[Listen Again] Ep. 120: Research-Based Routines for Developing Decoding Skills with Julia Lindsey

From August 12, 2022

Talking with Dr. Julia Lindsey is like popping into the classroom next door to chat with your best teacher friend after school. On this podcast, Julia shares what evidence says that young readers need to know to help them decode words efficiently. We discuss foundational reading skills, starting with oral language and print concepts through multisyllabic word reading. Instructional swaps take this conversation to the classroom where Julia tells us what to swap to improve instruction. Efficient and effective instruction is critical when teaching decoding. 

Resources
Reading Above the Fray by Dr. Julia B. Lindsey

We answer your questions about teaching reading in The Literacy 50-A Q&A Handbook for Teachers: Real-World Answers to Questions About Reading That Keep You Up at Night.

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Episode Transcript

Lori (00:01):
Welcome teacher friend.
I'm Laurie and I'm Melissa.
We are two literacy educatorsin Baltimore.
We want the best for all kidsand we know you do too.

Melissa (00:11):
Our district recently adopted a new literacy
curriculum, which meant a lot ofchange for everyone.
Laurie and I can't wait to keeplearning about literacy with
you today.

Lori (00:25):
Hi everyone.
Welcome to Melissa and LaurieLove Literacy Literacy Podcast.
Today we have an incredibleguest and I'm so excited because
she has a resource for allteachers, but especially primary
teachers, and it just droppedon the market, so we'll be sure
to talk about that a whole lottoday.

(00:46):
It's called the Book ReadingAbove the Fray, and I read this
book and I felt like I wastalking with a teacher friend
while reading it.
There are just so manyactivities and strategies.
I felt like I was back in theclassroom and just chatting with
my teacher neighbor, sharingtips and sharing best practices,

(01:09):
and it was just so fun to readand easy to read.
I cannot underscore that enough.
So, melissa, I know you'reexcited for our guest today
because she's one of ourfavorites of all time.

Melissa (01:19):
Yes, she is.
So we have Dr Julia Lindsay.
Yeah, we're one of our favoriteguests, like you said, it was
about a year ago that we had heron and just love her, and we
said at the time that we wouldhave her back when her book came
out.
And so here we are to talkabout her book and all about
decoding.

(01:40):
And we'll talk all about whatit's all about, but what the
evidence says that young readersneed to know to help them
decode words efficiently, andwe'll get into that during our
podcast today.
Yeah, so Julia welcome to thepodcast.

Julia Lindsey (01:56):
I am so happy to be back with you all.
I'm very excited to talk aboutreading above the fray today.

Lori (02:02):
Yeah, we're so glad you're here and I honestly can't wait
to hear more about how you chosethe title personally.
But first I'd love for you totell us a little bit about
yourself.

Julia Lindsey (02:14):
Yes, thank you.
I would love to set the stagefor how I became a
self-proclaimed phonics nerd andam not ashamed of that, no
matter what controversies mightbe happening in the reading
space.
So I actually got reallyinterested in reading and in
education in college when I wasa servant leader intern with the

(02:37):
Children's Defense Fund,freedom Schools, and I started
interning with that organizationthe summer after my sophomore
year and their mission is reallyaround loving literacy and
reading lots of wonderfulrepresentative books and feeling
really confident and excited toread.
And I noticed, even as a collegestudent who was not an

(02:59):
education major I was apsychology major that there was
something sort of off about thisin the littlest grades, the K1,
because I thought why aren't weteaching them how to read?
We're just doing all this otherfun stuff.
But wouldn't it be cool if wealso helped make sure that these
little ones were able to readthemselves, not just do a lot of
fun comprehension and otherthings?

(03:20):
So, coming back, my second yearI actually proposed to the
director of the program that Idevelop a phonics program for
the little K through 2 andintroduced a addition of some
partnerships with some of theolder kids to do tutoring as
well.
And to be honest, looking back,I had no idea what I was doing.
But you kind of did you kind of, did I kind of?

Melissa (03:43):
did.
You had a gut instinct, I did.

Julia Lindsey (03:46):
I had a gut instinct.
I tried to look at the research, trying to be like a studious
college student, but it was likea kind of a hilarious attempted
experiment.
And then I got into theclassroom where I taught in New
York City kindergarten, firstgrade and I taught in a school
that was really in love withleveled texts and guided reading

(04:10):
and really rich readersworkshops and writers workshops
and we did have a verysystematic phonics program that
we were very adherent towardsand we did tons of progress
monitoring in phonics and Ialways was like, oh, my kids are
doing great.
They're all scoring so high onreading, read aloud tests and
comprehension.
They're scoring so high intheir phonics tests.

(04:32):
They're making progress andmost for the most part and
guided reading.
But I thought it was prettystrange because it didn't
actually seem like any of theseskills were coming together for
a lot of kids.
There were some kids that theycould just do anything you put
in front of them and there wasanother group where I just
couldn't understand it.
I would be, I would be watchingthem read and be like, what are

(04:54):
you doing?
Like didn't we just learn stufflike this in phonics?
Or I would try to sound out aword with them and I would say,
oh, no idea what that word'sdoing, Don't listen to me,
because that sounding out didn'tmake sense.
And honestly I just kind ofshrugged my shoulders and
thought, ok, well, I just don'tknow enough or I'm missing

(05:14):
something.
But nobody around me knows whatthat is, so it must just be
that this is how it goes andeventually these kids will be OK
.
And then I was simultaneouslygetting a master's degree where
there was basically noinformation about phonics
teaching.
And then I got to grad schoolat the University of Michigan

(05:34):
and in my first semester I wasdoing, I was the teacher's
assistant for the introductorymethods to early literacy course
and within the first month mymind was blown.
Being the TA this class, Iwasn't even supposed to be a
student, but I was so shocked bythe amount of information that

(05:54):
I had never gotten to receivebecause of my particular
trajectory.
But also I was in a school withtons of professional
development and this just wasn'tthe topic that people were
talking about at the time forthe most part.
So we get into this class andI'm like phonemic awareness,
what is this?

(06:15):
And I did make some calls backto students' parents who I had
heard never blending wordstogether in kindergarten or
first grade, and I said oh mygosh, have I got some news for
you?
You need to try these things athome, because I knew that they
might never get access to thisinformation otherwise.
And then I was simultaneouslyworking on a project with the

(06:35):
Boston Public Schools and nowDuke as well where they had come
to us and said we have thisweird issue where we have kids
doing really well in phonics anddoing kind of OK and guided
reading, but we don't reallythink they're reading because we
don't see them using phonicsever.
And that to me, was a huge lightbulb moment because I realized
that my experience as a earlycareer teacher who had taken an

(06:59):
alternative route was not myfault and was also very
pervasive and that actually alot of teachers and a lot of
really experienced educators andwhole systems were experiencing
the same problem, which is thislike extreme disconnect between
how we were trying to teachkids to handle our English

(07:20):
spelling system and how we weretrying to teach kids how to read
words in a text.
And so I started kind of pokingaround at different things and
came across some very oldresearch on decodable texts and
I was.
I was like this is it?
This is so cool, like what ifthis is the thing?
And I got to be honest with you, almost everybody around me at

(07:43):
the university was like EW.

Melissa (07:49):
What are you talking about?

