Building Better Academic Talk Routines in K-8 Classrooms

Episode 218 is chock-full of super practical ways to implement academic talk in your classroom tomorrow! 

Elementary science teacher Jami Witherell shares her insights on fostering academic discourse in the classroom, emphasizing the importance of giving students time to think before they speak. She discusses practical strategies for engaging students in conversation, including the 'read a little, think a little, chat a little' approach, and the implementation of Socratic seminars and fishbowl discussions. Jami highlights the significance of preparation and creating a safe space for all students, especially multilingual learners, to express their thoughts and ideas. Her personal experiences as a multilingual learner shape her passion for ensuring that every student feels their voice matters in the classroom.

Fourth grade teacher Lauren Proffitt discusses the importance of oracy in education, detailing how her school has implemented a school-wide goal to enhance students' speaking skills. She explains the significance of structured routines and strategies that promote student engagement through talk, emphasizing the role of oracy in both academic and lifelong skills. The discussion also covers peer observations, collaborative learning, and effective management of classroom discussions, providing practical insights for educators.

Resources

• Fail-a-bration by Brad and Kristi Montague

We answer your questions about teaching reading in The Literacy 50-A Q&A Handbook for Teachers: Real-World Answers to Questions About Reading That Keep You Up at Night.

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Episode Transcript

Lori (00:01):
If you're an elementary or middle school teacher striving
to create a classroom wherestudents confidently engage in
complex academic talk, thisepisode is for you.

Melissa (00:11):
Right now you might be wondering how do I get my
students to talk more or moredeeply about what they're
learning?
Today, we're interviewing twoteachers who will share
actionable strategies and tipsto get your students talking.

Lori (00:25):
Hi teacher friends.
I'm Lori and I'm Melissa.
We are two educators who wantthe best for all kids, and we
know you do too.

Melissa (00:34):
We worked together in Baltimore when the district
adopted a new literacycurriculum.

Lori (00:39):
We realized there was so much more to learn about how to
teach reading and writing.

Melissa (00:52):
Lori, and I can't wait to keep learning with you.
Today, let's hear from JamieWitherow, an early elementary
science teacher.

Lori (00:58):
Hi, jamie, welcome to the podcast.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, we cannot wait to talk toyou about how you bring
academic talk into yourclassroom.

Melissa (01:09):
So we want to hear all about your routines, your
structures, how you make, how doyou get your students talking
in your classroom.
We want to hear all about it.
So let's start like on asmaller scale.
We want to hear about justwhat's a strategy you use like
every day, something thatteachers could easily just like
pop into their class tomorrow.
They really get studentstalking more.

Jami (01:31):
Yeah, this is something that comes to me from the
incredibly talented BeckyDeSmith from Keys to Literacy
just a dear friend of mine atthis point.
But years ago we were sittingin a PD and she said kids really
need a chance to think aboutwhat they want to say before
they're going to actually say it.
They need an opportunity tothink a little.
And so she was like we're goingto read a little first, then

(01:53):
we're going to think a little,then we're going to chat a
little or talk a little, andthen they're going to write, and
that became a poster that nowhangs in my room.
And so, read a little, think alittle, chat a little, talk a
little, or talk a little, writea little is sort of like this
structure that we use prettyconsistently for any piece of

(02:13):
text that we're looking at, andI just find that I need, as the
educator, I need the time togive my students time to think
before we jump into even thatconversation, because we talk so
much about academic discourseand conversation is so important
, but we also have to havesomething to say.
And so this read a little, thinka little.
Time builds time for me to sortof chat with students who may

(02:35):
need a pre-chat before they chatwith their partner, and also to
give students a chance to thinkabout what they want to say.
And so, like honoring that timeof formulating your ideas and
your thinking, and that thattakes time.
It doesn't just apparate likethe thought that you want to
share isn't immediately there,and then that transfers into the
conversations they have withtheir partners or their teams

(02:56):
and then hopefully, obviously,the end goal is for that to
transfer into their writing andtake what they've said and what
they've talked about and put itin their writing.
And it seems, I don't know, isit too simple, is it too easy?
But it's sort of like thatmoment as an educator where it's
like, if I don't have thatposter in my room, I'm like
here's what we read, here's thequestion, talk about it, because
that's just sort of the flow ofthe classroom.

(03:17):
But that poster is a reminderto me that I need to honor that.
They need time to think alittle before they chat a little
and they need to chat beforethey can write.

Melissa (03:27):
That's great, and you mentioned like they're doing
this probably in partners ormaybe with a small group, I'm
guessing of like four, and howlong are they talking in this?
Like, how long do you give themto talk?

Jami (03:37):
Sure, I've heard variable times for chatting.
I think to me it sort of dependson the lull of the room.
I was with a bunch of teacherseven just last night and
somebody was saying like no morethan 40 seconds, and then
they're coming back and I waslike whoa, that has to be like
the fastest second gradeconversation that I've ever seen
and that's incredible if youcan do that.

(03:58):
But, like, sometimes it takes alittle bit of time to like get
your thoughts together.
So if you are putting in thethink first and then you have a
big chunk to say I don't want tocut you off and I don't want to
stop.
If what you've said inspiredsomebody else to say something,
I don't want to cut them off.
So it is partially reading theroom and then also, like the
students that I'm working withand as a facilitator of that

(04:21):
lesson, I'm around listening toall of these conversations.
So it could last anywhere from,I guess, 40 seconds but
hopefully up to a minute or twoof discussion for a duo or a
team to have that conversation.

Melissa (04:35):
Yeah, and I'm wondering can you give us an example of
like what kinds of questionsthey might be thinking about?
Maybe something from yourclassroom, if you can think of
it off the top of your headthinking?

Jami (04:44):
about, maybe something from your classroom, if you can
think of it off the top of yourhead, yeah, so right now we're
thinking about tugboats.
Tugboats are high on my mind.
My kindergartners are lookingat the way that tugboats move
through water and they arepushing and pulling, and so the
big, big question that we'rewondering is how do tugboats
help other things move throughthe water?
But they might be looking atparticular ships and whether, if

(05:07):
it's a cargo ship, are theypushing or are they pulling, and
I want students to recognizelike that there are different
pieces to the tugboat, so likethere's ropes, there's hooks,
there's all these differentthings, without me saying let's
go and look at this picture andphotograph and really look at
deeply the picture here.
I want them to do that in theiracademic discussions because I
want to see what they know andwhat they notice.

(05:29):
So it might be something assimple as how is that tugboat
moving, the cargo ship?
And then really asking them tolook at the piece of text, which
in this case, is a photograph.
Right, we're thinking about thekindergarten level of access of
text or written structure.
Is really photography at thispoint, or pictures.
So they're looking at thatpicture and then discussing with

(05:50):
their teammates.
Like I see a big, big big shipand that's a cruise ship and I
went on a cruise once.
Then there's all this dialoguehappening there and then
somebody else will say, like Inoticed a big rope.
And then there's some.
Somebody said the other daywagon wheels, and I was like
tires, but not a wagon wheel,but thinking like the way things
move.
And so then somebody was like Ithink they have wagon wheels or

(06:13):
tires because they're rubberand then they can help them.
And so we have this like sortof adjacent discussion because
of the academic discourse thatwas happening in their small
groups, sort of reframing andrenaming, like you're making a
connection to when we talkedabout wagon wheels in our last
books and now we're looking attires that are on a tugboat.
So it can be something thatsimple but that, given a little

(06:36):
bit of time to think before theypair and share, I think can be
a huge transition into what theyactually talk to their partners
about.

