Making Sentences Make Sense with Nancy Hennessy and Julia Salamone

Episode Transcript
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Lori (00:00):
Even if students can read the words, the meaning can still
get lost.
That's especially true as textsget harder.
A big reason is that studentsstruggle with how sentences are
put together.

Melissa (00:12):
In this episode, we talk to the authors of the
Reading Comprehension Blueprintactivity book, Nancy Hennessy
and Julia Salomon.
We'll explore sentencecomprehension, why it matters,
and how to teach it.

Lori (00:25):
You'll walk away with practical ways to help your
students make meaning at thesentence level.
Hi, teacher friends.
I'm Lori and I'm Melissa.
We are two educators who wantthe best for all kids, and we
know you do too.

Melissa (00:41):
We worked together in Baltimore when the district
adopted a new literacycurriculum.

Lori (00:46):
We realized there was so much more to learn about how to
teach reading and writing.

Melissa (00:52):
Lori and I can't wait to keep learning with you today.

Lori (00:57):
Hi, Nancy and Julia.
Welcome back to the podcast.
You were last on to talk aboutthe Reading Comprehension
Blueprint Activity Book.
You co-authored together, whichwe love the book.
We loved that episode with you.
But today we're digging into atopic that often kind of flies
under the radar, but has areally big impact on

(01:18):
comprehension, which is syntaxand sentence level
understanding.
So welcome back to the podcast,you two.

Nancy Hennessy (01:25):
Thanks so much.
We are thrilled to be here withboth of you.
The work that you're doing isabsolutely incredible.
So we are fangirls as well.
Um, and I know you must havesome fanboys out there um
listening to you.
So thanks for everything thatyou're doing, in addition to
your work in schools.
Um, I love talking about thistopic.

(01:46):
Uh, I've been talking about itfor a long time, and it seems as
if people are beginning to payattention to syntax and sentence
comprehension.
I think you're well aware ofthe recent issue of
perspectives, actually, twoissues that deal with the
perspectives, uh, that KellyPowell Smith and that Julie Van
Dyke are the editors.

(02:06):
And Julie Van Dyke has done avery nice job in terms of the
research world calling attentionnow to syntax.
So anyway, thanks for giving usthis opportunity.
Yeah.

Julia Salamone (02:19):
I'm really excited to be back again.
I think this is something thatNancy and I really share is this
love of um how do we teachsentence comprehension?
I think for me in particular,uh working with kids in high
school, you know, as these uhacademic texts and the sentence
complexity increases, right?
That can be where thosebreakdowns happen.

(02:42):
Um, so I think that, you know,Nancy and I really enjoy talking
about this topic and coming upwith really great ways for uh
teachers to tap into helpingstudents navigate, you know, the
more complex and sophisticatedstructures that they'll they'll
read as they progress throughthe grades.

Melissa (03:00):
Absolutely.
So we wanted to start with thisword syntax because we've said
it already a few times.
And Lori and I were actuallyjust joking the other day when
we were preparing for thepodcast that when we hear the
word syntax, our brains kind ofshut down just because it sounds
so technical.
But really, it's not thatcomplicated, right?
So it's, you know, sometimes wecall it the architecture of a
sentence or the structure of asentence, but can you just break

(03:23):
it down for everybody so thatthey don't have that feeling
that we have sometimes of like,oh, I don't want to hear about
syntax, it's too hard.

Yeah.
Okay.
Well, I'll try to do that.
Um, uh syntax is really allabout language.
It's a unit of language, andit's the unit of language that
gives us the rules that governhow we write sentences.
So, yes, it's the architecture,it's the framework.
It tells us where the wordsbelong within the sentence.

(03:50):
All right.
So when we're little and we'relistening to oral language,
hopefully we develop thisawareness of uh syntax that
allows us to place those wordsin the correct position as we
speak.
And um sometimes people thinkof syntax as synonymous with
grammar.
I I just want to say that it'sa component of grammar and that

(04:13):
it's a link, it's a way ofthinking about grammar from a
linguistic or languageperspective.
And I think that's reallyimportant.
Um so if you have syntacticawareness, if you have an
understanding of how westructure our language, and by
the way, this can be differentin different languages, all
right.
So that's important to note,particularly as we work with our

(04:35):
students who are multilanguagelearners, all right.
Um, we know what the order is.
Um, you know, as teachers, werecognize the terms subject and
predicate.
The predicate follows thesubject.
But I really want to talk, andso does Julia, we really want to
talk about this from theperspective of meaning.
And so having this awareness ofthis structure, of this order,

(04:57):
the internal structure of asentence, a way of organizing up
words, um, really allows us toinfer who or what did what,
when, where, how, and why.
It's a key really to not onlythe writing of sentences, but
certainly the understanding ofsentences.
So I hope that's helpful interms of understanding syntax.

Melissa (05:21):
Yeah, and I love what you just said because I I
similar that I always feel likewhen I learned some of the
subject and predicate and all ofthat, it felt so removed and it
felt so separate.
And like maybe we were doing itso we knew how to write a good
sentence, you know, so we hadthe parts of the sentence when
we were writing.
But I loved what you just saidabout connecting it to the

(05:42):
meaning because, you know, ifstudents can understand the
different parts of a sentence asthey get more complex, it will
help them understand the meaningof those sentences.
Am I right?
That's absolutely right.

So, you know, words carry meaning, but they
only carry meaning insofar asthe position that they're placed
in within a sentence.
So if you're aware of how wordswork within a sentence, if you
listen to the sentence, uh, thelight burned brightly, or if you
have syntactic awareness andknowledge, which allows for you
to understand and then writesentences, um, then you

(06:18):
understand that in thatsentence, the light is answering
the question, what?
What's happening?
What is that sentence about?
Versus if you are listening toa sentence like, I will light
the fire at dusk.
Now you understand because ofthe position, because of the
order of the words within thesentence, that light isn't about

(06:38):
the what.
It's about it's not about thewho or the what, it's about the
do.
It's what's happening.
I'm doing something now.
And I think, you know, that'snot something we consciously
think about because we have thisawareness and we have this
knowledge.
But for many students, theyreally need to be explicitly
taught how these words work incombination with one another to

(07:00):
convey ideas.

