April 4, 2025 • 50 mins
Episode 221
This live podcast recording was part of the opening reception for the 2025 Literacy & Justice for All symposium in Oakland, CA on March 7 and 8.
It is crucial to ensure every student becomes a proficient reader. In this live podcast, we’re diving into the amazing strides Oakland Unified School District is making with its bold literacy vision, the challenges they’re overcoming, and the innovative approaches transforming classrooms.
We’re joined by two incredible guests: Leroy Gaines, Elementary Network Superintendent at OUSD, overseeing 16 elementary schools, and Tala Kauzer, ELA Coach, who leads literacy intervention programs K-5 at Acorn Elementary School.
About the Literacy & Justice for All symposium
The annual symposium is focused on promoting effective practice in literacy and reading skills and mobilizing the field of learning professionals around literacy as a vehicle for social justice and transformational life outcomes.
Organized by the Oakland Literacy Coalition, the annual symposium brings together school and community-based educators, practitioners, funders, leaders, and literacy champions for a comprehensive learning experience that elevates literacy in the classroom and beyond. This year’s conference drew more than 600 attendees from across the US.
Resources:
- To learn more about Oakland Unified’s ELA curriculum adoption, visit https://www.ousd.org/english-language-arts-ela/elementary-ela-curriculum-adoption
- How Oakland is Turning a New Page in Literacy
- Oakland Unified School District TK-5 Language and Literacy Framework
We answer your questions about teaching reading in The Literacy 50-A Q&A Handbook for Teachers: Real-World Answers to Questions About Reading That Keep You Up at Night.
Grab free resources and episode alerts! Sign up for our email list at literacypodcast.com.
Join our community on Facebook, and follow us on Instagram, Facebook, & Twitter.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Melissa (00:00):
This podcast episode was recorded with a live
audience at the Literacy andJustice for All Symposium in
Oakland, California.
Lori (00:08):
It was our first live episode and we are so excited
for you to hear our conversationwith two awesome Oakland
educators.
Let's jump in.
Hi teacher friends.
I'm Lori and I'm Melissa.
We are two educators who wantthe best for all kids, and we
know you do too.
Melissa (00:28):
We worked together in Baltimore when the district
adopted a new literacycurriculum.
Lori (00:33):
We realized there was so much more to learn about how to
teach reading and writing.
Melissa (00:39):
Lori, and I can't wait to keep learning with you today.
Well, this is our first livepodcast.
First one we've ever done thisbefore and I'm Melissa, I'm Lori
, hi, yeah, so our podcast isthe Melissa and Lori Love
Literacy Podcast and, as we said, this is our first live podcast
(01:02):
.
Lori (01:02):
We know it's super important to make sure that
every student becomes aproficient reader.
I think that's why we're allhere today and in this live
podcast, we are going to talkwith some amazing educators from
Oakland Unified School District.
They are making.
They are making yeah, go ahead,cheer it on.
Yeah, they have an incredibleliteracy vision.
(01:24):
They're bringing it to life andwe're going to hear all about
it today, with their innovationsand challenges and everything
that goes along with.
You know, implementing anincredible vision.
So thank you so much, both ofyou for being here with us today
, leroy and Tala.
Melissa (01:39):
Yeah.
So our guests today are LeroyGaines.
He's an elementary networksuperintendent, as you heard
before, and he oversees 16elementary schools here in
Oakland.
And then we have Tala Kouser,who is a literacy coach and runs
all of those interventionprograms, kindergarten through
fifth grade at Acorn Elementary.
So welcome to the podcast.
(02:01):
Thank you, we're so excited tohave you here Now, before we
jump totally in to hearing allthe amazing things they do, we
wanted to let them tell you alittle bit more about themselves
.
So if you all could tell usjust a little bit more about
your roles what do you do on aday-to-day basis?
And, most importantly, thesetwo.
They've known each other for awhile, so fill them in on how
(02:22):
you two have crossed paths overthe years.
Leroy Gaines (02:24):
Yeah, no, absolutely no thanks for a while
.
So fill them in on how you twohave crossed paths over the
years.
Yeah, no, absolutely no thanksfor having us.
Thanks for all the kind words.
Lori (02:31):
I was hoping that we would have like the smoke and I could
come through.
You wanted to walk out some?
Yeah, I wanted to walk out some.
Leroy Gaines (02:35):
But this is okay, this works too.
But no, I'm the networksuperintendent.
Here in Oakland we have a lotof elementary schools and so we
split up the elementaries intothree networks and I oversee
network four.
But more importantly and Iguess, the pride, my most proud
position in Oakland has been asthe principal of Acorn Woodland.
(02:56):
That's how I know Tala.
I hired Tala as our teacher andTala came to us as our after
school, as one of our afterschool instructors, and we just
saw so much talent in her andbegged and begged for her to
come and join and get hercredential and yeah, yeah, it
was a really cool and uniqueopportunity.
Tala Kauzer (03:16):
I was very young, I was 21, and they're like you
need to be in a classroom, youneed to teach kindergarten.
And I was like, yeah, I canabsolutely teach kindergarten.
Um, I got my credential and um,my degree is in linguistics,
which is why they wanted me atkindergarten, because I deeply
understand phonics andfoundational skills, and so,
(03:36):
yeah, then we worked together atAcorn for a few years before
you moved on to become bignetwork man.
Lori (03:42):
Well, we're so glad that it brought you back here with
you with us today, and I knowyou both said it felt like a
little party reuniting witheveryone.
So I think it might be a goodtime to think about the literacy
vision for Oakland and thinkingabout that literacy and
language framework.
So I'm going to ask Leroy tojust share the district vision,
(04:05):
a little more about that andanything that you think would be
important to kick us off todaywith this vision in mind.
Leroy Gaines (04:11):
Yeah, so we see here and thank you for being
able to get this on the screen,because it's hard to talk about
this without having this imagein front of you and really, what
you see here is our conceptualframework that we've based our
literacy work around.
We have the four quadrants thatare there.
Our dream, our hope, our vision, our North Star is that all of
(04:32):
our students and all thechildren here in Oakland are
literate and critical thinkers,but, more importantly, we want
to make sure that they're equitychampions.
I think that's particularlyimportant in the current stage
of where we are in our country,and it's important that we're
producing deep thinkers andpeople who are able to make
sense of the world.
And so the work that we'redoing here in Oakland is both
(04:54):
the literacy work but also thisjustice work, and you know
appropriate that we're heretoday, right with the LLC.
But, yeah, I wanted to alsomention this is that we are in a
very I always think of Oaklandand the Bay, but particularly
Oakland is almost like a bubble,and we assume that the politics
(05:17):
and the work that we're doinghere is what everybody's doing,
and we're always shocked to findthat this isn't necessarily the
case.
So when we're asked to come up,we're asked to come and talk
about this.
They're like whoa, talk aboutyour framework, talk about what
you guys are doing in Oakland.
We're like why, like it's?
We're just, you know, we'reteaching kids to read and we're
teaching them to be socialjustice warriors what's
different?
And so now I'm very excited tospeak to and we're going to talk
(05:42):
about this in more depth soon.
Lori (05:43):
Yeah, Now this is a live podcast, so we will have
listeners.
Leroy Gaines (05:47):
Oh sorry, Do you mind?
Lori (05:47):
just sharing each of the four quadrants for our listeners
.
Leroy Gaines (05:50):
I know everybody in the room can see it, yeah
yeah, no, absolutely, I'm like Ineed to see them too.
No, so it's based on these four.
We talk about our theconversations on the science of
reading, and we've been thereand then we've sort of shifted
away from it for a little whileand I think nationally we're
(06:14):
coming back to it and realizingthat we have to have phonics and
phonemic awareness and we haveto be really explicit about how
all those different pieces ofearly literacy come together.
So that's a big part of thisframework making sure we have
standards-based, high-rigor,high-quality ELA program and
curriculum in everybody's handsso our students have access to
grade-level text Integratingwith our ELD.
(06:36):
We have our population here, anumber of newcomers, a number of
English language learners.
We can't get to a place wherewe have strong literacy results
without having to deal with ourlanguage needs right.
So building that into thisframework was a key part of it.
And because of all of this andyou think about the science of
reading we knew assessment andhaving a really clear assessment
(06:59):
framework that's aligned andcoherent to be able to then
operationalize this MTSS modelthat would help us determine
where and how we're distributingthese resources to best impact
student learning.
So that's the framework, butall of this is couched and based
in equity.
And then at the bottom I thinkat the bottom you see that, yeah
(07:21):
, equitable practices.
So that's what it's all couchedin and that's where our north
star is.
Um is that itself.
So, yeah, at the center, youknow, standards-based stuff yeah
, I can't forget, all right.
Melissa (07:37):
So it's great to have this framework, so everyone's on
the same page in the districtand you know we all have the
same goals right, very important.
But we have to make somechanges in order for anything to
happen to get to that vision.
So you all have made somereally amazing changes in the
past few years here in Oaklandand we want to talk about two of
(07:59):
them today.
So we're going to dig in prettydeep to two of them.
The two are curriculum.
So number one they adoptedcurriculum.
So we're going to dig in prettydeep to two of them.
The two are curriculum.
So number one they adoptedcurriculum, so we're going to
talk about that.
And then also coaching, sogetting literacy coaches in all
the schools for ongoingprofessional learning.
So we'll start with thecurriculum and, leroy, I'm going
to start with you Curriculumadoption and curriculum
(08:22):
implementation is big.
So we want to hear first, whatwas it like at the district
level, like how did that rollout?
Leroy Gaines (08:29):
Yeah, no, absolutely, yeah, it was easy.
Melissa (08:33):
Yeah, no problem, so easy.
Leroy Gaines (08:40):
No, I mean, it's hard to talk about this without
talking about the source, whereOakland has been and where we
are now.
And we've, I mean, in many ways, oakland has been historically
an autonomous small schoolsdistrict, a lot of autonomy at
the different sites.
So then, what ended uphappening over the course of
(09:00):
years was each school sort ofhad their own version, their own
curriculum for literacy, andwhat we noticed when you look at
it and you sort of pull back,is that we had some winners and
we had some losers, and someschools were doing really well
and some weren't doing so well,and we realized that one of the
(09:22):
at the base of that was that wewere all using different
curriculum.
At the base of that was that wewere all using different
curriculum.
So we made an effort to say hey, in order to be more equitable,
to be able to support schoolsand make sure that we're lifting
everyone up, let's start thisinitiative to have high-quality
curriculum at all schools.
And we would think it would bea technical thing.
(09:42):
Let's figure out the funding,let's figure out who we're going
to go with, let's figure outhow we do the professional
development and schedule it.
But it was a huge adaptive shift, and there's a lot of.
Let's just say that I mean, asa former classroom teacher and
as a person who likes, I alwaysthink I'm doing the right thing
(10:03):
and I like the way I do my stuffand I invest in that, I have my
own feelings around instructionand pedagogy.
So to shift in that manner,even at our school we realized
we had to give something up forthe greater good and we thought
we were doing some pretty goodstuff at Acorn and we were like,
okay, we're going to do this sowe can all be aligned and be
(10:24):
part of this unified schooldistrict.
So that's where we were and,amazingly, every school, all the
leaders, everyone was like,yeah, that makes sense.
Like if this is going to helpOakland, then we're in, we're
like great.
And then we tried to do it andwe're like now we got to
actually get this and we got tomake this work.
And we were like now we've gotto actually get this and we've
(10:45):
got to make this work.
And that's when it became achallenge, because everyone was
in different places.
Some people had started somework with standards-based
curriculum.
Some folks were still usingLucy Calkins, some folks were
still using OpenCore.
Some were like I don't knowwhat you guys are using and
trying to get, so we had tofigure out a method to be able
to get the buy-in.
