure people know, which
is when I say that sometimeskids get to just sign up for the
scripts.
Sometimes we know there arecertain kids who just cannot
sign up for the same script forany number of reasons.
So I do want to acknowledgethis.
I don't have every year kidswho just all magically work well
together.
Lori (28:42):
So we didn't think you were like a unicorn in this
world, don't worry, all right.
So you kind of alluded to thisidea of differentiation, but I
want to give you the opportunityto talk a little bit more about
it.
Like, if we do have, you know,your fourth grade, if we do have
a fourth grader who'sstruggling, who's reading
several grade levels behind,what else do you do?
(29:03):
I mean, I'm hearing you say youmanipulate the words in the
script a little bit, but isthere anything else?
Do you make it shorter?
What else happens?
Aaron Grossman (29:12):
And that depends , you know, really specifically
on the child, and we can getinto IEPs.
So by the time they're infourth grade, largely speaking,
there are some things in placefor that child.
So that's a document you canrefer back to.
So if repeated reading andhaving additional opportunities
where there's work with thescript don't work, you can again
using generative AI.
(29:33):
If I said this, one's 500 wordsand everybody's speaking the
same number of words, perhapsinstead you say I need one part
that's limited to 18 words, sothey get to participate fully,
they get to be part of thatcommunity.
But here the tweak is they justhave to read less and so the
lift on them is a little bitlower than it might be for some
(29:54):
of the other students.
But I think you know again,it's nuanced because as best as
possible we can, you know, Ithink we all know we want them
engaged with grade level content, but sometimes we have to put.
Sometimes that's verychallenging.
Lori (30:08):
Yeah, I like the idea of that.
They're still participating inthe activity and also tracking
and hearing that fluent readingand I would think we would
scaffold up to work on morewords as time goes on, so I love
thinking about that.
Aaron Grossman (30:26):
And let me volunteer one more, which again
I'm sure there are people in theaudience just going how come
you didn't say that first, whichis sometimes you just choral
read.
So all four participants willbe reading along together, and
so that's another supporterscaffold.
Also point of research.
Melissa (30:42):
Also very easy.
Aaron Grossman (30:44):
Yes, jinx.
Melissa (30:45):
Jinx, I'm just wondering if you do any kind of
fluency assessments throughoutthe year and does that play any
role in you know your groupingsor anything like that?
And I'm also just curious ifyou see improvement in fluency
from all this work that they do.
Aaron Grossman (31:03):
So I do the.
I certainly do a readingcurriculum-based measure, and I
do it with all of my students.
So some are probed morefrequently, but for all of my
students, at the very least, I'mdoing it monthly.
So that's one way of trackinghow kids are moving.
And the other part, again, isusing the Rosinski piece.
I do keep track of those scores.
(31:24):
So we were talking about.
You know, if people choose topull it up, they'll see a matrix
with four categories scores of1, 2, 3, 4.
And so that's another measure.
Scores of one, two, three, four, and so that's another measure.
And so I will share those with,certainly at parent conferences
, so that they understand thatfluency is more than just moving
quickly and accurately across apiece of paper, that there's
(31:46):
more to it, and so they have alanguage to work with their kids
if they so choose, if theychoose to promote that outcome
in their house.
Lori (31:54):
Okay.
So I'm wondering if you'd liketo give any pieces of advice to
teachers.
Listening, I feel like you'veshared so many amazing tidbits
but, as you're thinking aboutclosing this podcast out, what's
one piece of advice, two piecesof advice you'd give to
teachers looking to reallystrengthen their fluency
instruction in their classrooms?
Aaron Grossman (32:16):
Well, I'm going to be a cliche right now which
is it's that leap of faith whichis the first ones are.
They don't go particularly well.
You know they're awkwardbecause everybody's getting used
to that, especially when we'retalking about August where, if
kids are still kind of riskadverse, you haven't established
that culture and so, like somany other things, you got to
(32:38):
kind of stick to it and thenyou'll know your room, you'll
know what they need to besuccessful with this.
So I always think you know, doit at least two or three times.
So that's the first one, andthe other one is again, the real
value and utility of shortscripts.
So Dr Young talks about this,but again, just to keep
(33:00):
reinforcing this idea of ifwe're not getting to repeated
reading, we're not going to getto the kind of prosody that
we're hoping for.
So those performances on Fridaycan become pretty flat Again if
they're just logging throughsomething and they've only had a
chance to go through it maybeonce or twice before then
sharing it whole class.
Lori (33:18):
All right.
So if we're looking on the JustTwo Teachers website, what can
we find?
Our listeners, I'm sure theywant to know.
Aaron Grossman (33:25):
Well, there's a lot on the Just Two Teachers
website and it's just becauseI've worn a number of different
hats, but there is a Reader'sTheater section.
So if they go to the websitethey'll see a frame.
There's a reader's theatersection.
You know I've because I'vetaught multiple grades and I've
been doing this for a while now.
I mentioned indoor recess games, but you know I do ones around
(33:46):
Aesop fables because we wantthat background knowledge.
So again, I could just keepreading to them.
But here's another way ofbuilding understanding of Aesop
fables or famous fairy tales,because we know there are
communities in which kids arejust unfamiliar with these
stories but then there'sillusions to them constantly as
we get to intermediate gradecontent and especially middle
school literature.
