May 2, 2025 • 51 mins
Episode 224
Helping students become fluent, confident readers isn’t always easy—especially when they’re still sounding out words and struggling with comprehension. That’s why Synchronous Paired Oral Reading Techniques (SPORT) is a game-changer.
In this episode, we’re joined by Jake Downs, assistant professor at Utah State University and host of the Teaching Literacy podcast, to break down:
✅ What SPORT is and why it works
✅ How to implement it tomorrow with minimal prep
✅ The research behind fluency, comprehension, and confidence gains
If you're looking for a practical, evidence-based way to help students become stronger readers, this episode is for you! 🎧
RESOURCES
- "Synchronous Paired Oral Reading Techniques: Supporting Developing Readers in Connected Text" by Jake Downs and Kathleen Mohr
We answer your questions about teaching reading in The Literacy 50-A Q&A Handbook for Teachers: Real-World Answers to Questions About Reading That Keep You Up at Night.
Grab free resources and episode alerts! Sign up for our email list at literacypodcast.com.
Join our community on Facebook, and follow us on Instagram, Facebook, & Twitter.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Melissa (00:01):
helping students become fluent, confident readers
isn't always easy.
It can feel frustrating forstudents if they are still
sounding out words andstruggling to make meaning.
Building fluency in students iscritical and having a structure
for teaching and practicingfluency is even more important
that's where synchronous pairedoral reading techniques or sport
(00:24):
comes in.
Lori (00:26):
In today's episode we're talking with Jake Downs,
assistant professor at UtahState University and host of the
Teaching Literacy podcast.
Personally, it's one of ourfavorite podcasts.
Jake will break down exactlyhow sport works, how you can
start using it tomorrow and whatthe research says about its
impact on fluency, comprehensionand confidence.
(00:47):
Hi teacher friends.
I'm Lori and I'm Melissa.
We are two educators who wantthe best for all kids, and we
know you do too.
Melissa (00:59):
We worked together in Baltimore when the district
adopted a new literacycurriculum.
Lori (01:04):
We realized there was so much more to learn about how to
teach reading and writing.
Melissa (01:09):
Lori, and I can't wait to keep learning with you today
.
Lori (01:16):
Hi, jake, welcome to the podcast.
We're so happy you're here.
Jake Downs (01:19):
Hey, melissa and Lori, Thanks for having me on
the show.
Glad to be here today.
Melissa (01:23):
Yeah, thank you.
We've been on your podcast, nowyou're on our podcast.
We are so excited.
Jake Downs (01:28):
Lots of great stuff to talk about.
Melissa (01:29):
Yeah, and we're talking all about synchronous
paired oral reading, or reallyfun acronym we get to use this
whole time is SPORT.
So for teachers who may not befamiliar with this, can you just
give everyone a quick overviewof this?
Synchronous paired oral reading?
And the T is techniques correct.
Jake Downs (01:49):
Yes T.
Techniques yeah T techniques.
So sport is prettystraightforward it's a pairing
between a higher achievingreader and a lower achieving
reader and this pair willsynchronously, corally read a
text or a series of texts, andit can be the tutor.
The lead reader can be a sameage peer, can be a cross age
(02:10):
peer or can be an adult peer aswell.
So more practically, you knowwhat that means is there can be
lots of different configurationsthat fit that definition.
So this is something that canfit into your core instruction,
your tier one reading time.
It can fit into content areatext.
When you use those.
It can be supplemental readingthat occurs during the day, or
(02:33):
it can also be something a bitmore structured, with some adult
tutoring or intervention thathappens, and I'm sure we can get
to each of those throughout theconversation.
Lori (02:42):
So it sounds really flexible.
It sounds like a flexibletechnique and I'm curious how
you learned about it and whatmade you interested in studying
it.
Jake Downs (02:51):
Yeah, the short version is when I was very first
beginning my doctorate program,I was a fourth grade teacher by
day, a PhD student by night andthere was a study on dyad
reading, one specific type ofsport, that had just been
published and had been done hereat Utah State and my principal
(03:12):
had.
There was a flyer that the stateof Utah, usbe, had kind of done
, a little flyer kind of talkingabout the study and the results
.
And my principal had somehowgotten a hold of that and Shelly
Healy gave that to me and saidhey, I know you're starting a
PhD, I know you're interested inreading research, you might be
interested in this.
And one of the authors on thatstudy was Dr Kit Moore, who just
(03:33):
happened to be over the docprogram and was sort of my
initial advisor.
And so I started talking withher about the study and I was
teaching fourth grade so I wasreally caring about how do I
help my students access gradelevel text, challenging text,
(03:53):
how do I support my students whoneed support?
And it just kind of evolved andblossomed from there.
So I ended up doing we did astudy that was published in 2020
.
And then I ended up doing mydissertation that looked at sort
of a constellation of practicesthat have that paired oral
reading between a higherachieving reader and a lower
achieving reader and that's, youknow, now been published in a
couple different places as well.
There's a much longer version,but that's the brief version.
Melissa (04:17):
Let's just dive in.
People want to know what doesthis actually look like in their
classroom, and you mentioned,you said, dyad reading is like
one example.
So I'm assuming what we'retalking about here is not just
one way to do this right, butthis it's more of an umbrella,
like the synchronized I'm goingto get it wrong again
synchronous paired oral readingtechniques.
(04:39):
There's several of them,correct?
So can you talk to us about,like, what are all those
different techniques and what'swhat's the kind of the common
denominator between them?
Jake Downs (04:49):
Yeah.
So for the nerdy folks, theforum, the four sub practices
that when I went out to theliterature and I tried to see,
okay, what are the practicesthat use parallel reading
between a high achieving readingand a low achieving?
Those four practices wereneurologic impress method, which
was developed in the US in the60s and has been in and out of
the literature.
Studies have been done on andoff for the past 50-ish years.
(05:13):
There's paired reading, whichis the UK version, capital P,
capital R on paired reading.
It's a specific approach.
Then there is dyad reading,which those two ones I just
mentioned in the early days useda lot of adult tutoring.
Newer versions have started tobe more flexible and use peer
tutoring or adult tutoring.
(05:33):
So one version that's justexclusively peer tutors has been
called dyad reading.
And then Dr Chase Young, whoyou've all had on the podcast
I've had on my podcast.
He'd had an innovation in the2010s called Read to Impress,
which was an adult tutor with areader and they would
synchronously read the text butthen it's stacked in repeated
(05:55):
reading and so the student wouldgo back and reread portions of
it.
That broad literature and inreading the past 60 years of
research on this, there'sdifferent times that I think
would be really practical forteachers to use it during the
day and these are all to onedegree or another demonstrated
in the literature.
But it's something that isusable for core reading
(06:16):
instruction time and we can getinto the nuts and bolts of what
that can look like.
But you know also if I'm usingcontent area tech, so I'm using
you know I'm fifth grade my seedstandards.
I'm looking at how energy movesthrough an ecosystem.
If I have a text on that, youknow I can use parallel reading
in my classroom to do that.
It can also be supplementalreading during the day.
(06:37):
You know, sometimes we justwant to stack in more
opportunity for students inconnected text for longer
periods of time to build stamina, to help get them engaged in
text, help them find text theyreally enjoy.
But it can also be used asintervention or an additional
level support of if I have astudent that is really needing
(06:57):
some growth in reading fluency.
So support and accuracy supportand ORF myself as a teacher or
I might have a paraprofessionalor I might have a parent
volunteer that I can train to goand do some of this with a
student.
So those are kind of the timesthat it might work and we can
get into brass tacks, what eachof those look like.
But thinking it's flexible alsois like well, I could use
(07:20):
students within my classroom tobe a lead reader, to be a tutor.
I could use students in thenext grade up, you know, from
the fourth grade teacher downthe hall, the fifth grade
teacher down the hall.
I could pull some of thosestudents we find a common time,
have them be lead readers.
But it could also be adulttutors.
And what I like in some ofChase Young's studies.
Chase Young's studies is youknow he's used the people at the
(07:42):
front office.
He's used the janitor is youknow he's used the people at the
front office.
He's used the janitor.
I mean sort of any, any bodywithin the school that is you
know that can read and that'sviable as a tutor.
You know he's pulled thoseadults in to help support some
of these lowest achievingreaders and being able to
develop in their accuracy, theirfluency and comprehension.
Melissa (08:01):
Just a quick side note at my son's school they do like
a PBIS type thing, you know,where they earn bucks of some
kind and then they turn those into get something and one of the
prizes that is like the mostpopular is the fifth graders and
the fourth graders get to goread to the kindergarten and
first graders and they love it.
(08:23):
I mean, like you know, theyteachers love it because it
doesn't it.
I mean, like you know, teacherslove it because it doesn't cost
any money to do anything.
You know, but it's also likethe kids love reading to the
younger kids.
It's really, really cool.
Jake Downs (08:34):
That's such a great point, right.
That like that is a win, win,win, win.
Like that for kindergarten andfirst grade kids.
Like the fourth and fifth gradestudents are just like the
coolest, like they are at thepeak of what it means to be cool
.
But for whatever reason, likefourth and fifth graders when
they sometimes get a little.
I mean, I've got a fifth graderat home, right, and he's
(08:55):
starting to get a little toocool for some things.
But I guarantee you if histeacher said we're going to read
to kindergartners, he'd be allin.
Cost effective, right, itdoesn't cost any money.
It's a little bit of time.
But we don't even need specialbooks.
Like what books are you alreadyusing?
Like, why reinvent the wheel?
Like, let's just bake with theflour we've got and figure out
(09:16):
effective ways to, you know, todo things with the existing
ingredients we've got.
Melissa (09:21):
Can we talk a little bit about what happens in those?
Because you know, I'm thinkingas a teacher now, like okay, I
have my tutor and my tutee andthey're reading together, but
like are there specific thingsthat should be happening?
Were they the same in all ofthose that you mentioned or were
they different?
Jake Downs (09:37):
Yeah, the basic ingredient here is the lead
reader and the assisted readerare choral, reading the text out
loud at the same time.
Now there are some, you know,some variations with that, but
like, let's say, you know, maybelet's take of kind of the
different configurations, thetimes I've mentioned, let's just
(09:57):
talk supplemental reading,because that's kind of the, I
think, the most simplest to talkabout first.
So let's say, I want to find Ihave my core reading time, I
have intervention time, but Ialso have maybe a 15 or 20
minute slot.
That's like.
You know, sometimes you justget those weird gaps in your
schedule where it's like, oh, Ihave computer lab on Monday and
Wednesday.
Well, what do I do on Tuesdayand Thursday during that time?
(10:20):
So that would be a great timeto say you know what, maybe I
want some supplemental readingtime for my students to be able
to be able to have time in textsthat are engaging, but also be
able to have extended time intext where we're not.
You know, sometimes duringreading instruction, our
instruction starts to sliver upthe text into small chunks,
(10:40):
which we do need.
Like instruction is a goodthing, like we should be
teaching texts and teaching themvery well, but we also, I think
, want to find times tocomplement that with more
extended time in text wherestudents can, you know, work on
things like stamina, be able to,you know, quote, unquote, like
get into a text.
So like a little half hour gapor 20 minute gap a couple of
(11:01):
times in the week would be agreat time for that.
So if I had, if I had, let'ssay I had my class and you know
we were doing something likethat I might divide my class up
into half.
I might divide my class up intothirds, and what it would be is
like if I was, if I just wasdividing my class in half, that
the students that were in thehigher achieving half of the
(11:22):
class they would go and readconnected text with the half of
the class that was lowerachieving.
