February 9, 2024 • 28 mins
Melissa and Lori just returned from the Plain Talk About Literacy & Learning Conference in New Orleans and they will share their takeaways with YOU! Attendees called in while at the conference to share aha moments and key takeaways. You won't want to miss this one!
2024 Plain Talk Conference Presenters
Podcast Episodes We Mentioned
- Episode 44: Elevating the Education Profession with The Right to Read Project
- Episode 116: Sonia Cabell on the Importance of Content-Rich ELA Instruction
- Episode150: Science of Reading for ALL Students: Intervention for Secondary Students
- Episode158: Science of Reading Beyond Phonics: The Ultimate Goal of Reading with Doug Fisher
- Episode 170: All About Read-Alouds with Molly Ness
We answer your questions about teaching reading in The Literacy 50-A Q&A Handbook for Teachers: Real-World Answers to Questions About Reading That Keep You Up at Night.
Grab free resources and episode alerts! Sign up for our email list at literacypodcast.com.
Join our community on Facebook, and follow us on Instagram, Facebook, & Twitter.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lori (00:00):
You're listening to.
Melissa and Laurie LoveLiteracy.
We just returned from the PlainTalk about Literacy and
Learning Conference in NewOrleans and learned so much.
Melissa (00:09):
This episode elevates our takeaways about structured
literacy and learning from thePlain Talk conference.
Let's jump in.
Lori (00:18):
Hi teacher friends.
I'm Laurie and I'm Melissa.
We are two educators who wantthe best for all kids, and we
know you do too.
Melissa (00:28):
We worked together in Baltimore when the district
adopted a new literacycurriculum.
Lori (00:33):
We realized there was so much more to learn about how to
teach reading and writing.
Melissa (00:38):
Laurie, and I can't wait to keep learning with you
today.
Jen (00:48):
My name is Jen and my biggest takeaway from the Plain
Talk conference is that thelearning journey is lifelong.
At any session you went to, youcould run into speakers from
other sessions sitting in ontheir colleagues learning new
things, and that reminded methat the learning is lifelong
(01:13):
and to never stop learning.
No matter how far along in mycareer I am, I can always learn
something new.
Melissa (01:26):
Hi, my name is Melissa and my biggest takeaway from
Plain Talk I actually have two.
It was so amazing to be able tosit in and listen to Dr Erie
talk about her work, and thenher additional suggestions on
how to move students ininstruction, and then Dr Cable's
emphasis on the importance ofconversation and five critical
(01:49):
turns you can make.
Elise (01:54):
Hi, my name is Elise Lovejoy and I'm calling because
I attended a session by LorraineHammond and she had an
incredible presentation on theurgency and prompting that needs
to happen in our classes andduring my intervention sessions
today, I required the kids torespond more often and at a
(02:19):
faster pace.
It was very successful and Ivery much appreciated listening
to her talk about how allchildren can read, no matter can
learn to read, no matter thezip code that they live in.
Lori (02:34):
We are debriefing the Plain Talk conference today,
sharing what we learned fromspeakers and sessions.
So, melissa, I know this is soexciting because we just got
back from the conference andlearned so much.
Melissa (02:45):
Yeah, from New Orleans, which is one of my favorite
places.
Yeah.
I used to teach there.
I did.
I used to teach there and livethere, obviously.
So, yeah, it was so fun to bein New Orleans, but we learned
so much.
I mean, by the end I was.
My brain was full, for sure,all the way full.
Lori (03:04):
Yeah, I was exhausted from my brain working overtime, but
we are going to recap oursessions today that we learned,
or that we that we were in andlearned so much in.
Melissa (03:14):
Some of them.
We should say that I mean, we'dbe here all day if we did all
of them.
Lori (03:20):
We chose a sampling and we tried to vary our choices.
Melissa (03:26):
But we saw a lot and learned a lot.
So do you want to kick us off,Lori?
Lori (03:30):
I'd love to.
So I saw a session titledBuilding Stronger Readers
Through Spelling with PamCastner, and my favorite thing
that came out of this sessionwas this takeaway when you're
teaching spelling, you'reteaching reading.
Spelling is a window intoreading needs and also, I should
say, reading strengths, sothat's really helpful.
(03:51):
I also appreciated that Pamsent everyone from the session
on the way with a padlet withresources.
I feel like she really getsteachers knowing that everybody
wants to learn after the session.
So you know, when you can spella word, you can read a word,
but the opposite isn't alwaystrue.
And she took us through alittle exercise where we all
thought we were excellentreaders and spellers and then we
(04:13):
realized, oh, we can spell somereally tricky words, like
fuchsia, but we can read them.
And if we are going toimplement a spelling scope and
sequence to align with whatwe're doing, it should be least
complex to most complex and mostfrequent to least frequent.
(04:37):
So that was a great takeawayand something really important,
I think, for teachers to knowand for practitioners in the
classroom.
If you're teaching spelling, tohave that mind and you know,
can of course, connect it towhat you're doing, not random
acts of spelling here and, youknow, keep it connected to
morphology, to your phonicsskills.
(05:01):
She did also provide a routinecalled a simultaneous oral
spelling and SOS routine forteachers and students to help
students focus on the individualsounds in words.
So I'll run through thatquickly and then, melissa, you
can let me know if you have anyquestions.
Sure, so.
Step one the student watchesthe teacher's mouth to see the
(05:22):
way sounds are produced.
So I guess, if you think aboutit during the COVID pandemic,
this is right, like when youthink about all the kids who had
went through there then withthe masks, that would be really
tricky.
Step two students repeat theword to stimulate the
articulators and look in themirror.
Students map sounds to fingersor chips so they might move
(05:45):
chips or hold their fingers upor tap.
Student writes the word, spellsthe word, and then students
says the word back to theteacher.
So a really simple protocolwhere students are getting lots
of reps, repetitions andpractice.
Pam also mentioned that moretheme matrices are helpful tools
(06:09):
as well, so I know that we'rebig fans of those too, melissa.
Melissa (06:15):
So for sure.
Yeah, and it sounds like I mean, what you just went through,
that was simultaneous oralspelling.
Yeah, sos, sos.
But it reminds me of our recentconversation with Matt Burns,
who's talking about connectingthat phonemic awareness with
letters, and it sounds like thathappens very quickly here.
