May 6, 2025 • 50 mins
Episode 209 from November 8, 2024
Chase Young discusses the implementation of Reader's Theater in the classroom, providing a detailed framework for the process. He emphasizes the importance of structured practice, fluency, and expression, as well as the benefits of engaging students in dramatic reading. Reader's Theater can be implemented in ELA and other subject areas with grade-level texts. Reader's Theatre improves reading skills and transfers skills to other texts.
Takeaways
- Structured practice is essential for achieving fluency and expression in Reader's Theater.
- Reader's Theater can be integrated with other subjects, providing opportunities for vocabulary and morphology instruction.
- Choosing challenging, grade-level texts is important for meeting grade-level expectations and supporting students' fluency and comprehension.
- Repetition plays a significant role in scaffolding and supporting students' fluency and expression in Reader's Theater. Reader's Theatre is an effective tool for improving reading skills and fluency.
Resources
- Meta analysis - super duper effect size 1.23
- Readers Theatre Plus Comprehension and Word Study 2017
- Free Readers’ Theater Scripts at The Best Class - Chase Young’s website
- Rumpelstiltskin Readers’ Theater Script
- The Methods of Repeated Readings - J. Samuels The Reading Teacher
- More Readers' Theater Scripts at JustTwoTeachers
We answer your questions about teaching reading in The Literacy 50-A Q&A Handbook for Teachers: Real-World Answers to Questions About Reading That Keep You Up at Night.
Grab free resources and episode alerts! Sign up for our email list at literacypodcast.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lori (00:01):
Fluency is the bridge between word recognition and
reading comprehension, butsometimes teaching fluency feels
like one more thing to add toan already jam-packed reading
schedule.
Activities like Reader'sTheater sound like a fun way to
have students practice fluency.
Melissa (00:16):
And in this episode, author and researcher Chase
Young explains how Reader'sTheater is not only fun and easy
to implement, but alsoeffective, according to research
.
You will also get practicaltips for using Reader's Theatre
to improve your students'fluency.
Lori (00:35):
Hi teacher friends.
I'm Lori and I'm Melissa.
We are two educators who wantthe best for all kids, and we
know you do too.
Melissa (00:44):
We worked together in Baltimore when the district
adopted a new literacycurriculum.
Lori (00:49):
We realized there was so much more to learn about how to
teach reading and writing.
Melissa (00:55):
Lori, and I can't wait to keep learning with you today.
Lori (01:00):
Hi, chase, welcome back to the podcast.
Chase Young (01:02):
It is great to be back.
Thanks for having me.
Lori (01:06):
Yeah, and thanks for wearing your special shirt that
you talked about the last timeyou were on the podcast.
We appreciate that.
Chase Young (01:12):
Just for y'all Job kick.
Melissa (01:15):
All right, let's jump right in with Reader's Theater.
If I'm a teacher who has neverheard of Reader's Theater ever
I've never done it with my classCan you just give us a brief
overview of what it is and whatare the steps that I would need
to take in my classroom toimplement it?
Chase Young (01:31):
Sure, the beauty of Reader's Theater is it's very
easy and very effective.
So the easiest way to describeit is just groups of kids
dramatically reading a text,performing it, and the key is
they need a structured practicein order to achieve mastery and
read with fluency and be able toentertain their audiences.
(01:55):
So basically, you got kidsdoing a play, but not really a
play.
They don't dress up, there's noprops, they don't memorize
their lines.
The only thing that they'reentertaining the audience with
is their awesome voices.
So it reminds me of PitchPerfect, but we won't take that
(02:15):
sidebar in this conversation,okay, All right, yeah, we don't
have the time.
Lori (02:19):
I love that.
I love that, as a teacher, weget a bang for our buck right
away with this.
You said it's very effective.
I know we're going to talkabout that in a little bit, but
it's just so unusual that ineducation, we would get a really
quick bang for our buck.
So do you have any tips for howto make it successful?
I'm thinking timelines likewhat should I be thinking about
(02:42):
if I'm wanting to implement thisin my classroom?
Chase Young (02:44):
Okay, good, um, like, what should I be thinking
about if I'm wanting toimplement this in my classroom?
Okay, good.
So, um, to start off with um,you know, depending on your
grade level, you have to thinkabout those things the context
of your classroom, um, the whatyour students like as far as the
scripts you're going to select.
So let's just break it downlike this Um, we typically we
use like a five day format.
So on Monday in preparation, wego through, you know, and find
(03:13):
some scripts.
The best class dot org is mysite where you can get a couple
hundred of those and what you dois you just kind of look and
say what would my students likeand you pick enough scripts to
match the number of students inyour class.
So that way you're not alldoing one script.
You have small groups.
It's like a small group, wholegroup activity, which is awesome
because you are then free towork with those small groups
(03:34):
throughout the week.
So on Monday you have yourscripts, you introduce them and
the kids raise your hand to say,yep, that's the one I want to
be in.
And that's how the groups areformed.
It's essentially based oninterest and, in some cases,
based on who wants to be withwho, whatever, who cares, as
long as they're excited to do it, let them, you know, let them
(03:56):
pair up in friendship.
So then on that Monday theykind of they take it home and
they think about who they wantto be, and really it's about
understanding the whole textitself, like getting an overall
feel for it, the meaning, thatkind of thing.
And the next day they come in,on Tuesday and they sit with
(04:18):
their groups and they selecttheir parts.
So they pick their parts.
They don't get what they wantand they cry and you know you'll
, you give them a hug and tellthem it's going to be okay, and
you do some rock paper scissorsand you figure it all out.
Now the first week is a littlerough because it's new to them.
But the beautiful part is, asthey learn this framework, um,
(04:38):
they get in that routine.
So the only thing that changesare the scripts, which is great.
Um, so they learn this routineand they realize that they don't
always get what they want andthat's just life.
So on that Tuesday, once theyselect their parts, they focus
on decoding and word recognition.
So they look at their own partand they just attempt to read it
(05:00):
Maybe circle or underline wordsthey don't know that they can
work with the teacher on, andyou kind of have to work them
through that to build theirautomaticity.
So we don't want them focusingon expression or anything else.
It's like let's learn how toread these words, okay, and that
may take a while, you know.
It may take some one-on-onework, it may take small group
(05:22):
work at some other time, maybehelp at home, but then hopefully
by Wednesday they at least knowthe words.
So on Wednesday is when westart focusing on this
automaticity and introduction toprosody.
So the expressive part of it andexpression is fun is because
(05:44):
you are thinking about themeaning of the text.
How am I supposed to read this?
What is the author's message?
What are they trying to convey?
So they truly have to have agood understanding and it's it's
an indicator that they'recomprehending if they're reading
out loud with good expression.
So you're coaching them usingterms like hey, what if we read
it like this?
And then eventually yourstudents start to coach each
(06:06):
other because they hear that sooften.
So they're like hey, maybe weshould read it like this.
Hey, I think he's really angry,let's do this super angry voice
or whatever, and so they workwith each other.
They work with you on Wednesdayto get that expression going,
and then on Thursday,essentially a practice
performance, um, where theystand up and you're listening
(06:27):
and making sure everyone's goingto be successful.
Because that's really the key,the key about reader seaters we
want to make sure that they aregoing to stand up there and be
awesome.
Uh, because this is aconfidence building, and not
only the skills that they'relearning and developing, but it
also builds confidence becausethey get to read aloud, with
prosody and like a good reader,and some of these kids have
(06:48):
never done that before.
And that's what's wonderfulabout giving them support and
practice throughout the week sothat they then can be awesome
when we come to Friday, which isthe grand performance, that's
when you invite everybody tocome watch these, these
thespians show off their readingskills and or you know you can
(07:09):
take it on the road you go, bustout classroom doors.
It's like we're here to do reada stater, and you know they
can't say no after you come inwith that kind of enthusiasm.
Lori (07:18):
That's right.
That's right.
I'm thinking like like justbombarding the front office.
You know, like your whole classgoing in and being like we are
doing this script today.
Chase Young (07:26):
Yes, yes, we have actually stood.
There was like a little step infront of the library that went
along right to the front doorsand we stood and we performed
for people walking in and thatwas just great too, I mean.
And the front office is alsoamazing because they're always
there.
There's always somebody thereif you can't find an audience.
(07:46):
It's really fun to plan thesefor walkthroughs, like for when
you're administrators, because,honestly, you're just sitting in
the back and all your kidssound great and they're having a
good time and you clearly havedone the work throughout the
week, so that then you couldjust celebrate all that they
learned.
So that's kind of a basicMonday through Friday framework,
With a couple of things inbetween.
(08:09):
You know, it's really good tosend them home with their
scripts so they can practicewith somebody.
And, and you know, big tipnumber one is make extra copies,
because they won't bring themback and you can either be
really mad and frustrated everysingle day when they don't or
you can just be like go to thefolder.
Lori (08:29):
Go to the extras bin.
That's what I called it theextras bin the.
Chase Young (08:33):
I have more texts at home.
Now bin right.
More things to read at home,that's lovely.
Melissa (08:40):
Chase, do you always recommend the performance being
for other people?
I'm just thinking likelogistically as a teacher I
might feel like, oh, that feelslike a lot of work.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Chase Young (08:48):
Okay.
So one of the reasons we havesmall groups is so they then can
perform for each other at theend of the week, so that can
just be an internal thing.
For a couple of years I justhad a standing invitation to
parents at 10 o'clock.
Lori (09:07):
We always did our reader's theater on Friday and they
could come if they wanted to.
So I love that.
That's such a great way toinvite parents and caregivers
into your classroom in a waythat feels authentic and
meaningful and also notoverwhelming Like I don't have
to come and stay for two hoursfor coming to stay for 20
minutes.
Chase Young (09:23):
Yeah, and you know parents, they want to help they.
They think they don't know howyou know?
And how how can I get involvedin the school?
And you're right, that's areally easy.
That's low hanging fruit, rightthere, show up, sit in a chair,
listen to your kid and go home.
Lori (09:35):
That's what I was wondering too, as you were
talking and talking about this,Monday through Friday, kind of
procedural um drill or routineto to work through Reader's
Theater Are you thinking 10, 20minutes a day, Like how long
should this take?
I know you mentioned theremight be other times where you
might be pulling a small groupand supporting, so of course
it's going to be fluid, but justkind of for our listeners
(09:55):
thinking I don't know, Chase,how long does this take each day
?
Chase Young (09:59):
Sure, as you get into that routine and it becomes
really well-oiled machine.
It really depends on the lengthof the scripts that you choose,
but typically it's about fiveminutes a day.
And I know five minutes becauseI always set the timer for five
minutes, said read it, rehearseit as many times as you can
(10:21):
within this, within five minutes, because scripts are going to
be different at length, they'llfinish at different times.
They'll annoy you with what doI do now?
Instead, it's I just, you know,set the time and here it goes.
Now, if your scripts are alittle bit longer, you know,
maybe you need seven, eightminutes.
It just really kind of depends.
And a lot of teachers don'twant to do reader's theater
(10:44):
because the length of thescripts and then you got to sit
and listen and they have to goover this.
Well, here's a tip Don't picklong scripts, just don't do it.
I despised long strips as areader, reader, theater advocate
and researcher for over adecade.
I didn't like them.
I liked the shorter ones, thefunny ones, the ones that had
(11:06):
like a little twist.
You know, that just really wasfor entertaining audiences.
Scary stories, I mean thingsthat were not just like hey,
let's take um the three littlepigs, for example, and we're
going to, and that's nice andthat's lovely.