Melissa (06:45):
First, can I just say tugboats Like how cool is that
of a topic to talk about andlearn about?
I don't think I know that muchabout tugboats.
I kind of want to sit in andlearn too.
But a couple of things juststuck out to me there.
You mentioned you're doing thiswith kindergartners.
So you're doing academicdiscourse with kindergartners
who just started school a fewmonths ago.
That's amazing.
You're doing it with thingsthat were like you know they

(07:08):
might not be reading yet, butthey still have a text and that
text is a picture and they'restill doing this academic
discourse grounded in a text,which is super cool.
And, just to remind everybody,you're teaching science, right.
So you're even doing thisoutside of an ELA classroom.
You're doing it in a contentarea.
So just wanted to point out allthose really cool things you're
doing.

Jami (07:28):
I mean, I think it's so important.
Having come from a literacybackground and jumping into STEM
, this year has been a littlebit of like it can't just be the
job of a homeroom teacher.
It has to be not on all of us,but with all of us, kind of
working together, workingtogether.
And so I think about makingsure that they have access to
rich science texts and then thatopportunity for that really
strong academic discourse to bea part of the lab as well.

(07:50):
And a lot of them will tell me,like this doesn't feel like
science.
I'm like, okay, well, what doesit feel like?
And they're like it feels likeart.
I'm like oh.
I love that.
It feels like library, it feelslike we're in reading class, it
feels like math and I'm likescience should feel like all of
those things right, like youshould feel really good about
all of the things that we'redoing that make that STEM or
STEAM family.

Melissa (08:10):
That's great.
I have one last question foryou about this particular
routine that you use.
I know sometimes I would havemy students.
Some students would jump rightin and have these great
discussions and they'd be like,yeah, I have so much to say, and
then you'd have some studentswho kind of are just like they
give their one word answerbecause they, your teacher said
that you have to, and then theydon't have much more to say.

(08:32):
Do you have any tips forteachers of like how to get some
of those students saying morein these types of discussions?

Jami (08:36):
I think our old friend sentence stems cannot be
underutilized and sort of givingstudents that language to start
, even as I'm, as I'm saying,like this is what we read about.
Here's the question.
I want you to think a littlebefore we chat a little, and at
this point they know thatroutine and I said you might be
thinking like I think thetugboat is connected by

(08:58):
something, so the tugboat isconnected by, and then some of
them will yell at me like ropeand I'm like nope, that's in
your brain.
You're thinking about what youwant to say when you meet with
your partner.
But I know for a lot of mymultilingual learners that's a
huge piece of the opportunity toengage, is like they've gotten
that sentence stem just from mewhen they're thinking about it
and then they can have thatopportunity to practice and then

(09:20):
I'm not afraid to partner witha group.
So if I know that there arestudents that I want to hear
from and there are students thatare striving to have their
voice be heard, I'm a thirdmember of that team or a fourth
member of that team and I'mgoing to come over and I want to
listen and hear what they haveto say, whether we're talking

(09:45):
about this particular protocolor just having a conversation as
a group is creating that safespace where you can try out
academic language that you maymake a mistake on.
So that sort of comes into thewhole way that I run my room
around tell me, I'm still cool.
So whenever I make a mistakeI'm always like tell me, I'm
still cool.
And I have a chorus of 22ndgraders who are like you're
still cool, or like a bunch ofkindergartners who are like
you're still cool.

(10:05):
And so I do the same thing inacademic discourse.
If they're striving to put thatsentence together, I'll say, oh
, you're still cool, but youwant to start with this whole
beginning of your sentence.
And they're like I'm still cool.
And then they'll start theirthought over again, and so it's
sort of creating thatopportunity to fail forward.
Have that opportunity to tryout something and not have it
work and know that that's justas good as trying out something

(10:29):
and it coming out exactly howyou want it to the first time.

Lori (10:33):
Yeah, this idea of feeling really safe in the academic
conversation space is soimportant and I'm so glad that
you brought that up and you haveanother like really just small
strategy that teachers can takeand use right away.
I love that.
You are still cool, you're socool actually.
Thanks, you're welcome.
But this, like this strategythat you shared, the read a

(10:57):
little or learn a little, right,think a little, talk a little,
write a little, it just it's soreplicable and it's a really
easy way to get students to talkin the classroom and I think
that that's like on a smallerscale, maybe like an everyday
kind of routine you canimplement.
But I also know that withacademic conversations, we want

(11:18):
to address like some bigger,bigger ways to address
conversations.
So I'm thinking about thingslike Socratic seminar or some
fishbowl discussions.
I'm wondering if you might beable to tell us about these
routines and what happens duringeach of them.

Jami (11:34):
I think I was sort of blown away many years ago during
my very first Socratic seminar.
I sort of touted as the changein me, like 10 years ago, as a
teacher who sort of realized Ihad to get out of my own way and
I had been lowering the bar andlowering the bar so that
students felt successful.
And my very first Socraticseminar was the moment that I
was like, oh, everybody is socapable and I need to like keep

(11:57):
that level of academic rigorhigh.
Because they will totally meetme there.
And I always thank the mostadorable second grader named
Dylan, who I wish I could justlike take with me now although
I'm sure he's like in eighth orninth grade at this point who
was a student who was not in ourroom full time.

(12:18):
He had a lot of academicpullout support but he was in
our first Socratic seminar andwe couldn't stop him from
talking Like he was just achatterbox through Socratic
seminar and I was sort of likehis peers were able to see him
as having the strong voice andvalue, and so I was like gosh, I
need to make sure that Socraticseminars become like a salient
part of what I do as an educator.

(12:39):
And so they are.
You know those student-leddiscussions with no teacher
voice.
They are run through a lot ofpractice, so it's not like we
just like all sit in a circleand everybody has their hands in
their lap and we're all readyto go.
But it's definitely thatopportunity for me to step back
and listen to students who havea strong voice, students who

(13:01):
maybe are a little bit quieter.
When I started, way back in theday, I was using tokens to talk
and so I would give everybodytheir three tokens.
It was actually a fellow whoused pennies to do their
Socratic seminar, which justbecomes like that thing that I'm
like please, for the rest of mylife, give them two pennies so

(13:22):
that they can put in their twocents, which I think is such a
brilliant idea in small group.
Sometimes that works reallywell in second grade and
sometimes there's just pennieseverywhere.
But we do a lot with showingthem that their idea is worth
something, right?
So when you're putting it inhere, I want you to share your
token or your idea, and thenthat there's no sort of like.

(13:45):
That's so correct, right?
Because I think sometimes indiscussions as educators
especially, we're looking toguide them somewhere.
There's like sort of thisanswer that we know in our minds
we would like to get to, andthe reality is like the best
discussions don't necessarilyhave like this one thing that
will be the answer at the end ofthe discussion, but rather it's

(14:07):
the actual discussion itselfthat is the real gift.
And so I think I've beenrunning them for literacy for so
long that stepping into thescience lab I was sort of like I
need them to be a part ofscience so that kids can argue
like if we should build apergola or a shade over our
playground so the sun doesn'tget to us and they can have this

(14:29):
like really rich discussionaround.
Pergolas are made out of woodand a shade has vinyl or plastic
, and so I'm hearing like allthis vocabulary coming from them
and what they do or do notunderstand.
Some kids were like you can'tbuild a pergola because it's
it's like you need nails and ahammer and I was like well, at
least you know what a pergola is, but we could build a pergola
here.
So we have those opportunitiesfor that really rich discussion,

(14:51):
something that people will comein and sort of be like I can't
believe you have kindergartnershaving this kind of conversation
.
And I still laugh because ittook me nine years to do this
and I did it for the first timelast year and it becomes the
thing that I'm like why didn't Ido this nine years ago?
But I had a group that was verylike policing each other during

(15:14):
Socratic seminar and like it'smy turn to share.
You have to wait for me or I'mgoing to share first.
And then they also wanted to goin order and I was like y'all,
we have to like work as a teamto be able to have this
conversation.
And so I just found a felloweducator actually a Maryland
educator who was doing insideoutside circles, and I shared it
.
They were eighth graders,shared it with my second graders

(15:35):
and they were just like oh wait, that's what Socratic seminar
is.
That's like so you?

