April 25, 2025 • 46 mins
Episode 151 (from June 23, 2023)
How Language Variations Shape Literacy
Language and reading go hand in hand—but how can we leverage students’ linguistic strengths to support literacy?
In this episode, Julie Washington, a professor at the University of California, Irvine, who specializes in the intersection of language and literacy, breaks down the power of language variations, like African American English, and how understanding them can transform how we teach reading.
Key Takeaways:
✅ Language variations are a strength, not a barrier
✅ Students need to navigate both their home dialect and academic language
✅ Educators must set high expectations while embracing linguistic diversity
Julie shares research-backed insights and practical strategies to help educators create inclusive, effective literacy instruction. Tune in and learn how to make a real impact!
Resources
- Teaching Reading to African American Children by Julie Washington and Mark Seidenberg
- The Opportunity Myth by TNTP
- The Academic English Mastery Program by LAUSD
We answer your questions about teaching reading in The Literacy 50-A Q&A Handbook for Teachers: Real-World Answers to Questions About Reading That Keep You Up at Night.
Grab free resources and episode alerts! Sign up for our email list at literacypodcast.com.
Join our community on Facebook, and follow us on Instagram, Facebook, & Twitter.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lori (00:01):
We read the article Teaching Reading to African
American Children when Home andSchool Language Differ and
immediately emailed JulieWashington to podcast about it.
Melissa (00:10):
I was super nervous to email Julie Washington because I
am just such a fan of all ofher work and I mean she speaks
and writes so powerfully andhelps us learn different ways to
teach students who speakvariations of English.
But I am so glad she said yesto talking with us Me too.
Lori (00:26):
You were so excited.
This month we are talking aboutsupporting all readers.
There are so many connectionsto make between multilingual
learners, learners with languagevariations and how to best
teach reading for all students.
Let's dive in.
Welcome teacher friend.
I'm Lori and I'm Melissa.
We are two literacy educatorsin Baltimore.
Melissa (00:50):
We want the best for all kids and we know you do too,
our district recently adopted anew literacy curriculum, which
meant a lot of change foreveryone, lori and I can't wait
to keep learning about literacywith you today.
Lori (01:07):
Hi everyone.
Welcome to Melissa and LoriLove Literacy Literacy Podcast.
Today we are so excited becausewe have a guest who we've been
looking forward to for quitesome time now.
Melissa (01:19):
Yeah, we're here with Julie Washington, so we're so
excited.
She is a professor at theUniversity of California Irvine
and she is a professor at theUniversity of California Irvine
and she focuses her work on theintersection of language
literacy and poverty inAfrican-American children, the
impact of cultural dialects onearly literacy skills, language
development and disorders.
Yeah so, julie, welcome to thepodcast.
Julie Washington (01:40):
Hey, how are you?
It's nice to finally meet youtwo and to talk to you about
anything and everything.
Melissa (01:49):
So you wrote a great article with Mark Seidenberg
Teaching Reading to AfricanAmerican Children.
I don't know now it feels likeit was probably a little while
ago, but we actually had apodcast where we talked to
Mitchell Brookens about thatarticle and it was a great
conversation, Mitchell Brookinsabout that article and it was a
great conversation.
So we were excited to like havean actual conversation with you
about it.
But I'm wondering, like just tostart the conversation, where
(02:11):
do we start?
Like what do we need to knowabout teaching reading to
African American children?
And I can imagine some peoplemight say like, well, don't we
just teach all children the sameway to read?
Like there's this science nowthat says we teach everyone
learns how to read the same way.
So I'm really interested tohear your take on like the
differences, especially aroundlanguage.
Julie Washington (02:33):
Yeah, it's really interesting because, with
the focus on the science ofreading, there is this sort of
yeah, well, we know the scienceof reading and we just teach it
to all children and thenchildren will learn to read.
And so what we're saying is youknow, there's that conversation
on the one side, and we'vegiven up the idea.
(02:54):
With the science of reading, itappears that differentiated
instruction is still important,and so, no matter what you're
teaching children, instructionhas to be differentiated.
So you may be teaching them,though, all of the same skills,
but how the skills are taught isthe issue, and that's something
(03:15):
I think we kind of overlook.
So, yes, the science of readingapplies to all children,
regardless of their language,background and race, ethnicity.
Yes, I'm saying that out loudhere, but how we get to teaching
with more success and fidelitywith children has to take into
(03:39):
account the differences thatthey bring to reading
instruction.
If there was a one-size-fits-allway to teach reading, we would
know it by now.
There has never been, therewill never be, and the science
of reading is not that it willnever be, that there's no magic
bullet, one-size-fits-allapproach to reading, but we have
(04:01):
a science of reading that tellsus in order for children to
successfully learn to read.
These are the skills, theabilities that they need to have
and that teachers need to beimparting.
And so we do know that, andthat's great.
It's not like something that wejust discovered.
(04:21):
It is a history of readingresearch that's come together to
help us see that there are someskills like phonemic and
phonological awareness,vocabulary all of these things
that we need to teach in orderfor children to be good readers.
And so then that brings us tokids who have language variation
(04:43):
, right.
So we know that when we teachreading, morphology and
morphological awareness arereally important, for example.
So what happens when you have agroup of kids who delete
morphemes?
Do you just teach them exactlythe same way you teach everybody
else?
Melissa (05:01):
Can you give us an example of that, Julie?
Julie Washington (05:03):
It's so true.
So some of the major featuresof African-American English
impact morphology, and so, forexample, if you are an
African-American speaker, youcan delete the past tense ed
marker from words so you can sayhe jumped over the fence.
Instead of he jumped over thefence, you can say he jumped
over the fence.
(05:24):
Instead of he jumped over thefence, you can say he jumped
over the fence.
Instead of he jumps over thefence, you can say he jumping
over the fence.
And delete the is.
You can delete all the S'sthird person singular plural
possessive past tense E-D.
All of those are variablyincluded in African-American
(05:44):
English.
All of those are variablyincluded in African-American
(06:07):
English.
So if you're a teacher who'steaching reading and you get to
morphology, which impacts notonly spelling, writing, reading,
but meaning, do you not need tospend more time on those than
you would with a child, for whomthey are always included?
And so that's what we're sayinghere is that when you and you
know I study African-Americanchildren, we found very similar
needs for children who speakother dialects also, and so you
know what we were trying topoint out in that article is yes
, these children absolutely canlearn to read.
(06:28):
Yes, they are struggling tolearn to read.
Yes, we have a part in how toteach reading and improve the
outcomes for these students.
We have a lot of science thattells us what we need to do.
That tells us what we need todo, and so the question is how
(06:50):
do we?
Lori (06:50):
apply what we know differently for different
populations.
Yeah, what stands out to me isthat it uplifts our learners as
looking at their strengths andlooking at like from a
strength-based approach, ratherthan thinking of it as something
that is a negative thing.
Right, it's using the orallanguage to help support this
(07:13):
idea of teaching the generalAmerican English.
Right, like as it's written andthings like that, but then also
really respecting theAfrican-American English.
Do you think that that is agood take on that?
It is.
Julie Washington (07:27):
And it's something we really want to
encourage, because when we thinkabout teaching reading to
African-American children, whenAfrican-American children who
speak African-American Englishnot all do but when
African-American children whospeak African-American English
show up at school, they arealready experts in their
(07:47):
community's language system.
They know how it works, theyknow when it's correct, they
know when somebody's not doingit right, and they get to school
and, instead of building onthis expertise that students
have, we try to squash whatthey're doing and get them to
make this switch, and thereality is, in asking children
(08:09):
to make a switch, we're tellingthem to forego what they already
know, because now that doesn'tmatter and we need to teach you
something else, and that's.
I think that's a real problemfor us and maybe may have
contributed to some of thedifficulty we see students
continue to have.
You know, I've been sayingrecently that Louisa Motz said
(08:31):
that teaching reading is rocketscience, and so, as a teacher,
how in the world do we expectchildren to learn rocket science
using a language system thatthey don't know?
And so instead we can doexactly what you said, laurie
affirm what they know, supporttheir expertise and teach them
(08:53):
to read by integrating that intoour instruction like that's
wrong, right?
Melissa (09:07):
however, yes, you know, like I, you know, jumped, jump
instead of jumped.
And they hear it's wrong, butthen they go home and that's how
their mom says it, their dadtheir, grandma, everybody yeah
that's like, what?
Like?
How confusing is that for achild to hear it's wrong when
everyone in their life is sayingit and that's what they know?
I can just imagine they theywalk away thinking that I don't
get it.
Julie Washington (09:25):
And then we see later, like at the other end
, when one of the most probablyilluminating experiences I've
had related to this is actuallytalking to college students who
you know.
I go into this class every yearand talk to the students about
African American English inreading and what the
(09:47):
conversations that I've had withthese students have been both
important and heartbreaking.
So the first student who everresponded when I did this said
to me I didn't know the way thatI talked was a real thing.