That just wasn't my style.
I, I have it on my script or onmy site and you can you can
certainly download and use it,but it just I love the ones
(11:28):
where they, the kids, couldn'twait for the audience to hear
them, right Like the ones thatwere just like that, have like
that weird twist at the endthat's going to surprise
everybody, or somebody who'sgoing to yell at the end, or
whatever, like, like things,where they're just like so antsy
that they, they can't theirvery existence is is just to
(11:55):
perform every Friday, and socreating that kind of a culture
and getting them that farengaged is really going to be up
to you, the teacher out there,and your students.
It's every every year isdifferent, you know.
I mean, I remember one year Ionly had two girls in my class.
There were a lot of scriptsabout gas.
Melissa (12:14):
I understand that I have a five-year-old boy.
Chase Young (12:19):
Yeah, so the true story of farts is actually on my
website too.
It's nonfiction.
Lori (12:24):
I did see that when we were perusing yeah too, uh, it's
nonfiction.
I did see that when we wereperusing yeah, yeah, not it's
nonfiction and it is nonfiction.
Chase Young (12:30):
It's, it's, uh, it's pretty good.
Now, pu, is that you birdie?
That is, that is fiction.
Lori (12:36):
Okay, noted, noted.
Chase Young (12:39):
Working on our genres, so, but anyway.
So usually between I wouldn'tsay any more than 10 minutes
ever.
Now on performance day,depending on the number of
groups and length.
Again, you know, sometimes theperformances took like 15
minutes.
Another thing I recommend asfar as finding an audience is
just pairing up with thatawesome teacher friend that you
(12:59):
want to talk to on Fridays allthe time and just performing for
each other while you sit in theback and figure out where
you're going to go for happyhour.
Melissa (13:08):
I love that.
That's the way to do it.
I'm curious too.
You mentioned about likegetting the routines down a few
times there, so I just want toconfirm that this is not
something you would do like as aone-time special.
We're just doing this for funthis week, kind of thing but it
sounds like this is somethingyou would do regularly.
Chase Young (13:27):
Yeah, and when we get into the research we can
look at that too, but I willtell you that I don't know of a
study out there that was lessthan six weeks long, so it was
about a month and a half.
Most of the studies I did wereeither a year or at least a
semester 18 weeks.
So, yeah, if you just want toperform one on Halloween, don't
(13:47):
expect some of the results thatwe're going to be talking about.
Lori (13:50):
That's awesome to know and really helpful, although your
site does have some really fun,like I know, you have a fun
Valentine's script, so I thinkthat those are opportunities
right To continue what you'vealready built.
Chase Young (14:01):
Yeah, absolutely, and there's another site.
I's another site.
Um, I don't know if you guysfollow Aaron Grossman.
Um, he's a teacher out in Reno.
Melissa (14:10):
I think someone just put that on our, on our is it
the two teachers?
Chase Young (14:13):
Yeah, just two teachers.
Lori (14:15):
I have it.
I have it in my phone, you gotballoons.
I know I'm so excited about it.
I actually I have it in myphone because I was so impressed
with it.
It's called just twoteacherscom.
Chase Young (14:25):
So, uh, his readers reader scripts are mainly about
content.
Uh, he has math, social studies, science, all of that.
So, uh, mine are more aboutmake you laugh, Um, and you know
classics, and uh, and his siteis really cool because you're
learning things along the way.
I mean, besides the true storyof farts, there's, there's,
there's, plenty of always a timeto learn about that.
Lori (14:47):
Please don't, please don't put yourself down, don't skip
that one over?
Chase Young (14:50):
Yeah, exactly, but yeah so.
So check those out.
That's a wonderful way tointegrate, and I mean doing a
script on the digestive system.
I mean, come on, I know whatpart I'd want to be.
Lori (15:04):
Yeah, 100%.
I mean also I'm just thinking,I mean in science class you're
going to learn about, hopefully,the body systems.
It's a perfect place to eitherextend or build different
knowledge right, and make it fun.
Make it fun.
So I don't think this has to belimited to ELA class and we can
integrate so much right.
(15:25):
We can integrate vocabulary andword meanings and word parts
and sentence structure and somuch more.
Chase Young (15:33):
Absolutely.
And you know, when you startlooking at frameworks for
Reader's Theater, we do haveanother one that we called RT+,
which actually has word studyand vocabulary and reading
comprehension stuff.
Of course that is going.
That's making reader's theaterlike a focal point in your
classroom, you know.
So that is then extending thetime that you're going to devote
(15:54):
to it.
Now, obviously, you'll behaving like vocabulary
instruction and and differentthings, so it's covering the
full gamut, but it is kind ofcenters around those scripts.
So we do have that.
That article came out in 2017in the Reading Teacher and
essentially it has the samefluency goals, but then it also
has things you can do forvocabulary and then things you
(16:17):
can do for making meaning eachday as well.
Melissa (16:21):
And that's called Reader's Theater Plus.
Chase Young (16:23):
Yeah, the article was Reader's.
Theater Plus Word Study andComprehension.
Lori (16:28):
Cool, we'll link all of these in the show notes If
you're listening and you'reoverwhelmed.
You're driving, you don't havea pen, don't worry, we got you
in the show notes.
Chase Young (16:36):
Yeah, please don't be writing things down while
you're driving.
Lori (16:44):
Okay.
So we really want to kind ofextend and dig into just exactly
what you just said, likethinking about those other parts
of literacy, and we know thatyou have a ton of free scripts
on your website, like you said,as well as other cool resources
that we just mentioned.
So, melissa, I'm going to handit to you now.
Melissa (16:57):
Yeah, so we picked one of your scripts was
Rumpelstiltskin.
We figured that the audiencewould know that it's a pretty
well-known fairy tale and we'regoing to just share some
specific parts.
Lori's going to read the part.
I'm going to pick out somethings that we thought you know
vocabulary.
Lori's going to read the part.
I'm going to pick out somethings that we thought you know
vocabulary, or some syntax thatwe thought would be particularly
tricky for kids, that we mightstop and talk about with
students, and then you can justreact to it and tell us if we're
(17:20):
on the right track.
Chase Young (17:21):
Okay, that sounds good, I will be judgy.
Lori (17:24):
Cool, Be judgy Love that All right.
So here is example one from thescript Rumpelstiltskin,
Narrator one Once there was amiller who was poor but who had
a beautiful daughter.
Melissa (17:41):
Now it happened that he had to go and speak to the king
and in order to make himselfappear important, he said to the
king we were thinking ofvocabulary and morphology here
and we legitimately, I would saynot, we struggled, but we went
back and forth with I don't know, should we, would we stop here,
would we not?
But we picked out the wordmiller just because the whole
(18:01):
text was about the miller or themiller's daughter, right?
So you see that word over andover and over again and we don't
think kids know what a milleris.
Most kids probably don't knowwhat it is.
But we did think they could tapinto some of their morphology.
Just knowing that ER at the endoften does mean someone that
does something right.
So, okay, it gives them a clue.
But we probably would stillneed to give them a little help
(18:24):
with well, what is a mill?
What does it mean for someoneto do that?
So we were thinking like maybeeven showing them a picture of a
mill so they could understandkind of what happens.
That it's, you know, this bigmachine that grinds grain into
flour, so they could kind of geta picture.
Okay, this is what that persondoes, they operate this machine.
(18:45):
But then we also said like it'snot so essential to the story
for them to understand it, butit also is just repeated over
and over that.
They might just feel betterknowing what it is.
Chase Young (18:57):
Right.
All we need, all we need toknow is he has a job right.
It's not unemployed.
Melissa (19:01):
He has a job.
He's someone that doessomething.
Chase Young (19:05):
He does something, he mills.
Lori (19:07):
He mills Exactly.
Chase Young (19:09):
No, I think that's great.
I mean any, any opportunity ifyou are going to extend with
these, with these scripts, thatabsolutely I mean you can look
at your own scope and sequence,you can see how it aligns, you
can look at your content areas,um, all of that.
It's kind of, you know,community, if you're studying
the community or whatever youknow, hundreds years ago you had
(19:30):
to have your Miller, right.
I mean, who could, who could goon without the Miller?
Um, so no, I think I think it'sa great idea to just show them.
These aren't just scripts,these are texts and we can use
them for instructional purposes.
We already have them selected,they're already engaged with
them, and to know more and andand think deeper about them, I
(19:50):
think is really the lovely sideeffect of spending time in text
for a week.
Lori (19:58):
Yeah, that's actually a really good point.
That's a good point.
You're diving into it for fivedays and even if you're spending
five to seven minutes actuallyreading it, you could be
extending it during other times,which then you get an even
bigger bang for your buck.
Chase Young (20:14):
Absolutely yes.
I couldn't agree more because,um, and what?
I encourage teachers to just goahead and start basic, you know
, start with that baby frameworkwhere you just, hey, let's
learn the words, let's learn howto read this expressively,
we'll spend a small amount oftime.
Because you know you're goingto be trial and error with
different scripts and how andintroducing your kids to.
(20:36):
Because you know, the firstweek you got some introverts.
You know, not everybody's likeus and and you kind of it takes
them a minute.
You know I had every year.
I started with a few introvertsand I apologize for this, but
they weren't anymore by the end.
But it, you know that firstweek, it they may not want to
(21:06):
participate and I give them thatoption.
I was like, okay, well, ifyou'd rather just read
independently or whatever, I canfind you a text that you could
read during this time.
You know, every year a couplewould start that way, but by the
second week they were all in.
You know they had a blast, theywere having fun.
And again, you know, when itcomes back to you're picking
things for their interest.
You're also integrating it inother ways.
(21:27):
They're being successful itother ways they're being
successful.
It's, it's motivating, I mean.
So there you go.
Melissa (21:35):
And I would imagine, like if back to our example
about the Miller, if they'rereading it over and over and
over again, and they're readingMiller and Miller, and Miller
and Miller, I am sure you'regoing to have at least one kid
who says what's a Miller?
Chase Young (21:47):
What is a Miller?
Absolutely Every class has gotto have that kid that has about
everything and which is great.
Love the curiosity.
But you know, sometimes it's alittle overwhelming.
But yeah, absolutely, they'regoing to be asking, like, what
in the world is a Miller and who?
You know?
They may think it's like a lastname or something you know.
(22:07):
That may be like, ok, this isjust a person.
But yeah, if you're, if you'reworking on that morphology of ER
or whatever you know that maybe like, okay, this is just a
person, but yeah, if you're, ifyou're working on that
morphology of ER or whateverthat's, that's a perfect time.
Like, I'm a teacher, this is amiller, here's a mill, this is
how it mills, and and I thinkthat's, that's pretty much it.
You know, I love, I love someof the research that's coming
out in small group instruction,where they're saying less is
(22:29):
better, you know, and that right, there is a 30 second lesson.
Lori (22:33):
Yes, that gives so much background knowledge and also
knowledge that can be appliedforward right the ER at the end.
A teacher, someone who teachesMiller, someone who mills.
A driver, someone that drives,a driver, someone who drives,
but it doesn't work foreverything, but maybe it does if
you look at the meaning of themorphology.
So then you can extend thatright.
Chase Young (22:53):
Absolutely.
Yeah, it's great, especially ifyou choose these scripts that
have this incredible vocabulary.
I mean, especially when you'regetting shorter ones, you can
make them more challenging.
That's another thing aboutReader's Theater you guys want
to think about is choosechallenging texts.