So we had pilots, we haddifferent schools trying out
(11:07):
different curriculum and once wesort of landed on one, it was
just this is what we're doing,no waivers, you can't break away
from this and we're just goingfull steam ahead.
And I'll talk a little bitabout some of the techniques and
the things that we did andthere's definitely learnings
from that.
But at the core was we just hadto get people bought into a
(11:29):
vision of a one Oakland modelthat we're all in this together
and we're going to move ahead.
The only way to move forwardfor our students was to move
together.
Melissa (11:37):
All right, talha.
So what did this feel like atthe school level?
Because that's where the workhappens, right?
So how did it feel at yourschool level?
Because that's.
Tala Kauzer (11:44):
I mean, that's where the work happens right.
So how did it feel at yourschool?
Yeah, I was in the classroomwhen we decided to start
adopting district-widecurriculum, especially for ELA
at the time, and we first workedwith Witt Wisdom and we had
Witt Wisdom for two years beforewe started doing EL and I it
was my first year in theclassroom and I was given this
(12:05):
very dense curriculum and wastold okay, let's go Teach your
kids.
This is standards aligned, it'sall you know X, y and Z that
we're looking for.
And I think, because it was myfirst year in the classroom, I
had a slightly easier transitionbecause I wasn't holding on to
methods and practices that I'dalready established and I was
(12:26):
pretty willing to kind of takeit and run with it.
But there was definitely alearning curve with that and how
challenging the work seemed forme to be giving to
five-year-olds and me nottotally having my feet
underneath me and understandingwhat I was doing.
I mean, like, well, this is ahuge ask, like they're five.
But with a lot of coaching andsupport from Leroy and who our
(12:50):
principal is now used to be, theTSA Jalissa, and a lot of
support from y'all and guidancefrom y'all, we were able to get
it rolled out, and then that waswith Witten Wisdom, and then
there was the pivot to EL, and Iwas like I just learned Witten
Wisdom.
Lori (13:05):
Here's another.
Melissa (13:07):
How am I supposed?
Leroy Gaines (13:07):
to pivot now.
Tala Kauzer (13:09):
And so I think you know of course there are
frustrations that come with that, but when you really think
about it critically and thebenefits that it has for your
students and thinking about asan equity component, we need to
be teaching the same thing toall of our kids across every
single school site, and if we'renot, kids are getting left
behind and that's not fair.
So you kind of got to roll withthe punches and eventually you
(13:34):
come out stronger on the otherside.
But there's definitely I thinkthere's still a lot of teachers
that are struggling with EL inparticular, and there's a lot of
elements that EL has.
There's the core curriculum andthen we also adopted the
all-block curriculum for theupper grades, three to five,
which is a centers modelessentially, and we're still
working on implementation ofthat at ACORN and at many other
(13:57):
sites.
We're all-block adjacent rightnow but we're slowly still
rolling out and we've had EL forfour, five years, five years
now, yeah, yeah.
Leroy Gaines (14:08):
I think what's important to note about that too
, and what Talha mentioned, is,at Acorn Woodland we adopted for
ourselves.
We adopted wit and wisdom,probably three years.
So Acorn's been doing this foralmost eight years of having a
very, you were a little aheadand when you look at it in terms
of standards years- so weacorn's been doing this for
almost eight years of having alittle head and um and when you
look at it in terms of standardsand the way it's sort of
structured and um and so to, tohave a school go from three
(14:32):
years of doing that and gettingyou know their feet wet and
understanding it and then thedistrict coming and saying we're
going to go to el ed.
It's a stiff.
Even that was a shift right inyour practice.
But then if you're doing LucyCalkins and they're like
tomorrow we're doing EELED andwe need to see you start this
with those students, that's ahuge lift for that school and
(14:56):
for the folks and that's a bigshift and change.
And at the district officethere was a recognition of this.
I think we knew that we need tohave a differentiated model.
We needed to roll this out andnot have a one-size-fits-all.
We couldn't bring all theteachers into a room like this
and say, okay, step one, we'regoing to do this because people
(15:17):
are at different steps.
So we employed a model ofessentially we're going to train
the trainer and we're going tohave those folks.
And you mentioned Julissa whowas our TSA and that's teacher
on special assignment.
So that's the school-basedcoach which each school had and
currently has a teacher who issupporting professional
(15:40):
development and coaching andsupporting the rollout of these
programs, and we thought thatthat was essential professional
development and coaching andsupporting the rollout of these
programs and we thought thatthat was essential.
That's a key piece to thepuzzle, because everyone's in
different places.
We don't know the contextnecessarily as a district,
because we have so many schools.
These folks could take thisinformation and tailor it and
(16:01):
guide each teacher in the systemthat they're sort of building
to.
Yeah, to help get us there.
Melissa (16:06):
Can I just ask real quick about curriculum?
Is this just for the likelanguage comprehension side of
things?
What about the foundationalskills?
Leroy Gaines (16:16):
Yeah, we had to adopt that too.
I'm like who wants to go firston that one?
Do you want to go?
El has both, so I wasn't surewhere.
Yeah, so we didn't adoptfoundational skills with with el
.
Tala Kauzer (16:25):
so we just adopted the core language arts
curriculum, um, and then we,when I first started at acorn,
we didn't have a phonicscurriculum that we were using.
It was entirely differentiated.
So I was doing an hour ofcenters teaching specifically to
each of my group's needs,without a whole group component
(16:47):
really per se, which at the timeI was thinking like, okay,
great, I'm specializing exactlyto what my students need.
But when I think about it nowas a much more experienced
educator, there's a huge gapthere as well.
It takes a lot of time and alsothat whole group instruction
covering the grade level contentthat needs to happen was
completely lacking.
So if I have a group of kidswho came in not knowing any
(17:08):
letter names and sounds and bythe end of the year we're on to
CVC's early digraphs, that'swhere they cut off.
Whereas if I had kids whoalready knew their letter sounds
by the time they leftkindergarten they were reading
final E, blends digraphs, thewhole everything prior, lens
diagraphs, the whole everythingprior.
And so when I think about it onthat side, you know it felt
like it was good work and I wasseeing kids grow, but there
(17:29):
wasn't the broad scaleoverarching instruction.
Leroy Gaines (17:34):
Yeah, yeah, no, we didn't have a tier one phonics
program and I think our approachat Acorn Woodland we're at the
site was really DIBLS, which isan assessment of early literacy.
We used that to figure outwhere and we had I don't even
(17:55):
remember this, but we had a roomthat had probably every early
lit, every phonics program underthe sun was just in this room.
Tala Kauzer (18:02):
They're still there .
They're still there.
I'm working on cleaning themout right now.
Leroy Gaines (18:05):
We're like everything was in there and we
were just like, okay, we'regoing to use this if a kid needs
digraphs, and we're going touse this program here.
Lori (18:13):
if we're thinking for autonomous, how overwhelming for
teachers.
Yeah.
Leroy Gaines (18:16):
So all the teachers are like in there all
day long just pulling.
Lori (18:19):
And kids too.
Leroy Gaines (18:19):
right, like the systems are different in each
program, yeah, so it was just,you know, in this hour long.
So it was a heavy lift, alongwith the heavy lift of
everything else, of adopting ourcore ELA program.
And yeah, so, at this moment,right now, this week, we have
(18:39):
come to a place where we finallylanded on a tier one, a true
tier one, phonics early literacyprogram that, then, will help
us standardize this across thecity, and what we've been using
was essentially a verydifferentiated model.
We were using SIPs as our youknow, and I don't want to say
what you're using as a tier one,but yeah, we were using as a
(19:01):
tier one.
That was what we weredifferentiating to that degree
and it's, you know, we want tomove that to tier two and to
tier three.
So that's what we're in theprocess currently.
Lori (19:12):
Okay, so I have some follow-up questions.
I want to dig into the coachinga little bit more, because
that's that's a shift that youtalked about but we didn't dig
into, and with the coaching, Ithink what you're talking about
is shifting from materials tohigher quality materials.
You're shifting mindsets andalso systems, like systems that
(19:32):
are in place in your schoolbuildings in your district.
So, leroy, I'm going to ask youto kick us off and share a
little bit about what thiscoaching looks like.
Big picture zoomed out.
Leroy Gaines (19:42):
Yeah, so the coaching is, I mean it's, it's
we have.
And the thing about this is onething you need to understand
about OUSD and I'm very biased,obviously, because we have
wonderful people, just brilliant, wonderful people, Just
(20:03):
brilliant, brilliant, brilliantpeople and our academic team is
so strong and we lean on theacademic team to develop
professional development forthese coaches, and so the TSAs
come together once a month as acohort and that's where we're
basically teaching them.
This is what's coming up nextin the curriculum.
This is the assessment.
These are the PDs that we'resuggesting that you do.
(20:25):
How do you tailor these for yoursite?
This is how you could go into aclassroom and coach a teacher
if they need support and this orthat.
So they're planning these PDs,we call them our academic
partners, and then they're alsogoing to the sites and providing
on-the-ground support.
So they'll go and they'll go onwalkthroughs and support TSAs
(20:47):
and observing and givingfeedback to teachers or helping
to assess and determine, like,how are we doing in terms of our
implementation of EL right, andwe have indicators that support
with that.
Melissa (20:59):
We've already TSAs.
Are there coaches oh?
Leroy Gaines (21:00):
teachers.
Yeah, the district coaches,thank you.
Yes, I need to.
We have so many acronyms.
Melissa (21:04):
We have so many acronyms in education the
airport folks.
Leroy Gaines (21:07):
This is like, yeah , literacy coaches and math
coaches at the sites, but no, wereally do lean on our academic
team to support the sites inthat manner, to coach and then
from there they go into thesites and they're really um
coaching on the ground, but alsoin these like once a month
professional developmentsessions yeah, the the monthly
(21:29):
professional developmentsessions are very cool.
Tala Kauzer (21:31):
It's our coaching collaborative, jamila is here,
who was in charge of a lot ofour network.
Leroy Gaines (21:38):
She's brilliant she's wonderful.
Tala Kauzer (21:40):
She's wonderful, yeah, and it's a really cool
space where coaches can cometogether and kind of as thought
partners and you do classroomwalkthroughs.
So you have all your TSAs, yourcoaches from your different
sites within your network.
So again, ousa has a couplenetworks, so I'm part of Network
3.
So all of the TSAs from Network3 come together once a month at
(22:01):
a different school site and wedo walk-throughs of classrooms
and we observe instruction andkind of calibrate and norm on
what we're seeing and providegroup feedback for the TSA of
that site to give to theteachers that we saw.
We have consultancy spaces wherewe normally on Zoom will log on
(22:22):
and say, hey, I'm encounteringthis with a teacher and I'm
really needing support or we'rehaving a really hard time with
writing right now.
What are you doing with writingat your site?
And it's just a very cool spacethat exists that I don't know
that a lot of other districtshave, per se, where it's just a
huge group of thought partnersthat come together and make
sense of what's happening attheir school sites and then we
(22:43):
bring that back to ourindividual sites and then
distribute it out to teachersand give them the tools that
they need to then put that intopractice in their classrooms.
So I think the model of havingTSAs and I know a lot of
districts have TSAs, but I thinkthe way that OUSC does it is
very productive in that you giveus all the tools that we need.
You train us very thoroughly sothat then we can go to sites
(23:06):
and make sure that our teachersare implementing strong,
rigorous instruction so that ourkids grow and it's normed
across the sites.
Leroy Gaines (23:14):
Jamila is very happy to hear that, is very
happy to hear that.
One thing I would add is thisis that we in Oakland we also
have and this is probably notunique to our district, but we
have so many new teachers and somany new teachers I don't know
(23:34):
what the exact number is so I'mnot going to say it, but it's
definitely more than half of ourteachers are professional
within the first three years.