Now, as far as the text, there'sa lot of, there's flexibility
in what you could choose.
You know it can be 100 percentself-selected text, right that
the students are saying, hey,what book are you reading at
home?
And that can be the text that'sread the pair.
(11:43):
Here they are reading the sametext out loud.
Sometimes students have, atleast in my experience, like
when you go in, especially likeyour students who have the most
room to grow, your students thatare the lowest achieving in the
class.
If you take them to the libraryand you say, hey, go tear it up
, that might be too much choicefor them, right?
(12:05):
That they might not, you know.
So sometimes it's easier forthe teacher to say, okay, hey,
what are you, what genres areyou interested in?
You know, and maybe, like, as ateacher, curate a smaller
selection of texts for studentsto choose from.
But one important considerationhere is right now there's a lot
of conversation around gradelevel text.
Here is right now there's a lotof conversation around grade
(12:27):
level text and there's a lot ofconversation around how do we
scaffold readers up rather thanwater our texts down?
And I think, teacher, and Ithink that's absolutely right,
you know, I mean, every metaphorbreaks down at some point.
But I tend to think of liketext complexity, like strength
training, right, like if I'monly ever lifting the weights
I'm already good at lifting,it's going to be really hard to
get stronger.
(12:48):
But if I'm systematically doingweights that stretch me, I am
going to get stronger over time.
And I think that's an analogythat Shanahan has used a couple
times as well, but it doesn'thave to be.
I don't have to be super duperworried that the text that the
student is reading alignsdirectly with their independent
reading level.
Because they have a scaffold,they have a lead reader that's
(13:10):
going to be synchronouslyreading that text out loud at
the same time.
And so this is where some ofthe dyad reading studies are
interesting, because they'vestudied students that are two,
three or four grade levels abovethe independent reading level
of the assisted reader and theyfound that students actually do
really well with that.
And so if I'd say I'm a thirdgrade teacher, well I probably
(13:32):
have students that are readingat a second grade level.
I might have a few that arereading at a first grade level.
So a grade or two grade levelsabove is grade level text, and
so we can give them theopportunity to select a text
that they're going to enjoy andthen they can read that text
synchronously out loud with alead reader a couple times a
(13:54):
week.
You know 15 to 20 minutes, andthe average effect across all of
those like so that should yield, you know, a medium, a decent
effect over about 60instructional days following 15
to 20 minutes a couple times aweek.
Lori (14:10):
That's so great.
So I think the question that isin everyone's brain right now,
jake, is which students shouldbe the tutees and which students
should be the tutors.
How do you figure that out?
And then, what does the teacherdo while those kiddos are
working together?
Like there's the lead reader,and which I guess I was calling
the, the two, like which I justreferred to as the tutor Right,
(14:31):
and then there's the not thelead reader, which would be like
the quote 2T, but lead readersounds much better, I think,
when we're podcasting and thentrying to say 2T.
That's a hard word to saypodcasting.
Jake Downs (14:49):
So I can, I can type it, but I also have a fifth
grader at home that I just Ican't say 2T in my house anymore
, you know.
So yeah, tutor, lead reader,assistant reader.
Lori (14:52):
There we go.
Okay, we're all on the samepage.
Now Take it away.
Jake Downs (14:57):
So yeah, those terms are synonymous there.
So the question being you knowwho should be tutored and like
what would the selection processlook like?
Well, I think a good rule ofthumb to follow is OK the
students that need support arethe ones that get it, and the
students that need the mostsupport get the most support.
So if it were me this is whereI diverge a little bit from the
(15:21):
literature A lot of the studieshave done just like
comprehension level and usedthat to match students.
I think one of the studies MattBurns had last year showed that
it's probably actually going tobe better to do that by
probably accuracy or the ORFmeasure.
So if it were me, I would takemy OR reading fluency data from
DIBLES 8, from Acadience, fromsomething similar like that, and
(15:44):
I would like in my Google Sheet.
In Excel I click on the firstrow, go to data, make a filter
and then I can sort highest tolowest really easily.
So I would take either myaccuracy column, maybe my ORF
column and sort that fromhighest to lowest and then split
that in the middle.
So if I have 20 kids, thestudent ranked number one with
accuracy would be reading withthe student ranked number 11,
(16:07):
you know, two with 12, you know,so on and so forth.
So then nine, well, I guessactually 10 would then be
reading with 20.
Uh, one question I get asked isuh, you know well what, if, like
, 5 and 15, you know, aren't agood pairing, you know you don't
have to, you don't have to.
This isn't a perfect science,like it's not that the magic
(16:28):
brew is that 5 has to be with 15, and so you absolutely can take
in student considerations aswell, how well the students get
along or don't get along.
You know, the two students thatshould absolutely like not be
working together at any pointduring the day as much as
possible, right, like thosedon't have to be the partners.
So there's the principle hereis a lead reader and assisted
(16:49):
reader, and that the lead readeris more as a higher achievement
level than the assistant.
So there's flexibility there.
Melissa (16:55):
I'm curious if you've ever done it where I'm looking
at like student number one isactually paired with the lowest
student because I just I have,yeah, 20.
I have in my head, like yousaying that that you know, make
sure that the student that needsthe most support gets the most
support and like, well, would itbe more beneficial for them to
be with the highest reader inthe class?
Jake Downs (17:16):
yeah, that's such a great question and this is where
there there aren.
There's not studies in thisarea.
So I'm going to speak to youfrom.
This is just Jake's classroomexperience and observation and
thoughts.
Reader 20 is so big thatsometimes the reader one is
(17:44):
getting frustrated.
You know they are serving as atutor we need to remember that
and so they are providingsupport.
The benefit they're getting isjust the benefit that they would
receive from oral readingconnected text, and so sometimes
I've seen those readersactually get a little bit more
frustrated when there's that bigof a difference.
And so when I think about, okay, the students needing the most
(18:06):
support get the most support,that's where I start to think is
there a parent volunteer?
You know, is there?
Can I beg or borrowparaprofessional time for 15 or
20 minutes?
Melissa (18:15):
Right or Lori asked what does the teacher do during
this time?
Jake Downs (18:18):
Yeah, yeah, or absolutely you know that you
know the teacher during thistime.
Yeah, yeah, or absolutely youknow that, uh, you know the
teacher.
Okay, I can a obviously becirculating and providing
support, but, um, you know Imight be able to.
Then, okay, I'm going to workwith the the lowest, or maybe I
pull like the lowest two orthree and we're doing it as a
group.
Um, I don't think there'sanything that would prohibit
that from being effective, asyou know as well, and you might,
(18:39):
might have just that starstudent at the top of the class
that just is mature for theirage, that can handle doing
something like that, and thatwould be viable.
But what the data show is anadult tutor has a higher effect
than a peer tutor, which makescomplete sense.
But within a classroom context,there's a lot more peer tutors
(19:01):
available than there are adulttutors, and so it's thinking
flexibly of you know who, whoyou know.
If I have adult support, I'mgoing to give that to the
students that need it the mostand then sort of triage from
there.
Lori (19:14):
Jake, is there anything you want to say more about the
benefit to the student who isthe lead reader, who's doing the
tutoring work?
I think that that's a questionthat, like, I'm just thinking as
a like a parent if I was ateacher, listening, I'd be like,
oh, what if this parent comesin and says, like well, my kid's
being a tutor for this otherkid for 40 minutes a week.
(19:36):
Right, Like, let's just pretendthere's two 20 minute sessions.
I would want to be able toarticulate the benefit.
Obviously it's practice reading, right and oral reading.
Are there any specific benefitsthat we can call out?
Jake Downs (19:50):
Yeah, and this is where we're thinking about peer
tutors.
There's most of the studiesmeasure the outcomes of the
assisted reader.
There's only a handful thatmeasure any outcome from the
lead reader And's only a handfulthat measure any outcome from
the lead reader and there's onlyone that actually and those
have, like compared lead readerscompared to everyone else, like
just compared to a generalcontrol group.
(20:10):
There's only one study thatspecifically compared outcomes
of lead readers in that werethat were doing dyad reading in
this case, versus students inthe control group that were also
in the top half of their classachievement-wise, and what that
study found was the benefit wasthey didn't have any added
(20:34):
benefit, but they also didn'tsuffer either that their
outcomes were not lower.
So the benefit they get isthey're reading connected text
for 20 minutes, and so that'swhen you might want to also
think about and I think that's avalid concern.
Like you know, if I'm a parent,I might not want my you know,
my student to be a tutor for 40minutes during the week.
(20:57):
You know, I mean we kind ofhave to think we have to use
that resource wisely inremembering that these lead
readers, they are basicallyserving in a tutoring role.
So that means I need to findother things during the day that
is going to more directlysupport their needs.
But also it can be, you know,maybe, okay, let's say I'm doing
(21:18):
a science text, right, likelet's go back to that, that how
energy moves through anecosystem text.
Maybe I'm not doing the dyadreading with my whole class,
that's a sport with my wholeclass.
Maybe it's just the lowestachieving readers, like the
bottom, you know.
Third, or the students thatreally need access to that text.
And then there's a pool I'vetrained maybe most of my class
(21:39):
how to be lead readers, and thenthere's a pool I've trained
maybe most of my class how to belead readers, and so then, like
that can rotate them.
So it's like, hey, sometimesyour buddy reader is this person
for a week and then we changeand it's this person for a week,
and so then it's not this likeheavy concentrated dose, it's
(22:02):
like a sprinkling of oh hey,here and there when we're
reading text throughout the day.
Some of the students they readthe text with, you know, with
other students in the class, andso then it's not too much of a
burden on those highestachieving readers, and there is
one study that did that in thelate 80s, where they were
basically any supplemental anytime that students were reading
during the day students thatwere not at the grade level
expectation for reading, thatwere still striving readers they
read that text with a leadreader that was at grade level
(22:26):
expectation and they rotatedtutors fairly frequently.
So it wasn't necessarily likehere's our set aside time, it
just was when we're reading text, we're going to pull in a lead
reader to assist you with it,we're going to pull in a lead
reader to assist you with it andwe're going to rotate tutors.
So that way it's never too muchof a time burden, that we're
(22:47):
not sapping too muchinstructional time away from
those readers to support ourlowest readers.
Lori (22:51):
Yeah, well, and I think that's such a good point.
I love the idea of beingflexible with your students
right with their pairing of thestudents.
I also was thinking, jake,while you were talking it, you
mentioned the benefit of theconnected text.
It could be that they're alsoum getting that benefit of the
connected text and um thatpractice with new vocabulary
(23:13):
right, that they have it Like.
I.
I'm just thinking like verypractically, as the teacher, I'd
be pulling out some of like thevery practical things, like if
we're learning about energy,then I'm going to make sure
we're going to have like reallytough vocabulary in there that
could be conquered on this read,because we know that the texts
can be more challenging, likeyou said.
Jake Downs (23:33):
Yeah, and that's like, and this is a time where
either, a, you know, we can use,like, whatever texts we're
already using.
We can use those as a way toeffectively consume the text.
But, you know, b, if we do wantto add supplemental text, or
they can and should be reallyengaging, engaging text, or like
to your point.
Okay, if I'm doing like, if Ido want to pick some really
(23:54):
challenging technical vocabulary, you know, then maybe before we
read the text, I'm going to doa brief multi-syllabic routine.
Let's peel off what prefixes dowe see what suffixes?
Let's underline the vowels.