Right, that you let the childhear quickly, but then you are
(06:38):
immediately attaching thoseletters so they're not just
hearing the sounds but they'realso connecting it to the
letters too.
Lori (06:45):
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, so, Melissa, I know wesat in another session together
and I wondered if you wanted tokick us off for that one.
Melissa (06:54):
Yeah, so this is one of our friends of the podcast,
sonia Cavill, who very funnily Iwas walking down the stairs
before her session so it was theday before and someone yells
Melissa, and so excited and Ifelt I didn't recognize her at
first because there's like amillion people at this
conference and so it took me aminute and then I was like, oh
(07:14):
my gosh, sonia Cavill.
I was so excited because welove her.
I forget what episode numbershe is, but yeah, it was so fun
to like meet her in person.
She's, she's wonderful, and soshe has a new book out with
Trisha Zucker called Strive forFive.
Is the rest of it what thetitle of the conference session
was?
The conference session wasStrive for Five Conversations to
(07:35):
Build Language Comprehension inPreschool through First Grade.
I'm guessing that's the titleof the book as well.
Lori (07:41):
The book is Strive for Five Conversations a framework
that gets kids talking toaccelerate their language
comprehension and literacy.
Melissa (07:52):
So actually it's different, but Strive for Five
is Strive for Five.
Sonia Cavill, trisha Zucker,you'll find it.
But it was really great, Ithink.
I think, going into it I knew Iwas like, ok, strive for Five,
you want to have five back andforth turns with someone while
you're having a conversation.
Seems easy enough, but I lovedhow she talked about why right,
(08:15):
that was a big thing, was like,well, why do we care about doing
this?
And I have I have my five yearold, so he was in my head the
whole time and it made so muchsense that like this is how you
can really like build these,like having one conversation on
one topic and building languageand building vocabulary really
(08:35):
makes a lot of sense as ateacher.
And I loved how she talkedabout it as just like a marginal
shift, which I was like, yes,that's so good, because I think
so often we want, you know, wewant that like thing that's
going to change everything andit's going to be this huge, big
new thing and I love that she's.
It's just little, it's just alittle shift in the way you do
(08:56):
things.
It's not like going to totallydisrupt what you're doing in the
classroom, just a little tinyshift in how you are talking to
your students, asking questions,responding to their questions,
so, or responding to theiranswers to questions.
So I just thought that wasexcellent.
I also loved that she brought upthe idea of good job as a
(09:20):
conversation stopper, and I amlike I'm guilty of this to all
the time, so don't feel bad ifyou're doing it, because I do it
all the time with with my son.
You know, it's just like, oh,look at this thing I made mom
and you're like that's great,nice work, and it is just like
that's the end of theconversation.
Right there, you know.
(09:41):
So it's so nice to think aboutthat, like okay, how do you keep
that going right, instead ofjust that good job and stopping
the conversation?
Lori (09:51):
Yeah, and I really connected that as as an to that
as an adult, to and I'll give anexample like if I walked into
Actually I feel like I did this,melissa, I walked into your
house Before you moved and you,you know, I that was the first
time I had been there in a whileand you had done some things
and instead of being like, wow,this is so nice, I think I asked
(10:13):
you some questions about it andI was intentionally doing that.
I had learned the skill andthen I was practicing it.
But if I had been like, wow,this is so nice, you've been
like, yeah, thanks, and theconversation would be over
versus, you know, oh, how didyou think to choose this color
on your wall?
Or why did you select thisartwork?
Or you know, where did you getyour furniture from?
(10:35):
Or what's the vibe you went forin here?
It opens it up and it's thesame for kids, and I was
thinking of that.
Melissa (10:42):
I don't say especially even more for kids.
Right, because I mean, as anadult, you could give me that
just oh, this looks great and Imight add on to it.
Right, because I'm an adult.
But it's unlikely that afour-year-old, five-year-old,
even six-year-old, like ouryoungest learners are going to
like have those conversationtechniques to be able to add on.
Lori (11:03):
Sure, and what I really liked about this too is that it
really does extend, not just forELA but to all content areas
and all areas Really.
I mean.
Even think about art, you know.
I mean, if it's a child'smaking a piece of artwork in art
class, instead of walking byand saying great job, that's
nice, you ask like, how did youthink to draw this, how did you
(11:24):
think to create that?
And really modeling thoseinquisitive, curious questions
and kids want to tell you aboutit.
And you know, I've tried thisat home with Press and I think
only one time in the history ofme asking her all of these
questions, she's she said like Idon't know, I just did.
And outside of that, I prettymuch always get a really great
(11:51):
response back.
That then prompts me to askanother question and and does
forge the conversation forward.
So it's exciting to think aboutmoving the conversations
forward and just strive for fiveand why that is important that
those five interactions overtime become really, really
meaningful for kids' languageand language comprehension, yeah
(12:13):
.
Melissa (12:13):
And just just to like stamp those five.
You know your teacher is thefirst turn, right?
So the asking that open-endedquestion and then the student
response.
However, they respond, right,and it might even be, like you
just said, lori, it might be aresponse like I don't know, I
just did right, but you canstill take that to your.
You know, your next turn couldbe like okay, you know she
(12:35):
called this scaffolding downright, like the, so might need
to scaffold that to.
Like okay, well, did you do itbecause of this reason or did
you do it for this reason?
Right, maybe give them someoptions if they weren't able to
explain themselves, so you givethem another chance to to to
talk about it.
But if they do give a, anactual response, then you
(12:55):
scaffold it up and right, youmight take it to the next level
like, oh, what made you think ofthat?
Or like, how does that connectto something else?
You've done this other paintingyou did the other day, you know,
so you can take it to anotherplace.
And then, you know, let let thestudent respond again.
That's the fourth turn and thenthe wrap up.
I liked that.
I always felt like that lastyou know time the teacher got to
(13:16):
say something was the the placeyou might like be able to like
add in some vocabulary, like, oh, that sounds like this thing
that we've been talking about inclass, and connecting it and
making it just just kind ofputting a stamp on it at the end
of the conversation?
Lori (13:32):
Yeah, and I think if you're curious about this when
Sonya's book and Trisha's bookdoes come out, because I think
it's on, it's an out, onpre-order.