And what we also notice isthey're, um, they're not coming
to us prepared to and in whichmakes this makes more sense, but
they're not coming to usknowing how to take a curriculum
, break it apart, understandwhat the focal and the high
(23:56):
leverage standards are and then,like you know, and then deal
with the classroom managementgrowth that is necessary to
develop in your first coupleyears.
This is really difficult.
So, in essence, a lot of ourschools are almost like intern
learning labs, like right, andto not have and not be able to
support our teachers with amaster teacher or instructor or
(24:18):
coach is just, I mean, it'scriminal for the teachers and
also for the students who are inthat building.
So we wanted to make sure weinvested in this and we trained
and we brought in our topteacher leaders, our top
instructional minds, made themthe TSAs and provide those guys
with the coaching and thesupport that they need to enact
this.
So I'm happy to hear that itworks.
I'm just happy to hear that itworks.
(24:39):
We're all here.
Hopefully my boss is hearing it.
She's happy this works, butit's a system that you know.
We're trying to acknowledge thereality of where we are too.
Tala Kauzer (24:50):
Yeah, I think about , like my individual school site
and five of my 12 teachers thatI work with are currently
uncredentialed, either TFA,going through a program or
enrolled in a program doing anintern credential.
And I think about, like I didan intern credential and if I
didn't have the support of a TSA, I would have been floundering.
(25:11):
I would not have known what todo and how to differentiate
appropriately and to make surethat I was meeting the needs of
all of my students.
I think I would have had a veryhard time and I don't know if I
still would be in education ifI didn't have that support, um,
and so I think a lot about thatwhen I go into my coaching
sessions, um, because I was inthe exact shoes of the teachers
(25:34):
that I'm working with, um andthinking about like do you want
me to go into the coaching cycleand like what that looks like?
Lori (25:42):
I mean, I would like to.
Would you all want to hearabout it?
Leroy Gaines (25:45):
Everyone wants to hear about the coaching cycle.
Lori (25:47):
Yeah, we can take a poll from the audience.
Melissa (25:49):
Yeah, we can take a poll they want to hear.
Tala Kauzer (25:51):
Yeah, so it's a really I think each site does it
slightly differently.
I meet with every teacher at mysite because I'm part of a
small school, so we only have 12teachers, which is pretty small
in terms of an OUSD school.
So I'm able to meet with eachof my teachers once a week for
(26:13):
40 minutes and during that timewe go through either lessons,
unit planning, module planningor we analyze student data.
But I think the really coolthing is just digging deep into
the module and unit planningmodule planning or we analyze
student data.
But I think the really coolthing is just digging deep into
the module and unit planningwith the teachers and watching
them make sense of it, even ifthey've taught it previously.
Each time you go through it yougo a little deeper and you make
more sense of a differentcomponent that you didn't think
(26:33):
about the first time or maybeyou didn't touch on quite enough
the first time you taught it.
So we start with like orientingthe unit or module at a pretty
high level.
Think about like big ideas andessential questions and the
knowledge story, what knowledgewe want kids to walk away with
from it, standards, and then howthe module connects to students
(26:55):
, like what are they going tobuy in?
Are they going to find itimportant, are they going to
connect with it?
And if we think they mightstruggle with that, then how can
we find that buy-in?
And then after that we kind ofgo into the individual lesson
level, and this happens across afew sessions, because 40
minutes isn't enough to unpackan entire module or unit.
As we know, it takes muchlonger than that.
(27:18):
But yeah, then we likebackwards plan from the
assessment.
We identify the focal standards, what kids need to walk away
with to show mastery, thinkabout the demand of the task and
which standards it targets.
And then how are each of thoselessons teaching to that
standard?
If we want kids to show X, thenwhat is this lesson doing to
pinpoint that standard?
(27:41):
And then thinking about alsoformative assessment
opportunities.
I think a lot of our,especially in ELA, we don't
think about formative assessment.
In math it's really easy tohave an exit ticket where I can
check and see did theyunderstand it?
Great, okay, I know what to dotomorrow.
And in literacy that's a lotmore vague and it's really hard
to pinpoint exactly where yourkids are at.
And so we try and work inopportunities for formative
(28:01):
assessment, whether that is justa turn and talk, and you have
an observational tracker andyou're taking note of what you
hear a student saying so that itinforms your instruction for
the following day or in thefollowing moments.
And so we think about highleverage questions, key
questioning that you can ask inanticipating student
misconception.
If you're not anticipatingstudent misconception, that's a
(28:22):
huge loss for your learning inyour class.
So knowing where to pivot andhow to pivot when there is that
misconception, so it gets veryjuicy and it's very fun, it's a
very fun cycle, and so we havelike a planning cycle, the
teaching, the assessing and thereflection.
That all happens and we kind ofgo through those four stages
over and over and occasionallythere's a focal question or a
(28:47):
focal skill that your teacher isworking on that you dig deeper
into.
But that's the rough breakdown.
Lori (28:54):
Tyler, I want to ask one thing.
So I know we're going to getthis question from our.
Our teachers are going to writein after we post this episode.
How do you do this?
Is it like literally,logistically?
Is it on paper?
Is it on chart paper?
Where and how does it translateinto the lesson?
Is it like in a lesson plan andthen we're taking notes and
then we're holding our lessonplan that we've worked on with
(29:15):
you and the curriculum?
How do they come together?
I know that's not like a briefquestion, but if you could, I
just want to know what it lookslike, like visualize it.
Tala Kauzer (29:24):
Yeah, I think there's a lot of work that we do
.
I'm a very I need to physicallyhave my TE in front of me when
I'm teaching.
I need to touch it.
I'm not remembering everything.
There's no way.
I need my note cards, I need mynotes, and it also helps keep
me on track because I can getsidetracked pretty easily.
And so we do a lot of planningwithin our curriculum
(29:46):
highlighting, underlining,annotating and then I also have
a separate document that I usewith my teachers that they print
out and then put in the frontof their TE or whatever lesson
they are on.
That is specifically gearedtowards the focal questions that
they want to ask and then theback pocket questions for
follow-up when there aremisconceptions that they're
(30:06):
referring to as they teach andso they might have like a star
in their TE next to a questionthat they know might be higher
leverage and their studentsmight struggle with, and then
they know to go to their paperto then ask that follow-up
question.
Not all teachers want to usetheir TE or have their TE
physically in front of them,which is, I think, a constant
battle, and if that's the case,then it's okay.
(30:28):
Then you're scripting it.
Do you have a script in frontof you of what you're going to
say.
Do you know exactly what you'regoing to say?
Because you can't do this onthe fly.
Your kids aren't going to growif you did it on the fly.
That's not fair and it's notrigorous enough.
So, a lot of either you'rescrimping it or you're holding
your tea.
Melissa (30:43):
I just love how much you all are anticipating things
and getting in front of thosechallenges before they happen.
Because it's, I mean,especially if, with first year
teachers, you know you get inthat point of oh gosh, they're
not loving this book or theydidn't get this thing that I
thought they were going to get,and you don't know what to do,
right.
But I love that you all arethinking ahead, so they're ready
(31:04):
for that.
So you know it's not juststanding up and reading a script
, but it's.
You know, I've already thoughtthrough what's going to happen
if they don't get it, and I knowwhere to go from there.
Tala Kauzer (31:12):
That is so powerful , and of course it doesn't
always work.
It's not like okay, and ofcourse it doesn't always work.
It's not like, okay, we havebackup questions, we have
scaffolding questions, they getit Like of course, there are
going to be times when theteachers come back to me and
they're like that didn't work.
We're really struggling withthe standards still, and then
that's when we go back into ourassess and reflect and then have
a new cycle based on whateverstandard it is that we need to
focus on.
But a good guide.
Melissa (31:34):
Well know that there's some challenges with these big
changes.
You brought it up already,leroy of you know that it's hard
.
Any change is hard, butespecially here you're asking
teachers to change what they'reteaching, how they're teaching.
For some teachers this wasreally big change.
So that's hard anywhere thatyou are, especially in a large
(31:55):
district like this, and we won'tmake you rehash all those
challenges.
That wouldn't be very fun.
But we are curious about youknow.
What do you, from yourperspectives, what do you feel
like still needs to happen herein OUSD to meet that vision that
we talked about at thebeginning?
Leroy Gaines (32:15):
The first part is happening as we speak, which is
our adoption of a tier onephonics program and, I think,
the early literacy program.
Once we get that in place,that's going to solve one of our
quadrants.
We're hoping, right, and thenwe're going to, we don't have to
worry about that anymore, andthen we're good, and then, but
you know God, I'm like this issuch a tough.
(32:35):
There's so many things, there'sso many things.
There's so many things we needto do, but we can't do them all
at once.
And I think one of the big onesand I mentioned this earlier is
language, and we really do needto figure out how are we
supporting our students withdeveloping language.
And the reason I say that isbecause there's this and I'll
(33:00):
share this with you is that mymom is from Honduras.
She speaks Spanish.
I grew up speaking Spanish andthen I went to school and I was
told I can't speak Spanishanymore, because then they were
like you're not learning English, you're not reading right, and
so there's a conflict within ourhouse about how do I keep my
culture which is, you know,often culture is held in
language right, in the way wespeak, and also be able to be
(33:22):
successful in this system, right, and be able to.
So my mom was like then we'rejust going to, you're not going
to, we're not going to speakSpanish, like you're just going
to go and learn English andyou're going to move forward and
and, and and do that.
And if now you'll see a starkdifference between me and my
family because I, I believe Ispeak well, I speak good English
, and and, and my family speaksreally good Spanish, I don't and
(33:49):
, but that is this, this, it'slike you go back home and you're
like oh, you know you have.
So we don't want that for ourkids.
They want to figure out how dowe add and like, but we don't
have enough time in the day andwe don't have like a.
So this is sort of a conundrumfor us is to be to have this
approach to language andliteracy.
That is additive, right.
So we're trying to figure thisout, especially as we get new
(34:11):
newcomers all the time.
So that's one that's a uniquechallenge for us.
I think the other is actuallyaround our MTSS structure just
generally, and I think all sidesof MTSS, and we need to anchor
that in a common assessmentsystem that's coherent and
(34:33):
actionable at the school sitelevel and we're still developing
that.
So we have assessments.
We have a lot of differentassessments and versions, and
still developing that.
So we have assessments, we havea lot of different assessments
and versions and forms of it,but we don't know how to.
It's not like, I think, what wehear at the school sites is
okay, great, we did thisassessment, and what does this
do for us?
Now?
What?
Yeah, right now, what Is thisfor you, leroy?
(34:54):
I'm like no, I don't want allthese numbers, I want the
assessment, but it's not for me,it's for you in the classroom,
to inform what our students aredoing.
And so there's that aspect too,and I think you know I've been
on this thing in this recentkick of that.
We need, we need the community,and this is one thing that I
(35:19):
realized with our currentprogram.
We call it ELL, but it's reallyexpeditionary.
It's expeditionary learning,and for folks who have been in
the game for a while, you know,expeditionary learning is you're
out and you're learning, andkids are doing, and there's a
lot of ownership of that, and Ithink the way that we've rolled
out our program, which is alearning that we're coming to,
(35:40):
is it feels scripted when you'rein a classroom.
It's like kids are likereceiving and it's very much and
we're like, no, we actuallywant to.
We want a little bit of theexpeditionary learning component
.
We want to be out in thecommunity and we're very
privileged.
Um, along with having justwonderful people, we have
wonderful organizations like ll,like chapter five, one which is
(36:02):
a phenomenal organization thatdoesn't get enough praise and
acknowledgement, like and, andthey're all here Fulcrum, I
pointed over here, and thewonderful work that cream is
organization is doing and and isdoing.