Julia Lindsey (07:51):
Like they were like no, I don't think you
understand what these are Like.
This is not the thing.
Like you're missing somethinghere, and I was like, no, no, no
, no, no.
I really think that we couldwrite better ones.
And obviously I had mentors whobelieved in that as well and
wanted to see where I'm not sureexactly who was like, okay,
yeah, I'll see what you'retalking about.

(08:12):
But people were and obviously,as I mentioned, dell was very
supportive and Boston BrookeChilds, the director of early
literacy.
They was like, okay, like I'minterested in what you're
talking about, and so thatopened up this path to thinking
about what would it mean tocreate decodable texts that are
better and then that that deeper, for years and years thinking

(08:32):
about what does it really meanto actually teach kids this
beautiful messed up logic of theEnglish system and how can we
actually give kids theopportunity to apply that
knowledge and to practice thatknowledge in ways that are going
to skyrocket their abilitiesand their confidence and their
potential love for reading?

(08:53):
Because we're putting in frontof them a task that they can't
handle and that they can grab ahold of, and we're not
withholding meaning either.
So that kind of sent me downthis path of being kind of a
decodable obsessed and gettingvery excited also about all the
elements that go into why youwould need a decodable, so all
the elements of decoding.
And that is where it led me tothis book and why the book

(09:18):
subtitle is reliable, researchbased routines for developing
decoding skills, and the wholebook is kind of about this idea
around decoding and trying toget people at least a tiny bit
as excited as I am about reallythinking about the meaningful,
beautiful experience of gettinga kid to be a strong decoder to

(09:40):
serve the rest of their readingjourney and to get them to the
real place that we want them,which is that deep meaning
making.

Melissa (09:50):
Julie, I'm wondering really quickly, before we get
into your book, if you could.
Even you might not know this,but I'm wondering, like why so
many people had that reactionwhen you said like they were
like Ew decodable text, becauseI'm sure there are a lot of
people out there that still havethat reaction.
So just curious if you know thethe reasons why.

Julia Lindsey (10:11):
Yeah, I do.
I think I know a lot of peoplehave said to me, even
subsequently, that I reallychanged their mind about
decodables Because theyinitially perceived them as
these like meaningless, likejust Feel like, just like random
words on a page that serve nopurpose, that made no sense to

(10:31):
kids, that were devoid of all ofthe other aspects of reading
that we think are important andthat were exclusively wrote
phonics practice, which isSomething that I think people
feel really worried aboutaccidentally going so far and
becoming a Situation where kidsare like phonics robots.
So which is very valid to beworried about that.

(10:53):
But I think a lot of peoplehave had negative experiences,
especially those who have beenteaching a while with decodable
texts.
The, the ones that are 100%decodable and and are designed
for kids who only know likeconsonant-valconsent words and
are were written in the 90s, areNot always Making tons of sense

(11:17):
, thinking of some.
So, yeah, yeah, so thatpreconceived notion is strong
and makes and makes folks folksvery rationally worried about
the implications of puttingbooks like that in front of
their kids.

Lori (11:31):
So yeah, that's such a good point and I feel like
everyone out there probably hashas that image in their head of
like, oh, I know what you'retalking about with the zip, zap,
zap, decodable book, yeah, orsomething, and then you're also
trying to, you know, have kidsread it and sometimes it's all.
I feel like the wholeexperience could be

(11:52):
misunderstood.
You know, in terms of what thepurpose is and I know you talked
about that the last time youwere on the podcast the purpose
of the decodable book, and wecan talk about that a little bit
later if you want to, when wetalk about your book.
But I think that that that awhole time and that whole
experience of decodables couldbe misinterpreted if the Way

(12:16):
that you are describing it likethe old way or a way that maybe
wasn't the most effective way Isin our minds.
So I just wanted to throw thatout there.
But I'm so glad that you sharedwhy you wrote this book and how
you got on the journey to it,because I think it's a really
cool story.

Julia Lindsey (12:35):
Yes, thank you.
Yeah, it's, it was.
I thought it was a fun story tolive.
I always fun to share as well?

Lori (12:43):
Did you get your masters in, by the way?
I was thinking about that.

Julia Lindsey (12:46):
Um, it was in just childhood education.
It was like a first throughsixth start, so okay, yeah, wow.
All right.

Lori (12:56):
So could you share a little bit with us what the book
is and what it isn't, because Iknow it has Did the word
decoding in the title, so it'sfor developing decoding skills,
but I'm hoping that you canelaborate for us.

Julia Lindsey (13:11):
Yes.
So this book is very purposefuland Hopefully it is purposeful
and when you read it, not onlyin terms of what I chose to
include and not include, butalso purposeful in what I'm
telling folks to consider whenthey're choosing what to include
and not include in theirinstruction as well, and to

(13:31):
always orient back to theirpurpose for teaching.
So if you think of a book as askind of a teacher or coach,
what was my purpose in inwriting this and in hoping to to
help and teaching coach othereducators with is really around
foundational reading skills, andthose are Are not actually just

(13:52):
one thing that's something Idive into in the beginning of
the book is that we actuallydon't even have a definition
that is shared among allresearchers or all, all, all
organizations About whatfoundational skills for reading
are.
So the book is really around aCouple foundational reading

(14:13):
skills.
We could have, you know,all-day long arguments about
what the full breadth offoundational skills is, but
about those skills that areabsolutely required for you to
make sense of our written systemand To give children access to
the ability to pick up a bookand do anything with the words
on a page, and so that thatstarts even with oral language

(14:35):
and print concepts and thentakes us all the way through
Multisyllabic word reading.
So really thinking about whatis it that we can do in In our
routines as classroom teachersto actually support kids in
developing these skills, why arethese skills important and
where are they leading ustowards, and also how can we do

(14:55):
this in the most efficient andeffective way possible.
So I am very much a Beans meansto the end person.
The foundational skills arethings that I know one who is a
fluent reader even thinks about.
They are below our consciousrecognition, and that is super
awesome because we can devoteall of our energy to other stuff

(15:16):
, like making sense of somethingor crafting a beautiful piece
of writing, and so our goal andfoundational skills instruction
should always be to try to beEfficient and effective in how
we're teaching so that kids canspend more time doing the much
harder task of making meaning.
And the way that we'reefficient and effective is by

(15:36):
leaning into these researchbased routines that we know
about and leaning intoUnderstanding why we're doing
something.
So the book does not go into alot about Comprehension.
It doesn't go into a lot aboutwriting.
It doesn't even get into thatmuch about fluency, because I
was really trying to constrainmyself, to be able to go a
little bit deeper and to be alittle bit more specific and

(15:58):
Purposeful around decoding.
Just like if you have tenminutes and you know that you
need a child to be able to blenda three-letter word at the end
of those ten minutes, you're notgoing to spend that ten minutes
talking about the meaning ofthe word toad.
You're going to spend thosethree minutes doing some sort of
routines to support blendingand then to support the blending

(16:19):
with letters as well.
So really thinking about themost purposeful uses of our time
and the way that we can usethat to the ends of getting kids
these skills and then beingable to move on.

Melissa (16:30):
Yeah, I think that's so important and I was just.
I was looking at your forwardby Nell Duke, which is awesome.
She said that you know this,this book is highly accessible
and Really practical, and Itotally agree with that and I
was thinking, well, like gosh,if you try to address every part
of Reading which is so complex,I mean we wouldn't have this

(16:52):
like short, accessible bookthat's really helpful for one
part of reading.
It would be a million pages andWould no longer be a friendly,
friendly book to pick up, and Ithink you said this to Julie is
like we can't expect every bookabout reading to cover every
part and we shouldn't right likeevery or any, not just a book,

(17:14):
but articles, podcasts,everything.
Right like we have to look atthe different parts and then put
them together Because readingis just very complex and so yes,
absolutely.

