Episode 226
In this episode, Virginia discusses the importance of fluency in K-2 grades, emphasizing its role in reading comprehension. She shares strategies for teaching fluency, including within partner reading, read-alouds, and shared reading. Virginia highlights the significance of modeling fluent reading and incorporating songs and poems to enhance prosody. This conversation provides valuable insights for educators on how to effectively teach fluency to young learners.
Resources
- Watch Virginia Teach Fluency in this video
- Let’s bring back the magic of song by Tim Rasinski
- Virginia's Virtual Happy Hour Science of Reading YouTube Channel
- BONUS: A Repeated Reading Resource from our best-selling book, The Literacy 50
We answer your questions about teaching reading in The Literacy 50-A Q&A Handbook for Teachers: Real-World Answers to Questions About Reading That Keep You Up at Night.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Today we're diving into what fluency really looks
like in the early grades,because in K-2, it's about
building confident, expressive,accurate readers.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
We're joined by Virginia Quinn Mooney, a
fantastic first grade teacherwho brings so much joy and
intentionality to how sheteaches fluency.
From read-alouds and sharedreading to songs, partner
reading and foundational skills,she's weaving fluency into
every part of her literacy block.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Whether you're new to teaching early readers or
looking to strengthen yourfluency instruction, this
episode is full of ideas you canuse tomorrow.
Hi teacher friends, I'm Loriand I'm Melissa.
We are two educators who wantthe best for all kids, and we
know you do too.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
We worked together in Baltimore when the district
adopted a new literacycurriculum.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
We realized there was so much more to learn about how
to teach reading and writing.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Lori, and I can't wait to keep learning with you
today.
Writing, lori, and I can't waitto keep learning with you today
, hi, virginia.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Welcome to the podcast, hey thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
I'm very, very excited.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
We're excited too.
We get to talk to you aboutfluency, which is one of our
favorite topics, and you're oneof our favorite teachers.
We're so excited, oh stop.
But we actually get thisquestion a lot, so we really
wanted to have you on to talkabout it, because you know we
have a ton of episodes aboutfluency, but we have not talked
about fluency specifically inK-2.
And a lot of people askquestions like should we even be
(01:37):
talking about fluency in K-2?
Like the kids are just learninghow to read.
So you know, and if we do, whatdoes it look like for those
youngest learners?
So how would you, as a firstgrade teacher, how would you
define fluency at that primarygrade?
Speaker 3 (01:54):
So I have to say I think fluency is a long time
coming for this conversation.
I'm not really sure why it hashad a backseat, but it's
incredibly important throughoutthe grades.
For my I teach first and for mylittle ones I say all the time
if you want to see theimportance of fluency, spend a
couple of seconds with adisfluent reader and as you
(02:16):
watch them struggle throughwhatever it is they're trying to
read, it's so clear thatthere's no chance that they're
going to be able to comprehendit.
So for in first grade and inthe lower grades it really
begins.
My biggest job is thefoundational skills that I'm
directly teaching them.
You can't read fluently if youcan't read.
(02:37):
So decoding is absolutely partof fluency and my actual goal
with phonics and withfoundational teaching is to
eventually getting them to onphonics for that automaticity
part.
So fluency in K2, I guess, toanswer your question I don't
know if I've gotten there yetbut the fluency for even in
(02:57):
kindergarten through two is thatthey are, they can read the
words automatically and that itsounds pretty and that they have
the prosody of it.
And once they can do that, thatabsolutely, as Tim Rosinski
says, it's the bridge tocomprehension, but it is so.
Once they can actually read it,then they can read it fluently,
and then they can comprehend itbetter.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
And for most of your kids, though, I mean, they're
probably coming into first grade.
Most of them I would sayprobably are just fluent readers
, like generally.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Yeah, I think that's safe to say and it's one of the
reasons why I'm incrediblypartial to first grade.
We talked about this a littlebit before.
But you know, I essentially getkindergartners and I do all
that I need to do in first gradeand I pass them off into second
grade.
So it's an incredibly importantyear for fluency.
But it's not so.
(03:51):
It is their decoding.
But fluency also begins with mereading those fantastic read
alouds with that rich literatureand modeling what fluency
sounds like.
It also has a lot to do withtheir oral language.
It's not an option that thekids don't speak in full
sentences with me.
All of these things also leadto fluency.
(04:12):
You know, when I'm doing theread-alouds, as we all do,
what's better than sitting in arocking chair with a bunch of
cute little kids sitting infront of you looking up as
you're doing the read-aloud andyou know the voices and what we
do with our voice is just a tonof fun.
But I also make sure to pointout to the kids what is
happening with my voice, like ifI'm reading a particular story
(04:35):
and I use an accent or just, youknow, exaggerate that
exclamation mark.
I will stop and I'll say tothem like, did you love that?
Like, was that just so much funto listen to?
And even that it's justplanting the seed of how much
reading fluently will help themdown the road.
So, yes, when they first comein, it's absolutely the top part
(04:57):
of the rope that I'm focusingon fluency, but it's really the
bottom part of the rope thatwe'll be working on together to
eventually.
You know, every strand, thevery point of every single
strand, is fluency.
So the fact that we don't talkabout it more is somewhat
bananas, because that's trulythe end goal for the top and the
(05:20):
bottom of the rope.
But you know it looks verydifferent.
So I do teach fluencypurposefully.
I have a shared reading portionof the day.
We just started Bookworms andI'm loving this shared reading
portion.
It is.
It is.
The direct objective is for thekids to read fluently, and it
(05:42):
starts off with, as most thingsdo, I am reading to them first,
and they are either core reading, which means they're reading
with me, or they echo read,which means I read and then they
read right after me.
So they are practicing fluencywith me, as they're hearing me
and doing it at the same time.
And then they work with theirpartner and they read it for
(06:04):
several minutes and by the timethey're done, every kid is
(06:28):
fluent in on the skills.
And then we have the decodablepassage.
So the big difference is thereis direct instruction of what's
going to be in the passage.
So I'm not I'm not using thepassages as a reading instrument
.
I'm using it as a reinforcementof what we just learned.
So even with the decodablepassages, I read it to them.
(06:49):
First I focus on my voice.
We talk about how we read, likewe talk, and I do a core read
with that as well, even withtheir decodables.
And then they will spendseveral minutes partner reading
the decodable as well.
So they are partner reading andpracticing with both the
decodable as well.
So they are partner reading andpracticing with both a
decodable and and authentic text.
(07:09):
That's just a little bit harderduring that shared reading
portion of the day.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Thank you so much for sharing that.
I'm wondering, virginia, if youcan kind of talk a little bit
more like how you weave it intoeach area right?
So I heard you say thatfoundational skills you're using
decodable text to practice Iassume phonics patterns, yeah,
that you've taught and you'rekeeping fluency in mind, and
then in shared reading, you'reusing texts that are rich, that
(07:37):
are worthy of reading aloud.
Are there any specificstrategies you use during either
you know your decodable texttime or your shared reading time
or anything else that you thinkwould be really helpful for our
listeners to know?
Speaker 3 (07:51):
Sure.
So for the partner read, theway that they're partnered is
not a coincidence.
It's typically one student isjust a little bit higher than
the other, but we've spent a lotof time before they start going
over.
What exactly does partner readlook like and sound like right.
So they, you know, I'll say tothe kids before I send them off
(08:13):
okay, when you read, I want youto make your voices.
And they say beautiful.
And then we say if there's aquestion mark, our voices will
go.
And they say up, and I say whenthere's an exclamation mark, we
will read very.
And they say very excitedly.
And then I say, however, we'renot going to.
And then they have to replyback with yell at you.
That's why you know JanHasbrick and I love this she
(08:35):
says read like you're speaking,which I think we sometimes get
away from that, because you know, when the kids go to read and
there's an exclamation mark,it's like the sky is falling.
It's like no, no, mom just saiddinner's ready.
That's it.
A voice only really needs tomatch what we're reading and
also pointing along isincredibly important.
As they read, and when they'rereading with a partner, I'll say
(08:58):
to them so if you're stuck in aword you will, and they answer
me.
Take a minute, becauseoftentimes their partner will
just jump right in.
But they really just need totake a minute to remember what
we just learned.
And once they know they're notgoing to get it, that's when
they ask their partner, andtheir partner is always more
than happy to help.
Children are just the bestthey're.