But we're sort of working insilos and as a district we
(36:24):
haven't really created thevision of and we haven't tapped
into folks to say, hey, help usbring this alive, help us with
our bird unit so that our secondgraders, our first graders, are
going to a bird sanctuary.
Help us get the bus tickets tobe able to do that and help us
bring people in and those peopleare here right to be able to do
(36:45):
this.
And we just haven't done thework of tapping into our
partners and creating a commonvision that we're all working in
the same direction, because Ithink folks are just sort of
working in their own areas.
So, because the lift is so hugeRight now, we have.
According, I mean, to our lastassessments we have, 28% of our
students are proficient inreading in the city.
And I think, with all theeffort, all the things that
(37:09):
we've done, the curriculum,we've made so much movement in
these structures, in thesesystems, in our work, but we
haven't seen it quite get.
We haven't seen it move.
The move we were like it's flat.
We've just been flat.
So I think that that's a bigplace that we need to invest in
(37:34):
is bringing the community andbringing in the joy of this work
, of working with kids and doingliteracy.
If you listen to tala for likea few minutes, one is tala is
like one of the biggest like Imean this is the most loving
like the biggest like literacynerd.
Like like she says her lovelanguage is like you start
talking about like hegrity andyou start talking about like the
(37:56):
scarborough's rope and she getsreally excited.
Lori (38:06):
So I think you're taken.
Though, tala, right, you didget married, I heard, so anybody
out?
Leroy Gaines (38:09):
there.
Yeah, don't get any ideas, guys, but this is, this is, I mean,
and I think like, it's just that, that like joy.
And you know, we were in aclassroom yesterday with a
student and, oh my God, he, helooks at us and they're working
in a group together and theywere studying birds and God, I
don't even know the term forbirds.
The teacher said ornithologistsIs that right?
(38:30):
Ornithologists?
I wrote it down.
I was like what is theornithologist?
I was taking notes.
I was like ornithologist andhe's like orthonautology and
he's like, oh, a person whostudies birds.
If you look at the beak, thebeak is designed to crack the
nut.
And then I was like what is asa first grader is a six-year-old
and I'm like this is amazing.
But the joy of being able toshare that learning, the joy of
being like I'm an expert and Iread this and I know this and I
(38:53):
let me teach you, mr, whoeveryou are, and uh, and that was
that was just a moment where Iwas like, yeah, we're on the
right track, it's just we're not.
We need more to be able to pushus over the edge.
Tala Kauzer (39:04):
Yeah, but I think just using data to drive
instruction is something thatwe're also really working with
teachers on is you're teaching,but how do you know if what
you're doing is impactful andhow do you know if your kids are
actually learning from it?
And are you waiting for yoursummative at the end of the
module?
Are you waiting for the SBAC?
(39:24):
Are you waiting for whatever itis to find out how your kids
did?
You shouldn't be.
You should be constantlyassessing your students using
formative assessment to knowwhere they're at, so that you
are curating your instruction totheir needs.
And I think that that is a hugeshift for teachers and it's a
big ask to ask them toconstantly be assessing and
using anything that's happeningin their class as data.
(39:45):
But I think it's a huge pushthat we're we're working towards
and we have common assessmentsthat we analyze across, like
during coaching, collaborativeacross the school sites.
We'll all look at ELN moduletwo, unit three, end of unit
assessment, whatever it is, andwe look our what each school
site is doing and we're movingtowards more calibrated
assessment systems.
(40:05):
But that is a challenge againwith the language demands and
having different curriculumsacross across those strands.
Leroy Gaines (40:15):
No, there's, you know it's.
It's funny.
I was serious.
I got really deep in thethought around the the, the
bilingual program, particularlyat Acorn-Winland, in the early
transition, and you know it'sfunny.
So when I was principal therethis is years ago they were like
you need to get rid of thisprogram.
It doesn't work.
There's no science, there'slike there's no research that
says it works.
And then I was showing the data.
I I mean it wasn't that I wasadvocating necessarily for that
(40:42):
particular form of and what anearly transition program is.
For folks who might not know,this is a traditional sort of
dual language program is veryadditive.
It's saying, okay, we're goingto teach you in your home
language, but we're also goingto teach you English or whatever
the other thing is, and we'regoing to do both, so you're
building on both languages.
And then there was this otherprogram which we were doing
(41:03):
which was, I mean, it's notadditive, it's actually saying
we're transitioning to Englishbecause we need you to get
English and we're going to teachyou in your language, but it's
not to build your language, it'sactually get you to come into
the English class and be able to, you know, perform at grade
level in English.
So we had this program thatwould end at third grade and the
(41:29):
way that we and this is whatyou know if, listening to this,
I was like, oh, we were actuallyintentional about this is the
curriculum that we use what wedid in the Spanish track was we
were saying we actually need toteach you guys, we need to
accelerate you in Spanish.
Spanish track was we weresaying we actually need to teach
you guys, we need to accelerateyou in Spanish and we need you
to learn the standards at leasta half a year ahead of where you
should be in grade level.
So if your third grade inEnglish is at third grade,
that's the benchmark End ofthird grade.
(41:51):
We're in the bilingual program.
You guys need to be atmid-fourth grade.
And the reason we did that wasbecause we were like, when you
get to fourth grade, we need youto have already had experience
in your home language of thecontent, the grade level
standards, and have mastery ofthat, so that when you
transition to English, youalready have the conceptual
understanding or the conceptsyou understand.
(42:12):
It's just the language you needto build.
So then we saw that transitionand we actually saw the students
in the Spanish strandoutperform our students in the
English strand because they, youknow.
So we were like, okay, this,this works, but it wasn't, you
know, like I said, it wasn'tadditive.
So that aspect of like,maintaining the culture was
always a challenge for us.
But anyway, I share thatbecause the intentionality and
(42:36):
the classroom and the buildingof this, the teachers, had to
understand this concept.
They had to understand that.
They were like we need to knowthe standards, we need to be
intentional about pushing ourkids as much and accelerating.
So when a student wasn'tperforming, we actually pushed
even harder.
So instead of like we're like,oh, you're falling behind, we're
like, okay, now we need toactually get you build the
(42:56):
scaffold here, but we need toget you to grade level and
beyond so that then we could dothat.
And you know, and it worked.
But it's a heavy lift forteachers and it's a heavy lift
for a school to manage that kindof complex All right.
Lori (43:08):
So with that I'm going to bring us to a close here.
I'd love to know what advicewould you give to teachers who
are doing this work, and you canthink about teachers in your
own district.
You're also talking to teachersall across the world on our
podcast, so open forinterpretation.
Tala Kauzer (43:25):
I think, trusting the process.
These things are chosen for areason and as a school, that was
a part of a lot of differentpilot programs, especially for
our foundational skills.
We tried program after programand then we've recently landed
on something that I am superexcited about and I think is
(43:46):
very, very strong.
We can't talk about it, butit's a very strong curriculum
and.
I think, just knowing there is amethod to the madness yes, it
might be a lot of work and areally heavy lift and a lot of
change and it might feelmaddening, but in the end there
is a reason and trusting thatprocess with it, and I think
(44:09):
also I mean you guys talk aboutthe F word, fidelity Like
teaching with fidelity andintegrity.
And like really attempting asbest you can to teach with
fidelity and integrity.
When you are adopting a newcurriculum and knowing, like I
was talking to one of my coachesthis year and she had said
something to me about when youchange the question in the
(44:29):
curriculum, it's not because youknow your kids better.
You're not making it moreaccessible to them.
You're lowering the level ofrigor.
You need to teach it withfidelity.
You don't know your kids better.
You're lowering the rigor ofrigor.
You need to teach it withfidelity.
You don't know your kids better.
You're lowering the rigor.
And like really holding on tothat and keeping that in mind as
we are working with teachersthrough this dense heady
curriculum is trust the process,because in the end, like, yes,
(44:50):
of course there's going to bethe initial dip in scores with
the new adoption of curriculum,but eventually we do see a lot
of growth.
Leroy Gaines (45:04):
That's a good point.
Yeah, I like this is.
There's folks in East Coastlistening to this, so I guess my
it's beautiful.
Here in Oakland it's like 65,almost 70 degrees.
Tala Kauzer (45:18):
It's wild.
Leroy Gaines (45:19):
We have hella positions open, so if you're
listening, to.
Lori (45:25):
We'll help you get credential, I'll give you my
credential, you get to work withyou both right, directly with
you both.
Leroy Gaines (45:33):
This is like so come first.
That's my first message, andthen no, you know what's?
I've always felt that, um, like, as like me myself, I'm always
been very content agnostic, andI say that because I think the
curriculums they're publisherseven the best of them they're
(45:54):
publishers, and they're justtrying to sell some stuff to you
, right, they're like this, likethis is a big business, like I
think, yeah, like this is a bigbusiness.
So I think I'm always like,yeah, it's just, and it's a tool
to get to the standard.
And I think, if you're a teacher, what's in your best interest,
the best interest of the kids infront of you, is like to really
master your standards, likeknow your standard in and out,
(46:18):
know what it looks like in realtime, and that's actually going
to make whatever curriculum youhave come alive.
You'll be able to fill the gaps,because even the best
curriculum and I love thecurriculum that we currently
have it has gaps.
Like you have to understand,you have to take it apart, and
once you're able to do that, Ithink that's the science, right,
that's like the science of thework is to be able to do that.
(46:46):
Then you get to do the art partof teaching, right, and then
you get to paint with yourstroke and design, but you have
to, you have to sort of, youhave to do the heavy lift of
really mastering your owncontent standards and getting
there where you're, where you'reknowing that and able to adjust
and fill those gaps, not tochange the questions, but to be
able to determine like is this,to be able to be critical
consumer and be like actually itsays this here, but is that
(47:06):
actually the rigor that thestandard is saying?
Tala Kauzer (47:09):
And I think also with that, with the standards
point, knowing the verticalalignment as well, know what
came before you and know what'scoming after you, so that you
know why you are teaching thestandards that you are teaching.
And you know what they can'twrite, what they're already
coming in with and what theyneed to get to.
Leroy Gaines (47:24):
And if you don't understand the vertical
alignment of your standards,you're still going to teach to
the standards but it's not goingto be as impactful yeah, can I
have one more thing and this isalong the standards, but I think
there is um that we've beentalking about the science of
reading as a nation.
I mean there's articles andthis conference you're probably
going to have multiple sessionsjust around science of reading
(47:46):
and I think we've been doingthis work right.
The core book has been outthere and people you can look at
different, there's differenttools to be able to understand
it.
But really getting into whatdoes it actually mean?
The science of reading, whatare those components and how
does that work?
And not being afraid, it's a lotof work to impact it because
(48:07):
there's a lot of assessing.
You're constantly checking tosee are kids moving?
Did you master this?
Do you know your digraphs?
Do you know your blend?
How do you move kids through?
And I think assessing is notbeing a strong, getting really
strong with your assessments andyour diagnostics and understand
having some assessment.
Literacy actually isn't a badthing.
(48:27):
It shouldn't be a bad word inour profession, because that's
going to reinforce your abilityto enact what we're calling the
science of reading and be veryintentional around that, the
early literacy piece, becauseyou have to have those.
We can't do the work in eled orany of these curriculums,
unless our kids are able to read, and you have to build that.
(48:48):
That foundation has to bereally strong.
So, um, so those two thingsunderstand standards, understand
scarborough's rope and theshufflebind framework and do the
work of that and I think you'regoing to be good.
Every we will hire you here.
Tala Kauzer (48:59):
We'll hire you.
This is a recruitment fair.
It's a recruitment fair.