Melissa (15:39):
actually showed them a video model.

Lori (15:41):
Yes, I showed them a video ?

Jami (15:43):
Isn't that like the most simple thing ever in the history
of mankind life?
But I was just like yes.
And they were like oh, we cando that.
Yeah, now that that's what youwant.
Like we can do that.
And I was like why?

Melissa (15:58):
Why wouldn't I like model in some?

Jami (16:01):
way.
Well, because I think you can'tlike bring in a bunch of other
teachers because they're goingto be like you can do that
because you're a teacher, so tosee other kids do it, they were
just like, oh okay.
So then that was like the endof bickering, the end of arguing
.
They were like we want to belike those eighth graders, like
we're going to do that.
So now I start the beginning ofevery Socratic seminar season

(16:21):
with here's where we're going.
We won't be here on the firstSocratic seminar, but this is
what we really want.
We want to listen to each other, we want to hear what the other
people are saying and we wantto add on to people's thinking.
We want to make those links,those connections for each of
our classmates.
And so I think that has beensuch a game changer for myself
in doing it.

(16:42):
And then that all kind of comesinto like the grace of it all,
like I think, when you're tryinganything new and this
particular thing for me nineyears ago was completely brand
new that it's not going to belike this perfect, beautiful
conversation that you could likefilm and showcase with
everybody, like they are alittle bit messy the first
couple of times you do them.

(17:03):
And that's the beauty ofacademic discourse is it grows.
Over time it gets better andbetter.
I think one of the things that Ihear a lot for my multilingual
learners too.
People will tell me in SocraticSeminar.
The kids are just repeatingeach other and I'm like, yeah,
but in English.
So that's incredible.
I'm so happy that they arerestating what their peers are

(17:23):
saying in the English language.
I mean, the school that I teachat is so diverse.
We are so lucky.
We're more than 50% diverse.
We have students from all overthe world Bulgaria, central and
South America and they all cometo this like one little island
school, which is so exciting.
But we have languages thatrepresent those cultures as well

(17:44):
, and so making sure that theyhave opportunity to hear spoken
language in English and thenalso to try it out.
So copying or mirroring ormimicking, those are all steps
in the process of learning theEnglish language and certainly
how to use English language inacademic discourse.

Lori (18:00):
Okay, there's so much I want to follow up on Jamie, but
I think number one I would liketo just stay on the Socratic
seminar for a moment and thinkabout the preparation that goes
into it.
Can you describe somepreparation?
Because I know your studentsstill just don't show up on
Tuesday and you're like here'sthe question, let's Socratic
seminar.
So can you maybe walk usthrough what that preparation

(18:22):
looks like and just speak toyour multilingual learner
population again, I think that'sso helpful, at least for me to
hear.
I love hearing you know thesupport that you're giving your
students all around, but alsofor that specific population.
I think in this, the way thatwe're talking about academic
conversation, it really makes alot of sense to hear how we're

(18:42):
supporting students.

Jami (18:44):
Yeah conversation.
It really makes a lot of senseto hear how we're supporting
students.
Yeah, I mean, I think one ofthe big things is it has to be
done with this sort of like theend goal in mind.
So this universal design ispurposeful in that we understand
backwards planning right.
So I don't want to arrive atSocratic Seminar and then hope
they have enough to talk about.
But I need to know that alongthe way we've picked up some
information so that they'recoming to Socratic Seminar with

(19:06):
something that's going to bereally successful.
And I hope that I'm doing reada little, think a little, chat a
little, write a little beforethey come to Socratic Seminar.
So they are doing some sort ofdrawing or picture creation to
have something that they want toshare, show or say in Socratic
Seminar.
But even well before that pointof the day of Socratic Seminar

(19:27):
I've have to think out kind oflike weeks in advance for what
students are picking up alongthe way, because I don't
anticipate that a kindergartneris going to come to their first
Socratic Seminar and just knowpergola and shade and umbrella
without some sort of lessonsthat have introduced those along
the way so that students canfeel really successful.
So in that way it's sort oflike planning with that

(19:47):
destination in mind, and one ofthe stops along the way we know
is going to be Socratic Seminar,and so where do I need to stop
along the way to support them?
I often tell this like reallyfunny story in my own life that
has less to do with SocraticSeminar but more to do with
backwards planning, that hasless to do with Socratic Seminar
but more to do with backwardsplanning.
And I lived in a city veryrecently where my mother used to

(20:10):
just drive from her housetowards my house and like did
not have the destination and theGPS.
And then she would tell me likeokay, I'm by a brick building
and there's a woman in a pinkshirt, like do you know where I
am in the city?
And I was like no.
And I was like and mom, like noone gets in their car and just
drives in the direction thatthey're heading because you're
going to get lost and I'm notgoing to be able to find you.
And I feel like that about theend of a like the culminating

(20:33):
experience for Socratic Seminars, like you can't just get in on
that day and be like, here, youhave this great conversation.
It's just not going to happen.
But if, along the way, I'vegiven them tips and tricks and
directions and they kind of knowwhere we're going and the
vocabulary is built in and thenwe've had discussions about
things that are very similar andthen they get to this ending
point where they can have thisculminating experience, it makes

(20:54):
for a much richer and deeperSocratic seminar, because the
other 50% of Socratic seminar isjust a really good question,
right?
So I can ask a question like,do you like chocolate ice cream
or vanilla ice cream, and youcan have a discussion about it,
but there's not going to bedepth there.
So when I'm thinking about thecreation of a really good
question, it has to be somethingthat I know there can be really

(21:16):
deep discourse about and thathas to be in the backwards
design as well.

Lori (21:22):
Yeah, connected to what they're learning about.
Yeah, yeah, okay, so thinkingabout Socratic seminar is like
the big picture it's going to bebuilt in, uh, over time I'm
going to maybe even scaffold myquestions leading up to that
bigger question, right that thenthey're coming and they're
ready.
I'm I'm just picturing, likevery practically, I'm picturing

(21:44):
students coming with theirnotebooks, having their
vocabulary, having theirpictures drawn, having anything
like glued in that they mightwant to refer to or point to,
and they are not surprised, likethey have.
They know the question, right,that they're going to be
answering.
I, this is not a surprise tothem, right?
I see you nodding your head.

(22:09):
So if you're listening, jamie'snodding your head.
Yes, there's no surprises here.
We're preparing our kids well,so like on, and all students
participate in this.
Jamie, I hear you saying thatthey're.
They might have a coin, they'regoing to participate, they know
their value add, their rolesand they see where this all fits
into the big picture.
Yeah, I'm wondering if we cankind of flip, cause I mentioned
fishbowl earlier and if anyteachers who are still listening
are thinking okay, so what'sthe difference between a
fishbowl and a Socratic seminar?