I thought it was just wrong.
And so then we had this longconversation about why did you
(10:13):
think that?
Because my teachers told methat.
And then the other students whowere African-American jumping in
and saying you know, I had thatexperience too.
My teacher used to put a pencilbetween my teeth and tell me to
say these words correctly.
And you know, every time I goback to this class and I'm doing
it again in April, and I'malways happy to do it I'm going
(10:36):
back to this class again, andevery time I go I have these
conversations with studentsabout how their use of language
was ridiculed, was taught tothem that it's incorrect.
So now, as adults, they'retrying to think about who they
(10:57):
are and the language they useand their resources are so tied
up in trying to make surethey're doing it right that
they're not contributing andthat is a travesty and it's so
sad.
Melissa (11:12):
Julie, can I ask you a question?
This might be slightlycontroversial, I don't even know
, but I feel like I've heardfrom African American colleagues
that even within the AfricanAmerican community there can be
some pushback againstAfrican-American English Like
even like they don't want toacknowledge that it's legitimate
(11:33):
in a way.
Julie Washington (11:34):
The most pushback I get is from the
African-American community,because for us, this is not just
an intellectual issue.
This is not just anintellectual issue.
It's not just a research issue.
This is our lives, and one ofthe things we know is that.
You know, we talk aboutdialects as being high prestige
or low prestige, and a lowprestige variety is one where,
(11:58):
when people hear you speak it,they think negative things about
you as a speaker.
And African-American English islow prestige.
And so, as a community, we knowthat if you are not speaking
general American English, youare very unlikely to get that
job, to be admitted to thatcollege class, to be respected
(12:21):
by your peers, and so it hasreal life consequences for us.
And so our parents taught usthat you can't use this
linguistic system.
You can't do this, and so youknow my own, my mother she was a
stickler for it.
She's like you know, you needto speak the English, which I do
(12:42):
not, but I can speak generalAmerican English, and
African-American English was notallowed in our home.
We were taught that it wasincorrect, and her conversation
was that if you want to succeedin this country, in this world,
you have to be able to usestandard English, and so we all
(13:06):
have that history, and we knowthat, no matter what I say, no
matter what anybody saysresearchers I actually said this
to someone at a conference.
He talked about how the esteemthat African American English is
, with which it's held, haschanged, and so it's no longer
this really low prestige dialect, and I said that's not true.
(13:29):
The fact that it's popular tostudy is a completely different
issue.
Its esteem has not changed,because if a professor candidate
walked into your universityusing African-American English
in the interview, you would nothire him or her.
That is the tug thatAfrican-American people have.
(13:51):
We know we need to teachchildren to read, but we also
know from experience that theyhave to learn general American
English, and so what I'm sayingis we're not talking about
children not learning generalAmerican English, and so what
I'm saying is we're not talkingabout children not learning
general American English.
We're talking about themlearning to read, and one of the
things we've learned in ourresearch is reading helps you
make the switch to generalAmerican English, and so reading
(14:15):
and language are intertwined.
It's a reciprocal process.
Language influences reading andreading influences language.
That's something we're learningmore and more, and so what
we're saying is no, I'm notsuggesting at all that children
not learn to use the language ofeducation, media and commerce,
(14:39):
which is general AmericanEnglish, because if I do that,
then I'm relegating them to notreally being able to leave their
communities and succeed the waythat they want to.
But what I am saying is thatwhen a young child enters school
using a language system atwhich they have this expertise
and we are also trying to teachthem a highly language-based
(15:03):
skill we need to allow them touse the language that they know
to support learning to read.
Lori (15:10):
That surprised me, that it well not after you explained it
, but it surprised me a bitabout the pushback.
But that I mean it makes sense,oh.
Julie Washington (15:18):
I was doing a talk once and I'm standing at
the podium and I saw these fourblack ladies walk in and I
thought, uh-oh, so they standingat the podium?
And I saw these four blackladies walk in and I thought, oh
.
So they stood at the back andafterward they came up to me and
said we came in here, we wereready to let you have it.
Then we listened oh no, yes, welistened to what you said and
it makes so much sense to us andso, yes, I'm completely aware,
(15:58):
and I know that it's somethingthat African-American especially
educators struggle with,because we know what it's meant
for us and I know that, yourfriends, you need to be able to
make that switch and use it inthe community, if your community
speaks it, and then, whenyou're in school, eventually,
you need to make that transitioninto kids, and I don't mean
beat physically, but there's noreason to hammer this.
(16:24):
When kids are coming to schooland trying to learn arguably the
hardest language skill theywill ever need to learn, which
is reading.
There is no reason to do it atthat time.
Let children use what they knowto learn what they need to know
.
Lori (16:42):
It makes so much sense, and I'm actually wondering,
julie, if we could take a moment, because we're.
I think there are some likevocabulary in the article that
you wrote, for lack of a betterway to put it, or vocabulary
that we're using that I thinkmight be helpful for listeners
to understand a little bit moredeeply, and I'm thinking about,
like, the differences betweendialect and language variation,
(17:05):
and I'm also thinking about thedifferences between
translanguaging and codeswitching.
Are you able to speak aboutthose, just so we can all have a
baseline understanding?
Julie Washington (17:15):
Sure, so in every discipline we see these
changes in vocabulary over time.
In every discipline we seethese changes in vocabulary over
time and the way that we'reusing words or we switch one
word for another because a wordstarts to take on like a
negative connotation for people,and dialect is like that.
So when I talk about languagevariation, I'm still talking
(17:38):
about dialect.
I'm just not using that word asmuch anymore.
I'm still talking about dialect.
I'm just not using that word asmuch anymore.
And it's because people tend tothink about dialects as
subsystems, which leads people,when you're thinking about
people because we conflatepeople with the way they talk
that dialects are seen as lessthan the major language from
(17:58):
which they derive.
So we have started to usedialect less and talk about
language variation more.
Because what African AmericanEnglish is is a variant of
standard American English.
It's not less than standardAmerican English.
It's on a continuum of AmericanEnglish.
(18:20):
So if you think about AmericanEnglish on a line, there's
General American English,appalachian English, african
American English, southernEnglish, midwestern English all
on this continuum together.
And so by changing theterminology we're trying to
change people's view of howthese variations in language
(18:41):
work.
It's not American English is uphere at the top and everything
else is under that.
It's like no, it's on thecontinuum, and so many of us
know many different dialects onthis continuum, or kinds of
language variation.
When I was at Georgia State, Ihad a student who spoke Southern
English, general AmericanEnglish, gullah and African
(19:04):
American English, all on thiscontinuum of American English,
and so that's why we are talkingabout language variation more
than we are calling it dialect.
So it's this sort of shift inthe way that we're thinking
about variations in language.
(19:24):
Translanguaging and codeswitching are interesting
because they're not different.
Translanguaging is a kind ofcode switching, but the way that
we talk about code switching,primarily in research and in
practice, is making a shift fromone code to the other
(19:45):
completely.
So when I talk about codeswitching, I'm saying you came
in here using African AmericanEnglish, now I want you to
switch to the use of generalAmerican English, and that's not
really what we want children todo, especially when they're
learning to read.
And other countries are betterat this, especially South Africa
(20:07):
.
I met with a professor therewho does translanguaging
research and I read a lot of hiswork and I agree that what
translanguaging says is not youneed to make a switch is not you
need to make a switch.
It means that you need to haveaccess to your full linguistic
(20:27):
repertoire when you're learninga language skill, so you don't
need to switch from what youknow to the code that this new
thing is using.
You need to use your wholerepertoire to help you move
toward this other system and tohelp you learn in this system.
And so that's kind of the changewe're talking about with
translanguaging that when we'retalking about teaching children
(20:50):
to read, if you look at thewriting of African-American
children who useAfrican-American English, you'll
see that it's sprinkled withAfrican-American English.
So kids are naturallytranslanguaging.
They're taking the system thatthey know and they're mixing it
with the new system that they'relearning, and they do it
naturally.
And so our view is that if youcan allow children to use
(21:14):
everything they know aboutlanguage to learn these new
things, that the connectionsthat they'll make will be
clearer and stronger than takinga system that you don't really
know very well and trying tolearn this really hard thing
using this new system.
Your kids are just not makingthe connections, and so what
we're learning is that, yes,we're able to teach like
(21:38):
decoding to African-Americanchildren when they're young they
look pretty good on ourinstruments.
Then about third grade theydon't look very good anymore and
we start seeing, like thisdownward shift and some of it is
a shallow knowledge of thethings that we're teaching that
they've never really made thesestrong mental representations,
(22:00):
strong connections that wethought they were making, and
they don't have the opportunityto do so.
And in this article we talkabout, you know, trans
languaging, letting them usetheir own system to help them
make these connections.
But also we talk about moreopportunity for practice, more
exposure, because this is notonly new to me as an academic
(22:24):
skill, it's new to me as alinguistic skill.