If we're going to spend a weekon this, we might choose
(23:15):
something difficult and ideallysomething at grade level, um, so
that those kids who get thesupport for the first time in
their lives stand up and readsomething aloud on grade level
Uh, and that's a wonderful wayfor you know, to meet that grade
level expectation that we wantthem, we want them in texts,
meet that grade levelexpectation that we want them.
We want them in text that aregrade level text.
We want them in that, and thisis one of the ways you can get
(23:38):
them there.
Lori (23:39):
Part of the scaffold is the repetition.
Part of the scaffold is likemaking sure that you're like
talking about it, they'reunderstanding the parts so that
they are fluently reading andhaving that expression to show
the comprehension.
But the repetition is a hugescaffold here and we don't want
to miss that opportunity withnot supplying grade level text
that's so important.
Chase Young (24:01):
And I'll tell you, and if you've ever done readers
here, listeners out there,listen, lori, you're striving
readers.
Those that find reading outloud difficult, those that find
reading in general difficult,will pick the biggest part every
time.
They want to be narrator one,they want to be Lysander, they
want to be the wolf, they wantto be all of these things, and
(24:23):
it's truly because they knowthat they're going to get the
support they need and then theycan.
They can prove to the otherstudents that I am a great
reader Because unfortunately,they, they, they tend to know,
you know, yeah, it's like theopposite of popcorn reading,
where you didn't have a chanceto practice.
Melissa (24:42):
So you get all that anxiety right.
But this is like I will do thattough one because I get to
practice it and I will be ready.
Lori (24:50):
All right, I want to take us to one more part of that
Rumpelstiltskin script.
I know we took a little triparound the world here, but we're
coming back to the script.
I'm going to read one more partfrom it that I think we're
going to look at sentencestructure.
So just kind of pay attention.
This again is the narrator oneand we're going to focus on
sentence structure here.
(25:10):
By daybreak the king wasalready there and when he saw
the gold he was reallyastonished and delighted.
But his heart became only moregreedy.
He had the Miller's daughtertaken into another room full of
straw, which was much larger,and commanded her to spin that
also in one night If she valuedher life.
(25:30):
The girl knew not how to helpherself and was crying when the
door opened again and the littleman appeared and said Three
sentences.
So all of that was Conjunctionjunction.
Three sentences.
Chase Young (25:41):
Wow Right.
Melissa (25:42):
That's right.
Your function is to hold thewhole story together, apparently
, yeah.
And I would imagine I mean youtalked about this might happen
on what like the third day or sothat you're practicing, where
you might point out to themthose commas and how to pause
and really work through that,Because otherwise I could just
see that not being read the wayLori just read it, and just
(26:04):
being read straight through.
Chase Young (26:06):
Oh yes, oh yes.
Melissa (26:08):
Really hard to understand.
Chase Young (26:10):
Well, what's crazy is like punctuation is one of
the only visible prosodic cuesin text.
You know, the rest is kind ofmodeled and learned and
expressed based on meaning, butwith punctuation it tells you
slight pause here.
Exclamation mark, question, youknow, lift your tone, that kind
of thing.
But so yeah, that can beexplicitly taught easily, and
(26:34):
what a great example.
Lori (26:38):
That's why we chose it.
We were like this we, we, wewent through quite a few of your
scripts to really choose somegood ones here.
Melissa (26:44):
Right, Because if you break it down into like those
chunks right, then it feels like, okay, I can handle those
chunks, versus this really longsentence that could feel a
little scary to read aloud.
Chase Young (26:56):
Yeah, yeah, I mean putting them on different lines
with the commas, so you work onphrasing as well as that pausing
.
Great opportunity for that.
Lori (27:05):
Yeah, I mean, I would have the kids be scooping right,
like breaking it out, scoopinglike circling, oh and and and,
oh I see this word and over andover again.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, and theseare really helpful cues for them
, like oh, comma, take a quickbreath and go.
Melissa (27:21):
You know there's a lot of cues that we can teach here
and that's helping them for thisparticular script, but also for
just reading in general.
Right After they're done withthis script, they're taking that
what they just learned fromwhat you all just said to really
complex text.
Chase Young (27:37):
Right, that's like.
The holy grail of teaching istransfer.
You know when they start to useit in other places.
Lori (27:44):
Oh okay, so we could keep going all day.
We won't because we havelimited time here and I think we
should really get to theresearch.
So you are a super coolresearcher and we know that
you've shared that there'sresearch to support Reader's
Theater, so you want to tell usabout it.
Chase Young (28:02):
Sure, absolutely the wonderful thing about
Reader's Theater.
It kind of was derived based onthe fact that we learned that
repeated readings and rehearsaltransfers to other texts like
repeatedly reading one text,actually makes you better at
another.
So as soon as you found outthat it didn't just make you
(28:22):
good at one, you're like this isamazing, this is wonderful.
And that was in the 70s.
We started to see a lot morerepeated readings.
And then, of course, you knowwe're like OK, well, that's kind
of boring, you know, let's addsome authenticity.
Why would anyone you knowrepeatedly read something?
Nowadays you might have ascript for a YouTube video and
narrate over some sort of coyotewalking around in the.
(28:43):
You know, of course, one of thecall centers speeches, poetry,
recitations and, of course,actors.
So here comes a reader'stheater and the research is is
is vast, because you know um, it, it.
It covers a lot, like we haveresearch in gen ed, but we have
(29:04):
research that supports it in inspecial education classrooms.
There was like four fullclassrooms that were involved in
one of the studies that saysthat it worked with them.
Emergent bilinguals have beenstudied.
Title one classrooms have beenstudied.
Reader's theater has beenstudied in Taiwan.
It's from kindergarten topost-secondary.
(29:24):
Reader's theater was actuallyrecently used to help
pronunciation and learningEnglish in Taiwan.
Yeah, I mean there's a lot ofcrazy stuff out there, but I
mean it goes through.
The bulk of the research is inelementary.
There's some really goodresearch in middle school too.
It's a little scant in highschool but then it comes back
(29:48):
into college classrooms.
So we did a study actually in ahigh school classroom using
scripted stories of readerstheater, and that particular
group, the reader seat ortreatment group, significantly
(30:13):
outperformed the control on thereading comprehension.
Um, and that was really cool tosee.
Um, so you know it's like, yeah, but that's kind of cheating.
You know you have other support.
I'm like, well, okay, well,what is?
What is the goal?
Do you want your kids tounderstand the text or is it to
what?
It's not cheating, it'steaching.
(30:34):
You know it's providing support, it's providing a scaffold so
that your students canunderstand the grade level
expectation tests.
Um, so, uh, so it's, it's.
It's pretty amazing and in allof these different contexts and
and things, they've found thatit significantly improves word
recognition automaticity, itsignificantly improves prosody,
(30:57):
it significantly improvesreading comprehension, it
significantly improves attitudetoward reading and in one study
it was kind of like it wasactually Poetry Academy, so they
were performing poetry insteadof scripts.
It was actually Poetry Academy,so they were performing poetry
instead of scripts.
They found that, that LaurieWilfong found that their
attitude, their overall attitudetowards school, had improved
(31:19):
just school in general, and thatis certainly due to the fact
that they are being successful,that they're actually succeeding
and reading a grade level textand being good at it.
And you know, tim Brzezinskisays that every kid should go
home from school having readsomething successfully every day
(31:40):
.
And that's because I mean, if Iwas terrible at something, I
wouldn't go do it every singleday.
You don't see me on thebasketball court.
I'm awful at that and I havethe choice not to go, okay.
But these kids, they don't.
They have to go to school andthey have to spend eight hours
in different subjects, including, you know, language arts,
(32:00):
reading, and they're not good atit and that's a problem.
So that overall attitude startsto shift when they go to a
place and they can excel and dowhat is expected.
So that's, you know, in general, the research says it does a
lot for a lot of things, a lotof different aspects of literacy
(32:24):
.
Melissa (32:25):
I remember you telling us about the study that you did,
where the students didn't eventhink they made gains in reading
because they were just likehaving too much fun, like that
wouldn't work.
I was just having fun.
Chase Young (32:38):
Yeah, I was just having a good time Like we
weren't doing reading.
Well, that study was reallycool.
Actually it was a big study andthen we kind of sliced it in
different directions to look atdifferent things.
The overall study we used theGates-McGinnity reading test,
pre and post, with a few hundredstudents, second graders, who
were participating in Reader'sTheater, and we had a control.
(33:00):
And so the three subtests weredecoding, word knowledge and
reading comprehension.
And when you look at theresults the decoding andoding,
word knowledge and readingcomprehension.
And when you look at theresults, the reading, the
decoding and the reading and theword knowledge were pretty much
the same in both groups, youknow, except one group was doing
reader's theater and the otherone was doing whatever it is
(33:21):
that they were doing.
And then in readingcomprehension, the reader's
theater group outperformedsignificantly the control group,
and a lot of it is due to thisactive type, participating in
literacy, being involved in it,rather than this passive
literacy of where we're justletting it hit us a little bit.
(33:42):
But we're actually on theoffensive, you know, and that's
cool.
So some other results we foundfrom that one is we started just
looking at gender differencesand we saw that through an
analysis that the boys hadsignificantly outperformed the
girls, or all three areasdecoding, word, knowledge and
(34:03):
comprehension and in thetreatment group or in the
control group, that gap remainedfrom pre to post.
The boys were doing much, werenot performing as well, but in
the reader-seer treatment thegap was gone and in some cases
they were outperforming, notsignificantly but just
(34:25):
descriptively.
And it was so cool.
Our research team was like oh mygosh, we have found something
to help boys, you know,participate more in literacy.
And it goes back to what you'resaying, melissa.
You know we, we didn't know whyit was happening.
So I you name, I primarily donumbers.
(34:46):
So I'm a quantitativeresearcher but I was forced into
qualitative because we had tofigure out.
We had to figure out why.
What was about Reader's Theaterthat engaged the boys so well?
And you know we interviewed Idon't know it's like a hundred
boys that participated onReader's Theater and you know
(35:07):
the primary thing was they.
It was a novel activity.
They didn't see it as reading.
You know, we asked the kid andit's like does it make you a
better reader?
Why, or why not?
And he was like no, becauseit's fun.
But yet, but yet you know, whenyou look at his growth, it's
like you have made wonderfulgains.
And you know, and this one boyin particular, that I was
(35:31):
observing, oh my gosh, you couldtell that he was just.
He would have been one of myfavorites because it was a huge
behavior problem and he wasdying to be the big bad wolf,
like dying.
He was on the floor likebegging and I was like, please,
(35:52):
teacher, give it to him, pleasegive it to him, give it to him,
you know.
And he was selected despite hisbeing under the chair and but
he did so amazing.
And there's actually researchout there, uh, conducted on a
reader's Theater in classroomsthat have students with
behavioral concerns.
So it is being used as like awarm-up activity in dyslexia at
(36:21):
small groups and it's being usedeverywhere and just seeing that
behavioral concerns just kindof diminished because we're
leveraging the fact that thesekids are going to be loud,
they're going to be boisterous,they're going to be moving,
they're going to be, you knowjust, and that's what we want,
(36:45):
that's, that's absolutely whatwe want.
These kids, kids were made forit, you know, we give them that
opportunity to.
You know, I couldn't sit downand read a book in my classroom
when I was little.
Well, you know, typically myteacher just made me pass out
papers.
I don't know, I don't know why,but she loved me because I sat
(37:06):
at her desk all the time.
She loved me.
