November 21, 2025 • 40 mins
Episode 240
Primary teacher Meghan Hein shares how she keeps the text front and center of learning. She discusses the shift from a skills-based focus to an approach where meaning-making drives instruction. The conversation highlights practical strategies for teachers to build knowledge through texts and create a more authentic learning experience. Meghan's insights reflect a commitment to continuous learning and adapting teaching practices to better serve students' needs.
✨ You’ll definitely want to listen to the podcast that inspired this conversation! Episode 37 with Sue Pimentel and Meredith Liben dives into their article Placing Text at the Center of the Standards-Aligned ELA Classroom.
Takeaways
- Shifting from skill-based to meaning-making instruction is crucial.
- Building knowledge through texts is essential for comprehension.
- Teachers must empower themselves through continuous learning.
- Curriculum should support, not dictate, teaching practices.
- Understanding the intent behind texts enriches the learning experience.
- Interleaving skills and content enhances understanding.
- Students thrive when they connect learning to real-world contexts.
Resources
- Refreshed Companion Episode with Meredith Liben & Sue Pimentel (podcast)
- Placing Text at the Center of the Standards-Aligned ELA Classroom (article)
- Teacher Meghan Hein on Instagram (you might know her as always more to learn!)
We answer your questions about teaching reading in The Literacy 50-A Q&A Handbook for Teachers: Real-World Answers to Questions About Reading That Keep You Up at Night.
Grab free resources and episode alerts! Sign up for our email list at literacypodcast.com.
Join our community on Facebook, and follow us on Instagram, Facebook, & Twitter.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lori (00:01):
Keeping text at the heart of classroom instruction
matters.
And today we get to talk aboutwhat that really looks like in
practice.
Melissa (00:09):
Megan Hein, a second grade teacher, shared some
thoughtful reflections on one ofour earlier episodes.
And we couldn't wait to haveher on the podcast.
Megan's here to tell us howcentering text has led to more
meaningful learning for herstudents.
That's why.
Lori (00:23):
You'll hear us reference a past episode with Meredith
Lieben and Sub Himentel calledPlacing Text at the Center of
the ELA Classroom.
That conversation has stuckwith us.
It's one Melissa and I stilltalk about today.
We've refreshed that episodeand linked it in the show notes
if you'd like to go back andlisten.
Melissa (00:42):
But right now, we are so excited to hear from Megan
and her experiences bringingthis work to life in her own
classroom.
Hi, teacher friends.
Lori (00:52):
I'm Lori.
And I'm Melissa.
We are two educators who wantthe best for all kids, and we
know you do too.
Melissa (01:00):
We worked together in Baltimore when the district
adopted a new literacycurriculum.
Lori (01:05):
We realized there was so much more to learn about how to
teach reading and writing.
Melissa (01:10):
Lori and I can't wait to keep learning with you today.
Hi, Megan.
Welcome to the podcast.
Meghan Hein (01:20):
Hi, you guys.
I'm so excited to be here.
Thank you for having me.
Melissa (01:23):
We're excited you're here to hear about what you're
doing in your classroom and totalk about one of our favorite
podcast episodes.
Can't wait.
Meghan Hein (01:30):
Mine too.
It's embarrassing when I admithow many times I have listened
to that one and just every timelean something new.
So I'm really excited to chatabout it too.
Lori (01:40):
Same.
Okay, so let's jump right toit.
Today we're going to talk aboutwhat it really means to place
text at the center of yourclassroom.
And I feel like this is aphrase that we often use a lot
and it like sounds really easy.
Place text at the center ofyour classroom.
Just go ahead and put set textat the middle, you know, put it
the center.
What does that even mean?
(02:01):
And what does that look like inthe day-to-day?
So you're a teacher.
What does it look like in yourclassroom in practice?
And also, why does it matterfor students?
How does this look forstudents?
Meghan Hein (02:13):
Yeah, that's such a loaded question.
So, as far as I understand it,I look at placing text at the
center as the evidence-basedapproach.
And I'm trying to support mystudents more with the meaning
making from what we're reading,what we're writing about.
And so I look at that in thejuxtaposition as how I used to
approach things, which waslooking at the standards to
guide everything we do andfitting in the text to align
(02:36):
with whatever our skill was thatwe were doing.
So, in this sense, the meaningmaking is driving the way that
I'm planning for my students andall the experiences that we do
together.
And there's a lot of parts andcomponents to what that looks
like in my classroom every day.
I have a lot of examples toshare, but mainly just the idea
of how I'm planning and how I'mviewing what we're going to be
(02:59):
doing together and what I wantthem to glean from the
experiences that we are doingtogether as a class.
Melissa (03:06):
Yeah, I'm wondering, I'm you you just alluded to like
what I used to do.
Um and I have in my head allthose things I used to do too.
And I know I've talked about itbefore on the podcast, but I
did a lot of the, you know, whatwas going to be on the test at
the end.
We have to master those skillsbefore we get to that test at
the end.
And Lori's talked about how shedid like a strategy of the week
(03:28):
and those kinds of things.
I'm wondering if you can talk alittle bit about how, you know,
what did what it did you usedto do and dive into it a little
bit more of like, what was theway you used to teach literacy
and approach it?
And what how did you start toshift that?
Meghan Hein (03:42):
Absolutely.
Yeah, all of that resonateswith me as well.
So I started teaching in about2003, 2004, and I grew up in the
era of high-stakes testing.
So I was like that on steroids,basically.
Everything that we did waslooking at what was considered
essential standards and onlyessential because of how
weighted they were on theassessments that we gave at the
(04:02):
end of the year.
And so we were just readingrandom text passages all year
long that really didn't connectto one another with the purpose
and intent of answering multiplechoice questions based on
whatever standard we werefocused on.
And I didn't even know what Ididn't know then, thinking back
to the experience I was offeringmy students and what they came
away with.
Um it's just heartbreaking,honestly.
(04:24):
Hopefully they survived all ofthat and moved on from there.
But eventually it kind ofshifted to, you know, now in the
last few years, I've had acurriculum that is built on more
topical, you know, contentareas.
And I can see how, you know,that supports their
meaning-making more.
But even with that curriculum,I'm still driving my instruction
(04:46):
through skill-based lessons.
And I had this huge aha when myown children that went through
that curriculum in elementaryschool, when they both moved on
to middle school, and they werecoming home just talking so
excitedly about what they weredoing in school, which totally
surprised me because that wasnew for me to have these
conversations with them aboutlike what was, you know, fueling
their motivation.
And they were talking abouttheir history classes and their
(05:09):
science classes.
And as they were talking aboutthese ideas, I was saying to
them, well, you know, youlearned about that in elementary
too, because all of thesetopics that we have in our
curriculum are related onscience and social studies
topics.
And they completely missed themark.
They were like, We've neverhad, you know, science before in
school.
And so I was having thatexperience with them at the same
(05:29):
time that I was hearing thisconversation about placing text
at the center and the intent ofmore meaning-making and building
knowledge alongside ourstudents.
And that was like hugely an ahamoment for me that gave me
purpose to trying to figure thisout with my own second graders
in the day-to-day.
Melissa (05:45):
Yeah, I'm glad you brought up the assessments.
I know that I felt the same waywith you with those
assessments.
And it was this likedata-driven instruction was the
thing.
And and it does it did make somuch sense when I was like, oh
yeah, right.
Like what's gonna be on thatassessment?
And we're gonna teach it, teachit, teach it until they get it.
But you know, when you stepback with reading, it's a little
(06:07):
bit of a different story,right?
It doesn't work that same waythat you would hope it would,
because you don't know what'sgetting in the way of them being
able to answer those multiplechoice questions, right?
It's probably not just what thequestion's asking, it's a lot
about the text.
Meghan Hein (06:22):
You can't anticipate that.
And I feel like that justreminds me that one of the
shifts that I've had afterlistening to that podcast with
Meredith and Sue was just likethe human experience of reading
and writing and thinking about awriter wrote this for us.
Their intent was for us tolearn from this.
And let's think about ourselvesas the audience and you know,
what are we gonna glean fromthis?
(06:44):
Let's see if the messaging andthis, you know, comes alive to
us.
And just thinking about whywe're reading the things that
we're reading brings so muchmore purpose to it than just can
we answer this question?
Like, here's a question aboutthe text now.
Let's see if we can get itright.
It just, I don't know how Ididn't see it before, but it was
almost like this just lifted upthe veil.
And I was like, oh my gosh, Ithought I was doing things
correctly.
(07:04):
I thought I was moving us inthe right direction, but there's
so much more I can be doingthat is gonna leave them with
such a, I don't know, a betterexperience, I guess, with
wanting to continue reading andwriting and growing in those
areas.
Lori (07:17):
Yeah, Megan, you're making me think about um when I
taught, you know, second grade,I would put the standards up,
I'd have them on my desk, like aprintout of the standards, and
I'd be like, okay, now I need tofind a text to match this
standard.
So, you know, it's like I needto find a read aloud where we
(07:39):
are finding cause and effect,right?
And then I'm gonna havestudents practice for that week
or that next week to make acause and effect, and we're
gonna find cause and effect inthis text, and I need to find, I
remember distinctly going tothe library and being like,
okay, I gotta find a whole bunchof books on finding cause and
effect, and then after this,everybody was super with cause
and effect.
And I think the tip uh we'retalking about is putting uh a
(08:01):
text first and then thinkingabout what is this text asking
of students?
What is this text asking of thereader?
What does the reader need tomake a meaning, right?
So does uh is it cause andeffect?
Maybe it is.
And also probably a lot ofother things too, though, right?
(08:22):
And so thinking about how tobring the standards and the
demands into the text that we'rereading in a way that is the
word that comes up for me isauthentic.
Meghan Hein (08:33):
Yes, that's so true.
Authenticity is so essential.