Melissa (07:01):
And I never even thought about it like that with
vocabulary.
Again, we sometimes treat thatseparately, right?
Vocabulary, but just becauseyou know the word light and what
it means, you really have tolook at how it's being used in
that sentence to know which kindof light are we talking about
here.

Well, I love that you just brought that up
because oftentimes when we thinkabout these contributors to
comprehension, we're thinkingabout them as being separate
entities, like teaching avocabulary.
There's a reason why in avocabulary routine, you want to
ask students about the part ofspeech, not so much that they
can now name it as a noun orverb, that's nice, but that they

(07:40):
understand that it's going toconvey meaning in different ways
when it's placed within thesentence.
So we talk about semantics andsyntax, reading rope stuff,
right?
Sometimes people think, well,why is that together?
Well, it's together because ofthis.
Uh, semantics and syntaxworking in constant with one
another so that one canunderstand meaning at the word

(08:00):
and then at the sentence level.

Lori (08:03):
The way that you're describing it, I feel like
Melissa said a moment ago, itinstead of being disconnected,
it's very interconnected.
And it's this idea of um notjust identifying apart, right?
Not just saying the who or thedo, but really thinking about
those other higher orderthinking skills.
Like we're asking students tosynthesize and analyze, and

(08:25):
we're really bringing somedeeper meaning into it through
those requests.
So I didn't know if you wantedto react to that or say anything
more.

Well, I think I think that that's exactly so.
So when we build meaning, youknow, and I'm very uh fond of uh
referencing uh uh Kate Kane andJane Oakill's work here in
terms of levels of languageprocessing that we go to to get
to a mental model.
All right.
So thinking about you need tocertainly be able to either read
or listen to the words,dependent upon where the

(08:55):
students are at.
But you have to access thatmeaning, but not in and by
itself is that sufficient.
You then have to work out thesyntactic sense of the sentence.
You have to integrate themeanings within and between
those sentences.
You see, you're successivelybuilding meaning, all right, and
then you're integrating yourbackground knowledge.
So you arrive at what?

(09:15):
An overall understanding of thetext, a mental model.
So this all needs to beintegrated.
And it's all, you know, if onecomponent is missing, then
comprehension is compromised.

Lori (09:28):
Yeah, such a good point.
Okay, so you know, we'retalking about these different
parts.
Um, you know, and if one'smissing, it could be
compromised.
Nancy, can you tell us theessential parts of a sentence?
Uh, you know, we know studentsneed to know all of these parts
to make sense of it.
So I I think you refer to theseas building blocks in your
article.

So, first of all, syntax and and sentences
are kind of they they're engagedin a symbiotic relationship,
right?
And so when you begin to thinkabout um, how do we build
meaning within the sentence?
Uh, Louisa Motz, a number ofyears ago in one of the editions
of Letters, described asentence as a linguistic frame

(10:07):
into which we have slots orcategories of words.
Well, those categories of wordsare the parts of speech, the
phrases, the clauses.
These are the building blocksthat we combine into meaning
into different types ofsentences.
And one by one, what happens?
The sentences add up to thegist of the text.
All right.
So very important to bethinking about these building

(10:29):
blocks and what meaning each ofthese building blocks can
convey.
Because uh, in the words ofStanley Fish, he wrote a very
interesting article about thefate of the sentence.
He said, uh, we have uh wordsthat are ordained into different
slots, and I love thinkingabout that.
So we have nouns that do what,they answer who or what, so do
noun phrases, all right.

(10:50):
We have verbs that answer, youknow, the do, what's happening,
all right, so do verb phrases.
We have adjectives that answerwhich one, what kind, how many,
and so on.
So, you know, I could go on interms of describing each of
those building blocks, butwhat's important to think about
is that each of them has a jobto do.
And while traditionally ingrammar, if anyone's had grammar

(11:14):
or taught grammar in the past,we we would teach the definition
and the labels, all right.
These are actually syntacticforms when we talk about parts
of speech and so on.
We teach the labels and thedescriptions, but we didn't
teach what their function was.
And here we're talking aboutknow what the building blocks
are, know what their functionis, know what the questions are

(11:35):
that each of those buildingblocks will answer in order to
build up to different types ofsentences, and then understand
that there are different typesof sentences and they convey
different types ofrelationships, simple, compound,
complex.
It's wonderful to use thosewords, but what exactly does
that mean in terms of meaning?

(11:55):
So, yeah, building blocks.
Um, and I think one of thethings Julia and I have tried
very hard to do is, and she'sgoing to talk about sentence
activities and so on, but alsoto include activities with these
parts of speeches, thesephrases, these clauses, so that
students see how we buildmeaning, how we integrate, how
we express idea units withintext.

Lori (12:18):
That's so helpful.
You're making me think of uhthe old uh, what was it, the
schoolhouse rock conjunction,junction?
What's the function?

Right.
And and you know, really,really kind of digging into that
so that it isn't, oh, the nounis the name of a person, place,
or thing, or it's the subject ofthe sentence.
I'm not going to discredit thator say that's not important,
but from the point of view ofmeaning, of understanding as
you're reading, and then beingable to express your own meaning
in sentences, you have tounderstand what question are

(12:50):
those things going to answer sothat you have a sentence that
actually, you know, um is acomplete thought.
So yeah.

Lori (12:59):
Yeah.
Julia, I didn't know if youwanted to add to that, just you
know, why it's so important tounderstand at the sentence level
and beyond.

Yeah, I just think that, you know, Nancy's
hitting on all of these thingsthat, you know, are so
important.
I I've been getting sort ofthose flashbacks of my own
middle school experience.
I had this like really thickgrammar textbook, and I remember
coding and and going throughthe exercises, but it was always
so disconnected.
I think the point uh we'remaking about this idea of first

(13:30):
of all, things being integrated,right?
It was always isolated.
It didn't mean meaningfullyconnect to what I was reading or
what I was doing and learningabout in my classes.
Um, so I have, you know, I Iwas taught in that traditional
sort of grammar workbookapproach.
However, you know, in our worktogether, really thinking about

(13:51):
this idea of prioritizingfunction, right, over just the
form.
And, you know, I agree withNancy.
That's not to say, like, I'mnever gonna say a noun is a
person, place, or thing.
I think there are some reallygreat um, you know, programs
that kind of look at thelabeling piece, like framing
your thoughts.
I think that can be a great wayfor coding and think thinking
about a sentence parts for kids.