Okay, let's scoop, blend this.
So here's how I read this wordaccurately.
Here's what this word means.
Now a word like photosynthesis.
Okay, now let's split up, readthe text.
Okay, now we're going to comeback.
(24:16):
After we split up, read thetext using sport, let's come
back and talk about it.
You know, it can really sort ofnaturally weave into other
things that we're going to do tosupport word reading accuracy,
to support vocabulary, tosupport comprehension as well.
Lori (24:29):
Such a good point.
Yeah, I love that.
And then it's not somethingthat's like oh, the separate
tutoring thing that we're doingwe're not.
We're doing sport as part of anintegrated approach to teaching
reading and writing.
Jake Downs (24:40):
Yeah, and that's a really good point that you know
sometimes like to do a goodstudy.
It has to be very, I don't know, isolated isn't the right term,
but you're trying to controlfor a lot of variables and so,
like in a lot of the studiesthat are in this literature,
they've sort of set up thetutoring thing as its own
separate chunk during the day,which it totally can be.
(25:01):
But the principle here, being alead reader, an assisted reader
, you know coral reading textout, you know coral reading text
synchronously, you know like itcan and it should be a
technique, and one among many Idon't want to oversell it among
(25:23):
many that we can embed into ourinstruction to have text be
engaging, to make sure thatwe're helping students access
grade level text moreefficiently.
All right.
Melissa (25:28):
So we've talked a lot about texts, jake, but I've
heard you say things like theseshould be challenging texts at
grade level, maybe even abovegrade level, not at a student's
independent level.
And these connected texts, somaking sure they're, we would
love for them to be connected totopics they're learning about,
reading about.
I'm wondering about in like thecore instruction, core ELA
(25:52):
instruction time.
Could this fit in there as well?
Jake Downs (25:56):
Yeah, absolutely, and you know, I think right now,
along with the conversation ongrade level text, there's a lot
of conversation on core readingprograms.
I know in Utah our sciencereading legislation has required
a lot of schools and districtsto look at their core reading
program and update and adopt newcore reading programs, and I
think, as I talk with otherfolks, that seems to be
(26:17):
something that's happening in alot of states here in the US.
And so part of when I'm doingstuff with my core reading
program is, you know, this canstill be done and integrated
with that.
And this is actually where mythinking started to get a lot
more flexible with this wasthere was a couple studies again
(26:39):
from the late 80s that wereactually done here in Utah, a
little bit further south from meat Brigham Young University.
That helped me started to thinkabout how it could be done
flexibly during.
I mean, they called it basaltime, but we'd probably say, you
know, core reading time or tierone time or you know whatever
that lingo is for when we'retogether reading, doing text
(27:02):
stuff as a class.
So they had an interestingapproach in where and I alluded
to this earlier, but Eldridgeand College actually divided the
class up into thirds.
So rather than half and half,they divided the class into
thirds.
So what you had was the highestachieving group, that top third
.
They would just read the textin partners and then the teacher
(27:25):
would have some like a graphicorganizer, a little bit of
extension work.
Then the middle third and thebottom third.
They did the choral reading ofthe text together.
So it would be OK, we're inmodule four, you know unit one.
Here's our text we're reading.
That's how they would consumethe text and then they would
(27:46):
come back and the teacher woulddo whatever normal, whatever the
instruction was going to bewhile they were reading the text
.
The students would actuallyjust read straight through it
and then come back and theteacher would do the
instructional points afterward.
And I think that sort of solvesthe or mitigates at least a
little bit.
You know sometimes, especiallywhen in the upper grades, like a
fourth or fifth grade, you knowyour highest achieving readers,
(28:08):
in a lot of cases they can fly,you know they, and so sometimes
they get a little bitfrustrated.
Or it's more.
Perhaps it's more adaptive,it's more responsive if highest
achieving are working togetherand then the middle group, that
could still use some benefit.
You know that the extended oralreading practice is going to
(28:28):
have more benefit for them.
They're serving as lead readersfor the lowest third and you
know so it's that's perhaps amore productive way.
So they kind of did triad likesplit it into thirds that way.
But it doesn't have to be.
You know, like whatever normaltext I'm doing during my core
reading program time, you know Ineed to have a lot of tools in
(28:53):
my tool belt.
If there's one of me and 20 ofthem to say how are we going to
read this text, how are we goingto consume this text in a
productive way, and how am Igoing to make sure that my
students who struggle the mostto access grade level text, how
do I involve them in this textin a way that is also
simultaneously promoting theirreading accuracy, their reading
(29:16):
fluency and also their readingcomprehension.
So that's one approach, but youcould also split your class up
into halves as well.
I mean that would work justfine also.
But I think that one example ofsplitting as thirds is an
interesting way to think aboutit.
Melissa (29:33):
Yeah, and this reminds me of I'm going to do a real
throwback, lori, get ready.
Our very first episode sixyears ago was about, you know,
fidelity to a curriculum, andthis is kind of what we talked
about with that like, yeah,there should be some flexibility
because you know that coreprogram might just say, like,
read pages X to Z, right.
And this is the perfect timefor the teacher to bring in this
(30:06):
kind of technique and go, okay,they are going to read those
pages, how they do it.
I'm going to bring thisresearch-based technique in to
support my students the way theyneed it.
Jake Downs (30:18):
Yeah, I'm a curriculum person.
I like curriculum, I thinkcurriculum is productive, I
think curriculum gives a goodframework for teachers.
But I kind of go with theGoldilocks rule here that you
know, looking at especially someof these like really big
publishers that you know justmass producing the curriculum
for millions of students.
(30:38):
You know my classroom here innorthern Utah, or practically
Idaho, the specific readingneeds accuracy, fluency,
comprehension, but also likelinguistic or cultural, like the
type of text that's going to beresponsible for them is going
to vary, different than you knowall of you there on the East
Coast.
So there is room to, I think.
(31:00):
I mean this is where you know.
For me, too hot is that I'm justgoing to do exactly what the
curriculum says and check.
I checked all my boxes becausethen I've removed responsibility
for myself out of the equation.
It's now check.
I did what the curriculum says.
Whatever happens happens.
But too cold for me is likeokay, I'm just going to like
(31:23):
throw out the curriculum and dowhatever I want, because then
that's a lot of time and prepand I'd rather have basic
ingredients and then me decidehow to spend my time on crafting
the instruction, onimplementing the instruction,
rather than just sort ofcreating stuff from scratch.
That's my sort of middle groundof not too hot, not too cold,
(31:44):
but just right, and where ateacher can bring their
knowledge, their expertise,their pedagogical knowledge,
their science of readingknowledge, to be able to make
that curriculum like transformit into something better than
what it is as is.
As written.
Lori (32:00):
Okay, so we didn't prepare you for this question, Jake,
but I'm wondering have youtalked with any kids who have
used the sport routine?
Or is there any the technique,or is there any notes
anecdotally in the research fromthe kids, Like what they said
about it?
What they said about it?
Jake Downs (32:21):
This is great.
I love an impromptu questionlike this.
So let me I can first speak to.
When I was doing this in myclassroom as a doc student,
there was a couple like therewas a couple students that I
talked with parents and parentsbrought the kids to school early
and you know, I said hey ofanyone in my classroom who would
(32:42):
you want to read with twice aweek, and this of course he
picked his best buddy right andthis student needed a lot of
support.
You know, it was just sort ofclassic symptoms or not symptoms
, but classic data set that tome said dyslexia, right, so they
(33:03):
would come and they would readbefore school twice a week, and
I tried to make it like as cozyas possible.
So it's like, oh, you get mysoftest chairs right and you can
be right here next to my deskwhile I'm prepping things.
And occasionally it's likehere's a granola bar, here's a
fruit snack.
I mean it doesn't take a lot,but they had a lot of fun with
(33:24):
it.
But also I mean he didexperience good growth.
So and I have a couple otherkind of smaller experience like
that.
But there are a few studies thatand this again comes more so
from the dyad reading literaturewhich your listeners probably
not care about, the nuances ofthe different literatures here.
But there was one study wherethey just sort of asked
(33:46):
open-ended student responsesabout it.
And then there was anotherstudy where they kind of did a
more structured response withattitudes and the students by
and large the assisted readers,enjoyed it.
Now some of the tutors,especially on the attitude
survey, that one, they did kindof show that they didn't love it
(34:07):
.
But in this study they weredyad reading every day for 20
minutes for 90 days.
So, it's like over half a year,there is definitely potential
for burnout.
From my experience and sort oftriangling with that with the
2018 study that I just have thiscrazy belief that students
(34:27):
actually really enjoy it whenthey're in really good text and
when they can access that textreally well.
And so I'm thinking of one ofmy specifically one of my
readers that she was a strivingreader in fourth grade, so she
was below benchmark on accuracyand or and comprehension.
She was also a multilinguallearner.
Her family had, you know,migrated from Northern Mexico,
(34:51):
so she was.
She'd been in the US forprobably three or four years, so
most of her.
She's probably in kindergarten,I think, when they'd moved here
.
But she was very hesitant toparticipate in class.
I had to structure a lot ofthat to make sure she was
getting lots of oral languageexperience.
But you know she was reading abook on.
It was some sort of horse book.
(35:12):
That's all I remember and Idon't.
Horse is a genre I don't do inbooks or in movies.
They're just too sad.
But she really loved this book.
But you know she was able to andI know this is kind of like a
corny, but there's no way shewould have been able to read
that book independently byherself, but bringing in an
(35:33):
adult tutor to read with hertwice a week for 20 minutes, and
it was just a parent in myclass that I said, hey, I need
some volunteers who willvolunteer.
You know she was able to read abook that she would never be
able to access otherwise.
So I think there's room therefor more like empirical research
on engagement, on sort of theirattitudes, on their experience.
(35:54):
But you know you bundle thattogether that they're reading a
text more challenging thanthey'd be able to read otherwise
.
The text is probably moreinteresting than you know.
If I'm a fourth grade reader butI can only read first grade
text, there's a point whereMagic Treehouse starts to not
really pull my attention anymore, but I'm also okay.
So the syntactic complexity,the range of vocabulary, the I
(36:17):
mean all of that sort of stackstogether to say you know what?
This, this, I think it reallyis a viable, you know, one
practice among many, but a wayto think about how do we get
kids into grade level text, intomore challenging text?
But thinking of morechallenging text as generally
being there's a lot moreinteresting stuff happening in
grade level text than belowgrade levels text.
Lori (36:39):
So are there any challenges to this?
I feel like I want to talk alittle bit about that because I
think that you mentioned someright like the partnership
adjustments you mentioned thatearlier and how to kind of
navigate that but are there anyother challenges that teachers
should consider when they'rethinking about implementing
sport?
Jake Downs (36:56):
Yeah, so we've definitely talked about yeah,
there's, you know, justpartnerships as needed.
Right, there's not a hard andfast rule here.
We have also addressed a littlebit that, the peer burnout on
the lead reader side.
You know that's something towatch for as well, and I think
the way to avoid that is, youknow, one, okay, can I find a
(37:17):
way to rotate tutors or adjusttutors?
So, as a teacher, the easiestthing for me is going to be to
split my class in half.
Everyone's reading, you know,everyone's engaged.
I can sit back and drink a dietCoke, but that might not be
best for, like, my students.
And so maybe thinking aboutsplitting things up into thirds,
(37:38):
maybe thinking about, you know,maybe it's just the lowest
quarter of my students that aregoing to get sort of a lot of
support, which gives me threequarters of my students, or
maybe the top two thirds of mystudents or half my students,
that can sort of rotate in andout of tutors.