And I feel like I even withknowing what you know you're
sharing about and the, you know,standard posted on the board
and all of those things, evenwhen I started to have that
realization that maybe there wasa different way, I still feel
like the way that my curriculumwas presented was this sort of
(08:55):
robotic method of, you know,these texts are really good,
complex text, but now I'm gonnaannotate them with this skill in
mind, and you're gonna watch meand listen to me.
And I want you to do it justlike I'm doing it.
And so even with likewell-intended, I think
curriculums, it can be so hardto place text at the center,
which is so surreal to thinkabout.
(09:15):
And I feel like this wholemovement is really empowering
for me and for us as teachers.
It's like, we are the ones whoare driving the ship.
We get to create meaning forour students with what we ask
them, with what our focus is,with knowing exactly who's
sitting in front of us andmaking sure that we're bringing
down the barriers that arekeeping them from understanding
what they're being asked to readbased on the little tidbits of
(09:37):
knowledge that we'refrontloading them with
beforehand.
And it's just, it's an excitingmovement that I feel like
creates so much more motivationfor both us as teachers and
practitioners and for thestudents that are experiencing
that with us and alongside uslearning together.
Lori (09:53):
For sure.
Yeah.
Melissa, do you want to asksomething?
Melissa (09:56):
Yeah, I was just, I actually pulled up the quote
from Sue Pimentel from the thisthis podcast we keep alluding
to, placing text at the center.
Um, and it's all about thisauthenticity and the motivation.
And I was like, I feel like Iused to have this written on a
post-it note on my wall.
Um, but I moved, so I had to, Idon't have it anymore.
But she said, we don't read atext to check on our skills and
(10:16):
our comprehension strategies.
The point of reading is tolearn from it.
And then when you learn fromone text, then you learn from
more and you build yourknowledge, right?
And that is the real goal.
And I just love what you'resaying about the authenticity of
that.
It's real, and that changes theway you know you as a teacher
approach it and how your kidsare learning, right?
That's a different way ofthinking about learning and
(10:38):
sounds a lot more interesting tome.
Meghan Hein (10:40):
Yeah, it is.
It feels really good at the endof the day, and it feels
exciting to know.
I've heard them echo thesentiment that like kids aren't
gonna go home and talk about,you know, today I learned how to
find the main idea, but theyare gonna go home and talk about
these topics that you'relearning about and the knowledge
that they're building alongsideyou as they kind of put that
text at the forefront and thinkabout why they're gleaning this
(11:01):
information.
And um, it's so true becauseyeah, it's very exciting to see
the students talking about andwriting more about it and using
the academic vocabulary becauseit's theirs and it's it's like
kind of thrilling to them.
I'm yeah, definitelyremotivated after all of these
years of teaching.
It feels like it's breathingnew life into me, which is
really fun.
Lori (11:22):
It's amazing.
Well, I'm wondering if, youknow, since Melissa just brought
up a quote from that podcast,and in that episode, we did talk
about the article placing textat the center.
Can you share some powerfultakeaways you had after
listening to that episode or andor reading the article?
I think it's really importantto think about a teacher
perspective reacting to that.
Meghan Hein (11:43):
Absolutely.
So yeah, I listened to it thefirst time and I took so many
notes and started talking to myfriends about it.
But it wasn't until I had thereal experiences with the
students in front of me that Ireally was like, okay, I am all
in on this.
This is making so much sense tome.
So one of the first things forme was that we were, you know,
mid-year, we were in a unit thatwas about um time or the past
(12:07):
long ago.
And there's always a poemconnected to our weekly reads
because again, it meets one ofthe standards.
It's like a checkbox, right?
And so I was looking at theteacher's edition, which I don't
often, you know, frequentlylook at, but I was looking at
the directive for going overthis poem with my students.
And the poem itself was reallylike a somber poem looking back
at the past, and it was intendedto be kind of this sort of sad
(12:32):
reflective piece memoir.
And when I looked at what itwas asking me to do, it was
having students, you know,highlight the rhyming words at
the end of each line and alsolook for long A spellings.
And it was just this veryskill-driven poem.
And instead, I was like, youknow what?
I'm gonna take what I learnedfrom that podcast and from
reading their paper, and I'mgonna just read it to my
(12:52):
students.
I'm gonna just sit there, I'mgonna read it to them, and I'm
gonna let them feel what theauthor had for them in that.
And I did it that way for thefirst time.
And their little faces werelooking at me like huge eyes,
and they were all like, Why areyou so sad?
And I'm like, Well, I want youto listen to the words, you
know, why did the author writethis for us?
And gosh, isn't poetry sobeautiful?
They're like artists that withtheir words they can make us,
(13:14):
you know, evoke these feelingsfrom us.
And it was such an excitinglesson, so much more than just
looking for long A spellings andcircling them, which is what I
would have probably done prior.
Um, and then my students got soexcited about poetry, and then
they wanted to write poems, andthen we were thinking about how
we could take these, you know,topics that we were learning
about and write about them in away that was, you know, gonna
(13:36):
evoke feelings from others.
And that was my first, like,okay, I am all in.
This is where it's at.
This is what I've been missing.
Melissa (13:44):
I'm wondering, did you actually go back and do any of
the skills along with it?
Meghan Hein (13:48):
Yeah, so that's a good question.
And that day, no, honestly, no.
Um, and I think that has beenlike the evolution of this whole
process for me was that I thinkat first I was like, okay, I am
all in on this.
Like, forget the standards.
I am just gonna be like thedriver of this ship, and I'm
gonna make all the meaning inthe world out of these texts,
(14:09):
and we're gonna build thesethematic units around them.
And so I went, thankfully, Ihad the autonomy too and the
trust of my administration tojust try that.
And I got students that wereexcited about learning and we
were singing about these topics,and vocabulary was pouring out,
and all of these great thingswere happening.
But again, when it came timefor the types of assessments
(14:31):
that we are required to give, Iwasn't seeing the benefits of my
students' growth per se, andthat particular type of
assessment.
And so in the last year, Imean, this has been like kind of
a three-year process for me.
In the last year, I have beensort of going back to the
standards and diving more intothe standards to better
(14:51):
understand, you know, why theywere written, Sue wrote them,
they have meaning behind them.
And so now I'm looking at theframe of, okay, I've got these
topical units that I'm gonna becovering.
And yes, we're gonna be making,you know, building knowledge
together through these andmaking meaning out of the text.
But what standards do I need toput in place at the forefront
while we're doing that that'sgonna help them leverage, you
(15:12):
know, the type of reading thatthey're doing here and all of
the reading that is to come.
And so I have put more of thatback to make it like very
practical.
We have these four-week unitsthat we do that are covered on
topics.
And the first week, we reallydive into a lot of like
knowledge building, giving themall of these, you know,
multimedia quick presentationsand read alouds and things to
(15:36):
kind of spark their interest inwhat they're gonna be reading.
And then as the unit progressesin through those four weeks, by
the end, we're really workingon more like skill-based
instruction after we prioritizedthe putting the text at the
center and making meaning fromthe text that we're reading.
So yeah, it's been sort of anevolution of at first it was
(15:57):
like abandon it all, and nowwe've kind of come back to it,
but with more purpose, I wouldsay.
Melissa (16:01):
Yeah, that makes sense.
I mean, I could see, I don'tknow the poem that that you're
speaking of, so I don't know ifit would make sense, but I could
see kind of like a balancebetween those two, like you're
saying, right?
That like maybe there is areason to look at the rhyme in
this poem, right?
Maybe I am looking at thoserhyming words for a reason, but
it's what you talked about aswhat it was at first.
I mean, they barely even neededto read the words, right?
(16:22):
They just needed to find thethe words that kind of looked
the same.
I don't even know that theywould have gotten anything from
the poem.
And then on the other hand, youknow, like, oh, like they get
the deep, like it's it's asomber poem and it's sad, and
why they wrote it, but then theymiss out on some of the like
things that they need to helpthem.
And maybe there's a balancethere.
If if that works for that poem,I'm not sure.
Meghan Hein (16:43):
But no, that's absolutely true.
And I think you're right onlike the rhyming aspect of it.
That author intended for thatrhyme to be there for good
reason.
Like it added like a flow tothe poem.
So that's something to focuson.
But using it strictly to lookfor like the long A words, no,
we're gonna use something else.
That's like in a different timeof the day, right?
So um pick and choose, and justagain, like that empowerment to
(17:04):
feel more mindful about whywe're focused on the things that
we're focused on and how doesit help us to better understand
what we're being asked to read.
Lori (17:12):
Megan, you just made a really good point, and I don't
want to let it slide by that youjust said um we could do those
long A words at a different timeof the day.
Yes.
Can you say more about that?
Meghan Hein (17:21):
Yes, I can.
So I'm glad that you broughtthat up because yeah, when we
think about Scarborough'sreading rope or we think of the
active view of reading, therestill very much is an emphasis
on that word recognitioncomponent.
So I'm still working veryexplicitly on, you know, all of
the things that are phonemicawareness and phonics and those
types of skills.
That's in a separate part ofour day that is unrelated to
(17:44):
this.
I look at this more as like thelanguage comprehension focus.
So when we're working ondeveloping our vocabulary and
our comprehension, and whenwe're working on syntactical
features of text and all thosethings that build language, um,
this is the other end of therope.
So we can marry them at times,but certainly like there is a
need for that strong, explicit,very standards-based focus
(18:06):
instruction and foundationalskills.
And then there's this work too,which hopefully will, you know,
build upon each other to createthese skilled readers.
Melissa (18:15):
Megan, I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit
more about um again, I'm comingback to the shifts.
I know you just gave a goodexample, but you also mentioned
that your curriculum that you'reusing, you know, gives you some
good texts, gives you good somegood topics, but doesn't
always, you know, give you theright thing to teach.
Um I'm wondering if you couldgive some more concrete examples
(18:35):
of like, what does this looklike then for you in the
classroom?
Like what are you doing withthose texts that's different
than what is you're being toldto do?