(34:06):
There's lots of stuff aroundscience.
I do a whole thing on thelanguage standards, I have a
bunch of content on math, and soI've done the best, if I can,
to really be very broad in whatthese scripts are addressing.
So that would be one thing.
And then they're also going tofind all kinds of tools around
(34:27):
inclusion, around PBIS, buteverything that they would find
there is absolutely free.
My entire first week ofinstruction is posted there.
And then one last piece, whichis you asked about the protocol.
At the very start of this,there is a short five-minute
video of my kids sort of engagedin the protocol and reflecting
on it, so if people wanted tosee what that looked like from a
(34:48):
student's perspective, theycould see that.
Melissa (34:50):
I was going to say that , if you didn't, I just found
that video today.
Lori (34:54):
That's amazing, oh my gosh .
Well, it sounds like we'll belinking your website in the show
notes, among other places.
So thank you so much for thisamazing work that you do and the
contribution that you give toyour students and also this
literacy learning communityevery day.
Thank you.
Aaron Grossman (35:10):
Thank you and sincerely thank you very much
for having me on.
This was really fabulous.
And sincerely thank you verymuch for having me on.
This was really fabulous.
Melissa (35:18):
To stay connected with us, sign up for our email list
at literacypodcastcom, join ourFacebook group and follow us on
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Lori (35:29):
If this episode resonated with you, take a moment to share
with a teacher friend or leaveus a five-star rating and review
on Apple Podcasts.
Melissa (35:38):
Just a quick reminder that the views and opinions
expressed by the hosts andguests of the Melissa and Lori
Love Literacy Podcast are notnecessarily the opinions of
Great Minds PBC or its employees.
Lori (35:50):
We appreciate you so much and we're so glad you're here to
learn with us.
Today we're talking with Aaron Grossman, a fourth
grade teacher who uses aninnovative fluency protocol
built around Reader's Theater tohelp his students read
automatically, with expressionand comprehension.
Lori (00:14):
Aaron breaks down his five-day cycle, how he scaffolds
fluency instruction and howstudents go from practicing
scripts to writing their own.
If you're looking for a fun andeffective way to boost fluency
in your classroom, this episodeis for you.
Hi teacher friends, I'm Loriand I'm Melissa.
(00:35):
We are two educators who wantthe best for all kids, and we
know you do too.
Melissa (00:42):
We worked together in Baltimore when the district
adopted a new literacycurriculum.
Lori (00:47):
We realized there was so much more to learn about how to
teach reading and writing.
Melissa (00:52):
Lori, and I can't wait to keep learning with you today.
Hi, aaron, we are so excited tohave you on the podcast today
to talk about fluency, becauseit's one of my favorite topics
and I know Lori's favoritetopics too, so welcome.
Aaron Grossman (01:09):
Thank you, it's really great to be here.
Lori (01:11):
You are a fourth grade teacher and we know you
prioritize fluency instructionas really important time for
your students.
So can you tell us why fluencyis such a focus in your
classroom?
Aaron Grossman (01:23):
Well, I know that you probably have listeners
who've listened to many of themore profound guests that you've
had on your show, but we knowthat when kids can read fluently
, when they aren't disfluent,they're more likely to
comprehend what they've read.
Moreover, I just think it'sanother way of either building
background knowledge,reinforcing content and getting
(01:44):
kids into material in adifferent way.
Melissa (01:48):
Yeah, and we should say our teachers are our most
profound guests and I thinkeveryone would agree with that,
even those other guests.
All right, so we know you havea really cool protocol that you
told us all about.
So we want to know more aboutthe five-day cycle.
So we'll get into how thatfive-day cycle changes over the
year, but first just tell us,like, what do you do in this
(02:09):
five-day cycle for fluency?
Aaron Grossman (02:13):
Well, full attribution.
So I know that one of yourprevious guests was Dr Chase
Young, and so my protocol issort of a bit of a riff from
what he created.
So let me acknowledge that andalso acknowledge that he was a
primary teacher.
I'm working with intermediategrades, so that's a slight twist
.
But in general the protocollooks like the following, which
is on Monday morning I'll have aseries of scripts laid out for
(02:34):
my students and either Idistribute them or they sign up
for a script, just depending onthat particular week and how I'm
trying to change things up forthem.
So on Monday they get the script, they read all the way through
it and then they put it away.
On Tuesday they take back outthe script and then they meet
with whoever has the same scriptas them.
In general these are groups ofthree to five students, so at
(02:56):
that point they'll negotiateparts.
Once they've reconciled who haswhat part, they'll read all the
way through it with each otheragain and because of the scripts
I'm using, which we can returnto in a moment, they can get
through those scripts at leastonce or twice in that first
reading on Tuesday together, onWednesday and Thursday, friday.
That's largely about continuingto rereading it.
(03:17):
Now kids are prompting eachother, or I'm prompting them
with more prosody, greaterexpressions, moving this pace.
If there's words they can'tpronounce, I can assist them, or
one of the iPads can alsoanswer questions for them, and
then on Friday that's anopportunity to present so
they've done all that work andthen they get to share with
their classmates and, as younoted, not to get too far ahead
(03:38):
of us, but that presentation canalso change throughout the week
and throughout the course ofthe year.