I also think it can be a, youknow, maybe it's today I'm using
it as a way to read our corereading text, tomorrow I'm using
(38:02):
it to do our science text onhow energy moves through an
ecosystem, and then Thursday,you know, hey, I've got some
funny giggle poetry.
You know, like Chase Young'sall over giggle poetry, like
here I've curated you know fiveor 10 giggle poetry poems.
We have that weird 20-minutechunk where we're not doing
computer lab.
Let's do that on Thursday.
(38:22):
Like it doesn't have, it canalso like sort of be flexible
with the difference.
So I think always shaking it upis one way to sort of avoid
that burnout, you know.
The other one is just thinking alittle bit about text
complexity, grade level text,challenging text, and when I was
talking about this once with agroup of teachers and I was
(38:45):
talking about how you knowthere's just a small handful of
studies that have done studentsin text two or three or four
grade levels above theirindependent reading level, and
the teacher's like I can't evenget my kids to like read grade
level text.
And now you're saying I have toread above grade level text and
that's a fair point.
(39:05):
But I think the way I'd respondto that is saying well, that's
a nuance of how it was conductedin a research study, you know,
to see how much stretch is toomuch stretch.
You know, is stretch a viableway to promote accuracy and
fluency and so it doesn't haveto be that when you're using it
(39:25):
in your classroom, I mean youcould curate bins.
That's a popular way of okay,here's a bin Purple is this
Lexile to this Lexile, red bin'sthis Lexile to this Lexile, and
you have kids read two or threegrade levels above their
independent reading.
That's one way to do it.
But again, going back to if I'ma fourth grade teacher, I
probably some of my strugglingstudents are striving students.
(39:48):
They're in a second grade level, so two grade levels above
would be grade level tech.
So I don't think text curationis always it's always a rabbit
hole we can go down as a teacherand it's something that I'd
rather streamline the textcuration process, which is going
to free up time for me to thinkabout the implementation, like
teaching that text.
(40:09):
So I would say, you know, juststart with what text are you
already using, because if thoseare grade level text, grade
level is challenging enough inthe era of Common Core.
Let's just start there.
What are texts that are alreadyachieving our content learning
objectives, our ELA objectives?
What are the texts we'realready using?
And start there what are textsthat are already achieving our
content learning objectives, ourELA objectives?
What are the texts we'realready using and start there.
But if we're doing supplementalstuff or other stuff during the
(40:31):
day, we don't have to get superticky tacky about like it has
to be exactly two grade, let'sjust is there a text the
students enjoy?
That's also going to give themchallenge when we're talking
supplemental reading, I think is.
I mean there's going to bevariation, but I think that's
good enough in the ballpark toat least start with for a
classroom teacher.
Pragmatically.
Melissa (40:52):
Jake, I'm also thinking one of the challenges
that could definitely happenwould be more of like a
management situation, and I'mwondering if you have any tips
for training or you know how doyou get students ready to do
this before they do?
Especially, I'm thinking ofthose lead readers like how do
they know what their role is?
Jake Downs (41:12):
That's such a great question and I'm glad you asked
that because that is a part ofthis that I haven't addressed
yet.
So, however, I'm doing it.
So let's say that I've gotthree parent volunteers that are
coming in twice a week.
I need to train thosevolunteers.
It doesn't take long.
This isn't rocket science, butit is.
There is a structured protocolhere, right, you are corally
(41:40):
reading the text with thestudent out loud for 15 to 20
minutes and maybe coaching themto say, hey, if it's an adult,
this generally I think works alittle bit better with adult
tutors.
But twice during that sessionyou're going to pause and let
the students reread a chunk ofthat text.
It can be a paragraph and thenover time maybe build up to a
half page or a whole page, andso it's adding in some repeated
reading.
So the student is reading partof that text independently.
(42:01):
It's kind of alternatingbetween choral reading but then
also an independent read, butit's stuff that's already been
read out loud and you just modelthat for them.
So it can be it really can bejust take one session and,
instead of doing the thing youknow, just train your adult
tutors how to do it, just modelhow to do it and like when I
would do it, I'd just get out atext with one of the parents and
(42:23):
I would just show exactly whatit looks like and that's
generally enough to make it work.
And you could also I meanthere's lots like multi-syllabic
vocabulary, I mean that easilycan stack in other
evidence-based things as wellfor what a volunteer would be
capable of doing.
Now, when I'm with my students,you know, I just keep it like
(42:47):
very like I do train them right.
So I would, whoever are goingto be my lead readers, you know,
I would say, hey well,sometimes in class we're going
to do, we're going to do sport,where I have whatever you know
or whatever kind of fancynickname I want to call it, and
I just would explain them reallyplainly how to do it.
And I'm probably not gettingyou know, and I just would
explain them really plainly howto do it and I'm probably not
getting into like, oh well,you're the higher achieving
group, I'm just going to.
I just keep like this is whatwe're doing and this is going to
(43:09):
be great for everyone, and Ijust kind of frame it as that.
And again, I would have likejust a quarter sheet that says
you know, eyes on text readingout loud.
At the same time it just sortof has my classroom protocol,
and then I would model it with astudent and then I'd have them
just pair up for like twominutes to practice it, and then
(43:30):
they would keep that sort oflike that laminated square cut
out that they can keep, and thenthey just do that whenever
they're being lead reader.
And then I'd also, hey, talkwith the assisted readers, or I
talk with the group as a wholeand just say, hey, we're going
to do this.
Sometimes it's just reallyimportant because it's going to
help.
Reading text can be hard, and sothis is a way that we can all
(43:51):
be engaged and able tounderstand and access the text
that we're reading, and thenjust kind of go over the simple
protocol so it doesn't take alot but it does.
That is an agreement that hasto be there and then so, like
most things right, like a clearprotocol, a clear structure, you
know, model it to sort of getit going, and then that is a
thread you have to pull.
So every couple of weeks it'slike, hey, hey, just a reminder,
(44:11):
here's what I'm seeing.
You know all the classroommanagement stuff, but hey, you
know, just a reminder, this iswhat it looks like, this is what
it should sound like, and, youknow, just to keep the
expectation there.
So so, just so that time can beused really productively.
Right, we want everyinstructional minute to be
maximized in its potential.
Melissa (44:29):
Yeah.
So, speaking of that potential,I think you've mentioned a few
times about the benefits.
But I'm curious let's get likea little bit nerdy here with the
research.
Like you looked at all theresearch on this technique like
what give, give some teacherslike the why, why they should do
(44:51):
this, what, what have you seenin the research that would?
Jake Downs (44:52):
would make me want to do this in my classroom.
So our conversation stemmingfrom my dissertation research.
So I I looked at every studythat's had that exact protocol
higher achieving reader, lowerachieving reader, synchronously
reading connected text and Ipulled studies, all I mean, I
did a comprehensive review.
So it was all the way back tothe 60s.
(45:13):
Long story short.
So what I found across that isthere's medium to large effects
in fluency and comprehension andthat's with that average dose
of, you know, 15 to 20 minutes,probably three to four times a
week.
That should be enough to yieldthose medium to large effects
over the course of 12 weeks.
Now they were both above.
(45:35):
You know, if you follow likeHattie's cutoffs for effect
sizes, they were both above 0.4.
If you follow like Cohen'scutoffs for effect size, they
were medium to large.
But what was interesting to mewas that the comprehension
effects were actually largerthan the fluency effects, which
struck me as interesting becausechoral reading text together,
(45:58):
that's more of a fluency printexposure reading volume.
There's not a lot of teachingcomprehension things happening
there.
So that is an interest andthere's a couple of reasons why
that might be the case.
Well, it could be the case thatstudents are accessing text
that they wouldn't be able tootherwise.
So they're being introduced tomore sophisticated vocabulary,
(46:20):
sophisticated language knowledgestructures et cetera.
That is benefiting theircomprehension, like that's
wonderful.
But it could also be and Idon't want to get too nerdy here
but a lot of the effects on thefluency side were especially
the older studies were accuracypercentage in connected text.
Well, accuracy has a ceiling of100.
So if a student started a studywith 96%, they only have 4% to
(46:43):
grow, which makes it hard tolike.
You can't have a super largeeffect when you only have four
to go.
So but there is researchindicating that it does support
the fluency as well, and that'sprimarily how it's talked about
in the literature iscomprehension and fluency.
I think there is also this likeprint exposure.
I think there is also this likeprint exposure, reading stamina
(47:04):
, flair to it, and I brieflyaddressed this earlier.
But we're always like I believein teaching, I believe in
instruction, so we should beteaching our readers.
But a lot of times I notice intier one instruction, the actual
reading students do sort of getslivered and diced up among the
(47:25):
instructional things that arehappening and we part of.
I think developing really strongliterate readers means that we
want to have readers that are,that can persevere through text,
that can read text for longerthan a minute.
You know, we've all had theexperience where reading with a
student and like especially likeI think of, like when I was
progress monitoring a student onan ORF passage and they like
(47:47):
start out so strong for like thefirst 10 seconds and even by
like the 60 second mark, likethey've just like wilted right,
like.
So we do want to build up theirautomaticity so that they can
process text with low cognitivebandwidth, because, well, one,
that's going to free up morebandwidth for comprehension, but
two, like we want to be able tohelp them sustain being able to
(48:07):
read text for an extendedperiod of time, for 15, 20
minutes.
So I think there is this anaspect there that if we're just
reading text for 20 straightminutes in a structured way, I
think there's benefits therethat that's hard to quantify.
But, especially when I think ofstriving readers, that's
(48:28):
something they're probably notgetting at other chunks during
the day and I think that's areally good.
That's something really goodthat we can scaffold for them as
well.
Lori (48:39):
Jake, this is awesome.
Is there anything else?
Is there anything we've missed?
Anything you want to leave ourlisteners with before we sign
off today about sport?
Jake Downs (48:49):
I can share with you all.
If folks want to like go andget into like the stuff I've
written on it, I can leave youall at like a link to Google
Drive folder or something whereI have a link tree link that
folks can go in and read more.
You know, read more about it.
But you know I would justemphasize that this isn't a
silver bullet, right.
This is one approach among many.
(49:11):
You know this is one tool in avery big tool belt, but I think
it is a viable way to help, say,any text I want to consume
during, any text we were readingduring the day.
I want to be able to consumethat productively Because if I
consume it productively, if Iread it in a fluent way, then
that means there's more stuffthere to comprehend, because the
student collected more thingsin the text along the way.
(49:34):
You know if that makes sense.
And so, whether it's thismethod or other methods, that
the text we consume is soimportant that there's no like
the text we use should matter.
They should be texts that arecontent area, informational
texts, like no junk texts.
And we're always thinking howdo we use these texts wisely,
(49:55):
especially for striving readersthat are still working to reach
grade level accuracy, fluency,comprehension expectations.
I think that would be my like.
Final word on how this fitsinto broader instructional
things.
Melissa (50:08):
No junk texts.
I think we should make at-shirt, yeah let's do it.
Jake Downs (50:12):
Let's do t-shirt, coffee mugs, we'll do it, all
Stickers.
Lori (50:16):
Well, thank you so much.
This is great.
I know I can't wait to try this.
So thank you so much for allyour good work and for talking
about it with us.
Jake Downs (50:26):
Pleasure to be here.
Melissa (50:27):
Thanks for the work that you all do To stay
connected with us.