Meghan Hein (18:45):
Yeah, thanks for asking.
So um in my curriculum, like Isaid, it's got these 10 sort of
thematic units that are built onliterary concepts and on
science and social studiesconcepts, and they kind of vary
throughout the year.
Um, when I'm looking at them, Iknow what texts we're going to
be reading because they comewith the you know curriculum.
(19:06):
And before we jump into those,I'm always looking over them
with my grade level team andseeing, you know, what is
standing in the way of themmaking sense of all of these
texts.
So for a concrete example ofthat, um, we do a unit all about
inventors and why inventorscreate inventions, where they
get their ideas from.
And when we were flippingthrough those texts as they were
(19:27):
offered to students, we noticedthat most of the texts that we
were going to be reading werebiographies.
And when I think about mysecond graders, I'm like, how
many experiences have they had?
You know, we've read a lot ofinformational texts, but how
many biographies have they readand how many have been read to
them?
And so we take time to, youknow, do a quick little um chart
or whatever pictorial to justtalk about we're gonna be
(19:49):
reading this new genre.
It is an informational text.
We know about informationaltext and why authors write them
for us, but let's talk aboutwhat biographies are and what's
a predictable structure that wecan expect to glean from every
single text we're gonna bereading.
And we talk about, you know,they're gonna be talking about
their early life.
We're gonna be learning about,you know, some of the hardships
that they had, we're gonna belearning about the inventions
that they created.
(20:09):
And that really just sets themup for success.
So that wasn't built into ourcurriculum.
There's nothing aboutbiographies and talking about
that with students, but lookingahead at that and understanding,
okay, what's gonna be adownfall or what could hinder
them from making sense of whatthey're gonna be reading?
Let's quickly jump ahead infront of that for them.
Lori (20:26):
I love that you're placing text at the center before they
even hit the text.
Yeah.
Right.
You're centering the textstructure for them.
So I love that.
That's so cool.
Meghan Hein (20:35):
And that's like the frame of thinking that my team
and I always have is now what dowe do to leverage their
understanding in this unitthat's gonna help them to now
read biographies for the rest oftime, right?
Now they're very well versed inwhat to expect.
That's gonna be helpful tothem.
So just kind of taking it uponourselves to think about what
things we can add in that willbuild their knowledge base and
(20:56):
help them to, you know, betterunderstand what they're reading.
And some of the other things.
So we always, you know, in theday-to-day look at, you know,
what topics are coming up.
And so part of that, I mean, Ifeel like knowledge building is
so synonymous with this placingtext at the center because when
we're talking about meaningmaking, right, we're building
knowledge alongside that.
So we're always just lookingfor little snippets of
multimedia, which makes learningso much more accessible.
(21:19):
Um, in that unit of long ago,there's this quick little
five-minute video I always showabout the life of a pioneer
because, you know, in the nextday, we're gonna be reading this
fictional narrative that's adiary of a pioneer on the Oregon
Trail.
They certainly don't have anyhistorical background to
understand that.
But if they watch this shortvideo, they're gonna have all of
this imagery and they're gonnabe able to picture what she's
(21:40):
talking about as they're readingher narrative.
And so I feel like anythingthat we can add in, um, I'm
always connecting our writing toour reading, which is done by
the curriculum that I have.
Thankfully, we don't havewriting siloed.
But I feel like I can look tomy students and see what's of
interest, what conversationswe're having, what questions
(22:02):
they have, and kind of add in alittle bit again, feeling more
empowered to not just follow thewriting, you know, topic that
they give us, but going, gosh,they're really like interested
and curious about this.
Let's make this our writingtopic and we're going to inform
others about this, you know,topic of interest that came up
from our reading.
So yeah, there's a millionthings.
(22:22):
I one of the things that I'vebeen trying to do alongside my
students too is think about howare we learning from our text
throughout these four-weekunits.
And so um, I either createsomething like an anticipatory
guide where they're answeringtrue or false questions that I
know they're gonna be learningfrom the text that we're reading
beforehand and then coming backto it after.
One of my favorite ones is umwe build a concept map at the
(22:45):
beginning of this unit about howEarth changes.
And it's got all these like,you know, vocabulary cards on it
with little pictures andthey're sorting it beforehand,
and I'm listening to like whatthey already know about the
topics.
But certainly after we read aseries of texts that's all
about, you know, the fastchanges to Earth and the slow
changes of Earth and all thethings that we study, afterwards
we come back in and watch howthey do their concept map again.
(23:08):
And it's so profound to seelike, wow, we've learned so much
from these authors over thelast few weeks.
Look at you guys are experts atthis topic now.
And um, yeah, I don't know ifthat answered your question.
I have like a million things tosay, but those are just some of
the things that we do in theday-to-day that have been a
change, a shift.
Melissa (23:25):
Yeah, it really made me.
Lori, you mentioned this, likeyou're placing text at the
center throughout.
And and I'm thinking even forplanning, right?
Like you as the teachers areplanning with text at the center
versus, you know, what I wouldhave done is potentially been
like, okay, we need to teachtheme, right?
So I'm gonna do, you know,instead of showing a video about
(23:45):
the topic, I'm gonna show avideo about what a theme is.
And that's gonna get theminterested.
And it would like if that's notwhat we need, right?
What what you're doing is whatwe need to happen, right?
Not like, okay, we're gonna dotheme all week and we're gonna
just practice theme with thesetexts.
But you're thinking about,okay, this text is the one they
I want them to read it, I wantthem to understand it, I want
(24:07):
them to build knowledge from it.
And what do they need, right?
They need some more knowledgeabout what a biography is, they
need knowledge about the topicof this, some probably some
vocabulary they get they getfrom that video that's gonna
help them when they go to readit.
Like you're helping them buildto get to that text versus I
used to when I was doing it thewrong way, was like build
(24:30):
knowledge about the standard orthe skill that I wanted them to
do with it.
Meghan Hein (24:35):
And we were doing that with the best intent,
right?
Thinking that if we taught themabout, you know, determining
theme from a text, they will beable to do that with other
texts.
But then I look back at all ofthe work of these psychologists
that we didn't have, you know,so readily, I think, and weren't
aware of.
And now because of podcastslike yours, like I'm constantly
hearing from people.
And um, Daniel Willingham is apsychologist.
(24:57):
And I look at his papers andI'm like, he wrote this in you
know, 2007.
Why didn't I hear it until youknow last year?
But talking about how theydon't transfer their knowledge
of these strategies from onetext to another, it's not the
strategy that carries, theydon't become experts at finding
the main idea, they becomeexperts at the topic.
Um, and that's what will, youknow, when they go into
(25:18):
secondary and they go into highschool, those are the things
that they carry with them, notthe skill-based, you know,
practice.
And that's a huge aha for me.
Like science shows us that now,now we know we're like
empowered to understand thatbecause we've got this, you
know, research right in ourhands.
Melissa (25:32):
So And that doesn't mean we can't ask them about the
theme or talk about the themeof the book we're reading or ask
them the main idea of a textwe've read, because that might
help them understand it better,right?
So we do still want to do thosethings, but it's the re like
the reason why we're doing it isdifferent.
Meghan Hein (25:49):
Exactly.
And that they should be doingall of those critical thinking
skills once they understand thetext.
So once you've gotten into thetext and once they make sense of
it, that's when we then buildin those higher level, like we I
was saying towards the end ofmy unit, that's where we do that
nitty-gritty work and reallyget into like the the high
level, I don't know,understanding of what the
(26:10):
standards are asking them to dowith what the text they're
reading.
Lori (26:14):
I'm thinking a lot about you're both making me think
about the con the idea ofinterleaving.
That's something that I thinkwe're talking about, but we're
not naming because I think it'soften named in like with
foundational skills instruction,but we're talking about
interleaving of content and alsoskills so that our students can
uh see the content, right?
(26:36):
So let's take your inventortopic or biographies, right?
Both of those are uh ourcontent topics.
They're gonna come back aroundin life for these students,
right?
They're they're gonna hearabout an inventor someday,
they're gonna hear aboutbiographies, they're gonna read
a biography.
They're also going to uh atsome point potentially need to
find the theme.
(26:56):
So it's not that I don't thinkany of us are saying don't teach
a theme.
I think we're saying elevatethe theme through these texts.
And I actually what you'remaking me think about is that
this is a higher level ofapplication, right?
When you have to find the themein a text that is complex,
that's very uh rigorous.
(27:18):
That's hard to do, especiallyif you don't understand the text
we read.
So understanding the text isbut also like the application is
really uh important.
And I think sometimes with umthe quote way that I used to do
it, uh the application wasn'tthere because it was a very um,
(27:38):
it was like a false application,right?
Because there didn't need to bea deep understanding of the
text you because the texts werepredictable.
It's really hard to find thatuh structure or whatever it
might be, or that you know, whenthe text is not predictable,
which like most texts that weread in life are not
predictable.
So that's kind of what you'remaking me think about right now.
Meghan Hein (27:58):
Yeah.
And I still think, you know, Idon't know how common the
practice is, but it certainlywas for me up until a few years
ago with that strategy-driveninstruction or that
standard-driven instructionwhere, you know, like you said,
Lori, the standard was on theboard.
And so in my guided readinggroups with these low-level
texts that students werereading, we are practicing these
high-level, you know, skills ofunderstanding with these very
(28:22):
simple texts.
And that is just not a match.
Nobody needs to work oncritically thinking on this
level, whatever text that'splaced in front of my students.
So using those complex textsthat are at grade level is where
the deep thinking comes from.
And students are able to dothat when we put in enough
supports to help them throughthat and building that meaning
(28:44):
along the way.
Yeah, that's a great point.
Melissa (28:46):
I'm wondering, Megan, if we can come back to this idea
of the standards, because Iknow when we first put out this
podcast with Sue and Meredithand a few other times throughout
the years here, we've heardquestions about, you know, well,
I still have my standards,right?