Melissa (03:43):
So we're talking about Reader's Theater here.
Yes, yes.
Aaron Grossman (03:47):
Okay, just to name it Almost exclusively, and
I probably should have prompted.
I'm glad you said something.
Yeah, I use Reader's Theater asthe primary driver for the
fluency practice I do in myclassroom.
Melissa (03:56):
And I had one other question for you before we get
into this, like how you changeit throughout the year, which is
so exciting.
But when you give out thoseparts, I was really curious,
like, do you?
I could imagine that you likeplan out those parts and who
gets which parts and who's inwhich groups.
Am I right there, or is it justlike a random?
Aaron Grossman (04:15):
you get what you get.
So it's.
So, let's let's follow this.
So there's a there's abifurcation there.
So there's the scripts and thenthere's the parts.
Within the scripts, thestudents always negotiate who
gets what parts, and sometimesthat just becomes rock paper
scissors if they can't agree onwho's the narrator and who's one
of the protagonists.
With respect to actuallydistributing the scripts,
(04:37):
sometimes I will put the groupstogether myself.
In other instances I willliterally list the titles of the
scripts and how many parts arein each scripts, and the kids,
when they come in in the morning, they will sign up for the
script.
And then you know I'm surethere are listeners who are
familiar with technology whereyou can randomize groups and
that becomes your group.
(04:57):
So throughout the year, just tokeep things fresh, I have
different protocols for how Idecide to distribute those
scripts.
Lori (05:05):
And we're going to talk about them today, right?
Aaron Grossman (05:07):
Yes, of course.
Lori (05:09):
All right.
So you change this protocolover the course of the year, you
know, as students become moreand more familiar with the
routine.
So let's talk about the threephases and start with phase one.
But if you could just do like aquick overview and then we can
dive into phase one.
But if you could just do like aquick overview and then we can
dive into phase one.
Aaron Grossman (05:26):
Speaking very broadly, and I don't want to
think that this is always linear.
We can return to differentphases, but at the very
beginning of the school year andthis always takes at least
about a quarter I'm trying toget kids to understand one.
Why are we even doing fluency?
And I do break that down forthem.
I describe what fluency is andone of your previous guests, dr
(05:49):
Tim Rosinski, I use a rubric hecreated and so I help them
understand what that is.
And then that's when I willshare scripts and I'll also
introduce the protocol andwhat's important about the phase
one and I know that many ofyour listeners know this.
One of the great paradoxes forteachers is figuring out how am
(06:10):
I always moving forward whilealso filling any gaps for kids
who might come to our classroomwith some challenges, and so a
lot of those scripts that I'musing in the first quarter
they're either previewingcontent or they're revisiting
things that I just want to makesure they've mastered.
So I have scripts aroundsubject and predicates.
I have scripts around I'mfourth grade, I'm doing more
(06:33):
work around habitats andecosystems and I want to ensure
that they understand animaladaptations, which is a third
grade standard.
So the scripts can serve thatfunction as well.
Lori (06:46):
I love that.
That's so helpful.
Okay, that like really puts agood framework in my mind.
Aaron Grossman (06:50):
Yeah.
So we're building somegroundwork in the first phase
and then the second phase.
That's when we begin to iterate.
So at that point I've beendoing most of the writing.
I've been creating the scripts.
Now in phase two they startwriting scripts.
They're so familiar with thetemplate and the protocol and
the value of having a narratorand how a narrator can do the
exposition in a setting.
They just have a generalunderstanding.
(07:11):
So they're writing their ownscripts but I'm kind of, largely
speaking, telling them whichcontent they're going to be
writing that from.
So you know, 20 years ago I wasprobably doing jigsaws with
some of this.
Lori (07:30):
Instead.
Aaron Grossman (07:30):
Now what I'm using is the reader stator
script to present a chunk oftext to their classmates.
Oh, okay, we'll have to divemore into that.
Yes, and then also in phase two, we changed the performances.
So traditionally it was alwaysus performing with each other,
and now they're performing withother classmates.
Kids have been presenting somuch in the first quarter that
now they're seeing, oh, when westand a certain way, when we use
certain gestures, and so webecome more theatrical with some
of those script presentations.
And then in phase three, that'swhen we get much more creative.
(07:55):
So very recently we grabbedwriting from a second grade
classroom and then the task ofmy students was to take other
students' writing ofseven-year-olds and then turn it
into scripts and really bringto life what somebody else had
written for them.
And then there's certain otherthings we can do in that phase
as well, including just write ascript on something that is of
(08:16):
general interest to you, insteadof me being the person who's
telling you always what to writeabout.
Lori (08:20):
Okay, so let's backtrack now.
Thank you for that overview.
I think that's helpful.
Let's, now that we have thisframework in our mind, let's
backtrack to phase one.
How do you introduce fluency?
How do you set the expectationsfor students?
What skills do you focus on?
How do students apply them?
All this good stuff.
Aaron Grossman (08:40):
Well, let me start with slowly, so we don't
want it.