Lori (22:28):
Right, and that's what I keep thinking is when kids are
like writing is, right, thehighest form of output, so
language is that in between, andthat's really like the bridge
that we're talking about here,right, like between reading and
writing, and that input, output,if you will, yeah, and I that's
what is striking me is likethat, that, that this is the
(22:50):
bridge.
It's something that's familiarand we want to keep that
familiarity there.
Julie Washington (22:54):
Yeah, it's interesting you say that because
the um, the world healthOrganization, has a picture of
translanguaging that I use, andthe picture is of a person with
a puzzle piece and a hole in thebridge, and the job is to take
that piece and fit it onto thebridge so that you're bringing
(23:16):
these two pieces together, andso that's exactly what it is.
Lori (23:21):
I promise, I didn't see that before I said that.
Julie Washington (23:25):
It's funny because it took me there.
Naturally, and that's exactlywhat this picture shows.
It's that I have this piecethat is me and I need to connect
what I know to this other pieceof the bridge that's in front
of me so that these two thingsmake sense for me.
Lori (23:44):
Yeah, yeah, and that just seems so like relatable for
teachers.
Melissa (23:47):
Sorry, melissa, no, it's okay, I was just wondering
about.
You know, for a teacher oranyone who's unfamiliar with
African-American English, Icould imagine them thinking like
, well, how many differencescould there really be?
You know, like you gave oneexample, and I don't even know
how I want you to quantify this,julie, but I'm just curious Are
there a lot of differencesbetween African American English
(24:09):
and general American English?
Julie Washington (24:10):
There are a lot of differences, but there
don't have to be a lot ofdifferences, there just have to
be differences.
So one of the examples that Ihave a doctoral student who is
an amazing reading teacher andwe just finished writing an
article together where she hastalked to me about her own
(24:31):
experience as a white teacherworking with Black kids and
teaching them to read, and weuse this example in the article
as a vignette.
And it's her experience.
And so she was talking to thischild and she was talking about
gold.
And so like something, gold?
(24:51):
And the child stopped her andsaid do you mean gold like
jewelry, or gold like infootball or in sports?
Because the child can deletethe D.
And so do you mean gold like anecklace or do you mean gold
like football?
And she said you know.
(25:13):
As a reflection, she steppedback and said I wonder how many
words there are like that forthis child, where he has to
figure out which one I meanRight?
And so then she took it uponherself.
She said I need to learn moreabout the dialect, and then she
integrated it into her lessonsthat whenever she knew that
(25:37):
there was a word that was goingto be impacted by additions or
deletions of phonemes ormorphemes in African-American
English.
She integrated them into herteaching, and so it doesn't have
to be a hundred of them, it canbe 10 of them.
But if you use them enough inclass and kids have enough to
(25:59):
figure out, it doesn't mean theydon't comprehend.
It means that slows them downwhile they're trying to figure
out which one you mean.
And so if we can influence thatjust by figuring out which
things are going to be impactedand integrating it into teaching
, then, boy, we could make theirjobs a lot easier.
Melissa (26:20):
That was my next question, for you was, like you
know, most of the peoplelistening right now are probably
teachers and they're probablyasking like, well, what do I do?
And is that the recommendationis, like you know, knowing the
students in front of you,whatever the language variation
is of the students that you have, is it learning about those
variations?
Julie Washington (26:38):
Well said, Whoever's sitting in front of
you, you need to know whatthey're doing differently with
language, and you'll hear it.
And the more kids there are inthe classroom, the more likely
the teacher is familiar withwhat they're doing.
And so, instead of justthinking, wow, these kids never
use final consonants, andthinking about it in like a
(26:59):
pejorative way, think about itas it relates to your
instruction and instead say, wow, these kids aren't using final
consonants.
I wonder if they can hear themwhen I'm using them during
reading instruction.
I wonder if they'll recognizethem and include them when
they're spelling.
And the answer's no, often theway that you perceive it.
(27:26):
And so if you say with insteadof with, I promise you you will
spell it W-I-F.
And so the first thing is toknow who's sitting in front of
you, who are the kids sitting infront of me?
What kinds of variants do Ihear in their language?
How might these variants impactlearning to read?
(27:49):
And because we now know thatreading is a language skill,
what your children are doingwith language will absolutely
impact reading in some way, andso your first job is to learn
about the variation and then tothink about how, when you're
teaching phonology or phonemicawareness one, how it might
(28:12):
influence what you're doing.
Two, how you might integrate itin to help kids hear the
differences and learn thedifferences.
And then to read.
That's one of the things that'soften missing, especially in
urban classrooms, is reading.
Reading is not just aboutinstruction, it's about reading.
It's about practice.
Good readers read, good writerswrite, good speakers speak, and
(28:37):
so you're never going to be agood reader without the
opportunity to read, and I donot want to hear these kids
don't have any books at home.
We'll send some home.
I don't want to hear theirparents don't read to them.
You know what, if you have kidswho are struggling with reading
, we all know enough aboutreading to know that parents may
(28:57):
also be struggling, and so Idon't want to hear that.
What I want to see is readingin classrooms and in urban
classrooms where so many kidsare struggling.
I understand that teachers getreally overwhelmed by the number
of kids in their room who arestruggling with reading and they
really get focused on theinstruction piece, but I know
(29:17):
that my kids went to schoolswhere kids weren't struggling
with reading and what you saw inthose classrooms was kids
sprawled out on beanbags readinga book.
You saw kids in the librarysitting on the floor reading
books.
You saw kids everywhere readingbecause the teachers weren't as
stressed with the readinginstruction piece.
(29:38):
But what I am saying is that,even in the presence of all of
that difficulty with learning toread, reading has to be
included, not just readinginstruction.
Melissa (29:51):
Yeah, and we can read to the kids in school.
Julie Washington (29:54):
Yes, I love when you read to kids and kids
love it.
I mean, I remember whenteachers are reading chapter
books especially, and they'rereading something really
exciting, and they say, well,that's it for today.
Lori (30:06):
And you're like no, I know , I know.
And they say, well, that's itfor today, and you're like no, I
know, I know.
I also think, julie, there areso many options, right, like
with the, what are they called?
Like the, those taken plays,their play, they're called
playaways that, like kids couldcheck out of the library of
school, gives them a pair ofheadsets, take it home and
listen.
Right, I mean, that could besomething that a parent and a
(30:27):
kid put a headset in and listentogether and have that shared
experience.
Melissa (30:32):
I mean there's so many YouTube there's just so much.
Lori (30:34):
That's right.
So I love that idea of liketaking away the excuses, because
it really is.
There's so many options.
Julie Washington (30:41):
That's right.
There are ways for kids to getaccess to books so many ways.
Lori (30:50):
I think that kind of leads me to think about this, that
idea of like biases, like kindof, as an educator, I have to
check my biases at the door,right Like it's.
I have to think about this in alike we started off the
conversation in a reallystrength-based way and how can I
make it happen?
If it's not happening, how canI support this effort, rather
than thinking like in adetrimental way, which I know is
(31:13):
like such a challenge whenyou're in the mix every single
day?
So we'll put it out there welove you teachers.
It's hard.
Julie Washington (31:21):
It's also a challenge when it's your life
orientation.
So if you believe this aboutkids who use language in a
certain way or who look acertain child, you can't learn,
(31:59):
I promise you.
All the teachers in the roomwill say well, of course I
believe that.
So it's hard to changesomething that you don't know is
an issue for you.
It's hard to change somethingthat you don't know is an issue
for you.
So in some ways, at first youhave to identify your biases and
once you identify them, thenwork on changing them.
You know, many years ago, when Iwas in Michigan and I still
(32:35):
have these data and maybesomeday in some life I'll
published them we gave teachers,parents and children the same
survey and we called it aself-efficacy survey, and we
asked them all the samequestions and the questions were
things like does this child, ordo you or does your child, have
the potential to go on tocollege?
Will your child be a collegegraduate?
Will this child be a collegegraduate?
And these were kids inkindergarten, first and second
(32:56):
grade, and what we learned wasthat teachers viewed kids'
potential based on their currentperformance.
So even if you were in firstgrade, if you were struggling
with reading, the teacher saidon this survey this child is not
going to go on to college.
Oh my God, then what is thepoint of continuing to school?
(33:18):
Move on and become a collegegraduate.
So that's a bias that not onlyinfluences your thinking, but it
will absolutely influence theway you instruct this child.
Research on teacherexpectations talk about them as
(33:42):
self-fulfilling prophecies thatif you believe this about
children, it becomes propheticbecause it influences the way
that you instruct them.
So these are not glib.
You need to change your biases.
Unimportant issues they areabsolutely critical to the
outcomes and the future of thechildren who are sitting in
(34:03):
front of you.
And I imagine the language playsa huge part in that because,
like you said earlier, and Iimagine the language plays a
(34:31):
huge part in that because, likeyou said earlier, if it's a
language variation seen as lowprestige, like you've mentioned,
what does that are what yourfuture is going to be and that
has significant consequences fornot only overall academic
outcomes but for whether ateacher actually believes that
children can read or will learn.