(09:19):
They're generous and kind andit's in their nature to just
want to do what's best for eachother, and it really comes out
in the classroom all day, everyday.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
And you know we just talked to Jake Downs who told us
all about the research behindthis kind of paired reading.
So look at you doing someresearch based activities.
Look at that research based.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
What do you know?
Speaker 2 (09:42):
That's the way to teach a girl, evidence based, I
guess that's the way,evidence-based, I guess.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
I guess yeah, no, I and and I will say this is the
first time that I've done directfluency instruction.
I've always.
It's always just sort of been,um, like you know, I knew that I
was doing it in my mind, but Iwasn't specific with them that
this is exactly what we're doingand I and I'm really seeing big
strides, particularly my lowerkids, with their reading.
And you know, if you really arestuck on a word, even at our
(10:14):
age, if I'm reading a book thathas characters and I can't read
their name because it's got lotsof vowels, because they may be
from a different culture thanI'm used to, lots of vowels,
because they may be from adifferent culture than I'm used
to it, just I stop and theregoes my comprehension.
You know, there goes mydecoding, and I always try to
remember that when the kids arestuck in a word, it's like, well
, that's, they're going to stopright there and their
(10:37):
comprehension is going to stopright there too.
So this practice is just trulythe bridge to comprehension, for
them.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Virginia, I'm curious about with the partner reading
how long are the texts that youhave them read and does that
change over?
I just feel like first grade,like the beginning of first
grade to the end of first grade,is like such a difference in
where they are as readers it is.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
So, to start with, when I first started doing it,
we were doing Dan and theDinosaur, which is not a ton of
words per page.
You know the font is nice andbig.
There was a picture for themand now, when we come back from
break, I'll be starting on Frogand Toad of Friends, so you can
(11:22):
see the progression of the text.
See the.
You know you can see theprogression of the text.
So it definitely, it definitelyincreases in complexity and
even words on page.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Yeah, I imagine too you're really like that helps to
build that perseverance, thatstamina that we always talk
about.
Right, that you're really doingthat in first grade across the
year and those texts that youjust mentioned really show that.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
The one thing I don't give, and I just read an
article on this about trackingthe words and pointing along and
I couldn't tell if I shouldstop or not but I just it is so
important for them to track whenthey're particularly when
they're partner reading, becausethat's really when they know,
you know, it's the only way this, that's how they're going to
know when the other partner is,you know, stuck or not.
But I just, I love that readingfinger.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Do you, do you have a song to share with us about
that, or maybe you could sing itto us.
Do you want to sing it to us?
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Oh, Lori, listen.
Literacy community.
Don't ever doubt my commitmentto you.
All right, Do I love you?
Speaker 1 (12:23):
or do I hate you?
I have sang on this as this iscoming from someone else who's
also sang on this podcast before, so I hand you the baton, the
singing baton.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
Go ahead.
So it goes a little somethinglike this If you're reading and
you know it, point along Ifyou're reading and you know it,
point along.
Let my fingers track the word.
Listen carefully what you'veheard.
If you're reading and you knowit, point along, track the word.
Listen carefully to what you'veheard.
If you're reading and you knowwe're pointing along.
Every song has to end in a orelse it doesn't count.
So just to let your listenersknow, both Lori and Melissa were
(12:56):
dancing for me, so I appreciateboth Cheering you on Totally,
totally, but it is reallyimportant.
You know we joke, but trackingthe words really is key for them
at this grade.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
And having a really fun song to do it with is great
too.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
You know I have so many philosophies at this stage
of my career and one of thebiggest philosophies that I have
is If you can say it, sing itright.
If you can, if you can standthere, dance there, you know.
If you can walk, skip.
This is, we just lean into whothey are and and actually I'm
jumping ahead a little bit, butall I do poems too, for their
(13:33):
fluency, and we sing all of them.
And singing is huge for prosody, and prosody is how your voice
sounds, which you know we'vealready touched on a little bit,
and the singing leads sobeautifully into their prosody.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Yeah, I actually.
One of the things you're makingme think about is an article
that Tim Rosinski wrote calledlet's Bring Back the Magic of
Song, and it's basically aboutthat right, Like incorporating
the idea of song into buildingfluency.
So I'm so glad that youmentioned that.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
Well, you know, and I actually use it throughout the
day.
So, again, one of the otherthings that are big for me with
my fluencies is poems, and I doit for so many reasons.
One, they love it.
Two, I can use it for somecontent learning.
You know, I'll align it withwhatever I'm doing in my
knowledge building, and I alsouse it a lot for just even
(14:22):
classroom management.
You know, if they're a littlebit noisy, I can use my voice
and remind them that I need themto quiet down, or I can just
start singing.
This week we're studyingcaterpillars and the song is my
Tummy is Fat, and it goes on andon and on.
But so I can either remind themor I can just start to sing my
Tummy is Fat, and before youknow it, we have a rousing
(14:45):
rendition of my tummy is fat tothe end, and they're all lined
up beautifully with big smiles.
Much more fun, and they'relearning too.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Yeah, Can't forget the joy in teaching.
Thank you.
I'm wondering, Virginia.
I know that you mentioned bothread alouds and shared reading
and I know we've talked about iton the podcast before, but I
still feel like people getconfused about the difference
between those two.
Can you talk about how you useboth of them for fluency and
what the difference is betweenyour read alouds and your shared
(15:16):
reading?
Speaker 3 (15:17):
Sure.
So read alouds.
It's me right, the focus is onme and the focus is on me
reading.
It's me right, the focus is onme and the focus is on me
reading.
And I am reading the story tothem while they're sitting and
enjoying and listening, and it'spurposeful still.
And it's purposeful and thebooks are usually chosen for
very good reasons.
Again, it could either be whatwe're learning about in content,
(15:39):
it could just be a seasonalbook or it could just be a very,
very fun book, but, whatever itis, it's chosen for a very
specific reason that day.
So it's a read aloud.
I am reading to them and, again, focusing on my voice, focusing
on my own oral language.
There's lots of turn and talkso that they're developing their
own oral language, but thefocus is really, or the person
(16:02):
doing the reading is me, asopposed to the shared reading
every student has, depending onhow much I have in a class set,
but every student will havetheir own book, or they will
have a book with a partner andas I'm reading, they are
following, tracking that word,you know, tracking those words
and they're following along, sothat way, when they're, and then
(16:24):
it is that book that they willuse to do a partner read with.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Did that help?
Yeah, absolutely, and I'm justI'm seeing like different layers
of support here.
Right, the oral, the oralreading, the read alouds they're
just taking it in for languagecomprehension.
Right, the top part of the rope.
They're getting just whateverknowledge the vocabulary, the
syntax and whatever you're doingfor fluency.
(16:48):
Right, the top part of the rope.
They're getting just whateverknowledge, the vocabulary, the
syntax and whatever you're doingfor fluency.
Right, there's a lot thatthey're taking in every day from
you.
And then for the shared readingand the partnered reading,
that's their time to practicewith a text that might be at not
that same level, might be alittle bit Just a bump up, right
?
Speaker 3 (16:59):
A little bit of a bump up, yeah.
Yeah, but the shared readingand the paired reading is where
the one that they can they cangrasp a little bit.
Yes, it's the same text that Ijust read.
Oh, it's the same exact text.
Yes, yeah, yeah.
So they'll have.
So in the shared reading theyhave their own copy of whatever
I'm reading, gotcha.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
So they're following along as I read it.
Yeah, that's excellent.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
So like different layers of support to get them to
fluent reading on their ownRight and that's all whole group
and I even I touch on fluencyin small group.
I always refer to it as likefluency by happenstance when I
do it in my small group.
I know I'm repeating myself alittle bit here, but truly my
(17:39):
job is to.
When I pull kids into smallgroup, I'm doing it for their
foundational piece.
It's just, it's so important.
I do both sides of the rope allday long, but my small group
really is focused on theirdecoding and helping any child
that is just not getting thatphonics pattern, that phonics
(18:05):
pattern.
But even when I'm doing mysmall group, there's fluency
built into the small group.
If they're reading theirdecodable and they are not
reading fluent, I will stop andI'll say listen to me and I will
read it fluently.
I'm like now it's your turn.
So, even though my goal of asmall group isn't fluency, I
absolutely touch on it, so I'llread.
I'll model.
I.
(18:26):
I absolutely touch on it, soI'll read a model.
They will read it again.
I will change up what we'rereading in small groups.
So readers, theater is afantastic tool for fluency.