We know cognitive load theoryand you've had guests who've
spoken on that subject as well,so we don't want to overwhelm
them.
So, in general, the very firstthing is we describe just what
the value of fluency is, and atthat point it's how do we
present information that is atan appropriate rate and we're
(09:01):
reading accurately?
And that very first script I'llshare with them.
In general it's all of mystudents are reading from the
same script, so they can see howother students are actually
interpreting some of thatcontent.
Then we move into the rubricthat Dr Tim Brzezinski developed
and, I'll be honest, Ireformatted that a bit so it's a
(09:22):
little bit morestudent-friendly language.
And so we break down thingslike prosody and specifically
that includes appropriateexpression, pace, smoothness,
and we define what those are.
Lori (09:38):
Erin, can I jump in no-transcript?
Where can I get this rubric?
We will link it in the shownotes.
It's a fluency expressionrubric.
We liked it so much too, aaron,that Melissa and I linked it in
our book because it's such agreat rubric to help students
have that reflection onexpression.
Totally agree.
So anyway, just if you'relistening and you want this
rubric it's in the show notes.
(09:59):
Probably also we'll share itsomewhere on social media.
So go ahead, aaron.
Aaron Grossman (10:04):
And maybe I should also add the phases that
I'm describing for you.
I know that's going to belinked in the show notes and,
moreover, I actually linked tothe Rosinski rubric as well.
Lori (10:12):
Oh, you did, you put it right in there.
Yeah, yes, there you go, and Iand you alluded to it earlier.
Aaron Grossman (10:18):
At just two teacherscom, which is my own
sort of teacher website, there'sa whole sectionader's Theater,
and then you can see some morestudent friendly interpretations
of prosody as well.
Lori (10:29):
Yeah, Actually, we should tell the story real quick that
when we were thinking aboutguests for fluency, we saw you
on the Goyen Foundation'swebsite.
Right, Am I right, Melissa?
Yeah, and then Melissa was likeoh, Aaron, and I was like he's
just two teachers, and she'slike no, he's just one.
I was like I know that's hiswebsite.
Melissa (10:49):
Oh, his website, his website.
Aaron Grossman (10:52):
Anyway, now everybody has your website too,
yes, and everything's free there, which is not supposed to be
too self-referential, but if I'mgoing to allude to something, I
do want somebody who'sparticularly interested in this.
How do they bring it to lifevery quickly, without any kind
of expense.
And so, having defined prosody,having performed one time all
the way through, that's when Istart taking different scripts
(11:14):
and putting them out and we cango.
What are some of the scriptsI've developed?
And I'll be perfectly frank,most of these are being
developed with large languagemodels in which I can put in
very specific parameters around.
You know this needs to be 500words long.
That's how I can get to scriptsthat can be read all the way
through in about five minutes.
You know I can define thenumber of parts, I can include
(11:34):
key vocabulary.
But interestingly, you know westart in August and one of the
very first scripts that my kidsstart working with is around
indoor recess games inanticipation of smoke days and
then later snow days.
Instead of me teaching them thegames, we are doing what I, you
know, steal from Travis Kelseytwo things at once.
(11:57):
So we're developing fluency,we're learning different indoor
recess games.
Melissa (12:02):
Nice.
I love that Practical but alsowith a purpose.
Aaron Grossman (12:07):
And again, I just think you have a lot of
teachers who are listening,which is well, how do we do this
?
How do we always keep thatinstructional time for directive
?
So for me, it's never justabout fluency, it's always in
conjunction with something else.
Melissa (12:18):
Right and you're saying , like you start with something
like that to get them into theroutines, you wouldn't be doing
indoor recess kind of things forthe whole year.
That's just the initial.
You know, we're just gettingcomfortable with routines, so
this is something that's an easylift for them.
Aaron Grossman (12:35):
Exactly, and they're excited.
And then you know that's anopportunity.
From now that we've learned howto play scrambled eggs, let's
just do it now.
And it's, you know, part ofthat community culture building
that we are trying to getestablished in the first month.
Lori (12:49):
Yeah, and you mentioned that they that they work on
learning, like what a narratoris, what the exposition is, what
the rising action means and thefalling action.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout that and just explain how
you teach that within thebeginning of the year?
Aaron Grossman (13:08):
Well, my guess is I'm probably teaching it a
lot, like many of your listenersare teaching it, which is,
largely speaking, it's drivenfrom one of our curricular
resource I'm using.
But it affords me anotheropportunity, just through some
repetition and additionalexperiences, to say, within this
reader's theater script, can weidentify what the setting is
(13:29):
and what is the problem?
Because we know that we shouldhave some kind of problem or
rising action at the verybeginning, otherwise we're just
going to lose our reader.
And so for me it's initiallyexplicitly finding those links
and then later it's putting thelift on the students so they can
find those, and then much laterdown the line, when we're in
sort of that phase three, whenwe're providing fear feedback on
a particular script thatsomebody or a group of students
(13:51):
have written.
Well, what kind of feedback arewe providing?
And so they should be able topull those things out At this
point.
If you walked up to any one ofmy students, they could tell you
an introduction alwaysconcludes character setting.
It's some kind of problemarising action, like it's such
muscle memory at this point.