Melissa (34:42):
And so and that just kind of broke my heart, because
I mean you saying even in, likekindergarten, first grade, but
we still need to teach themExactly.
Julie Washington (34:52):
And we need for that teaching to not be
perfunctory.
I'm teaching them because I'mgetting paid to teach them.
It needs to be.
I'm teaching them so that thischild will have the best
possible outcomes that he or shecan have and will be able to go
on and do the things they wantto do in their life.
That's what we're doing asteachers.
(35:13):
As a university instructor,it's clear to me that I have
these eager undergrads sittingin front of me who someday want
to be doing what I'm doing orthings that I have done, and my
job is to prepare them for that.
And when they come to thatprocess with different kinds of
(35:34):
skills and abilities andchallenges, then I have to
change what I'm doing with thatstudent in order to be sure that
they get the content in theclass.
And I know that that's my joband I know teachers know it's
their job too.
But this issue of what are yourbiases?
What do you really think aboutthe students sitting in front of
(35:55):
you?
How does their language useinfluence what you think?
Lori (36:00):
It makes me think so much of the uh opportunity myth from
TNTP, where they found that thefour key resources that students
need in their daily schoolexperiences are grade level,
appropriate assignments, stronginstruction, deep engagement and
what we're talking about highexpectations teachers who
(36:22):
believe that students can meetgrade level standards.
And that always strikes me right.
Like I send my kid off tosoccer practice three times a
week, do I send her with a coachwho thinks that she's not going
to be able to meet thestandards?
And if that she's not, thestandards of the play, the
practice, the game and if she'snot, then I I put my faith in
(36:44):
the coach that he's going toteach her, not that he's going
to say, well, I guess you'rejust not going to keep playing
soccer right Like, we're goingto just teach you what you need
to know.
Like you said, julie, we'regoing to practice it right and
we're going to keep trying.
We're going to keep learningtogether.
But my expectation is thatyou're going to learn how to do
(37:06):
this skill or this thing andI'll keep teaching you how to do
it, because I think you can andbecause I'm teaching you how to
do it Right.
Julie Washington (37:15):
And I'm going to teach every child in front of
me to play soccer the best thatI can and the best that they
can.
They can, yeah Right.
But you know, rod Page, who wasone of our former secretaries
of education, I, those studentsare getting the same high
quality instruction as theirstudents are with more resources
(37:56):
, because those low expectationsare a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Melissa (38:01):
I always put my teacher hat on.
You know, like, as a teacher,I'm just wondering, like, what
do I do now, right, like if I,if I want to learn more?
Julie, do you have anyrecommendations for teachers of
where they can go to learn aboutdifferent language variations,
african American Englishspecifically?
Julie Washington (38:18):
Yeah, sure, I mean, there are a few of us out
here who are doing this work.
It's not just me.
There are a number of us whoare doing it.
There are a number of us whoare doing it, and so if you look
for those people, the work thatthey're doing, you know Julie
Washington, lakeisha Johnson,brandi Gatlin Nash, nicole
(38:45):
Patton, terry Jana Edding at LSU, monique Mills, who's at the
University of Houston.
There are a bunch of us who arelooking at these issues with
children in very different ways,and some of us who are in the
trenches trying to change it,like Ryan Lee James, who was a
student of mine and who's nowout there in the trenches in
Atlanta trying to influenceoutcomes.
There are a bunch of us who aredoing this.
(39:05):
So there is us who are doingthis.
So there is go to the research.
The research is there.
The lists of features are there.
How they influence language andspelling and reading and
writing are all out there, andso you can look for those Also.
I learned and they are I don'tthink they're, you know, like
(39:26):
letting people know.
Well, enough is the LAUSD, theLos Angeles Unified School
District, has a program calledum.
Oh, I know, I'm not going toremember it because I'm talking.
Melissa (39:38):
I think we wrote it down.
Is it the Academic EnglishMastery Program?
That's it.
Julie Washington (39:42):
The Academic English Mastery Program.
So on their website they havetaken all these different
language variationsHawaiian-influenced English,
spanish-influenced English,african-american English and
listed the differences that youwill see in those language
(40:06):
variations from general AmericanEnglish, and I think that's a
fantastic resource.
And California, you know whichI've been here now for two years
is so diverse, and so there'sso much linguistic diversity
here, and so the schools areencountering it every day, and
(40:26):
we're not just talking aboutkids who speak other languages,
we're talking about children whohave within language variation,
so they use American English ina way that is different in
their communities, and so Ithink that's a great resource.
But teachers should also bereading.
Like.
You came to me because of anarticle and we wrote it.
(40:47):
I was happy American Educatorapproached me about writing it
and I was really happy to do itbecause of the wide audience
that it has among teachers.
And so Mark and I got togetherMark Seidenberg, and wrote this
article, and we were both veryexcited because we knew that our
target audience is not just ourfriends, fellow researchers,
(41:12):
but also the teachers that we'retrying to influence, and this
is a publication that teachersread.
Lori (41:19):
Yeah Well, I'm linking everything.
I know it's so hard.
I'm linking everything and Ihave the resource from the LAUSD
that has some great printables.
So just a little plug there foreducators listening it's linked
in the show notes.
Check it out, there's someprintables.
But also in the article thatwe're talking about here with
(41:39):
Julie, there is a table thathelps us understand the key
features of African-AmericanEnglish.
If you're looking for aresource for yourself, just to
kind of start with, I think it'sa really nice little like
introduction overview to it andthen you can go a little bit
deeper.
So quick plug for that, Julie.
Is there anything that we'remissing that you'd like to share
(42:00):
that you just feel compelled tosay as we close out this
podcast?
Julie Washington (42:05):
Yeah, the only thing I really want to say is I
don't want teachers to getoverwhelmed by the information,
because I realize how hardthey're working.
They have always been workinghard and are working harder
still in the face of thechallenges that the pandemic
created, and so you know this isnot a.
(42:29):
You need to work harder, harder, harder.
This is not what thatconversation is about.
This conversation is about youknow.
You know we have a science ofreading.
Many teachers are stilllearning it.
Some of them already know it,and what we're asking you is to
look at the children who aresitting in front of you and
differentiate the science ofreading based on what those
(42:53):
students' needs are, whethertheir students are
African-American, american,indian, latino or Latinx,
whatever the challenges are orwhatever the student looks like
in front of you.
Take some time to figure outhow your instruction might be
(43:13):
impacted and see it as somethingthat you can do to make reading
less cognitively difficult forchildren.
We're not asking you to changechildren.
We're asking you to adapt yourinstruction to include them.
Lori (43:30):
What struck me, julia, from an earlier part of this
conversation is when you saidwe're essentially not taking
away or changing what studentsare learning.
It's how we are teaching, andyou know you might teach it one
way to everyone and then realize, oh my gosh, this group of
students needs a little bit more, or these kids need a little
(43:52):
bit more, so you're going tochange your approach there.
Right, and that's where I thinkI'm struck is we're not saying
change what you're doing, thewhat stays the same.
That's that I think I'm struckis we're not saying change what
you're doing, the what stays thesame.
That's that body of reading,science, research, that's right.
I just can't say that enough.
That's what's really strikingme.
I took a nice note while youwere talking.
Melissa (44:12):
But it's how they get there, that's right.
Yeah, we'll make such a puzzlepiece, right, it's how we help
them get there.
Julie Washington (44:19):
Yep, yes, yes.
And one more thing I would wantto say and I've said it over
and over again and I just wantto punctuate it Children are not
blank slates.
They do not come to schoolknowing nothing.
They know a lot, they have alot of skills, and it's
incumbent upon us to figure outwhat those skills are and how we
(44:41):
can leverage them to help themlearn to read.
They know so much and they havea lot of linguistic expertise.
It is not always in thelanguage of the classroom or the
language of print which is moreimportant.
And so what they know and whatwe need them to know, we're
extending what they know.
We're not erasing what theyknow, so we're not trying know.
(45:01):
We're extending what they know.
We're not erasing what theyknow, so we're not trying to get
rid of what you already know.
We're trying to extend what youknow to include what we're
trying to teach you.
Lori (45:11):
Why do you do what you love for education and for
literacy?
Julie Washington (45:16):
I do it because it's important.
I do it because it's importantand I know that the children
that we are interested in areunderserved, understudied and we
need to know so much morebecause they're struggling not
only now, but we know how muchthey will struggle in the future
unless we get this right.
Lori (45:40):
Well, we are beyond grateful for you being here
today.
It was a true honor.
We just adore your work andthank you for being here.
We're just really grateful.
I don't know what else to sayother than thank you.
Julie Washington (45:52):
Thank you, it was so much fun, thank you.
Lori (45:59):
Thanks for listening.
Literacy lovers, To stayconnected with us, sign up for
our email list atliteracypodcastcom.