It really gives them no choicebecause they're there and they
love it and they embracewhatever character they're, uh,
they have that day in thetheater.
They, you know, they're handbones, they work it, they work
it.
Um so, even what they're handbones, they work it, they work
it.
Um so, even what they'rereading.
(18:46):
I will do poetry in small groupand again lean into that fluency
.
But I am sitting at that tablefor the decodable piece for most
of the year and now you know,we're going into spring and
they've done a fantastic job andthey've worked hard all year
and now they don't have to focusas much on the code, the
decoding, because they've done afantastic job and they've
worked hard all year, and nowthey don't have to focus as much
on the decoding because they'vedone that beautifully all year
(19:09):
and now they are a lot moreautomatic.
So now, even in my small group,we're moving away from
decodables a lot and we're usingnon-controlled authentic text
and I can do a lot more fluencywith there.
I will even tee them up to makesure they are fluent.
I will pre-teach vocabulary ifnecessary, because if they're
(19:29):
not sure what the word is, againthere's that jam up and then
there goes that automaticity andthere goes their prosody.
So even in this, even in smallgroups, fluency is there.
It's just not the mainobjective, it's just a
sub-objective.
I think I just made that wordup, but it works Potentially you
can use it.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
You can have it.
Thank you All.
Right, Before we dive, I wantto like dive a little deeper
into a couple of things you justsaid, and I think a good thing
to do first might be to quicklykind of recap.
So we're talking about sharedreading.
I'm sorry, we're talking aboutread alouds as you reading to
(20:10):
the students.
The students do not have a copyof the book.
You have a copy of the book andare holding it up.
They're hearing you model it.
Shared reading the studentsmight be sharing a copy.
They might have their own copyand you're reading their
tracking along.
Yes, that's their track timeand then they have this time
where they're doing this partnerreading and during that partner
reading, they could be readingthe book that you read for
(20:31):
shared reading and write thatyou modeled and that you
practiced with them, and thenI'm we didn't.
You didn't say this exactly,but I'm wondering also in the
partner reading, is it alsodecodable books or yes, it's
actually both every day, okay,so.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
So my shared reading portion of the day, that's when
they have their copy of whateverI'm reading and they are
reading out loud along with me.
It's either an echo read, whereI read first, they listen and
then they repeat what I've justsaid.
We all do that together or it'sa choral read, where we are
reading at the same time andthen they take that book that we
(21:11):
just tracked together and theygo off with their partner and
that's when they read togetherand that's when I'm walking
around and, you know, helpinganyone.
That's a little more justfluent, but they really do, they
do a really great job.
But but that's my role then isto just sort of, you know, roam
and hover and then.
(21:32):
So that's the shared readingportion, and then, during the
foundational piece, I introducea phonics pattern and then we
are, then we read decodable texttogether, sort of similar.
I will read it, they will callread, or they will echo read.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Can we talk a little bit more about your small groups
then, since we've clarifiedeverything that happens in whole
group Talk to us about?
Is there any like?
Do you choose your small groups, like who is working in your
small groups for any particularreason?
Are you looking for thingsduring their partner reading?
And then, yeah, then what doyou do?
How do they work?
What do you do?
(22:11):
How do they work?
Speaker 3 (22:13):
I say often that whoever needs me the most gets
me the most.
And in first grade,particularly the beginning of
first grade, who needs me themost are the kids who are
struggling with anything that'sgoing to get in their way of
decoding.
So any kid that is not thatjust is struggling with any of
(22:34):
the diagraphs or any of thegraphing phoneme correspondence,
that's who I tend to pull intoa group together.
I do have every Friday I doprogress monitoring and I use
that data for my next week'sgroups.
Or I also say this a lot mygreatest tool for assessment is
my eyes and my ears and myunderstanding of my students.
(22:56):
So I pull my kids into smallgroups to work more on that
decoding piece, phonography andcorrespondence.
We do a lot with Elkonin boxes,we do a lot with blending and
segmenting and then they willalways have a decodable piece at
the end of the small group.
(23:17):
And even with that decodablepiece, I well, I shouldn't say I
expect fluency, I hope forfluency from them and if they're
not fluent we will always goback until they are fluent.
Oftentimes it takes about threereads for the kid to for the
student to read somethingfluently.
But so again, it's not my.
My goal is that when they arereading that decodable passage,
(23:41):
they are able to decode theskills that we just worked on.
Once they can, that's when theycan move into the fluency piece
.
But I never just say you know,I have a fluency group but I'm
pulling them from fluency.
I pull them for directinstruction and fluency is
always the end goal.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Yeah, and like you want them to get to the place
where they're automatic, right,they're reading those words
automatically the unphonic thing.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
That's my goal.
The unphonic thing, I love that.
I love that word.
You can use that too.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
There you go, two for two, and yeah, and like you
said, I mean, the best way to dothat is the repetition.
Right, them seeing more andmore words and more words with
that pattern.
So the repetition is what youneed, and once they get it,
that's when they'll be fluent.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
Right, and it's.
The word study is the link toautomaticity, and then the
automaticity is the link toprosody and rate and everything
else.
So it's you know it is acontinuum and that's why you
know we always go back to therope, the literacy geeks that we
are right, it all comes back tothe rope, but you know it's all
(24:47):
the strands that weave into theone.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Yeah, okay.
So when we weave those strandstogether?
You mentioned prosody.
You mentioned expression.
Today we know that we wantstudents to like read, like they
talk right Out loud.
So when you do your modeling oryou do group practice, what do
you use to build that expression?
And I know earlier youmentioned song.
(25:11):
But I want to make sure that weget in some other tips for our
teachers that you use in yourclassroom.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
Well, honestly, particularly in this small group
, it's really modeling, and it'snot always me modeling, you
know.
If, if I have three kids in thegroup and one of my little ones
, just, you know, nailed it andhis or her voice was smooth and
beautiful, you know I'll stopand I was like, oh man, could we
just take a minute?
Could you do that again?
(25:39):
You know, and the other kidsare like that was amazing.
Yeah, so I model a ton, thekids model a ton.
But you know, also, again, withthe oral language and always
talking in full sentences, likeliterally everything brings us
to the end goal of fluency.
I can't stress poems and Ican't stress songs enough.
(26:01):
And again, I talked earlierabout, you know, pre-teaching
vocabulary.
Anything that we can do to makethe partner read easier for
them is moving them faster tothe fluency piece.
You know, it's not, it's notrate so much, it's it's more the
automaticity.
(26:21):
I don't necessarily want themto read fast.
For me, if I read too fast Ihave to stop and I have to go
back and read it all over againbecause I wasn't attending.
I'm like, why don't I just read?
And I have to start all overagain.
And you know we talked aboutthis briefly too, with with rate
.
Um, even within ourselves, ourrate changes from for ourself.
If I'm reading, you know, if I'mreading a book, I read one way.
(26:44):
If I'm, if I have to sign acontract, I'm slowing that down
and I am attending to everysingle word.
Anyway, I just got off topic.
So I guess really honestly gotoff topic.
So I guess, really honestly,everything, all roads sort of
lead to fluency and and languageis everything in in K2 and how
we speak to the students, again,even with us, always in full
(27:07):
sentences, with their writing.
If they write in fragments, Ihave them read it out loud and
then we talk about how that'snot fluent, like, as your reader
, I can't read fluently if youare writing in fragments and
you're not writing in fullsentences.
So it even, it even touchesinto writing.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
So interesting I'm.
I want to ask you a selfishquestion because I have a
kindergartner, an end of yearkindergartner, you know, going
into first grade soon, and whatI see with him, with fluency.
Like I, I wouldn't expect himto be where your kiddos are yet,
but when I'm thinking of hisfluency I am thinking of things
(27:45):
like I mean knowing the lettersand the sounds those letters
make quickly, being able toprobably decode some words
accurately, but not super quickon most of them.
Yet I'm wondering your take onkindergarten, since you get
kindergartners into your firstgrade classroom.
Is that the kind of fluency andI was thinking about, with the
(28:06):
writing too?
Because I mean, I'm thinkinglike his writing is getting
faster and faster.
Is that the level of wherekindergarten is for fluency?
What would, what would youexpect for kindergarten?
Speaker 3 (28:21):
Yes, actually, and he's, he's in great shape.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Oh, good, if he knows .
Speaker 3 (28:25):
Well, I mean Melissa's, his mom.
You will read.