I they're still there.
I'm I'm required to teach thestandards.
(29:08):
I still have the assessments atthe end of the year that my
students have to take.
I still have to put anobjective on the board every
day, and my principal comes tocheck on it.
You know, so with all thosethings, you know, it's like I I
know people do have this likesimilar to what you already
mentioned, right?
There's this like pool to likeone side or the other.
And I'm wondering if you canshare a little bit more about
(29:30):
that balance and how you foundthat balance.
Meghan Hein (29:33):
Yeah.
So like I shared earlier, sortof been this evolution.
And now my understanding sitsat this point of looking at the
demand of the standards.
When I look at how thestandards are assessed for my
seven and eight year oldstudents, it is it is hard.
And if I don't reach for thatlevel of depth of understanding,
they're not gonna get there.
And not that the test is theend all be all, but I want to
(29:55):
push them, right?
I want to take them to thesehighest levels that I can.
And so I Look at that as agreat goal in mind.
And so, for example, I'm usingthe standards in my planning.
Um, we have three literaryunits that we focus on
throughout the year (30:10):
one at the beginning, one mid-year, one at
the end.
And I have, you know, these 10standards that are built into
our Common Core standards thatwe follow.
So I'm looking at the unit, andthe very first one, um, I'm now
looking at my standards andgoing, what will be supportive
of their understanding now if wefocus really heavily on this
(30:30):
idea and the standards?
What's going to help them thenext time we hit a literary unit
and then the next time?
And so for us and our team,there's a standard that talks
about understanding thestructure of a literary text,
understanding that the beginningintroduces the end, and that
there's, you know, resolution towhatever challenges at the
beginning.
I'm like, that's reallyimportant at the beginning of
the year.
So we go heavy in our firstliterary unit talking about the
(30:52):
predictable nature of, you know,fiction, narrative, text.
And really, it's amazing.
Then the whole year, every timeI'm doing a read aloud of its
fiction or every time theyencounter a fiction text, I'm
hearing my students go, there'sthe climax, or oh, here comes
the resolution.
And I'm like, yes, because thatstuck with them.
They understand that.
Now that builds into everythingelse we do.
Um, in the second literaryunit, this year we focus on
(31:15):
looking at our standards, um,looking at the texts that were
laid out in that particularunit.
And we dove in as a team forthe first time.
I've been back in second gradefor like six years, never really
looked at the standard soclosely, but it was focused on
um point of view, but moreparticularly, it was a fluency
standard.
So it was talking about readingcharacter dialogue in a way
that reflects the point of viewof the character based on their
(31:36):
thoughts and actions.
That's a really high-levelskill.
So I took that down to thenitty-gritty, and I did, you
know, very explicitly teach themlike there's dialogue.
What is dialogue?
How do we know it's dialogue?
What kind of clues in thedialogue help shape the way that
we read it?
And by the end of that unit,built in our own kind of you
know, performative assessmentthat was these um reader's
(31:57):
theater with my students.
And oh my gosh, they had somuch fun demonstrating the, I
mean, even students you wouldn'tthink about really working on
their dialogue and the way thatthey were saying things.
It was amazing.
And now I know that whenthey're encountering any
narrative text with dialogue,they're gonna build into that
standard what they've learned inthat unit.
And then by the end of theyear, that's when I can look at,
(32:17):
okay, we're reading literarytexts.
They really know how to readthem fluently, they understand
character dialogue and thecharacter's point of view, they
definitely understand thestructure of the text.
Now, what kind of standard canwe hit home on that's really
gonna help them continue tobuild?
And that's when we started todo more like comparing and
contrasting of texts and lookingat different characters and
analyzing the characters.
So there's definitely room forthose standards, and I do think
(32:41):
they build and they'reimportant.
Um, it's just a matter of kindof reversing why we're doing it.
Let's use those standards toleverage their depth of
understanding rather than havethem just rotely practice them
for the sake of showing anddemonstrating like I can do this
standard.
It's like, why?
How does it help us as readers?
(33:02):
And I definitely saw aprogression of how they did lend
themselves to helping mystudents become better readers
by the end of the year.
Lori (33:08):
Yeah, you're making me think of a quote that um I came
across in our book recently andI had forgotten about it.
It's Natalie Wexler, and shesaid it's not a matter of
teaching them or not, it'swhat's in the foreground versus
what's in the background.
And the text and the meaningfrom the text needs to be in the
foreground, right?
I think that's kind of what wewere illuminating earlier too,
(33:30):
but you've said it so clearlyright now.
Meghan Hein (33:32):
Yeah, definitely.
Natalie Wexler, I'm a super fanof hers as well.
I feel like I read everythingand watch everything she puts
out.
It's so helpful for me in thisjourney.
Melissa (33:40):
So I just wanted to say, like, it's another example
of placing the text at thecenter, right?
Again, is from the teacherlevel, you're not starting with
the standards and saying, okay,we're gonna go through all these
standards, but you're like,this is the text.
What is the standard that'sgoing to help them understand
this text?
Right.
So it's bringing that text backto the center all the time and
(34:02):
not ignoring the standards, butstarting with the text.
Exactly.
Meghan Hein (34:07):
And I think again, that idea of empowerment,
because when I look at mycurriculum, it's like every week
it's a pretty repetitive cycleof here's the story.
The first day we're looking forkey details, second day we're
looking for key details of thesecond half of the story, third
day we're doing author'spurpose.
It's just very like rotepracticing.
But when we empower ourselvesto think like a reader
(34:28):
approaching text and think aboutwhat is going to be challenging
for them, what's going to helpbuild this up and give them like
superpowers in order to be ableto read this on their own.
And yeah, it's it's prettyexciting.
And they feel it too.
I feel like they're soimpressed with their growth as
they're working through that andthey they're capable of so
much, which is really, reallythrilling.
(34:48):
So all right.
Lori (34:49):
So when we think about all the teachers out there
listening, we know that somemight be listening and have
curriculum, some might belistening, not have curriculum,
some might be listening and havesuper curriculum, some might be
listening and have not so supercurriculum.
So for every teacher out therein any situation, Megan, what
can they do to place text at thecenter?
Meghan Hein (35:10):
That is the question of the day, right?
Lori (35:13):
It really is, right?
We saved it for Yeah.
Meghan Hein (35:16):
And I think curriculum never ever can
replace a knowledgeable teacher,right?
Like the first step is justcontinuing to learn ourselves.
I wouldn't have made any of theshifts, regardless of what
curriculum was in front of me,if I didn't have, you know,
listening to you guys, listeningto Meredith and Sue, reading
more about it.
So I think just empoweringourselves with continuing to
(35:36):
learn is the first step.
And then as far as curriculum,I can't imagine having, you
know, very little to work with.
I'm grateful for thefoundations of what I have in
front of me.
If I didn't, I think I would goto my history and my science
standards and think about thosetopical themes that students are
supposed to be practicing,which often I think in this day
(35:59):
and age, or at least in the lastdecade, have kind of taken a
backseat to literary and youknow, math topics.
Bring those back to theforefront.
And, you know, whateverstudents are working on, let's
say they're doing like, okay,they're supposed to be working
on understanding differenthabitats.
Let me pull some really goodliterature.
We can find things, even freethings, or going to your library
or whatever, your your schoollibrarian, and finding really
(36:20):
good, rich text that studentscan read based on those topics.
Um, I think that's that's agreat starting point.
I'm sure there's more outthere.
Maybe you guys are aware ofother ideas that you know
teachers could have, but I feellike that's where I would be
going is kind of building theselike thematic topical units
based on science and socialstudies themes.
Melissa (36:42):
Yeah, I think that's a really good suggestion,
especially for you know thelower grade levels where you,
you know, I'm assuming youprobably do teach science and
social studies as well.
Um, so it's a that's a greatway to get that in, um, to get
those topics in.
I think we would also probablysuggest the Knowledge Matters
campaign.
Um they have suggestions forknowledge building curricula.
(37:03):
Um, and some of them are freeresources.
So, you know, even if yourschool's not adopting any
curriculum right now, you cantake a look there and see what's
there.
Lori (37:13):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And I I I mean uh teachers arethe best uh sharers of resources
too.
So absolutely I would alwayssay ask a teacher friend, you
know.
Melissa (37:23):
100% same.
Well, Megan, is there anythingelse that you want to share
about, you know, this thisshift, this work that you're
doing with your kids withplacing text at the center?
Anything else we didn't mentionalready?
Meghan Hein (37:35):
No, I I mean I'm just so excited to be able to
chat.
This is very surreal because Ifirst learned about it here.
So coming to chat with you guysabout my journey so far is just
kind of like this beautifulfull circle moment for me.
Um, but yeah, I'm come hang outwith me and socials.
I'm always talking about thisand I don't have it all figured
out yet.
And so I'm constantly justsharing where I'm at in the
(37:58):
journey.
And I love just getting to talkto like-minded educators that
are in the same boat of wantingto do better by their students
and kind of learning alongsidejust trying things and yeah.
Melissa (38:09):
Yeah, Megan, your uh your social media handle is
always more to learn, right?
That is correct, yes.
Yeah, and so I I love thatbecause I think we're in a very
similar place where we're alwayssaying that you know we we love
learning more and there'salways more to learn.
So absolutely.
Yeah, we agree.
Lori (38:26):
Yeah, and we will link everything in the show notes.
We'll link your social mediastuff.
Megan will link the text at thecenter article we've been
talking about, the podcastepisode we've been talking
about.
And I'm even thinking we shouldemail this episode to Meredith
and Stu after.
Of course.
No, after it's live.
I know it's not live right now,but Meredith and Stew, we're
gonna send you this episode.
So oh my gosh.
(38:47):
We are so grateful, Megan, thatyou took some time to talk with
us so that we could hear apractitioner lens.
And we're just really excitedto hear from you in the future
and all that you've learned evenmore about placing text at the
center.
We'll have to do a take two.