I'm pretty sure it's outalready.
Okay, so we will get thatinformation for you in a moment,
but there are videos that goalong with it and so that is
super helpful if you would liketo see this in action.
(13:53):
It is out.
It's out by tomorrow.
I wasn't sure if it was out orpre-order.
All right, so onto the nextsession.
I saw another friend of thepodcast, doug Fisher, called
Interactive Read-Allowed.
Done right.
He based this on a 2004 pieceand then added onto it which
(14:15):
kind of made it really fun andspecial.
The 2004 piece was calledInteractive Read-Allowed is
their common set ofimplementation practices.
It was by Fisher Fry and LAP,and Doug's original piece called
out seven non-negotiables foran Interactive Read-Allowed that
there's a clear purposeestablished, that there's a text
(14:37):
selection that obviously islike, meaningful and worthy.
That we're previewing andpracticing the Read-Allowed as
teachers, as practitioners.
That students are doing somesort of independent reading and
writing connected to it.
That we are modeling fluentreading and being animated and
(14:59):
having expression.
And that we are discussing thetext and students are discussing
the text I'm sorry the text.
And then in this presentationDoug added three more to update.
So he added print referencing,so giving the students an
opportunity to see the text andreference the text.
That that's an importantfeature.
(15:19):
Again, that word that we justtalked about a whole lot with
Sonia, scaffold is coming up.
So scaffold work, when studentshave a mental model of success
and so they know what they'redoing.
The purpose is clear, the goalof this Read-Allowed is clear
and everybody understands theend goal.
And the third thing isthink-allowed from the teacher.
(15:41):
Doug likes to call themthink-alongs and I thought that
was fun and he also, of course,is like the king of the.
You know gradual release model,gradual release of
responsibility.
So one thing I thought would bereally important to note,
because Doug talked about itquite a bit, is that he said
anywhere in that gradual releasemodel you can start, anywhere
(16:04):
in there.
You don't have to start withthe I do, we do, you do.
It's not linear.
So, as you're doing aRead-Allowed, you might want
students to begin by talkingabout something, to review a
concept.
Well, that's kind of like theyou do right or the we do,
depending on how it looks, andthen you might come back
together Read-Allowed model andthen kind of release some
(16:27):
responsibility and come back.
So it doesn't have to be thislinear process in the gradual
release.
But here's the key Close theloop every day.
It has to close.
You can't leave it open.
It can't be I do, we do or youdo, I do.
We have to do all of thosesteps to bring the gradual
release to a full circle in theinteractive Read-Allowed and
(16:49):
just, I think, generallyspeaking in the bigger picture.
Melissa (16:52):
But for the case of this session in the interactive
Read-Allowed, and I'm assumingthat would kind of be driven by
the text.
If I was planning aRead-Allowed, I know that places
I would want to model would bedriven by the text.
Where is it that I want to showthem something tricky about the
text, or the vocabulary istough, or something that I want
(17:12):
to show them versus?
Where do I think I can just askthem a question here and we can
talk about it.
So did he talk about that?
Is that?
Am I on the right track?
Lori (17:24):
He did, yes, but I also.
I'll kind of share that inanother session.
So I don't know why.
I was really into Read-Allowed,this plain talk, and I saw
Molly Ness, who another friendof the podcast, speak about
Read-Allowed, episode 170.
Episode 170, and Doug was 158.
Oh, we have to give Sonia's oldepisode.
(17:45):
Do you know that number byheart?
No, but I can find it, we'llfind it out.
So in this session with MollyNess, she talked about how we
should pause for eight to 10think-alouds.
Right, modeling ourmetacognitive strategies,
modeling what we're thinking forour students, modeling.
(18:06):
I'm really confused here.
I'm going to pause and stop andreread.
Oh, I noticed this vocabularyword.
That's an interesting word.
I wonder if it's talking aboutthis character.
I wonder what so-and-so meantby that.
So really getting metacognitiveand just kind of saying what
we're thinking about eight to 10times throughout a text or
throughout a read-aloud.
I'm sorry, because I think ifwe're reading a text that is a
(18:28):
little bit longer for our olderstudents we would do it eight to
10 times throughout thatread-aloud and with our younger
students, eight to 10 timesthroughout a text or a
read-aloud.
That makes sense, melissa.
Melissa (18:40):
Yeah, that makes sense, and Sonia Cabell is 116,
episode 116.
Lori (18:45):
Cool, all right, we'll link all these in the show notes
.
Melissa (18:48):
The next session I went to was about fluency, which you
know is one of my favoritetopics, and the speakers were
Marianne Wolff and Melissa Orkin.
Marianne Wolff, who we're bothfamiliar with, read Proust and
the squid and we I know welisten to her on an MPR show and
maybe something else.
Um, and, and I'm just gonna behonest, we're like a little
(19:10):
intimidated by Mary Ann Woof,because she is extremely
intelligent, a very smart lady,not that no one else is, because
they really are no, I know, butI mean, yeah, I mean when, when
proust is in your title of yourbook, you know you're here,
you're a smart, smart lady, so Iwas very pleased that she's
(19:33):
hilarious and she made it veryeasy to understand.
So I was like, oh, thankgoodness, um, because my brain
was like not ready for Superheavy material.
But their session was calledthe future of fluency
instructional strategies thatreflect the reading circuit, um,
and they talked a lot aboutjust the you know amount of
(19:57):
students, the number of studentsthat they see all the time.
They said it's usually around70 of students that have fluency
issues, right, that need moresupport with fluency.
But what they said is whathappens often is like we, we do
the the regular things forfluency, which is aren't.
None of these things were bad.
They weren't saying what you'redoing is bad, you know, but
(20:17):
repeated readings, the you knowcoral reading and echo reading,
all of those, all of thosethings that are really good for
fluency.
But they said we might want todig a little bit deeper too,
right?
So, in addition to those, youmight want to think about that
this fluency issue just doesn'tlike stand on its own right.
So it's not like there are otherthings that affect A student
(20:41):
being able to read fluently andwe need to think about them all
because they all come together,um.
So that here.
Here was one way that Mary AnnWolf was very smart, so they
talked about theirmulti-componential you, yeah
right, multi-componential, um,the the way of of teaching
(21:01):
fluency was ismulti-componential, and that
helps to build the circuit.