You will read I don't, I don'tpush it a lot.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
I try to just support what he brings home.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
I don't push it a lot , I try to just support what he
brings home.
Yeah, no, it's, but that'sexactly right.
I mean, like I said before, youcan't read fluently if you
can't read right.
So our, so our first job inkindergarten, particularly
kindergarten, is teaching themto read and it's teaching them
the you know, the letter, thesound, simple relationship, and
and that that is the first roadto fluency for our little guys,
(28:57):
along with the rich language andlearning new vocabulary.
And you know, even inkindergarten they can do a
shared reading.
They're just doing it with alot less words on the page, and
the kindergarten teachers aretalking about how their voices
are beautiful and not soundinglike robots, even, you know,
with the little ones, butparticularly when they're
(29:18):
modeling, you know, for me Ibring a lot of attention to how
it sounded, and we talk aboutlike I'll even say, why did you
love that so much?
When, when I write, or, or, orif another friend reads, you
know they're, they're, they'repicking up on each other when
they're, when they read fluently.
But I'm, I'm digressing.
Yes, you answered your ownquestion.
Everything you said is what Iwould have said.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Excellent, yeah, I just I didn't want kindergarten
teachers to hear because we'dsaid kind of K2.
I didn't want kindergartenteachers to feel like that.
Is that what I'm supposed to bedoing?
Like, are they where Virginia'stalking about?
But not quite right, Like some,a lot of the same things
probably happening, but at adifferent level.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Well, right, and that's what I, you know.
Just to just repeat myself alittle.
But in one I had I have I'mbringing in kindergartners and
I'm sending off second graders.
I know I apologize for therepeat, but that's why the
beginning of my year, my fluencyfocus is very heavy on that
(30:20):
foundation piece and it's onlynow, as I am about to exit
second graders, that I can do alot more with fluency.
So there is fluency, it's justthe kindergarten world fluency,
the kindergarten world fluency,and in second grade it's, you
know, it will look so muchdifferent and they'll they'll be
more talking about themorphology of it all as opposed
(30:41):
to like the heavy foundationalpiece that I'm giving them.
It's an interesting perspectivefirst grade.
I really love it.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
So much happens in those three grade levels.
It's amazing.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
Lots of teeth falling out, though that's the only
downside.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Literally just falling out, just things falling
out of your face.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
I have a song for that too, by the way, but no.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Oh, we don't get that one.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
I mean.
I would.
Oh well, I mean, I feel likeyou have to do it now, Now you
have to.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
Hi, yeah, yeah, girls , you owe me.
I need more swag.
Okay, we were just talkingabout that.
Okay, Ta-ra-ra, boom-dee-ay, Ilost my tooth today.
I know that it's okay, causebaby teeth don't stay.
Ta-ra-ra, boom-dee-ay, newteeth will come my way.
They'll grow in any day.
Hip, hip, hip, hip, hooray.
(31:36):
I've actually called familiesat home to sing that after the
summer if they didn't lose atooth in first grade.
That's so fun.
Yeah, it's a rite of passage, Iguess in Mooney's room, I guess
.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Oh, amazing.
Okay, so you've like, I feellike you've packed this episode
full of hot tips, but is thereanything else that you've
haven't shared that you feellike you want teachers to know
about?
Making sure, like tips, to makesure that every students get
that meaningful fluency practice?
Speaker 3 (32:13):
That's a great question, I think, sort of to
bring us all the way back to howyou started this and how you
know you're.
You're trying to shine the lighton it more and I think the tip
that I would give is move it upin your toolkit, you know, if
it's not already prominent, justgive it a place of prominence
(32:33):
and, and you know, just thinkhow are you weaving it in?
I truly believe when we do readalouds we all are, I mean, it's
just, it's our sweet spot as K2teachers.
You know it's just so much fun,but it's almost impossible not
to.
But even in your decoding, andanytime they're reading, I would
always bring it back, like evenwhen we're, when I'm doing a
(32:55):
core read with my decodables, orif I have a sentence displayed,
it's like okay, whose turn?
Who wants to read it?
Like they're talking and youknow kids will take a turn and
we'll all be like that's amazing.
So it's just, it really hasbeen weaved throughout my day,
(33:15):
but because I bumped it up inorder of priority.
So just yeah, just move it upin your toolkit.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Yes, I was just going to say that that's what I wrote
, I wrote down on my littlesticky note here, which I often
do, which was just hearing youtalk about how it's not like you
do a little fluency time forlike 20 minutes, like I have a
little fluency block and that'swhen we do our fluency.
But you, you really just talkedabout how, no matter, even if
fluency isn't something you'vedone before yes, I can't imagine
(33:42):
there's a K2 teacher out therethat's not reading aloud to
students but you can just kindof switch the focus.
Not even switch the focus, justlike add a focus layer of okay,
fluency, let me talk to themabout my voice and what that
sounds like and bring thatattention to the fluency, as I'm
sure most teachers are alreadydoing it, but just bringing
(34:03):
students attention to it.
And same with, like I'm surethey're practicing their
decoding somewhere, but bringingthat fluency layer into it.
And I just I love that becauseyou know we talk about it all
the time, that you know, eventhough we have these like
pillars of reading, they overlapso much and you have to bring
them together.
That's the whole point of therope.
Right is bringing them together.
(34:24):
So thank you for sharing allthe ways you do that.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
And it really is fluency.
I mean, you know the goal iscomprehension but it's fluency
that gets us to comprehension.
And just one last thought thatI hadn't listed that you made me
think of.
So my students use the wordfluency, you know, they know it
and they will read with eachother and they will say that was
very fluent, you know they'relistening for it in each other.
(34:47):
So even that vocabulary,there's no word that you can't
throw at a kid, that they're not, that they can't grasp
typically.
I just put typically insidethat I don't get emails with
some word that some studentnever understood.
I'm like typically.
But you know they know whatfluency is because we talk about
it and we aim for it and welook for it in each other and
(35:09):
they look for it in me, virginia.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
is there anything else you want to share, anything
important that you're doing?
Speaker 3 (35:15):
Yeah, well, you know you guys have asked so many
great questions about you knowwhat does it look like?
And everything that is done isfor teachers and the whole.
You know, know better, dobetter.
And I'm a moderator on the whatI should have learned in
college page.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
I always say it wrong what I should have learned in
college.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Yes, I was going to say what I should have been
taught, but well, now it's justsort of called the big page, um,
and I'm also a Gawain fellow,which is a fantastic
not-for-profit organization thatis advancing education for, for
the teachers and I.
I've met so many teachers andI've been at this for so long
and one thing that I can sayunequivocally is teachers, we're
(35:58):
in.
If there's something that wecan do better for our students,
we want to do it.
Um, you know, so often we'retold you know baby steps and
heavy lift.
It's like no, it's not a heavylift, we're in, just tell me
what to do.
So I've started, um, I'm partof between the PAGE and the
Goyen Foundation.
We host evenings and we call itTeachers, teach Teachers, and
(36:22):
what it is is.
It is in my classroom with mystudents putting all these
things into practice, and I'vedone a small group.
(36:44):
We just did a three, fivewriting.
But it's exactly what teachersalways say we want.
Like, I'm in, I will do it.
Whatever is best for kids, I amin, and that's what teachers
we've always said.
We always will say.
But this is a really greatopportunity.
It was a great idea if I do sayso, which I just said so to
(37:04):
like literally say this is it,this is what it looks like and
this is what you can do.
So it's real actionablepractices that they can put into
place the next day.
But what's wonderful is it's anevent that people join and you
know there's so many smartteachers out there doing
wonderful things and they alsoshare what they're doing.
(37:25):
You know I say all the timeteaching is.
You know you plagiarize tocustomize, so we all learn from
each other and make it bestwhat's for us.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
Yeah, that's why we love having teachers on the
other and make make it bestwhat's for us.
Yeah, that's why we love havingteachers on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
So that we can share what's actually happening in
classrooms.
It's so important, Right, andactually that's that's who I
really appreciate learning from,Because you know, frontline
likes to learn from thefrontline.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Thank you so much, Virginia, for sharing all these
great tips and all these thingsyou do in your classroom and
bringing this idea of whatfluency can look like in the K2
classroom.
Now we know.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
Thank you guys for everything that you've done.
You've been instrumental trulyin this community and getting
the information out there.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
Thank you, I try.
As have you.
You have too Big time To stayconnected with us.