Lori (37:09):
Imagine if you had Reader's Theater, I know at her
desk all the time she loved me.
Chase Young (37:10):
Imagine if you had reader's theater, I know it
would have been phenomenal, sofun, Just loved it.
But you know, learning is tooquiet sometimes.
You know it doesn't always haveto be crazy and wild, but it
should be sometimes.
You know, and in order to reachall of the students, and, and,
and, and even those that aren't,you know, behavior concerns are
(37:32):
still making gains too, incomprehension, in fluency, in
attitude, motivation, confidence, all of these things.
Melissa (37:41):
And it's very structured.
At the same time, it's not.
Lori (37:44):
Yeah, it's not chaos, it's structured chaos.
Chase Young (37:48):
It is, yeah, absolutely.
We create a little boundary andwe let the chaos ensue, correct
?
Lori (38:06):
We just, yeah, it's controlled chaos was categorized
as learning disabled.
Um, third grade student who wasworking on accuracy, coming
like and I just was like, justbring her to my house, I will
work with her.
And we started doing reader'stheater and with grade level
(38:26):
texts from some from yourwebsite, some other ones that I
could find out there, just basedon her interests.
And then at some point I addedsome other informational texts
and we started doing somepartner reading, paragraph
shrinking.
But I implemented that partnerreading routine with the
Reader's Theater scripts ongrade First.
(38:47):
We got the routines.
We had so much fun and then weadded on that layer of the
paragraph shrinking to about sixweeks in.
So six weeks of reader's theaterand then six weeks additional
with the paragraph shrinking andshe went from 57 words per
minute to 100 words uh, oralreading fluency in just like
(39:10):
three months.
And so this, I mean this works.
You know, I mean, if you need,if you need to, to kind of think
about that, that's huge.
I know that's a one-on-onesituation, but it was not a long
time.
It was maybe 15 minutes a day,three times a week at the most.
So, um, think about the powerwithin a whole group of kids.
Chase Young (39:30):
Yeah, and that's the wonderful thing about this
small whole group, small groupactivity.
They're all doing the samething but they're working in
small groups with differenttexts and you are free to help
them as needed.
You meet with those groupsevery day, sit down, see where
their struggles are, talk aboutthe meaning.
I mean, you're free to moveamongst those groups and if you
(39:51):
identify a group that's really,really struggling then, yeah,
you may want to find anothertime in during the day to just
work with them.
All the way through the script,you know, identify what, what,
what those struggles are, andand try to remediate that so
that they can have success on onperformance day.
Melissa (40:08):
Yeah, I just have one more question about the research
before we close this thing out.
So you already mentioned it,but I just want to stamp it
because I have heard a lot ofskeptics of readers, theater,
who mentioned that, well, theyjust get better at that script
or that, whatever it is they'rereading, and I think the same
goes for repeated readings, likethey just get better at what
(40:29):
they're reading but that doesn'ttranslate.
You've already given manyexamples of where it does
actually translate to othertexts, but I'm just wondering,
if I don't know if a teacher ishearing that from their
principal or from anotherteacher, or it's like how would
you say they should handle thatsituation or give them some more
ammunition?
Chase Young (40:50):
I think they should print out Jay Samuel's article,
published in the readingteacher in 1979, called the
method of repeated readings,which is where it is visually,
graphically represented, of howthe transfer works.
For example, there's a little,there's a, there's a graph, and
it shows a kid who their wordscorrect per minute has increased
(41:14):
throughout repeated readingsand how their errors decrease.
And then the next line isactually that same kid reading a
more challenging text and youcan see the words correct per
minute starts higher and theerrors start lower.
And they do this again andagain and the same phenomenon
occurs.
Therefore, the repeated readingitself is helping them learn
(41:38):
how to read.
It's helping develop theirfluency on other texts as well.
Fluency in general, they'rebuilding their fluency.
You can't, I mean think aboutit.
Fluency in general, they'rebuilding their fluency.
You can't, I mean think aboutit.
So I haven't read a text.
Let's just say I haven't readthis, my Quotable Kid book.
Right, that's sitting on thistable.
Am I going to have to practiceit?
(42:00):
No, I'm a fluent reader.
I am now fluent.
I am fluent at almost any textyou put in front of me, not the
New England Journal of Medicine,but I certainly.
There is that transfer effect.
It's practice, it's.
You know, practicing a trumpet,practicing driving, practicing
(42:20):
cartwheels, you get better at it.
In general you can do acartwheel outside, inside on a
trampoline.
You know you don't have torepeatedly practice on the
trampoline, then repeatedlypractice on the floor.
Melissa (42:32):
Maybe a balance beam will be tough.
That would be.
That would be the New EnglandJournal of Medicine.
Chase Young (42:37):
The Journal of Medicine of cartwheels right
there.
But I would take a look at thatand show them that we've known
this for a very long time and ingeneral.
You know, when we look at theresearch specifically on
reader's theater, there's a lotof really solid work in that
area, with rigorous methods withreliable results that say, hey,
(43:03):
you know, we control for this,we control for this.
I mean, our study usedsomething called propensity
score matching where it'sacceptable by what works,
clearinghouse as a method todetermine effectiveness of
instructional strategies and itessentially matches treatment
and control groups.
A person in this group you havea male that's in special
(43:24):
education who is Title IHispanic and scored this on the
pretest, and it matches that tosomebody in the control and if
there's no match, it eliminatesthem.
So it's our best attempt tomimic randomization and also
make sure that we have apples toapples.
So there's a lot of solidresearch out there that says it
(43:46):
works.
It's not just people going, wow, you know, my kids really liked
it and that's lovely, you know.
But where I focus is impact,student impact on what are the
outcomes.
And when you see things working, then do it, especially
something that's only fiveminutes, and then here's more
ammunition for those teacherssay you know what research is
(44:07):
saying it's working in all ofthese different contexts.
I'd like to at least test itout in my classroom.
I will do pre post and I willprogress monitor it with you
know, curriculum basedmeasurement or dibbles or
whatever that you happen to use,and then I'll come back to you
in six weeks.
I would say give it six weeksand just see what the results
are.
Show that principle and if it'snot working for them, great, do
(44:35):
something else.
You know, maybe it's just thatclass.
You know I w I would recommenddoing an experiment on your own
and and give it the time.
Um, make sure you fidelity,structure support, uh,
challenging texts.
Again, they're probably notgoing to grow.
If you're going to be choosing,you know um cat in the hat for
your fifth graders.
But so you know, with all ofthose elements in place, I just
can't imagine you not seeinggrowth.
(44:58):
And another thing that ReaderCedar does is it has inherent
accountability, like it may bethe only time that they're
actually reading something thatday.
Yeah, I was really good atavoiding reading at school.
I can make up beautifulresponses.
I just pick one sentence outand just make a wonderful
personal connection and justfool that teacher.
(45:19):
They're like in tears from myreflection and I didn't read a
single thing, you know.
But with Reader's Theater theyhave to.
Lori (45:27):
I love the sports analogies.
I think that's really helpfulfor listeners too like thinking
about okay, if we teach someoneto swim in a pool that transfers
to many other bodies of water,You're not going to not know how
to swim when you get to thosethings.
You're not going to be like, ohgosh, this doesn't have
chlorine in it, so I'm not goingto be able to swim.
You're going to be able to swimin the other bodies of water,
(45:53):
whatever they might be.
There might be differentchallenges, there might be some
waves, there might be, I don'tknow, some mucky things.
I don't, I don't even like tothink about it.
Right, but you still know howto swim or grow Sandy bottom use
what you know.
Oh, I know so gross, I agreewith you.
(46:14):
But yeah, I mean, you stillknow how to swim and you can
still apply those skills thatyou have.
You don't lose them.
I think the thing that I thinkabout is, like that's where the
role of the teacher is soimportant, because that is where
the teacher can help make thatpractice really, really good
practice.
Right, it needs to be accurate.
We know that you said that wasthe first step.
We know that they need to bereading with expression to be
able to show that theyunderstand it.
So that's where, like that,that teacher special stuff comes
(46:35):
in and you're teaching thatscript so that then they can
apply it.
Because if I'm doing the, youknow a freestyle stroke and I'm
just I'm just doing it and Idon't know how to turn my head
to get air appropriately, thenin another body of water I'm
going to probably struggle withthat skill.
Right, so I have to make sureexactly it doesn't matter where.
So we have to make sure thosethings are firmed up in the
(46:57):
original place so that we canthen go transfer them.
Um, and I, I like to think ofit like perfect practice makes
perfect.
I don't, I don't always lovethe idea of perfection, Like you
know, but I think that, interms of practice, if we're, if
we're teaching freestyleincorrectly in a pool, it's not
going to be done well anywhereelse either.
So you know, same with yourbasketball.
(47:19):
You're not taught correctly howto do a layup.
You're not, you're just notgoing to be able to do it
Doesn't matter the hoop, youknow.
So perfect practice makesperfect.
That's where the teacher comesin, to make sure that the
students are doing it to theirvery best and doing it with that
accuracy and with that fluentreading that they need to be
doing so that they can transferit.
Chase Young (47:38):
Right, and that's a common misconception too, as
far as, like readers who arelike, well, they try it, and
they're like, well, they're outthere and they're not doing very
well, Well, you're very muchinvolved in it, you know it
doesn't, doesn't make itsuccessful because they can do
it on their own.
They're not going to be able todo it on their own.
That's why you're there.
So you know, don't don't expectthem to just naturally fall
(47:58):
into these groups and workthrough the, the, the five steps
or whatever, and and and besuccessful.
Lori (48:06):
I would even say if you're a teacher listening and you're
like this, you're starting thisout, structure your groups.
Put a kid who you know is goingto be like the, the bossy
teacher, in in each group, Right, so that you, you have a
presence from the get-go.
Chase Young (48:21):
We like to call them emergent leaders emergent
leaders.
Lori (48:23):
I'm sorry, but you know what I mean.
Chase Young (48:26):
I do.
Yeah, absolutely.
You can structure your groupsMaybe it's not the first while
based on interest Maybe it iswho's going to work well
together.
Lori (48:35):
Oh my gosh.
So many great tips today.
We can't even thank you enough.
Is there anything that youhaven't said want to say?
Been dying to get out thereabout Reader's Theater, and this
is your time.
Chase Young (48:46):
It's easy and it's effective.
Lori (48:53):
And your kids will enjoy it.
So do it.
I think you just titled yourepisode easy, enjoyable,
effective.
Just do it.
Melissa (48:57):
There it is.
Chase Young (48:58):
You're welcome.
Melissa (49:00):
And your website again is thebestclassorg correct.
Chase Young (49:04):
Yes, yes, and you'll see the scripts on there.
They're in alphabetical orderand the little parentheses is
the number of parts.
That way you don't have toclick on each script to figure
out oh, I need one for six.
I need one for six.
Lori (49:15):
You can just control F, put in six and see which one you
might want to use mom friendand I was teaching her how to do
fluent, teach, teach readers,theater and teach this like
protocol with her little guy forthe summer.
And um she said, oh, I wentthrough, I found all the ones
(49:36):
with the least amount of parts,cause it's just us or just our
family, and I took printed allthe fart ones and I was like
great, she's like farts, boogers, they're all they're all
printed.
Chase Young (49:48):
I wrote that one personally.
Well, my wife and I co-wrote it.
Oh, I love that, yeah.
Lori (49:53):
Yeah, so I mean going to good use all over the world.
Thank you, Love it.
Chase Young (49:57):
Well, thank you so much for having me.