Julia Lindsey (17:24):
And also, you know, I spent the past five
years, and some people havespent the last 30 years,
exclusively thinking aboutfoundational skills and so, to
think about Like what it is thatSomeone in this space can tell
you, someone else might havespent the past 15 years, 30

(17:45):
years, talking, thinking aboutcomprehension, and I think that
you should go to them to learnabout comprehension.
I think comprehension isamazing and complex and so
critical, but I am not, and Iprobably know, more than you
know.
Well, I certainly know morethan my dog, for example.
I know somebody about it but Ithink that you know to we we

(18:09):
have to like be able to consumelots of people's thoughts and
lots of research from differentarenas to really get the full
picture of reading.
And that is why reading is kindof a rocket science is because
we actually, you know, needpeople with the deep XRT's and
these things that seem kind ofsmall but are actually such a
massive part of the puzzle.

(18:30):
And then, educators, we need toput those pieces together to
make the full picture for thestudents in front of us.

Lori (18:36):
I Think it might be a really good time to share about
the title.
What do you think what you justsaid made me think.
Oh, we should name why ordiscuss, yes, why.
You called it reading above thefray.

Julia Lindsey (18:51):
Yeah, absolutely Absolutely.
So I think that many of us haveexperienced in the last couple
of years that there has been anincrease in conversations in
popular media conversations innewspapers, conversations on
Facebook, conversations onTwitter, in our school board

(19:12):
meetings, in our own classroomsand coaching, conversations on
podcasts.
Basically, wherever we turn, ifwe're really in this reading
world, we see very fiercediscussions about what is the
right way to teach reading andparticularly what is the right
way to teach early reading andhow do we get kids to become

(19:33):
readers, and we've seen splashynews clippings and research
findings all over about the hugepercentage of children that are
really struggling to keep upwith this and differing opinions
about what does that mean orhow do we fix this or what's
next, and I think that it's beencritical it's been really

(19:54):
critical for us to engage inthat kind of discussion and for
everybody to understand thatthis is a massive undertaking
and that we are, in some ways,not meeting the needs of a lot
of kids right now.
But it's also reallycomplicated to try to sift
through what that all means, andit's a lot of noise and it's a

(20:17):
lot of opinions and it's a lotof very strong feelings which
don't always come across as kindand don't always come across as
helpful.
So my hope in writing this bookwas to offer some very clear
outlines and explanationsdirectly from research.

(20:40):
I essentially took everything Ilearned in grad school about
decoding and I put it into abook, and that included a lot of
experiences with classroomteachers, with district leaders,
with doing my own researchmyself, supporting other
researchers with curriculumwriting, et cetera.
So it wasn't just me readingarticles in isolation, but in

(21:03):
truly being in practice in a lotof settings and I essentially
got together as much research asI could find about some of
these topics and about theinstructional implications of
this research and presented whatI could about how we could
teach these skills better andunderstand these skills better.
So everything in the book,every routine that I present

(21:24):
unless otherwise I say forexample, there's one that I say
like this is from a reallyawesome teacher who listened to
some things and came up withthis cool idea Everything is
research-based and almost all ofthe routines are not only
research-based but they'veactually been tested in research
before.
So I really wanted to helpfolks kind of see behind the

(21:44):
curtain and beyond the noise ofall of these reading wars, to
feel like they had clarity inwhat was going on.
So that's what reading aboutthe Frey means.
It means we know that there isgreat controversy about how to
teach early reading.
Right now.
Let's rise above that and talkabout what we actually know from
research, and some of that isnot going to feel like it fits

(22:08):
neatly in a particular camp, andthat's kind of how research
goes.
It tells us the truth about acertain question that we ask,
even if that doesn't match ourhypothesis.
So presenting the research andtrying to say you don't need to
live down in the noisy spot,especially if that doesn't serve
you, we can all kind of leaninto research specifically and

(22:32):
learn from that instead.

Melissa (22:34):
So I was just going to say what I love about your book
is exactly what you say.
I felt everything was based in.
You know, I could see researchon everything.
And then you even gave ideasfor, like, if you want to learn
more about this, here you go,like here's where to go look for
more.
But at the same time, it was sopractical, right.
I was like if I was in theclassroom right now, this would
give me so many ideas of what toactually do, which you know.

(22:56):
Sometimes you read researcharticles and you're like OK, I
don't know what this means formy classroom.
That's not helpful.
So I'm wondering can you talkthrough, just like, give you
like an overview of thestructure of the book, like how
you?
I'm sure that was allpurposeful what I just said,
right?
So how did you structure thebook and what did you want

(23:16):
people to take away from it?

Julia Lindsey (23:19):
Yeah, so the book is structured again around the
foundational skills and thedefinition that I use to talk
about.
What I mean by foundationalskills because, as I said,
there's multiple definitions iswhat are the things that we have
to add together that will leadus to being able to decode, or
the elements of decoding is whatI call them in the book.

(23:40):
I did want to make them intopizza ingredients, but I think
that idea got shut down prettyearly in the process, but it
would have been more fun.

Lori (23:50):
You could go right here if you want to.

Julia Lindsey (23:54):
I don't know if I can.
Can I think off the cuff thatfast?
We'll see.
So the first couple chaptersare really an orientation
towards why foundational skills?
Why decoding?
Why am I so passionate aboutdecoding?
I feel like probably I soundlike a broken record, but
decoding is cool and we shouldsee it that way.

(24:16):
So I talk about kind of why I'mbeing so obsessive, and then
the next couple of chapters areorganized as the elements that
go into decoding, specificallysingle syllable words, and in
each of those chapters I talkabout why that element is
important, for example, whyalphabet knowledge, and I talk
about the principles of greatinstruction, drawing really

(24:38):
deeply on research to informthat.
And then I give one essentialswap that you can make in your
classroom.
Depending on the swap, some ofthem are things you can
literally do tomorrow and I dotry to call that out when it's
possible and some are things youwould have to think a little
bit more about.
But I try to give exactexamples of why this is really

(25:00):
essential, why it will move yourpractice forward immensely, how
it's deeply research based,along with some routines and
suggestions there as well.
So an example of that would bein the alphabet knowledge, the
swap is teach like a hare, not atortoise, because we know from
research that teaching thealphabet faster and this holds

(25:20):
in PK, but is most essential forkindergarten is actually better
, not only for the highestachievers in your classroom and
those coming in with alphabeticknowledge, but actually,
fascinatingly, we have researchthat shows that faster alphabet
instruction is better for thosekids who come in with less
knowledge, which is a superexciting finding because it

(25:42):
really gives us confidence tosay okay, you should be
efficient about this and getthrough these letters.
And then, after those chapters,I go into a chapter about how to
use all these elements togetherto decode, and this chapter is
one of my favorites.
I would say it's reallycritical to me because we often
see decoding as kind of theoutcome of knowing a lot of

(26:05):
phonics and recently, becausethere's been a lot of emphasis
on phonemic awareness, we mightsee it as the outcome of
phonemic awareness plus alphabet, plus phonics.
But I argue that we shouldactually be much more
intentional about teachingdecoding.
And so in this chapter I talkabout what would it even mean to
teach decoding and what doesthis look like?