And you might be familiar withthe acronym possum p o s s u m.
I know you are lory, I am.
Lori (21:13):
I know you only because Of I read an article about possum,
but I don't know if anybodyelse is familiar with possum
other than the animal right.
Melissa (21:22):
Which is a helpful way to remember it.
But those are the, those arethe different components.
So when we're talking about thedifferent components that might
affect a student's fluency,these are, these are the
different components.
So one is just phonemeawareness, right, so making sure
that students are actuallyhearing the right sounds, right,
so that's a place to start.
Or the graphic awareness thatthey're connecting those sounds
(21:43):
to the letters correctly, um, soyou know, you're like, yes,
this is just phonemic awarenessand phonics instruction, yes,
but some students might still beHaving struggles with that
which is affecting their fluency.
So that's something to thinkabout.
But then the s's are semanticword meaning and syntactic
knowledge, which is, which issentence level meaning, um,
which this was reallyinteresting to me because I
(22:07):
don't think we often connectmeaning and actually I'll throw
in the m here too which ismorphology, which is the
knowledge of the, the meaning ofword parts.
So all of those have to do with, like, the meaning, um, and,
and you know, you kind of thinkof it as well if a student can
decode, they have down thatphonemic awareness and the
orthographic awareness.
(22:28):
What do they need to know themeaning for fluency?
Yes, absolutely they do, andthey gave a really cool example,
um, with two words, one limeand the other word lie in Um and
they said, even though Lime istechnically easier to read in
terms of, like, just L, I, M, e,right, it's pretty
(22:50):
straightforward.
Lion is a little trickier, theway the I and the O make that
lion sound.
But because lion is such forkids, lion is like a more
familiar term.
They they understand what alion is.
Not all kids might have seen alime.
They don't talk about limesthat often maybe.
Maybe some kids do, but a lotof kids don't, right, it's not
(23:11):
something that Um kids see asmuch that they actually can read
the word lion quicker than theycan read Lime, which I just
thought was really interesting.
That, like because they havemore familiarity with it, they
have more of a meaning than theycan actually, they can actually
read it faster.
So their fluency is faster whenthey have more connections to
(23:34):
the meaning of the word, which Ijust thought was really cool.
Lori (23:37):
That is really neat and the you is understanding.
Melissa (23:40):
Thank you very easy, right?
Yeah, so that was.
That was their multi componentsand how just thinking about
fluency as more than just Wordcalling and rereading, and
thinking about all the differentcomponents that go into a
student being a fluent reader.
Lori (23:57):
Cool.
Did I tell you that I turnedaround and saw both Mary Ann
Wolfe and Melissa Orkin atdinner one night?
I know you didn't yeah, and Ialso heard somebody yell
Margaret and I was like that'sgotta be Margaret Goldberg,
there's not other Margaret.
Melissa (24:12):
No other.
Lori (24:12):
Margaret, yes from the right to read project, so I, of
course, ran over.
It's like Margaret, that's youand we.
So I met some former guests,which in person, which is so
nice, and Lonnie from the sameepisode as Margaret.
That was really awesome.
That was a while back.
And then I also met Amir Baraka, who wrote it was dyslexic,
(24:35):
wrote a book about hisexperience Growing up with
dyslexia, and it was just such athat was a night where I just
feel like I was Overwhelmed withmeeting people and my brain was
even more on overload.
Melissa (24:47):
We talked about him With Julie and Sherry and last
summer.
Yeah, I talked about him ontheir episode.
Lori (24:55):
Yeah, we did.
We're gonna have to link allthese episodes in the show notes
.
Okay, so I think one lastsession we want to talk about is
Denise I'd, which we both gotto go to.
We did it was really fun, andthe title is is it time to
rethink the definition ofphonics?
My big takeaway English islogical, so logical.
I loved learning about it.
(25:15):
I was pumped For all of thesecool rules that I didn't learn,
all of these morphology thingsthat I didn't know before.
So good, she's great.
If you don't, if you have notread uncovering the logic of
English, now is the time to pickit up.
Melissa (25:29):
I know, and you did you know, that Corey Jensen
Recommended that to us in hisepisode, which was many Episodes
ago.
Lori (25:37):
I don't remember that.
Melissa (25:38):
I know.
So we took a while to get onboard and we are telling you
that you should not wait as longas we should not wait, because
it is well worth it and itreally is just, I mean so
logical, right, and we, when youhear it, you know to hear
things like yes, you know theyeah.
There is a reason that there'san e on the end sometimes, and
(26:02):
it's not because it changes thevowel sound, right, sometimes
it's what words can't end in V,or you, so they just have an e
on the end For sure, and it justexplains it.
You're like, there you go,there's your explanation for so
many words.
Lori (26:17):
Yeah, so okay, I'll give you an example.
I just thought I followed logicof English on Instagram and
love how they put their therules up and the different
Things we should know.
So C always softens to one,followed by E, I or Y.
Melissa (26:34):
Otherwise C says and that explains circle and circus,
and and cylinder and catabsolutely yeah, and all of the
rules are also on her website,which is so, if you, you know,
not ready to get the book ordive into that, you can go to
(26:55):
logic of English calm and she.
She is not trying to, you know,make money off things.
She's trying to shareInformation.
So she puts all the rules theretoo.
So, you know, you know, don'teven have to buy the book, you
can just go there and see allthe rules, but if you want more,
buy the book for sure.
Yeah, yeah, it's very, very goodread.
Lori (27:15):
Yeah, so we have some new friends of the podcast.
After that conference it was sonice to make new friends and
Just kind of catch up witheveryone.
It was really fun to meet ourlisteners.
A lot of our listeners.
We're like, oh my gosh, you'remore listen, laurie, because we
had our sweatshirts on.
So that was really fun.
Melissa (27:34):
Can we say that we recorded with Denise I and she's
gonna be on soon?
Lori (27:39):
Yeah, she's gonna be on really soon we just so get ready
after yeah, yeah, we can't waitfor you to hear that
conversation.
She always blows my mind, solove it.
Thanks so much for listening.
Thanks, melissa, I'm glad wegot to do this.
Thank you everybody, thanks.
Melissa (27:54):
Laurie.