You guys are awesome.
Love how you get the word out.
Yeah, thank you.
Lori (50:04):
This is great To Great.
Melissa (50:08):
To stay connected with us, sign up for our email list
at literacypodcastcom, join ourFacebook group and follow us on
Instagram and.
Lori (50:17):
Twitter.
If this episode resonated withyou, take a moment to share with
a teacher friend or leave us afive-star rating and review on
Apple Podcasts.
Melissa (50:28):
Just a quick reminder that the views and opinions
expressed by the hosts andguests of the Melissa and Lori
Love Literacy Podcast are notnecessarily the opinions of
Great Minds PBC or its employees.
Lori (50:39):
We appreciate you so much and we're so glad you're here to
learn with us.
Thank you.
Fluency is the bridge between word recognition and
reading comprehension, butsometimes teaching fluency feels
like one more thing to add toan already jam-packed reading
schedule.
Activities like Reader'sTheater sound like a fun way to
have students practice fluency.
Melissa (00:16):
And in this episode, author and researcher Chase
Young explains how Reader'sTheater is not only fun and easy
to implement, but alsoeffective, according to research
.
You will also get practicaltips for using Reader's Theatre
to improve your students'fluency.
Lori (00:35):
Hi teacher friends.
I'm Lori and I'm Melissa.
We are two educators who wantthe best for all kids, and we
know you do too.
Melissa (00:44):
We worked together in Baltimore when the district
adopted a new literacycurriculum.
Lori (00:49):
We realized there was so much more to learn about how to
teach reading and writing.
Melissa (00:55):
Lori, and I can't wait to keep learning with you today.
Lori (01:00):
Hi, chase, welcome back to the podcast.
Chase Young (01:02):
It is great to be back.
Thanks for having me.
Lori (01:06):
Yeah, and thanks for wearing your special shirt that
you talked about the last timeyou were on the podcast.
We appreciate that.
Chase Young (01:12):
Just for y'all Job kick.
Melissa (01:15):
All right, let's jump right in with Reader's Theater.
If I'm a teacher who has neverheard of Reader's Theater ever
I've never done it with my classCan you just give us a brief
overview of what it is and whatare the steps that I would need
to take in my classroom toimplement it?
Chase Young (01:31):
Sure, the beauty of Reader's Theater is it's very
easy and very effective.
So the easiest way to describeit is just groups of kids
dramatically reading a text,performing it, and the key is
they need a structured practicein order to achieve mastery and
read with fluency and be able toentertain their audiences.
(01:55):
So basically, you got kidsdoing a play, but not really a
play.
They don't dress up, there's noprops, they don't memorize
their lines.
The only thing that they'reentertaining the audience with
is their awesome voices.
So it reminds me of PitchPerfect, but we won't take that
(02:15):
sidebar in this conversation,okay, All right, yeah, we don't
have the time.
Lori (02:19):
I love that.
I love that, as a teacher, weget a bang for our buck right
away with this.
You said it's very effective.
I know we're going to talkabout that in a little bit, but
it's just so unusual that ineducation, we would get a really
quick bang for our buck.
So do you have any tips for howto make it successful?
I'm thinking timelines likewhat should I be thinking about
(02:42):
if I'm wanting to implement thisin my classroom?
Chase Young (02:44):
Okay, good, um, like, what should I be thinking
about if I'm wanting toimplement this in my classroom?
Okay, good.
So, um, to start off with um,you know, depending on your
grade level, you have to thinkabout those things the context
of your classroom, um, the whatyour students like as far as the
scripts you're going to select.
So let's just break it downlike this Um, we typically we
use like a five day format.
So on Monday in preparation, wego through, you know, and find
(03:13):
some scripts.
The best class dot org is mysite where you can get a couple
hundred of those and what you dois you just kind of look and
say what would my students likeand you pick enough scripts to
match the number of students inyour class.
So that way you're not alldoing one script.
You have small groups.
It's like a small group, wholegroup activity, which is awesome
because you are then free towork with those small groups
(03:34):
throughout the week.
So on Monday you have yourscripts, you introduce them and
the kids raise your hand to say,yep, that's the one I want to
be in.
And that's how the groups areformed.
It's essentially based oninterest and, in some cases,
based on who wants to be withwho, whatever, who cares, as
long as they're excited to do it, let them, you know, let them
(03:56):
pair up in friendship.
So then on that Monday theykind of they take it home and
they think about who they wantto be, and really it's about
understanding the whole textitself, like getting an overall
feel for it, the meaning, thatkind of thing.
And the next day they come in,on Tuesday and they sit with
(04:18):
their groups and they selecttheir parts.
So they pick their parts.
They don't get what they wantand they cry and you know you'll
, you give them a hug and tellthem it's going to be okay, and
you do some rock paper scissorsand you figure it all out.
Now the first week is a littlerough because it's new to them.
But the beautiful part is, asthey learn this framework, um,
(04:38):
they get in that routine.
So the only thing that changesare the scripts, which is great.
Um, so they learn this routineand they realize that they don't
always get what they want andthat's just life.
So on that Tuesday, once theyselect their parts, they focus
on decoding and word recognition.
So they look at their own partand they just attempt to read it
(05:00):
Maybe circle or underline wordsthey don't know that they can
work with the teacher on, andyou kind of have to work them
through that to build theirautomaticity.
So we don't want them focusingon expression or anything else.
It's like let's learn how toread these words, okay, and that
may take a while, you know.
It may take some one-on-onework, it may take small group
(05:22):
work at some other time, maybehelp at home, but then hopefully
by Wednesday they at least knowthe words.
So on Wednesday is when westart focusing on this
automaticity and introduction toprosody.
So the expressive part of it andexpression is fun is because
(05:44):
you are thinking about themeaning of the text.
How am I supposed to read this?
What is the author's message?
What are they trying to convey?
So they truly have to have agood understanding and it's it's
an indicator that they'recomprehending if they're reading
out loud with good expression.
So you're coaching them usingterms like hey, what if we read
it like this?
And then eventually yourstudents start to coach each
(06:06):
other because they hear that sooften.
So they're like hey, maybe weshould read it like this.
Hey, I think he's really angry,let's do this super angry voice
or whatever, and so they workwith each other.
They work with you on Wednesdayto get that expression going,
and then on Thursday,essentially a practice
performance, um, where theystand up and you're listening
(06:27):
and making sure everyone's goingto be successful.
Because that's really the key,the key about reader seaters we
want to make sure that they aregoing to stand up there and be
awesome.
Uh, because this is aconfidence building, and not
only the skills that they'relearning and developing, but it
also builds confidence becausethey get to read aloud, with
prosody and like a good reader,and some of these kids have
(06:48):
never done that before.
And that's what's wonderfulabout giving them support and
practice throughout the week sothat they then can be awesome
when we come to Friday, which isthe grand performance, that's
when you invite everybody tocome watch these, these
thespians show off their readingskills and or you know you can
(07:09):
take it on the road you go, bustout classroom doors.
It's like we're here to do reada stater, and you know they
can't say no after you come inwith that kind of enthusiasm.
Lori (07:18):
That's right.
That's right.
I'm thinking like like justbombarding the front office.
You know, like your whole classgoing in and being like we are
doing this script today.
Chase Young (07:26):
Yes, yes, we have actually stood.
There was like a little step infront of the library that went
along right to the front doorsand we stood and we performed
for people walking in and thatwas just great too, I mean.
And the front office is alsoamazing because they're always
there.
There's always somebody thereif you can't find an audience.
(07:46):
It's really fun to plan thesefor walkthroughs, like for when
you're administrators, because,honestly, you're just sitting in
the back and all your kidssound great and they're having a
good time and you clearly havedone the work throughout the
week, so that then you couldjust celebrate all that they
learned.
So that's kind of a basicMonday through Friday framework,
With a couple of things inbetween.
(08:09):
You know, it's really good tosend them home with their
scripts so they can practicewith somebody.
And, and you know, big tipnumber one is make extra copies,
because they won't bring themback and you can either be
really mad and frustrated everysingle day when they don't or
you can just be like go to thefolder.
Lori (08:29):
Go to the extras bin.
That's what I called it theextras bin the.
Chase Young (08:33):
I have more texts at home.
Now bin right.
More things to read at home,that's lovely.
Melissa (08:40):
Chase, do you always recommend the performance being
for other people?
I'm just thinking likelogistically as a teacher I
might feel like, oh, that feelslike a lot of work.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Chase Young (08:48):
Okay.
So one of the reasons we havesmall groups is so they then can
perform for each other at theend of the week, so that can
just be an internal thing.
For a couple of years I justhad a standing invitation to
parents at 10 o'clock.
Lori (09:07):
We always did our reader's theater on Friday and they
could come if they wanted to.
So I love that.
That's such a great way toinvite parents and caregivers
into your classroom in a waythat feels authentic and
meaningful and also notoverwhelming Like I don't have
to come and stay for two hoursfor coming to stay for 20
minutes.
Chase Young (09:23):
Yeah, and you know parents, they want to help they.
They think they don't know howyou know?
And how how can I get involvedin the school?
And you're right, that's areally easy.
That's low hanging fruit, rightthere, show up, sit in a chair,
listen to your kid and go home.
Lori (09:35):
That's what I was wondering too, as you were
talking and talking about this,Monday through Friday, kind of
procedural um drill or routineto to work through Reader's
Theater Are you thinking 10, 20minutes a day, Like how long
should this take?
I know you mentioned theremight be other times where you
might be pulling a small groupand supporting, so of course
it's going to be fluid, but justkind of for our listeners
(09:55):
thinking I don't know, Chase,how long does this take each day
?
Chase Young (09:59):
Sure, as you get into that routine and it becomes
really well-oiled machine.
It really depends on the lengthof the scripts that you choose,
but typically it's about fiveminutes a day.
And I know five minutes becauseI always set the timer for five
minutes, said read it, rehearseit as many times as you can
(10:21):
within this, within five minutes, because scripts are going to
be different at length, they'llfinish at different times.
They'll annoy you with what doI do now?
Instead, it's I just, you know,set the time and here it goes.
Now, if your scripts are alittle bit longer, you know,
maybe you need seven, eightminutes.
It just really kind of depends.
And a lot of teachers don'twant to do reader's theater
(10:44):
because the length of thescripts and then you got to sit
and listen and they have to goover this.
Well, here's a tip Don't picklong scripts, just don't do it.
I despised long strips as areader, reader, theater advocate
and researcher for over adecade.
I didn't like them.
I liked the shorter ones, thefunny ones, the ones that had
(11:06):
like a little twist.
You know, that just really wasfor entertaining audiences.
Scary stories, I mean thingsthat were not just like hey,
let's take um the three littlepigs, for example, and we're
going to, and that's nice andthat's lovely.
That just wasn't my style.
I, I have it on my script or onmy site and you can you can
certainly download and use it,but it just I love the ones
(11:28):
where they, the kids, couldn'twait for the audience to hear
them, right Like the ones thatwere just like that, have like
that weird twist at the endthat's going to surprise
everybody, or somebody who'sgoing to yell at the end, or
whatever, like, like things,where they're just like so antsy
that they, they can't theirvery existence is is just to
(11:55):
perform every Friday, and socreating that kind of a culture
and getting them that farengaged is really going to be up
to you, the teacher out there,and your students.
It's every every year isdifferent, you know.
I mean, I remember one year Ionly had two girls in my class.
There were a lot of scriptsabout gas.