Melissa (22:29):
And you mentioned that video was inside out, which I
think is similar.
Yeah.

Lori (22:32):
I did write that down too, melissa.
I was like, and we said it'ssomething else.
So, jamie, we're going to turnit to you.
Can you clarify for us maybe?
Like, what is a fishbowl?
And, melissa, is that a synonym?
For I would use it as a synonym.
I think inside out is.

Melissa (22:49):
I'll ask Jamie though.

Lori (22:50):
I've been using it as a synonym.
Okay same, I wasn't sure.
Okay yeah.

Jami (22:57):
Because to me, a fishbowl is like there's a group that's
having their discussion on theinside and then there's a group
that's sitting on the outside,or a circle inside-outside
circles.

Lori (23:03):
Sure, inside-outside, outside-inside.
Are you singing the song fromRecess?
Do you guys know what I'mtalking about?
No, oh my gosh, you didn't growup in South Jersey.
Okay, carry on.

Jami (23:13):
Amazing.
So I think one of the thingsthat is really I'll hear from
even colleagues that will sayI'm scared to try a Socratic
seminar because it feels like ahuge group Then I feel like
Fishbowl or Inside OutsideCircles is a nice place to start
right, because it's half ofyour class is having a
discussion on the inside, theother half is able to listen on

(23:35):
the outside, and then they'dswitch and they have an
opportunity to come to theInside Circle and be an observer
on the outside.
But I think for some teacherswho are maybe feeling that
anxiety of not really sure howthis is going to go, starting
with inside-outside can be areal opportunity to help guide
the learning.
It's still a student-leddiscussion.
So for my perspective, if I'mdoing inside-outside, I'm not a

(23:56):
voice that's in thatconversation, I'm just an
observer both times.
And again, I think picking ofthe groups and the way that you
create those inside-outsidecircles is sort of like every
teacher is a little bit magicand it's sort of like that's
part of the magic of teaching,is like knowing, like I'm going
to need some multilinguallearners in each of my groups.
I'm going to need students whoare striving readers in each of

(24:17):
my groups and really buildingout an opportunity to have kind
of a diverse team.
That's having that conversationand then switching, can be
really powerful.
Something that again alwaysfeels like more obvious to me
than it did, like the momentbefore it happened, is sort of
that outside circle, reallyvaluing being able to hear what

(24:38):
their peers have to say, becauseyou just listen in a different
way when you don't have to talkright, when you can actually
really listen.
Because if you're on thatinside circle, you're listening
while processing to get youranswer together and if you're a
multilingual learner, that's alot.
So you have to be hearing whatpeople are saying and be
processing for the next idea,whereas if you're sitting on the

(25:00):
outside and you're amultilingual learner, what a
real gift it is to be like I'mjust processing what people are
saying and then when it's myturn to go in, I can practice
with my language.

Lori (25:11):
Such a good point, jamie.
I'm wondering if you can giveus any tips or any thoughts on
the engagement for that outsidecircle, like how does it not
become unwieldy?

Jami (25:23):
That's a really good question and like I think it's
okay if sometimes it does right,like so that goes back a little
bit to like you're still cooland we're still figuring it out.
I read this incredible bookthis fall.
It just came out and if youdon't have a copy of it, I want
you to pick up a copy.
It's called Failabration andit's all about, like celebrating
your failures and it hasradically changed when we make

(25:45):
mistakes.
So like I might say to myoutside circle team, like we're
going to have to have a littlebit of a fail-abration when
we're done here, friends,because it's a little too noisy
on the outside and we need to belistening and we just send each
other, like you know, positiveenergy or a woo after after for
our fail-abration.
But it's really been like thistactile thing that I've used
fairly successfully this year tosort of be like that wasn't

(26:06):
exactly what I was looking for.
You're still cool and we're notgoing to be like upset about it
or never, never, have aSocratic seminar ever again, but
just like that we can do better, right, and sort of what that's
going to look like.
I also think like one of thethings that I've leveraged is
like, I'm not going to ask youto participate in that
conversation, but I am going toask to hear from you know, like

(26:29):
an equity stick, pull one or twoof the outside circle friends
about what they heard before weswitch to inside, outside, so
they don't know who's going toget pulled and they don't really
know what I'm going to exactlybe asking them about what they
heard.
I mean, typically it's sort oflike can you not summarize, but
can you tell me a little bitabout what you heard this
student say?
Or can you tell me a little bitabout what this student said?
Or did you hear anybody thatagreed, who agreed with each

(26:51):
other, who disagreed with eachother?
And so they have to belistening in case their equity
stick is pulled.
But again, I think as educatorswe have to like, lean into, like
it being a little bit of amessy thing when you first get
started and the more you can doto create those routines that
are sort of like I just grabbedmy can of equity sticks and they

(27:12):
all know like, oh, she's goingto pull one.
The end of this.
We got to be ready to like,have something in our mind and
be ready to have thatconversation with her I think is
a huge factor.
I've also done it where, like,I want them not in this outside
circle because I think that canbe really distracting, but it's
sort of like, right when theinside circle is done, I want

(27:33):
the outside circle to go, addsomething to their drawing or
write something that they heardthat was said, so that they know
they have an actionable purposebefore they switch into the
inside circle.
And again, it might besomething as simple as like
they're just checking off thatthey did the same thing, like
they're just checking off thatthey did the same thing, or they
heard the same thing that theywrote on their paper.
But it's that action of likethere is something to be done
and not just like thispassiveness of sitting and

(27:54):
listening.

Lori (27:56):
Yeah, that's a good point.
That does make so much sense.
Yeah, I asked that because Ididn't really try this until I
taught fifth grade and it was, Iremember, with the students
Fishbowl or Inside Out, whateveryou want to call it with the
students who were like amped upto talk.
They were in it to win it.
But the other students weresometimes a little bit hesitant,

(28:18):
and so sometimes I rememberusing like a little checklist
for them, or like I had astudent come who didn't speak
any English at all and Iremember having just like a
checklist for him of liketalking, you know, not talking
like and then like maybe justlike a little question, and like
he could participate indifferent ways, like touching
vocabulary that we were workingwith in addition to these like

(28:40):
executive functioning thingsthat were happening in front.
So I love that idea just ofeven an equity stick or going to
add something to a drawing or adiagram, something to create
involvement and engagement.
That's kind of low pressure butalso does set the stakes of,
hey, we're all stillparticipating, we're all still
learning here, and it wasn'tyour time to be like super

(29:01):
active in the middle of thecircle, but you're still
responsible for learning duringthis time.

Jami (29:05):
Yeah, and it's still not an I gotcha or an aha.
Like you know, like I want youto feel really successful, so
it's never going to be like,when you go to add it to your
paper, that like, oh, you didn'thave anything to write, like I
want you to have something toadd to your paper, but I feel
like I have to move away fromlike you're not getting
penalized because you didn'thave something to add.
It's really about adding toyour own thinking.

Melissa (29:35):
I was going to say that I thought the hardest part of
doing a Socratic seminar in myclassroom was really getting
them to listen to each other andnot just like putting their
pennies in and saying they weredone, you know, but really
listening and all these thingsyou're talking about, plus the
like having a really goodquestion that you mentioned
earlier, but all of these, likethere's a reason for listening.
That's why we're doing this.
It's not just about you sayingsomething right, but it is a
whole conversation, so you'relearning from each other as well
.
So I think that you've givensome really good tips for that

(29:55):
as well.
Thank you.