Sign up for our email list atliteracypodcastcom.
(38:30):
You have to Big time.
A five-star rating and reviewon Apple Podcasts.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
Just a quick reminder that the views and opinions
expressed by the hosts andguests of the Melissa and Lori
Love Literacy Podcast are notnecessarily the opinions of
Great Minds PBC or its employees.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
We appreciate you so much and we're so glad you're
here to learn with us.
Thank you.
Today we're diving into what fluency really looks
like in the early grades,because in K-2, it's about
building confident, expressive,accurate readers.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
We're joined by Virginia Quinn Mooney, a
fantastic first grade teacherwho brings so much joy and
intentionality to how sheteaches fluency.
From read-alouds and sharedreading to songs, partner
reading and foundational skills,she's weaving fluency into
every part of her literacy block.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Whether you're new to teaching early readers or
looking to strengthen yourfluency instruction, this
episode is full of ideas you canuse tomorrow.
Hi teacher friends, I'm Loriand I'm Melissa.
We are two educators who wantthe best for all kids, and we
know you do too.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
We worked together in Baltimore when the district
adopted a new literacycurriculum.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
We realized there was so much more to learn about how
to teach reading and writing.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Lori, and I can't wait to keep learning with you
today.
Writing, lori, and I can't waitto keep learning with you today
, hi, virginia.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Welcome to the podcast, hey thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
I'm very, very excited.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
We're excited too.
We get to talk to you aboutfluency, which is one of our
favorite topics, and you're oneof our favorite teachers.
We're so excited, oh stop.
But we actually get thisquestion a lot, so we really
wanted to have you on to talkabout it, because you know we
have a ton of episodes aboutfluency, but we have not talked
about fluency specifically inK-2.
And a lot of people askquestions like should we even be
(01:37):
talking about fluency in K-2?
Like the kids are just learninghow to read.
So you know, and if we do, whatdoes it look like for those
youngest learners?
So how would you, as a firstgrade teacher, how would you
define fluency at that primarygrade?
Speaker 3 (01:54):
So I have to say I think fluency is a long time
coming for this conversation.
I'm not really sure why it hashad a backseat, but it's
incredibly important throughoutthe grades.
For my I teach first and for mylittle ones I say all the time
if you want to see theimportance of fluency, spend a
couple of seconds with adisfluent reader and as you
(02:16):
watch them struggle throughwhatever it is they're trying to
read, it's so clear thatthere's no chance that they're
going to be able to comprehendit.
So for in first grade and inthe lower grades it really
begins.
My biggest job is thefoundational skills that I'm
directly teaching them.
You can't read fluently if youcan't read.
(02:37):
So decoding is absolutely partof fluency and my actual goal
with phonics and withfoundational teaching is to
eventually getting them to onphonics for that automaticity
part.
So fluency in K2, I guess, toanswer your question I don't
know if I've gotten there yetbut the fluency for even in
(02:57):
kindergarten through two is thatthey are, they can read the
words automatically and that itsounds pretty and that they have
the prosody of it.
And once they can do that, thatabsolutely, as Tim Rosinski
says, it's the bridge tocomprehension, but it is so.
Once they can actually read it,then they can read it fluently,
and then they can comprehend itbetter.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
And for most of your kids, though, I mean, they're
probably coming into first grade.
Most of them I would sayprobably are just fluent readers
, like generally.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Yeah, I think that's safe to say and it's one of the
reasons why I'm incrediblypartial to first grade.
We talked about this a littlebit before.
But you know, I essentially getkindergartners and I do all
that I need to do in first gradeand I pass them off into second
grade.
So it's an incredibly importantyear for fluency.
But it's not so.
(03:51):
It is their decoding.
But fluency also begins with mereading those fantastic read
alouds with that rich literatureand modeling what fluency
sounds like.
It also has a lot to do withtheir oral language.
It's not an option that thekids don't speak in full
sentences with me.
All of these things also leadto fluency.
(04:12):
You know, when I'm doing theread-alouds, as we all do,
what's better than sitting in arocking chair with a bunch of
cute little kids sitting infront of you looking up as
you're doing the read-aloud andyou know the voices and what we
do with our voice is just a tonof fun.
But I also make sure to pointout to the kids what is
happening with my voice, like ifI'm reading a particular story
(04:35):
and I use an accent or just, youknow, exaggerate that
exclamation mark.
I will stop and I'll say tothem like, did you love that?
Like, was that just so much funto listen to?
And even that it's justplanting the seed of how much
reading fluently will help themdown the road.
So, yes, when they first comein, it's absolutely the top part
(04:57):
of the rope that I'm focusingon fluency, but it's really the
bottom part of the rope thatwe'll be working on together to
eventually.
You know, every strand, thevery point of every single
strand, is fluency.
So the fact that we don't talkabout it more is somewhat
bananas, because that's trulythe end goal for the top and the
(05:20):
bottom of the rope.
But you know it looks verydifferent.
So I do teach fluencypurposefully.
I have a shared reading portionof the day.
We just started Bookworms andI'm loving this shared reading
portion.
It is.
It is.
The direct objective is for thekids to read fluently, and it
(05:42):
starts off with, as most thingsdo, I am reading to them first,
and they are either core reading, which means they're reading
with me, or they echo read,which means I read and then they
read right after me.
So they are practicing fluencywith me, as they're hearing me
and doing it at the same time.
And then they work with theirpartner and they read it for
(06:04):
several minutes and by the timethey're done, every kid is
(06:28):
fluent in on the skills.
And then we have the decodablepassage.
So the big difference is thereis direct instruction of what's
going to be in the passage.
So I'm not I'm not using thepassages as a reading instrument
.
I'm using it as a reinforcementof what we just learned.
So even with the decodablepassages, I read it to them.
(06:49):
First I focus on my voice.
We talk about how we read, likewe talk, and I do a core read
with that as well, even withtheir decodables.
And then they will spendseveral minutes partner reading
the decodable as well.
So they are partner reading andpracticing with both the
decodable as well.
So they are partner reading andpracticing with both a
decodable and and authentic text.
(07:09):
That's just a little bit harderduring that shared reading
portion of the day.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Thank you so much for sharing that.
I'm wondering, virginia, if youcan kind of talk a little bit
more like how you weave it intoeach area right?
So I heard you say thatfoundational skills you're using
decodable text to practice Iassume phonics patterns, yeah,
that you've taught and you'rekeeping fluency in mind, and
then in shared reading, you'reusing texts that are rich, that
(07:37):
are worthy of reading aloud.
Are there any specificstrategies you use during either
you know your decodable texttime or your shared reading time
or anything else that you thinkwould be really helpful for our
listeners to know?
Speaker 3 (07:51):
Sure.
So for the partner read, theway that they're partnered is
not a coincidence.
It's typically one student isjust a little bit higher than
the other, but we've spent a lotof time before they start going
over.
What exactly does partner readlook like and sound like right.
So they, you know, I'll say tothe kids before I send them off
(08:13):
okay, when you read, I want youto make your voices.
And they say beautiful.
And then we say if there's aquestion mark, our voices will
go.
And they say up, and I say whenthere's an exclamation mark, we
will read very.
And they say very excitedly.
And then I say, however, we'renot going to.
And then they have to replyback with yell at you.
That's why you know JanHasbrick and I love this she
(08:35):
says read like you're speaking,which I think we sometimes get
away from that, because you know, when the kids go to read and
there's an exclamation mark,it's like the sky is falling.
It's like no, no, mom just saiddinner's ready.
That's it.
A voice only really needs tomatch what we're reading and
also pointing along isincredibly important.
As they read, and when they'rereading with a partner, I'll say
(08:58):
to them so if you're stuck in aword you will, and they answer
me.
Take a minute, becauseoftentimes their partner will
just jump right in.
But they really just need totake a minute to remember what
we just learned.
And once they know they're notgoing to get it, that's when
they ask their partner, andtheir partner is always more
than happy to help.
Children are just the bestthey're.
(09:19):
They're generous and kind andit's in their nature to just
want to do what's best for eachother, and it really comes out
in the classroom all day, everyday.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
And you know we just talked to Jake Downs who told us
all about the research behindthis kind of paired reading.
So look at you doing someresearch based activities.
Look at that research based.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
What do you know?
Speaker 2 (09:42):
That's the way to teach a girl, evidence based, I
guess that's the way,evidence-based, I guess.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
I guess yeah, no, I and and I will say this is the
first time that I've done directfluency instruction.