Melissa (46:07):
And to keep learning together.
Join the Melissa and Lori LoveLiteracy Podcast Facebook group
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Lori (46:17):
If this episode resonated with you, take a moment to share
with a teacher friend or leaveus a five star rating and review
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Melissa (46:27):
Just a quick reminder that the views and opinions
expressed by the hosts andguests of the Melissa and Lori
Love Literacy podcast are notnecessarily the opinions of
Great Minds PBC or its employees.
Lori (46:39):
We appreciate you so much and we're so glad you're here to
learn with us.
We read the article Teaching Reading to African
American Children when Home andSchool Language Differ and
immediately emailed JulieWashington to podcast about it.
Melissa (00:10):
I was super nervous to email Julie Washington because I
am just such a fan of all ofher work and I mean she speaks
and writes so powerfully andhelps us learn different ways to
teach students who speakvariations of English.
But I am so glad she said yesto talking with us Me too.
Lori (00:26):
You were so excited.
This month we are talking aboutsupporting all readers.
There are so many connectionsto make between multilingual
learners, learners with languagevariations and how to best
teach reading for all students.
Let's dive in.
Welcome teacher friend.
I'm Lori and I'm Melissa.
We are two literacy educatorsin Baltimore.
Melissa (00:50):
We want the best for all kids and we know you do too,
our district recently adopted anew literacy curriculum, which
meant a lot of change foreveryone, lori and I can't wait
to keep learning about literacywith you today.
Lori (01:07):
Hi everyone.
Welcome to Melissa and LoriLove Literacy Literacy Podcast.
Today we are so excited becausewe have a guest who we've been
looking forward to for quitesome time now.
Melissa (01:19):
Yeah, we're here with Julie Washington, so we're so
excited.
She is a professor at theUniversity of California Irvine
and she is a professor at theUniversity of California Irvine
and she focuses her work on theintersection of language
literacy and poverty inAfrican-American children, the
impact of cultural dialects onearly literacy skills, language
development and disorders.
Yeah so, julie, welcome to thepodcast.
Julie Washington (01:40):
Hey, how are you?
It's nice to finally meet youtwo and to talk to you about
anything and everything.
Melissa (01:49):
So you wrote a great article with Mark Seidenberg
Teaching Reading to AfricanAmerican Children.
I don't know now it feels likeit was probably a little while
ago, but we actually had apodcast where we talked to
Mitchell Brookens about thatarticle and it was a great
conversation, Mitchell Brookinsabout that article and it was a
great conversation.
So we were excited to like havean actual conversation with you
about it.
But I'm wondering, like just tostart the conversation, where
(02:11):
do we start?
Like what do we need to knowabout teaching reading to
African American children?
And I can imagine some peoplemight say like, well, don't we
just teach all children the sameway to read?
Like there's this science nowthat says we teach everyone
learns how to read the same way.
So I'm really interested tohear your take on like the
differences, especially aroundlanguage.
Julie Washington (02:33):
Yeah, it's really interesting because, with
the focus on the science ofreading, there is this sort of
yeah, well, we know the scienceof reading and we just teach it
to all children and thenchildren will learn to read.
And so what we're saying is youknow, there's that conversation
on the one side, and we'vegiven up the idea.
(02:54):
With the science of reading, itappears that differentiated
instruction is still important,and so, no matter what you're
teaching children, instructionhas to be differentiated.
So you may be teaching them,though, all of the same skills,
but how the skills are taught isthe issue, and that's something
(03:15):
I think we kind of overlook.
So, yes, the science of readingapplies to all children,
regardless of their language,background and race, ethnicity.
Yes, I'm saying that out loudhere, but how we get to teaching
with more success and fidelitywith children has to take into
(03:39):
account the differences thatthey bring to reading
instruction.
If there was a one-size-fits-allway to teach reading, we would
know it by now.
There has never been, therewill never be, and the science
of reading is not that it willnever be, that there's no magic
bullet, one-size-fits-allapproach to reading, but we have
(04:01):
a science of reading that tellsus in order for children to
successfully learn to read.
These are the skills, theabilities that they need to have
and that teachers need to beimparting.
And so we do know that, andthat's great.
It's not like something that wejust discovered.
(04:21):
It is a history of readingresearch that's come together to
help us see that there are someskills like phonemic and
phonological awareness,vocabulary all of these things
that we need to teach in orderfor children to be good readers.
And so then that brings us tokids who have language variation
(04:43):
, right.
So we know that when we teachreading, morphology and
morphological awareness arereally important, for example.
So what happens when you have agroup of kids who delete
morphemes?
Do you just teach them exactlythe same way you teach everybody
else?
Melissa (05:01):
Can you give us an example of that, Julie?
Julie Washington (05:03):
It's so true.
So some of the major featuresof African-American English
impact morphology, and so, forexample, if you are an
African-American speaker, youcan delete the past tense ed
marker from words so you can sayhe jumped over the fence.
Instead of he jumped over thefence, you can say he jumped
over the fence.
(05:24):
Instead of he jumped over thefence, you can say he jumped
over the fence.
Instead of he jumps over thefence, you can say he jumping
over the fence.
And delete the is.
You can delete all the S'sthird person singular plural
possessive past tense E-D.
All of those are variablyincluded in African-American
(05:44):
English.
All of those are variablyincluded in African-American
(06:07):
English.
So if you're a teacher who'steaching reading and you get to
morphology, which impacts notonly spelling, writing, reading,
but meaning, do you not need tospend more time on those than
you would with a child, for whomthey are always included?
And so that's what we're sayinghere is that when you and you
know I study African-Americanchildren, we found very similar
needs for children who speakother dialects also, and so you
know what we were trying topoint out in that article is yes
, these children absolutely canlearn to read.
(06:28):
Yes, they are struggling tolearn to read.
Yes, we have a part in how toteach reading and improve the
outcomes for these students.
We have a lot of science thattells us what we need to do.
That tells us what we need todo, and so the question is how
(06:50):
do we?
Lori (06:50):
apply what we know differently for different
populations.
Yeah, what stands out to me isthat it uplifts our learners as
looking at their strengths andlooking at like from a
strength-based approach, ratherthan thinking of it as something
that is a negative thing.
Right, it's using the orallanguage to help support this
(07:13):
idea of teaching the generalAmerican English.
Right, like as it's written andthings like that, but then also
really respecting theAfrican-American English.
Do you think that that is agood take on that?
It is.
Julie Washington (07:27):
And it's something we really want to
encourage, because when we thinkabout teaching reading to
African-American children, whenAfrican-American children who
speak African-American Englishnot all do but when
African-American children whospeak African-American English
show up at school, they arealready experts in their
(07:47):
community's language system.
They know how it works, theyknow when it's correct, they
know when somebody's not doingit right, and they get to school
and, instead of building onthis expertise that students
have, we try to squash whatthey're doing and get them to
make this switch, and thereality is, in asking children
(08:09):
to make a switch, we're tellingthem to forego what they already
know, because now that doesn'tmatter and we need to teach you
something else, and that's.
I think that's a real problemfor us and maybe may have
contributed to some of thedifficulty we see students
continue to have.
You know, I've been sayingrecently that Louisa Motz said
(08:31):
that teaching reading is rocketscience, and so, as a teacher,
how in the world do we expectchildren to learn rocket science
using a language system thatthey don't know?
And so instead we can doexactly what you said, laurie
affirm what they know, supporttheir expertise and teach them
(08:53):
to read by integrating that intoour instruction like that's
wrong, right?
Melissa (09:07):
however, yes, you know, like I, you know, jumped, jump
instead of jumped.
And they hear it's wrong, butthen they go home and that's how
their mom says it, their dadtheir, grandma, everybody yeah
that's like, what?
Like?
How confusing is that for achild to hear it's wrong when
everyone in their life is sayingit and that's what they know?
I can just imagine they theywalk away thinking that I don't
get it.
Julie Washington (09:25):
And then we see later, like at the other end
, when one of the most probablyilluminating experiences I've
had related to this is actuallytalking to college students who
you know.
I go into this class every yearand talk to the students about
African American English inreading and what the
(09:47):
conversations that I've had withthese students have been both
important and heartbreaking.
So the first student who everresponded when I did this said
to me I didn't know the way thatI talked was a real thing.
I thought it was just wrong.
And so then we had this longconversation about why did you
(10:13):
think that?
Because my teachers told methat.
And then the other students whowere African-American jumping in
and saying you know, I had thatexperience too.
My teacher used to put a pencilbetween my teeth and tell me to
say these words correctly.
And you know, every time I goback to this class and I'm doing
it again in April, and I'malways happy to do it I'm going
(10:36):
back to this class again, andevery time I go I have these
conversations with studentsabout how their use of language
was ridiculed, was taught tothem that it's incorrect.
So now, as adults, they'retrying to think about who they
(10:57):
are and the language they useand their resources are so tied
up in trying to make surethey're doing it right that
they're not contributing andthat is a travesty and it's so
sad.
