September 26, 2025 • 43 mins
Episode 236
Catlin Goodrow discusses her role as a literacy coach and interventionist for older students, focusing on assessing student needs, implementing effective interventions, and the logistics of providing support in the classroom. She shares insights on decoding challenges, comprehension strategies, and the importance of engaging students with appropriate texts. She also emphasizes the significance of flexibility in instruction and offers practical tips for teachers to support struggling readers. Check out her new book 'Reading Beyond the Routines,' which provides research-informed strategies for teaching literacy in grades 2 through 6.
Resources
- Reading Beyond the Basics by Catlin Goodrow (book)
- Podcast Episode - Helping Students Read Multisyllabic Words with Devin Kearns (podcast)
- Podcast Episode: Exploring the Research Behind Paired Oral Reading with Jake Downs (podcast)
- Podcast Episode - No More “Strategy of the Week” (podcast)
- Building Background Knowledge Through Reading: Rethinking Text Sets - Sarah Lupo et. al. (research article)
- Rewards by Anita Archer (paid program)
- Word Connections by Jessica Toste (free program)
We answer your questions about teaching reading in The Literacy 50-A Q&A Handbook for Teachers: Real-World Answers to Questions About Reading That Keep You Up at Night.
Grab free resources and episode alerts! Sign up for our email list at literacypodcast.com.
Join our community on Facebook, and follow us on Instagram, Facebook, & Twitter.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Melissa (00:01):
By the time students reach the upper elementary
grades, reading struggles canlook really different from one
kid to the next.
Some still need help withdecoding.
Others can read the words, butfluency or comprehension is the
real challenge.
Lori (00:15):
Figuring out what's getting in the way is the first
step to helping them.
Our guest today, katlyn Goodrow, is a reading specialist
working with third through fifthgraders who are reading below
grade level.
She shares a flexible,responsive approach that gets
results.
Hi teacher friends.
I'm Lori and I'm Melissa.
(00:36):
We are two educators who wantthe best for all kids, and we
know you do too.
Melissa (00:42):
We worked together in Baltimore when the district
adopted a new literacycurriculum.
Lori (00:47):
We realized there was so much more to learn about how to
teach reading and writing.
Melissa (00:53):
Lori, and I can't wait to keep learning with you today.
Hi, katlin, welcome back to thepodcast.
Catlin Goodrow (01:02):
Hi, it's good to be here.
Melissa (01:04):
Can't believe you were actually on episode 15 of the
podcast and we are now going tobe on episode 236.
Can you believe that?
Catlin Goodrow (01:13):
Yes, we've come a long way.
Melissa (01:15):
Yeah, that is wild, but we're excited to have you here
today to talk about what you'redoing now, years later, which is
providing intervention forolder students.
Lori (01:27):
So, Katlyn, can you start us off with just a quick
overview of your current role,just to situate all the teachers
listening.
Who are the students you workwith?
What does your day-to-day looklike?
Tell us all the things.
Catlin Goodrow (01:37):
Great, thank you .
Thanks for having me back.
So currently I am a literacycoach and intervention teacher
at a charter school in Spokane,washington, and I've been
working with third through fifthgraders specifically, and so my
day to day has kind of been myown creation, because there was
(01:59):
no real intervention program.
I started when we went back toschool after the pandemic, and
so my day-to-day is acombination of small group
pullouts where I work onspecific skills with students,
some push in, especially withour fifth graders, and then I do
(02:19):
literacy coaching for thosegrades as well.
So I do all the coach thingsteam meetings, one-on-ones and
we're very lucky to haveinstructional assistants on our
campus.
We have one for every twoclassrooms in grades three
through five, so I also workwith them to provide some
interventions for specificallyfor fluency.
Melissa (02:41):
So exciting and we're going to dig all into everything
you do.
So we have tons of questionsfor you all about this, and I'm
thinking specifically first.
You know, when you get to thirdthrough fifth grade and you
think about students who arereading below grade level, I
would always get just like anumber like oh, they're reading
at the second grade level andI'm like, okay, well, I don't
(03:02):
know what that means, right,like that doesn't help me,
because there's so manydifferent things that that could
be that gets in the way of thembeing successful readers.