I've always.
It's always just sort of been,um, like you know, I knew that I
was doing it in my mind, but Iwasn't specific with them that
this is exactly what we're doingand I and I'm really seeing big
strides, particularly my lowerkids, with their reading.
And you know, if you really arestuck on a word, even at our
(10:14):
age, if I'm reading a book thathas characters and I can't read
their name because it's got lotsof vowels, because they may be
from a different culture thanI'm used to, lots of vowels,
because they may be from adifferent culture than I'm used
to it, just I stop and theregoes my comprehension.
You know, there goes mydecoding, and I always try to
remember that when the kids arestuck in a word, it's like, well
, that's, they're going to stopright there and their
(10:37):
comprehension is going to stopright there too.
So this practice is just trulythe bridge to comprehension, for
them.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Virginia, I'm curious about with the partner reading
how long are the texts that youhave them read and does that
change over?
I just feel like first grade,like the beginning of first
grade to the end of first grade,is like such a difference in
where they are as readers it is.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
So, to start with, when I first started doing it,
we were doing Dan and theDinosaur, which is not a ton of
words per page.
You know the font is nice andbig.
There was a picture for themand now, when we come back from
break, I'll be starting on Frogand Toad of Friends, so you can
(11:22):
see the progression of the text.
See the.
You know you can see theprogression of the text.
So it definitely, it definitelyincreases in complexity and
even words on page.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Yeah, I imagine too you're really like that helps to
build that perseverance, thatstamina that we always talk
about.
Right, that you're really doingthat in first grade across the
year and those texts that youjust mentioned really show that.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
The one thing I don't give, and I just read an
article on this about trackingthe words and pointing along and
I couldn't tell if I shouldstop or not but I just it is so
important for them to track whenthey're particularly when
they're partner reading, becausethat's really when they know,
you know, it's the only way this, that's how they're going to
know when the other partner is,you know, stuck or not.
But I just, I love that readingfinger.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Do you, do you have a song to share with us about
that, or maybe you could sing itto us.
Do you want to sing it to us?
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Oh, Lori, listen.
Literacy community.
Don't ever doubt my commitmentto you.
All right, Do I love you?
Speaker 1 (12:23):
or do I hate you?
I have sang on this as this iscoming from someone else who's
also sang on this podcast before, so I hand you the baton, the
singing baton.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
Go ahead.
So it goes a little somethinglike this If you're reading and
you know it, point along Ifyou're reading and you know it,
point along.
Let my fingers track the word.
Listen carefully what you'veheard.
If you're reading and you knowit, point along, track the word.
Listen carefully to what you'veheard.
If you're reading and you knowwe're pointing along.
Every song has to end in a orelse it doesn't count.
So just to let your listenersknow, both Lori and Melissa were
(12:56):
dancing for me, so I appreciateboth Cheering you on Totally,
totally, but it is reallyimportant.
You know we joke, but trackingthe words really is key for them
at this grade.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
And having a really fun song to do it with is great
too.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
You know I have so many philosophies at this stage
of my career and one of thebiggest philosophies that I have
is If you can say it, sing itright.
If you can, if you can standthere, dance there, you know.
If you can walk, skip.
This is, we just lean into whothey are and and actually I'm
jumping ahead a little bit, butall I do poems too, for their
(13:33):
fluency, and we sing all of them.
And singing is huge for prosody, and prosody is how your voice
sounds, which you know we'vealready touched on a little bit,
and the singing leads sobeautifully into their prosody.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Yeah, I actually.
One of the things you're makingme think about is an article
that Tim Rosinski wrote calledlet's Bring Back the Magic of
Song, and it's basically aboutthat right, Like incorporating
the idea of song into buildingfluency.
So I'm so glad that youmentioned that.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
Well, you know, and I actually use it throughout the
day.
So, again, one of the otherthings that are big for me with
my fluencies is poems, and I doit for so many reasons.
One, they love it.
Two, I can use it for somecontent learning.
You know, I'll align it withwhatever I'm doing in my
knowledge building, and I alsouse it a lot for just even
(14:22):
classroom management.
You know, if they're a littlebit noisy, I can use my voice
and remind them that I need themto quiet down, or I can just
start singing.
This week we're studyingcaterpillars and the song is my
Tummy is Fat, and it goes on andon and on.
But so I can either remind themor I can just start to sing my
Tummy is Fat, and before youknow it, we have a rousing
(14:45):
rendition of my tummy is fat tothe end, and they're all lined
up beautifully with big smiles.
Much more fun, and they'relearning too.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Yeah, Can't forget the joy in teaching.
Thank you.
I'm wondering, Virginia.
I know that you mentioned bothread alouds and shared reading
and I know we've talked about iton the podcast before, but I
still feel like people getconfused about the difference
between those two.
Can you talk about how you useboth of them for fluency and
what the difference is betweenyour read alouds and your shared
(15:16):
reading?
Speaker 3 (15:17):
Sure.
So read alouds.
It's me right, the focus is onme and the focus is on me
reading.
It's me right, the focus is onme and the focus is on me
reading.
And I am reading the story tothem while they're sitting and
enjoying and listening, and it'spurposeful still.
And it's purposeful and thebooks are usually chosen for
very good reasons.
Again, it could either be whatwe're learning about in content,
(15:39):
it could just be a seasonalbook or it could just be a very,
very fun book, but, whatever itis, it's chosen for a very
specific reason that day.
So it's a read aloud.
I am reading to them and, again, focusing on my voice, focusing
on my own oral language.
There's lots of turn and talkso that they're developing their
own oral language, but thefocus is really, or the person
(16:02):
doing the reading is me, asopposed to the shared reading
every student has, depending onhow much I have in a class set,
but every student will havetheir own book, or they will
have a book with a partner andas I'm reading, they are
following, tracking that word,you know, tracking those words
and they're following along, sothat way, when they're, and then
(16:24):
it is that book that they willuse to do a partner read with.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Did that help?
Yeah, absolutely, and I'm justI'm seeing like different layers
of support here.
Right, the oral, the oralreading, the read alouds they're
just taking it in for languagecomprehension.
Right, the top part of the rope.
They're getting just whateverknowledge the vocabulary, the
syntax and whatever you're doingfor fluency.
(16:48):
Right, the top part of the rope.
They're getting just whateverknowledge, the vocabulary, the
syntax and whatever you're doingfor fluency.
Right, there's a lot thatthey're taking in every day from
you.
And then for the shared readingand the partnered reading,
that's their time to practicewith a text that might be at not
that same level, might be alittle bit Just a bump up, right
?
Speaker 3 (16:59):
A little bit of a bump up, yeah.
Yeah, but the shared readingand the paired reading is where
the one that they can they cangrasp a little bit.
Yes, it's the same text that Ijust read.
Oh, it's the same exact text.
Yes, yeah, yeah.
So they'll have.
So in the shared reading theyhave their own copy of whatever
I'm reading, gotcha.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
So they're following along as I read it.
Yeah, that's excellent.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
So like different layers of support to get them to
fluent reading on their ownRight and that's all whole group
and I even I touch on fluencyin small group.
I always refer to it as likefluency by happenstance when I
do it in my small group.
I know I'm repeating myself alittle bit here, but truly my
(17:39):
job is to.
When I pull kids into smallgroup, I'm doing it for their
foundational piece.
It's just, it's so important.
I do both sides of the rope allday long, but my small group
really is focused on theirdecoding and helping any child
that is just not getting thatphonics pattern, that phonics
(18:05):
pattern.
But even when I'm doing mysmall group, there's fluency
built into the small group.
If they're reading theirdecodable and they are not
reading fluent, I will stop andI'll say listen to me and I will
read it fluently.
I'm like now it's your turn.
So, even though my goal of asmall group isn't fluency, I
absolutely touch on it, so I'llread.
I'll model.
I.
(18:26):
I absolutely touch on it, soI'll read a model.
They will read it again.
I will change up what we'rereading in small groups.
So readers, theater is afantastic tool for fluency.
It really gives them no choicebecause they're there and they
love it and they embracewhatever character they're, uh,
they have that day in thetheater.
They, you know, they're handbones, they work it, they work
it.
Um so, even what they're handbones, they work it, they work
it.
Um so, even what they'rereading.
(18:46):
I will do poetry in small groupand again lean into that fluency
.