Lori (29:57):
Yeah, and there's so much value to me in both protocols,
if you will right, like bothspeaking protocols either the
Socratic seminar or the fishbowlslash inside out.
I know, though, there areprobably more, but these are the
two we're just focusing ontoday, and I think it's really
helpful to think what does myclass need right now, what would

(30:17):
be a stepping stone to get toan end goal that I have for them
, and I love thinking about howto use these two protocols
specifically to kind of scaffoldwhere we are or where educators
listening are, and how to getmy students to where we want
them to be in terms of learningall of the content that they
need to learn.

Melissa (30:37):
So, to wrap up, Jamie, it's pretty obvious that you
really value academic talk inyour classroom from everything
that you've mentioned, but I'mwondering if you want to just
share a little bit about why isit so important to you to have
this academic talk and for yourstudents to to be talking in
your classroom?

Jami (30:55):
Sure, I mean, I think, and I always like hold this story
and value it so much becauseit's sort of like the reason I
became an educator as well, andthat is that I'm a multilingual
learner.
So I was adopted from SouthAmerica when I was three years
old and I came to this countrynot speaking any English and I
grew up like really wanting tobe the best I could ever be as a

(31:18):
kid.
Now, as an adult, I get alittle verklempt about it
because it is like that momentas an educator where I wish that
I had access to academicdiscourse.
When I was growing up, I wentto school when we were quiet and
you sat and you listened andthat's what you were to do.
And I think as a little kid Iwas always worried about getting

(31:39):
sent back and my adoptivefamily was always like you were
never going to send you back.
What do you have in your mind?
I was like I know, and Icouldn't tell you as like a
little kid that I was likefeeling those feels, but I
wanted to and there just wasn'troom for academic discourse at
that time and I think if therewas, I would have had a lot to
say, but I was sort of likeworking really hard to like just

(32:02):
kind of hold it all in.
And it's why, like, I didn'treally weed out of multilingual
learning support until I was insixth grade.
And I meet educators now who arelike what, like how, how did
that happen?
And I was like, because Iwasn't talking right, I wasn't
really given the space to beable to do that, and so it
matters to me so much that mykiddos don't have that feeling

(32:25):
that their voice is so importantand it matters so much and they
matter.
But also the opportunity to tryout their English and their
skills is so important.
I will never know none of uswill what the backpacks are that
I walk into my room every dayand what they're filled with.
And so, whether it's throughadoption or through moving to

(32:46):
this country as a new person, Ijust I want them to know that
this space is an opportunity tohave deep conversations,
critical learning is happeningand that academic discourse is
so important.
Even when it's messy and evenwhen it's a little bit loud and
boisterous, that's okay.
And I think there's a little bitof like the little Jamie, the

(33:10):
little me.
That's like if someone hadgiven me the opportunity to be
in a Socratic seminar when I wasin second grade.
I feel like maybe my trajectoryin education would have been a
little bit different, because Iwas always the kid that felt
like I was trying to keep up andI wanted to be good enough to
keep up with everybody else andI would go back in time and sort
of be like no, you are, youtotally are.
And like I would go back intime and sort of be like no, you
are, you totally are, and likeyou should be having

(33:31):
conversations.
So I make it a huge part of, Ithink, my classroom because I
know for so many of my learnersit's important for them.

Lori (33:41):
Sorry, no, you're so inspiring.
I just want to tell you thatyou're so cool.
Thanks Really, though.
This is you're just amazing,jamie, and we're so lucky to
have talked with you, and Ican't thank you enough I know
melissa can't either for beinghere today and for sharing
everything that happens in yourclassroom, and for sharing that
story that helps us reallyunderstand why this is so

(34:03):
important to you.
Thanks.
Now let's hear from fourthgrade teacher Lauren Proffitt.

Melissa (34:21):
Hi Lauren, Welcome to the podcast.

Lauren (34:22):
We are so excited to have you here and hear all about
what you do in your classroomwith academic talk.

Lori (34:24):
We are very excited.
Hi, thank you so much for oracyand I think it would be helpful
for our listeners too, for youto define oracy in that response
to your school-wide goal onoracy and what that looks like.

Lauren (34:43):
Sure Oracy is the ability for anyone to articulate
ideas, develop understandingand engage with others through
spoken language.
So our students are learningthrough talk and learning how to
talk.
They are deepening theirknowledge through talk that has
been planned, modeled,scaffolded and structured for

(35:07):
them.

Lori (35:08):
Amazing.
And so how did your schoolchoose to focus on Oracy and
what is the actual goal for yourschool?

Lauren (35:15):
The goal was originally created so that students would
be speaking more in every singlelesson, regardless of content.
So Oracy has become a mechanismfor us for teaching and not
something that we're doing inaddition to everything else.
So it's not this addedcomponent to our day, it's how

(35:36):
we are facilitating learning forstudents.
So they are constantly speaking.
We expect students to speakmultiple times throughout a
lesson.
In fact, we know like the mosteffective teachers are requiring
students to speak three to fivetimes per minute for shorter

(35:57):
responses and then givingstudents an opportunity to speak
once a minute for, like, morethoughtful questions.
So students at our school arespeaking several times a lesson.
They know it's not an option.
We require them to speak incomplete sentences, always,

(36:21):
regardless of whether we'reasking them an academic question
or it's something else.
So we've really created anenvironment where students are
constantly speaking.

Lori (36:35):
That's so cool.
So why is this important toyour school?
And I would love to hear why isit important to you in your
classroom and a little bit ofwhat it looks like there.

Lauren (36:47):
I think if we are asking students to learn something new
, their background knowledge islargely invisible to us unless
they are talking.
So we need to be asking themquestions and they need to be
given the opportunity to speak.
So it's really become thefoundation for how I quickly

(37:08):
gather what students know abouta topic and what they do not
know.
I think it's also incrediblyimportant for preparing them for
the future, for when they havea job and they're asked to
converse with coworkers, theyneed to be able to develop a
claim and provide evidence tosupport that and reasoning, and

(37:29):
so it's not just an academicskill, it's a lifelong skill,
and their voice is what is goingto create opportunities for
them down the line, and we'rereally trying to hone those talk
skills so that they have asmany opportunities as possible.

Melissa (37:49):
Yeah, I love that your whole school is focusing on this
.
That that is really admirable,that it's not just you alone in
your classroom, and I also lovethat you all think of it not as
something separate.
You know you sometimes seethose oh, we have speaking and
listening standards we have tomeet and now that's a whole,
nother thing and it's more timeand that's stressful as a
teacher always.
So I love that you see it aslike that's how we get to what

(38:12):
we're teaching.

Lauren (38:41):
Some component of our PD is focused around oracy and how
we are promoting thesepractices in our classrooms and
just different strategies, sothat it's not just something
we've talked about once or twice.
We continually come back to itand I think that's really
important for everyone, but alsofor teachers who are new to the
building and who are trying toestablish those routines in
their classrooms as well.

Melissa (38:53):
So that's what we want to hear about now.
We want to hear about thoseroutines, because you know just,
you can't just ask students totalk more, right, you have to be
able to make them into somelike structures and routines
that they know.
And so can you tell us aboutsome of the more of the small
scale ones, the ones you do allthe time, every day, that are

(39:13):
within your lessons?

Lauren (39:15):
From the very beginning of the year.
We or at least in my classroomwe provide students with
sentence stems so that ifthey're in a situation where
they're not sure how to respond,they have that scaffold in
place At this point in the year.
A lot of them don't even needthat, however, I think it's

(39:36):
helpful for new students to seewhat this looks like and to have
something to fall back on.
We are from the start of theday, from morning meeting on.
Students are turning andtalking with a partner.
They're turning and talkingwith their table.
So setting that foundation withlow stakes tasks is helpful.