I was like I've got a littleplatform, we're going to go.
Lori (49:07):
We didn't know that was happening.
You can't miss an opportunityfor that, right?
Yeah, no, well, thank you bothso much.
This is so fun, and thank youfor being here for our very
first live podcast.
Thank you all for being here,thank you.
Good job, good job yeah.
Melissa (49:30):
To stay connected with us, sign up for our email list
at literacypodcastcom, join ourFacebook group and follow us on
Instagram and Twitter.
Lori (49:40):
If this episode resonated with you, take a moment to share
with a teacher friend or leaveus a five-star rating and review
on Apple Podcasts.
Melissa (49:50):
Just a quick reminder that the views and opinions
expressed by the hosts andguests of the Melissa and Lori
Love Literacy Podcast are notnecessarily the opinions of
Great Minds PBC or its employees, we appreciate you so much and
we're so glad you're here tolearn with us.
This podcast episode was recorded with a live
audience at the Literacy andJustice for All Symposium in
Oakland, California.
Lori (00:08):
It was our first live episode and we are so excited
for you to hear our conversationwith two awesome Oakland
educators.
Let's jump in.
Hi teacher friends.
I'm Lori and I'm Melissa.
We are two educators who wantthe best for all kids, and we
know you do too.
Melissa (00:28):
We worked together in Baltimore when the district
adopted a new literacycurriculum.
Lori (00:33):
We realized there was so much more to learn about how to
teach reading and writing.
Melissa (00:39):
Lori, and I can't wait to keep learning with you today.
Well, this is our first livepodcast.
First one we've ever done thisbefore and I'm Melissa, I'm Lori
, hi, yeah, so our podcast isthe Melissa and Lori Love
Literacy Podcast and, as we said, this is our first live podcast
(01:02):
.
Lori (01:02):
We know it's super important to make sure that
every student becomes aproficient reader.
I think that's why we're allhere today and in this live
podcast, we are going to talkwith some amazing educators from
Oakland Unified School District.
They are making.
They are making yeah, go ahead,cheer it on.
Yeah, they have an incredibleliteracy vision.
(01:24):
They're bringing it to life andwe're going to hear all about
it today, with their innovationsand challenges and everything
that goes along with.
You know, implementing anincredible vision.
So thank you so much, both ofyou for being here with us today
, leroy and Tala.
Melissa (01:39):
Yeah.
So our guests today are LeroyGaines.
He's an elementary networksuperintendent, as you heard
before, and he oversees 16elementary schools here in
Oakland.
And then we have Tala Kouser,who is a literacy coach and runs
all of those interventionprograms, kindergarten through
fifth grade at Acorn Elementary.
So welcome to the podcast.
(02:01):
Thank you, we're so excited tohave you here Now, before we
jump totally in to hearing allthe amazing things they do, we
wanted to let them tell you alittle bit more about themselves
.
So if you all could tell usjust a little bit more about
your roles what do you do on aday-to-day basis?
And, most importantly, thesetwo.
They've known each other for awhile, so fill them in on how
(02:22):
you two have crossed paths overthe years.
Leroy Gaines (02:24):
Yeah, no, absolutely no thanks for a while
.
So fill them in on how you twohave crossed paths over the
years.
Yeah, no, absolutely no thanksfor having us.
Thanks for all the kind words.
Lori (02:31):
I was hoping that we would have like the smoke and I could
come through.
You wanted to walk out some?
Yeah, I wanted to walk out some.
Leroy Gaines (02:35):
But this is okay, this works too.
But no, I'm the networksuperintendent.
Here in Oakland we have a lotof elementary schools and so we
split up the elementaries intothree networks and I oversee
network four.
But more importantly and Iguess, the pride, my most proud
position in Oakland has been asthe principal of Acorn Woodland.
(02:56):
That's how I know Tala.
I hired Tala as our teacher andTala came to us as our after
school, as one of our afterschool instructors, and we just
saw so much talent in her andbegged and begged for her to
come and join and get hercredential and yeah, yeah, it
was a really cool and uniqueopportunity.
Tala Kauzer (03:16):
I was very young, I was 21, and they're like you
need to be in a classroom, youneed to teach kindergarten.
And I was like, yeah, I canabsolutely teach kindergarten.
Um, I got my credential and um,my degree is in linguistics,
which is why they wanted me atkindergarten, because I deeply
understand phonics andfoundational skills, and so,
(03:36):
yeah, then we worked together atAcorn for a few years before
you moved on to become bignetwork man.
Lori (03:42):
Well, we're so glad that it brought you back here with
you with us today, and I knowyou both said it felt like a
little party reuniting witheveryone.
So I think it might be a goodtime to think about the literacy
vision for Oakland and thinkingabout that literacy and
language framework.
So I'm going to ask Leroy tojust share the district vision,
(04:05):
a little more about that andanything that you think would be
important to kick us off todaywith this vision in mind.
Leroy Gaines (04:11):
Yeah, so we see here and thank you for being
able to get this on the screen,because it's hard to talk about
this without having this imagein front of you and really, what
you see here is our conceptualframework that we've based our
literacy work around.
We have the four quadrants thatare there.
Our dream, our hope, our vision, our North Star is that all of
(04:32):
our students and all thechildren here in Oakland are
literate and critical thinkers,but, more importantly, we want
to make sure that they're equitychampions.
I think that's particularlyimportant in the current stage
of where we are in our country,and it's important that we're
producing deep thinkers andpeople who are able to make
sense of the world.
And so the work that we'redoing here in Oakland is both
(04:54):
the literacy work but also thisjustice work, and you know
appropriate that we're heretoday, right with the LLC.
But, yeah, I wanted to alsomention this is that we are in a
very I always think of Oaklandand the Bay, but particularly
Oakland is almost like a bubble,and we assume that the politics
(05:17):
and the work that we're doinghere is what everybody's doing,
and we're always shocked to findthat this isn't necessarily the
case.
So when we're asked to come up,we're asked to come and talk
about this.
They're like whoa, talk aboutyour framework, talk about what
you guys are doing in Oakland.
We're like why, like it's?
We're just, you know, we'reteaching kids to read and we're
teaching them to be socialjustice warriors what's
different?
And so now I'm very excited tospeak to and we're going to talk
(05:42):
about this in more depth soon.
Lori (05:43):
Yeah, Now this is a live podcast, so we will have
listeners.
Leroy Gaines (05:47):
Oh sorry, Do you mind?
Lori (05:47):
just sharing each of the four quadrants for our listeners
.
Leroy Gaines (05:50):
I know everybody in the room can see it, yeah
yeah, no, absolutely, I'm like Ineed to see them too.
No, so it's based on these four.
We talk about our theconversations on the science of
reading, and we've been thereand then we've sort of shifted
away from it for a little whileand I think nationally we're
(06:14):
coming back to it and realizingthat we have to have phonics and
phonemic awareness and we haveto be really explicit about how
all those different pieces ofearly literacy come together.
So that's a big part of thisframework making sure we have
standards-based, high-rigor,high-quality ELA program and
curriculum in everybody's handsso our students have access to
grade-level text Integratingwith our ELD.
(06:36):
We have our population here, anumber of newcomers, a number of
English language learners.
We can't get to a place wherewe have strong literacy results
without having to deal with ourlanguage needs right.
So building that into thisframework was a key part of it.
And because of all of this andyou think about the science of
reading we knew assessment andhaving a really clear assessment
(06:59):
framework that's aligned andcoherent to be able to then
operationalize this MTSS modelthat would help us determine
where and how we're distributingthese resources to best impact
student learning.
So that's the framework, butall of this is couched and based
in equity.
And then at the bottom I thinkat the bottom you see that, yeah
(07:21):
, equitable practices.
So that's what it's all couchedin and that's where our north
star is.
Um is that itself.
So, yeah, at the center, youknow, standards-based stuff yeah
, I can't forget, all right.
Melissa (07:37):
So it's great to have this framework, so everyone's on
the same page in the districtand you know we all have the
same goals right, very important.
But we have to make somechanges in order for anything to
happen to get to that vision.
So you all have made somereally amazing changes in the
past few years here in Oaklandand we want to talk about two of
(07:59):
them today.
So we're going to dig in prettydeep to two of them.
The two are curriculum.
So number one they adoptedcurriculum.
So we're going to dig in prettydeep to two of them.
The two are curriculum.
So number one they adoptedcurriculum, so we're going to
talk about that.
And then also coaching, sogetting literacy coaches in all
the schools for ongoingprofessional learning.
So we'll start with thecurriculum and, leroy, I'm going
to start with you Curriculumadoption and curriculum
(08:22):
implementation is big.
So we want to hear first, whatwas it like at the district
level, like how did that rollout?
Leroy Gaines (08:29):
Yeah, no, absolutely, yeah, it was easy.
Melissa (08:33):
Yeah, no problem, so easy.
Leroy Gaines (08:40):
No, I mean, it's hard to talk about this without
talking about the source, whereOakland has been and where we
are now.
And we've, I mean, in many ways, oakland has been historically
an autonomous small schoolsdistrict, a lot of autonomy at
the different sites.
So then, what ended uphappening over the course of
(09:00):
years was each school sort ofhad their own version, their own
curriculum for literacy, andwhat we noticed when you look at
it and you sort of pull back,is that we had some winners and
we had some losers, and someschools were doing really well
and some weren't doing so well,and we realized that one of the
(09:22):
at the base of that was that wewere all using different
curriculum.
At the base of that was that wewere all using different
curriculum.
So we made an effort to say hey, in order to be more equitable,
to be able to support schoolsand make sure that we're lifting
everyone up, let's start thisinitiative to have high-quality
curriculum at all schools.
And we would think it would bea technical thing.
(09:42):
Let's figure out the funding,let's figure out who we're going
to go with, let's figure outhow we do the professional
development and schedule it.
But it was a huge adaptive shift, and there's a lot of.
Let's just say that I mean, asa former classroom teacher and
as a person who likes, I alwaysthink I'm doing the right thing
(10:03):
and I like the way I do my stuffand I invest in that, I have my
own feelings around instructionand pedagogy.
So to shift in that manner,even at our school we realized
we had to give something up forthe greater good and we thought
we were doing some pretty goodstuff at Acorn and we were like,
okay, we're going to do this sowe can all be aligned and be
(10:24):
part of this unified schooldistrict.
So that's where we were and,amazingly, every school, all the
leaders, everyone was like,yeah, that makes sense.
Like if this is going to helpOakland, then we're in, we're
like great.
And then we tried to do it andwe're like now we got to
actually get this and we got tomake this work.
And we were like now we've gotto actually get this and we've
(10:45):
got to make this work.
And that's when it became achallenge, because everyone was
in different places.
Some people had started somework with standards-based
curriculum.
Some folks were still usingLucy Calkins, some folks were
still using OpenCore.
Some were like I don't knowwhat you guys are using and
trying to get, so we had tofigure out a method to be able
to get the buy-in.
So we had pilots, we haddifferent schools trying out
(11:07):
different curriculum and once wesort of landed on one, it was
just this is what we're doing,no waivers, you can't break away
from this and we're just goingfull steam ahead.
And I'll talk a little bitabout some of the techniques and
the things that we did andthere's definitely learnings
from that.
But at the core was we just hadto get people bought into a
(11:29):
vision of a one Oakland modelthat we're all in this together
and we're going to move ahead.
The only way to move forwardfor our students was to move
together.
Melissa (11:37):
All right, talha.
So what did this feel like atthe school level?
Because that's where the workhappens, right?
So how did it feel at yourschool level?
Because that's.
Tala Kauzer (11:44):
I mean, that's where the work happens right.
So how did it feel at yourschool?