(14:13):
But I think we need to reallybegin by focusing on the
function, because that's gonnatap into the comprehension
piece.
It's gonna help them later withtheir writing and so forth.

Yeah, we often talk about that as being
prerequisite knowledge that theyhave an understanding of.
And when we work with teachers,that's one of the first thing
we first things we do is getthem thinking about what
questions do these words answer,you know, these parts of
speech.
What do I think many times whenpeople think about phrases, for
instance, they don't thinkabout phrases answer questions,

(14:46):
just like noun phrases, youknow, prepositional phrases,
adjectival phrases, and so on.
Um, as do clauses, but in asomewhat different way that gets
a little bit more complicated.

Melissa (14:57):
Yeah, Julia, I was thinking the same thing that you
were with my going back to myuh my own time in school and
filling out those worksheets.
And it was always that, right?
You just learned like this is averb, and then you have a
worksheet that's okay, find allthe verbs, circle all the verbs,
underline the nouns, you know,and we we know that that's
that's not really helping forthis, you know, understanding

(15:19):
that we want for like if we'retrying to understand a complex
sentence, that's not the way togo about it.
And I I find that like it mademe not really want to teach
grammar.
And I think that for a lot ofteachers, it probably you know
makes them not want to teachgrammar either.
But Julia, you're in theclassroom, right?

Yeah, I I am.
I work with students regularly.

Melissa (15:40):
Yeah, so we we want to hear from you.
Do you have any like tips forsome?
I know you're talking aboutlike making it more meaningful,
but like let's get let's get alittle more concrete even.
Like, do you have some likefun, engaging ways to teach
these building blocks of asentence that really helps it
stick and connect it tocomprehension and meaning?

Yeah, I think for me, I think that the
starting point is that, youknow, grounding things in the
context of what kids arelearning about in school, right?
One of the, I think one of theeasiest ways to sort of tap into
this is putting this type of umthinking and instruction into
in-class read alouds, or, youknow, using student writing to

(16:23):
foster discussions about, youknow, we're looking at a
specific part of speech, right?
Um, I think that this reallyhelps it uh remain from being in
isolation.
So kind of that like drillingkill worksheet approach.
Um, I love pulling authenticexamples from the text that
we're working on.
I like to talk about howauthors use a particular type of

(16:47):
word or a sentence, right?
I think that is one way toreally tap into, you know, how
did that make the work moreimpactful?
Um, and I think there's just avariety, you know, we're living
in the age of like this amazingaccess to children's literature.
So finding books that are superkid friendly.
Um, so for example, I'm a bigKevin Hankeys fan, like Lily's

(17:08):
Plastic Purple Purse, such alovely way to teach adjectives,
right?
So making like picking storiesthat kids are gonna be, you
know, interested in and and andlove.
They're, you know, great books.
Um, I also think, I think usingvisuals to reinforce this idea
that these parts of speech,phrases, clauses, they have a

(17:29):
function, right?
Um, so I think that this can bebrought in once kids are able
to understand the parts ofspeech and and can recognize
them in text, right?
So we've we develop thatprerequisite knowledge.
Um, and I believe starting withsomething that's familiar to
students.
So starting with images thatthey, you know, would connect to

(17:49):
from everyday experiences.
So, you know, you could pickthings that maybe are connected
to animals or sports or coolcurrents school happenings.
Um, I work in an all-boysschool, so I have a lot of
sports enthusiasts, right?
So using images from, you know,what's happening to start this
conversation.
So I might take a picture likethe little league the playoffs,

(18:12):
right?
Of a little leaguer slidinginto home base and then really
prompt students with thosequestions to get them thinking
about the different parts ofspeech and their function,
right?
So who is in this image?
Well, you know, the thebaseball, the little league or
the baseball player.
Um, what's he doing?
Sliding, sliding into homebase, right?
Um, where is this happening inthe summer, right?

(18:35):
And so we're again, we'retapping into the function of
these various uh pieces of asentence.
I think once they've masteredthis with some topics that
they're familiar with, then youcan begin to bring in class
content.
So I teach uh high school kids,use a lot of um primary sources

(18:55):
in in history.
So, like using things likepolitical cartoons or
photographs from the time periodto do this type of thinking, to
begin to think about, allright, well, what's the what's
the who or the what?
What is that, what is thesubject of this image?
Um, and I think that can bejust a nice um approach because
not only are we tapping intothat idea of function over form

(19:17):
and we're thinking about the therole of these uh words in a
sentence, but we're also reallythinking about like deepening a
student's understanding of thatcourse material, right?
So like they're they'rethinking about making
connections by closely umreading, right, a primary
source, an image, a document.
So I really do think that itcan be just like a lovely way to

(19:40):
kind of incorporate thatlanguage work into a variety of
different, you know, subjects.
You could do that in history,you could do it in science.
There's lots of opportunitiesto build that kind of work in.

Yeah, if I just might add, many of the things
that Julia just described arewithin the instructional
framework that we've provided,within the tools and tips, which
is a resource for um thisparticular podcast.
And the instructional frameworkthat we have is broken down
into different types ofactivities, all right, for

(20:13):
building blocks for the buildingblocks for sentences and then
for the integration of sentenceswith a focus on cohesive ties.
So um that's a great referencefor people as well.

Melissa (20:25):
For sure.
And we'll link that in the shownotes.
So if you're wondering whatNancy's referring to, um, we
have it for you and you can findit there.
And I just wanted to comment onI hadn't even thought about
doing this work with a visualfirst, but just taking out the
you know complexity of, youknow, even the fear of looking
at a sentence, you know, it'sjust like, oh, it's a really
safe space.

(20:46):
And then getting thosequestions is like kind of part
of their thinking routine andjust like, oh, who is this and
where where is it happening andwhat are they doing?
And just asking thosequestions.
That's such a lovely way to getit in.
And I'm sure, especially formultilingual learners, that's a
really nice um first place togo.