(39:57):
We a couple of strategies thatI employ throughout the day.
We use a traverse, which iswhere students line up and they
move down a line and answer andelaborate on a question that is
posed.
So, for example, yesterday inmath I had them stand up and the

(40:18):
question I first posed was isit possible for a triangle to
ever have parallel sides?
And they had a minute to think.
They shared.
Their partners have to repeatback to them what they said.
So it's not just abouteliciting responses, it's also

(40:39):
about encouraging the listeningand then adding on to what their
partner said.
So it's not just we don't seekids just wanting to speak.
We're requiring them to listenand elaborate and start to build
conversations.

(41:00):
At the beginning of the yearit's harder for that to take
place.
They want to just share whatthey know and they want to add
their own ideas, and so it'sreally.
We have to take time out toplan and have them listen back.
So sometimes I'll record themin a conversation and say what
did you notice about thisconversation?
And almost immediately studentswill say oh, I noticed we

(41:24):
weren't elaborating on what eachother would say.
And some students will say Inoticed that we say we want to
add on to what they said, butthen we're just introducing a
new idea.
So it's really.
It's a harder skill to developthan it would seem, but once we

(41:44):
get there they really are havingreally meaningful conversations
.
Another strategy that we use isa mix and mingle, so students
are moving throughout the room.
It's a great way to get them upand moving If they need a brain
break.
You pose a question, they pause, they discuss, we move again,

(42:07):
and so they're adding on totheir response each time, using
that academic vocabulary andsharing what their previous
partner said, so that it's notjust the same canned response
each time.

Melissa (42:22):
Yeah, can you mentioned one of the tasks you use for
the traverse, but can you, likeI'm just thinking, what kinds of
tasks would would you?
Or questions, would you ask fora turn and talk, like you said,
a low stakes kind of question,versus ones where you would say,
okay, this is worth us gettingup doing the traverse, or mix
and mingle so that they'relistening, they're able to like

(42:44):
go back and forth in thisconversation.
Can you think of, like, thedifference between those kinds
of questions you would ask, yeah, Sure.

Lauren (42:51):
So typically for the Traverse, I would ask a more
thought-provoking question.
So something that's coming upis students will be asked beyond
and this is shifting from mathto ELA but they would be asked
to think about, beyond theloyalist and patriot perspective
during the American Revolution,what are some other

(43:14):
perspectives that are importantfor us as the learner to take
into account.
So they would want to be, wewould be looking for them to
talk about the perspective ofAfrican Americans or the Native
Americans or people who were onthe fence.
They didn't know, they didn'treally connect with one side or

(43:35):
another, the Quakers.
So that would be more of atypical traverse discussion.

Melissa (43:42):
So there's lots of different answers they could be
listening for and talking about.

Lauren (43:47):
Exactly.
And so then that way they arenot just like I said, they have
to repeat back to them what theysaid and then they have to add
on on and then they're movingdown the line and they're
sharing what their previouspartner said.
But that could go on forprobably 15 minutes without
having to like stop and pulleveryone back together, because
at that point we've had thestudents have engaged in so much

(44:10):
learning and have read a numberof texts and have developed the
vocabulary that they're veryeasily able to do that A mix and
mingle.
We could do something similar,but that's a little bit more low
stakes.
That would be something we usemorphology as part of, well, an

(44:35):
extra piece of ELA.
So we, I might ask them, standup, they do the mix and mingle
and I ask them to use a prefixor a root word and a sentence
and then they share back.
So really it's about justkeeping them talking and engaged
.
So I'll use that more when Ifeel like they need a break and

(44:59):
they need to get up and move.
But I also want it to bepurposeful and you know I don't
want to like have everythingdevolve into chaos.

Melissa (45:07):
But I even see, even with that one, but especially
the traverse that you mentioned,like they might go in with just
one thought right, but thenthey, by the time they go and
sit back down, it's like, oh, Ihave all these other
perspectives or all these otherwords that use that, that route.
You know they can see, hearfrom all their.
You know, it's not, it is aboutthe talk, but it's also that
they're learning from each otherand have more ideas when

(45:29):
they're done.

Lauren (45:30):
Yes, so another great thing about the orSC strategies
is that we will often use themprior to beginning a piece of
writing so that we are gettingthem thinking and they're
hearing from multiple otherstudents and they are able to

(45:53):
then they've said it, so thenthey can much easy, much more
easily go write about it.
So we've found that if they cansay it, they can write it, and
this looks different for allstudents, right, we have very
high achieving students whosewriting is above grade level,
but we've also found that forthe students who need the most

(46:16):
support, the Oracy has made sucha difference because they are
constantly being asked to relyand think back on the knowledge
that they've built, and so,paired with a knowledge building
curriculum, it's really a gamechanger.

Lori (46:35):
Yeah, I totally agree.
I think kids need to havesomething to talk about in order
to really deeply talk or evenjust, like you said, like get
the juices flowing on.
Like a surface level.
Even with a vocabulary term ormorphology, they have to be able
to put it into context and tobe able to do that effectively,
you need to have something totalk about and then to write

(46:56):
about.
To write about Exactly, I love,I love thinking about Oracy as
the bridge to writing, and Iknow sometimes writing can be
the bridge to Oracy.
Um two, do you have anythoughts on that, lauren?

Lauren (47:09):
Yeah, I think it can go both ways.
I I a lot of times we'll dolike a think, write, pay or
share, and so that you know, wewant them to think about what
they know and elaborate on atopic beforehand and then go
share.
I think that's helpful to getsome basic ideas down on paper.

(47:31):
Big picture, though, I reallythink that the speaking and
listening piece of it reallysupports the writing so much,
and even in a way where studentspair up and they can fill out
an outline pretty quickly abouta specific question and then

(47:56):
they can go back and they canrefer to their text and their
different sources and add to itthrough writing.
But I think the talking aboutit beforehand is so powerful for
so many of them.

Lori (48:08):
Yeah, for sure, 100%.
I love that.
You said if you can say it orif they can say it, they can
write it.
That's 100% true.
That's like my big takeawayhere.
So, all right.
So I'm thinking about how youmanage all of this in your
classroom.
There's a lot of routines andI'm sure there's a lot of
practice and a lot ofpreparation and a lot of setup.

(48:31):
So would you share with us howyou manage all of these routines
within your classroom?

Lauren (48:39):
I think it's really important to think about both
like strategic, like talk moves,and when you're going to use
them.
So, like I mentioned previously, we pull a lot of our
questioning from the curriculum,the writing pieces of it, small
or large but also thinkingabout where are students sitting

(49:04):
, who are they going to turn andtalk with when it's just a
quick turn and talk, right.
So we set that up from day one.
This is your shoulder partner.
We set that up from day one.
This is your shoulder partner.
These are like when I say tabletalk, you're turning and
everybody at the table islooking at each other.
One person is speaking at atime and I'll stop them and I'll

(49:26):
say I see three people at tabletwo talking, stop, start again.
And so we really practice thatfrom day one so that when I do
give them those opportunities,they understand one person is
speaking at a time.
They have signals that we useto show agreement, disagreement,

(49:48):
they want to add on that sortof thing.
We have those sentence stemsboth on the board and on a card
ring at their table so that theycan grab those if they need
them.
We utilize the vocabulary wallso that they have access to that
.
So we just have all of thesepieces that are there to serve

(50:11):
as a support and at this pointin the year it's a pretty fine
tuned.
Can you share?