Yeah, I was in the classroomwhen we decided to start
adopting district-widecurriculum, especially for ELA
at the time, and we first workedwith Witt Wisdom and we had
Witt Wisdom for two years beforewe started doing EL and I it
was my first year in theclassroom and I was given this
(12:05):
very dense curriculum and wastold okay, let's go Teach your
kids.
This is standards aligned, it'sall you know X, y and Z that
we're looking for.
And I think, because it was myfirst year in the classroom, I
had a slightly easier transitionbecause I wasn't holding on to
methods and practices that I'dalready established and I was
(12:26):
pretty willing to kind of takeit and run with it.
But there was definitely alearning curve with that and how
challenging the work seemed forme to be giving to
five-year-olds and me nottotally having my feet
underneath me and understandingwhat I was doing.
I mean, like, well, this is ahuge ask, like they're five.
But with a lot of coaching andsupport from Leroy and who our
(12:50):
principal is now used to be, theTSA Jalissa, and a lot of
support from y'all and guidancefrom y'all, we were able to get
it rolled out, and then that waswith Witten Wisdom, and then
there was the pivot to EL, and Iwas like I just learned Witten
Wisdom.
Lori (13:05):
Here's another.
Melissa (13:07):
How am I supposed?
Leroy Gaines (13:07):
to pivot now.
Tala Kauzer (13:09):
And so I think you know of course there are
frustrations that come with that, but when you really think
about it critically and thebenefits that it has for your
students and thinking about asan equity component, we need to
be teaching the same thing toall of our kids across every
single school site, and if we'renot, kids are getting left
behind and that's not fair.
So you kind of got to roll withthe punches and eventually you
(13:34):
come out stronger on the otherside.
But there's definitely I thinkthere's still a lot of teachers
that are struggling with EL inparticular, and there's a lot of
elements that EL has.
There's the core curriculum andthen we also adopted the
all-block curriculum for theupper grades, three to five,
which is a centers modelessentially, and we're still
working on implementation ofthat at ACORN and at many other
(13:57):
sites.
We're all-block adjacent rightnow but we're slowly still
rolling out and we've had EL forfour, five years, five years
now, yeah, yeah.
Leroy Gaines (14:08):
I think what's important to note about that too
, and what Talha mentioned, is,at Acorn Woodland we adopted for
ourselves.
We adopted wit and wisdom,probably three years.
So Acorn's been doing this foralmost eight years of having a
very, you were a little aheadand when you look at it in terms
of standards years- so weacorn's been doing this for
almost eight years of having alittle head and um and when you
look at it in terms of standardsand the way it's sort of
structured and um and so to, tohave a school go from three
(14:32):
years of doing that and gettingyou know their feet wet and
understanding it and then thedistrict coming and saying we're
going to go to el ed.
It's a stiff.
Even that was a shift right inyour practice.
But then if you're doing LucyCalkins and they're like
tomorrow we're doing EELED andwe need to see you start this
with those students, that's ahuge lift for that school and
(14:56):
for the folks and that's a bigshift and change.
And at the district officethere was a recognition of this.
I think we knew that we need tohave a differentiated model.
We needed to roll this out andnot have a one-size-fits-all.
We couldn't bring all theteachers into a room like this
and say, okay, step one, we'regoing to do this because people
(15:17):
are at different steps.
So we employed a model ofessentially we're going to train
the trainer and we're going tohave those folks.
And you mentioned Julissa whowas our TSA and that's teacher
on special assignment.
So that's the school-basedcoach which each school had and
currently has a teacher who issupporting professional
(15:40):
development and coaching andsupporting the rollout of these
programs, and we thought thatthat was essential professional
development and coaching andsupporting the rollout of these
programs and we thought thatthat was essential.
That's a key piece to thepuzzle, because everyone's in
different places.
We don't know the contextnecessarily as a district,
because we have so many schools.
These folks could take thisinformation and tailor it and
(16:01):
guide each teacher in the systemthat they're sort of building
to.
Yeah, to help get us there.
Melissa (16:06):
Can I just ask real quick about curriculum?
Is this just for the likelanguage comprehension side of
things?
What about the foundationalskills?
Leroy Gaines (16:16):
Yeah, we had to adopt that too.
I'm like who wants to go firston that one?
Do you want to go?
El has both, so I wasn't surewhere.
Yeah, so we didn't adoptfoundational skills with with el
.
Tala Kauzer (16:25):
so we just adopted the core language arts
curriculum, um, and then we,when I first started at acorn,
we didn't have a phonicscurriculum that we were using.
It was entirely differentiated.
So I was doing an hour ofcenters teaching specifically to
each of my group's needs,without a whole group component
(16:47):
really per se, which at the timeI was thinking like, okay,
great, I'm specializing exactlyto what my students need.
But when I think about it nowas a much more experienced
educator, there's a huge gapthere as well.
It takes a lot of time and alsothat whole group instruction
covering the grade level contentthat needs to happen was
completely lacking.
So if I have a group of kidswho came in not knowing any
(17:08):
letter names and sounds and bythe end of the year we're on to
CVC's early digraphs, that'swhere they cut off.
Whereas if I had kids whoalready knew their letter sounds
by the time they leftkindergarten they were reading
final E, blends digraphs, thewhole everything prior, lens
diagraphs, the whole everythingprior.
And so when I think about it onthat side, you know it felt
like it was good work and I wasseeing kids grow, but there
(17:29):
wasn't the broad scaleoverarching instruction.
Leroy Gaines (17:34):
Yeah, yeah, no, we didn't have a tier one phonics
program and I think our approachat Acorn Woodland we're at the
site was really DIBLS, which isan assessment of early literacy.
We used that to figure outwhere and we had I don't even
(17:55):
remember this, but we had a roomthat had probably every early
lit, every phonics program underthe sun was just in this room.
Tala Kauzer (18:02):
They're still there .
They're still there.
I'm working on cleaning themout right now.
Leroy Gaines (18:05):
We're like everything was in there and we
were just like, okay, we'regoing to use this if a kid needs
digraphs, and we're going touse this program here.
Lori (18:13):
if we're thinking for autonomous, how overwhelming for
teachers.
Yeah.
Leroy Gaines (18:16):
So all the teachers are like in there all
day long just pulling.
Lori (18:19):
And kids too.
Leroy Gaines (18:19):
right, like the systems are different in each
program, yeah, so it was just,you know, in this hour long.
So it was a heavy lift, alongwith the heavy lift of
everything else, of adopting ourcore ELA program.
And yeah, so, at this moment,right now, this week, we have
(18:39):
come to a place where we finallylanded on a tier one, a true
tier one, phonics early literacyprogram that, then, will help
us standardize this across thecity, and what we've been using
was essentially a verydifferentiated model.
We were using SIPs as our youknow, and I don't want to say
what you're using as a tier one,but yeah, we were using as a
(19:01):
tier one.
That was what we weredifferentiating to that degree
and it's, you know, we want tomove that to tier two and to
tier three.
So that's what we're in theprocess currently.
Lori (19:12):
Okay, so I have some follow-up questions.
I want to dig into the coachinga little bit more, because
that's that's a shift that youtalked about but we didn't dig
into, and with the coaching, Ithink what you're talking about
is shifting from materials tohigher quality materials.
You're shifting mindsets andalso systems, like systems that
(19:32):
are in place in your schoolbuildings in your district.
So, leroy, I'm going to ask youto kick us off and share a
little bit about what thiscoaching looks like.
Big picture zoomed out.
Leroy Gaines (19:42):
Yeah, so the coaching is, I mean it's, it's
we have.
And the thing about this is onething you need to understand
about OUSD and I'm very biased,obviously, because we have
wonderful people, just brilliant, wonderful people, Just
(20:03):
brilliant, brilliant, brilliantpeople and our academic team is
so strong and we lean on theacademic team to develop
professional development forthese coaches, and so the TSAs
come together once a month as acohort and that's where we're
basically teaching them.
This is what's coming up nextin the curriculum.
This is the assessment.
These are the PDs that we'resuggesting that you do.
(20:25):
How do you tailor these for yoursite?
This is how you could go into aclassroom and coach a teacher
if they need support and this orthat.
So they're planning these PDs,we call them our academic
partners, and then they're alsogoing to the sites and providing
on-the-ground support.
So they'll go and they'll go onwalkthroughs and support TSAs
(20:47):
and observing and givingfeedback to teachers or helping
to assess and determine, like,how are we doing in terms of our
implementation of EL right, andwe have indicators that support
with that.
Melissa (20:59):
We've already TSAs.
Are there coaches oh?
Leroy Gaines (21:00):
teachers.
Yeah, the district coaches,thank you.
Yes, I need to.
We have so many acronyms.
Melissa (21:04):
We have so many acronyms in education the
airport folks.
Leroy Gaines (21:07):
This is like, yeah , literacy coaches and math
coaches at the sites, but no, wereally do lean on our academic
team to support the sites inthat manner, to coach and then
from there they go into thesites and they're really um
coaching on the ground, but alsoin these like once a month
professional developmentsessions yeah, the the monthly
(21:29):
professional developmentsessions are very cool.
Tala Kauzer (21:31):
It's our coaching collaborative, jamila is here,
who was in charge of a lot ofour network.
Leroy Gaines (21:38):
She's brilliant she's wonderful.
Tala Kauzer (21:40):
She's wonderful, yeah, and it's a really cool
space where coaches can cometogether and kind of as thought
partners and you do classroomwalkthroughs.
So you have all your TSAs, yourcoaches from your different
sites within your network.
So again, ousa has a couplenetworks, so I'm part of Network
3.
So all of the TSAs from Network3 come together once a month at
(22:01):
a different school site and wedo walk-throughs of classrooms
and we observe instruction andkind of calibrate and norm on
what we're seeing and providegroup feedback for the TSA of
that site to give to theteachers that we saw.
We have consultancy spaces wherewe normally on Zoom will log on
(22:22):
and say, hey, I'm encounteringthis with a teacher and I'm
really needing support or we'rehaving a really hard time with
writing right now.
What are you doing with writingat your site?
And it's just a very cool spacethat exists that I don't know
that a lot of other districtshave, per se, where it's just a
huge group of thought partnersthat come together and make
sense of what's happening attheir school sites and then we
(22:43):
bring that back to ourindividual sites and then
distribute it out to teachersand give them the tools that
they need to then put that intopractice in their classrooms.
So I think the model of havingTSAs and I know a lot of
districts have TSAs, but I thinkthe way that OUSC does it is
very productive in that you giveus all the tools that we need.
You train us very thoroughly sothat then we can go to sites
(23:06):
and make sure that our teachersare implementing strong,
rigorous instruction so that ourkids grow and it's normed
across the sites.
Leroy Gaines (23:14):
Jamila is very happy to hear that, is very
happy to hear that.
One thing I would add is thisis that we in Oakland we also
have and this is probably notunique to our district, but we
have so many new teachers and somany new teachers I don't know
(23:34):
what the exact number is so I'mnot going to say it, but it's
definitely more than half of ourteachers are professional
within the first three years.
And what we also notice isthey're, um, they're not coming
to us prepared to and in whichmakes this makes more sense, but
they're not coming to usknowing how to take a curriculum
, break it apart, understandwhat the focal and the high
(23:56):
leverage standards are and then,like you know, and then deal
with the classroom managementgrowth that is necessary to
develop in your first coupleyears.
This is really difficult.
So, in essence, a lot of ourschools are almost like intern
learning labs, like right, andto not have and not be able to
support our teachers with amaster teacher or instructor or
(24:18):
coach is just, I mean, it'scriminal for the teachers and
also for the students who are inthat building.
So we wanted to make sure weinvested in this and we trained
and we brought in our topteacher leaders, our top
instructional minds, made themthe TSAs and provide those guys
with the coaching and thesupport that they need to enact
this.