But I am sitting at that tablefor the decodable piece for most
of the year and now you know,we're going into spring and
they've done a fantastic job andthey've worked hard all year
and now they don't have to focusas much on the code, the
decoding, because they've done afantastic job and they've
worked hard all year, and nowthey don't have to focus as much
on the decoding because they'vedone that beautifully all year
(19:09):
and now they are a lot moreautomatic.
So now, even in my small group,we're moving away from
decodables a lot and we're usingnon-controlled authentic text
and I can do a lot more fluencywith there.
I will even tee them up to makesure they are fluent.
I will pre-teach vocabulary ifnecessary, because if they're
(19:29):
not sure what the word is, againthere's that jam up and then
there goes that automaticity andthere goes their prosody.
So even in this, even in smallgroups, fluency is there.
It's just not the mainobjective, it's just a
sub-objective.
I think I just made that wordup, but it works Potentially you
can use it.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
You can have it.
Thank you All.
Right, Before we dive, I wantto like dive a little deeper
into a couple of things you justsaid, and I think a good thing
to do first might be to quicklykind of recap.
So we're talking about sharedreading.
I'm sorry, we're talking aboutread alouds as you reading to
(20:10):
the students.
The students do not have a copyof the book.
You have a copy of the book andare holding it up.
They're hearing you model it.
Shared reading the studentsmight be sharing a copy.
They might have their own copyand you're reading their
tracking along.
Yes, that's their track timeand then they have this time
where they're doing this partnerreading and during that partner
reading, they could be readingthe book that you read for
(20:31):
shared reading and write thatyou modeled and that you
practiced with them, and thenI'm we didn't.
You didn't say this exactly,but I'm wondering also in the
partner reading, is it alsodecodable books or yes, it's
actually both every day, okay,so.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
So my shared reading portion of the day, that's when
they have their copy of whateverI'm reading and they are
reading out loud along with me.
It's either an echo read, whereI read first, they listen and
then they repeat what I've justsaid.
We all do that together or it'sa choral read, where we are
reading at the same time andthen they take that book that we
(21:11):
just tracked together and theygo off with their partner and
that's when they read togetherand that's when I'm walking
around and, you know, helpinganyone.
That's a little more justfluent, but they really do, they
do a really great job.
But but that's my role then isto just sort of, you know, roam
and hover and then.
(21:32):
So that's the shared readingportion, and then, during the
foundational piece, I introducea phonics pattern and then we
are, then we read decodable texttogether, sort of similar.
I will read it, they will callread, or they will echo read.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Can we talk a little bit more about your small groups
then, since we've clarifiedeverything that happens in whole
group Talk to us about?
Is there any like?
Do you choose your small groups, like who is working in your
small groups for any particularreason?
Are you looking for thingsduring their partner reading?
And then, yeah, then what doyou do?
How do they work?
What do you do?
(22:11):
How do they work?
Speaker 3 (22:13):
I say often that whoever needs me the most gets
me the most.
And in first grade,particularly the beginning of
first grade, who needs me themost are the kids who are
struggling with anything that'sgoing to get in their way of
decoding.
So any kid that is not thatjust is struggling with any of
(22:34):
the diagraphs or any of thegraphing phoneme correspondence,
that's who I tend to pull intoa group together.
I do have every Friday I doprogress monitoring and I use
that data for my next week'sgroups.
Or I also say this a lot mygreatest tool for assessment is
my eyes and my ears and myunderstanding of my students.
(22:56):
So I pull my kids into smallgroups to work more on that
decoding piece, phonography andcorrespondence.
We do a lot with Elkonin boxes,we do a lot with blending and
segmenting and then they willalways have a decodable piece at
the end of the small group.
(23:17):
And even with that decodablepiece, I well, I shouldn't say I
expect fluency, I hope forfluency from them and if they're
not fluent we will always goback until they are fluent.
Oftentimes it takes about threereads for the kid to for the
student to read somethingfluently.
But so again, it's not my.
My goal is that when they arereading that decodable passage,
(23:41):
they are able to decode theskills that we just worked on.
Once they can, that's when theycan move into the fluency piece
.
But I never just say you know,I have a fluency group but I'm
pulling them from fluency.
I pull them for directinstruction and fluency is
always the end goal.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Yeah, and like you want them to get to the place
where they're automatic, right,they're reading those words
automatically the unphonic thing.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
That's my goal.
The unphonic thing, I love that.
I love that word.
You can use that too.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
There you go, two for two, and yeah, and like you
said, I mean, the best way to dothat is the repetition.
Right, them seeing more andmore words and more words with
that pattern.
So the repetition is what youneed, and once they get it,
that's when they'll be fluent.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
Right, and it's.
The word study is the link toautomaticity, and then the
automaticity is the link toprosody and rate and everything
else.
So it's you know it is acontinuum and that's why you
know we always go back to therope, the literacy geeks that we
are right, it all comes back tothe rope, but you know it's all
(24:47):
the strands that weave into theone.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Yeah, okay.
So when we weave those strandstogether?
You mentioned prosody.
You mentioned expression.
Today we know that we wantstudents to like read, like they
talk right Out loud.
So when you do your modeling oryou do group practice, what do
you use to build that expression?
And I know earlier youmentioned song.
(25:11):
But I want to make sure that weget in some other tips for our
teachers that you use in yourclassroom.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
Well, honestly, particularly in this small group
, it's really modeling, and it'snot always me modeling, you
know.
If, if I have three kids in thegroup and one of my little ones
, just, you know, nailed it andhis or her voice was smooth and
beautiful, you know I'll stopand I was like, oh man, could we
just take a minute?
Could you do that again?
(25:39):
You know, and the other kidsare like that was amazing.
Yeah, so I model a ton, thekids model a ton.
But you know, also, again, withthe oral language and always
talking in full sentences, likeliterally everything brings us
to the end goal of fluency.
I can't stress poems and Ican't stress songs enough.
(26:01):
And again, I talked earlierabout, you know, pre-teaching
vocabulary.
Anything that we can do to makethe partner read easier for
them is moving them faster tothe fluency piece.
You know, it's not, it's notrate so much, it's it's more the
automaticity.
(26:21):
I don't necessarily want themto read fast.
For me, if I read too fast Ihave to stop and I have to go
back and read it all over againbecause I wasn't attending.
I'm like, why don't I just read?
And I have to start all overagain.
And you know we talked aboutthis briefly too, with with rate
.
Um, even within ourselves, ourrate changes from for ourself.
If I'm reading, you know, if I'mreading a book, I read one way.
(26:44):
If I'm, if I have to sign acontract, I'm slowing that down
and I am attending to everysingle word.
Anyway, I just got off topic.
So I guess really honestly gotoff topic.
So I guess, really honestly,everything, all roads sort of
lead to fluency and and languageis everything in in K2 and how
we speak to the students, again,even with us, always in full
(27:07):
sentences, with their writing.
If they write in fragments, Ihave them read it out loud and
then we talk about how that'snot fluent, like, as your reader
, I can't read fluently if youare writing in fragments and
you're not writing in fullsentences.
So it even, it even touchesinto writing.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
So interesting I'm.
I want to ask you a selfishquestion because I have a
kindergartner, an end of yearkindergartner, you know, going
into first grade soon, and whatI see with him, with fluency.
Like I, I wouldn't expect himto be where your kiddos are yet,
but when I'm thinking of hisfluency I am thinking of things
(27:45):
like I mean knowing the lettersand the sounds those letters
make quickly, being able toprobably decode some words
accurately, but not super quickon most of them.
Yet I'm wondering your take onkindergarten, since you get
kindergartners into your firstgrade classroom.
Is that the kind of fluency andI was thinking about, with the
(28:06):
writing too?
Because I mean, I'm thinkinglike his writing is getting
faster and faster.
Is that the level of wherekindergarten is for fluency?
What would, what would youexpect for kindergarten?
Speaker 3 (28:21):
Yes, actually, and he's, he's in great shape.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Oh, good, if he knows .
Speaker 3 (28:25):
Well, I mean Melissa's, his mom.
You will read.
You will read I don't, I don'tpush it a lot.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
I try to just support what he brings home.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
I don't push it a lot , I try to just support what he
brings home.
Yeah, no, it's, but that'sexactly right.
I mean, like I said before, youcan't read fluently if you
can't read right.
So our, so our first job inkindergarten, particularly
kindergarten, is teaching themto read and it's teaching them
the you know, the letter, thesound, simple relationship, and
and that that is the first roadto fluency for our little guys,
(28:57):
along with the rich language andlearning new vocabulary.