Lori (50:17):
with us the, the gestures Like when I I remember using
this one.
Like I agree, like this, justthe sign language gestures Like
I agree, I disagree.

Lauren (50:27):
Yeah, they.
They do this if they want towant to build on to what
somebody else is saying.

Melissa (50:32):
What are you doing, lauren, for?

Lauren (50:33):
I know, I didn know, I didn't do it either.
Yeah, oh sure.

Lori (50:38):
It's hard to explain.
Put your hand into a fist andthen take one hand and put it
over the other one to add on yes.

Lauren (50:46):
And then they just shake their hand to show that they
might disagree.
Yeah, like a flat palm back andforth.
A flat palm back and forth toshow that they might disagree,
or I don't know what.
Yeah, like a flat palm back andforth A flat palm back and
forth to signal that theydisagree and would like to share
why they disagree.

Melissa (51:06):
Can I just jump in real quick?
I know it seems so simple andI'm probably preaching to the
choir with teachers here, butthe way you just said that you
make sure they know who theirpartner is and you already have
that planned, I know it seems sosimple, but I watched my son
six and he goes to differentsports and like there's some
that he goes to where they'llsay find a partner.
And it is just chaos when thathappens versus when they're like

(51:28):
you two together, you twotogether, you two together done.

Lauren (51:32):
Exactly yes.
So at their tables they have anassigned shoulder partner.
When we get up and do a mix andmingle, I play music.
When the music stops, they goback to back with the person
closest to them and that's it.
They know they're not movingaround the room trying to find
their best friend.
We just have that routine inplace and we practice that.

(51:57):
Right, and I think teachershave to become comfortable with
practicing these things andsaying that didn't meet my
expectation.
Go back to your seats.
We're going to try this again,because you don't want to be
having that conversation inJanuary.
Right, like, at this point weare dialed in, we are focused on
the content and we don't havetime to send you back to your

(52:18):
seats and try it again.
But I will, right, like, thoseare just things that you have to
do after major breaks and justto revisit the expectations.
So I think teachers just needto get comfortable with if it
doesn't look and sound the wayyou want it to sound, try it
again.

Lori (52:35):
You just answered.
The question I was going to askis like sound the way you want
it to sound?
Try it again.
You just answered.
The question I was going to askis like, how do you keep it
from getting to be too chaotic?
And what I'm hearing you say ispractice these routines,
practice them a lot in thebeginning of the year and then
reset those expectations throughstructured practice after big
breaks, even if, you know, on arandom Tuesday it's just not
going the way.

(52:56):
Like me, I'm just thinking maybethere's an assembly everybody's
pumped for and you know they'reall out of control and just
really psyched up about it.
So you're going to reset thatexpectation throughout the day,
throughout the weeks, throughoutthe year, as needed, and just
do a lot of practice or justresetting.
Yes, awesome.
So I'm wondering how you mightdo this.

(53:17):
If you said, like this is likesomething that you do in your
classroom and your school hasthese oracy goals, are other
teachers in your school doing itthe same way?
Are they doing it a little bitdifferently?
Does your school do this likebig picture for planning, like
how does it look in your schoolbuilding?
And then what happens if, like,you're doing things a little
bit planning, like, how does itlook in your school building?
And then what happens if, like,you're doing things a little
bit differently, like, is thatokay?

(53:39):
How does it work?

Lauren (53:40):
Yes, we.
So we have an incredible amountof autonomy with how we roll
this out in our own classrooms.
Right, we all are aware of thedifferent oracy practices that
are available to us, but I thinkeveryone has the two or three
that really make the most senseto them and are easiest for them
to implement with theirstudents.

(54:03):
So this might not look exactlythe same in every single class,
but I can say that every singleteacher in this building is
thinking about the questionsthat they're asking their
students, thinking about howthey're asking them so that
students are having theopportunity to respond as

(54:26):
frequently as possible.
I have a colleague inkindergarten who I collaborate
with pretty closely, and I wasin her room before winter break
and the way that thekindergartners are able to
discuss in science they werelearning about tugboats and

(54:50):
forces and just the conversationthat conversations that
five-year-olds can have when youstructure the environment so
that they're required to talk isincredible.
It really is special, and so youknow you see this at different
levels and throughout thebuilding, but everybody is

(55:14):
focused on it, and we see thatwhen we get a new group of
students each August and you, ofcourse, have to remind students
what this looks like and soundslike, but since it's a
school-wide goal, we don't haveto explain why it's important.
Students understand why it'simportant.

(55:35):
They feel more confidentbecause they are constantly
being asked to recallinformation and build upon each
other's ideas.
So I think the main takeaway isthat we have students who feel
empowered and confident to speakabout things.

(55:57):
In fact, we hear from parentsoften that they come home, they
get in the car and they shareyou know what they've learned at
school and the parents are justblown away by the vocabulary
and the way that students areable to sustain a conversation
about a certain topic.

Lori (56:21):
So, lauren, I think it's amazing that you got to go see a
kindergarten teacher and whatit looks like in that classroom.
How often do you get to do that?
Or was it just like, oh, we'rebuddies, I'm going to stop in
because I feel super comfortable.
Or are those activitiesstructured through your school?
Is it something where you'relike, okay, I get to go see this
teacher this day?
I remember I had an amazingprincipal who facilitated those
opportunities for us at oneparticular school that I worked

(56:44):
in and it was so amazing just tostep into other teachers'
classrooms, you know, even if itwasn't the same grade and just
see how they were facilitatingvery similar focuses like our
foci that we were working on inour classroom.

Lauren (57:00):
Yeah, that's something that we are currently like.
Building out is the peerobservation model.
We have a mentor-mentee programhere, so the mentors go in and
observe their mentee and then wego and visit a classroom that's
doing something or focusing ona goal that our mentees might

(57:25):
have.
So we are popping in and out ofclassrooms to get ideas, to see
best practices.
So hopefully in the next fewmonths that will be more of an
opportunity for everyone.
I do think it's so incrediblypowerful to be able to go in and
see what's happening in otherclassrooms.

(57:45):
I can be in a classroom forfive minutes and walk out with
three new ideas of how to dosomething, and I think it just
keeps things fresh and itprevents you from becoming
stagnant.
So I just think it's the morethat we can do that, I think,
the better.

Melissa (58:06):
Lauren, I want to switch gears a little bit here.
I know we talked about thoselike quick routines, some a
little bit more extended, butstill ones you might do more on
a daily basis.
But I know you also do somemore extended, but still ones
you might do more on a dailybasis.
But I know you also do somemore extended, in-depth
discussions, like the Socraticseminar type of discussions,
which they can be tough tomanage for sure.
So we want to hear from youwhat are some tips you have on

(58:26):
how teachers can manage thosetypes of discussions.