Meghan Hein (39:01):
Oh, thank you both so much for all you do.
I have learned so much fromyour interviews, and I'm just so
honored to be here with you.
So thank you.
Melissa (39:11):
To stay connected with us, sign up for our email list
at literacypodcast.com.
Join our Facebook group, andfollow us on Instagram and
Twitter.
Lori (39:21):
If this episode resonated with you, take a moment to share
with a teacher friend, or leaveus a five-star rating and
review on Apple Podcasts.
Melissa (39:31):
Just a quick reminder that the views and opinions
expressed by the hosts andguests of the Melissa and Lori
Love Literacy Podcast are notnecessarily the opinions of
Great Minds PBC or itsemployees.
Lori (39:42):
We appreciate you so much, and we're so glad you're here
to learn with us.
Keeping text at the heart of classroom instruction
matters.
And today we get to talk aboutwhat that really looks like in
practice.
Melissa (00:09):
Megan Hein, a second grade teacher, shared some
thoughtful reflections on one ofour earlier episodes.
And we couldn't wait to haveher on the podcast.
Megan's here to tell us howcentering text has led to more
meaningful learning for herstudents.
That's why.
Lori (00:23):
You'll hear us reference a past episode with Meredith
Lieben and Sub Himentel calledPlacing Text at the Center of
the ELA Classroom.
That conversation has stuckwith us.
It's one Melissa and I stilltalk about today.
We've refreshed that episodeand linked it in the show notes
if you'd like to go back andlisten.
Melissa (00:42):
But right now, we are so excited to hear from Megan
and her experiences bringingthis work to life in her own
classroom.
Hi, teacher friends.
Lori (00:52):
I'm Lori.
And I'm Melissa.
We are two educators who wantthe best for all kids, and we
know you do too.
Melissa (01:00):
We worked together in Baltimore when the district
adopted a new literacycurriculum.
Lori (01:05):
We realized there was so much more to learn about how to
teach reading and writing.
Melissa (01:10):
Lori and I can't wait to keep learning with you today.
Hi, Megan.
Welcome to the podcast.
Meghan Hein (01:20):
Hi, you guys.
I'm so excited to be here.
Thank you for having me.
Melissa (01:23):
We're excited you're here to hear about what you're
doing in your classroom and totalk about one of our favorite
podcast episodes.
Can't wait.
Meghan Hein (01:30):
Mine too.
It's embarrassing when I admithow many times I have listened
to that one and just every timelean something new.
So I'm really excited to chatabout it too.
Lori (01:40):
Same.
Okay, so let's jump right toit.
Today we're going to talk aboutwhat it really means to place
text at the center of yourclassroom.
And I feel like this is aphrase that we often use a lot
and it like sounds really easy.
Place text at the center ofyour classroom.
Just go ahead and put set textat the middle, you know, put it
the center.
What does that even mean?
(02:01):
And what does that look like inthe day-to-day?
So you're a teacher.
What does it look like in yourclassroom in practice?
And also, why does it matterfor students?
How does this look forstudents?
Meghan Hein (02:13):
Yeah, that's such a loaded question.
So, as far as I understand it,I look at placing text at the
center as the evidence-basedapproach.
And I'm trying to support mystudents more with the meaning
making from what we're reading,what we're writing about.
And so I look at that in thejuxtaposition as how I used to
approach things, which waslooking at the standards to
guide everything we do andfitting in the text to align
(02:36):
with whatever our skill was thatwe were doing.
So, in this sense, the meaningmaking is driving the way that
I'm planning for my students andall the experiences that we do
together.
And there's a lot of parts andcomponents to what that looks
like in my classroom every day.
I have a lot of examples toshare, but mainly just the idea
of how I'm planning and how I'mviewing what we're going to be
(02:59):
doing together and what I wantthem to glean from the
experiences that we are doingtogether as a class.
Melissa (03:06):
Yeah, I'm wondering, I'm you you just alluded to like
what I used to do.
Um and I have in my head allthose things I used to do too.
And I know I've talked about itbefore on the podcast, but I
did a lot of the, you know, whatwas going to be on the test at
the end.
We have to master those skillsbefore we get to that test at
the end.
And Lori's talked about how shedid like a strategy of the week
(03:28):
and those kinds of things.
I'm wondering if you can talk alittle bit about how, you know,
what did what it did you usedto do and dive into it a little
bit more of like, what was theway you used to teach literacy
and approach it?
And what how did you start toshift that?
Meghan Hein (03:42):
Absolutely.
Yeah, all of that resonateswith me as well.
So I started teaching in about2003, 2004, and I grew up in the
era of high-stakes testing.
So I was like that on steroids,basically.
Everything that we did waslooking at what was considered
essential standards and onlyessential because of how
weighted they were on theassessments that we gave at the
(04:02):
end of the year.
And so we were just readingrandom text passages all year
long that really didn't connectto one another with the purpose
and intent of answering multiplechoice questions based on
whatever standard we werefocused on.
And I didn't even know what Ididn't know then, thinking back
to the experience I was offeringmy students and what they came
away with.
Um it's just heartbreaking,honestly.
(04:24):
Hopefully they survived all ofthat and moved on from there.
But eventually it kind ofshifted to, you know, now in the
last few years, I've had acurriculum that is built on more
topical, you know, contentareas.
And I can see how, you know,that supports their
meaning-making more.
But even with that curriculum,I'm still driving my instruction
(04:46):
through skill-based lessons.
And I had this huge aha when myown children that went through
that curriculum in elementaryschool, when they both moved on
to middle school, and they werecoming home just talking so
excitedly about what they weredoing in school, which totally
surprised me because that wasnew for me to have these
conversations with them aboutlike what was, you know, fueling
their motivation.
And they were talking abouttheir history classes and their
(05:09):
science classes.
And as they were talking aboutthese ideas, I was saying to
them, well, you know, youlearned about that in elementary
too, because all of thesetopics that we have in our
curriculum are related onscience and social studies
topics.
And they completely missed themark.
They were like, We've neverhad, you know, science before in
school.
And so I was having thatexperience with them at the same
(05:29):
time that I was hearing thisconversation about placing text
at the center and the intent ofmore meaning-making and building
knowledge alongside ourstudents.
And that was like hugely an ahamoment for me that gave me
purpose to trying to figure thisout with my own second graders
in the day-to-day.
Melissa (05:45):
Yeah, I'm glad you brought up the assessments.
I know that I felt the same waywith you with those
assessments.
And it was this likedata-driven instruction was the
thing.
And and it does it did make somuch sense when I was like, oh
yeah, right.
Like what's gonna be on thatassessment?
And we're gonna teach it, teachit, teach it until they get it.
But you know, when you stepback with reading, it's a little
(06:07):
bit of a different story,right?
It doesn't work that same waythat you would hope it would,
because you don't know what'sgetting in the way of them being
able to answer those multiplechoice questions, right?
It's probably not just what thequestion's asking, it's a lot
about the text.
Meghan Hein (06:22):
You can't anticipate that.
And I feel like that justreminds me that one of the
shifts that I've had afterlistening to that podcast with
Meredith and Sue was just likethe human experience of reading
and writing and thinking about awriter wrote this for us.
Their intent was for us tolearn from this.
And let's think about ourselvesas the audience and you know,
what are we gonna glean fromthis?
(06:44):
Let's see if the messaging andthis, you know, comes alive to
us.
And just thinking about whywe're reading the things that
we're reading brings so muchmore purpose to it than just can
we answer this question?
Like, here's a question aboutthe text now.
Let's see if we can get itright.
It just, I don't know how Ididn't see it before, but it was
almost like this just lifted upthe veil.
And I was like, oh my gosh, Ithought I was doing things
correctly.
(07:04):
I thought I was moving us inthe right direction, but there's
so much more I can be doingthat is gonna leave them with
such a, I don't know, a betterexperience, I guess, with
wanting to continue reading andwriting and growing in those
areas.
Lori (07:17):
Yeah, Megan, you're making me think about um when I
taught, you know, second grade,I would put the standards up,
I'd have them on my desk, like aprintout of the standards, and
I'd be like, okay, now I need tofind a text to match this
standard.
So, you know, it's like I needto find a read aloud where we
(07:39):
are finding cause and effect,right?
And then I'm gonna havestudents practice for that week
or that next week to make acause and effect, and we're
gonna find cause and effect inthis text, and I need to find, I
remember distinctly going tothe library and being like,
okay, I gotta find a whole bunchof books on finding cause and
effect, and then after this,everybody was super with cause
and effect.
And I think the tip uh we'retalking about is putting uh a
(08:01):
text first and then thinkingabout what is this text asking
of students?
What is this text asking of thereader?
What does the reader need tomake a meaning, right?
So does uh is it cause andeffect?
Maybe it is.
And also probably a lot ofother things too, though, right?
(08:22):
And so thinking about how tobring the standards and the
demands into the text that we'rereading in a way that is the
word that comes up for me isauthentic.
Meghan Hein (08:33):
Yes, that's so true.
Authenticity is so essential.
And I feel like I even withknowing what you know you're
sharing about and the, you know,standard posted on the board
and all of those things, evenwhen I started to have that
realization that maybe there wasa different way, I still feel
like the way that my curriculumwas presented was this sort of
(08:55):
robotic method of, you know,these texts are really good,
complex text, but now I'm gonnaannotate them with this skill in
mind, and you're gonna watch meand listen to me.
And I want you to do it justlike I'm doing it.
And so even with likewell-intended, I think
curriculums, it can be so hardto place text at the center,
which is so surreal to thinkabout.
(09:15):
And I feel like this wholemovement is really empowering
for me and for us as teachers.
It's like, we are the ones whoare driving the ship.
We get to create meaning forour students with what we ask
them, with what our focus is,with knowing exactly who's
sitting in front of us andmaking sure that we're bringing
down the barriers that arekeeping them from understanding
what they're being asked to readbased on the little tidbits of
(09:37):
knowledge that we'refrontloading them with
beforehand.