So I'm happy to hear that itworks.
I'm just happy to hear that itworks.
(24:39):
We're all here.
Hopefully my boss is hearing it.
She's happy this works, butit's a system that you know.
We're trying to acknowledge thereality of where we are too.
Tala Kauzer (24:50):
Yeah, I think about , like my individual school site
and five of my 12 teachers thatI work with are currently
uncredentialed, either TFA,going through a program or
enrolled in a program doing anintern credential.
And I think about, like I didan intern credential and if I
didn't have the support of a TSA, I would have been floundering.
(25:11):
I would not have known what todo and how to differentiate
appropriately and to make surethat I was meeting the needs of
all of my students.
I think I would have had a veryhard time and I don't know if I
still would be in education ifI didn't have that support, um,
and so I think a lot about thatwhen I go into my coaching
sessions, um, because I was inthe exact shoes of the teachers
(25:34):
that I'm working with, um andthinking about like do you want
me to go into the coaching cycleand like what that looks like?
Lori (25:42):
I mean, I would like to.
Would you all want to hearabout it?
Leroy Gaines (25:45):
Everyone wants to hear about the coaching cycle.
Lori (25:47):
Yeah, we can take a poll from the audience.
Melissa (25:49):
Yeah, we can take a poll they want to hear.
Tala Kauzer (25:51):
Yeah, so it's a really I think each site does it
slightly differently.
I meet with every teacher at mysite because I'm part of a
small school, so we only have 12teachers, which is pretty small
in terms of an OUSD school.
So I'm able to meet with eachof my teachers once a week for
(26:13):
40 minutes and during that timewe go through either lessons,
unit planning, module planningor we analyze student data.
But I think the really coolthing is just digging deep into
the module and unit planningmodule planning or we analyze
student data.
But I think the really coolthing is just digging deep into
the module and unit planningwith the teachers and watching
them make sense of it, even ifthey've taught it previously.
Each time you go through it yougo a little deeper and you make
more sense of a differentcomponent that you didn't think
(26:33):
about the first time or maybeyou didn't touch on quite enough
the first time you taught it.
So we start with like orientingthe unit or module at a pretty
high level.
Think about like big ideas andessential questions and the
knowledge story, what knowledgewe want kids to walk away with
from it, standards, and then howthe module connects to students
(26:55):
, like what are they going tobuy in?
Are they going to find itimportant, are they going to
connect with it?
And if we think they mightstruggle with that, then how can
we find that buy-in?
And then after that we kind ofgo into the individual lesson
level, and this happens across afew sessions, because 40
minutes isn't enough to unpackan entire module or unit.
As we know, it takes muchlonger than that.
(27:18):
But yeah, then we likebackwards plan from the
assessment.
We identify the focal standards, what kids need to walk away
with to show mastery, thinkabout the demand of the task and
which standards it targets.
And then how are each of thoselessons teaching to that
standard?
If we want kids to show X, thenwhat is this lesson doing to
pinpoint that standard?
(27:41):
And then thinking about alsoformative assessment
opportunities.
I think a lot of our,especially in ELA, we don't
think about formative assessment.
In math it's really easy tohave an exit ticket where I can
check and see did theyunderstand it?
Great, okay, I know what to dotomorrow.
And in literacy that's a lotmore vague and it's really hard
to pinpoint exactly where yourkids are at.
And so we try and work inopportunities for formative
(28:01):
assessment, whether that is justa turn and talk, and you have
an observational tracker andyou're taking note of what you
hear a student saying so that itinforms your instruction for
the following day or in thefollowing moments.
And so we think about highleverage questions, key
questioning that you can ask inanticipating student
misconception.
If you're not anticipatingstudent misconception, that's a
(28:22):
huge loss for your learning inyour class.
So knowing where to pivot andhow to pivot when there is that
misconception, so it gets veryjuicy and it's very fun, it's a
very fun cycle, and so we havelike a planning cycle, the
teaching, the assessing and thereflection.
That all happens and we kind ofgo through those four stages
over and over and occasionallythere's a focal question or a
(28:47):
focal skill that your teacher isworking on that you dig deeper
into.
But that's the rough breakdown.
Lori (28:54):
Tyler, I want to ask one thing.
So I know we're going to getthis question from our.
Our teachers are going to writein after we post this episode.
How do you do this?
Is it like literally,logistically?
Is it on paper?
Is it on chart paper?
Where and how does it translateinto the lesson?
Is it like in a lesson plan andthen we're taking notes and
then we're holding our lessonplan that we've worked on with
(29:15):
you and the curriculum?
How do they come together?
I know that's not like a briefquestion, but if you could, I
just want to know what it lookslike, like visualize it.
Tala Kauzer (29:24):
Yeah, I think there's a lot of work that we do
.
I'm a very I need to physicallyhave my TE in front of me when
I'm teaching.
I need to touch it.
I'm not remembering everything.
There's no way.
I need my note cards, I need mynotes, and it also helps keep
me on track because I can getsidetracked pretty easily.
And so we do a lot of planningwithin our curriculum
(29:46):
highlighting, underlining,annotating and then I also have
a separate document that I usewith my teachers that they print
out and then put in the frontof their TE or whatever lesson
they are on.
That is specifically gearedtowards the focal questions that
they want to ask and then theback pocket questions for
follow-up when there aremisconceptions that they're
(30:06):
referring to as they teach andso they might have like a star
in their TE next to a questionthat they know might be higher
leverage and their studentsmight struggle with, and then
they know to go to their paperto then ask that follow-up
question.
Not all teachers want to usetheir TE or have their TE
physically in front of them,which is, I think, a constant
battle, and if that's the case,then it's okay.
(30:28):
Then you're scripting it.
Do you have a script in frontof you of what you're going to
say.
Do you know exactly what you'regoing to say?
Because you can't do this onthe fly.
Your kids aren't going to growif you did it on the fly.
That's not fair and it's notrigorous enough.
So, a lot of either you'rescrimping it or you're holding
your tea.
Melissa (30:43):
I just love how much you all are anticipating things
and getting in front of thosechallenges before they happen.
Because it's, I mean,especially if, with first year
teachers, you know you get inthat point of oh gosh, they're
not loving this book or theydidn't get this thing that I
thought they were going to get,and you don't know what to do,
right.
But I love that you all arethinking ahead, so they're ready
(31:04):
for that.
So you know it's not juststanding up and reading a script
, but it's.
You know, I've already thoughtthrough what's going to happen
if they don't get it, and I knowwhere to go from there.
Tala Kauzer (31:12):
That is so powerful , and of course it doesn't
always work.
It's not like okay, and ofcourse it doesn't always work.
It's not like, okay, we havebackup questions, we have
scaffolding questions, they getit Like of course, there are
going to be times when theteachers come back to me and
they're like that didn't work.
We're really struggling withthe standards still, and then
that's when we go back into ourassess and reflect and then have
a new cycle based on whateverstandard it is that we need to
focus on.
But a good guide.
Melissa (31:34):
Well know that there's some challenges with these big
changes.
You brought it up already,leroy of you know that it's hard
.
Any change is hard, butespecially here you're asking
teachers to change what they'reteaching, how they're teaching.
For some teachers this wasreally big change.
So that's hard anywhere thatyou are, especially in a large
(31:55):
district like this, and we won'tmake you rehash all those
challenges.
That wouldn't be very fun.
But we are curious about youknow.
What do you, from yourperspectives, what do you feel
like still needs to happen herein OUSD to meet that vision that
we talked about at thebeginning?
Leroy Gaines (32:15):
The first part is happening as we speak, which is
our adoption of a tier onephonics program and, I think,
the early literacy program.
Once we get that in place,that's going to solve one of our
quadrants.
We're hoping, right, and thenwe're going to, we don't have to
worry about that anymore, andthen we're good, and then, but
you know God, I'm like this issuch a tough.
(32:35):
There's so many things, there'sso many things.
There's so many things we needto do, but we can't do them all
at once.
And I think one of the big onesand I mentioned this earlier is
language, and we really do needto figure out how are we
supporting our students withdeveloping language.
And the reason I say that isbecause there's this and I'll
(33:00):
share this with you is that mymom is from Honduras.
She speaks Spanish.
I grew up speaking Spanish andthen I went to school and I was
told I can't speak Spanishanymore, because then they were
like you're not learning English, you're not reading right, and
so there's a conflict within ourhouse about how do I keep my
culture which is, you know,often culture is held in
language right, in the way wespeak, and also be able to be
(33:22):
successful in this system, right, and be able to.
So my mom was like then we'rejust going to, you're not going
to, we're not going to speakSpanish, like you're just going
to go and learn English andyou're going to move forward and
and, and and do that.
And if now you'll see a starkdifference between me and my
family because I, I believe Ispeak well, I speak good English
, and and, and my family speaksreally good Spanish, I don't and
(33:49):
, but that is this, this, it'slike you go back home and you're
like oh, you know you have.
So we don't want that for ourkids.
They want to figure out how dowe add and like, but we don't
have enough time in the day andwe don't have like a.
So this is sort of a conundrumfor us is to be to have this
approach to language andliteracy.
That is additive, right.
So we're trying to figure thisout, especially as we get new
(34:11):
newcomers all the time.
So that's one that's a uniquechallenge for us.
I think the other is actuallyaround our MTSS structure just
generally, and I think all sidesof MTSS, and we need to anchor
that in a common assessmentsystem that's coherent and
(34:33):
actionable at the school sitelevel and we're still developing
that.
So we have assessments.
We have a lot of differentassessments and versions, and
still developing that.
So we have assessments, we havea lot of different assessments
and versions and forms of it,but we don't know how to.
It's not like, I think, what wehear at the school sites is
okay, great, we did thisassessment, and what does this
do for us?
Now?
What?
Yeah, right now, what Is thisfor you, leroy?
(34:54):
I'm like no, I don't want allthese numbers, I want the
assessment, but it's not for me,it's for you in the classroom,
to inform what our students aredoing.
And so there's that aspect too,and I think you know I've been
on this thing in this recentkick of that.
We need, we need the community,and this is one thing that I
(35:19):
realized with our currentprogram.
We call it ELL, but it's reallyexpeditionary.
It's expeditionary learning,and for folks who have been in
the game for a while, you know,expeditionary learning is you're
out and you're learning, andkids are doing, and there's a
lot of ownership of that, and Ithink the way that we've rolled
out our program, which is alearning that we're coming to,
(35:40):
is it feels scripted when you'rein a classroom.
It's like kids are likereceiving and it's very much and
we're like, no, we actuallywant to.
We want a little bit of theexpeditionary learning component
.
We want to be out in thecommunity and we're very
privileged.
Um, along with having justwonderful people, we have
wonderful organizations like ll,like chapter five, one which is
(36:02):
a phenomenal organization thatdoesn't get enough praise and
acknowledgement, like and, andthey're all here Fulcrum, I
pointed over here, and thewonderful work that cream is
organization is doing and and isdoing.
But we're sort of working insilos and as a district we
(36:24):
haven't really created thevision of and we haven't tapped
into folks to say, hey, help usbring this alive, help us with
our bird unit so that our secondgraders, our first graders, are
going to a bird sanctuary.
Help us get the bus tickets tobe able to do that and help us
bring people in and those peopleare here right to be able to do
(36:45):
this.
And we just haven't done thework of tapping into our
partners and creating a commonvision that we're all working in
the same direction, because Ithink folks are just sort of
working in their own areas.
So, because the lift is so hugeRight now, we have.
According, I mean, to our lastassessments we have, 28% of our
students are proficient inreading in the city.
And I think, with all theeffort, all the things that
(37:09):
we've done, the curriculum,we've made so much movement in
these structures, in thesesystems, in our work, but we
haven't seen it quite get.