(26:26):
And so in that chapter I give acouple of extra swaps to talk,
to take you through what itwould really look like to be
teaching decoding in yourclassroom.
The next chapter that I get intois adding decoding to
multisyllabic words.
So I talk through how you cansupport kids in accessing
syllable types and morphology toread multisyllabic words.

(26:50):
This is something we need to bethinking about in early grades
because we're setting them upfor that long-term success when
they're encountering almostexclusively multisyllabic words
once you're in third grade andreading lots of big books.
And then I end with a veryshort chapter on fluency, to
make sure we're always angledtowards some of the end goals.

(27:10):
Foundational skills are notjust decoding words in isolation
, but obviously reading textfluently and, as Melissa said,
lots of nods towards otherresources and places that you
can go for people who are waymore better positioned than I am
to tell you how to achieve thisin your classroom around
comprehension, oral language andvocabulary and fluency as well.

Lori (27:35):
Love it.
I'm making a note that chaptereight is your favorite.
I just think that I'm going togo back and read it again.

Julia Lindsey (27:41):
Chapter two and chapter eight are my favorite.

Melissa (27:45):
And there's other ones that are about decoding.

Julia Lindsey (27:48):
So there you go.
I love that.

Melissa (27:51):
But before we get too deep into because I know I want
to talk about a lot of the swaps, I think we all want to talk
about the swaps, but I just wemay have already said this, so
just tell me if we did but like,why is that?
Why is decoding so important?
I know you're like a big superfan, but I just want to make
sure our listeners like reallyhear the like why.

Julia Lindsey (28:12):
Okay.
So the first thing I'll justsay quickly is like, what is
decoding?
So decoding is using everythingwe know about sounds and
spelling relationships andapplying that to an individual
word so that you can say thatword aloud or in your head, if
you're further along in yourreading journey, and match that
word to an oral representationthat you have of a word.

(28:35):
So if you know the alphabet,and you know the major alphabet,
sounds and short vowels, andyou see the letters C-A-T on a
page, being able to say at catand then being able to match
that cat that's a word I knowand being able then to match
that to a meeting is obviouslypart of the process of really

(28:57):
being able to read, as knowingwhat that means as well.
So decoding is so criticalbecause otherwise these letters,
they don't mean anything toanybody.
So we really don't have anyother route to making sense of
words on a page other thanrelying on letters.

(29:18):
We can rely on guessing, we canrely on some other mechanisms
like analogies and that sort ofthing to guess at words.
However, we don't have anyother way that is the most
guaranteed to be effective andto also be pretty efficient if
we're doing it well, to figureout what a word is on the page

(29:40):
in front of us and then to beable to move on and read the
rest of a sentence.
So decoding is really coolbecause it gives you access and
ability to read words on a page.
And I also think that's supercool because it's, as you might
notice, in the language I'musing.
It's giving it to you, so it'sgiving the reader that
independent ability.

(30:00):
There is no need to rely on ateacher if you can decode a word
.
There is no need to rely on apicture, there's no need to rely
on prior knowledge, so you'reactually just relying on the
exact information that you haveabout sounds and spellings and,
again, about blending andsegmenting and rolling that all
together to be able to say theword on the page.
Decoding is also super coolbecause, yep, in the short term

(30:24):
that immediate it lets you readthe word.
In the long term, when you'veseen that word repeated over
again or if you've seen similarpatterns and similar words, it
creates a huge schema andrepresentation for you so that
you can navigate more and morewords, so that you can engage in
a mechanism of self-teachingwhere you're learning more and

(30:45):
more and more about Englishorthography, our spelling system
, and about words, so you'reable to encounter new words
quicker and get through themeasier.
Decoding also, in the long term, helps us build orthographic
maps, which are a pretty hottopic.
Essentially, think about atriangle where you understand
the words pronunciation,spelling and meaning and by

(31:08):
seeing a word multiple times anddecoding it, you're building
this map in your brain of whatthat word is so that you can see
it and read it automatically inthe future.
So all of these things togetherare about how decoding is the
mechanism to getting kids to beautomatic readers.
Yes, it is theoreticallypossible to get to automatic

(31:29):
reading without decoding.
However, not for everybody it'snot.
And, more importantly, it'sfaster and more effective to go
through decoding.
So I know sometimes we thinkback on our own teaching
experiences or those of us stillin the classroom and we're like
, well, yeah, but I've got allthese kids who've seen fine, and
I've never even heard themreally sound out of word.

(31:50):
Yep, there are some kids andsome humans who we think just
kind of like have a an abilityto suss out these kind of
patterns and language withouttoo much support.
But if we want to support allof the kids in our classroom.
This is the route, and if wewant to support those kids who
seem to be getting it on theirown and being more effective,

(32:11):
this is also the route.
So I think decoding is supercool because it unlocks this
individual, internal ability toaccess all aspects of our
written language, bothimmediately and in the long term
.

Lori (32:25):
Yeah, I think it's so cool that it doesn't even take that
long.
I'm looking at your book.
It does not.
I'm on page 44 and I'vehighlighted in pink Are we
talking about the first swap?
We're talking about the firstswap and I'm trying to
transition seamlessly thatresearchers found the most
impactful phonemic awarenesstraining for less than 20 hours
total across a school year orintervention.

Melissa (32:48):
That seems manageable, you know I mean again and I also
think like you think peoplethink more is better.
Right, Like if this is soimportant and so critical, let's
do it all day until they get it.

Lori (33:02):
And I know, julia, you have some recommendations about
like the time frame and theinstructional moments and what
that might look like during theday.
So I'm wondering if you mightbe able to share with us a
little bit about swaps like whatthey are, because we just kind
of dove in I was trying toseamlessly transition us here
Share a little bit about theessential instructional swap,

(33:24):
which I love this this is my,these are my favorite pages in
the book and then also a littlebit about, so this first swap
here.
So give us the example on page44, which is less foundational
skills, overload, more languageand reading, rich instruction,
and then maybe we can talkthrough some of that schedule
like what it might look like,because that's always a question

(33:47):
that everyone has on theirminds, from, like, classroom
teacher to, I think, schoolboard you know, educator or
school board leader.

Julia Lindsey (33:58):
Yes, yes, absolutely.
This swap is so criticalbecause this is a book about
foundational skills, but Iwanted to make it very clear
that I am not talking aboutfoundational skills overload.
I'm talking about a reasonableamount of foundational skills to
the end of getting kids toproficiency, and research does

(34:20):
not suggest to us that that'sgoing to take all day every day
for three years.
That's just not what theevidence tells us.
So it's really important tokeep that in mind when we're
thinking about how we'reinfusing this into our schedule.
That does mean that when we areengaged in foundational skills,
we have to be choosingeffective ways of engaging in it

(34:41):
.
Or maybe it will take all dayevery day for years and years,
because it's kind of like a youcan't do either, or it's it
can't be efficient but noteffective.
It's got to be efficient andeffective.
So fast and good at the sametime is the only way that you're
really going to be able toachieve these goals.
So, yes, there is researchabout like phonemic awareness.