Melissa (12:14):
I understand that I have a five-year-old boy.
Chase Young (12:19):
Yeah, so the true story of farts is actually on my
website too.
It's nonfiction.
Lori (12:24):
I did see that when we were perusing yeah too, uh, it's
nonfiction.
I did see that when we wereperusing yeah, yeah, not it's
nonfiction and it is nonfiction.
Chase Young (12:30):
It's, it's, uh, it's pretty good.
Now, pu, is that you birdie?
That is, that is fiction.
Lori (12:36):
Okay, noted, noted.
Chase Young (12:39):
Working on our genres, so, but anyway.
So usually between I wouldn'tsay any more than 10 minutes
ever.
Now on performance day,depending on the number of
groups and length.
Again, you know, sometimes theperformances took like 15
minutes.
Another thing I recommend asfar as finding an audience is
just pairing up with thatawesome teacher friend that you
(12:59):
want to talk to on Fridays allthe time and just performing for
each other while you sit in theback and figure out where
you're going to go for happyhour.
Melissa (13:08):
I love that.
That's the way to do it.
I'm curious too.
You mentioned about likegetting the routines down a few
times there, so I just want toconfirm that this is not
something you would do like as aone-time special.
We're just doing this for funthis week, kind of thing but it
sounds like this is somethingyou would do regularly.
Chase Young (13:27):
Yeah, and when we get into the research we can
look at that too, but I willtell you that I don't know of a
study out there that was lessthan six weeks long, so it was
about a month and a half.
Most of the studies I did wereeither a year or at least a
semester 18 weeks.
So, yeah, if you just want toperform one on Halloween, don't
(13:47):
expect some of the results thatwe're going to be talking about.
Lori (13:50):
That's awesome to know and really helpful, although your
site does have some really fun,like I know, you have a fun
Valentine's script, so I thinkthat those are opportunities
right To continue what you'vealready built.
Chase Young (14:01):
Yeah, absolutely, and there's another site.
I's another site.
Um, I don't know if you guysfollow Aaron Grossman.
Um, he's a teacher out in Reno.
Melissa (14:10):
I think someone just put that on our, on our is it
the two teachers?
Chase Young (14:13):
Yeah, just two teachers.
Lori (14:15):
I have it.
I have it in my phone, you gotballoons.
I know I'm so excited about it.
I actually I have it in myphone because I was so impressed
with it.
It's called just twoteacherscom.
Chase Young (14:25):
So, uh, his readers reader scripts are mainly about
content.
Uh, he has math, social studies, science, all of that.
So, uh, mine are more aboutmake you laugh, Um, and you know
classics, and uh, and his siteis really cool because you're
learning things along the way.
I mean, besides the true storyof farts, there's, there's,
there's, plenty of always a timeto learn about that.
Lori (14:47):
Please don't, please don't put yourself down, don't skip
that one over?
Chase Young (14:50):
Yeah, exactly, but yeah so.
So check those out.
That's a wonderful way tointegrate, and I mean doing a
script on the digestive system.
I mean, come on, I know whatpart I'd want to be.
Lori (15:04):
Yeah, 100%.
I mean also I'm just thinking,I mean in science class you're
going to learn about, hopefully,the body systems.
It's a perfect place to eitherextend or build different
knowledge right, and make it fun.
Make it fun.
So I don't think this has to belimited to ELA class and we can
integrate so much right.
(15:25):
We can integrate vocabulary andword meanings and word parts
and sentence structure and somuch more.
Chase Young (15:33):
Absolutely.
And you know, when you startlooking at frameworks for
Reader's Theater, we do haveanother one that we called RT+,
which actually has word studyand vocabulary and reading
comprehension stuff.
Of course that is going.
That's making reader's theaterlike a focal point in your
classroom, you know.
So that is then extending thetime that you're going to devote
(15:54):
to it.
Now, obviously, you'll behaving like vocabulary
instruction and and differentthings, so it's covering the
full gamut, but it is kind ofcenters around those scripts.
So we do have that.
That article came out in 2017in the Reading Teacher and
essentially it has the samefluency goals, but then it also
has things you can do forvocabulary and then things you
(16:17):
can do for making meaning eachday as well.
Melissa (16:21):
And that's called Reader's Theater Plus.
Chase Young (16:23):
Yeah, the article was Reader's.
Theater Plus Word Study andComprehension.
Lori (16:28):
Cool, we'll link all of these in the show notes If
you're listening and you'reoverwhelmed.
You're driving, you don't havea pen, don't worry, we got you
in the show notes.
Chase Young (16:36):
Yeah, please don't be writing things down while
you're driving.
Lori (16:44):
Okay.
So we really want to kind ofextend and dig into just exactly
what you just said, likethinking about those other parts
of literacy, and we know thatyou have a ton of free scripts
on your website, like you said,as well as other cool resources
that we just mentioned.
So, melissa, I'm going to handit to you now.
Melissa (16:57):
Yeah, so we picked one of your scripts was
Rumpelstiltskin.
We figured that the audiencewould know that it's a pretty
well-known fairy tale and we'regoing to just share some
specific parts.
Lori's going to read the part.
I'm going to pick out somethings that we thought you know
vocabulary.
Lori's going to read the part.
I'm going to pick out somethings that we thought you know
vocabulary, or some syntax thatwe thought would be particularly
tricky for kids, that we mightstop and talk about with
students, and then you can justreact to it and tell us if we're
(17:20):
on the right track.
Chase Young (17:21):
Okay, that sounds good, I will be judgy.
Lori (17:24):
Cool, Be judgy Love that All right.
So here is example one from thescript Rumpelstiltskin,
Narrator one Once there was amiller who was poor but who had
a beautiful daughter.
Melissa (17:41):
Now it happened that he had to go and speak to the king
and in order to make himselfappear important, he said to the
king we were thinking ofvocabulary and morphology here
and we legitimately, I would saynot, we struggled, but we went
back and forth with I don't know, should we, would we stop here,
would we not?
But we picked out the wordmiller just because the whole
(18:01):
text was about the miller or themiller's daughter, right?
So you see that word over andover and over again and we don't
think kids know what a milleris.
Most kids probably don't knowwhat it is.
But we did think they could tapinto some of their morphology.
Just knowing that ER at the endoften does mean someone that
does something right.
So, okay, it gives them a clue.
But we probably would stillneed to give them a little help
(18:24):
with well, what is a mill?
What does it mean for someoneto do that?
So we were thinking like maybeeven showing them a picture of a
mill so they could understandkind of what happens.
That it's, you know, this bigmachine that grinds grain into
flour, so they could kind of geta picture.
Okay, this is what that persondoes, they operate this machine.
(18:45):
But then we also said like it'snot so essential to the story
for them to understand it, butit also is just repeated over
and over that.
They might just feel betterknowing what it is.
Chase Young (18:57):
Right.
All we need, all we need toknow is he has a job right.
It's not unemployed.
Melissa (19:01):
He has a job.
He's someone that doessomething.
Chase Young (19:05):
He does something, he mills.
Lori (19:07):
He mills Exactly.
Chase Young (19:09):
No, I think that's great.
I mean any, any opportunity ifyou are going to extend with
these, with these scripts, thatabsolutely I mean you can look
at your own scope and sequence,you can see how it aligns, you
can look at your content areas,um, all of that.
It's kind of, you know,community, if you're studying
the community or whatever youknow, hundreds years ago you had
(19:30):
to have your Miller, right.
I mean, who could, who could goon without the Miller?
Um, so no, I think I think it'sa great idea to just show them.
These aren't just scripts,these are texts and we can use
them for instructional purposes.
We already have them selected,they're already engaged with
them, and to know more and andand think deeper about them, I
(19:50):
think is really the lovely sideeffect of spending time in text
for a week.
Lori (19:58):
Yeah, that's actually a really good point.
That's a good point.
You're diving into it for fivedays and even if you're spending
five to seven minutes actuallyreading it, you could be
extending it during other times,which then you get an even
bigger bang for your buck.
Chase Young (20:14):
Absolutely yes.
I couldn't agree more because,um, and what?
I encourage teachers to just goahead and start basic, you know
, start with that baby frameworkwhere you just, hey, let's
learn the words, let's learn howto read this expressively,
we'll spend a small amount oftime.
Because you know you're goingto be trial and error with
different scripts and how andintroducing your kids to.
(20:36):
Because you know, the firstweek you got some introverts.
You know, not everybody's likeus and and you kind of it takes
them a minute.
You know I had every year.
I started with a few introvertsand I apologize for this, but
they weren't anymore by the end.
But it, you know that firstweek, it they may not want to
(21:06):
participate and I give them thatoption.
I was like, okay, well, ifyou'd rather just read
independently or whatever, I canfind you a text that you could
read during this time.
You know, every year a couplewould start that way, but by the
second week they were all in.
You know they had a blast, theywere having fun.
And again, you know, when itcomes back to you're picking
things for their interest.
You're also integrating it inother ways.
(21:27):
They're being successful itother ways they're being
successful.
It's, it's motivating, I mean.
So there you go.
Melissa (21:35):
And I would imagine, like if back to our example
about the Miller, if they'rereading it over and over and
over again, and they're readingMiller and Miller, and Miller
and Miller, I am sure you'regoing to have at least one kid
who says what's a Miller?
Chase Young (21:47):
What is a Miller?
Absolutely Every class has gotto have that kid that has about
everything and which is great.
Love the curiosity.
But you know, sometimes it's alittle overwhelming.
But yeah, absolutely, they'regoing to be asking, like, what
in the world is a Miller and who?
You know?
They may think it's like a lastname or something you know.
(22:07):
That may be like, ok, this isjust a person.
But yeah, if you're, if you'reworking on that morphology of ER
or whatever you know that maybe like, okay, this is just a
person, but yeah, if you're, ifyou're working on that
morphology of ER or whateverthat's, that's a perfect time.
Like, I'm a teacher, this is amiller, here's a mill, this is
how it mills, and and I thinkthat's, that's pretty much it.
You know, I love, I love someof the research that's coming
out in small group instruction,where they're saying less is
(22:29):
better, you know, and that right, there is a 30 second lesson.
Lori (22:33):
Yes, that gives so much background knowledge and also
knowledge that can be appliedforward right the ER at the end.
A teacher, someone who teachesMiller, someone who mills.
A driver, someone that drives,a driver, someone who drives,
but it doesn't work foreverything, but maybe it does if
you look at the meaning of themorphology.
So then you can extend thatright.
Chase Young (22:53):
Absolutely.
Yeah, it's great, especially ifyou choose these scripts that
have this incredible vocabulary.
I mean, especially when you'regetting shorter ones, you can
make them more challenging.
That's another thing aboutReader's Theater you guys want
to think about is choosechallenging texts.
If we're going to spend a weekon this, we might choose
(23:15):
something difficult and ideallysomething at grade level, um, so
that those kids who get thesupport for the first time in
their lives stand up and readsomething aloud on grade level
Uh, and that's a wonderful wayfor you know, to meet that grade
level expectation that we wantthem, we want them in texts,
meet that grade levelexpectation that we want them.
We want them in text that aregrade level text.
We want them in that, and thisis one of the ways you can get
(23:38):
them there.
Lori (23:39):
Part of the scaffold is the repetition.
Part of the scaffold is likemaking sure that you're like
talking about it, they'reunderstanding the parts so that
they are fluently reading andhaving that expression to show
the comprehension.
But the repetition is a hugescaffold here and we don't want
to miss that opportunity withnot supplying grade level text
that's so important.