But that is just born of all ofthese additional experiences
(14:13):
they get with some of theseliterary terms.
Melissa (14:16):
All right, are we ready to talk about phase two?
Aaron Grossman (14:19):
Absolutely.
Melissa (14:20):
So I'm most curious about this is the phase where
they start to write their ownscripts.
When you said it, I was likethat feels a little daunting,
potentially right.
That's a big jump from them youknow reading the scripts that
you've had them reading towriting their own.
Now I know they have a lot oftime that they're spending in
scripts, so they're familiarwith it.
(14:42):
But what do you do to get themto make that leap to writing
their own scripts?
How do you support them?
Aaron Grossman (14:50):
So let's go back to so.
In phase one I said everybodyhas a shared experience and
you're nodding your head and Iknow my listeners would be too
which is just the value of ashared experience, because then
we can continue to draw fromthat shared experience.
Continue to draw from thatshared experience.
So if, quite literally, thefirst script we ever read
together is something we've alldone, then when we do our very
(15:10):
first script writing, I'll givethem a piece of content that
we're all going to change intosome kind of reader's theater
script.
So I think the very first thingfor that, the very first thing
that we ever used as sourcematerial, was around energy.
That happened to be where wewere with science.
So they took one of our outcomes.
I put them in groups of threeand each triad wrote a script
(15:34):
and they have a template forthat.
So it just sort of tells themwe need to have a setting.
What's character one, charactertwo?
So there is some pretty firmguardrails in the first script
writing.
And then within that and Istole this from one of your
previous guests, lauren prophet,who's a fourth grade teacher um
, I hadn't thought of itinitially, but they rotate the
(15:55):
pen as well, which becomes a keypart of that activity.
So if the first characterspeaking, I hand the pen and
they write their part for thesecond character, and this goes
back to two things at once.
So we're listening or we'refocusing on some pretty soft
skills.
You know that social awarenessor self-awareness Are we engaged
(16:17):
in what our other kids or whatour classmates are contributing,
and then from that we tease outa script.
Melissa (16:25):
What was that called?
Aaron Grossman (16:26):
Aaron, the where we're rotating the pen rotating
the pen?
Lori (16:28):
I think it's.
Is it rotating the pen or takethe pen?
I didn't hear.
Aaron Grossman (16:32):
Well, probably either one.
I tell my kids we have torotate the pen, but probably
take the pen.
It's probably a very similarriff.
Melissa (16:38):
Pass the pen.
We can call it what we want.
That has a nice ring.
Lori (16:42):
Okay, all right, can you talk a little bit more about
that?
So we're just real clear onwhat that is Like.
They write something and thenthey pass it.
Aaron Grossman (16:49):
Yep, okay.
So if you could picture and wecan link to some of these as
well Picture a template where,so one of them is what's called
a homework outline, so the veryI actually have written the
first three or four lines.
So character one you know saysI'm struggling with you know the
following assignment I shouldcall the homework outline and
then all of them readsimultaneously call 1-800, you
(17:12):
know, homework outline.
And then the first next personwho speaks says hello, this is
the homework outline.
And then the first next personwho speaks says hello, this is
the homework outline.
What question do you have?
And then that prompts the nextperson to say well, what
question would you be have about?
this particular source materialand then from there they're off.
And then their task is rightMind the text for whatever
relevant evidence they need toshare with their audience.
(17:34):
And then how do we wrap this upand continue to engage
whoever's listening to whatwe've created?
Lori (17:40):
So are they writing that about energy, like they could do
this homework hotline scriptabout energy.
Aaron Grossman (17:46):
They could do it about energy or any topic I
mean, really we did one, youknow, when we first learned how
to add and subtract fractionswith unlike denominators.
That turned into a script.
So how do we turn an algorithmand it's something that we can
share with other stakeholdersand I know that, again, we can
be incredibly creative with this.
But for me, again, a point ofemphasis is these are always
(18:11):
anchored in something that I canfeel like I'm doing two things
at once with.
Always anchored in somethingthat I can feel like I'm doing
two things at once with.
Melissa (18:17):
Yeah, and I really liked that one that you, like
you, you gave them the frame ofthe.
You know the, the, where arelike, where are we?
We're in this, this homeworkhotline, you know like.
You gave them that.
So they're not starting fromcomplete scratch Like I don't
know where, how, what do I evendo for a script on energy?
You know Um.
So you, you gave them thatjumpstart and a little bit of a
structure with the questions andanswers.
(18:39):
That I would imagine gives themmore of a solid place to then
just jump into the content andbe able to bring that in as they
finish that script.
Aaron Grossman (18:49):
And I'm glad you note that, and also I just call
out the fact that the firsttemplates I ever saw were from
Rosalind Flynn, and so she's anauthor.
You know you can find her bookand I know that she's got some
other content you can findonline.
But again, attribution, becauseI just think you know, like
many classroom teachers,inspired by other people, and
then we just sort of make it ourown.
Melissa (19:10):
Writing it down.
We'll link it in the show notes, all right.
So, aaron, is there anythingelse you wanted to share about
phase two?
As terms of you know you sharedhow you get them into writing
this script with support, isthere anything you do then to
change it over the course ofphase two so they're a little
more independent?