To stay connected with us, signup for our email list at
literacy podcast calm, join ourFacebook group and follow us on
Instagram and Twitter.
Lori (28:08):
If this episode resonated with you, take a moment to share
with a teacher friend or leaveus a five-star rating and review
on Apple podcasts.
Melissa (28:14):
Just a quick reminder that the views and opinions
expressed by the hosts andguests of the Melissa and Laurie
love literacy podcast Are notnecessarily the opinions of
great minds, pbc or itsemployees.
Lori (28:30):
We appreciate you so much and we're so glad you're here to
learn with us.
You're listening to.
Melissa and Laurie LoveLiteracy.
We just returned from the PlainTalk about Literacy and
Learning Conference in NewOrleans and learned so much.
Melissa (00:09):
This episode elevates our takeaways about structured
literacy and learning from thePlain Talk conference.
Let's jump in.
Lori (00:18):
Hi teacher friends.
I'm Laurie and I'm Melissa.
We are two educators who wantthe best for all kids, and we
know you do too.
Melissa (00:28):
We worked together in Baltimore when the district
adopted a new literacycurriculum.
Lori (00:33):
We realized there was so much more to learn about how to
teach reading and writing.
Melissa (00:38):
Laurie, and I can't wait to keep learning with you
today.
Jen (00:48):
My name is Jen and my biggest takeaway from the Plain
Talk conference is that thelearning journey is lifelong.
At any session you went to, youcould run into speakers from
other sessions sitting in ontheir colleagues learning new
things, and that reminded methat the learning is lifelong
(01:13):
and to never stop learning.
No matter how far along in mycareer I am, I can always learn
something new.
Melissa (01:26):
Hi, my name is Melissa and my biggest takeaway from
Plain Talk I actually have two.
It was so amazing to be able tosit in and listen to Dr Erie
talk about her work, and thenher additional suggestions on
how to move students ininstruction, and then Dr Cable's
emphasis on the importance ofconversation and five critical
(01:49):
turns you can make.
Elise (01:54):
Hi, my name is Elise Lovejoy and I'm calling because
I attended a session by LorraineHammond and she had an
incredible presentation on theurgency and prompting that needs
to happen in our classes andduring my intervention sessions
today, I required the kids torespond more often and at a
(02:19):
faster pace.
It was very successful and Ivery much appreciated listening
to her talk about how allchildren can read, no matter can
learn to read, no matter thezip code that they live in.
Lori (02:34):
We are debriefing the Plain Talk conference today,
sharing what we learned fromspeakers and sessions.
So, melissa, I know this is soexciting because we just got
back from the conference andlearned so much.
Melissa (02:45):
Yeah, from New Orleans, which is one of my favorite
places.
Yeah.
I used to teach there.
I did.
I used to teach there and livethere, obviously.
So, yeah, it was so fun to bein New Orleans, but we learned
so much.
I mean, by the end I was.
My brain was full, for sure,all the way full.
Lori (03:04):
Yeah, I was exhausted from my brain working overtime, but
we are going to recap oursessions today that we learned,
or that we that we were in andlearned so much in.
Melissa (03:14):
Some of them.
We should say that I mean, we'dbe here all day if we did all
of them.
Lori (03:20):
We chose a sampling and we tried to vary our choices.
Melissa (03:26):
But we saw a lot and learned a lot.
So do you want to kick us off,Lori?
Lori (03:30):
I'd love to.
So I saw a session titledBuilding Stronger Readers
Through Spelling with PamCastner, and my favorite thing
that came out of this sessionwas this takeaway when you're
teaching spelling, you'reteaching reading.
Spelling is a window intoreading needs and also, I should
say, reading strengths, sothat's really helpful.
(03:51):
I also appreciated that Pamsent everyone from the session
on the way with a padlet withresources.
I feel like she really getsteachers knowing that everybody
wants to learn after the session.
So you know, when you can spella word, you can read a word,
but the opposite isn't alwaystrue.
And she took us through alittle exercise where we all
thought we were excellentreaders and spellers and then we
(04:13):
realized, oh, we can spell somereally tricky words, like
fuchsia, but we can read them.
And if we are going toimplement a spelling scope and
sequence to align with whatwe're doing, it should be least
complex to most complex and mostfrequent to least frequent.
(04:37):
So that was a great takeawayand something really important,
I think, for teachers to knowand for practitioners in the
classroom.
If you're teaching spelling, tohave that mind and you know,
can of course, connect it towhat you're doing, not random
acts of spelling here and, youknow, keep it connected to
morphology, to your phonicsskills.
(05:01):
She did also provide a routinecalled a simultaneous oral
spelling and SOS routine forteachers and students to help
students focus on the individualsounds in words.
So I'll run through thatquickly and then, melissa, you
can let me know if you have anyquestions.
Sure, so.
Step one the student watchesthe teacher's mouth to see the
(05:22):
way sounds are produced.
So I guess, if you think aboutit during the COVID pandemic,
this is right, like when youthink about all the kids who had
went through there then withthe masks, that would be really
tricky.
Step two students repeat theword to stimulate the
articulators and look in themirror.
Students map sounds to fingersor chips so they might move
(05:45):
chips or hold their fingers upor tap.
Student writes the word, spellsthe word, and then students
says the word back to theteacher.
So a really simple protocolwhere students are getting lots
of reps, repetitions andpractice.
Pam also mentioned that moretheme matrices are helpful tools
(06:09):
as well, so I know that we'rebig fans of those too, melissa.
Melissa (06:15):
So for sure.
Yeah, and it sounds like I mean, what you just went through,
that was simultaneous oralspelling.
Yeah, sos, sos.
But it reminds me of our recentconversation with Matt Burns,
who's talking about connectingthat phonemic awareness with
letters, and it sounds like thathappens very quickly here.
Right, that you let the childhear quickly, but then you are
(06:38):
immediately attaching thoseletters so they're not just
hearing the sounds but they'realso connecting it to the
letters too.
Lori (06:45):
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, so, Melissa, I know wesat in another session together
and I wondered if you wanted tokick us off for that one.
Melissa (06:54):
Yeah, so this is one of our friends of the podcast,
sonia Cavill, who very funnily Iwas walking down the stairs
before her session so it was theday before and someone yells
Melissa, and so excited and Ifelt I didn't recognize her at
first because there's like amillion people at this
conference and so it took me aminute and then I was like, oh
(07:14):
my gosh, sonia Cavill.