So I'm wondering how do youdetermine you know what your
students really actually need,like, are there specific
assessments that you're using tohelp identify those needs?
We want to hear all about that.
Catlin Goodrow (03:23):
Great.
So our school uses the NWEA mapto screen all students,
starting in first grade, andthen I specifically look at kids
who are the 20th percentile orbelow or who've been in
intervention in the past, andwe'll do a full a cadence
(03:44):
battery on them.
So that's a reading fluencyassessment, a retell, and then a
closed test where they have tokind of read and fill in the
blanks and even though it's nottechnically a diagnostic, I
guess I feel like we get a lotof good information from it.
You can understand.
(04:05):
Is the issue fluency?
Are they having a lot ofproblems with accuracy or
they're fluent and accurate?
But maybe that retell isdisordered, they're just telling
random things, and so forstudents where accuracy is the
issue, we'll then go back and dothe core phonics screener.
(04:26):
It's fewer kids, because I workwith older kids.
A lot of their decoding issuesare in multi-syllabic words, but
we do still have a few,especially who come to us from
other campuses, who have somereally basic decoding issues
that they're striving with.
Melissa (04:45):
Yeah, that's great.
So it sounds like I mean youstart with that screener for
everybody, then give thediagnostic for those that need
that more, and then you diveeven deeper.
When you find out specificallywhere they need more help, you
have even more assessments tofind out what they need.
So it sounds like a lot ofassessments, but you said
they're pretty quick.
So I think you probably get alot of information from those
(05:08):
quick assessments.
Catlin Goodrow (05:10):
Yes, the cadence assessment is six minutes of
reading one-on-one with the kidsand then three minutes for the
closed test.
That can be in a group, so itis very quick and then we do
that.
Just a one minute fluency checkon all the students.
Melissa (05:29):
We love that one minute fluency assessment.
Catlin Goodrow (05:31):
All right.
Melissa (05:33):
So I have one more logistical question for you,
which is about when this happens.
That's always the question,right.
When does your not theassessments, but the
interventions?
When do those actually happen?
Within a day, you know peopleare like, oh, we can't pull them
out, but you know, when do theyget pulled out?
When can it happen?
So just some logistics aroundthat, Like, do you push in, Do
(05:54):
you pull out?
Catlin Goodrow (06:02):
When do you make it happen in your school day?
Yeah, so I send out a survey atthe beginning of the year
asking teachers what are sometimes give me as many blocks of
time that would work and I takeall those surveys and it's a
very low-tech process where Ihand write into a daily schedule
like when teachers say I couldpull their kids and from that I
(06:26):
create a schedule that I thengive them to get feedback on and
then we finalize it.
I know when I was a teacherthey just gave me a schedule and
said this is when we're pullingyour kids, and that was really
frustrating.
So it's not perfect, but I dotry and incorporate the
teacher's requests as much aspossible.
(06:47):
That being said, I think nextyear we're going to try and move
to a more uh, what I need, orwin block time, um.
So that will be a whole otherlogistical um thing that we'll
have to figure out, because itwill be so all of like k2 will
have an hour that's there when Ineed time and pull outs would
(07:09):
happen in that time.
And then for my, in the pasttwo years it's just so happened
that a lot of the kids I workwith have been in the same class
in fifth grade, so I pushed ininto those classes, which is a
model I really like, because youcan help anyone, it doesn't
have to be a student who'stechnically assigned to
(07:30):
intervention, and it's beenreally nice to have those extra
people in the classroom with thefifth graders.
Lori (07:37):
Yeah, I'm wondering, katlyn, something that came up
for me as you were talking wasI'm thinking about the students'
needs and how you're makingthese decisions to push in and
pull out, besides logistics.
Right, I'm sure logistics areobviously number one, but do the
students' needs make adifference, and what their you
(07:58):
know struggles are make adifference in whether you decide
to push into a classroom orpull out?
Catlin Goodrow (08:05):
I think the determinant is do they need kind
of a separate curriculum that'sdifferent from what the rest of
the kids in their class aredoing?
And then I would pull them out.
So if they're in fourth gradebut they have first grade
decoding skills, we need to workon that.