Aaron Grossman (19:27):
So let me describe two other things that
make phase two a little bitdifferent than phase one.
The first is the presentationsthemselves.
So instead of always justpresenting in front of their
classmates now, either I farmthem out to other.
Always just presenting in frontof their classmates now, either
I farm them out to otherclassrooms where they share some
of their content, or we inviteother classrooms in to receive
some of these scripts.
The other part and I hope I'mclear here the students
(19:54):
themselves will begin toevaluate their classmates, not
at the individual but rather asa group presentation.
So picture somebody has justdone a presentation on goods and
services, so one of our socialstudies standards.
The participants will evaluatesmoothness, pace expression,
(20:21):
evaluate smoothness, paceexpression.
And so then it's not justalways me who is looking for
these things, but they get topay very close attention to what
makes a strong presentation.
Melissa (20:28):
And that's back to that same rubric that you went over
with them at the very beginning.
Aaron Grossman (20:33):
At the very beginning.
Lori (20:34):
yes, Aaron, do they ever evaluate the content of the
scripts?
Aaron Grossman (20:41):
You know at that point, honestly no, because
I've probably, if there'ssomething that's a little bit
off.
Lori (20:46):
You've already addressed it, yeah.
Aaron Grossman (20:47):
I've addressed that, where you get to
evaluation of the content itself, is then jumping into phase
three, where there are some pureediting, so that we're clear on
those things that we know areincluded in a strong reader's
data script.
Lori (21:00):
Okay, well, let's just go there.
Then I feel like phase three.
I'm like what else could we do?
It feels like we're at thefinal frontier.
So when students are writingtheir own scripts, what happens
after that?
Right, I'm hearing you say peerediting.
I'm interested to hear whatother tricks of the trade you've
got.
Aaron Grossman (21:20):
Well, and I again, you know it's like you
know.
So we can all picture, at thebeginning of the year there we
haven't had as much structure asroutines and places that we
would like, but by the timewe're getting close to spring
break, one, you know, ourtolerance for our students,
tolerance for boredom, you know,wanes quickly, especially, I
think, you know, a generationthat is so used to endorphin
Russians from scrolling, and soit's like how do we continue to
(21:43):
promote fluency and keeping asgauging as possible for the kids
that we're working with, and sothe opportunities include one?
They're writing their ownscripts.
It shouldn't always be me whois the one that's doing the
editing.
So then we just use a pureediting protocol that I'm sure
many of the teachers listeninghave already in place.
Mine is a riff from two localeducators a guy named mark
(22:06):
medcalf, another woman who's nowretired, kitty gillette, where
they, you know, sit side by sideand there are some pretty firm
guardrails.
Again, on what are we lookingfor?
We can, can't look foreverything.
So do they have an introductionwith those characters setting
and rising action or some kindof problem?
Does it make sense how weultimately get to our conclusion
?
There are some obviousconvention pieces that we can
(22:29):
look for.
But, largely speaking, does itmake sense and is this worth
sharing with your classmates?
And I think I alluded to thisearlier, we're also now just
grabbing things from otherclassrooms.
It is incredibly charming whenmy kids take student writing in
the primary grades, turn it intoa script and then get to
present it for the kid.
(22:49):
Who is the author they light up.
They must love that, Yep, andit builds relationships.
So that's another opportunityin that third phase that wasn't
afforded in this first couple.
Lori (23:02):
Do you ever do a buddy read script where like they
might have something that theyounger kids can decode, or am I
giving you a cool idea now?
Aaron Grossman (23:11):
I think you're giving me a cool idea.
To be fairly honest with you, Ihaven't done it that way, but
that's great to be fairly honestwith you, I haven't done it
that way, but that's great.
Lori (23:18):
I was thinking a lot about how, when you said, it builds
relationships.
Often in schools they do likethe classroom buddy readers,
where the older students read tothe younger students.
But that would be really coolfor the younger kids to be like
wow, this is my work.
That was changed into a script,so cool.
And maybe there's like a coupleof words that they could say or
repeat over and over again.
That's so awesome.
I love that.
(23:38):
I love the concept.
It's very cool.
Aaron Grossman (23:41):
And I love you volunteering that, and so if
people go to my classroom page,please reach out, because I just
think I'm always blown away bywhat teachers do with research
and how they iterate and make itstronger.
I just think we don't tap intothat wealth of knowledge as well
as we should.
But I am always just again,like I alluded to the law and
(24:01):
profit who just very simply saidhow come you don't have them
rotate the pen or pass the pen?
Melissa (24:07):
I was just thinking that you know you've taken a lot
of research, like you saidChase Young's research and Tim
Ruzinski's research.
You've taken a lot of thisresearch but you're still making
it yours as a teacher, right,and there's not.
The researchers aren't going tosay stuff, things like that,
like pass the pen or to, youknow, create, create the scripts
in a certain way.
You know they say that thisrepeated reading is great, that
(24:28):
Reader's Theater has some impactfor students, but all this is
this is why we talk to teachersis so that you know you get all
of these really great ideas forhow to actually make it real in
a classroom and make it work forkids and to build on that a
little bit, which is, I thinkresearchers are really well in
general.