I was so excited because welove her.
I forget what episode numbershe is, but yeah, it was so fun
to like meet her in person.
She's, she's wonderful, and soshe has a new book out with
Trisha Zucker called Strive forFive.
Is the rest of it what thetitle of the conference session
was?
The conference session wasStrive for Five Conversations to
(07:35):
Build Language Comprehension inPreschool through First Grade.
I'm guessing that's the titleof the book as well.
Lori (07:41):
The book is Strive for Five Conversations a framework
that gets kids talking toaccelerate their language
comprehension and literacy.
Melissa (07:52):
So actually it's different, but Strive for Five
is Strive for Five.
Sonia Cavill, trisha Zucker,you'll find it.
But it was really great, Ithink.
I think, going into it I knew Iwas like, ok, strive for Five,
you want to have five back andforth turns with someone while
you're having a conversation.
Seems easy enough, but I lovedhow she talked about why right,
(08:15):
that was a big thing, was like,well, why do we care about doing
this?
And I have I have my five yearold, so he was in my head the
whole time and it made so muchsense that like this is how you
can really like build these,like having one conversation on
one topic and building languageand building vocabulary really
(08:35):
makes a lot of sense as ateacher.
And I loved how she talkedabout it as just like a marginal
shift, which I was like, yes,that's so good, because I think
so often we want, you know, wewant that like thing that's
going to change everything andit's going to be this huge, big
new thing and I love that she's.
It's just little, it's just alittle shift in the way you do
(08:56):
things.
It's not like going to totallydisrupt what you're doing in the
classroom, just a little tinyshift in how you are talking to
your students, asking questions,responding to their questions,
so, or responding to theiranswers to questions.
So I just thought that wasexcellent.
I also loved that she brought upthe idea of good job as a
(09:20):
conversation stopper, and I amlike I'm guilty of this to all
the time, so don't feel bad ifyou're doing it, because I do it
all the time with with my son.
You know, it's just like, oh,look at this thing I made mom
and you're like that's great,nice work, and it is just like
that's the end of theconversation.
Right there, you know.
(09:41):
So it's so nice to think aboutthat, like okay, how do you keep
that going right, instead ofjust that good job and stopping
the conversation?
Lori (09:51):
Yeah, and I really connected that as as an to that
as an adult, to and I'll give anexample like if I walked into
Actually I feel like I did this,melissa, I walked into your
house Before you moved and you,you know, I that was the first
time I had been there in a whileand you had done some things
and instead of being like, wow,this is so nice, I think I asked
(10:13):
you some questions about it andI was intentionally doing that.
I had learned the skill andthen I was practicing it.
But if I had been like, wow,this is so nice, you've been
like, yeah, thanks, and theconversation would be over
versus, you know, oh, how didyou think to choose this color
on your wall?
Or why did you select thisartwork?
Or you know, where did you getyour furniture from?
(10:35):
Or what's the vibe you went forin here?
It opens it up and it's thesame for kids, and I was
thinking of that.
Melissa (10:42):
I don't say especially even more for kids.
Right, because I mean, as anadult, you could give me that
just oh, this looks great and Imight add on to it.
Right, because I'm an adult.
But it's unlikely that afour-year-old, five-year-old,
even six-year-old, like ouryoungest learners are going to
like have those conversationtechniques to be able to add on.
Lori (11:03):
Sure, and what I really liked about this too is that it
really does extend, not just forELA but to all content areas
and all areas Really.
I mean.
Even think about art, you know.
I mean, if it's a child'smaking a piece of artwork in art
class, instead of walking byand saying great job, that's
nice, you ask like, how did youthink to draw this, how did you
(11:24):
think to create that?
And really modeling thoseinquisitive, curious questions
and kids want to tell you aboutit.
And you know, I've tried thisat home with Press and I think
only one time in the history ofme asking her all of these
questions, she's she said like Idon't know, I just did.
And outside of that, I prettymuch always get a really great
(11:51):
response back.
That then prompts me to askanother question and and does
forge the conversation forward.
So it's exciting to think aboutmoving the conversations
forward and just strive for fiveand why that is important that
those five interactions overtime become really, really
meaningful for kids' languageand language comprehension, yeah
(12:13):
.
Melissa (12:13):
And just just to like stamp those five.
You know your teacher is thefirst turn, right?
So the asking that open-endedquestion and then the student
response.
However, they respond, right,and it might even be, like you
just said, lori, it might be aresponse like I don't know, I
just did right, but you canstill take that to your.
You know, your next turn couldbe like okay, you know she
(12:35):
called this scaffolding downright, like the, so might need
to scaffold that to.
Like okay, well, did you do itbecause of this reason or did
you do it for this reason?
Right, maybe give them someoptions if they weren't able to
explain themselves, so you givethem another chance to to to
talk about it.
But if they do give a, anactual response, then you
(12:55):
scaffold it up and right, youmight take it to the next level
like, oh, what made you think ofthat?
Or like, how does that connectto something else?
You've done this other paintingyou did the other day, you know,
so you can take it to anotherplace.
And then, you know, let let thestudent respond again.
That's the fourth turn and thenthe wrap up.
I liked that.
I always felt like that lastyou know time the teacher got to
(13:16):
say something was the the placeyou might like be able to like
add in some vocabulary, like, oh, that sounds like this thing
that we've been talking about inclass, and connecting it and
making it just just kind ofputting a stamp on it at the end
of the conversation?
Lori (13:32):
Yeah, and I think if you're curious about this when
Sonya's book and Trisha's bookdoes come out, because I think
it's on, it's an out, onpre-order.
I'm pretty sure it's outalready.
Okay, so we will get thatinformation for you in a moment,
but there are videos that goalong with it and so that is
super helpful if you would liketo see this in action.
(13:53):
It is out.
It's out by tomorrow.
I wasn't sure if it was out orpre-order.
All right, so onto the nextsession.
I saw another friend of thepodcast, doug Fisher, called
Interactive Read-Allowed.
Done right.
He based this on a 2004 pieceand then added onto it which
(14:15):
kind of made it really fun andspecial.