And I know because of thecurriculum and the teachers in
my school that they're alsogetting exposed to grade level
(08:27):
instruction in their generalinstructional day.
Usually by the time my kiddosare in fifth grade they've been
with me so they can do theirgeneral classroom instruction
with a little bit of extrasupport.
So I'll pull a small group inthe back of the classroom to
read the text that everyone elseis reading.
(08:50):
I also help them a lot withwriting in that time.
So sometimes it's just sittingdown and let's really get your
writing plan firmed up beforeyou start writing.
So that's kind of how Idistinguish between those.
Lori (09:04):
Okay, that's helpful.
I think that's going to lead meinto the next question.
Is that?
You know, you just mentioned acouple different topics, right?
You mentioned reading, youmentioned writing.
There's different ways toapproach each and the
interventions might lookdifferent.
So what does it look like?
If decoding still is an issuefor our older students and also,
(09:26):
I want to be sure to address,you know, students who are
struggling with multisyllabicwords, how do those
interventions vary?
Catlin Goodrow (09:34):
So with my kiddos, who use, who are
striving with basic decoding aswe kind of see where they are on
the Corphonic screener.
It has ended up.
A lot of kids once they getinto third grade where they're
struggling in foundationalskills is starting with long
vowels.
(09:54):
So I do the UFLY University ofFlorida literacy program with
them.
But I start the program wherethe need is indicated.
So it's designed for kinderfirst and second, but I found it
to be really effective inbuilding decoding and encoding
(10:18):
skills and so we just startwherever they seem to need.
And then for students who theiraccuracy issues are more in
multi-syllabic words, I use aprogram that's called Rewards
from Anita Archer.
That really teaches kids how tobreak down those longer words,
(10:41):
put them back together and alsofocuses on decoding and encoding
.
I've been really influenced bysome work by Mark Seidenberg,
who's a researcher, and he talksabout how we need to take
advantage of kids' statisticallearning or their ability to
(11:03):
like iterate on patterns thatthey learn.
So once I see that kids aredoing that, basically I look for
are you reading now?
A bunch of words with patternsthat haven't been explicitly
taught.
That's a sign to me that theymight not need as much explicit
decoding instruction but I doteach them a routine that's
(11:25):
similar to.
I think you've had Devin Kearnson the show.
It's similar to the routinehe's talked about, where they
identify the vowels, look forparts in the word, say each part
slowly.
Then they say it fast and thinkabout is this a real word, is
this something I've heard beforeand if not, we probably need to
flex the vowels or change someof the emphasis.
Melissa (11:48):
I love that.
I'm curious about the UFLY withthe students that need that and
just, you know, I always thinkI taught sixth graders, you know
, and I always think, like if Iwent back and taught them
something that was designed forK-2, would there be pushback?
Would there be, you know?
Would they say like, oh, thisis, this is for little kids and
not for me?
I'm wondering, since you'reyou're actually doing it, are
(12:09):
you seeing that or are youfinding that they are like this
is what I need, let's do it.
Catlin Goodrow (12:16):
Usually they are pretty receptive to it.
One thing I like about you flyis that the slides are very
plain.
They don't have cute charactersor anything like that, and the
little decodable stories thatthey have are actually really
appropriate for older kids.
They're about kidsindependently having fun so
(12:36):
riding bikes and going to thestore and camping and hiking so
they're not stories that feelbabyish.
I've maybe had a couple of kidswho are maybe a little resistant
, but one of the things that isjust I've learned from my years
in this role is that with olderkids you can be pretty honest
(13:00):
about where they are.
Like I'll say, like about wherethey are, I'll say these are
some first grade words thatwe're working on.
But that sets the foundationfor us to be able to say at the
end of the year wow, we startedwith first grade words, now
(13:21):
you're reading third grade texts, so you've grown two years in
this one school year.
Look at that.
So with that framing, I feltthat kids are pretty receptive
to whatever the instructionneeds to be to get them where
they want to be.
Melissa (13:32):
That's what I was thinking that success.
When they find that they'regrowing and having that success,
I would think that would reallymotivate them and get over the
oh, this is a K2 thing.