(35:05):
Trainings do not need to takethat much time.
I think it's about maybe 10minutes a day.
Is if you, if you divide that20 hours out in a school year.
Another finding that a goodfriend of mine just reminded me
about a couple of days ago in aLinnea Airee piece from a few
years ago, was that it was theyhad taught kids who knew that at

(35:28):
least 10, 13 letters and thesome phonemic awareness.
They taught them how to blendand segment CBC words in 20
minutes, 20, and then that wasit and that's.
They saw impacts of that.
So, thinking about like howmuch kids need input into and

(35:48):
then to learn a something, andthen yep, those kids are going
to need more practice.
I don't think they're going toremember that exact skill for,
like you know, 20 years.
But knowing that that actualinstruction is maybe not going
to take tons and tons and tonsof time and that our real goal
and a lot of the foundationalskills instruction should be
giving kids access to theseskills in a super explicit way

(36:12):
and then really strategicallycreating practice opportunities
for them that, again, are stillfast and still effective, based
on research, so that they cancontinue to grow those skills
every time.
And that leaves you a lot ofother time to do.
Read alouds and other smallgroup instructional types,
writing instruction, all ofthese other wonderful things

(36:34):
that literacy teachers do, and,for many of you, all of the
other things that you do forscience and social studies and
math and all that sort ofwonderful aspects of the day as
well.
So there is a schedule on page45, but it's not really a
schedule.
It's more of a nod towards allthe things that you're probably
doing in your day and the timethat those things might be

(36:56):
taking you and a way to talkabout how these are all kind of
interconnected.
And in the online website forthe book there's an additional
table that sort of is similar tothe one on 45, but it indicates
how you might infuse a littlebit of foundational skills into

(37:17):
some of these other times of day.
For example, maybe you have a30 minute read aloud every day
that is focused on deepcomprehension work, as it should
be, but maybe every so oftenyou use your read aloud to have
a minute of infusion of printconcepts.
Or maybe you have 40 minutes ofwriting every day.

(37:38):
I mean, God bless if you do.
That's beautiful and you'reengaging kids and really
thinking about creating writer'scraft or in all sorts of other
great things that you might beworking on.
But you are able to alsosupport spelling via the sound
spelling relationships you'vebeen teaching systematically in
phonics during your check-ins ina writing time.

(37:58):
So knowing that foundationalskills can flow throughout your
day and doesn't need to takeaway from those really deep,
meaning-making experiences thatyou've crafted for your students
and that are necessary tocreate readers and not phonics
robots which phonics robotsounds scary, I wouldn't want to

(38:19):
go up against them in a fight,but I don't think that we need
those in the world.

Melissa (38:24):
I have to say Julia too .
I love that the updated versionalso includes math, science,
social studies.
It doesn't even just have to bea LA time where these can
continue.
This practice can continue,yeah, and before.

Lori (38:38):
Melissa transitions us because I know she's about to
ask another question.
I can see it on her face.
Can you say the website foreveryone listening for the book?
Do you know the website?

Julia Lindsey (38:50):
That would be cool if I could.

Melissa (38:52):
I think you have to have the book too.
Right, I have it, but you haveto have the book to get the
password.
Oh, you have to have the book.

Lori (38:58):
Ok, well, that's good.
So we can direct everybody tobuy the book and then go to the
website.

Melissa (39:04):
And then it's in the back front cover or the back
cover of the book.
Look inside.
Yeah, that's where the goal is.

Julia Lindsey (39:11):
Perfect.
I was going to say I don't know.
Thank you, I was going to saythat's so funny.

Lori (39:17):
OK, well, I didn't mean to ask you the easiest question
that you didn't know the answerto, but you're like what is your
coding?
No problem.
What's the website of your book, julia?

Melissa (39:27):
It's one of those secret ones, though, that you
have to have the book to getinto.
We'll post it in our newsletter.

Lori (39:31):
How about that?
We'll post it in our newsletterand everybody can sign up for
our newsletter and then haveaccess to your website.

Melissa (39:38):
They still got to get the book.

Lori (39:40):
Of course they'll buy the book after this for sure.

Melissa (39:42):
You got to have the book to get the password.

Lori (39:44):
Yeah, because everybody I feel like this is a big question
, that we get emailed all thetime Like, well, what does this
effective schedule look like?
How can I do all of this andfit all of this in?
So I love that you tackled thatwith some key thoughts and
instructional moves.
Thanks for doing that.

Julia Lindsey (40:03):
Well, I hope it's helpful.
But yes, we all have our ownideas about schedule, don't we?
So you'll have to adjust it andmake it your own.

Melissa (40:10):
For sure.

Julia Lindsey (40:10):
Especially principal.

Melissa (40:12):
It's a guideline right, all right, so I'm switching to
the next swap.
Are we ready?
Go ahead?
Are we going?

Julia Lindsey (40:19):
all through, all of them.

Melissa (40:20):
No, we just picked out a few.
We have a couple.

Lori (40:23):
Oh, we like.
We have a favorite swap list.

Julia Lindsey (40:28):
Love it.

Melissa (40:29):
But I did want to talk about the one on page 73, which
is around phonemic awareness,Just because I think I think for
some people phonemic awarenessis kind of a newer, a newer
thing that, like you said, Ididn't even know what that was,
you know, before I went to gradschool.
So I just want to talk throughthat and, specifically, this is
fewer rhymes, more phonemes and,like you said, this can be

(40:52):
really short and quick, and so Ithink it's a really nice like
something that someone listeningto this podcast might be able
to take away and and incorporateinto their classroom.
So tell us about it.

Julia Lindsey (41:05):
Awesome.
So first I'll direct folks topages 18 and 19, as well as the
online resources for mydictionary of foundational
skills terms.
It will guide you through allof these definitions of the
terms I use in the book and alsoin our the terms that are used

(41:25):
in research.
So well for those of them thathave definitive definitions some
of them unfortunately do not,so just always go back to that
if something is not fresh or ifyou need an update about the
specific definition of something, because this is a hugely

(41:46):
confusing topic.
What is phonological awareness?
What is phonemic awareness?
How do they fit together?
What's going on here?
So broadly, phonologicalawareness is our ability to hear
and manipulate and generate anykind of sound in language,
including saying a whole word.
Knowing something is rhymingwith something, being able to

(42:07):
just kind of like operate in ouroral world, and a lot of those
skills do develop prettynaturally for many people.
But that doesn't mean that theydevelop naturally in the sense
that you might be able to rhymebut you might not and ever know
what the word rhyme means.
So we might think that kids arenot able to do something if we

(42:31):
are asking them rhyme with theword cat versus if we say let's
play a game Like one of myfavorites.
You know, we're going on acamping trip and everybody's
going to bring something thatrhymes with sat and then playing
games like that where we're,we're modeling and we're helping
everyone along the way.
So there is just a differencethere, just in terms of what

(42:55):
we're asking of kids, justalways remembering that is
particularly important in someof these oral language skills.
But even though I just mentionedrhymes, unfortunately the sad
news about phonologicalawareness is that it doesn't
actually seem to impact readingas much as we thought it did.

(43:15):
What really impacts reading isa subset of phonological
awareness called phonemicawareness, which is our ability
to hear and manipulate theindividual sounds in a word.
So being able to say dog startswith D, and if I change the D
to a, b, it would be bog, that'sdemonstrating phonemic
awareness.