Lori (21:04):
Yeah, and you can even do that with content too, right,
Julia?
I mean, it doesn't have youknow, I mean, it could be
dislike if you're just trying toget some engagement around some
current event that's happening,awesome.
And you can do it with, youknow, I'm picturing second grade
students learning about therainforest.
There could be a greatphotograph of the rainforest
that then they're reacting to inthe spirit of, and like you

(21:26):
mentioned earlier, Nancy andMelissa, like the vocabulary
that they learned about therainforest too.
They could be integrating that.
Julia, I cut you off.
Go ahead.

No, I was just gonna say, I just think it's a
really powerful, like usingvisuals is a really powerful
way.
I have, I have a fine artsbackground.
So like I've always beenattracted to visuals, but it's
just a great way to scaffold andand bring kids into this
conversation around, all right,well, what are you seeing?
What is this picture about?
And I think it's what's lovelyabout it is that you can use it

(21:56):
across, like you said, acrossdifferent subjects or different
topics.
Um, and then as kids are, youknow, coming along with that
generation, like and they've gotthose ideas, then we can start
to talk about, well, how couldwe craft a sentence using these
ideas that you've, you know,shared?
So I think that it's it's areally kind of simple strategy,

(22:16):
but also very, I think,effective and gives you a lot of
bang for your back.

Lori (22:21):
What about the role of knowledge here?
We're talking about stuff thatstudents are learning about.
So, you know, for example, afamiliar topic that they're
learning about in science classor history class.
Does the role, what what is therole of knowledge play here in
understanding sentence syntax?

Well, I think as we think back on how we build
knowledge, how we arrive at, youknow, the ultimate goal of
comprehension, which isknowledge, all right, we begin
with word meaning and thensentence uh meaning,
comprehension, and continue tobuild with the integration of
background knowledge and thenthe mental model.
So having some knowledge of,but a sentence, a key sentence,

(23:02):
all right, can often be astrategy that we can use to
begin the building of thatknowledge necessary even to
understand the text that they'reabout to read.
So um, you know, this this isall interconnected.
We just don't get to that endgoal without working through um
the idea units, the integrationof idea units, the integration

(23:23):
then of background knowledge,and then the creation of this
mental model.
I don't know, Julia, do youhave some other thoughts on
this?

I was just gonna think a little bit of that um
the Hatton and Lupo article,Nancy, and how we've been
thinking a little bit about themany different types of
knowledge.
Um, so this idea that, yes, um,we want our kids to have the
background knowledge, which isgonna help them unpack those
academic texts that they'rereading and those topic
specific, but like we also wantto consider things like

(23:52):
linguistic knowledge, right?
What do they come to um ourclassrooms with and what do they
need to build upon?
And I think what's been reallycool in that work that Nancy and
I have been thinking about,it's like there's a lot of
different types of knowledgethat kids are tapping into in
school.
And I think one of the thingsthat, you know, Nancy and I have
really been thinking about islike, how do we as educators

(24:15):
have that awareness?
So that, you know, it's it'syes, background knowledge, and
like if you're learning about umthe Civil War, for example, and
reconstruction, having that isimportant.
But then there's differenttypes of knowledge.
Like if I'm reading a primarysource and like the linguistic
structures are very different,right?
Um, I'm gonna be tapping intodifferent types of knowledge as

(24:35):
I'm I'm going through that text.

Yeah, I'm so glad that you brought that up,
Julia, because language is atthe heart of this.
But we also have to be thinkingabout not only the language,
skills, and capabilities, butthose different sources of
knowledge.
And uh we have been talkingabout what goes into
comprehension, includingstrategic knowledge and
conditional knowledge andlinguistic knowledge and so on.
So it all fits together.

(24:59):
There's no doubt thatcomprehension is extremely
complex and it's complex for usas educators.
There's no doubt about that.

Lori (25:08):
Thank you for this little sidebar from the main
conversation.
I think it's so important tomake sure that we're talking
about all of this in concertwith uh, you know, the focus of
this conversation, which is thesentence.
So I appreciate that uh littlesidebar conversation.
Um, I do want to go back to thearticle that we're talking
about, though, because you namecommon challenges that make

(25:29):
sentences kind of tricky tounderstand.
I love what you call them.
I love that you call themtroublemakers.
Um, because it they'retroublemakers for everyone.
You know, I know when I readthings, I still have
troublemakers.
Um, so I I want to I would lovefor you all to walk us through
these and just tell us a littlebit about them.

Yeah.
Well, I think I first becameaware of them when I was
introduced to Cheryl Scott'swork, and that was quite a while
ago.
And then she continued to dowork with Catherine Balthazar.
So you see both of them, andthen Richard Zippoli noted in
our work.
They're all speech and languagepathologists.
Big surprise.
All right.
Um, I hadn't really thoughtabout it.

(26:09):
But if you step back and youbegin to think about these
differences between our orallanguage, the way we speak every
day, our everyday language, andthe language that we find in
books, it's quite different.
All right.
Uh Mary Ellen McDonald just dida very nice article on book
language, just calling attentionto the fact that from the time
little ones begin to listen toread alouds, they're

(26:31):
encountering really complexsentences.
And they're complex for amultiple uh multiple reasons, as
indicated by these researchersthat I just named.
So the sentences can beextremely long, so length.
They can be extremely dense,multiple idea units, not just
one idea expressed in asentence.

(26:52):
They can be very difficultbecause the who is separated
from the do, right?
Because there's phrases orclauses that are descriptive and
important to the sentence, makethe sentence um, make the
sentences richer, but also youhave a little difficulty kind of
digging through the sentences.
They can be difficult becauseof passive voice.
So the importance of building,you know, from the beginning,

(27:16):
this understanding of thebuilding blocks, working with
simpler sentences.
And oftentimes, you know, um,not oftentimes, we're beginning
with decodable text and we'reusing decodable text as the
foundation.
They're really a springboard.
Um, and Nancy Eberhart andMargie Gillis do a beautiful job
in talking about syntax withinthe context of decodable text.