Melissa (11:12):
Julie, can I ask you a question?
This might be slightlycontroversial, I don't even know
, but I feel like I've heardfrom African American colleagues
that even within the AfricanAmerican community there can be
some pushback againstAfrican-American English Like
even like they don't want toacknowledge that it's legitimate
(11:33):
in a way.
Julie Washington (11:34):
The most pushback I get is from the
African-American community,because for us, this is not just
an intellectual issue.
This is not just anintellectual issue.
It's not just a research issue.
This is our lives, and one ofthe things we know is that.
You know, we talk aboutdialects as being high prestige
or low prestige, and a lowprestige variety is one where,
(11:58):
when people hear you speak it,they think negative things about
you as a speaker.
And African-American English islow prestige.
And so, as a community, we knowthat if you are not speaking
general American English, youare very unlikely to get that
job, to be admitted to thatcollege class, to be respected
(12:21):
by your peers, and so it hasreal life consequences for us.
And so our parents taught usthat you can't use this
linguistic system.
You can't do this, and so youknow my own, my mother she was a
stickler for it.
She's like you know, you needto speak the English, which I do
(12:42):
not, but I can speak generalAmerican English, and
African-American English was notallowed in our home.
We were taught that it wasincorrect, and her conversation
was that if you want to succeedin this country, in this world,
you have to be able to usestandard English, and so we all
(13:06):
have that history, and we knowthat, no matter what I say, no
matter what anybody saysresearchers I actually said this
to someone at a conference.
He talked about how the esteemthat African American English is
, with which it's held, haschanged, and so it's no longer
this really low prestige dialect, and I said that's not true.
(13:29):
The fact that it's popular tostudy is a completely different
issue.
Its esteem has not changed,because if a professor candidate
walked into your universityusing African-American English
in the interview, you would nothire him or her.
That is the tug thatAfrican-American people have.
(13:51):
We know we need to teachchildren to read, but we also
know from experience that theyhave to learn general American
English, and so what I'm sayingis we're not talking about
children not learning generalAmerican English, and so what
I'm saying is we're not talkingabout children not learning
general American English.
We're talking about themlearning to read, and one of the
things we've learned in ourresearch is reading helps you
make the switch to generalAmerican English, and so reading
(14:15):
and language are intertwined.
It's a reciprocal process.
Language influences reading andreading influences language.
That's something we're learningmore and more, and so what
we're saying is no, I'm notsuggesting at all that children
not learn to use the language ofeducation, media and commerce,
(14:39):
which is general AmericanEnglish, because if I do that,
then I'm relegating them to notreally being able to leave their
communities and succeed the waythat they want to.
But what I am saying is thatwhen a young child enters school
using a language system atwhich they have this expertise
and we are also trying to teachthem a highly language-based
(15:03):
skill we need to allow them touse the language that they know
to support learning to read.
Lori (15:10):
That surprised me, that it well not after you explained it
, but it surprised me a bitabout the pushback.
But that I mean it makes sense,oh.
Julie Washington (15:18):
I was doing a talk once and I'm standing at
the podium and I saw these fourblack ladies walk in and I
thought, uh-oh, so they standingat the podium?
And I saw these four blackladies walk in and I thought, oh
.
So they stood at the back andafterward they came up to me and
said we came in here, we wereready to let you have it.
Then we listened oh no, yes, welistened to what you said and
it makes so much sense to us andso, yes, I'm completely aware,
(15:58):
and I know that it's somethingthat African-American especially
educators struggle with,because we know what it's meant
for us and I know that, yourfriends, you need to be able to
make that switch and use it inthe community, if your community
speaks it, and then, whenyou're in school, eventually,
you need to make that transitioninto kids, and I don't mean
beat physically, but there's noreason to hammer this.
(16:24):
When kids are coming to schooland trying to learn arguably the
hardest language skill theywill ever need to learn, which
is reading.
There is no reason to do it atthat time.
Let children use what they knowto learn what they need to know
.
Lori (16:42):
It makes so much sense, and I'm actually wondering,
julie, if we could take a moment, because we're.
I think there are some likevocabulary in the article that
you wrote, for lack of a betterway to put it, or vocabulary
that we're using that I thinkmight be helpful for listeners
to understand a little bit moredeeply, and I'm thinking about,
like, the differences betweendialect and language variation,
(17:05):
and I'm also thinking about thedifferences between
translanguaging and codeswitching.
Are you able to speak aboutthose, just so we can all have a
baseline understanding?
Julie Washington (17:15):
Sure, so in every discipline we see these
changes in vocabulary over time.
In every discipline we seethese changes in vocabulary over
time and the way that we'reusing words or we switch one
word for another because a wordstarts to take on like a
negative connotation for people,and dialect is like that.
So when I talk about languagevariation, I'm still talking
(17:38):
about dialect.
I'm just not using that word asmuch anymore.
I'm still talking about dialect.
I'm just not using that word asmuch anymore.
And it's because people tend tothink about dialects as
subsystems, which leads people,when you're thinking about
people because we conflatepeople with the way they talk
that dialects are seen as lessthan the major language from
(17:58):
which they derive.
So we have started to usedialect less and talk about
language variation more.
Because what African AmericanEnglish is is a variant of
standard American English.
It's not less than standardAmerican English.
It's on a continuum of AmericanEnglish.
(18:20):
So if you think about AmericanEnglish on a line, there's
General American English,appalachian English, african
American English, southernEnglish, midwestern English all
on this continuum together.
And so by changing theterminology we're trying to
change people's view of howthese variations in language
(18:41):
work.
It's not American English is uphere at the top and everything
else is under that.
It's like no, it's on thecontinuum, and so many of us
know many different dialects onthis continuum, or kinds of
language variation.
When I was at Georgia State, Ihad a student who spoke Southern
English, general AmericanEnglish, gullah and African
(19:04):
American English, all on thiscontinuum of American English,
and so that's why we are talkingabout language variation more
than we are calling it dialect.
So it's this sort of shift inthe way that we're thinking
about variations in language.
(19:24):
Translanguaging and codeswitching are interesting
because they're not different.
Translanguaging is a kind ofcode switching, but the way that
we talk about code switching,primarily in research and in
practice, is making a shift fromone code to the other
(19:45):
completely.
So when I talk about codeswitching, I'm saying you came
in here using African AmericanEnglish, now I want you to
switch to the use of generalAmerican English, and that's not
really what we want children todo, especially when they're
learning to read.
And other countries are betterat this, especially South Africa
(20:07):
.
I met with a professor therewho does translanguaging
research and I read a lot of hiswork and I agree that what
translanguaging says is not youneed to make a switch is not you
need to make a switch.
It means that you need to haveaccess to your full linguistic
(20:27):
repertoire when you're learninga language skill, so you don't
need to switch from what youknow to the code that this new
thing is using.
You need to use your wholerepertoire to help you move
toward this other system and tohelp you learn in this system.
And so that's kind of the changewe're talking about with
translanguaging that when we'retalking about teaching children
(20:50):
to read, if you look at thewriting of African-American
children who useAfrican-American English, you'll
see that it's sprinkled withAfrican-American English.
So kids are naturallytranslanguaging.
They're taking the system thatthey know and they're mixing it
with the new system that they'relearning, and they do it
naturally.
And so our view is that if youcan allow children to use
(21:14):
everything they know aboutlanguage to learn these new
things, that the connectionsthat they'll make will be
clearer and stronger than takinga system that you don't really
know very well and trying tolearn this really hard thing
using this new system.
Your kids are just not makingthe connections, and so what
we're learning is that, yes,we're able to teach like
(21:38):
decoding to African-Americanchildren when they're young they
look pretty good on ourinstruments.
Then about third grade theydon't look very good anymore and
we start seeing, like thisdownward shift and some of it is
a shallow knowledge of thethings that we're teaching that
they've never really made thesestrong mental representations,
(22:00):
strong connections that wethought they were making, and
they don't have the opportunityto do so.
And in this article we talkabout, you know, trans
languaging, letting them usetheir own system to help them
make these connections.
But also we talk about moreopportunity for practice, more
exposure, because this is notonly new to me as an academic
(22:24):
skill, it's new to me as alinguistic skill.
Lori (22:28):
Right, and that's what I keep thinking is when kids are
like writing is, right, thehighest form of output, so
language is that in between, andthat's really like the bridge
that we're talking about here,right, like between reading and
writing, and that input, output,if you will, yeah, and I that's
what is striking me is likethat, that, that this is the
(22:50):
bridge.
It's something that's familiarand we want to keep that
familiarity there.
Julie Washington (22:54):
Yeah, it's interesting you say that because
the um, the world healthOrganization, has a picture of
translanguaging that I use, andthe picture is of a person with
a puzzle piece and a hole in thebridge, and the job is to take
that piece and fit it onto thebridge so that you're bringing
(23:16):
these two pieces together, andso that's exactly what it is.