Lori (13:47):
Yeah, and like something that I'm thinking about too, is
that just from the standpoint ofhonesty with the kids or with
the students?
I've talked about Dr Becky onthis podcast before.
Melissa is going to laugh, butshe's a clinical psychologist
and she talks about a lot ofparenting stuff, but she always
says that information doesn'tscare kids and that to me, like
(14:10):
what you're doing is reallyhonoring that that like lack of
information actually scares kids, cause then they're kind of
left alone, being like, well, Idon't, I don't know how to read
fifth grade words right now, andwhat you know, I'm sitting here
looking at fifth grade wordsand I don't know how to read
them, so you're like juststraight leveling with them.
Hey, these are words, they'rebuilding a foundation, they're
going to help us read otherwords that you're going to get
(14:32):
to and I'm going to help youthere too.
But here's the deal, and Idon't think there's anything
more honoring of a student thanthat or of a person, right?
So I really appreciate yousharing that.
I have one quick question aboutthe UFLY.
You said that you start wherestudents need, do you mean in
the scope and sequence?
Is that an accurate?
Catlin Goodrow (14:53):
So there's a unit where we're doing vowel
blank E long vowel spelling.
So if that's kind of where theytapped out in the core phonics
screen, that's where we'll startin UFLY.
Melissa (15:13):
All right.
So then I'm sure you have awhole other group of students,
right.
You have your students who aredecoders.
So they're fine with decoding,probably even multisyllabic
words, but then maybe they'renot fluent readers.
Or maybe they are fluentreaders and they're just still
not understanding.
We get that question a lot Likewhat do we do then if students
(15:34):
are reading just fine, butthey're still not understanding
what they read?
So what do you do for thesestudents?
Catlin Goodrow (15:41):
Yeah, and I think that question has been
really motivating for me to tryand figure out, because I think
guidance is not very strong inthat area and I've heard, you
know, people ask that questionwhat do I do?
And people will say, well, itprobably actually is a decoding
issue, and we have to be finesaying that it isn't always
(16:06):
about decoding.
So with those students and evensome who are still striving
with decoding, I doknowledge-based units with them
and I've sort of just designedthese around things that I think
are interesting, that the kidsthink are interesting, these
(16:26):
around things that I think areinteresting, that the kids think
are interesting.
Sometimes I ask them you knowwe have three options which one
of these would you choose?
I've also designed some aroundnovels, and so those are just
opportunities to give them sometools to slow down a bit and to
really get in the habit, withthe support of an adult, of
(16:48):
thinking while they're reading.
One of the things that I'venoticed with a lot of my
students, where comprehension isreally where we need to focus,
they'll, if you ask them aquestion about the text, they'll
kind of just say the last thingthat they read, and so we
(17:13):
really put in place strategiesthat are just about hold on.
Take a moment to think.
Let's go back, and so I mean,none of it is rocket science,
but it's a lot of stuff that,like, actually point at the
words.
Show me the words that you'reusing to answer this question,
(17:33):
then they'll go oh, okay, yeah,so those words didn't answer the
question.
Let's go back and reread.
We do a lot of paragraphshrinking or getting the gist,
which I know people have talkedabout on your show before but
that's just identifying what'smost important in a paragraph
and then who or who.
So who or what is most important, and then what's important
about the who or what, whichsounds really simple, but I
(17:57):
can't tell you the number ofkids who just identifying the
topic of a paragraph is reallychallenging.
So they want to latch on towhat's most interesting to them.
So we just work on a lot ofthese skills.
And then this past year I had aspecific group that had so many
strengths as readers but justlike weren't doing well on sort
(18:19):
of like formal assessments, andso that group we worked on
question answer relationships,so that's identifying whether
the question I'm asked is can Ianswer it in the text, like the
words, are there the wholeanswers in the text or it's in
my head?
I have to make an inference,and that was kind of an
experiment.
We specifically just worked onanswering questions and several
(18:43):
of those kids made a ton ofgrowth, and so I think that's
something they'll continue towork with in the future.
Melissa (18:53):
You made me think, while you're talking about
slowing down which is reallyinteresting because I'm, you
know I also asked about fluency,which you know we talked to Dan
Hasbrook about, who says it'snot about reading fast, but it
is about reading automatically,right?