The 2004 piece was calledInteractive Read-Allowed is
their common set ofimplementation practices.
It was by Fisher Fry and LAP,and Doug's original piece called
out seven non-negotiables foran Interactive Read-Allowed that
there's a clear purposeestablished, that there's a text
(14:37):
selection that obviously islike, meaningful and worthy.
That we're previewing andpracticing the Read-Allowed as
teachers, as practitioners.
That students are doing somesort of independent reading and
writing connected to it.
That we are modeling fluentreading and being animated and
(14:59):
having expression.
And that we are discussing thetext and students are discussing
the text I'm sorry the text.
And then in this presentationDoug added three more to update.
So he added print referencing,so giving the students an
opportunity to see the text andreference the text.
That that's an importantfeature.
(15:19):
Again, that word that we justtalked about a whole lot with
Sonia, scaffold is coming up.
So scaffold work, when studentshave a mental model of success
and so they know what they'redoing.
The purpose is clear, the goalof this Read-Allowed is clear
and everybody understands theend goal.
And the third thing isthink-allowed from the teacher.
(15:41):
Doug likes to call themthink-alongs and I thought that
was fun and he also, of course,is like the king of the.
You know gradual release model,gradual release of
responsibility.
So one thing I thought would bereally important to note,
because Doug talked about itquite a bit, is that he said
anywhere in that gradual releasemodel you can start, anywhere
(16:04):
in there.
You don't have to start withthe I do, we do, you do.
It's not linear.
So, as you're doing aRead-Allowed, you might want
students to begin by talkingabout something, to review a
concept.
Well, that's kind of like theyou do right or the we do,
depending on how it looks, andthen you might come back
together Read-Allowed model andthen kind of release some
(16:27):
responsibility and come back.
So it doesn't have to be thislinear process in the gradual
release.
But here's the key Close theloop every day.
It has to close.
You can't leave it open.
It can't be I do, we do or youdo, I do.
We have to do all of thosesteps to bring the gradual
release to a full circle in theinteractive Read-Allowed and
(16:49):
just, I think, generallyspeaking in the bigger picture.
Melissa (16:52):
But for the case of this session in the interactive
Read-Allowed, and I'm assumingthat would kind of be driven by
the text.
If I was planning aRead-Allowed, I know that places
I would want to model would bedriven by the text.
Where is it that I want to showthem something tricky about the
text, or the vocabulary istough, or something that I want
(17:12):
to show them versus?
Where do I think I can just askthem a question here and we can
talk about it.
So did he talk about that?
Is that?
Am I on the right track?
Lori (17:24):
He did, yes, but I also.
I'll kind of share that inanother session.
So I don't know why.
I was really into Read-Allowed,this plain talk, and I saw
Molly Ness, who another friendof the podcast, speak about
Read-Allowed, episode 170.
Episode 170, and Doug was 158.
Oh, we have to give Sonia's oldepisode.
(17:45):
Do you know that number byheart?
No, but I can find it, we'llfind it out.
So in this session with MollyNess, she talked about how we
should pause for eight to 10think-alouds.
Right, modeling ourmetacognitive strategies,
modeling what we're thinking forour students, modeling.
(18:06):
I'm really confused here.
I'm going to pause and stop andreread.
Oh, I noticed this vocabularyword.
That's an interesting word.
I wonder if it's talking aboutthis character.
I wonder what so-and-so meantby that.
So really getting metacognitiveand just kind of saying what
we're thinking about eight to 10times throughout a text or
throughout a read-aloud.
I'm sorry, because I think ifwe're reading a text that is a
(18:28):
little bit longer for our olderstudents we would do it eight to
10 times throughout thatread-aloud and with our younger
students, eight to 10 timesthroughout a text or a
read-aloud.
That makes sense, melissa.
Melissa (18:40):
Yeah, that makes sense, and Sonia Cabell is 116,
episode 116.
Lori (18:45):
Cool, all right, we'll link all these in the show notes
.
Melissa (18:48):
The next session I went to was about fluency, which you
know is one of my favoritetopics, and the speakers were
Marianne Wolff and Melissa Orkin.
Marianne Wolff, who we're bothfamiliar with, read Proust and
the squid and we I know welisten to her on an MPR show and
maybe something else.
Um, and, and I'm just gonna behonest, we're like a little
(19:10):
intimidated by Mary Ann Woof,because she is extremely
intelligent, a very smart lady,not that no one else is, because
they really are no, I know, butI mean, yeah, I mean when, when
proust is in your title of yourbook, you know you're here,
you're a smart, smart lady, so Iwas very pleased that she's
(19:33):
hilarious and she made it veryeasy to understand.
So I was like, oh, thankgoodness, um, because my brain
was like not ready for Superheavy material.
But their session was calledthe future of fluency
instructional strategies thatreflect the reading circuit, um,
and they talked a lot aboutjust the you know amount of
(19:57):
students, the number of studentsthat they see all the time.
They said it's usually around70 of students that have fluency
issues, right, that need moresupport with fluency.
But what they said is whathappens often is like we, we do
the the regular things forfluency, which is aren't.
None of these things were bad.
They weren't saying what you'redoing is bad, you know, but
(20:17):
repeated readings, the you knowcoral reading and echo reading,
all of those, all of thosethings that are really good for
fluency.
But they said we might want todig a little bit deeper too,
right?
So, in addition to those, youmight want to think about that
this fluency issue just doesn'tlike stand on its own right.
So it's not like there are otherthings that affect A student
(20:41):
being able to read fluently andwe need to think about them all
because they all come together,um.
So that here.
Here was one way that Mary AnnWolf was very smart, so they
talked about theirmulti-componential you, yeah
right, multi-componential, um,the the way of of teaching
(21:01):
fluency was ismulti-componential, and that
helps to build the circuit.
And you might be familiar withthe acronym possum p o s s u m.
I know you are lory, I am.
Lori (21:13):
I know you only because Of I read an article about possum,
but I don't know if anybodyelse is familiar with possum
other than the animal right.
Melissa (21:22):
Which is a helpful way to remember it.
But those are the, those arethe different components.
So when we're talking about thedifferent components that might
affect a student's fluency,these are, these are the
different components.
So one is just phonemeawareness, right, so making sure
that students are actuallyhearing the right sounds, right,
so that's a place to start.