Sign up for our email list atliteracypodcastcom, Join our
Facebook group and follow us onInstagram and Twitter.
Lori (50:40):
If this episode resonated with you, take a moment to share
with a teacher friend or leaveus a five-star rating and review
on Apple Podcasts.
Melissa (50:50):
Just a quick reminder that the views and opinions
expressed by the hosts andguests of the Melissa and Lori
Love Literacy Podcast are notnecessarily the opinions of
Great Minds PBC or its employees.
Lori (51:01):
We appreciate you so much and we're so glad you're here to
learn with us.
helping students become fluent, confident readers
isn't always easy.
It can feel frustrating forstudents if they are still
sounding out words andstruggling to make meaning.
Building fluency in students iscritical and having a structure
for teaching and practicingfluency is even more important
that's where synchronous pairedoral reading techniques or sport
(00:24):
comes in.
Lori (00:26):
In today's episode we're talking with Jake Downs,
assistant professor at UtahState University and host of the
Teaching Literacy podcast.
Personally, it's one of ourfavorite podcasts.
Jake will break down exactlyhow sport works, how you can
start using it tomorrow and whatthe research says about its
impact on fluency, comprehensionand confidence.
(00:47):
Hi teacher friends.
I'm Lori and I'm Melissa.
We are two educators who wantthe best for all kids, and we
know you do too.
Melissa (00:59):
We worked together in Baltimore when the district
adopted a new literacycurriculum.
Lori (01:04):
We realized there was so much more to learn about how to
teach reading and writing.
Melissa (01:09):
Lori, and I can't wait to keep learning with you today
.
Lori (01:16):
Hi, jake, welcome to the podcast.
We're so happy you're here.
Jake Downs (01:19):
Hey, melissa and Lori, Thanks for having me on
the show.
Glad to be here today.
Melissa (01:23):
Yeah, thank you.
We've been on your podcast, nowyou're on our podcast.
We are so excited.
Jake Downs (01:28):
Lots of great stuff to talk about.
Melissa (01:29):
Yeah, and we're talking all about synchronous
paired oral reading, or reallyfun acronym we get to use this
whole time is SPORT.
So for teachers who may not befamiliar with this, can you just
give everyone a quick overviewof this?
Synchronous paired oral reading?
And the T is techniques correct.
Jake Downs (01:49):
Yes T.
Techniques yeah T techniques.
So sport is prettystraightforward it's a pairing
between a higher achievingreader and a lower achieving
reader and this pair willsynchronously, corally read a
text or a series of texts, andit can be the tutor.
The lead reader can be a sameage peer, can be a cross age
(02:10):
peer or can be an adult peer aswell.
So more practically, you knowwhat that means is there can be
lots of different configurationsthat fit that definition.
So this is something that canfit into your core instruction,
your tier one reading time.
It can fit into content areatext.
When you use those.
It can be supplemental readingthat occurs during the day, or
(02:33):
it can also be something a bitmore structured, with some adult
tutoring or intervention thathappens, and I'm sure we can get
to each of those throughout theconversation.
Lori (02:42):
So it sounds really flexible.
It sounds like a flexibletechnique and I'm curious how
you learned about it and whatmade you interested in studying
it.
Jake Downs (02:51):
Yeah, the short version is when I was very first
beginning my doctorate program,I was a fourth grade teacher by
day, a PhD student by night andthere was a study on dyad
reading, one specific type ofsport, that had just been
published and had been done hereat Utah State and my principal
(03:12):
had.
There was a flyer that the stateof Utah, usbe, had kind of done
, a little flyer kind of talkingabout the study and the results
.
And my principal had somehowgotten a hold of that and Shelly
Healy gave that to me and saidhey, I know you're starting a
PhD, I know you're interested inreading research, you might be
interested in this.
And one of the authors on thatstudy was Dr Kit Moore, who just
(03:33):
happened to be over the docprogram and was sort of my
initial advisor.
And so I started talking withher about the study and I was
teaching fourth grade so I wasreally caring about how do I
help my students access gradelevel text, challenging text,
(03:53):
how do I support my students whoneed support?
And it just kind of evolved andblossomed from there.
So I ended up doing we did astudy that was published in 2020
.
And then I ended up doing mydissertation that looked at sort
of a constellation of practicesthat have that paired oral
reading between a higherachieving reader and a lower
achieving reader and that's, youknow, now been published in a
couple different places as well.
There's a much longer version,but that's the brief version.
Melissa (04:17):
Let's just dive in.
People want to know what doesthis actually look like in their
classroom, and you mentioned,you said, dyad reading is like
one example.
So I'm assuming what we'retalking about here is not just
one way to do this right, butthis it's more of an umbrella,
like the synchronized I'm goingto get it wrong again
synchronous paired oral readingtechniques.
(04:39):
There's several of them,correct?
So can you talk to us about,like, what are all those
different techniques and what'swhat's the kind of the common
denominator between them?
Jake Downs (04:49):
Yeah.
So for the nerdy folks, theforum, the four sub practices
that when I went out to theliterature and I tried to see,
okay, what are the practicesthat use parallel reading
between a high achieving readingand a low achieving?
Those four practices wereneurologic impress method, which
was developed in the US in the60s and has been in and out of
the literature.
Studies have been done on andoff for the past 50-ish years.
(05:13):
There's paired reading, whichis the UK version, capital P,
capital R on paired reading.
It's a specific approach.
Then there is dyad reading,which those two ones I just
mentioned in the early days useda lot of adult tutoring.
Newer versions have started tobe more flexible and use peer
tutoring or adult tutoring.
(05:33):
So one version that's justexclusively peer tutors has been
called dyad reading.
And then Dr Chase Young, whoyou've all had on the podcast
I've had on my podcast.
He'd had an innovation in the2010s called Read to Impress,
which was an adult tutor with areader and they would
synchronously read the text butthen it's stacked in repeated
(05:55):
reading and so the student wouldgo back and reread portions of
it.
That broad literature and inreading the past 60 years of
research on this, there'sdifferent times that I think
would be really practical forteachers to use it during the
day and these are all to onedegree or another demonstrated
in the literature.
But it's something that isusable for core reading
(06:16):
instruction time and we can getinto the nuts and bolts of what
that can look like.
But you know also if I'm usingcontent area tech, so I'm using
you know I'm fifth grade my seedstandards.
I'm looking at how energy movesthrough an ecosystem.
If I have a text on that, youknow I can use parallel reading
in my classroom to do that.
It can also be supplementalreading during the day.
(06:37):
You know, sometimes we justwant to stack in more
opportunity for students inconnected text for longer
periods of time to build stamina, to help get them engaged in
text, help them find text theyreally enjoy.
But it can also be used asintervention or an additional
level support of if I have astudent that is really needing
(06:57):
some growth in reading fluency.
So support and accuracy supportand ORF myself as a teacher or
I might have a paraprofessionalor I might have a parent
volunteer that I can train to goand do some of this with a
student.
So those are kind of the timesthat it might work and we can
get into brass tacks, what eachof those look like.
But thinking it's flexible alsois like well, I could use
(07:20):
students within my classroom tobe a lead reader, to be a tutor.
I could use students in thenext grade up, you know, from
the fourth grade teacher downthe hall, the fifth grade
teacher down the hall.
I could pull some of thosestudents we find a common time,
have them be lead readers.
But it could also be adulttutors.
And what I like in some ofChase Young's studies.
Chase Young's studies is youknow he's used the people at the
(07:42):
front office.
He's used the janitor is youknow he's used the people at the
front office.
He's used the janitor.
I mean sort of any, any bodywithin the school that is you
know that can read and that'sviable as a tutor.
You know he's pulled thoseadults in to help support some
of these lowest achievingreaders and being able to
develop in their accuracy, theirfluency and comprehension.
Melissa (08:01):
Just a quick side note at my son's school they do like
a PBIS type thing, you know,where they earn bucks of some
kind and then they turn those into get something and one of the
prizes that is like the mostpopular is the fifth graders and
the fourth graders get to goread to the kindergarten and
first graders and they love it.
(08:23):
I mean, like you know, theyteachers love it because it
doesn't it.
I mean, like you know, teacherslove it because it doesn't cost
any money to do anything.
You know, but it's also likethe kids love reading to the
younger kids.
It's really, really cool.
Jake Downs (08:34):
That's such a great point, right.
That like that is a win, win,win, win.
Like that for kindergarten andfirst grade kids.
Like the fourth and fifth gradestudents are just like the
coolest, like they are at thepeak of what it means to be cool
.
But for whatever reason, likefourth and fifth graders when
they sometimes get a little.
I mean, I've got a fifth graderat home, right, and he's
(08:55):
starting to get a little toocool for some things.
But I guarantee you if histeacher said we're going to read
to kindergartners, he'd be allin.
Cost effective, right, itdoesn't cost any money.
It's a little bit of time.
But we don't even need specialbooks.
Like what books are you alreadyusing?
Like, why reinvent the wheel?
Like, let's just bake with theflour we've got and figure out
(09:16):
effective ways to, you know, todo things with the existing
ingredients we've got.
Melissa (09:21):
Can we talk a little bit about what happens in those?
Because you know, I'm thinkingas a teacher now, like okay, I
have my tutor and my tutee andthey're reading together, but
like are there specific thingsthat should be happening?
Were they the same in all ofthose that you mentioned or were
they different?
Jake Downs (09:37):
Yeah, the basic ingredient here is the lead
reader and the assisted readerare choral, reading the text out
loud at the same time.
Now there are some, you know,some variations with that, but
like, let's say, you know, maybelet's take of kind of the
different configurations, thetimes I've mentioned, let's just
(09:57):
talk supplemental reading,because that's kind of the, I
think, the most simplest to talkabout first.
So let's say, I want to find Ihave my core reading time, I
have intervention time, but Ialso have maybe a 15 or 20
minute slot.
That's like.
You know, sometimes you justget those weird gaps in your
schedule where it's like, oh, Ihave computer lab on Monday and
Wednesday.
Well, what do I do on Tuesdayand Thursday during that time?
(10:20):
So that would be a great timeto say you know what, maybe I
want some supplemental readingtime for my students to be able
to be able to have time in textsthat are engaging, but also be
able to have extended time intext where we're not.
You know, sometimes duringreading instruction, our
instruction starts to sliver upthe text into small chunks,
(10:40):
which we do need.
Like instruction is a goodthing, like we should be
teaching texts and teaching themvery well, but we also, I think
, want to find times tocomplement that with more
extended time in text wherestudents can, you know, work on
things like stamina, be able to,you know, quote, unquote, like
get into a text.
So like a little half hour gapor 20 minute gap a couple of
(11:01):
times in the week would be agreat time for that.
So if I had, if I had, let'ssay I had my class and you know
we were doing something likethat I might divide my class up
into half.
I might divide my class up intothirds, and what it would be is
like if I was, if I just wasdividing my class in half, that
the students that were in thehigher achieving half of the
(11:22):
class they would go and readconnected text with the half of
the class that was lowerachieving.
Now, as far as the text, there'sa lot of, there's flexibility
in what you could choose.
You know it can be 100 percentself-selected text, right that
the students are saying, hey,what book are you reading at
home?
And that can be the text that'sread the pair.
(11:43):
Here they are reading the sametext out loud.
Sometimes students have, atleast in my experience, like
when you go in, especially likeyour students who have the most
room to grow, your students thatare the lowest achieving in the
class.
If you take them to the libraryand you say, hey, go tear it up
, that might be too much choicefor them, right?