And you know, even inkindergarten they can do a
shared reading.
They're just doing it with alot less words on the page, and
the kindergarten teachers aretalking about how their voices
are beautiful and not soundinglike robots, even, you know,
with the little ones, butparticularly when they're
(29:18):
modeling, you know, for me Ibring a lot of attention to how
it sounded, and we talk aboutlike I'll even say, why did you
love that so much?
When, when I write, or, or, orif another friend reads, you
know they're, they're, they'repicking up on each other when
they're, when they read fluently.
But I'm, I'm digressing.
Yes, you answered your ownquestion.
Everything you said is what Iwould have said.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Excellent, yeah, I just I didn't want kindergarten
teachers to hear because we'dsaid kind of K2.
I didn't want kindergartenteachers to feel like that.
Is that what I'm supposed to bedoing?
Like, are they where Virginia'stalking about?
But not quite right, Like some,a lot of the same things
probably happening, but at adifferent level.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Well, right, and that's what I, you know.
Just to just repeat myself alittle.
But in one I had I have I'mbringing in kindergartners and
I'm sending off second graders.
I know I apologize for therepeat, but that's why the
beginning of my year, my fluencyfocus is very heavy on that
(30:20):
foundation piece and it's onlynow, as I am about to exit
second graders, that I can do alot more with fluency.
So there is fluency, it's justthe kindergarten world fluency,
the kindergarten world fluency,and in second grade it's, you
know, it will look so muchdifferent and they'll they'll be
more talking about themorphology of it all as opposed
(30:41):
to like the heavy foundationalpiece that I'm giving them.
It's an interesting perspectivefirst grade.
I really love it.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
So much happens in those three grade levels.
It's amazing.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
Lots of teeth falling out, though that's the only
downside.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Literally just falling out, just things falling
out of your face.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
I have a song for that too, by the way, but no.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Oh, we don't get that one.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
I mean.
I would.
Oh well, I mean, I feel likeyou have to do it now, Now you
have to.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
Hi, yeah, yeah, girls , you owe me.
I need more swag.
Okay, we were just talkingabout that.
Okay, Ta-ra-ra, boom-dee-ay, Ilost my tooth today.
I know that it's okay, causebaby teeth don't stay.
Ta-ra-ra, boom-dee-ay, newteeth will come my way.
They'll grow in any day.
Hip, hip, hip, hip, hooray.
(31:36):
I've actually called familiesat home to sing that after the
summer if they didn't lose atooth in first grade.
That's so fun.
Yeah, it's a rite of passage, Iguess in Mooney's room, I guess
.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Oh, amazing.
Okay, so you've like, I feellike you've packed this episode
full of hot tips, but is thereanything else that you've
haven't shared that you feellike you want teachers to know
about?
Making sure, like tips, to makesure that every students get
that meaningful fluency practice?
Speaker 3 (32:13):
That's a great question, I think, sort of to
bring us all the way back to howyou started this and how you
know you're.
You're trying to shine the lighton it more and I think the tip
that I would give is move it upin your toolkit, you know, if
it's not already prominent, justgive it a place of prominence
(32:33):
and, and you know, just thinkhow are you weaving it in?
I truly believe when we do readalouds we all are, I mean, it's
just, it's our sweet spot as K2teachers.
You know it's just so much fun,but it's almost impossible not
to.
But even in your decoding, andanytime they're reading, I would
always bring it back, like evenwhen we're, when I'm doing a
(32:55):
core read with my decodables, orif I have a sentence displayed,
it's like okay, whose turn?
Who wants to read it?
Like they're talking and youknow kids will take a turn and
we'll all be like that's amazing.
So it's just, it really hasbeen weaved throughout my day,
(33:15):
but because I bumped it up inorder of priority.
So just yeah, just move it upin your toolkit.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Yes, I was just going to say that that's what I wrote
, I wrote down on my littlesticky note here, which I often
do, which was just hearing youtalk about how it's not like you
do a little fluency time forlike 20 minutes, like I have a
little fluency block and that'swhen we do our fluency.
But you, you really just talkedabout how, no matter, even if
fluency isn't something you'vedone before yes, I can't imagine
(33:42):
there's a K2 teacher out therethat's not reading aloud to
students but you can just kindof switch the focus.
Not even switch the focus, justlike add a focus layer of okay,
fluency, let me talk to themabout my voice and what that
sounds like and bring thatattention to the fluency, as I'm
sure most teachers are alreadydoing it, but just bringing
(34:03):
students attention to it.
And same with, like I'm surethey're practicing their
decoding somewhere, but bringingthat fluency layer into it.
And I just I love that becauseyou know we talk about it all
the time, that you know, eventhough we have these like
pillars of reading, they overlapso much and you have to bring
them together.
That's the whole point of therope.
Right is bringing them together.
(34:24):
So thank you for sharing allthe ways you do that.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
And it really is fluency.
I mean, you know the goal iscomprehension but it's fluency
that gets us to comprehension.
And just one last thought thatI hadn't listed that you made me
think of.
So my students use the wordfluency, you know, they know it
and they will read with eachother and they will say that was
very fluent, you know they'relistening for it in each other.
(34:47):
So even that vocabulary,there's no word that you can't
throw at a kid, that they're not, that they can't grasp
typically.
I just put typically insidethat I don't get emails with
some word that some studentnever understood.
I'm like typically.
But you know they know whatfluency is because we talk about
it and we aim for it and welook for it in each other and
(35:09):
they look for it in me, virginia.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
is there anything else you want to share, anything
important that you're doing?
Speaker 3 (35:15):
Yeah, well, you know you guys have asked so many
great questions about you knowwhat does it look like?
And everything that is done isfor teachers and the whole.
You know, know better, dobetter.
And I'm a moderator on the whatI should have learned in
college page.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
I always say it wrong what I should have learned in
college.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Yes, I was going to say what I should have been
taught, but well, now it's justsort of called the big page, um,
and I'm also a Gawain fellow,which is a fantastic
not-for-profit organization thatis advancing education for, for
the teachers and I.
I've met so many teachers andI've been at this for so long
and one thing that I can sayunequivocally is teachers, we're
(35:58):
in.
If there's something that wecan do better for our students,
we want to do it.
Um, you know, so often we'retold you know baby steps and
heavy lift.
It's like no, it's not a heavylift, we're in, just tell me
what to do.
So I've started, um, I'm partof between the PAGE and the
Goyen Foundation.
We host evenings and we call itTeachers, teach Teachers, and
(36:22):
what it is is.
It is in my classroom with mystudents putting all these
things into practice, and I'vedone a small group.
(36:44):
We just did a three, fivewriting.
But it's exactly what teachersalways say we want.
Like, I'm in, I will do it.
Whatever is best for kids, I amin, and that's what teachers
we've always said.
We always will say.
But this is a really greatopportunity.
It was a great idea if I do sayso, which I just said so to
(37:04):
like literally say this is it,this is what it looks like and
this is what you can do.
So it's real actionablepractices that they can put into
place the next day.
But what's wonderful is it's anevent that people join and you
know there's so many smartteachers out there doing
wonderful things and they alsoshare what they're doing.
(37:25):
You know I say all the timeteaching is.
You know you plagiarize tocustomize, so we all learn from
each other and make it bestwhat's for us.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
Yeah, that's why we love having teachers on the
other and make make it bestwhat's for us.
Yeah, that's why we love havingteachers on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
So that we can share what's actually happening in
classrooms.
It's so important, Right, andactually that's that's who I
really appreciate learning from,Because you know, frontline
likes to learn from thefrontline.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Thank you so much, Virginia, for sharing all these
great tips and all these thingsyou do in your classroom and
bringing this idea of whatfluency can look like in the K2
classroom.
Now we know.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
Thank you guys for everything that you've done.
You've been instrumental trulyin this community and getting
the information out there.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
Thank you, I try.
As have you.
You have too Big time To stayconnected with us.
Sign up for our email list atliteracypodcastcom.
(38:30):
You have to Big time.
A five-star rating and reviewon Apple Podcasts.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
Just a quick reminder that the views and opinions
expressed by the hosts andguests of the Melissa and Lori
Love Literacy Podcast are notnecessarily the opinions of
Great Minds PBC or its employees.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
We appreciate you so much and we're so glad you're
here to learn with us.
Thank you.
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