(27:37):
But what we really are focusedon are academic language text,
book language, the texts that wefind in school.
And the words are more complex,the sentences are more complex,
right?
The ideas are more complex.
And so teaching students how toparse, how to work through
those sentences is absolutelycritical.

(27:57):
Just listen to one or twoexamples.
This is chrysanthemum, andJulia has used this example when
we talk about uh complexity.
So this is a read-aloud for themost part, kindergarten, first
grade.
And she loved the way itsounded when she whispered it to
herself in the bathroom mirror.
Think about all of thedifferent phrases that, you

(28:19):
know, it begins with a clause,all the different phrases that
one is hearing, even the use ofthe word she threw out and the
use of the word it through out.
Who's she?
All right, who is it?
All right, well, she ischrysanthemum.
It is hearing her name, allright.
Um, and then you can go all theway to more complex sentences,
such as the ones Julia was justreferencing in a high school

(28:40):
setting.
And this actually comes from aninth grade science curriculum.
Julia and I have been doingmore and more work connected
directly to curricula becauseour framework, our comprehension
blueprint is curriculumagnostic.
And so we've been looking moreand more how do we take this
information, for instance, onsentences and bring it and
listen and see if you can countthe number of words and in this

(29:04):
sentence.
Coral reefs, which are actuallycolonies of individual animals
called pollups, have experiencedextensive bleaching as the
oceans warm.
When overheated, they expel thecolorful symbiotic algae that
lives within them.

Lori (29:20):
30 words, all right.
And that what grade level highschool you said?

That's ninth grade science.
Oh my gosh, ninth gradescience.
Ninth grade science, yeah.
Wow.
So just thinking about thefact, and and we're all about
using the text.
You use the text as the base,you teach from the text, all
right.
Um we're all about using thetext and identifying for
students what's going to becomplex and working with them in

(29:47):
terms of parsing their waythrough the sentence.
They can't even read thatsentence fluency if uh fluently
if they don't have, you know,the syntactic awareness and
knowledge to even get a senseof, you know.
What are the different ideaunits?
Because we could count up ideaunits in the sentence as well,
which are often linked to verbs,the how many verbs you have.

(30:08):
Incredible, right?
So I I um have referencedrecently um a quote from Stephen
Stahl, who's no longer with us,but I think I think he really
hits the nail on the head.
The ability to parsegrammatical structures, and
that's what this is about, allright?
To identify the word's place inthe structure coupled with

(30:30):
integrating the meaning of thewords and phrases is necessary
to understanding the sentence.
If you can't work your way andrecognize and be taught
explicitly about thetroublemakers, all right, and in
a sequential way, all right, ina way that builds cumulatively,
how are you going to deal witha sentence like that in ninth
grade?

Lori (30:51):
Right.
Because I imagine a typicalninth grader would probably get
as far as the term uh symbiotic,to be honest.
That was the point in thesentence where I was like, I
don't know, I need to see this,you know.
Right.
And then they'd probably justbe like, I'll just ask my
teacher, right?
I mean, that's realistically,we need to we want to teach them

(31:12):
to like have the vigor toattack that sentence with these
tools that we're teaching them.

Yeah.
So pulling those sentences out,using them even as a warm-up,
all right, for a lesson.
Um, and and modeling,consistently modeling and
thinking aloud and talkingabout, you know, how do you work
your way through a sentencelike that?
Where's the who and the do?
All right, in that sentence.
And it that has to begin veryearly on.

Melissa (31:40):
Yeah, and I was so glad that you brought that up about
the early on.
My son actually just readChrysanthemum in his class the
other day.
Um, but it's true, even whenI'm doing, you know, just
reading with him um, you know,before bed, so many times, like
you think, oh, this is just ashort little book, or you know,
you look at the topic of it andyou're like, oh, this is just a
fun book that we're reading, youknow, together.

(32:01):
And then I'm getting into itand I'm like, do you want me to
read that sentence again?
Because I'm Alex, like, Iactually I need to read the
sentence again to make sense ofit.
So I know he needs to.
Um That's exactly right.
But it's true, like even at theyoungest ages, like starting
there, you know, it thosesentences can be pretty, pretty
complex.
So I think that's really smartto not just, you know, say, oh,

(32:23):
this is for older kids, but itreally starts young.

Well, this is this is why we talk about using
text early on.
So when we think about theupper and the lowest strands of
the rope, while we're veryfocused on word recognition,
we're also all about you beginlanguage comprehension.
Well, certainly, hopefullybefore they even come to school,
the development of rurallanguage, but you begin with
read alouds early on, along withthose decodable texts so that

(32:47):
they get the word recognitionaspect.
Yeah, they need that languagedevelopment.

Yeah, and I think authors like Kevin
Hankeys, who's my one of myfavorites, right?
Um, use such a beautiful, richlanguage.
Um, I remember likekindergarten, my little my
little one just read it as well.
And it's these beautifulsentences, but yeah, I sometimes
have to stop and reread.
And so, how are we modelingthat for kids?
How are we thinking like aboutthe the questions that we might

(33:14):
ask ourselves?
And I think Nancy is completelycorrect.
This idea of you as theteacher, the expert, really
showing kids and making thattransparent.

Melissa (33:22):
Yeah.
So, Julia, we're coming back toyou again for this.
So we want to hear some ofthese more concrete strategies.
And you're gonna talk usthrough three sets of
high-impact instructional movesthat can really help students
tackle these complex sentences.
So these might actually evenhelp me when I'm reading to my
son, instead of just asking toreread it again.
I can have more strategies inmy pocket.

(33:43):
So, first, can you walk usthrough questioning and parsing
and how this there's a sentencestructured sentence organizer?
So, can you tell us how thatfits in with the questioning and
parsing?

Yes, definitely.
Um, so we know that questioningis a really powerful tool uh to
support students' readingcomprehension.
Uh, I think that you can use umsimple questioning, right, to
reinforce students'understanding of the role of
that part of speech in asentence, right?
Tapping into form, not justsolely focusing on function.