We haven't seen it move.
The move we were like it's flat.
We've just been flat.
So I think that that's a bigplace that we need to invest in
(37:34):
is bringing the community andbringing in the joy of this work
, of working with kids and doingliteracy.
If you listen to tala for likea few minutes, one is tala is
like one of the biggest like Imean this is the most loving
like the biggest like literacynerd.
Like like she says her lovelanguage is like you start
talking about like hegrity andyou start talking about like the
(37:56):
scarborough's rope and she getsreally excited.
Lori (38:06):
So I think you're taken.
Though, tala, right, you didget married, I heard, so anybody
out?
Leroy Gaines (38:09):
there.
Yeah, don't get any ideas, guys, but this is, this is, I mean,
and I think like, it's just that, that like joy.
And you know, we were in aclassroom yesterday with a
student and, oh my God, he, helooks at us and they're working
in a group together and theywere studying birds and God, I
don't even know the term forbirds.
The teacher said ornithologistsIs that right?
(38:30):
Ornithologists?
I wrote it down.
I was like what is theornithologist?
I was taking notes.
I was like ornithologist andhe's like orthonautology and
he's like, oh, a person whostudies birds.
If you look at the beak, thebeak is designed to crack the
nut.
And then I was like what is asa first grader is a six-year-old
and I'm like this is amazing.
But the joy of being able toshare that learning, the joy of
being like I'm an expert and Iread this and I know this and I
(38:53):
let me teach you, mr, whoeveryou are, and uh, and that was
that was just a moment where Iwas like, yeah, we're on the
right track, it's just we're not.
We need more to be able to pushus over the edge.
Tala Kauzer (39:04):
Yeah, but I think just using data to drive
instruction is something thatwe're also really working with
teachers on is you're teaching,but how do you know if what
you're doing is impactful andhow do you know if your kids are
actually learning from it?
And are you waiting for yoursummative at the end of the
module?
Are you waiting for the SBAC?
(39:24):
Are you waiting for whatever itis to find out how your kids
did?
You shouldn't be.
You should be constantlyassessing your students using
formative assessment to knowwhere they're at, so that you
are curating your instruction totheir needs.
And I think that that is a hugeshift for teachers and it's a
big ask to ask them toconstantly be assessing and
using anything that's happeningin their class as data.
(39:45):
But I think it's a huge pushthat we're we're working towards
and we have common assessmentsthat we analyze across, like
during coaching, collaborativeacross the school sites.
We'll all look at ELN moduletwo, unit three, end of unit
assessment, whatever it is, andwe look our what each school
site is doing and we're movingtowards more calibrated
assessment systems.
(40:05):
But that is a challenge againwith the language demands and
having different curriculumsacross across those strands.
Leroy Gaines (40:15):
No, there's, you know it's.
It's funny.
I was serious.
I got really deep in thethought around the the, the
bilingual program, particularlyat Acorn-Winland, in the early
transition, and you know it'sfunny.
So when I was principal therethis is years ago they were like
you need to get rid of thisprogram.
It doesn't work.
There's no science, there'slike there's no research that
says it works.
And then I was showing the data.
I I mean it wasn't that I wasadvocating necessarily for that
(40:42):
particular form of and what anearly transition program is.
For folks who might not know,this is a traditional sort of
dual language program is veryadditive.
It's saying, okay, we're goingto teach you in your home
language, but we're also goingto teach you English or whatever
the other thing is, and we'regoing to do both, so you're
building on both languages.
And then there was this otherprogram which we were doing
(41:03):
which was, I mean, it's notadditive, it's actually saying
we're transitioning to Englishbecause we need you to get
English and we're going to teachyou in your language, but it's
not to build your language, it'sactually get you to come into
the English class and be able to, you know, perform at grade
level in English.
So we had this program thatwould end at third grade and the
(41:29):
way that we and this is whatyou know if, listening to this,
I was like, oh, we were actuallyintentional about this is the
curriculum that we use what wedid in the Spanish track was we
were saying we actually need toteach you guys, we need to
accelerate you in Spanish.
Spanish track was we weresaying we actually need to teach
you guys, we need to accelerateyou in Spanish and we need you
to learn the standards at leasta half a year ahead of where you
should be in grade level.
So if your third grade inEnglish is at third grade,
that's the benchmark End ofthird grade.
(41:51):
We're in the bilingual program.
You guys need to be atmid-fourth grade.
And the reason we did that wasbecause we were like, when you
get to fourth grade, we need youto have already had experience
in your home language of thecontent, the grade level
standards, and have mastery ofthat, so that when you
transition to English, youalready have the conceptual
understanding or the conceptsyou understand.
(42:12):
It's just the language you needto build.
So then we saw that transitionand we actually saw the students
in the Spanish strandoutperform our students in the
English strand because they, youknow.
So we were like, okay, this,this works, but it wasn't, you
know, like I said, it wasn'tadditive.
So that aspect of like,maintaining the culture was
always a challenge for us.
But anyway, I share thatbecause the intentionality and
(42:36):
the classroom and the buildingof this, the teachers, had to
understand this concept.
They had to understand that.
They were like we need to knowthe standards, we need to be
intentional about pushing ourkids as much and accelerating.
So when a student wasn'tperforming, we actually pushed
even harder.
So instead of like we're like,oh, you're falling behind, we're
like, okay, now we need toactually get you build the
(42:56):
scaffold here, but we need toget you to grade level and
beyond so that then we could dothat.
And you know, and it worked.
But it's a heavy lift forteachers and it's a heavy lift
for a school to manage that kindof complex All right.
Lori (43:08):
So with that I'm going to bring us to a close here.
I'd love to know what advicewould you give to teachers who
are doing this work, and you canthink about teachers in your
own district.
You're also talking to teachersall across the world on our
podcast, so open forinterpretation.
Tala Kauzer (43:25):
I think, trusting the process.
These things are chosen for areason and as a school, that was
a part of a lot of differentpilot programs, especially for
our foundational skills.
We tried program after programand then we've recently landed
on something that I am superexcited about and I think is
(43:46):
very, very strong.
We can't talk about it, butit's a very strong curriculum
and.
I think, just knowing there is amethod to the madness yes, it
might be a lot of work and areally heavy lift and a lot of
change and it might feelmaddening, but in the end there
is a reason and trusting thatprocess with it, and I think
(44:09):
also I mean you guys talk aboutthe F word, fidelity Like
teaching with fidelity andintegrity.
And like really attempting asbest you can to teach with
fidelity and integrity.
When you are adopting a newcurriculum and knowing, like I
was talking to one of my coachesthis year and she had said
something to me about when youchange the question in the
(44:29):
curriculum, it's not because youknow your kids better.
You're not making it moreaccessible to them.
You're lowering the level ofrigor.
You need to teach it withfidelity.
You don't know your kids better.
You're lowering the rigor ofrigor.
You need to teach it withfidelity.
You don't know your kids better.
You're lowering the rigor.
And like really holding on tothat and keeping that in mind as
we are working with teachersthrough this dense heady
curriculum is trust the process,because in the end, like, yes,
(44:50):
of course there's going to bethe initial dip in scores with
the new adoption of curriculum,but eventually we do see a lot
of growth.
Leroy Gaines (45:04):
That's a good point.
Yeah, I like this is.
There's folks in East Coastlistening to this, so I guess my
it's beautiful.
Here in Oakland it's like 65,almost 70 degrees.
Tala Kauzer (45:18):
It's wild.
Leroy Gaines (45:19):
We have hella positions open, so if you're
listening, to.
Lori (45:25):
We'll help you get credential, I'll give you my
credential, you get to work withyou both right, directly with
you both.
Leroy Gaines (45:33):
This is like so come first.
That's my first message, andthen no, you know what's?
I've always felt that, um, like, as like me myself, I'm always
been very content agnostic, andI say that because I think the
curriculums they're publisherseven the best of them they're
(45:54):
publishers, and they're justtrying to sell some stuff to you
, right, they're like this, likethis is a big business, like I
think, yeah, like this is a bigbusiness.
So I think I'm always like,yeah, it's just, and it's a tool
to get to the standard.
And I think, if you're a teacher, what's in your best interest,
the best interest of the kids infront of you, is like to really
master your standards, likeknow your standard in and out,
(46:18):
know what it looks like in realtime, and that's actually going
to make whatever curriculum youhave come alive.
You'll be able to fill the gaps,because even the best
curriculum and I love thecurriculum that we currently
have it has gaps.
Like you have to understand,you have to take it apart, and
once you're able to do that, Ithink that's the science, right,
that's like the science of thework is to be able to do that.
(46:46):
Then you get to do the art partof teaching, right, and then
you get to paint with yourstroke and design, but you have
to, you have to sort of, youhave to do the heavy lift of
really mastering your owncontent standards and getting
there where you're, where you'reknowing that and able to adjust
and fill those gaps, not tochange the questions, but to be
able to determine like is this,to be able to be critical
consumer and be like actually itsays this here, but is that
(47:06):
actually the rigor that thestandard is saying?
Tala Kauzer (47:09):
And I think also with that, with the standards
point, knowing the verticalalignment as well, know what
came before you and know what'scoming after you, so that you
know why you are teaching thestandards that you are teaching.
And you know what they can'twrite, what they're already
coming in with and what theyneed to get to.
Leroy Gaines (47:24):
And if you don't understand the vertical
alignment of your standards,you're still going to teach to
the standards but it's not goingto be as impactful yeah, can I
have one more thing and this isalong the standards, but I think
there is um that we've beentalking about the science of
reading as a nation.
I mean there's articles andthis conference you're probably
going to have multiple sessionsjust around science of reading
(47:46):
and I think we've been doingthis work right.
The core book has been outthere and people you can look at
different, there's differenttools to be able to understand
it.
But really getting into whatdoes it actually mean?
The science of reading, whatare those components and how
does that work?
And not being afraid, it's a lotof work to impact it because
(48:07):
there's a lot of assessing.
You're constantly checking tosee are kids moving?
Did you master this?
Do you know your digraphs?
Do you know your blend?
How do you move kids through?
And I think assessing is notbeing a strong, getting really
strong with your assessments andyour diagnostics and understand
having some assessment.
Literacy actually isn't a badthing.
(48:27):
It shouldn't be a bad word inour profession, because that's
going to reinforce your abilityto enact what we're calling the
science of reading and be veryintentional around that, the
early literacy piece, becauseyou have to have those.
We can't do the work in eled orany of these curriculums,
unless our kids are able to read, and you have to build that.
(48:48):
That foundation has to bereally strong.
So, um, so those two thingsunderstand standards, understand
scarborough's rope and theshufflebind framework and do the
work of that and I think you'regoing to be good.
Every we will hire you here.
Tala Kauzer (48:59):
We'll hire you.
This is a recruitment fair.
It's a recruitment fair.
I was like I've got a littleplatform, we're going to go.
Lori (49:07):
We didn't know that was happening.
You can't miss an opportunityfor that, right?
Yeah, no, well, thank you bothso much.
This is so fun, and thank youfor being here for our very
first live podcast.
Thank you all for being here,thank you.
Good job, good job yeah.
Melissa (49:30):
To stay connected with us, sign up for our email list
at literacypodcastcom, join ourFacebook group and follow us on
Instagram and Twitter.
Lori (49:40):
If this episode resonated with you, take a moment to share
with a teacher friend or leaveus a five-star rating and review
on Apple Podcasts.
Melissa (49:50):
Just a quick reminder that the views and opinions
expressed by the hosts andguests of the Melissa and Lori
Love Literacy Podcast are notnecessarily the opinions of
Great Minds PBC or its employees, we appreciate you so much and
we're so glad you're here tolearn with us.
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