And it's just, it's an excitingmovement that I feel like
creates so much more motivationfor both us as teachers and
practitioners and for thestudents that are experiencing
that with us and alongside uslearning together.
Lori (09:53):
For sure.
Yeah.
Melissa, do you want to asksomething?
Melissa (09:56):
Yeah, I was just, I actually pulled up the quote
from Sue Pimentel from the thisthis podcast we keep alluding
to, placing text at the center.
Um, and it's all about thisauthenticity and the motivation.
And I was like, I feel like Iused to have this written on a
post-it note on my wall.
Um, but I moved, so I had to, Idon't have it anymore.
But she said, we don't read atext to check on our skills and
(10:16):
our comprehension strategies.
The point of reading is tolearn from it.
And then when you learn fromone text, then you learn from
more and you build yourknowledge, right?
And that is the real goal.
And I just love what you'resaying about the authenticity of
that.
It's real, and that changes theway you know you as a teacher
approach it and how your kidsare learning, right?
That's a different way ofthinking about learning and
(10:38):
sounds a lot more interesting tome.
Meghan Hein (10:40):
Yeah, it is.
It feels really good at the endof the day, and it feels
exciting to know.
I've heard them echo thesentiment that like kids aren't
gonna go home and talk about,you know, today I learned how to
find the main idea, but theyare gonna go home and talk about
these topics that you'relearning about and the knowledge
that they're building alongsideyou as they kind of put that
text at the forefront and thinkabout why they're gleaning this
(11:01):
information.
And um, it's so true becauseyeah, it's very exciting to see
the students talking about andwriting more about it and using
the academic vocabulary becauseit's theirs and it's it's like
kind of thrilling to them.
I'm yeah, definitelyremotivated after all of these
years of teaching.
It feels like it's breathingnew life into me, which is
really fun.
Lori (11:22):
It's amazing.
Well, I'm wondering if, youknow, since Melissa just brought
up a quote from that podcast,and in that episode, we did talk
about the article placing textat the center.
Can you share some powerfultakeaways you had after
listening to that episode or andor reading the article?
I think it's really importantto think about a teacher
perspective reacting to that.
Meghan Hein (11:43):
Absolutely.
So yeah, I listened to it thefirst time and I took so many
notes and started talking to myfriends about it.
But it wasn't until I had thereal experiences with the
students in front of me that Ireally was like, okay, I am all
in on this.
This is making so much sense tome.
So one of the first things forme was that we were, you know,
mid-year, we were in a unit thatwas about um time or the past
(12:07):
long ago.
And there's always a poemconnected to our weekly reads
because again, it meets one ofthe standards.
It's like a checkbox, right?
And so I was looking at theteacher's edition, which I don't
often, you know, frequentlylook at, but I was looking at
the directive for going overthis poem with my students.
And the poem itself was reallylike a somber poem looking back
at the past, and it was intendedto be kind of this sort of sad
(12:32):
reflective piece memoir.
And when I looked at what itwas asking me to do, it was
having students, you know,highlight the rhyming words at
the end of each line and alsolook for long A spellings.
And it was just this veryskill-driven poem.
And instead, I was like, youknow what?
I'm gonna take what I learnedfrom that podcast and from
reading their paper, and I'mgonna just read it to my
(12:52):
students.
I'm gonna just sit there, I'mgonna read it to them, and I'm
gonna let them feel what theauthor had for them in that.
And I did it that way for thefirst time.
And their little faces werelooking at me like huge eyes,
and they were all like, Why areyou so sad?
And I'm like, Well, I want youto listen to the words, you
know, why did the author writethis for us?
And gosh, isn't poetry sobeautiful?
They're like artists that withtheir words they can make us,
(13:14):
you know, evoke these feelingsfrom us.
And it was such an excitinglesson, so much more than just
looking for long A spellings andcircling them, which is what I
would have probably done prior.
Um, and then my students got soexcited about poetry, and then
they wanted to write poems, andthen we were thinking about how
we could take these, you know,topics that we were learning
about and write about them in away that was, you know, gonna
(13:36):
evoke feelings from others.
And that was my first, like,okay, I am all in.
This is where it's at.
This is what I've been missing.
Melissa (13:44):
I'm wondering, did you actually go back and do any of
the skills along with it?
Meghan Hein (13:48):
Yeah, so that's a good question.
And that day, no, honestly, no.
Um, and I think that has beenlike the evolution of this whole
process for me was that I thinkat first I was like, okay, I am
all in on this.
Like, forget the standards.
I am just gonna be like thedriver of this ship, and I'm
gonna make all the meaning inthe world out of these texts,
(14:09):
and we're gonna build thesethematic units around them.
And so I went, thankfully, Ihad the autonomy too and the
trust of my administration tojust try that.
And I got students that wereexcited about learning and we
were singing about these topics,and vocabulary was pouring out,
and all of these great thingswere happening.
But again, when it came timefor the types of assessments
(14:31):
that we are required to give, Iwasn't seeing the benefits of my
students' growth per se, andthat particular type of
assessment.
And so in the last year, Imean, this has been like kind of
a three-year process for me.
In the last year, I have beensort of going back to the
standards and diving more intothe standards to better
(14:51):
understand, you know, why theywere written, Sue wrote them,
they have meaning behind them.
And so now I'm looking at theframe of, okay, I've got these
topical units that I'm gonna becovering.
And yes, we're gonna be making,you know, building knowledge
together through these andmaking meaning out of the text.
But what standards do I need toput in place at the forefront
while we're doing that that'sgonna help them leverage, you
(15:12):
know, the type of reading thatthey're doing here and all of
the reading that is to come.
And so I have put more of thatback to make it like very
practical.
We have these four-week unitsthat we do that are covered on
topics.
And the first week, we reallydive into a lot of like
knowledge building, giving themall of these, you know,
multimedia quick presentationsand read alouds and things to
(15:36):
kind of spark their interest inwhat they're gonna be reading.
And then as the unit progressesin through those four weeks, by
the end, we're really workingon more like skill-based
instruction after we prioritizedthe putting the text at the
center and making meaning fromthe text that we're reading.
So yeah, it's been sort of anevolution of at first it was
(15:57):
like abandon it all, and nowwe've kind of come back to it,
but with more purpose, I wouldsay.
Melissa (16:01):
Yeah, that makes sense.
I mean, I could see, I don'tknow the poem that that you're
speaking of, so I don't know ifit would make sense, but I could
see kind of like a balancebetween those two, like you're
saying, right?
That like maybe there is areason to look at the rhyme in
this poem, right?
Maybe I am looking at thoserhyming words for a reason, but
it's what you talked about aswhat it was at first.
I mean, they barely even neededto read the words, right?
(16:22):
They just needed to find thethe words that kind of looked
the same.
I don't even know that theywould have gotten anything from
the poem.
And then on the other hand, youknow, like, oh, like they get
the deep, like it's it's asomber poem and it's sad, and
why they wrote it, but then theymiss out on some of the like
things that they need to helpthem.
And maybe there's a balancethere.
If if that works for that poem,I'm not sure.
Meghan Hein (16:43):
But no, that's absolutely true.
And I think you're right onlike the rhyming aspect of it.
That author intended for thatrhyme to be there for good
reason.
Like it added like a flow tothe poem.
So that's something to focuson.
But using it strictly to lookfor like the long A words, no,
we're gonna use something else.
That's like in a different timeof the day, right?
So um pick and choose, and justagain, like that empowerment to
(17:04):
feel more mindful about whywe're focused on the things that
we're focused on and how doesit help us to better understand
what we're being asked to read.
Lori (17:12):
Megan, you just made a really good point, and I don't
want to let it slide by that youjust said um we could do those
long A words at a different timeof the day.
Yes.
Can you say more about that?
Meghan Hein (17:21):
Yes, I can.
So I'm glad that you broughtthat up because yeah, when we
think about Scarborough'sreading rope or we think of the
active view of reading, therestill very much is an emphasis
on that word recognitioncomponent.
So I'm still working veryexplicitly on, you know, all of
the things that are phonemicawareness and phonics and those
types of skills.
That's in a separate part ofour day that is unrelated to
(17:44):
this.
I look at this more as like thelanguage comprehension focus.
So when we're working ondeveloping our vocabulary and
our comprehension, and whenwe're working on syntactical
features of text and all thosethings that build language, um,
this is the other end of therope.
So we can marry them at times,but certainly like there is a
need for that strong, explicit,very standards-based focus
(18:06):
instruction and foundationalskills.
And then there's this work too,which hopefully will, you know,
build upon each other to createthese skilled readers.
Melissa (18:15):
Megan, I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit
more about um again, I'm comingback to the shifts.
I know you just gave a goodexample, but you also mentioned
that your curriculum that you'reusing, you know, gives you some
good texts, gives you good somegood topics, but doesn't
always, you know, give you theright thing to teach.
Um I'm wondering if you couldgive some more concrete examples
(18:35):
of like, what does this looklike then for you in the
classroom?
Like what are you doing withthose texts that's different
than what is you're being toldto do?
Meghan Hein (18:45):
Yeah, thanks for asking.
So um in my curriculum, like Isaid, it's got these 10 sort of
thematic units that are built onliterary concepts and on
science and social studiesconcepts, and they kind of vary
throughout the year.
Um, when I'm looking at them, Iknow what texts we're going to
be reading because they comewith the you know curriculum.
(19:06):
And before we jump into those,I'm always looking over them
with my grade level team andseeing, you know, what is
standing in the way of themmaking sense of all of these
texts.
So for a concrete example ofthat, um, we do a unit all about
inventors and why inventorscreate inventions, where they
get their ideas from.
And when we were flippingthrough those texts as they were
(19:27):
offered to students, we noticedthat most of the texts that we
were going to be reading werebiographies.
And when I think about mysecond graders, I'm like, how
many experiences have they had?