(34:19):
And I think questioning can bevery powerful as a standalone
strategy, right?
But what Nancy and I reallylike to think about is how do we
combine that with otherstrategies to be even more
impactful?
And I think so combiningquestioning and parsing together
or breaking a sentence apartinto its components, that can
really help students understandthe function of the words, the

(34:42):
phrases, uh, the clauses andthrough active sentence
deconstruction, right?
We're kind of breaking thatsentence down into its building
blocks.
Um, and I think we can thinkabout again, starting with our
little guys, starting with lesssophisticated structures and
then moving on to more complexones.
You know, Nancy mentioned this,you know, the idea of goal of

(35:03):
moving to kids onto a placewhere they're able to do that
kind of independent activitiesas maybe an exit ticket or maybe
a warm-up activity in class,right?
So a structured sentenceorganizer, it's a graphic
organizer, right, that reallysupports this process.
It features the question wordsof uh related to word functions

(35:24):
at the top of the document.
So it can include questionslike who or what, which is
tapping into nouns, is or wasdoing our verbs, uh, which one,
what kind, how many, ouradjectives, and then the where,
when, how, why, um adverbs,prepositional phrases, right?
So that's at the top.
And then students can really betaught to parse or or break

(35:47):
apart those sentences based onthe questions they answer.
So we'll go back to our ninthgraders, right?
That Nancy and I were thinkingabout.
Um, so that that coral reef,um, they're learning about
habitats and they're learningabout um conservation and and
sustainability.
And they they do, they learnabout the passenger pigeon,

(36:08):
which was a species that wasvery once very um plentiful and
then had a rapid extinction.
So I might give them thesentence, the once plentiful
species declined and disappearedfrom the wild, right?
Then I can use that organizer.
And I'm gonna, again, modelthis first.
I'm not just throwing my kidsin cold, but well, who or what

(36:28):
is that sentence about?
Well, it's about the species,right?
This, the passenger pigeonspecies.
And what were they doing?
Well, two things.
First of all, their theirspecies declined.
So that was the first thingthat that is the action here.
And then they disappeared.
So two things uh that thatconnect to what the action is.

(36:50):
And then we have, well, whichone, what kind?
Well, they were once plentiful.
And I think that's a reallyimportant um thing to tune into
as a reader because it's tellingme that, okay, well, they were
doing really, really great.
And then all of a sudden, notso much, right?
Um, so that's gonna tap intowhat the kids are learning about

(37:12):
in terms of the advent ofcommercial hunting and how that
impacted the species.
Uh, and then the like the thewhere, right?
Um, from the wild.
So they were, they disappearedfrom where?
From the wild.
And so I think again, we'rethinking about, you know, again,
breaking apart this sentenceinto something that answers

(37:34):
those various questions andthinks about each of the words
or phrases and what they do.
And I think it's reallyimportant to note that sometimes
the questions are going to beanswered than more than one
word, right?
So from the wild, we have thatphrase, that prepositional
phrase that answers the wherequestion.
Um, so answers can include asingle word, it might be one,

(37:56):
but it could also be a group ofwords functioning together.
So there's that level offlexibility, you know, um, when
we're thinking about language.
Um, so I think that's somethingthat's really important to
highlight and to talk about.

Lori (38:11):
I I love that.
I love that as a reallypractical quote, activity for
lack of better word.
Um, way.
If I'm a teacher listening, I'mthinking, okay, I might have my
students who are reading aboutthis topic further today come in
and question and parse thissentence, right?
They're going to deconstruct itas their entry work, either

(38:31):
honestly, either separately orwith a partner.
I think this could work reallywell.
As long as I've modeled itpreviously, I think that they
could do it as their entry work.
And then they're prepared tojump in to the content of
today's lesson and in less thanwhat, like three minutes or
less.

Yeah, I think it's such a great, like that,
that warm-up.
But, you know, again, we've hadexplicit instruction.
We've taught, we've talkedabout this, you know, we're
building, um, our kids have beenlearning about these, you know,
various structures moving fromsimple to complex.
But then it is, it's a greatway to just kind of get started
and jump into a classroomconversation uh about, you know,

(39:08):
the topic of the day.
So I think again, when we'rethinking about things that are
really like high impact, um,questioning and parsing is one
of those strategies that I thinkis very, very uh useful and and
is very beneficial in terms ofthat like high impact
utilization.

I think also you're making me think about the
fact that keying into thatcritical knowledge base is so
important.
And oftentimes what willhappen, as with vocabulary, when
we talk about vocabulary, wetalk about choosing words that
have to do with the big ideas orthe enduring understandings,
whatever it, the themes, thetopics that you're working with,
you can do the same with asentence.

(39:47):
You can choose the sentencethat begins to get you engaged
and involved in what you wantyour student walking away with
from that particular passage.
Yeah.

Melissa (39:57):
Yeah.
And I think it makes sense,Nancy, because the these
questions get them to themeaning.
That's what I was thinking.
I was like, what's thedifference between this and like
sentence diagramming, you know,where you're like, oh, here's
the prepositional phrase.
But you weren't thinking aboutthe meaning at all then.
You were just like finding thedifferent parts.
But this is still finding thedifferent parts, but in a way
that they're making sense of itas they're doing it.

(40:17):
So you want them to make senseof this to something that's
connected to something they'relearning.

Yeah.
And we sometimes get questionsabout do you not believe in
diagramming?
Well, you could usediagramming, but you have to tie
it to function.
It's not just about thelabeling.

Melissa (40:32):
All right.
Our second instructional move,that's actually two, is it's
sentence combining andexpansion.
So can you share some examplesof these?

Yes, definitely.
So I think sentence combiningand expansion are both powerful
instructional moves that cansupport reading comprehension
and writing.
So they're kind of doing doubleduty, which is really beautiful
and I love as a teacher.
Um, with sentence combining,students are given um two or
more kernel sentences.
And that can feature varied umdifferent syntactic patterns,

(41:05):
right?
But that should always be basedon a logical sequence that's
moving from simple to morecomplex.
Um, so for example, in theactivity book, we have a
sequence that starts withadjectives and adverbs and
combining based on sentencesthat include those.
And that's a great startingpoint.
And then moving on to moreadvanced work with like

(41:29):
combining adverbial or relativeclauses.
So we're kind of thinking aboutthat continuum of simple to
more advanced.
And I think for this activity,teachers provide focused
questions and kernel sentencesfrom text that students are
reading in class.
So let's go back to this ideaof the passenger pigeon since
it's near and dear to my heartand my brain right now.