Lori (23:21):
I promise, I didn't see that before I said that.
Julie Washington (23:25):
It's funny because it took me there.
Naturally, and that's exactlywhat this picture shows.
It's that I have this piecethat is me and I need to connect
what I know to this other pieceof the bridge that's in front
of me so that these two thingsmake sense for me.
Lori (23:44):
Yeah, yeah, and that just seems so like relatable for
teachers.
Melissa (23:47):
Sorry, melissa, no, it's okay, I was just wondering
about.
You know, for a teacher oranyone who's unfamiliar with
African-American English, Icould imagine them thinking like
, well, how many differencescould there really be?
You know, like you gave oneexample, and I don't even know
how I want you to quantify this,julie, but I'm just curious Are
there a lot of differencesbetween African American English
(24:09):
and general American English?
Julie Washington (24:10):
There are a lot of differences, but there
don't have to be a lot ofdifferences, there just have to
be differences.
So one of the examples that Ihave a doctoral student who is
an amazing reading teacher andwe just finished writing an
article together where she hastalked to me about her own
(24:31):
experience as a white teacherworking with Black kids and
teaching them to read, and weuse this example in the article
as a vignette.
And it's her experience.
And so she was talking to thischild and she was talking about
gold.
And so like something, gold?
(24:51):
And the child stopped her andsaid do you mean gold like
jewelry, or gold like infootball or in sports?
Because the child can deletethe D.
And so do you mean gold like anecklace or do you mean gold
like football?
And she said you know.
(25:13):
As a reflection, she steppedback and said I wonder how many
words there are like that forthis child, where he has to
figure out which one I meanRight?
And so then she took it uponherself.
She said I need to learn moreabout the dialect, and then she
integrated it into her lessonsthat whenever she knew that
(25:37):
there was a word that was goingto be impacted by additions or
deletions of phonemes ormorphemes in African-American
English.
She integrated them into herteaching, and so it doesn't have
to be a hundred of them, it canbe 10 of them.
But if you use them enough inclass and kids have enough to
(25:59):
figure out, it doesn't mean theydon't comprehend.
It means that slows them downwhile they're trying to figure
out which one you mean.
And so if we can influence thatjust by figuring out which
things are going to be impactedand integrating it into teaching
, then, boy, we could make theirjobs a lot easier.
Melissa (26:20):
That was my next question, for you was, like you
know, most of the peoplelistening right now are probably
teachers and they're probablyasking like, well, what do I do?
And is that the recommendationis, like you know, knowing the
students in front of you,whatever the language variation
is of the students that you have, is it learning about those
variations?
Julie Washington (26:38):
Well said, Whoever's sitting in front of
you, you need to know whatthey're doing differently with
language, and you'll hear it.
And the more kids there are inthe classroom, the more likely
the teacher is familiar withwhat they're doing.
And so, instead of justthinking, wow, these kids never
use final consonants, andthinking about it in like a
(26:59):
pejorative way, think about itas it relates to your
instruction and instead say, wow, these kids aren't using final
consonants.
I wonder if they can hear themwhen I'm using them during
reading instruction.
I wonder if they'll recognizethem and include them when
they're spelling.
And the answer's no, often theway that you perceive it.
(27:26):
And so if you say with insteadof with, I promise you you will
spell it W-I-F.
And so the first thing is toknow who's sitting in front of
you, who are the kids sitting infront of me?
What kinds of variants do Ihear in their language?
How might these variants impactlearning to read?
(27:49):
And because we now know thatreading is a language skill,
what your children are doingwith language will absolutely
impact reading in some way, andso your first job is to learn
about the variation and then tothink about how, when you're
teaching phonology or phonemicawareness one, how it might
(28:12):
influence what you're doing.
Two, how you might integrate itin to help kids hear the
differences and learn thedifferences.
And then to read.
That's one of the things that'soften missing, especially in
urban classrooms, is reading.
Reading is not just aboutinstruction, it's about reading.
It's about practice.
Good readers read, good writerswrite, good speakers speak, and
(28:37):
so you're never going to be agood reader without the
opportunity to read, and I donot want to hear these kids
don't have any books at home.
We'll send some home.
I don't want to hear theirparents don't read to them.
You know what, if you have kidswho are struggling with reading
, we all know enough aboutreading to know that parents may
(28:57):
also be struggling, and so Idon't want to hear that.
What I want to see is readingin classrooms and in urban
classrooms where so many kidsare struggling.
I understand that teachers getreally overwhelmed by the number
of kids in their room who arestruggling with reading and they
really get focused on theinstruction piece, but I know
(29:17):
that my kids went to schoolswhere kids weren't struggling
with reading and what you saw inthose classrooms was kids
sprawled out on beanbags readinga book.
You saw kids in the librarysitting on the floor reading
books.
You saw kids everywhere readingbecause the teachers weren't as
stressed with the readinginstruction piece.
(29:38):
But what I am saying is that,even in the presence of all of
that difficulty with learning toread, reading has to be
included, not just readinginstruction.
Melissa (29:51):
Yeah, and we can read to the kids in school.
Julie Washington (29:54):
Yes, I love when you read to kids and kids
love it.
I mean, I remember whenteachers are reading chapter
books especially, and they'rereading something really
exciting, and they say, well,that's it for today.
Lori (30:06):
And you're like no, I know , I know.
And they say, well, that's itfor today, and you're like no, I
know, I know.
I also think, julie, there areso many options, right, like
with the, what are they called?
Like the, those taken plays,their play, they're called
playaways that, like kids couldcheck out of the library of
school, gives them a pair ofheadsets, take it home and
listen.
Right, I mean, that could besomething that a parent and a
(30:27):
kid put a headset in and listentogether and have that shared
experience.
Melissa (30:32):
I mean there's so many YouTube there's just so much.
Lori (30:34):
That's right.
So I love that idea of liketaking away the excuses, because
it really is.
There's so many options.
Julie Washington (30:41):
That's right.
There are ways for kids to getaccess to books so many ways.
Lori (30:50):
I think that kind of leads me to think about this, that
idea of like biases, like kindof, as an educator, I have to
check my biases at the door,right Like it's.
I have to think about this in alike we started off the
conversation in a reallystrength-based way and how can I
make it happen?
If it's not happening, how canI support this effort, rather
than thinking like in adetrimental way, which I know is
(31:13):
like such a challenge whenyou're in the mix every single
day?
So we'll put it out there welove you teachers.
It's hard.
Julie Washington (31:21):
It's also a challenge when it's your life
orientation.
So if you believe this aboutkids who use language in a
certain way or who look acertain child, you can't learn,
(31:59):
I promise you.
All the teachers in the roomwill say well, of course I
believe that.
So it's hard to changesomething that you don't know is
an issue for you.
It's hard to change somethingthat you don't know is an issue
for you.
So in some ways, at first youhave to identify your biases and
once you identify them, thenwork on changing them.
You know, many years ago, when Iwas in Michigan and I still
(32:35):
have these data and maybesomeday in some life I'll
published them we gave teachers,parents and children the same
survey and we called it aself-efficacy survey, and we
asked them all the samequestions and the questions were
things like does this child, ordo you or does your child, have
the potential to go on tocollege?
Will your child be a collegegraduate?
Will this child be a collegegraduate?
And these were kids inkindergarten, first and second
(32:56):
grade, and what we learned wasthat teachers viewed kids'
potential based on their currentperformance.
So even if you were in firstgrade, if you were struggling
with reading, the teacher saidon this survey this child is not
going to go on to college.
Oh my God, then what is thepoint of continuing to school?
(33:18):
Move on and become a collegegraduate.
So that's a bias that not onlyinfluences your thinking, but it
will absolutely influence theway you instruct this child.
Research on teacherexpectations talk about them as
(33:42):
self-fulfilling prophecies thatif you believe this about
children, it becomes propheticbecause it influences the way
that you instruct them.
So these are not glib.
You need to change your biases.
Unimportant issues they areabsolutely critical to the
outcomes and the future of thechildren who are sitting in
(34:03):
front of you.
And I imagine the language playsa huge part in that because,
like you said earlier, and Iimagine the language plays a
(34:31):
huge part in that because, likeyou said earlier, if it's a
language variation seen as lowprestige, like you've mentioned,
what does that are what yourfuture is going to be and that
has significant consequences fornot only overall academic
outcomes but for whether ateacher actually believes that
children can read or will learn.
Melissa (34:42):
And so and that just kind of broke my heart, because
I mean you saying even in, likekindergarten, first grade, but
we still need to teach themExactly.
Julie Washington (34:52):
And we need for that teaching to not be
perfunctory.
I'm teaching them because I'mgetting paid to teach them.
It needs to be.
I'm teaching them so that thischild will have the best
possible outcomes that he or shecan have and will be able to go
on and do the things they wantto do in their life.
That's what we're doing asteachers.