(43:35):
I was able to hear, isolate,generate and manipulate or
change the sounds in a word, andthat would be, you know, the
highest levels of phonemicawareness, obviously.
So those are what really matterfor reading, and it's makes
sense, because if you can't saythat there's a D sound at the
front of a word, then how areyou going to figure out that the

(43:55):
letter D should spell that, orhow are you going to figure out
that when you're looking at theD, that's the sound that you
could should say.
So phonemic awareness is reallycritical in letting us decode
words sound by sound, letter byletter, spelling pattern by
spelling pattern.
So that's what we're going todo.
So in the book I talk about morephonemes, fewer rhymes, and

(44:16):
this is true even inkindergarten, and you can, even
if you're teaching pre-K.
You should even think aboutthis in pre-K, which is that we
do have research that shows thatkids can engage in phonemic
awareness training as young asthree and that we do understand
that from research.
Right now, we don't think thatyou have to have all of the

(44:37):
other phonological awarenessskills before you engage in
phonemic awareness so we cancome out the gate in
kindergarten starting with this.
We might realize that forcertain kids we need to
backtrack, but for most kids wecan come out the gate practicing
these skills in order to getkids to blending and segmenting.
So in the book I give oneexample routine that's very

(45:00):
straightforward.
It's essentially you tell thekids exactly what you're gonna
do.
You do an explicit teach ofphonemic awareness.
You model something, you do ittogether.
I do, we do, you do, and thenthe students practice it, and
then you close, and so it mightbe something that you add on to
the front of a phonics lesson.
Say you're teaching the letter D, I'm now using the letter D for

(45:23):
a lot of examples of this.
You might start your lesson bysaying okay, I'm going to show
you how to isolate the firstsound in a word and we're gonna
focus on words that start withda, and then you might model
that for students and then havethem practice listening to you
say words and saying what thatfirst sound is, and that might
be how you begin a small grouplesson or a whole group lesson

(45:46):
around and again the letter D,and that allows you to then
directly connect the letter tothat sound.
We do need some phonemicawareness practice in isolation,
but another big but aroundphonemic awareness is that we
actually know from research andwe've known this for over 20
years that the most importantphonemic awareness work is

(46:07):
happening with letters.
So once we can get kids in aposition where they're able to
handle letters and sounds at thesame time, we should be
emphasizing that, not to say weshouldn't do any oral only, but
that we should definitely becoupling those things together
to get the most bang for ourbuck in terms of impacting
reading and spelling.

Melissa (46:28):
Can I ask you a selfish question real quick?
I have a three-year-old and Idon't know what I'm doing at
this level to teach athree-year-old.
But we often play a game wherewe just name all the words that
start with a similar sound.
We'll just say, like whatstarts with ss, and we'll just
start naming things right Likesnakes, and we just name things

(46:51):
and we're like is that evenhelpful?
I'm really curious.

Julia Lindsey (46:55):
Yeah, no, that's what I'm thinking is great.
And yeah, being able to like,match and group and sort sounds
and words together is a helpfulphonemic awareness strategy,
especially when you're isolatingdown to that first sound, and
that's a great example of thetype of activity that could feel
as joyful as a lot of rhymingactivities that we love to do in
early childhood.

(47:15):
That's actually a lot morepurposeful because it's getting
us towards a skill that's muchcloser to real reading and
writing than rhyming is.

Melissa (47:24):
Oh good, ok, we just do it for fun.
But I was like I wonder if thisis helpful.

Julia Lindsey (47:32):
Well, learning to read should be fun.

Lori (47:34):
So I love that.
I'm wondering if you can sharea little bit about Alconan boxes
, which you also named as botheffective and efficient routines
for this.
Can you share a little bitabout why they're effective?

Julia Lindsey (47:50):
Yes.
So Alconan boxes or sound boxesif you've heard that term word
boxes, letter boxes there's allsorts of things that people use
to call them are essentiallywhen you have a number of boxes
for the number of sounds in aword, and so you can use a toy
car, or you can use letters, oryou can use tiles and you fill

(48:12):
in those boxes, as you say,certain sounds.
So these are.
This strategy of using those tobe able to say individual
phonemes has been used inresearch for a very long time.
The original study was from the1960s and so, unfortunately, a
lot of research does notnecessarily get us to a specific

(48:36):
instructional strategy.
A lot of times research is at ahigher level than that.
So we have to make somestrategic decisions about what
the research really means forwhat we should do
instructionally.
But what I think is cool aboutsome of the research on this
strategy is that we actuallyhave done studies about this
specific strategy for phonemicawareness, so we can feel pretty

(48:58):
confident in saying, ok, thisis a good idea and what it does
is that it helps kids be able tohave an additional modality for
interacting with a veryabstract concept.
So listening for phonemes withyour eyes closed, for example,
is really abstract.
That is about as abstract asyou can get versus saying, ok,

(49:22):
we're going to drive a caracross the sound, say the first
sound as we drive across thefirst box.
So and then being able to dragthat car across is really a
supportive way to help kids beable to identify how many sounds
are, in a word, be able toisolate individual sounds and be
able to practice that action ofblending and segmenting as well

(49:43):
.
So I definitely suggest them.
It's also pretty easy to get amatch that's even laminated or
something with the three boxeson it, and it's also engaging to
have kids get to choose, likemaybe you have some game pieces
in your costume and they canchoose which ones they want to
use to be able to isolate thosesounds.

(50:05):
So it's a strategy that can bereally fun as well.
Yeah, I love it.

Melissa (50:10):
Lots of options.

Lori (50:11):
Yeah, and I just want to confirm.
It's for the number of sounds,in a word.
So the number of boxes woulddepend on the number of sounds.
If I were the teacher I mighthave to use have like a mat with
two boxes and three boxes andfour boxes, right?

Julia Lindsey (50:27):
Yeah, and that's a great point is that we do want
to emphasize that kids shouldbe pointing to a box for a sound
, not a letter, because we knowa lot of spellings that
represent one sound are actuallymore than one letter.
So, for example, if you'reworking with digraphs and you're
trying to have a child say theword ship, you would still only
have three boxes because that SHis representing one sound.

(50:49):
And the cool thing aboutElcunin boxes as well is if you
have ones that are, say, on awhiteboard, you can use a token
first, or a car or whatever youwant to do that oral-only
practice, and then you can havekids represent with letters,
either by writing or by usingletter tiles, in order to really
support that understanding oflike, wow, ok, we're doing this
oral thing.

(51:09):
I'm translating this as thefamous book Speech to Print, and
now here I am printing thisthing and I understand that
these mechanisms all worktogether and I can actually use
the same strategies of blendingin all these situations, and
then you've got a decoder.

Lori (51:26):
Can I ask a really nuanced question?
Around the boxes, you're likeLori, stop talking about the
boxes.
So I'm noticing that they'reall squares, like perfect
squares.
I've seen on social media, I'veseen in classrooms, boxes be
used that mimic the shape of theletters.

(51:47):
Can you talk about why theseConan boxes are specifically
squares and why we're not goingto give, like the letter, shapes
to help students?