(12:05):
That they might not, you know.
So sometimes it's easier forthe teacher to say, okay, hey,
what are you, what genres areyou interested in?
You know, and maybe, like, as ateacher, curate a smaller
selection of texts for studentsto choose from.
But one important considerationhere is right now there's a lot
of conversation around gradelevel text.
Here is right now there's a lotof conversation around grade
(12:27):
level text and there's a lot ofconversation around how do we
scaffold readers up rather thanwater our texts down?
And I think, teacher, and Ithink that's absolutely right,
you know, I mean, every metaphorbreaks down at some point.
But I tend to think of liketext complexity, like strength
training, right, like if I'monly ever lifting the weights
I'm already good at lifting,it's going to be really hard to
get stronger.
(12:48):
But if I'm systematically doingweights that stretch me, I am
going to get stronger over time.
And I think that's an analogythat Shanahan has used a couple
times as well, but it doesn'thave to be.
I don't have to be super duperworried that the text that the
student is reading alignsdirectly with their independent
reading level.
Because they have a scaffold,they have a lead reader that's
(13:10):
going to be synchronouslyreading that text out loud at
the same time.
And so this is where some ofthe dyad reading studies are
interesting, because they'vestudied students that are two,
three or four grade levels abovethe independent reading level
of the assisted reader and theyfound that students actually do
really well with that.
And so if I'd say I'm a thirdgrade teacher, well I probably
(13:32):
have students that are readingat a second grade level.
I might have a few that arereading at a first grade level.
So a grade or two grade levelsabove is grade level text, and
so we can give them theopportunity to select a text
that they're going to enjoy andthen they can read that text
synchronously out loud with alead reader a couple times a
(13:54):
week.
You know 15 to 20 minutes, andthe average effect across all of
those like so that should yield, you know, a medium, a decent
effect over about 60instructional days following 15
to 20 minutes a couple times aweek.
Lori (14:10):
That's so great.
So I think the question that isin everyone's brain right now,
jake, is which students shouldbe the tutees and which students
should be the tutors.
How do you figure that out?
And then, what does the teacherdo while those kiddos are
working together?
Like there's the lead reader,and which I guess I was calling
the, the two, like which I justreferred to as the tutor Right,
(14:31):
and then there's the not thelead reader, which would be like
the quote 2T, but lead readersounds much better, I think,
when we're podcasting and thentrying to say 2T.
That's a hard word to saypodcasting.
Jake Downs (14:49):
So I can, I can type it, but I also have a fifth
grader at home that I just Ican't say 2T in my house anymore
, you know.
So yeah, tutor, lead reader,assistant reader.
Lori (14:52):
There we go.
Okay, we're all on the samepage.
Now Take it away.
Jake Downs (14:57):
So yeah, those terms are synonymous there.
So the question being you knowwho should be tutored and like
what would the selection processlook like?
Well, I think a good rule ofthumb to follow is OK the
students that need support arethe ones that get it, and the
students that need the mostsupport get the most support.
So if it were me this is whereI diverge a little bit from the
(15:21):
literature A lot of the studieshave done just like
comprehension level and usedthat to match students.
I think one of the studies MattBurns had last year showed that
it's probably actually going tobe better to do that by
probably accuracy or the ORFmeasure.
So if it were me, I would takemy OR reading fluency data from
DIBLES 8, from Acadience, fromsomething similar like that, and
(15:44):
I would like in my Google Sheet.
In Excel I click on the firstrow, go to data, make a filter
and then I can sort highest tolowest really easily.
So I would take either myaccuracy column, maybe my ORF
column and sort that fromhighest to lowest and then split
that in the middle.
So if I have 20 kids, thestudent ranked number one with
accuracy would be reading withthe student ranked number 11,
(16:07):
you know, two with 12, you know,so on and so forth.
So then nine, well, I guessactually 10 would then be
reading with 20.
Uh, one question I get asked isuh, you know well what, if, like
, 5 and 15, you know, aren't agood pairing, you know you don't
have to, you don't have to.
This isn't a perfect science,like it's not that the magic
(16:28):
brew is that 5 has to be with 15, and so you absolutely can take
in student considerations aswell, how well the students get
along or don't get along.
You know, the two students thatshould absolutely like not be
working together at any pointduring the day as much as
possible, right, like thosedon't have to be the partners.
So there's the principle hereis a lead reader and assisted
(16:49):
reader, and that the lead readeris more as a higher achievement
level than the assistant.
So there's flexibility there.
Melissa (16:55):
I'm curious if you've ever done it where I'm looking
at like student number one isactually paired with the lowest
student because I just I have,yeah, 20.
I have in my head, like yousaying that that you know, make
sure that the student that needsthe most support gets the most
support and like, well, would itbe more beneficial for them to
be with the highest reader inthe class?
Jake Downs (17:16):
yeah, that's such a great question and this is where
there there aren.
There's not studies in thisarea.
So I'm going to speak to youfrom.
This is just Jake's classroomexperience and observation and
thoughts.
Reader 20 is so big thatsometimes the reader one is
(17:44):
getting frustrated.
You know they are serving as atutor we need to remember that
and so they are providingsupport.
The benefit they're getting isjust the benefit that they would
receive from oral readingconnected text, and so sometimes
I've seen those readersactually get a little bit more
frustrated when there's that bigof a difference.
And so when I think about, okay, the students needing the most
(18:06):
support get the most support,that's where I start to think is
there a parent volunteer?
You know, is there?
Can I beg or borrowparaprofessional time for 15 or
20 minutes?
Melissa (18:15):
Right or Lori asked what does the teacher do during
this time?
Jake Downs (18:18):
Yeah, yeah, or absolutely you know that you
know the teacher during thistime.
Yeah, yeah, or absolutely youknow that, uh, you know the
teacher.
Okay, I can a obviously becirculating and providing
support, but, um, you know Imight be able to.
Then, okay, I'm going to workwith the the lowest, or maybe I
pull like the lowest two orthree and we're doing it as a
group.
Um, I don't think there'sanything that would prohibit
that from being effective, asyou know as well, and you might,
(18:39):
might have just that starstudent at the top of the class
that just is mature for theirage, that can handle doing
something like that, and thatwould be viable.
But what the data show is anadult tutor has a higher effect
than a peer tutor, which makescomplete sense.
But within a classroom context,there's a lot more peer tutors
(19:01):
available than there are adulttutors, and so it's thinking
flexibly of you know who, whoyou know.
If I have adult support, I'mgoing to give that to the
students that need it the mostand then sort of triage from
there.
Lori (19:14):
Jake, is there anything you want to say more about the
benefit to the student who isthe lead reader, who's doing the
tutoring work?
I think that that's a questionthat, like, I'm just thinking as
a like a parent if I was ateacher, listening, I'd be like,
oh, what if this parent comesin and says, like well, my kid's
being a tutor for this otherkid for 40 minutes a week.
(19:36):
Right, Like, let's just pretendthere's two 20 minute sessions.
I would want to be able toarticulate the benefit.
Obviously it's practice reading, right and oral reading.
Are there any specific benefitsthat we can call out?
Jake Downs (19:50):
Yeah, and this is where we're thinking about peer
tutors.
There's most of the studiesmeasure the outcomes of the
assisted reader.
There's only a handful thatmeasure any outcome from the
lead reader And's only a handfulthat measure any outcome from
the lead reader and there's onlyone that actually and those
have, like compared lead readerscompared to everyone else, like
just compared to a generalcontrol group.
(20:10):
There's only one study thatspecifically compared outcomes
of lead readers in that werethat were doing dyad reading in
this case, versus students inthe control group that were also
in the top half of their classachievement-wise, and what that
study found was the benefit wasthey didn't have any added
(20:34):
benefit, but they also didn'tsuffer either that their
outcomes were not lower.
So the benefit they get isthey're reading connected text
for 20 minutes, and so that'swhen you might want to also
think about and I think that's avalid concern.
Like you know, if I'm a parent,I might not want my you know,
my student to be a tutor for 40minutes during the week.
(20:57):
You know, I mean we kind ofhave to think we have to use
that resource wisely inremembering that these lead
readers, they are basicallyserving in a tutoring role.
So that means I need to findother things during the day that
is going to more directlysupport their needs.
But also it can be, you know,maybe, okay, let's say I'm doing
(21:18):
a science text, right, likelet's go back to that, that how
energy moves through anecosystem text.
Maybe I'm not doing the dyadreading with my whole class,
that's a sport with my wholeclass.
Maybe it's just the lowestachieving readers, like the
bottom, you know.
Third, or the students thatreally need access to that text.
And then there's a pool I'vetrained maybe most of my class
(21:39):
how to be lead readers, and thenthere's a pool I've trained
maybe most of my class how to belead readers, and so then, like
that can rotate them.
So it's like, hey, sometimesyour buddy reader is this person
for a week and then we changeand it's this person for a week,
and so then it's not this likeheavy concentrated dose, it's
(22:02):
like a sprinkling of oh hey,here and there when we're
reading text throughout the day.
Some of the students they readthe text with, you know, with
other students in the class, andso then it's not too much of a
burden on those highestachieving readers, and there is
one study that did that in thelate 80s, where they were
basically any supplemental anytime that students were reading
during the day students thatwere not at the grade level
expectation for reading, thatwere still striving readers they
read that text with a leadreader that was at grade level
(22:26):
expectation and they rotatedtutors fairly frequently.
So it wasn't necessarily likehere's our set aside time, it
just was when we're reading text, we're going to pull in a lead
reader to assist you with it,we're going to pull in a lead
reader to assist you with it andwe're going to rotate tutors.
So that way it's never too muchof a time burden, that we're
(22:47):
not sapping too muchinstructional time away from
those readers to support ourlowest readers.
Lori (22:51):
Yeah, well, and I think that's such a good point.
I love the idea of beingflexible with your students
right with their pairing of thestudents.
I also was thinking, jake,while you were talking it, you
mentioned the benefit of theconnected text.
It could be that they're alsoum getting that benefit of the
connected text and um thatpractice with new vocabulary
(23:13):
right, that they have it Like.
I.
I'm just thinking like verypractically, as the teacher, I'd
be pulling out some of like thevery practical things, like if
we're learning about energy,then I'm going to make sure
we're going to have like reallytough vocabulary in there that
could be conquered on this read,because we know that the texts
can be more challenging, likeyou said.
Jake Downs (23:33):
Yeah, and that's like, and this is a time where
either, a, you know, we can use,like, whatever texts we're
already using.
We can use those as a way toeffectively consume the text.
But, you know, b, if we do wantto add supplemental text, or
they can and should be reallyengaging, engaging text, or like
to your point.
Okay, if I'm doing like, if Ido want to pick some really
(23:54):
challenging technical vocabulary, you know, then maybe before we
read the text, I'm going to doa brief multi-syllabic routine.
Let's peel off what prefixes dowe see what suffixes?
Let's underline the vowels.
Okay, let's scoop, blend this.
So here's how I read this wordaccurately.
Here's what this word means.
Now a word like photosynthesis.
Okay, now let's split up, readthe text.
Okay, now we're going to comeback.
(24:16):
After we split up, read thetext using sport, let's come
back and talk about it.
You know, it can really sort ofnaturally weave into other
things that we're going to do tosupport word reading accuracy,
to support vocabulary, tosupport comprehension as well.
Lori (24:29):
Such a good point.
Yeah, I love that.
And then it's not somethingthat's like oh, the separate
tutoring thing that we're doingwe're not.