(41:50):
But this idea of I might posethe question, how would you
describe the passenger pigeonprior to this introduction of
commercial hunting?
Right.
And my students might respond,well, it was a social bird of
great numbers, because theylearn about how they had this
like social community and theywere very abundant.

(42:12):
And they might say it was afast flying species.
So they're answering myquestion, but now I want to
think about combining thoseideas and focused on those
adjectives.
So we might work to combiningthose ideas to the passenger
pigeon was a social fast flyingspecies of great numbers.

(42:32):
And that's answering myquestion again.
It's answering, well, what werethey like?
How were they before thatintroduction of commercial
hunting?
Right.
Um, so uh I think thinkingabout it this way, it's a really
nice um activity for them tothen also kind of do an informal
um comprehension check, right?
So it serves to, they're notonly thinking about, you know,

(42:55):
kind of putting these ideastogether, but it's also showing,
like, okay, what do you, whatdid you remember from this class
content?
What, you know, in terms ofwhat we talked about and the
passenger pigeon and sort oftheir life before and after the
introduction of this uh, youknow, widespread hunting, right?

I love that she just made the connection between
reading and writing as well.
And this is one of the things Ithink we want to make certain
that we say today that weintegrate oral and written
activities throughout our workwith sentence comprehension,
that this is not a standalone.
We're not only about themeaning of the sentences, but
how do you go about showing usthat you're understanding what

(43:34):
you're reading, both oralactivity and the development of
as well, um, this capability andthen written activity.
And secondly, um, she justmentioned Julia, uh, Julia's
brilliant uh in terms of allthat she comes up with
instructionally.
This connection to assessment,there isn't a great deal out

(43:54):
there in terms of comprehensionassessment.
We keep searching.
There are some good thingscoming on the horizon, um, uh,
and there's a few things thatwe've had from the past.
But informal activities, theseactivities that we do with our
students can be the source of uhinformal assessment, knowing
whether or not they understandat the sentence level what

(44:14):
they're being um what what theyneed to have in order to make
meaning of the text.

Melissa (44:20):
I'm so glad you said that, Nancy.
I was thinking that a lot ofthe things we've been talking
about, I feel like people mayhave heard of before, but a lot
of times it's in the context ofwriting instruction.
And so to really think about itnot just in that bucket, but
for I mean, we're talking aboutit for reading comprehension.
That is the reason that umwe're we're talking to you two.
So it's really helpful to thinkabout it for both.

Yeah, I think the same thing applies to
sentence expansion, right?
So we can think about it inthat duality.
Not only is it when we'reexpanding sentences, we're, you
know, working on those writingskills and being more
descriptive in our writing, butit also can be a tapping into of
reading comprehension and whatstudents, what content they're
remembering from the readingsthat they're doing in class.

(45:06):
So sentence expansion, studentsare asked to elaborate on a
kernel sentence and they use thequestion words.
So what, when, where, how, whyto expand on that.
Um, when I think aboutdesigning spit sentence
expansion activities, teachersare really going to think about
what are the key ideas, the bigideas from the units and the

(45:27):
text that they're teaching.
Um, and then you can providethe question words to prompt
students to help them kind ofthink through that process.
Uh, and it can be, like Nancysaid, introduced as an oral
activity first and then movingon to written responses.
I think Dr.
Charlie Haynes, um, fabulousspeech language professor, um,

(45:49):
but um, his book from talking towriting, which I think is a
wonderful resource, but reallyconnects to that, this idea that
we can start with these actexercises as oral activities and
then move along to theninfusing that in in our writing,
right?
So we'll go back to thepassenger pigeon again.
And if I had my kernelsentence, right?

(46:10):
Passenger pigeons migrated,right?
The who and what they're doing.
I might ask my students to thenexpand upon that using um their
answers to various questions.
So I might say, well, where didthey migrate?
And they would, you know, wewould have talked about and
gleaned from the reading, well,across North America.

(46:30):
And when did they migrate?
Well, this happened in the 18thand 19th centuries, but this
was before they rapidly wentextinct, right?
And then why?
Well, their migration wasreally to help them not only
find food, but it was to helpthem find nesting grounds.
So I could combine these ideas,and again, there's explicit

(46:51):
instruction, teacher modelingfirst, but it might, they might
come up with something in the18th and 19th centuries, uh,
before their rapid extinction,passenger pigeons migrated uh
across North America to findfood and uh nesting grounds,
right?
So we're kind of taking thisreally simple sentence, this

(47:12):
kernel sentence.
And now I love talking about,okay, well, what do you notice
before and after?
Look at how much more robustthis is in terms of, you know,
what you've you've you'veproduced, right?
And again, this is a reallynice informal comprehension
check.
Um, I think that, you know, Ithink you could scaffold this.

(47:33):
So if you're working with kids,you could start by expanding
using one question word and thengradually introduce more
question words.
Um, you can pair this againwith a visual.
Um, you know, I think in theactivity book we have some
examples of this with pairing itfrom, you know, I think we have
a second grade science unit,right?
With like lightning flashing inthe sky and using that

(47:56):
lightning flashes as our kernelsentence.
So again, you know, some reallynice ways to bring this in and
then to kind of work kids alongthat continuum so that they're
they're be able to do thisindependently.

Melissa (48:10):
I knew that I'd be learning about these strategies,
but I didn't know I would learnso much about passenger pigeons
today.
So thank you for that, Julia.
I've learned a lot.
All right, our third um andfinal of these um high impact
moves is well again, two, butit's explicit instruction and
cognitive preparation.
Um, you mentioned those a fewtimes, but what does this

(48:31):
actually look like for teachersin practice?

Yeah, I so I first encountered that term
cognitive preparation.
It was during a book studythrough the Pennsylvania branch
of IDA of syntax uh knowledge topractice.
And that's um Margie Gellis andNancy Everhart's book.
Um, and and Nancy alreadyreferenced that.
But they described it as thisdeliberate use of grammatical

(48:57):
and syntactical knowledge thatreally helps teachers to apply
these skills across a variety ofthings that kids are reading,
right?
And I I loved the naming ofthis and it stood out to me.
And this is something thatNancy and I talk a lot about,
but good teaching, effectiveteaching involves a lot of
planning and preparation, right?