You know, we've read a lot ofinformational texts, but how
many biographies have they readand how many have been read to
them?
And so we take time to, youknow, do a quick little um chart
or whatever pictorial to justtalk about we're gonna be
(19:49):
reading this new genre.
It is an informational text.
We know about informationaltext and why authors write them
for us, but let's talk aboutwhat biographies are and what's
a predictable structure that wecan expect to glean from every
single text we're gonna bereading.
And we talk about, you know,they're gonna be talking about
their early life.
We're gonna be learning about,you know, some of the hardships
that they had, we're gonna belearning about the inventions
that they created.
(20:09):
And that really just sets themup for success.
So that wasn't built into ourcurriculum.
There's nothing aboutbiographies and talking about
that with students, but lookingahead at that and understanding,
okay, what's gonna be adownfall or what could hinder
them from making sense of whatthey're gonna be reading?
Let's quickly jump ahead infront of that for them.
Lori (20:26):
I love that you're placing text at the center before they
even hit the text.
Yeah.
Right.
You're centering the textstructure for them.
So I love that.
That's so cool.
Meghan Hein (20:35):
And that's like the frame of thinking that my team
and I always have is now what dowe do to leverage their
understanding in this unitthat's gonna help them to now
read biographies for the rest oftime, right?
Now they're very well versed inwhat to expect.
That's gonna be helpful tothem.
So just kind of taking it uponourselves to think about what
things we can add in that willbuild their knowledge base and
(20:56):
help them to, you know, betterunderstand what they're reading.
And some of the other things.
So we always, you know, in theday-to-day look at, you know,
what topics are coming up.
And so part of that, I mean, Ifeel like knowledge building is
so synonymous with this placingtext at the center because when
we're talking about meaningmaking, right, we're building
knowledge alongside that.
So we're always just lookingfor little snippets of
multimedia, which makes learningso much more accessible.
(21:19):
Um, in that unit of long ago,there's this quick little
five-minute video I always showabout the life of a pioneer
because, you know, in the nextday, we're gonna be reading this
fictional narrative that's adiary of a pioneer on the Oregon
Trail.
They certainly don't have anyhistorical background to
understand that.
But if they watch this shortvideo, they're gonna have all of
this imagery and they're gonnabe able to picture what she's
(21:40):
talking about as they're readingher narrative.
And so I feel like anythingthat we can add in, um, I'm
always connecting our writing toour reading, which is done by
the curriculum that I have.
Thankfully, we don't havewriting siloed.
But I feel like I can look tomy students and see what's of
interest, what conversationswe're having, what questions
(22:02):
they have, and kind of add in alittle bit again, feeling more
empowered to not just follow thewriting, you know, topic that
they give us, but going, gosh,they're really like interested
and curious about this.
Let's make this our writingtopic and we're going to inform
others about this, you know,topic of interest that came up
from our reading.
So yeah, there's a millionthings.
(22:22):
I one of the things that I'vebeen trying to do alongside my
students too is think about howare we learning from our text
throughout these four-weekunits.
And so um, I either createsomething like an anticipatory
guide where they're answeringtrue or false questions that I
know they're gonna be learningfrom the text that we're reading
beforehand and then coming backto it after.
One of my favorite ones is umwe build a concept map at the
(22:45):
beginning of this unit about howEarth changes.
And it's got all these like,you know, vocabulary cards on it
with little pictures andthey're sorting it beforehand,
and I'm listening to like whatthey already know about the
topics.
But certainly after we read aseries of texts that's all
about, you know, the fastchanges to Earth and the slow
changes of Earth and all thethings that we study, afterwards
we come back in and watch howthey do their concept map again.
(23:08):
And it's so profound to seelike, wow, we've learned so much
from these authors over thelast few weeks.
Look at you guys are experts atthis topic now.
And um, yeah, I don't know ifthat answered your question.
I have like a million things tosay, but those are just some of
the things that we do in theday-to-day that have been a
change, a shift.
Melissa (23:25):
Yeah, it really made me.
Lori, you mentioned this, likeyou're placing text at the
center throughout.
And and I'm thinking even forplanning, right?
Like you as the teachers areplanning with text at the center
versus, you know, what I wouldhave done is potentially been
like, okay, we need to teachtheme, right?
So I'm gonna do, you know,instead of showing a video about
(23:45):
the topic, I'm gonna show avideo about what a theme is.
And that's gonna get theminterested.
And it would like if that's notwhat we need, right?
What what you're doing is whatwe need to happen, right?
Not like, okay, we're gonna dotheme all week and we're gonna
just practice theme with thesetexts.
But you're thinking about,okay, this text is the one they
I want them to read it, I wantthem to understand it, I want
(24:07):
them to build knowledge from it.
And what do they need, right?
They need some more knowledgeabout what a biography is, they
need knowledge about the topicof this, some probably some
vocabulary they get they getfrom that video that's gonna
help them when they go to readit.
Like you're helping them buildto get to that text versus I
used to when I was doing it thewrong way, was like build
(24:30):
knowledge about the standard orthe skill that I wanted them to
do with it.
Meghan Hein (24:35):
And we were doing that with the best intent,
right?
Thinking that if we taught themabout, you know, determining
theme from a text, they will beable to do that with other
texts.
But then I look back at all ofthe work of these psychologists
that we didn't have, you know,so readily, I think, and weren't
aware of.
And now because of podcastslike yours, like I'm constantly
hearing from people.
And um, Daniel Willingham is apsychologist.
(24:57):
And I look at his papers andI'm like, he wrote this in you
know, 2007.
Why didn't I hear it until youknow last year?
But talking about how theydon't transfer their knowledge
of these strategies from onetext to another, it's not the
strategy that carries, theydon't become experts at finding
the main idea, they becomeexperts at the topic.
Um, and that's what will, youknow, when they go into
(25:18):
secondary and they go into highschool, those are the things
that they carry with them, notthe skill-based, you know,
practice.
And that's a huge aha for me.
Like science shows us that now,now we know we're like
empowered to understand thatbecause we've got this, you
know, research right in ourhands.
Melissa (25:32):
So And that doesn't mean we can't ask them about the
theme or talk about the themeof the book we're reading or ask
them the main idea of a textwe've read, because that might
help them understand it better,right?
So we do still want to do thosethings, but it's the re like
the reason why we're doing it isdifferent.
Meghan Hein (25:49):
Exactly.
And that they should be doingall of those critical thinking
skills once they understand thetext.
So once you've gotten into thetext and once they make sense of
it, that's when we then buildin those higher level, like we I
was saying towards the end ofmy unit, that's where we do that
nitty-gritty work and reallyget into like the the high
level, I don't know,understanding of what the
(26:10):
standards are asking them to dowith what the text they're
reading.
Lori (26:14):
I'm thinking a lot about you're both making me think
about the con the idea ofinterleaving.
That's something that I thinkwe're talking about, but we're
not naming because I think it'soften named in like with
foundational skills instruction,but we're talking about
interleaving of content and alsoskills so that our students can
uh see the content, right?
(26:36):
So let's take your inventortopic or biographies, right?
Both of those are uh ourcontent topics.
They're gonna come back aroundin life for these students,
right?
They're they're gonna hearabout an inventor someday,
they're gonna hear aboutbiographies, they're gonna read
a biography.
They're also going to uh atsome point potentially need to
find the theme.
(26:56):
So it's not that I don't thinkany of us are saying don't teach
a theme.
I think we're saying elevatethe theme through these texts.
And I actually what you'remaking me think about is that
this is a higher level ofapplication, right?
When you have to find the themein a text that is complex,
that's very uh rigorous.
(27:18):
That's hard to do, especiallyif you don't understand the text
we read.
So understanding the text isbut also like the application is
really uh important.
And I think sometimes with umthe quote way that I used to do
it, uh the application wasn'tthere because it was a very um,
(27:38):
it was like a false application,right?
Because there didn't need to bea deep understanding of the
text you because the texts werepredictable.
It's really hard to find thatuh structure or whatever it
might be, or that you know, whenthe text is not predictable,
which like most texts that weread in life are not
predictable.
So that's kind of what you'remaking me think about right now.
Meghan Hein (27:58):
Yeah.
And I still think, you know, Idon't know how common the
practice is, but it certainlywas for me up until a few years
ago with that strategy-driveninstruction or that
standard-driven instructionwhere, you know, like you said,
Lori, the standard was on theboard.
And so in my guided readinggroups with these low-level
texts that students werereading, we are practicing these
high-level, you know, skills ofunderstanding with these very
(28:22):
simple texts.
And that is just not a match.
Nobody needs to work oncritically thinking on this
level, whatever text that'splaced in front of my students.
So using those complex textsthat are at grade level is where
the deep thinking comes from.
And students are able to dothat when we put in enough
supports to help them throughthat and building that meaning
(28:44):
along the way.
Yeah, that's a great point.
Melissa (28:46):
I'm wondering, Megan, if we can come back to this idea
of the standards, because Iknow when we first put out this
podcast with Sue and Meredithand a few other times throughout
the years here, we've heardquestions about, you know, well,
I still have my standards,right?
I they're still there.
I'm I'm required to teach thestandards.
(29:08):
I still have the assessments atthe end of the year that my
students have to take.
I still have to put anobjective on the board every
day, and my principal comes tocheck on it.
You know, so with all thosethings, you know, it's like I I
know people do have this likesimilar to what you already
mentioned, right?
There's this like pool to likeone side or the other.
And I'm wondering if you canshare a little bit more about
(29:30):
that balance and how you foundthat balance.
Meghan Hein (29:33):
Yeah.
So like I shared earlier, sortof been this evolution.
And now my understanding sitsat this point of looking at the
demand of the standards.
When I look at how thestandards are assessed for my
seven and eight year oldstudents, it is it is hard.
And if I don't reach for thatlevel of depth of understanding,
they're not gonna get there.