(35:13):
As a university instructor,it's clear to me that I have
these eager undergrads sittingin front of me who someday want
to be doing what I'm doing orthings that I have done, and my
job is to prepare them for that.
And when they come to thatprocess with different kinds of
(35:34):
skills and abilities andchallenges, then I have to
change what I'm doing with thatstudent in order to be sure that
they get the content in theclass.
And I know that that's my joband I know teachers know it's
their job too.
But this issue of what are yourbiases?
What do you really think aboutthe students sitting in front of
(35:55):
you?
How does their language useinfluence what you think?
Lori (36:00):
It makes me think so much of the uh opportunity myth from
TNTP, where they found that thefour key resources that students
need in their daily schoolexperiences are grade level,
appropriate assignments, stronginstruction, deep engagement and
what we're talking about highexpectations teachers who
(36:22):
believe that students can meetgrade level standards.
And that always strikes me right.
Like I send my kid off tosoccer practice three times a
week, do I send her with a coachwho thinks that she's not going
to be able to meet thestandards?
And if that she's not, thestandards of the play, the
practice, the game and if she'snot, then I I put my faith in
(36:44):
the coach that he's going toteach her, not that he's going
to say, well, I guess you'rejust not going to keep playing
soccer right Like, we're goingto just teach you what you need
to know.
Like you said, julie, we'regoing to practice it right and
we're going to keep trying.
We're going to keep learningtogether.
But my expectation is thatyou're going to learn how to do
(37:06):
this skill or this thing andI'll keep teaching you how to do
it, because I think you can andbecause I'm teaching you how to
do it Right.
Julie Washington (37:15):
And I'm going to teach every child in front of
me to play soccer the best thatI can and the best that they
can.
They can, yeah Right.
But you know, rod Page, who wasone of our former secretaries
of education, I, those studentsare getting the same high
quality instruction as theirstudents are with more resources
(37:56):
, because those low expectationsare a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Melissa (38:01):
I always put my teacher hat on.
You know, like, as a teacher,I'm just wondering, like, what
do I do now, right, like if I,if I want to learn more?
Julie, do you have anyrecommendations for teachers of
where they can go to learn aboutdifferent language variations,
african American Englishspecifically?
Julie Washington (38:18):
Yeah, sure, I mean, there are a few of us out
here who are doing this work.
It's not just me.
There are a number of us whoare doing it.
There are a number of us whoare doing it, and so if you look
for those people, the work thatthey're doing, you know Julie
Washington, lakeisha Johnson,brandi Gatlin Nash, nicole
(38:45):
Patton, terry Jana Edding at LSU, monique Mills, who's at the
University of Houston.
There are a bunch of us who arelooking at these issues with
children in very different ways,and some of us who are in the
trenches trying to change it,like Ryan Lee James, who was a
student of mine and who's nowout there in the trenches in
Atlanta trying to influenceoutcomes.
There are a bunch of us who aredoing this.
(39:05):
So there is us who are doingthis.
So there is go to the research.
The research is there.
The lists of features are there.
How they influence language andspelling and reading and
writing are all out there, andso you can look for those Also.
I learned and they are I don'tthink they're, you know, like
(39:26):
letting people know.
Well, enough is the LAUSD, theLos Angeles Unified School
District, has a program calledum.
Oh, I know, I'm not going toremember it because I'm talking.
Melissa (39:38):
I think we wrote it down.
Is it the Academic EnglishMastery Program?
That's it.
Julie Washington (39:42):
The Academic English Mastery Program.
So on their website they havetaken all these different
language variationsHawaiian-influenced English,
spanish-influenced English,african-american English and
listed the differences that youwill see in those language
(40:06):
variations from general AmericanEnglish, and I think that's a
fantastic resource.
And California, you know whichI've been here now for two years
is so diverse, and so there'sso much linguistic diversity
here, and so the schools areencountering it every day, and
(40:26):
we're not just talking aboutkids who speak other languages,
we're talking about children whohave within language variation,
so they use American English ina way that is different in
their communities, and so Ithink that's a great resource.
But teachers should also bereading.
Like.
You came to me because of anarticle and we wrote it.
(40:47):
I was happy American Educatorapproached me about writing it
and I was really happy to do itbecause of the wide audience
that it has among teachers.
And so Mark and I got togetherMark Seidenberg, and wrote this
article, and we were both veryexcited because we knew that our
target audience is not just ourfriends, fellow researchers,
(41:12):
but also the teachers that we'retrying to influence, and this
is a publication that teachersread.
Lori (41:19):
Yeah Well, I'm linking everything.
I know it's so hard.
I'm linking everything and Ihave the resource from the LAUSD
that has some great printables.
So just a little plug there foreducators listening it's linked
in the show notes.
Check it out, there's someprintables.
But also in the article thatwe're talking about here with
(41:39):
Julie, there is a table thathelps us understand the key
features of African-AmericanEnglish.
If you're looking for aresource for yourself, just to
kind of start with, I think it'sa really nice little like
introduction overview to it andthen you can go a little bit
deeper.
So quick plug for that, Julie.
Is there anything that we'remissing that you'd like to share
(42:00):
that you just feel compelled tosay as we close out this
podcast?
Julie Washington (42:05):
Yeah, the only thing I really want to say is I
don't want teachers to getoverwhelmed by the information,
because I realize how hardthey're working.
They have always been workinghard and are working harder
still in the face of thechallenges that the pandemic
created, and so you know this isnot a.
(42:29):
You need to work harder, harder, harder.
This is not what thatconversation is about.
This conversation is about youknow.
You know we have a science ofreading.
Many teachers are stilllearning it.
Some of them already know it,and what we're asking you is to
look at the children who aresitting in front of you and
differentiate the science ofreading based on what those
(42:53):
students' needs are, whethertheir students are
African-American, american,indian, latino or Latinx,
whatever the challenges are orwhatever the student looks like
in front of you.
Take some time to figure outhow your instruction might be
(43:13):
impacted and see it as somethingthat you can do to make reading
less cognitively difficult forchildren.
We're not asking you to changechildren.
We're asking you to adapt yourinstruction to include them.
Lori (43:30):
What struck me, julia, from an earlier part of this
conversation is when you saidwe're essentially not taking
away or changing what studentsare learning.
It's how we are teaching, andyou know you might teach it one
way to everyone and then realize, oh my gosh, this group of
students needs a little bit more, or these kids need a little
(43:52):
bit more, so you're going tochange your approach there.
Right, and that's where I thinkI'm struck is we're not saying
change what you're doing, thewhat stays the same.
That's that I think I'm struckis we're not saying change what
you're doing, the what stays thesame.
That's that body of reading,science, research, that's right.
I just can't say that enough.
That's what's really strikingme.
I took a nice note while youwere talking.
Melissa (44:12):
But it's how they get there, that's right.
Yeah, we'll make such a puzzlepiece, right, it's how we help
them get there.
Julie Washington (44:19):
Yep, yes, yes.
And one more thing I would wantto say and I've said it over
and over again and I just wantto punctuate it Children are not
blank slates.
They do not come to schoolknowing nothing.
They know a lot, they have alot of skills, and it's
incumbent upon us to figure outwhat those skills are and how we
(44:41):
can leverage them to help themlearn to read.
They know so much and they havea lot of linguistic expertise.
It is not always in thelanguage of the classroom or the
language of print which is moreimportant.
And so what they know and whatwe need them to know, we're
extending what they know.
We're not erasing what theyknow, so we're not trying know.
(45:01):
We're extending what they know.
We're not erasing what theyknow, so we're not trying to get
rid of what you already know.
We're trying to extend what youknow to include what we're
trying to teach you.
Lori (45:11):
Why do you do what you love for education and for
literacy?
Julie Washington (45:16):
I do it because it's important.
I do it because it's importantand I know that the children
that we are interested in areunderserved, understudied and we
need to know so much morebecause they're struggling not
only now, but we know how muchthey will struggle in the future
unless we get this right.
Lori (45:40):
Well, we are beyond grateful for you being here
today.
It was a true honor.
We just adore your work andthank you for being here.
We're just really grateful.
I don't know what else to sayother than thank you.
Julie Washington (45:52):
Thank you, it was so much fun, thank you.
Lori (45:59):
Thanks for listening.
Literacy lovers, To stayconnected with us, sign up for
our email list atliteracypodcastcom.
Melissa (46:07):
And to keep learning together.
Join the Melissa and Lori LoveLiteracy Podcast Facebook group
and be sure to follow us onInstagram and Twitter.
Lori (46:17):
If this episode resonated with you, take a moment to share
with a teacher friend or leaveus a five star rating and review
on Apple podcasts.
Melissa (46:27):
Just a quick reminder that the views and opinions
expressed by the hosts andguests of the Melissa and Lori
Love Literacy podcast are notnecessarily the opinions of
Great Minds PBC or its employees.
Lori (46:39):
We appreciate you so much and we're so glad you're here to
learn with us.
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