Chase Young (24:01):
And I'll tell you, and if you've ever done readers
here, listeners out there,listen, lori, you're striving
readers.
Those that find reading outloud difficult, those that find
reading in general difficult,will pick the biggest part every
time.
They want to be narrator one,they want to be Lysander, they
want to be the wolf, they wantto be all of these things, and
(24:23):
it's truly because they knowthat they're going to get the
support they need and then theycan.
They can prove to the otherstudents that I am a great
reader Because unfortunately,they, they, they tend to know,
you know, yeah, it's like theopposite of popcorn reading,
where you didn't have a chanceto practice.
Melissa (24:42):
So you get all that anxiety right.
But this is like I will do thattough one because I get to
practice it and I will be ready.
Lori (24:50):
All right, I want to take us to one more part of that
Rumpelstiltskin script.
I know we took a little triparound the world here, but we're
coming back to the script.
I'm going to read one more partfrom it that I think we're
going to look at sentencestructure.
So just kind of pay attention.
This again is the narrator oneand we're going to focus on
sentence structure here.
(25:10):
By daybreak the king wasalready there and when he saw
the gold he was reallyastonished and delighted.
But his heart became only moregreedy.
He had the Miller's daughtertaken into another room full of
straw, which was much larger,and commanded her to spin that
also in one night If she valuedher life.
(25:30):
The girl knew not how to helpherself and was crying when the
door opened again and the littleman appeared and said Three
sentences.
So all of that was Conjunctionjunction.
Three sentences.
Chase Young (25:41):
Wow Right.
Melissa (25:42):
That's right.
Your function is to hold thewhole story together, apparently
, yeah.
And I would imagine I mean youtalked about this might happen
on what like the third day or sothat you're practicing, where
you might point out to themthose commas and how to pause
and really work through that,Because otherwise I could just
see that not being read the wayLori just read it, and just
(26:04):
being read straight through.
Chase Young (26:06):
Oh yes, oh yes.
Melissa (26:08):
Really hard to understand.
Chase Young (26:10):
Well, what's crazy is like punctuation is one of
the only visible prosodic cuesin text.
You know, the rest is kind ofmodeled and learned and
expressed based on meaning, butwith punctuation it tells you
slight pause here.
Exclamation mark, question, youknow, lift your tone, that kind
of thing.
But so yeah, that can beexplicitly taught easily, and
(26:34):
what a great example.
Lori (26:38):
That's why we chose it.
We were like this we, we, wewent through quite a few of your
scripts to really choose somegood ones here.
Melissa (26:44):
Right, Because if you break it down into like those
chunks right, then it feels like, okay, I can handle those
chunks, versus this really longsentence that could feel a
little scary to read aloud.
Chase Young (26:56):
Yeah, yeah, I mean putting them on different lines
with the commas, so you work onphrasing as well as that pausing
.
Great opportunity for that.
Lori (27:05):
Yeah, I mean, I would have the kids be scooping right,
like breaking it out, scoopinglike circling, oh and and and,
oh I see this word and over andover again.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, and theseare really helpful cues for them
, like oh, comma, take a quickbreath and go.
Melissa (27:21):
You know there's a lot of cues that we can teach here
and that's helping them for thisparticular script, but also for
just reading in general.
Right After they're done withthis script, they're taking that
what they just learned fromwhat you all just said to really
complex text.
Chase Young (27:37):
Right, that's like.
The holy grail of teaching istransfer.
You know when they start to useit in other places.
Lori (27:44):
Oh okay, so we could keep going all day.
We won't because we havelimited time here and I think we
should really get to theresearch.
So you are a super coolresearcher and we know that
you've shared that there'sresearch to support Reader's
Theater, so you want to tell usabout it.
Chase Young (28:02):
Sure, absolutely the wonderful thing about
Reader's Theater.
It kind of was derived based onthe fact that we learned that
repeated readings and rehearsaltransfers to other texts like
repeatedly reading one text,actually makes you better at
another.
So as soon as you found outthat it didn't just make you
(28:22):
good at one, you're like this isamazing, this is wonderful.
And that was in the 70s.
We started to see a lot morerepeated readings.
And then, of course, you knowwe're like OK, well, that's kind
of boring, you know, let's addsome authenticity.
Why would anyone you knowrepeatedly read something?
Nowadays you might have ascript for a YouTube video and
narrate over some sort of coyotewalking around in the.
(28:43):
You know, of course, one of thecall centers speeches, poetry,
recitations and, of course,actors.
So here comes a reader'stheater and the research is is
is vast, because you know um, it, it.
It covers a lot, like we haveresearch in gen ed, but we have
(29:04):
research that supports it in inspecial education classrooms.
There was like four fullclassrooms that were involved in
one of the studies that saysthat it worked with them.
Emergent bilinguals have beenstudied.
Title one classrooms have beenstudied.
Reader's theater has beenstudied in Taiwan.
It's from kindergarten topost-secondary.
(29:24):
Reader's theater was actuallyrecently used to help
pronunciation and learningEnglish in Taiwan.
Yeah, I mean there's a lot ofcrazy stuff out there, but I
mean it goes through.
The bulk of the research is inelementary.
There's some really goodresearch in middle school too.
It's a little scant in highschool but then it comes back
(29:48):
into college classrooms.
So we did a study actually in ahigh school classroom using
scripted stories of readerstheater, and that particular
group, the reader seat ortreatment group, significantly
(30:13):
outperformed the control on thereading comprehension.
Um, and that was really cool tosee.
Um, so you know it's like, yeah, but that's kind of cheating.
You know you have other support.
I'm like, well, okay, well,what is?
What is the goal?
Do you want your kids tounderstand the text or is it to
what?
It's not cheating, it'steaching.
(30:34):
You know it's providing support, it's providing a scaffold so
that your students canunderstand the grade level
expectation tests.
Um, so, uh, so it's, it's.
It's pretty amazing and in allof these different contexts and
and things, they've found thatit significantly improves word
recognition automaticity, itsignificantly improves prosody,
(30:57):
it significantly improvesreading comprehension, it
significantly improves attitudetoward reading and in one study
it was kind of like it wasactually Poetry Academy, so they
were performing poetry insteadof scripts.
It was actually Poetry Academy,so they were performing poetry
instead of scripts.
They found that, that LaurieWilfong found that their
attitude, their overall attitudetowards school, had improved
(31:19):
just school in general, and thatis certainly due to the fact
that they are being successful,that they're actually succeeding
and reading a grade level textand being good at it.
And you know, tim Brzezinskisays that every kid should go
home from school having readsomething successfully every day
(31:40):
.
And that's because I mean, if Iwas terrible at something, I
wouldn't go do it every singleday.
You don't see me on thebasketball court.
I'm awful at that and I havethe choice not to go, okay.
But these kids, they don't.
They have to go to school andthey have to spend eight hours
in different subjects, including, you know, language arts,
(32:00):
reading, and they're not good atit and that's a problem.
So that overall attitude startsto shift when they go to a
place and they can excel and dowhat is expected.
So that's, you know, in general, the research says it does a
lot for a lot of things, a lotof different aspects of literacy
(32:24):
.
Melissa (32:25):
I remember you telling us about the study that you did,
where the students didn't eventhink they made gains in reading
because they were just likehaving too much fun, like that
wouldn't work.
I was just having fun.
Chase Young (32:38):
Yeah, I was just having a good time Like we
weren't doing reading.
Well, that study was reallycool.
Actually it was a big study andthen we kind of sliced it in
different directions to look atdifferent things.
The overall study we used theGates-McGinnity reading test,
pre and post, with a few hundredstudents, second graders, who
were participating in Reader'sTheater, and we had a control.
(33:00):
And so the three subtests weredecoding, word knowledge and
reading comprehension.
And when you look at theresults the decoding andoding,
word knowledge and readingcomprehension.
And when you look at theresults, the reading, the
decoding and the reading and theword knowledge were pretty much
the same in both groups, youknow, except one group was doing
reader's theater and the otherone was doing whatever it is
(33:21):
that they were doing.
And then in readingcomprehension, the reader's
theater group outperformedsignificantly the control group,
and a lot of it is due to thisactive type, participating in
literacy, being involved in it,rather than this passive
literacy of where we're justletting it hit us a little bit.
(33:42):
But we're actually on theoffensive, you know, and that's
cool.
So some other results we foundfrom that one is we started just
looking at gender differencesand we saw that through an
analysis that the boys hadsignificantly outperformed the
girls, or all three areasdecoding, word, knowledge and
(34:03):
comprehension and in thetreatment group or in the
control group, that gap remainedfrom pre to post.
The boys were doing much, werenot performing as well, but in
the reader-seer treatment thegap was gone and in some cases
they were outperforming, notsignificantly but just
(34:25):
descriptively.
And it was so cool.
Our research team was like oh mygosh, we have found something
to help boys, you know,participate more in literacy.
And it goes back to what you'resaying, melissa.
You know we, we didn't know whyit was happening.
So I you name, I primarily donumbers.
(34:46):
So I'm a quantitativeresearcher but I was forced into
qualitative because we had tofigure out.
We had to figure out why.
What was about Reader's Theaterthat engaged the boys so well?
And you know we interviewed Idon't know it's like a hundred
boys that participated onReader's Theater and you know
(35:07):
the primary thing was they.
It was a novel activity.
They didn't see it as reading.
You know, we asked the kid andit's like does it make you a
better reader?
Why, or why not?
And he was like no, becauseit's fun.
But yet, but yet you know, whenyou look at his growth, it's
like you have made wonderfulgains.
And you know, and this one boyin particular, that I was
(35:31):
observing, oh my gosh, you couldtell that he was just.
He would have been one of myfavorites because it was a huge
behavior problem and he wasdying to be the big bad wolf,
like dying.
He was on the floor likebegging and I was like, please,
(35:52):
teacher, give it to him, pleasegive it to him, give it to him,
you know.
And he was selected despite hisbeing under the chair and but
he did so amazing.
And there's actually researchout there, uh, conducted on a
reader's Theater in classroomsthat have students with
behavioral concerns.
So it is being used as like awarm-up activity in dyslexia at
(36:21):
small groups and it's being usedeverywhere and just seeing that
behavioral concerns just kindof diminished because we're
leveraging the fact that thesekids are going to be loud,
they're going to be boisterous,they're going to be moving,
they're going to be, you knowjust, and that's what we want,
(36:45):
that's, that's absolutely whatwe want.
These kids, kids were made forit, you know, we give them that
opportunity to.
You know, I couldn't sit downand read a book in my classroom
when I was little.
Well, you know, typically myteacher just made me pass out
papers.
I don't know, I don't know why,but she loved me because I sat
(37:06):
at her desk all the time.
She loved me.
Lori (37:09):
Imagine if you had Reader's Theater, I know at her
desk all the time she loved me.
Chase Young (37:10):
Imagine if you had reader's theater, I know it
would have been phenomenal, sofun, Just loved it.
But you know, learning is tooquiet sometimes.
You know it doesn't always haveto be crazy and wild, but it
should be sometimes.
You know, and in order to reachall of the students, and, and,
and, and even those that aren't,you know, behavior concerns are
(37:32):
still making gains too, incomprehension, in fluency, in
attitude, motivation, confidence, all of these things.
Melissa (37:41):
And it's very structured.
At the same time, it's not.
Lori (37:44):
Yeah, it's not chaos, it's structured chaos.
Chase Young (37:48):
It is, yeah, absolutely.