Aaron Grossman (24:46):
Right, I think there are three things we're
always attending to, which iswhy, how and with what.
And researchers and academicsare fabulous with why and
they're really good at directingpeople with what.
Academics are fabulous with whyand they're really good at
directing people with what.
Um, but how is what?
Teachers and I think again toto borrow from rosinski and
young who talk about that artand science and how you marry
those two guys, the how is somuch art?
(25:07):
Yeah, um, and so you know, yourecently had on andrew watson,
who talked about retrievalpractice and, I think, about the
value of these readers.
Theater scripts are another wayof addressing retrieval
practice in a way that doesn'tfeel really obvious to the kids
but clearly is of value to themAll right, aaron, we have a few
really practical questions foryou.
Melissa (25:29):
You know teachers need to know the logistical.
How do I do this?
You've mentioned a few timesalready, but I just want to like
stamp it when you're writingthe scripts or when you're
giving the scripts to students.
Where do you find them or howdo you create them?
Aaron Grossman (25:44):
So I am using generative AI.
I won't call it a specific one,but what I've learned over time
is it's really helpful for acouple of reasons.
A lot of the reader's datacontent that I was shared with
me, especially as part of largeadoptions.
There are two problems that Inoticed with it.
One they're too long, Like howdo you get to repeatedly reading
(26:08):
and leveraging the research onthat when it takes kids 45
minutes just to get through areader's theater script, through
a reader's theater script?
So that was one reason tomotivate me.
And the other part was I wantedthings that were always really
tailored to things I wascurrently doing in my classroom.
So, using AI, I will pick out apiece of content and then I will
(26:30):
say I need 400 to 500 words.
I need four parts.
Every part has to speak thesame number of words.
I will even pick out keyvocabulary words from things
that we're studying and then I'mable to embed that vocabulary
in the script itself.
And one more reference to oneof your previous shows but you
had Blythe Anderson on whotalked about emphasizing a word
(26:54):
and how.
That's one of these reallystrong talk moves we can do with
vocabulary.
So now I will bold or italicizesome words within the script
and that prompts the kids to saythis is the word that I need to
emphasize for my audience.
So what's fresh right now is Iwrote a bunch on economics, so
here's goods and services We'lltalk about that.
Or entrepreneur, and you hearthe kid really emphasize that
(27:16):
word and then the definitionthat follows, um, and then that
word entrepreneur might appearthree or four times all, which
is reasonably easy to do with aitools.
Um, and there's one other verysubtle thing and I want to be
clear about this so you knowother tips which is obviously we
have kids in our classroom arehighly impacted.
(27:37):
Maybe they come with an SLD ofsome kind, so either they're
working with anotherprofessional to do some kind of
repeated reading, if you're veryfortunate, maybe families are
able to afford some additionalsupport.
But in instances where theyquite literally just can't even
access you know something with aLuxile of about 800,.
You know something with aLuxile of about 800,.
That's when you can usegenerative AI to say can you
(28:05):
make this one part completelydecodable using only the
following vowel patterns ordiphthongs, whatever it is that
you might have been studyingwith that particular student.
Melissa (28:10):
Yeah, and a very good tip for teachers who teach lower
grade levels right that theycould do that same thing to
create their scripts from whatthey've already taught in their
phonics lessons.
Aaron Grossman (28:21):
Yes, so those are two biggie ones.
And then the other one that Ijust I'm sure people know, which
is when I say that sometimeskids get to just sign up for the
scripts.
Sometimes we know there arecertain kids who just cannot
sign up for the same script forany number of reasons.
So I do want to acknowledgethis.
I don't have every year kidswho just all magically work well
together.
Lori (28:42):
So we didn't think you were like a unicorn in this
world, don't worry, all right.
So you kind of alluded to thisidea of differentiation, but I
want to give you the opportunityto talk a little bit more about
it.
Like, if we do have, you know,your fourth grade, if we do have
a fourth grader who'sstruggling, who's reading
several grade levels behind,what else do you do?
(29:03):
I mean, I'm hearing you say youmanipulate the words in the
script a little bit, but isthere anything else?
Do you make it shorter?
What else happens?
Aaron Grossman (29:12):
And that depends , you know, really specifically
on the child, and we can getinto IEPs.
So by the time they're infourth grade, largely speaking,
there are some things in placefor that child.
So that's a document you canrefer back to.
So if repeated reading andhaving additional opportunities
where there's work with thescript don't work, you can again
using generative AI.
(29:33):
If I said this, one's 500 wordsand everybody's speaking the
same number of words, perhapsinstead you say I need one part
that's limited to 18 words, sothey get to participate fully,
they get to be part of thatcommunity.
But here the tweak is they justhave to read less and so the
lift on them is a little bitlower than it might be for some
(29:54):
of the other students.
But I think you know again,it's nuanced because as best as
possible we can, you know, Ithink we all know we want them
engaged with grade level content, but sometimes we have to put.
Sometimes that's verychallenging.
Lori (30:08):
Yeah, I like the idea of that.
They're still participating inthe activity and also tracking
and hearing that fluent readingand I would think we would
scaffold up to work on morewords as time goes on, so I love
thinking about that.