We're doing sport as part of anintegrated approach to teaching
reading and writing.
Jake Downs (24:40):
Yeah, and that's a really good point that you know
sometimes like to do a goodstudy.
It has to be very, I don't know, isolated isn't the right term,
but you're trying to controlfor a lot of variables and so,
like in a lot of the studiesthat are in this literature,
they've sort of set up thetutoring thing as its own
separate chunk during the day,which it totally can be.
(25:01):
But the principle here, being alead reader, an assisted reader
, you know coral reading textout, you know coral reading text
synchronously, you know like itcan and it should be a
technique, and one among many Idon't want to oversell it among
(25:23):
many that we can embed into ourinstruction to have text be
engaging, to make sure thatwe're helping students access
grade level text moreefficiently.
All right.
Melissa (25:28):
So we've talked a lot about texts, jake, but I've
heard you say things like theseshould be challenging texts at
grade level, maybe even abovegrade level, not at a student's
independent level.
And these connected texts, somaking sure they're, we would
love for them to be connected totopics they're learning about,
reading about.
I'm wondering about in like thecore instruction, core ELA
(25:52):
instruction time.
Could this fit in there as well?
Jake Downs (25:56):
Yeah, absolutely, and you know, I think right now,
along with the conversation ongrade level text, there's a lot
of conversation on core readingprograms.
I know in Utah our sciencereading legislation has required
a lot of schools and districtsto look at their core reading
program and update and adopt newcore reading programs, and I
think, as I talk with otherfolks, that seems to be
(26:17):
something that's happening in alot of states here in the US.
And so part of when I'm doingstuff with my core reading
program is, you know, this canstill be done and integrated
with that.
And this is actually where mythinking started to get a lot
more flexible with this wasthere was a couple studies again
(26:39):
from the late 80s that wereactually done here in Utah, a
little bit further south from meat Brigham Young University.
That helped me started to thinkabout how it could be done
flexibly during.
I mean, they called it basaltime, but we'd probably say, you
know, core reading time or tierone time or you know whatever
that lingo is for when we'retogether reading, doing text
(27:02):
stuff as a class.
So they had an interestingapproach in where and I alluded
to this earlier, but Eldridgeand College actually divided the
class up into thirds.
So rather than half and half,they divided the class into
thirds.
So what you had was the highestachieving group, that top third
.
They would just read the textin partners and then the teacher
(27:25):
would have some like a graphicorganizer, a little bit of
extension work.
Then the middle third and thebottom third.
They did the choral reading ofthe text together.
So it would be OK, we're inmodule four, you know unit one.
Here's our text we're reading.
That's how they would consumethe text and then they would
(27:46):
come back and the teacher woulddo whatever normal, whatever the
instruction was going to bewhile they were reading the text
.
The students would actuallyjust read straight through it
and then come back and theteacher would do the
instructional points afterward.
And I think that sort of solvesthe or mitigates at least a
little bit.
You know sometimes, especiallywhen in the upper grades, like a
fourth or fifth grade, you knowyour highest achieving readers,
(28:08):
in a lot of cases they can fly,you know they, and so sometimes
they get a little bitfrustrated.
Or it's more.
Perhaps it's more adaptive,it's more responsive if highest
achieving are working togetherand then the middle group, that
could still use some benefit.
You know that the extended oralreading practice is going to
(28:28):
have more benefit for them.
They're serving as lead readersfor the lowest third and you
know so it's that's perhaps amore productive way.
So they kind of did triad likesplit it into thirds that way.
But it doesn't have to be.
You know, like whatever normaltext I'm doing during my core
reading program time, you know Ineed to have a lot of tools in
(28:53):
my tool belt.
If there's one of me and 20 ofthem to say how are we going to
read this text, how are we goingto consume this text in a
productive way, and how am Igoing to make sure that my
students who struggle the mostto access grade level text, how
do I involve them in this textin a way that is also
simultaneously promoting theirreading accuracy, their reading
(29:16):
fluency and also their readingcomprehension.
So that's one approach, but youcould also split your class up
into halves as well.
I mean that would work justfine also.
But I think that one example ofsplitting as thirds is an
interesting way to think aboutit.
Melissa (29:33):
Yeah, and this reminds me of I'm going to do a real
throwback, lori, get ready.
Our very first episode sixyears ago was about, you know,
fidelity to a curriculum, andthis is kind of what we talked
about with that like, yeah,there should be some flexibility
because you know that coreprogram might just say, like,
read pages X to Z, right.
And this is the perfect timefor the teacher to bring in this
(30:06):
kind of technique and go, okay,they are going to read those
pages, how they do it.
I'm going to bring thisresearch-based technique in to
support my students the way theyneed it.
Jake Downs (30:18):
Yeah, I'm a curriculum person.
I like curriculum, I thinkcurriculum is productive, I
think curriculum gives a goodframework for teachers.
But I kind of go with theGoldilocks rule here that you
know, looking at especially someof these like really big
publishers that you know justmass producing the curriculum
for millions of students.
(30:38):
You know my classroom here innorthern Utah, or practically
Idaho, the specific readingneeds accuracy, fluency,
comprehension, but also likelinguistic or cultural, like the
type of text that's going to beresponsible for them is going
to vary, different than you knowall of you there on the East
Coast.
So there is room to, I think.
(31:00):
I mean this is where you know.
For me, too hot is that I'm justgoing to do exactly what the
curriculum says and check.
I checked all my boxes becausethen I've removed responsibility
for myself out of the equation.
It's now check.
I did what the curriculum says.
Whatever happens happens.
But too cold for me is likeokay, I'm just going to like
(31:23):
throw out the curriculum and dowhatever I want, because then
that's a lot of time and prepand I'd rather have basic
ingredients and then me decidehow to spend my time on crafting
the instruction, onimplementing the instruction,
rather than just sort ofcreating stuff from scratch.
That's my sort of middle groundof not too hot, not too cold,
(31:44):
but just right, and where ateacher can bring their
knowledge, their expertise,their pedagogical knowledge,
their science of readingknowledge, to be able to make
that curriculum like transformit into something better than
what it is as is.
As written.
Lori (32:00):
Okay, so we didn't prepare you for this question, Jake,
but I'm wondering have youtalked with any kids who have
used the sport routine?
Or is there any the technique,or is there any notes
anecdotally in the research fromthe kids, Like what they said
about it?
What they said about it?
Jake Downs (32:21):
This is great.
I love an impromptu questionlike this.
So let me I can first speak to.
When I was doing this in myclassroom as a doc student,
there was a couple like therewas a couple students that I
talked with parents and parentsbrought the kids to school early
and you know, I said hey ofanyone in my classroom who would
(32:42):
you want to read with twice aweek, and this of course he
picked his best buddy right andthis student needed a lot of
support.
You know, it was just sort ofclassic symptoms or not symptoms
, but classic data set that tome said dyslexia, right, so they
(33:03):
would come and they would readbefore school twice a week, and
I tried to make it like as cozyas possible.
So it's like, oh, you get mysoftest chairs right and you can
be right here next to my deskwhile I'm prepping things.
And occasionally it's likehere's a granola bar, here's a
fruit snack.
I mean it doesn't take a lot,but they had a lot of fun with
(33:24):
it.
But also I mean he didexperience good growth.
So and I have a couple otherkind of smaller experience like
that.
But there are a few studies thatand this again comes more so
from the dyad reading literaturewhich your listeners probably
not care about, the nuances ofthe different literatures here.
But there was one study wherethey just sort of asked
(33:46):
open-ended student responsesabout it.
And then there was anotherstudy where they kind of did a
more structured response withattitudes and the students by
and large the assisted readers,enjoyed it.
Now some of the tutors,especially on the attitude
survey, that one, they did kindof show that they didn't love it
(34:07):
.
But in this study they weredyad reading every day for 20
minutes for 90 days.
So, it's like over half a year,there is definitely potential
for burnout.
From my experience and sort oftriangling with that with the
2018 study that I just have thiscrazy belief that students
(34:27):
actually really enjoy it whenthey're in really good text and
when they can access that textreally well.
And so I'm thinking of one ofmy specifically one of my
readers that she was a strivingreader in fourth grade, so she
was below benchmark on accuracyand or and comprehension.
She was also a multilinguallearner.
Her family had, you know,migrated from Northern Mexico,
(34:51):
so she was.
She'd been in the US forprobably three or four years, so
most of her.
She's probably in kindergarten,I think, when they'd moved here
.
But she was very hesitant toparticipate in class.
I had to structure a lot ofthat to make sure she was
getting lots of oral languageexperience.
But you know she was reading abook on.
It was some sort of horse book.
(35:12):
That's all I remember and Idon't.
Horse is a genre I don't do inbooks or in movies.
They're just too sad.
But she really loved this book.
But you know she was able to andI know this is kind of like a
corny, but there's no way shewould have been able to read
that book independently byherself, but bringing in an
(35:33):
adult tutor to read with hertwice a week for 20 minutes, and
it was just a parent in myclass that I said, hey, I need
some volunteers who willvolunteer.
You know she was able to read abook that she would never be
able to access otherwise.
So I think there's room therefor more like empirical research
on engagement, on sort of theirattitudes, on their experience.
(35:54):
But you know you bundle thattogether that they're reading a
text more challenging thanthey'd be able to read otherwise
.
The text is probably moreinteresting than you know.
If I'm a fourth grade reader butI can only read first grade
text, there's a point whereMagic Treehouse starts to not
really pull my attention anymore, but I'm also okay.
So the syntactic complexity,the range of vocabulary, the I
(36:17):
mean all of that sort of stackstogether to say you know what?
This, this, I think it reallyis a viable, you know, one
practice among many, but a wayto think about how do we get
kids into grade level text, intomore challenging text?
But thinking of morechallenging text as generally
being there's a lot moreinteresting stuff happening in
grade level text than belowgrade levels text.
Lori (36:39):
So are there any challenges to this?
I feel like I want to talk alittle bit about that because I
think that you mentioned someright like the partnership
adjustments you mentioned thatearlier and how to kind of
navigate that but are there anyother challenges that teachers
should consider when they'rethinking about implementing
sport?
Jake Downs (36:56):
Yeah, so we've definitely talked about yeah,
there's, you know, justpartnerships as needed.
Right, there's not a hard andfast rule here.
We have also addressed a littlebit that, the peer burnout on
the lead reader side.
You know that's something towatch for as well, and I think
the way to avoid that is, youknow, one, okay, can I find a
(37:17):
way to rotate tutors or adjusttutors?
So, as a teacher, the easiestthing for me is going to be to
split my class in half.
Everyone's reading, you know,everyone's engaged.
I can sit back and drink a dietCoke, but that might not be
best for, like, my students.
And so maybe thinking aboutsplitting things up into thirds,
(37:38):
maybe thinking about, you know,maybe it's just the lowest
quarter of my students that aregoing to get sort of a lot of
support, which gives me threequarters of my students, or
maybe the top two thirds of mystudents or half my students,
that can sort of rotate in andout of tutors.
I also think it can be a, youknow, maybe it's today I'm using
it as a way to read our corereading text, tomorrow I'm using
(38:02):
it to do our science text onhow energy moves through an
ecosystem, and then Thursday,you know, hey, I've got some
funny giggle poetry.
You know, like Chase Young'sall over giggle poetry, like
here I've curated you know fiveor 10 giggle poetry poems.
We have that weird 20-minutechunk where we're not doing
computer lab.