We create a little boundary andwe let the chaos ensue, correct
?
Lori (38:06):
We just, yeah, it's controlled chaos was categorized
as learning disabled.
Um, third grade student who wasworking on accuracy, coming
like and I just was like, justbring her to my house, I will
work with her.
And we started doing reader'stheater and with grade level
(38:26):
texts from some from yourwebsite, some other ones that I
could find out there, just basedon her interests.
And then at some point I addedsome other informational texts
and we started doing somepartner reading, paragraph
shrinking.
But I implemented that partnerreading routine with the
Reader's Theater scripts ongrade First.
(38:47):
We got the routines.
We had so much fun and then weadded on that layer of the
paragraph shrinking to about sixweeks in.
So six weeks of reader's theaterand then six weeks additional
with the paragraph shrinking andshe went from 57 words per
minute to 100 words uh, oralreading fluency in just like
(39:10):
three months.
And so this, I mean this works.
You know, I mean, if you need,if you need to, to kind of think
about that, that's huge.
I know that's a one-on-onesituation, but it was not a long
time.
It was maybe 15 minutes a day,three times a week at the most.
So, um, think about the powerwithin a whole group of kids.
Chase Young (39:30):
Yeah, and that's the wonderful thing about this
small whole group, small groupactivity.
They're all doing the samething but they're working in
small groups with differenttexts and you are free to help
them as needed.
You meet with those groupsevery day, sit down, see where
their struggles are, talk aboutthe meaning.
I mean, you're free to moveamongst those groups and if you
(39:51):
identify a group that's really,really struggling then, yeah,
you may want to find anothertime in during the day to just
work with them.
All the way through the script,you know, identify what, what,
what those struggles are, andand try to remediate that so
that they can have success on onperformance day.
Melissa (40:08):
Yeah, I just have one more question about the research
before we close this thing out.
So you already mentioned it,but I just want to stamp it
because I have heard a lot ofskeptics of readers, theater,
who mentioned that, well, theyjust get better at that script
or that, whatever it is they'rereading, and I think the same
goes for repeated readings, likethey just get better at what
(40:29):
they're reading but that doesn'ttranslate.
You've already given manyexamples of where it does
actually translate to othertexts, but I'm just wondering,
if I don't know if a teacher ishearing that from their
principal or from anotherteacher, or it's like how would
you say they should handle thatsituation or give them some more
ammunition?
Chase Young (40:50):
I think they should print out Jay Samuel's article,
published in the readingteacher in 1979, called the
method of repeated readings,which is where it is visually,
graphically represented, of howthe transfer works.
For example, there's a little,there's a, there's a graph, and
it shows a kid who their wordscorrect per minute has increased
(41:14):
throughout repeated readingsand how their errors decrease.
And then the next line isactually that same kid reading a
more challenging text and youcan see the words correct per
minute starts higher and theerrors start lower.
And they do this again andagain and the same phenomenon
occurs.
Therefore, the repeated readingitself is helping them learn
(41:38):
how to read.
It's helping develop theirfluency on other texts as well.
Fluency in general, they'rebuilding their fluency.
You can't, I mean think aboutit.
Fluency in general, they'rebuilding their fluency.
You can't, I mean think aboutit.
So I haven't read a text.
Let's just say I haven't readthis, my Quotable Kid book.
Right, that's sitting on thistable.
Am I going to have to practiceit?
(42:00):
No, I'm a fluent reader.
I am now fluent.
I am fluent at almost any textyou put in front of me, not the
New England Journal of Medicine,but I certainly.
There is that transfer effect.
It's practice, it's.
You know, practicing a trumpet,practicing driving, practicing
(42:20):
cartwheels, you get better at it.
In general you can do acartwheel outside, inside on a
trampoline.
You know you don't have torepeatedly practice on the
trampoline, then repeatedlypractice on the floor.
Melissa (42:32):
Maybe a balance beam will be tough.
That would be.
That would be the New EnglandJournal of Medicine.
Chase Young (42:37):
The Journal of Medicine of cartwheels right
there.
But I would take a look at thatand show them that we've known
this for a very long time and ingeneral.
You know, when we look at theresearch specifically on
reader's theater, there's a lotof really solid work in that
area, with rigorous methods withreliable results that say, hey,
(43:03):
you know, we control for this,we control for this.
I mean, our study usedsomething called propensity
score matching where it'sacceptable by what works,
clearinghouse as a method todetermine effectiveness of
instructional strategies and itessentially matches treatment
and control groups.
A person in this group you havea male that's in special
(43:24):
education who is Title IHispanic and scored this on the
pretest, and it matches that tosomebody in the control and if
there's no match, it eliminatesthem.
So it's our best attempt tomimic randomization and also
make sure that we have apples toapples.
So there's a lot of solidresearch out there that says it
(43:46):
works.
It's not just people going, wow, you know, my kids really liked
it and that's lovely, you know.
But where I focus is impact,student impact on what are the
outcomes.
And when you see things working, then do it, especially
something that's only fiveminutes, and then here's more
ammunition for those teacherssay you know what research is
(44:07):
saying it's working in all ofthese different contexts.
I'd like to at least test itout in my classroom.
I will do pre post and I willprogress monitor it with you
know, curriculum basedmeasurement or dibbles or
whatever that you happen to use,and then I'll come back to you
in six weeks.
I would say give it six weeksand just see what the results
are.
Show that principle and if it'snot working for them, great, do
(44:35):
something else.
You know, maybe it's just thatclass.
You know I w I would recommenddoing an experiment on your own
and and give it the time.
Um, make sure you fidelity,structure support, uh,
challenging texts.
Again, they're probably notgoing to grow.
If you're going to be choosing,you know um cat in the hat for
your fifth graders.
But so you know, with all ofthose elements in place, I just
can't imagine you not seeinggrowth.
(44:58):
And another thing that ReaderCedar does is it has inherent
accountability, like it may bethe only time that they're
actually reading something thatday.
Yeah, I was really good atavoiding reading at school.
I can make up beautifulresponses.
I just pick one sentence outand just make a wonderful
personal connection and justfool that teacher.
(45:19):
They're like in tears from myreflection and I didn't read a
single thing, you know.
But with Reader's Theater theyhave to.
Lori (45:27):
I love the sports analogies.
I think that's really helpfulfor listeners too like thinking
about okay, if we teach someoneto swim in a pool that transfers
to many other bodies of water,You're not going to not know how
to swim when you get to thosethings.
You're not going to be like, ohgosh, this doesn't have
chlorine in it, so I'm not goingto be able to swim.
You're going to be able to swimin the other bodies of water,
(45:53):
whatever they might be.
There might be differentchallenges, there might be some
waves, there might be, I don'tknow, some mucky things.
I don't, I don't even like tothink about it.
Right, but you still know howto swim or grow Sandy bottom use
what you know.
Oh, I know so gross, I agreewith you.
(46:14):
But yeah, I mean, you stillknow how to swim and you can
still apply those skills thatyou have.
You don't lose them.
I think the thing that I thinkabout is, like that's where the
role of the teacher is soimportant, because that is where
the teacher can help make thatpractice really, really good
practice.
Right, it needs to be accurate.
We know that you said that wasthe first step.
We know that they need to bereading with expression to be
able to show that theyunderstand it.
So that's where, like that,that teacher special stuff comes
(46:35):
in and you're teaching thatscript so that then they can
apply it.
Because if I'm doing the, youknow a freestyle stroke and I'm
just I'm just doing it and Idon't know how to turn my head
to get air appropriately, thenin another body of water I'm
going to probably struggle withthat skill.
Right, so I have to make sureexactly it doesn't matter where.
So we have to make sure thosethings are firmed up in the
(46:57):
original place so that we canthen go transfer them.
Um, and I, I like to think ofit like perfect practice makes
perfect.
I don't, I don't always lovethe idea of perfection, Like you
know, but I think that, interms of practice, if we're, if
we're teaching freestyleincorrectly in a pool, it's not
going to be done well anywhereelse either.
So you know, same with yourbasketball.
(47:19):
You're not taught correctly howto do a layup.
You're not, you're just notgoing to be able to do it
Doesn't matter the hoop, youknow.
So perfect practice makesperfect.
That's where the teacher comesin, to make sure that the
students are doing it to theirvery best and doing it with that
accuracy and with that fluentreading that they need to be
doing so that they can transferit.
Chase Young (47:38):
Right, and that's a common misconception too, as
far as, like readers who arelike, well, they try it, and
they're like, well, they're outthere and they're not doing very
well, Well, you're very muchinvolved in it, you know it
doesn't, doesn't make itsuccessful because they can do
it on their own.
They're not going to be able todo it on their own.
That's why you're there.
So you know, don't don't expectthem to just naturally fall
(47:58):
into these groups and workthrough the, the, the five steps
or whatever, and and and besuccessful.
Lori (48:06):
I would even say if you're a teacher listening and you're
like this, you're starting thisout, structure your groups.
Put a kid who you know is goingto be like the, the bossy
teacher, in in each group, Right, so that you, you have a
presence from the get-go.
Chase Young (48:21):
We like to call them emergent leaders emergent
leaders.
Lori (48:23):
I'm sorry, but you know what I mean.
Chase Young (48:26):
I do.
Yeah, absolutely.
You can structure your groupsMaybe it's not the first while
based on interest Maybe it iswho's going to work well
together.
Lori (48:35):
Oh my gosh.
So many great tips today.
We can't even thank you enough.
Is there anything that youhaven't said want to say?
Been dying to get out thereabout Reader's Theater, and this
is your time.
Chase Young (48:46):
It's easy and it's effective.
Lori (48:53):
And your kids will enjoy it.
So do it.
I think you just titled yourepisode easy, enjoyable,
effective.
Just do it.
Melissa (48:57):
There it is.
Chase Young (48:58):
You're welcome.
Melissa (49:00):
And your website again is thebestclassorg correct.
Chase Young (49:04):
Yes, yes, and you'll see the scripts on there.
They're in alphabetical orderand the little parentheses is
the number of parts.
That way you don't have toclick on each script to figure
out oh, I need one for six.
I need one for six.
Lori (49:15):
You can just control F, put in six and see which one you
might want to use mom friendand I was teaching her how to do
fluent, teach, teach readers,theater and teach this like
protocol with her little guy forthe summer.
And um she said, oh, I wentthrough, I found all the ones
(49:36):
with the least amount of parts,cause it's just us or just our
family, and I took printed allthe fart ones and I was like
great, she's like farts, boogers, they're all they're all
printed.
Chase Young (49:48):
I wrote that one personally.
Well, my wife and I co-wrote it.
Oh, I love that, yeah.
Lori (49:53):
Yeah, so I mean going to good use all over the world.
Thank you, Love it.
Chase Young (49:57):
Well, thank you so much for having me.
You guys are awesome.
Love how you get the word out.
Yeah, thank you.
Lori (50:04):
This is great To Great.
Melissa (50:08):
To stay connected with us, sign up for our email list
at literacypodcastcom, join ourFacebook group and follow us on
Instagram and.
Lori (50:17):
Twitter.
If this episode resonated withyou, take a moment to share with
a teacher friend or leave us afive-star rating and review on
Apple Podcasts.
Melissa (50:28):
Just a quick reminder that the views and opinions
expressed by the hosts andguests of the Melissa and Lori
Love Literacy Podcast are notnecessarily the opinions of
Great Minds PBC or its employees.
Lori (50:39):
We appreciate you so much and we're so glad you're here to
learn with us.
Thank you.
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