Lauren (58:30):
Yeah.
So I think I always start withidentifying the question that's
going to be asked and then thesub questions that might come
off of that, and so it's allbuilt upon the knowledge
building curriculum, whether itbe an ELA or science or social

(58:51):
studies.
And so students come to adiscussion with their research,
with their text, with theirnotes.
We ask, we pose the questionahead of time, we give them, you
know, the planning time to gothrough and find evidence and
think about how they're going toelaborate on the evidence and

(59:12):
their reasoning.
And then, before we have theactual discussion whether it be
a fishbowl or a Socratic seminar, or sometimes I'll split the
class in half so that studentsare given more opportunities to
speak we have like apre-discussion meeting where

(59:33):
students are a pre-discussionmeeting where students are
determining a speaking andlistening goal for themselves.
They're thinking and reflectingon the last time we've done
this.
So I pulled a couple ofexamples.
One of my students before breaksaid they wanted to seek first

(59:54):
to understand, and to them thatmeant asking questions and
finding their voice, but alsoknowing when to listen and
knowing when to help otherpeople find their voice if they
felt like someone wasn't beinggiven the opportunity to share.
Some other goals that they hadwere to synergize around a topic

(01:00:17):
so that the discussion stayed.
You know we maintained the.
We stayed on the question, weweren't veering too far off, but
also introducing new evidenceso that they aren't all sharing
the same evidence, which can behard in a fourth grade class
because we only have so manytexts that we have used

(01:00:41):
throughout the module.
Some other goals that they haveset are around maintaining eye
contact and showing that they'relistening by nodding and using
our hand signals, and knowinghow to respectfully disagree
instead of saying you're wrong,right, it's not, you're wrong,

(01:01:02):
it's I disagree.
My ideas are different and thisis why.
So those are all goals thatthey came up with during our
pre-meeting and I just it'sreally, it's really cool to see
them reflecting on theirprevious discussions and seeing

(01:01:23):
how they want to grow and becomebetter speakers, and listeners,
for that matter.

Melissa (01:01:28):
I love that they all have different things.
So that helps kind of managethe whole discussion If, like
you know, you're keeping it ontrack and you're making sure
everyone's voice is heard.
You know it kind of helps thediscussion to flow a little bit
better if everyone has theirpart.
But I'm wondering if do youexplicitly teach some of those
things at some point, like, I'mguessing, at the beginning of
the year, because I'm not surethat fourth graders would

(01:01:50):
necessarily know how to do thosethings.

Lauren (01:01:53):
In our first module for ELA there's a whole group
discussion that is suggested andI always take it and I break it
up and I hold five differentdiscussions and so I'll pull,
you know, a small group ofstudents back to my table and I
what I do is I always put astudent in charge so they will

(01:02:16):
post the question and then theysort of are the facilitator and
I just listen.
But something I do in thatfirst discussion is it's called
a spider web I write everyone'sname down on a paper and I draw
lines to show who's speaking,like so that I'm getting an idea
of how many times each personspoke.
And then I add notes to thatpaper as well.

(01:02:39):
Oh, they responded to what theperson before them said or they
brought up an entirely new idea,just so that I can sort of see.
And then we share that.
We finish the conversation.
I usually time it, and at theend of the conversation I say
how do you think that went?
And they're really like prettycritical of themselves at this

(01:03:00):
point, even at the beginning ofthe year.
So they usually have more likefeedback for each other than I
do.
But then I share, like this ishow many times this person
talked and I think next time weneed to make sure that we're
focusing on asking everyone elsewhat they think before we share
.
One more thing, right, and soit really is like, and if I feel

(01:03:23):
like a conversation is goingoff the rails a little bit, I'll
pause them and I'll jump inbecause I don't want it to be a
waste of time.
But sometimes if you give themthe time to grapple and sort of
try to get it back on the ontrack themselves, they'll get
there.
So I think it's just aboutknowing like OK, this is, we're
too far gone here, we need to, Ineed to intervene.

(01:03:44):
But they've gotten to the pointwhere you know they're pretty
cognizant of what's going on andthey'll like nudge each other
if they feel like somebody istalking too much and not giving
you know equal talk time to therest of the group.

Melissa (01:04:01):
And can I ask just one logistical question about this
that I never I don't think Iever mastered very well?
Do you grade a discussion andif you do, how do you keep track
of what's happening during this?
You mentioned the spider web,which I think would be one
helpful tool.
Is there anything else you dothat helps to like keep track so
that you can, or do you justnot grade it?
I'm just curious.

Lauren (01:04:22):
Well, so I don't.
It goes in it's participation,and but the most important part
of it for me is the feedback forthe students.

Melissa (01:04:35):
On that specific goal that they had to.

Lauren (01:04:37):
Yeah, so we shared before the discussion what, what
their goal is, and we also,like, I'll look at the speaking
and listening standards, forwe'll look at those there in
their ELA materials so they'llhighlight one that they want to
focus on and so when they bringtheir packet back to me, I'll
see what's highlighted, orthey'll have it out on their

(01:04:59):
table so I can see.
And it's a range, right.
So it's like developing ongrade level, like meeting
expectations, exceedingexpectations.
So I'll let them know that.
But then I think the you know,the verbal and like the written
feedback is also reallyimportant and I try to do that
pretty immediately.
So if we have a whole groupdiscussion, I'll stop and we'll

(01:05:23):
stop the discussion and at theend I'll ask, like, does anybody
have any feedback for eachother?
And they'll share out and theythey really do, at this point,
have good feedback for eachother.
But then I'll share out andthey really do, at this point,
have good feedback for eachother.
But then I'll share out somethings that I noticed different
students doing and then I'llmake sure that they get the
written feedback prettyimmediately so that they know

(01:05:45):
that's something that they needto work on for, you know, the
future.

Melissa (01:05:49):
Yeah those goals are helpful.

Lori (01:05:52):
Do you share the spider web with them?
Is that something?

Lauren (01:05:54):
I do.

Lori (01:05:55):
I feel like that'd be really helpful visually for me
to see if I were a student inyour class.
That should just kind of seelike, oh, okay, big picture,
where do I fit in?
And like, okay, this, thisperson is talking a little bit
more and like this person's nottalking.
So maybe I need to engage thisperson a little more, Like I'm
sure you could coach them to dothat, but that seems like such a

(01:06:16):
helpful tool.

Lauren (01:06:18):
Definitely, and I actually something that I did
this year for the first time isI had kept a couple of
spiderwebs from last year andbefore the first discussion I
put it under the doc cam.
I like crossed the names outfrom the students but I asked,
like what do you notice aboutthis spider web?
And it was one where I had twostudents who really dominated

(01:06:41):
the conversation and I wantedthe students to pick up on that
and I said, like, what questionsdoes this spider web elicit?
Like, because they've seen them, right, they I'm not the only
one in the building who's usingthem and so they had good
questions.
They said, well, did, did thisperson just not speak?
Did they not want to share?

(01:07:03):
Did they?
Were they absent a lot?
Did they not have the completedorganizer?
And they, you know they hadsome really good questions.
So, you know, I thinkencouraging them to be
thoughtful about that as well ashelpful.

Lori (01:07:16):
This is so amazing.
I feel like our teacher friendslistening have learned so much.
I know I would love to see oneof those spider webs and I just.
I think there's so many greatpieces of information that you
shared today.
I even especially love the ideaof, like you, breaking your
class into two during some ofthe bigger discussions so that

(01:07:37):
there's not as much likedowntime, if you will, for the
other kids, like, for example,in the Socratic or in the
fishbowl, like what a greatlittle tip, like once you have
those routines in place, you canbreak it into two and kind of
have them run it and you're justfacilitating between the two.
So so amazing.
We're so glad that you came onto talk with us, lauren.

(01:07:57):
We can't thank you enough.

Lauren (01:08:00):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
I appreciate it.

Melissa (01:08:05):
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Lori (01:08:15):
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Melissa (01:08:24):
Just a quick reminder that the views and opinions
expressed by the hosts andguests of the Melissa and Lori
Love Literacy Podcast are notnecessarily the opinions of
Great Minds PBC or its employees.

Lori (01:08:36):
We appreciate you so much and we're so glad you're here to
learn with us.