Julia Lindsey (51:59):
I think I know what your question is, but you
let me know if I'm going in thewrong direction.
So there was a theory that I'mnot entirely sure where this
came from, but I'm assuming itcame out of some movements in
the 1970s around how werecognize words, and this theory
postulated that we recognizewords as just like this whole
thing, almost like when you seean iPhone and you're like that's

(52:24):
an iPhone, you don't need to.
You don't see each individualpart, you don't see the camera
and the well, there's like nobuttons left on these things,
but you don't see pieces andthink, oh, these pieces equal
holes.
There's this theory that one ofthe way that the way we process
words, is that we kind ofmemorize the holes, and out of
that came this creation ofsaying, okay, well, if we

(52:47):
outline the letters, then we canhave kids kind of memorize the
shape.
That is not how reading works.
Let's let me just be blatantlyclear about that.
That's just not how readingworks.
We actually know for sure atthis point in time, because of
MRI studies and verysophisticated eye tracking, that

(53:08):
in order to read a word, evenyou, who I am assuming are a
highly literate, engaged reader,actually do look at every
single letter in a word, and sowe also know that kids need to
do that as well, and that inorder to get them into a space
where they're decoding andtherefore the route of the most
efficient and effective wordrecognition is by drawing their

(53:30):
attention to real letters.
Not to shapes and not toabstract formations, but drawing
their attention to letters, howto use those letters to map
onto sounds and then how toblend those or segment them to
read or spell.

Lori (53:46):
Thank you, that's super helpful.
And, yes, you did get the gistof what I was asking.
I didn't want like a, is thisbad to do?
Is this good to do?
I didn't want that to come fromme.
I wanted it to come from youbecause you're a much more
reliable source than I am.

Julia Lindsey (54:00):
Well, I don't know about that.
You guys have learned, I'm sure, like learned quite a bit over
this wonderful podcast.

Melissa (54:06):
We have a lot to go.
We're still learning a lot,yeah don't we all?

Julia Lindsey (54:11):
isn't that?
The joy of all of this is thatwe all get to keep learning.

Lori (54:16):
Absolutely, and I also love that you talk about joy in
your book for students For sure.
Yes, I love that you dedicateda little section to that.

Melissa (54:25):
That was important, all right so there's like a
thousand more swaps that I wantto talk about.
But I want to skip ahead toyour favorite chapter, chapter
eight, Perfect, and I don't know.
If you want to try and maybeconnect the swaps in there, you
can tell us.
But I mean, one is just likesimply more decodable texts,
fewer non decodable texts.
But I also would love for youto touch on the independent

(54:48):
reading, the less lessunsupported independent reading
and more supported independentreading.
We actually get a ton ofquestions about independent
reading, I think more at allgrade levels, but it'd be
interesting to hear from likefrom you, about what should
independent reading really looklike at this time?

Julia Lindsey (55:06):
Awesome, yes, okay, so in terms of decodable
texts, I will, I.
It is my favorite topic, and soI'm sad to do this, but I will
encourage folks to listen to thelast episodes that I had come
on last year, because I do thinkwe get into that quite a bit.
The high level here tounderstand is to think about

(55:28):
everything that we've justtalked about about how word
recognition works.
You can rewind and listen to megab about what decoding is and
why I think it's so important,and to then think about okay, so
if you agree with that logicand that research based
understanding of how, how werecognize words, which I hope

(55:49):
that you're curious about andand willing to think about, if
that's that fits Then what wouldthat mean about the books that
we put in front of kids and thewords that we want them to
practice reading?
And so the logical kind ofconclusion of this is that we
would need to put words in frontof children that they're

(56:10):
actually able to decode.
And so if you're just like anyanything we practice, just like
getting bigger biceps, you can'tdo that if you are just doing
like one bicep curl and thengoing on a run.
So we want to give kids theaccess to knowing what a bicep

(56:31):
curl is, to knowing you knowwhat are sound, smelling
relationships, what is blending,what is segmenting, and then
I'm just going to go with thismetaphor and so we're going to
give them bicep curls to do andwork.
It sounds like, okay, this isgoing to get really repetitive,
but bicep curls are not the onlyway that you can support a

(56:52):
bicep.
So we have other ways that wecan support decoding, such as
like in strategic sharedreadings, where we have some
words that are decodable ininteractive, or we're supporting
supporting kids and spellingthese decodable words in
decodable texts that are 100%decodable for one day and then
up the next day it's 80%, andI'm right there to support you

(57:14):
with that 20% of words.
That is more about making surethat text is meaningful, but
we're giving kids that practiceto actually get into the act of
decoding, and I the and thenI'll say this that the major
fear on these books, like I'vetouched on at the beginning, is
that they are going to make kidshate reading, and I will say to
you unequivocally that that hasnot been my experience or the

(57:38):
experience of the educators thatI have previously supported and
using high quality decodabletexts.
It actually has shocked me.
I did think that that waspossible and then to actually
see it in action, it will changeyour mind.
Kids are excited and joyfulabout being able to read a word.
What an incredibleaccomplishment to go from

(58:01):
someone who's looking at theseweird symbols all over the place
to being able to make sense ofthat for yourself.
Read a word for yourself, reada sentence, read a book for
yourself and to say to yourselfI am a reader, I didn't have to
rely on my teacher, I didn'thave to rely on anything but
myself.
That act, that's the magic thatwe feel when we're teaching

(58:23):
readers.
The magic isn't because readingis mystical.
The magic is because we cangive kids access to this very
critical skill and that theydon't need to see it, all this
background of stuff that we'redoing.
They can feel that joy andmagic, but we know that we're
being extremely strategic inwhat we're doing and I have had

(58:43):
kids at places where I'vewritten decodables, literally
run up to me and say what'sgoing to happen next in this
decodable series?
They don't use the worddecodable, I'll just copy of
that but they're so excited toread decodables that they have
literally run up and been likethis has been my.
I'm so excited, I can't wait toread the next book and find out

(59:03):
what happens.
Or kids that are laughing outloud at decodable text.
So just don't take the label tomean something that is vile.
Take it and think about what itcould really mean for kids and
think about how you can also useyour professional knowledge to
find the highest quality onesthat are going to match your

(59:24):
students needs and interests.
So I'll say that aboutdecodable texts, and then
independent reading is your nextpart of the question.
So these do liaise with thatright.
So we, if we are supportingkids and in reading a lot of
decodable words that they haveare just learning in their sound

(59:46):
spelling relationships,obviously we should give them
the chance to practice thatindependently if they're ready
for it.
This is probably the mostcontroversial swap.
I would say it sounds.
It sounds, I think, probablyworse than it is.
So let's just contextualize it.
So this is a shocking finding,but there is research that tells

(01:00:09):
us that unstructured,unsupported independent reading
time is not impacting readingoutcomes in any measurable way
that we can see across studentpopulations like K 12.
So that's like really hard of apill to swallow, because I

(01:00:30):
think most of us think kidsdeserve time to read on their
own.
They deserve time to pick abook that they want to read and
have the opportunity to do that.
That is not what that researchis arguing against and that's
not what I'm arguing againsteither.
No one is saying kids shouldn'thave the chance to be curious
about books or to have thechance to explore books.

(01:00:52):
That's not what this researchis saying.
This research is saying that ifwe have instructional time that
we are dedicating to a specificthing and, for example, in this
case, if we have instructionaltime that we're trying to
dedicate to decoding and what wechoose to fill that with is an
activity of completelyunsupported meaning go grab a

(01:01:14):
book and go to the corner, kindof reading it's not going to get
us there.
So we need to think about whatagain is our purpose for
something?
If our purpose is I have somecenter time or stations or
whatever we like to call them,I'm going to pull a small group
and then one group is going tobe.
Maybe they're on a computer, ormaybe they're with an assistant

(01:01:35):
teacher, or maybe they'rewriting letters to the guests
who came to your classroom lastweek.
And then you have another groupthat you would normally say
independent reading, but youknow that that particular group
is at a stage where they needmore practice with decoding.
You might want to pick adifferent activity, and so in
the book I do offer some ideasof activities that are more

(01:01:58):
supportive of decoding than justfree for all.
And again, that's because whatis your purpose and how are you
best going to get there with theextraordinarily precious time
that we have in classrooms?
I do want to caveat this bysaying I am in no way indicating
that kids who are needing extrasupport and foundational skills

(01:02:19):
should never have theopportunity to find books that
interest them or to engage injust joyful reading experiences.
They deserve that always andthey need that too.
But just thinking about howwe're using the time in the
classroom that we have in orderto support this very specific
skill set might mean that wehave to change some of what

(01:02:40):
we're doing around unstructured,independent reading time.