Or the graphic awareness thatthey're connecting those sounds
(21:43):
to the letters correctly, um, soyou know, you're like, yes,
this is just phonemic awarenessand phonics instruction, yes,
but some students might still beHaving struggles with that
which is affecting their fluency.
So that's something to thinkabout.
But then the s's are semanticword meaning and syntactic
knowledge, which is, which issentence level meaning, um,
which this was reallyinteresting to me because I
(22:07):
don't think we often connectmeaning and actually I'll throw
in the m here too which ismorphology, which is the
knowledge of the, the meaning ofword parts.
So all of those have to do with, like, the meaning, um, and,
and you know, you kind of thinkof it as well if a student can
decode, they have down thatphonemic awareness and the
orthographic awareness.
(22:28):
What do they need to know themeaning for fluency?
Yes, absolutely they do, andthey gave a really cool example,
um, with two words, one limeand the other word lie in Um and
they said, even though Lime istechnically easier to read in
terms of, like, just L, I, M, e,right, it's pretty
(22:50):
straightforward.
Lion is a little trickier, theway the I and the O make that
lion sound.
But because lion is such forkids, lion is like a more
familiar term.
They they understand what alion is.
Not all kids might have seen alime.
They don't talk about limesthat often maybe.
Maybe some kids do, but a lotof kids don't, right, it's not
(23:11):
something that Um kids see asmuch that they actually can read
the word lion quicker than theycan read Lime, which I just
thought was really interesting.
That, like because they havemore familiarity with it, they
have more of a meaning than theycan actually, they can actually
read it faster.
So their fluency is faster whenthey have more connections to
(23:34):
the meaning of the word, which Ijust thought was really cool.
Lori (23:37):
That is really neat and the you is understanding.
Melissa (23:40):
Thank you very easy, right?
Yeah, so that was.
That was their multi componentsand how just thinking about
fluency as more than just Wordcalling and rereading, and
thinking about all the differentcomponents that go into a
student being a fluent reader.
Lori (23:57):
Cool.
Did I tell you that I turnedaround and saw both Mary Ann
Wolfe and Melissa Orkin atdinner one night?
I know you didn't yeah, and Ialso heard somebody yell
Margaret and I was like that'sgotta be Margaret Goldberg,
there's not other Margaret.
Melissa (24:12):
No other.
Lori (24:12):
Margaret, yes from the right to read project, so I, of
course, ran over.
It's like Margaret, that's youand we.
So I met some former guests,which in person, which is so
nice, and Lonnie from the sameepisode as Margaret.
That was really awesome.
That was a while back.
And then I also met Amir Baraka, who wrote it was dyslexic,
(24:35):
wrote a book about hisexperience Growing up with
dyslexia, and it was just such athat was a night where I just
feel like I was Overwhelmed withmeeting people and my brain was
even more on overload.
Melissa (24:47):
We talked about him With Julie and Sherry and last
summer.
Yeah, I talked about him ontheir episode.
Lori (24:55):
Yeah, we did.
We're gonna have to link allthese episodes in the show notes
.
Okay, so I think one lastsession we want to talk about is
Denise I'd, which we both gotto go to.
We did it was really fun, andthe title is is it time to
rethink the definition ofphonics?
My big takeaway English islogical, so logical.
I loved learning about it.
(25:15):
I was pumped For all of thesecool rules that I didn't learn,
all of these morphology thingsthat I didn't know before.
So good, she's great.
If you don't, if you have notread uncovering the logic of
English, now is the time to pickit up.
Melissa (25:29):
I know, and you did you know, that Corey Jensen
Recommended that to us in hisepisode, which was many Episodes
ago.
Lori (25:37):
I don't remember that.
Melissa (25:38):
I know.
So we took a while to get onboard and we are telling you
that you should not wait as longas we should not wait, because
it is well worth it and itreally is just, I mean so
logical, right, and we, when youhear it, you know to hear
things like yes, you know theyeah.
There is a reason that there'san e on the end sometimes, and
(26:02):
it's not because it changes thevowel sound, right, sometimes
it's what words can't end in V,or you, so they just have an e
on the end For sure, and it justexplains it.
You're like, there you go,there's your explanation for so
many words.
Lori (26:17):
Yeah, so okay, I'll give you an example.
I just thought I followed logicof English on Instagram and
love how they put their therules up and the different
Things we should know.
So C always softens to one,followed by E, I or Y.
Melissa (26:34):
Otherwise C says and that explains circle and circus,
and and cylinder and catabsolutely yeah, and all of the
rules are also on her website,which is so, if you, you know,
not ready to get the book ordive into that, you can go to
(26:55):
logic of English calm and she.
She is not trying to, you know,make money off things.
She's trying to shareInformation.
So she puts all the rules theretoo.
So, you know, you know, don'teven have to buy the book, you
can just go there and see allthe rules, but if you want more,
buy the book for sure.
Yeah, yeah, it's very, very goodread.
Lori (27:15):
Yeah, so we have some new friends of the podcast.
After that conference it was sonice to make new friends and
Just kind of catch up witheveryone.
It was really fun to meet ourlisteners.
A lot of our listeners.
We're like, oh my gosh, you'remore listen, laurie, because we
had our sweatshirts on.
So that was really fun.
Melissa (27:34):
Can we say that we recorded with Denise I and she's
gonna be on soon?
Lori (27:39):
Yeah, she's gonna be on really soon we just so get ready
after yeah, yeah, we can't waitfor you to hear that
conversation.
She always blows my mind, solove it.
Thanks so much for listening.
Thanks, melissa, I'm glad wegot to do this.
Thank you everybody, thanks.
Melissa (27:54):
Laurie.
To stay connected with us, signup for our email list at
literacy podcast calm, join ourFacebook group and follow us on
Instagram and Twitter.
Lori (28:08):
If this episode resonated with you, take a moment to share
with a teacher friend or leaveus a five-star rating and review
on Apple podcasts.
Melissa (28:14):
Just a quick reminder that the views and opinions
expressed by the hosts andguests of the Melissa and Laurie
love literacy podcast Are notnecessarily the opinions of
great minds, pbc or itsemployees.
Lori (28:30):
We appreciate you so much and we're so glad you're here to
learn with us.
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