Let's do that on Thursday.
(38:22):
Like it doesn't have, it canalso like sort of be flexible
with the difference.
So I think always shaking it upis one way to sort of avoid
that burnout, you know.
The other one is just thinking alittle bit about text
complexity, grade level text,challenging text, and when I was
talking about this once with agroup of teachers and I was
(38:45):
talking about how you knowthere's just a small handful of
studies that have done studentsin text two or three or four
grade levels above theirindependent reading level, and
the teacher's like I can't evenget my kids to like read grade
level text.
And now you're saying I have toread above grade level text and
that's a fair point.
(39:05):
But I think the way I'd respondto that is saying well, that's
a nuance of how it was conductedin a research study, you know,
to see how much stretch is toomuch stretch.
You know, is stretch a viableway to promote accuracy and
fluency and so it doesn't haveto be that when you're using it
(39:25):
in your classroom, I mean youcould curate bins.
That's a popular way of okay,here's a bin Purple is this
Lexile to this Lexile, red bin'sthis Lexile to this Lexile, and
you have kids read two or threegrade levels above their
independent reading.
That's one way to do it.
But again, going back to if I'ma fourth grade teacher, I
probably some of my strugglingstudents are striving students.
(39:48):
They're in a second grade level, so two grade levels above
would be grade level tech.
So I don't think text curationis always it's always a rabbit
hole we can go down as a teacherand it's something that I'd
rather streamline the textcuration process, which is going
to free up time for me to thinkabout the implementation, like
teaching that text.
(40:09):
So I would say, you know, juststart with what text are you
already using, because if thoseare grade level text, grade
level is challenging enough inthe era of Common Core.
Let's just start there.
What are texts that are alreadyachieving our content learning
objectives, our ELA objectives?
What are the texts we'realready using?
And start there what are textsthat are already achieving our
content learning objectives, ourELA objectives?
What are the texts we'realready using and start there.
But if we're doing supplementalstuff or other stuff during the
(40:31):
day, we don't have to get superticky tacky about like it has
to be exactly two grade, let'sjust is there a text the
students enjoy?
That's also going to give themchallenge when we're talking
supplemental reading, I think is.
I mean there's going to bevariation, but I think that's
good enough in the ballpark toat least start with for a
classroom teacher.
Pragmatically.
Melissa (40:52):
Jake, I'm also thinking one of the challenges
that could definitely happenwould be more of like a
management situation, and I'mwondering if you have any tips
for training or you know how doyou get students ready to do
this before they do?
Especially, I'm thinking ofthose lead readers like how do
they know what their role is?
Jake Downs (41:12):
That's such a great question and I'm glad you asked
that because that is a part ofthis that I haven't addressed
yet.
So, however, I'm doing it.
So let's say that I've gotthree parent volunteers that are
coming in twice a week.
I need to train thosevolunteers.
It doesn't take long.
This isn't rocket science, butit is.
There is a structured protocolhere, right, you are corally
(41:40):
reading the text with thestudent out loud for 15 to 20
minutes and maybe coaching themto say, hey, if it's an adult,
this generally I think works alittle bit better with adult
tutors.
But twice during that sessionyou're going to pause and let
the students reread a chunk ofthat text.
It can be a paragraph and thenover time maybe build up to a
half page or a whole page, andso it's adding in some repeated
reading.
So the student is reading partof that text independently.
(42:01):
It's kind of alternatingbetween choral reading but then
also an independent read, butit's stuff that's already been
read out loud and you just modelthat for them.
So it can be it really can bejust take one session and,
instead of doing the thing youknow, just train your adult
tutors how to do it, just modelhow to do it and like when I
would do it, I'd just get out atext with one of the parents and
(42:23):
I would just show exactly whatit looks like and that's
generally enough to make it work.
And you could also I meanthere's lots like multi-syllabic
vocabulary, I mean that easilycan stack in other
evidence-based things as wellfor what a volunteer would be
capable of doing.
Now, when I'm with my students,you know, I just keep it like
(42:47):
very like I do train them right.
So I would, whoever are goingto be my lead readers, you know,
I would say, hey well,sometimes in class we're going
to do, we're going to do sport,where I have whatever you know
or whatever kind of fancynickname I want to call it, and
I just would explain them reallyplainly how to do it.
And I'm probably not gettingyou know, and I just would
explain them really plainly howto do it and I'm probably not
getting into like, oh well,you're the higher achieving
group, I'm just going to.
I just keep like this is whatwe're doing and this is going to
(43:09):
be great for everyone, and Ijust kind of frame it as that.
And again, I would have likejust a quarter sheet that says
you know, eyes on text readingout loud.
At the same time it just sortof has my classroom protocol,
and then I would model it with astudent and then I'd have them
just pair up for like twominutes to practice it, and then
(43:30):
they would keep that sort oflike that laminated square cut
out that they can keep, and thenthey just do that whenever
they're being lead reader.
And then I'd also, hey, talkwith the assisted readers, or I
talk with the group as a wholeand just say, hey, we're going
to do this.
Sometimes it's just reallyimportant because it's going to
help.
Reading text can be hard, and sothis is a way that we can all
(43:51):
be engaged and able tounderstand and access the text
that we're reading, and thenjust kind of go over the simple
protocol so it doesn't take alot but it does.
That is an agreement that hasto be there and then so, like
most things right, like a clearprotocol, a clear structure, you
know, model it to sort of getit going, and then that is a
thread you have to pull.
So every couple of weeks it'slike, hey, hey, just a reminder,
(44:11):
here's what I'm seeing.
You know all the classroommanagement stuff, but hey, you
know, just a reminder, this iswhat it looks like, this is what
it should sound like, and, youknow, just to keep the
expectation there.
So so, just so that time can beused really productively.
Right, we want everyinstructional minute to be
maximized in its potential.
Melissa (44:29):
Yeah.
So, speaking of that potential,I think you've mentioned a few
times about the benefits.
But I'm curious let's get likea little bit nerdy here with the
research.
Like you looked at all theresearch on this technique like
what give, give some teacherslike the why, why they should do
(44:51):
this, what, what have you seenin the research that would?
Jake Downs (44:52):
would make me want to do this in my classroom.
So our conversation stemmingfrom my dissertation research.
So I I looked at every studythat's had that exact protocol
higher achieving reader, lowerachieving reader, synchronously
reading connected text and Ipulled studies, all I mean, I
did a comprehensive review.
So it was all the way back tothe 60s.
(45:13):
Long story short.
So what I found across that isthere's medium to large effects
in fluency and comprehension andthat's with that average dose
of, you know, 15 to 20 minutes,probably three to four times a
week.
That should be enough to yieldthose medium to large effects
over the course of 12 weeks.
Now they were both above.
(45:35):
You know, if you follow likeHattie's cutoffs for effect
sizes, they were both above 0.4.
If you follow like Cohen'scutoffs for effect size, they
were medium to large.
But what was interesting to mewas that the comprehension
effects were actually largerthan the fluency effects, which
struck me as interesting becausechoral reading text together,
(45:58):
that's more of a fluency printexposure reading volume.
There's not a lot of teachingcomprehension things happening
there.
So that is an interest andthere's a couple of reasons why
that might be the case.
Well, it could be the case thatstudents are accessing text
that they wouldn't be able tootherwise.
So they're being introduced tomore sophisticated vocabulary,
(46:20):
sophisticated language knowledgestructures et cetera.
That is benefiting theircomprehension, like that's
wonderful.
But it could also be and Idon't want to get too nerdy here
but a lot of the effects on thefluency side were especially
the older studies were accuracypercentage in connected text.
Well, accuracy has a ceiling of100.
So if a student started a studywith 96%, they only have 4% to
(46:43):
grow, which makes it hard tolike.
You can't have a super largeeffect when you only have four
to go.
So but there is researchindicating that it does support
the fluency as well, and that'sprimarily how it's talked about
in the literature iscomprehension and fluency.
I think there is also this likeprint exposure.
I think there is also this likeprint exposure, reading stamina
(47:04):
, flair to it, and I brieflyaddressed this earlier.
But we're always like I believein teaching, I believe in
instruction, so we should beteaching our readers.
But a lot of times I notice intier one instruction, the actual
reading students do sort of getslivered and diced up among the
(47:25):
instructional things that arehappening and we part of.
I think developing really strongliterate readers means that we
want to have readers that are,that can persevere through text,
that can read text for longerthan a minute.
You know, we've all had theexperience where reading with a
student and like especially likeI think of, like when I was
progress monitoring a student onan ORF passage and they like
(47:47):
start out so strong for like thefirst 10 seconds and even by
like the 60 second mark, likethey've just like wilted right,
like.
So we do want to build up theirautomaticity so that they can
process text with low cognitivebandwidth, because, well, one,
that's going to free up morebandwidth for comprehension, but
two, like we want to be able tohelp them sustain being able to
(48:07):
read text for an extendedperiod of time, for 15, 20
minutes.
So I think there is this anaspect there that if we're just
reading text for 20 straightminutes in a structured way, I
think there's benefits therethat that's hard to quantify.
But, especially when I think ofstriving readers, that's
(48:28):
something they're probably notgetting at other chunks during
the day and I think that's areally good.
That's something really goodthat we can scaffold for them as
well.
Lori (48:39):
Jake, this is awesome.
Is there anything else?
Is there anything we've missed?
Anything you want to leave ourlisteners with before we sign
off today about sport?
Jake Downs (48:49):
I can share with you all.
If folks want to like go andget into like the stuff I've
written on it, I can leave youall at like a link to Google
Drive folder or something whereI have a link tree link that
folks can go in and read more.
You know, read more about it.
But you know I would justemphasize that this isn't a
silver bullet, right.
This is one approach among many.
(49:11):
You know this is one tool in avery big tool belt, but I think
it is a viable way to help, say,any text I want to consume
during, any text we were readingduring the day.
I want to be able to consumethat productively Because if I
consume it productively, if Iread it in a fluent way, then
that means there's more stuffthere to comprehend, because the
student collected more thingsin the text along the way.
(49:34):
You know if that makes sense.
And so, whether it's thismethod or other methods, that
the text we consume is soimportant that there's no like
the text we use should matter.
They should be texts that arecontent area, informational
texts, like no junk texts.
And we're always thinking howdo we use these texts wisely,
(49:55):
especially for striving readersthat are still working to reach
grade level accuracy, fluency,comprehension expectations.
I think that would be my like.
Final word on how this fitsinto broader instructional
things.
Melissa (50:08):
No junk texts.
I think we should make at-shirt, yeah let's do it.
Jake Downs (50:12):
Let's do t-shirt, coffee mugs, we'll do it, all
Stickers.
Lori (50:16):
Well, thank you so much.
This is great.
I know I can't wait to try this.
So thank you so much for allyour good work and for talking
about it with us.
Jake Downs (50:26):
Pleasure to be here.
Melissa (50:27):
Thanks for the work that you all do To stay
connected with us.
Sign up for our email list atliteracypodcastcom, Join our
Facebook group and follow us onInstagram and Twitter.
Lori (50:40):
If this episode resonated with you, take a moment to share
with a teacher friend or leaveus a five-star rating and review
on Apple Podcasts.
Melissa (50:50):
Just a quick reminder that the views and opinions
expressed by the hosts andguests of the Melissa and Lori
Love Literacy Podcast are notnecessarily the opinions of
Great Minds PBC or its employees.
Lori (51:01):
We appreciate you so much and we're so glad you're here to
learn with us.
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