Lori (01:02:45):
Thank you, and thank you for that caveat too.
I think that's really importantto name.
I think we have so many morequestions.
We could go all day long.

Melissa (01:02:55):
I don't understand I am a chatty.

Julia Lindsey (01:02:57):
I am a chatty, I'm not chatting a lot, so we're
going to have to plan like apart four.

Melissa (01:03:02):
I feel like I always get to the end with you and I'm
like I just want to keep talkingto her, though I know why is it
over?

Lori (01:03:11):
You're making it so easy to understand.
I'm just so grateful for howeasy you make everything to
comprehend.

Melissa (01:03:18):
Yeah, I'm glad your book did that too, right.
It's almost the same as when wetalked to you.
Your book was very similar inthat way.

Julia Lindsey (01:03:26):
Oh good, I'm glad I have heard from multiple
people that they read it in oneweekend.
It was not meant to be a tome,it's meant to be accessible and
so that you can really use it,and so thank goodness.

Lori (01:03:38):
Hopefully it doesn't.

Melissa (01:03:39):
Yeah.

Julia Lindsey (01:03:39):
It's not a stressor, it's just a resource.

Melissa (01:03:42):
Yeah, it's awesome.

Lori (01:03:43):
If I could read it again, well, and I will read it again I
would go through and, like,read all the swaps first and
then back map the chapter,almost because I thought that
was like such a great way, like.

Julia Lindsey (01:03:55):
I read forward the first time.

Lori (01:03:57):
I would almost read backward in the chapters the
next time to see.
But I love the do it tomorrowtoo, like there are so many
opportunities and like, though,I think, the one you were like
it takes no more than 15 minutes, and I was like that's true, I
could do it tomorrow.
It takes no more than 15minutes.
It's really manageable.
So it's so easy to understandand to read and such like

(01:04:18):
practical application tips Superawesome.
Thank you for that.

Julia Lindsey (01:04:23):
Well, thank you.
I'm glad it came across thatway, and I hope other folks find
value in it too.

Lori (01:04:28):
Yeah Well, we can't let you go without winding down with
five things you love, and Ican't wait to hear about this
year.
So it's going to be rapid fire,julia.
So, first thing that comes tomind, whatever comes to your
mind, yep Ready.

Melissa (01:04:45):
Do you want to start?
Yeah, all right, julia.
What do you love to read?

Julia Lindsey (01:04:51):
Besides research, children's books, yes, no, I
love kids books.
I have two nieces who are underthe age of one and my favorite
thing of the world is to buybooks for them and then get to
read them to them.

Lori (01:05:06):
I love it, love that.
What do you love to watch?

Julia Lindsey (01:05:12):
I love.
Right now I'm very much a 30minute comedy kind of gal, so
some of the old old book goodieslike Big Bang Theory, seinfeld,
even like way back in the day,that sort of thing.
Got to get a laugh in.

Lori (01:05:26):
I hear you, I love it.
A good friends episode yes, allright.

Melissa (01:05:33):
What do you love to listen to?

Julia Lindsey (01:05:36):
I'm a big podcast listener.
I've listened to recently I'vebeen listening to Code Switch on
NPR and it's a verythought-provoking.
So love that one.
Write that one down.

Lori (01:05:51):
Can you listen to yourself on a podcast?

Julia Lindsey (01:05:54):
Oh, generally no, I barely have people know.
When I have to review like avideo or something, it takes me
a while to like get up thegumption.

Lori (01:06:05):
I was just curious.
I feel like most people feelthat way too.
What is a memory you love, as ateacher or as a student?

Julia Lindsey (01:06:16):
Oh, this is such a good question.
There are so many memories Ilove as a teacher, just like
basically all of them.
I'll say one in particular.
That comes to mind is that Ihad a student who was, I mean,
they're all brilliant, but shewas just in love with writing

(01:06:40):
horror stories in first grade.
And she.
It was the most adorable thingin the world.
They weren't that scary, I'lltell you that much, but they
were really, really amazinganyhow.
And she learned how to use anellipsis the three dots in order
to add drama to her stories.
And it was just the joy on herface at watching me read the

(01:07:07):
book and then go dot dot dot.
I mean I'll just never forgetit.
It was beautiful to see someoneusing literacy in the way that
made them happy and sharing itwith me.

Melissa (01:07:20):
That's so cool.
That's so cool, All right.
Last question why do you dowhat you love for literacy?

Julia Lindsey (01:07:27):
I love that too.
Great questions, gosh.
Wow, there's a lot there.
I think that reading is the mostpowerful thing that we can give
to someone else.
I think that if we could, if Icould snap my fingers and do

(01:07:48):
something, it would be to sayeverybody has access to a
foundation of reading that'sstrong enough that they can do
something.
They want that information.
I think that that leads peopleto being lifelong learners.
I think it leads us to beingcurious.
I think it leads us to beingmore empathetic, because we can

(01:08:11):
expand our minds and our worldsthrough books of our choosing,
whether those are big nonfictiontextbooks or if they're graphic
novels, or if all we do is readtext messages or Instagram
captions.
Being able to give folks theinformation that they want,
being able to give folks theability to do whatever they want
with this skill is, I think,just utterly important and

(01:08:35):
beautiful and joyful, and I wantto do my part in helping all of
us get kids there so that theycan grow up knowing that they
can be whoever they want to beand do whatever they want to do
with their great abilities toread and to write.

Lori (01:08:56):
I love it.
Well, we're so grateful, we'reso glad you spent more time with
us, I mean, and really moretime, like we take up a lot of
your time, so thank you.
We schedule an hour block andwe always go for 90 minutes, so
thank you.

Julia Lindsey (01:09:13):
Yes, hopefully, folks are still listening at
this point.

Melissa (01:09:19):
Thank you so much, julia.
Thank you for your book too.

Lori (01:09:23):
We love, love, love it yeah everybody should go out and
grab reading above the fray andthen check out that schedule
too on the site.
That's, that is a bonus to thisbook.
That's cool, we love it.
Thank you, julia.

Julia Lindsey (01:09:36):
Thank you.

Melissa (01:10:01):
We're excited to create a space for community
discussion about our podcast.
We want to connect with ourlisteners and support you in
answering your questions, but wealso realize there are a lot of
other educators out there whohave great advice and experience
too.
Let's keep learning together inour Melissa and Lori Love
Literacy podcast Facebook group,and be sure to follow us on
Instagram and Twitter.

Lori (01:10:22):
If the content in this episode helped you, share with a
fellow educator and teacherfriend.
Our literacy lover communitywelcomes educators at every
stage of their learning journey.
We're so glad you're here tolearn with us.

Melissa (01:10:35):
The views and opinions expressed by the hosts and
guests of the Melissa and LoriLove Literacy podcast in this
episode are not necessarily theopinions of Great Minds PVC or
its employees.