Aaron Grossman (30:26):
And let me volunteer one more, which again
I'm sure there are people in theaudience just going how come
you didn't say that first, whichis sometimes you just choral
read.
So all four participants willbe reading along together, and
so that's another supporterscaffold.
Also point of research.
Melissa (30:42):
Also very easy.
Aaron Grossman (30:44):
Yes, jinx.
Melissa (30:45):
Jinx, I'm just wondering if you do any kind of
fluency assessments throughoutthe year and does that play any
role in you know your groupingsor anything like that?
And I'm also just curious ifyou see improvement in fluency
from all this work that they do.
Aaron Grossman (31:03):
So I do the.
I certainly do a readingcurriculum-based measure, and I
do it with all of my students.
So some are probed morefrequently, but for all of my
students, at the very least, I'mdoing it monthly.
So that's one way of trackinghow kids are moving.
And the other part, again, isusing the Rosinski piece.
I do keep track of those scores.
(31:24):
So we were talking about.
You know, if people choose topull it up, they'll see a matrix
with four categories scores of1, 2, 3, 4.
And so that's another measure.
Scores of one, two, three, four, and so that's another measure.
And so I will share those with,certainly at parent conferences
, so that they understand thatfluency is more than just moving
quickly and accurately across apiece of paper, that there's
(31:46):
more to it, and so they have alanguage to work with their kids
if they so choose, if theychoose to promote that outcome
in their house.
Lori (31:54):
Okay.
So I'm wondering if you'd liketo give any pieces of advice to
teachers.
Listening, I feel like you'veshared so many amazing tidbits
but, as you're thinking aboutclosing this podcast out, what's
one piece of advice, two piecesof advice you'd give to
teachers looking to reallystrengthen their fluency
instruction in their classrooms?
Aaron Grossman (32:16):
Well, I'm going to be a cliche right now which
is it's that leap of faith whichis the first ones are.
They don't go particularly well.
You know they're awkwardbecause everybody's getting used
to that, especially when we'retalking about August where, if
kids are still kind of riskadverse, you haven't established
that culture and so, like somany other things, you got to
(32:38):
kind of stick to it and thenyou'll know your room, you'll
know what they need to besuccessful with this.
So I always think you know, doit at least two or three times.
So that's the first one, andthe other one is again, the real
value and utility of shortscripts.
So Dr Young talks about this,but again, just to keep
(33:00):
reinforcing this idea of ifwe're not getting to repeated
reading, we're not going to getto the kind of prosody that
we're hoping for.
So those performances on Fridaycan become pretty flat Again if
they're just logging throughsomething and they've only had a
chance to go through it maybeonce or twice before then
sharing it whole class.
Lori (33:18):
All right.
So if we're looking on the JustTwo Teachers website, what can
we find?
Our listeners, I'm sure theywant to know.
Aaron Grossman (33:25):
Well, there's a lot on the Just Two Teachers
website and it's just becauseI've worn a number of different
hats, but there is a Reader'sTheater section.
So if they go to the websitethey'll see a frame.
There's a reader's theatersection.
You know I've because I'vetaught multiple grades and I've
been doing this for a while now.
I mentioned indoor recess games, but you know I do ones around
(33:46):
Aesop fables because we wantthat background knowledge.
So again, I could just keepreading to them.
But here's another way ofbuilding understanding of Aesop
fables or famous fairy tales,because we know there are
communities in which kids arejust unfamiliar with these
stories but then there'sillusions to them constantly as
we get to intermediate gradecontent and especially middle
school literature.
(34:06):
There's lots of stuff aroundscience.
I do a whole thing on thelanguage standards, I have a
bunch of content on math, and soI've done the best, if I can,
to really be very broad in whatthese scripts are addressing.
So that would be one thing.
And then they're also going tofind all kinds of tools around
(34:27):
inclusion, around PBIS, buteverything that they would find
there is absolutely free.
My entire first week ofinstruction is posted there.
And then one last piece, whichis you asked about the protocol.
At the very start of this,there is a short five-minute
video of my kids sort of engagedin the protocol and reflecting
on it, so if people wanted tosee what that looked like from a
(34:48):
student's perspective, theycould see that.
Melissa (34:50):
I was going to say that , if you didn't, I just found
that video today.
Lori (34:54):
That's amazing, oh my gosh .
Well, it sounds like we'll belinking your website in the show
notes, among other places.
So thank you so much for thisamazing work that you do and the
contribution that you give toyour students and also this
literacy learning communityevery day.
Thank you.
Aaron Grossman (35:10):
Thank you and sincerely thank you very much
for having me on.
This was really fabulous.
And sincerely thank you verymuch for having me on.
This was really fabulous.
Melissa (35:18):
To stay connected with us, sign up for our email list
at literacypodcastcom, join ourFacebook group and follow us on
Instagram and Twitter.
Lori (35:29):
If this episode resonated with you, take a moment to share
with a teacher friend or leaveus a five-star rating and review
on Apple Podcasts.
Melissa (35:38):
Just a quick reminder that the views and opinions
expressed by the hosts andguests of the Melissa and Lori
Love Literacy Podcast are notnecessarily the opinions of
Great Minds PBC or its employees.
Lori (35:50):
We appreciate you so much and we're so glad you're here to
learn with us.
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