(49:18):
So it's really central to whatgood educators do.
Um, it's this very highlymetacognitive teaching is very
metacognitive practice.
And I think not only is thatmetacognition really important,
I think, for all aspects ofteaching, but also for teaching
syntax and sentencecomprehension.

(49:39):
So kind of like reflecting on,you know, my knowledge and then
how can I apply that and pickthose sentences and select um
the passages from the text thatare going to be most impactful.
Um, I think again, anotherthing that, you know, Nancy and
I share and one, you know, bigkey insight I've taken is that

(49:59):
teachers are constantly askingthemselves questions.
Um, I think skilled teachers dothis all the time.
And so they're using it toguide planning, they're using it
to reflect on planning.
And I think Nancy's blueprintis just such a great tool to
help think about that because itgives you that concrete set of
guiding questions to beconsidering as you're planning,

(50:22):
you're pulling your text, you'rereally reflecting on those
questions because it's gonnahelp you be mindful.
Um, you know, again, the thequestions in the blueprint,
right?
They they help us as educatorsanticipate places where kids
might have challenges.
You know, those potentialtroublemakers, they're gonna pop
up.
So we are looking at that textand we're really kind of

(50:43):
thinking about okay, where arethe trouble spots gonna be?
Right.
Um, it helps us plan forexplicit instruction.
You know, we've talked aboutthat throughout, but this idea
that uh we teachers as theexpert are modeling for the this
for them.
We are doing our think aloudfor them so that they can see
how experts are engaging inthese activities.

(51:04):
And then really considering thebest times um for practice.
Uh, I think this is anotherconcept that Nancy and I have
been really um doing a lot ofthinking about recently.
Um, if folks, I'm I know youguys uh had the opportunity to
talk with um Matt Burns, but umagain, the fall uh issue of

(51:27):
practi uh perspectives, whichwas from fall 2023, the practice
issue is awesome.
I think it's a really greatresource for folks.
And one of the articles thatreally kind of stood out to us
was the instructional hierarchyand and how we connect student
literacy or student learning andinstruction.
And that's by Vander Hayden andBurns.

(51:47):
And I think one of the thingsthat we really appreciated is
that the different stages ofpractice that learners engage
in, right?
So we're moving them along toworking towards independence,
but we're gonna move fromacquisition where we're first
learning something and we maynot be accurate yet, right?
This is a new skill to fluencywhere it's, you know, I am

(52:10):
getting it, but it's taking me alittle bit longer to do it,
then to that idea ofgeneralization and application,
right?
So this idea, so they'reeventually reaching this fluency
where they're able to do itquickly, and then they're, you
know, able to apply what they'velearned, you know, to varied
settings.
And I think what this drovehome, uh, you know, is that

(52:31):
students across the tiers,right?
Tier one, tier two, tier three,like they there's a lot of
practice that should be goinginto this work with sentences,
for example.
Um, so I'm not gonna throw mykids in cold with that
structured sentence organizer.
I want to create opportunitieswhere, you know, I'm providing
that explicit instruction andthen they're able to engage and

(52:53):
practice um in meaningful ways.
Um, so I think what Nancy and Ihave been trying to do, and and
what I think educators ingeneral, like what just keeping
this really being cognizant ofit, is this idea that, you know,
students may need manyopportunities to practice and
employ a skill to thatindependent level.

And within the tools and tips that we're
providing, there's a very niceexample of this explicit
instructional continuum or thishierarchy, and then there's an
actual example using sentenceanagrams.
So you all may want to take alook at that.
Um, but I think I think it itbecomes increasingly important
that we're thinking about whatis this strategy and activity

(53:37):
accomplishing?
What's our focus?
Is this about acquisition?
Is this about what's calledfluency in this continuum, or is
this about really applicationor generalization?
And so being very cognizantthat students have to move
through all three.
And different students aregoing to need different um
amounts of dependent upon whothey are and what they bring to

(54:02):
the task.

Lori (54:03):
We love talking with you both because you make the
intangible very tangible.
So that is at least I love itfor that reason.
It's so fun to hear theseexamples and to hear specific
moves that teachers can do toget students really
understanding sentences moredeeply that then will translate
into whole paragraphs, right?

(54:24):
And whole books.
Um, so thank you.
So this is such an importantconversation, and we're so
grateful that you took the timeto have it with us.
Yeah.

Well, we're grateful for the opportunity to
reach out to everyone wholistens to your podcasts and are
committed to continuing tolearn, right?
This is what we all have to bedoing so that we can meet the
needs of our students.
So the two of you have done anoutstanding job with your
podcasts and making thisavailable to educators.
Thank you.

Yeah, no, I think I think that idea of one
of the things of in your farreach is this idea that like
Nancy always has talked aboutlike gramophobia.
It's real, right?
We don't have to be afraid.
We can we can embrace um, youknow, teaching about uh grammar
and syntax.
And I think one of the things,you know, we really try is to
make things actionable andapproachable.

(55:16):
So, you know, we reallyappreciate the time to be able
to share that because that'ssuch a thing that's near and
dear to both of our hearts.

Lori (55:23):
Well, it shows.
Thank you, thank you both.
We're two dynamic duos here onclosing it out.
So thank you so much.

Melissa (55:33):
To stay connected with us, sign up for our email list
at literacypodcast.com, join ourFacebook group, and follow us
on Instagram and Twitter.

Lori (55:43):
If this episode resonated with you, take a moment to share
with a teacher friend, or leaveus a five-star rating and
review on Apple Podcasts.

Melissa (55:53):
Just a quick reminder that the views and opinions
expressed by the hosts andguests of the Melissa and Lori
Love Literacy podcast are notnecessarily the opinions of
Great Minds PBC or itsemployees.

Lori (56:04):
We appreciate you so much, and we're so glad you're here
to learn with us.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Making Sentences Make Sense with Nancy Hennessy and Julia Salamone