And not that the test is theend all be all, but I want to
(29:55):
push them, right?
I want to take them to thesehighest levels that I can.
And so I Look at that as agreat goal in mind.
And so, for example, I'm usingthe standards in my planning.
Um, we have three literaryunits that we focus on
throughout the year (30:10):
one at the beginning, one mid-year, one at
the end.
And I have, you know, these 10standards that are built into
our Common Core standards thatwe follow.
So I'm looking at the unit, andthe very first one, um, I'm now
looking at my standards andgoing, what will be supportive
of their understanding now if wefocus really heavily on this
(30:30):
idea and the standards?
What's going to help them thenext time we hit a literary unit
and then the next time?
And so for us and our team,there's a standard that talks
about understanding thestructure of a literary text,
understanding that the beginningintroduces the end, and that
there's, you know, resolution towhatever challenges at the
beginning.
I'm like, that's reallyimportant at the beginning of
the year.
So we go heavy in our firstliterary unit talking about the
(30:52):
predictable nature of, you know,fiction, narrative, text.
And really, it's amazing.
Then the whole year, every timeI'm doing a read aloud of its
fiction or every time theyencounter a fiction text, I'm
hearing my students go, there'sthe climax, or oh, here comes
the resolution.
And I'm like, yes, because thatstuck with them.
They understand that.
Now that builds into everythingelse we do.
Um, in the second literaryunit, this year we focus on
(31:15):
looking at our standards, um,looking at the texts that were
laid out in that particularunit.
And we dove in as a team forthe first time.
I've been back in second gradefor like six years, never really
looked at the standard soclosely, but it was focused on
um point of view, but moreparticularly, it was a fluency
standard.
So it was talking about readingcharacter dialogue in a way
that reflects the point of viewof the character based on their
(31:36):
thoughts and actions.
That's a really high-levelskill.
So I took that down to thenitty-gritty, and I did, you
know, very explicitly teach themlike there's dialogue.
What is dialogue?
How do we know it's dialogue?
What kind of clues in thedialogue help shape the way that
we read it?
And by the end of that unit,built in our own kind of you
know, performative assessmentthat was these um reader's
(31:57):
theater with my students.
And oh my gosh, they had somuch fun demonstrating the, I
mean, even students you wouldn'tthink about really working on
their dialogue and the way thatthey were saying things.
It was amazing.
And now I know that whenthey're encountering any
narrative text with dialogue,they're gonna build into that
standard what they've learned inthat unit.
And then by the end of theyear, that's when I can look at,
(32:17):
okay, we're reading literarytexts.
They really know how to readthem fluently, they understand
character dialogue and thecharacter's point of view, they
definitely understand thestructure of the text.
Now, what kind of standard canwe hit home on that's really
gonna help them continue tobuild?
And that's when we started todo more like comparing and
contrasting of texts and lookingat different characters and
analyzing the characters.
So there's definitely room forthose standards, and I do think
(32:41):
they build and they'reimportant.
Um, it's just a matter of kindof reversing why we're doing it.
Let's use those standards toleverage their depth of
understanding rather than havethem just rotely practice them
for the sake of showing anddemonstrating like I can do this
standard.
It's like, why?
How does it help us as readers?
(33:02):
And I definitely saw aprogression of how they did lend
themselves to helping mystudents become better readers
by the end of the year.
Lori (33:08):
Yeah, you're making me think of a quote that um I came
across in our book recently andI had forgotten about it.
It's Natalie Wexler, and shesaid it's not a matter of
teaching them or not, it'swhat's in the foreground versus
what's in the background.
And the text and the meaningfrom the text needs to be in the
foreground, right?
I think that's kind of what wewere illuminating earlier too,
(33:30):
but you've said it so clearlyright now.
Meghan Hein (33:32):
Yeah, definitely.
Natalie Wexler, I'm a super fanof hers as well.
I feel like I read everythingand watch everything she puts
out.
It's so helpful for me in thisjourney.
Melissa (33:40):
So I just wanted to say, like, it's another example
of placing the text at thecenter, right?
Again, is from the teacherlevel, you're not starting with
the standards and saying, okay,we're gonna go through all these
standards, but you're like,this is the text.
What is the standard that'sgoing to help them understand
this text?
Right.
So it's bringing that text backto the center all the time and
(34:02):
not ignoring the standards, butstarting with the text.
Exactly.
Meghan Hein (34:07):
And I think again, that idea of empowerment,
because when I look at mycurriculum, it's like every week
it's a pretty repetitive cycleof here's the story.
The first day we're looking forkey details, second day we're
looking for key details of thesecond half of the story, third
day we're doing author'spurpose.
It's just very like rotepracticing.
But when we empower ourselvesto think like a reader
(34:28):
approaching text and think aboutwhat is going to be challenging
for them, what's going to helpbuild this up and give them like
superpowers in order to be ableto read this on their own.
And yeah, it's it's prettyexciting.
And they feel it too.
I feel like they're soimpressed with their growth as
they're working through that andthey they're capable of so
much, which is really, reallythrilling.
(34:48):
So all right.
Lori (34:49):
So when we think about all the teachers out there
listening, we know that somemight be listening and have
curriculum, some might belistening, not have curriculum,
some might be listening and havesuper curriculum, some might be
listening and have not so supercurriculum.
So for every teacher out therein any situation, Megan, what
can they do to place text at thecenter?
Meghan Hein (35:10):
That is the question of the day, right?
Lori (35:13):
It really is, right?
We saved it for Yeah.
Meghan Hein (35:16):
And I think curriculum never ever can
replace a knowledgeable teacher,right?
Like the first step is justcontinuing to learn ourselves.
I wouldn't have made any of theshifts, regardless of what
curriculum was in front of me,if I didn't have, you know,
listening to you guys, listeningto Meredith and Sue, reading
more about it.
So I think just empoweringourselves with continuing to
(35:36):
learn is the first step.
And then as far as curriculum,I can't imagine having, you
know, very little to work with.
I'm grateful for thefoundations of what I have in
front of me.
If I didn't, I think I would goto my history and my science
standards and think about thosetopical themes that students are
supposed to be practicing,which often I think in this day
(35:59):
and age, or at least in the lastdecade, have kind of taken a
backseat to literary and youknow, math topics.
Bring those back to theforefront.
And, you know, whateverstudents are working on, let's
say they're doing like, okay,they're supposed to be working
on understanding differenthabitats.
Let me pull some really goodliterature.
We can find things, even freethings, or going to your library
or whatever, your your schoollibrarian, and finding really
(36:20):
good, rich text that studentscan read based on those topics.
Um, I think that's that's agreat starting point.
I'm sure there's more outthere.
Maybe you guys are aware ofother ideas that you know
teachers could have, but I feellike that's where I would be
going is kind of building theselike thematic topical units
based on science and socialstudies themes.
Melissa (36:42):
Yeah, I think that's a really good suggestion,
especially for you know thelower grade levels where you,
you know, I'm assuming youprobably do teach science and
social studies as well.
Um, so it's a that's a greatway to get that in, um, to get
those topics in.
I think we would also probablysuggest the Knowledge Matters
campaign.
Um they have suggestions forknowledge building curricula.
(37:03):
Um, and some of them are freeresources.
So, you know, even if yourschool's not adopting any
curriculum right now, you cantake a look there and see what's
there.
Lori (37:13):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And I I I mean uh teachers arethe best uh sharers of resources
too.
So absolutely I would alwayssay ask a teacher friend, you
know.
Melissa (37:23):
100% same.
Well, Megan, is there anythingelse that you want to share
about, you know, this thisshift, this work that you're
doing with your kids withplacing text at the center?
Anything else we didn't mentionalready?
Meghan Hein (37:35):
No, I I mean I'm just so excited to be able to
chat.
This is very surreal because Ifirst learned about it here.
So coming to chat with you guysabout my journey so far is just
kind of like this beautifulfull circle moment for me.
Um, but yeah, I'm come hang outwith me and socials.
I'm always talking about thisand I don't have it all figured
out yet.
And so I'm constantly justsharing where I'm at in the
(37:58):
journey.
And I love just getting to talkto like-minded educators that
are in the same boat of wantingto do better by their students
and kind of learning alongsidejust trying things and yeah.
Melissa (38:09):
Yeah, Megan, your uh your social media handle is
always more to learn, right?
That is correct, yes.
Yeah, and so I I love thatbecause I think we're in a very
similar place where we're alwayssaying that you know we we love
learning more and there'salways more to learn.
So absolutely.
Yeah, we agree.
Lori (38:26):
Yeah, and we will link everything in the show notes.
We'll link your social mediastuff.
Megan will link the text at thecenter article we've been
talking about, the podcastepisode we've been talking
about.
And I'm even thinking we shouldemail this episode to Meredith
and Stu after.
Of course.
No, after it's live.
I know it's not live right now,but Meredith and Stew, we're
gonna send you this episode.
So oh my gosh.
(38:47):
We are so grateful, Megan, thatyou took some time to talk with
us so that we could hear apractitioner lens.
And we're just really excitedto hear from you in the future
and all that you've learned evenmore about placing text at the
center.
We'll have to do a take two.
Meghan Hein (39:01):
Oh, thank you both so much for all you do.
I have learned so much fromyour interviews, and I'm just so
honored to be here with you.
So thank you.
Melissa (39:11):
To stay connected with us, sign up for our email list
at literacypodcast.com.
Join our Facebook group, andfollow us on Instagram and
Twitter.
Lori (39:21):
If this episode resonated with you, take a moment to share
with a teacher friend, or leaveus a five-star rating and
review on Apple Podcasts.
Melissa (39:31):
Just a quick reminder that the views and opinions
expressed by the hosts andguests of the Melissa and Lori
Love Literacy Podcast are notnecessarily the opinions of
Great Minds PBC or itsemployees.
Lori (39:42):
We appreciate you so much, and we're so glad you're here
to learn with us.
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