So you do want it to be at acertain rate.
So it's funny that, like inkids' minds, it's like at some
point it's like I'm trying toread faster right, they want me
to read faster but then it'salso like slow down, so you can
like really think about whatyou're you're reading.
(19:15):
So it's like finding that rightbalance of, you know, reading
at that right rate, so you, youknow, aren't laboring over every
word, but also slowing down tomake sense of what you're
reading, and that's a finebalance for them.
Catlin Goodrow (19:30):
Yeah, well, usually in groups that are
working on fluency andcomprehension, we'll start with
like two or three minutes offluency work where they're doing
repeated readings of the samepassage, and then we shift gears
.
But even in the fluency I willreally try and listen in and
(19:52):
give them really specificfeedback.
So I'll say, on this part youslowed down because there was a
word you needed to figure outand then you reread the sentence
, just like we've talked about,and so, even though you read
less words today than you didyesterday, it was because you
specifically slowed down at thisone part.
Melissa (20:14):
And it was purposeful to make sense of what they were
reading.
Catlin Goodrow (20:17):
Yeah, and so I think they need that really
specific feedback where you'reable to actually point to the
thing that they did, the wordthat they said, and that just
involves really carefullistening to what they're doing
as they read.
Lori (20:33):
All right.
So, katlyn, you're talkingabout these knowledge-based
units, right?
And you mentioned a before,during and after framework.
Can you share what this lookslike in practice?
I know everybody is like tellme, I want to replicate this
framework.
Catlin Goodrow (20:47):
So after I preview, I set a purpose for
reading, and one of the thingsthat has changed in my practice
is something that I learned froma Tim Shanahan blog Tim
Shanahan being one of thegreatest interpreters of
research into practical adviceand he talked about how your
purpose for reading should begeneral enough that students
(21:11):
aren't only focusing on oneaspect of the text.
So it could be something assimple as let's read to find out
more about the uniqueadaptations that birds have, or
let's read to find out whathappens to Beatrice and her
companions today.
So just a simple purpose, andthat's when we jump into the
(21:34):
during reading.
And in the during reading phasewe really have two routines.
One is the multi-syllabicdecoding routine that I talked
about earlier, and the other isthe paragraph shrinking or the
get the gist.
I tend to call it generatinggist statements or getting the
gist because I found, especiallyin texts for, say, third
(21:57):
graders, a lot of times theparagraph is not the right unit
to shrink.
It will have sometimes solittle information in it that
shrinking it is just retellingthe entire thing.
Lori (22:09):
So thank you for saying that.
I appreciate it.
As a former second and thirdgrade teacher, You're like.
Well, this paragraph was asentence there's not really much
to like.
Catlin Goodrow (22:19):
Exactly so.
I'll just block out for thekids what unit they should stop
on and shrink or get the gist of, and so kind of the purpose of
during reading is I want them togenerate just a general
understanding of the text, andthen after reading routines are
(22:42):
really about digging deeper.
One of my favorite afterreading routines is to have the
students generate questions.
They'll either jot them down asthey read or after they read.
They'll just note theirquestions and then we discuss
those questions and I try not tobe really like is this a good
(23:05):
question or not a good question,and really let them roll with
whatever they come up with,because I found that we as
adults don't always know whatare the questions that they are
going to have.
And so, like, one of my favoriteexamples was this picture of an
owl swooping down and there wasa mouse on the ground that had
(23:26):
like a little food, and one ofthe kids questions was why is
the owl giving the mouseside-eye?
And I was like what?
But I just went with it and itturned out that it really
illuminated for one of the otherkids what was going on, because
he hadn't realized that themouse was going to be the food.
(23:46):
And so by her question that toan adult you're like is this a
good question?
It actually helped himunderstand in a way that one of
my questions probably would nothave.
Melissa (23:57):
Yeah, and I was gonna say that's like the authentic
curiosity and also like makingmeaning right.
They're just they're trying tomake meaning of it.
So if it's where they're stuckand they have a question, you
don't want to squash that and,you know, have them afraid to
ask those questions.
So I'm curious about for theseknowledge-based units, I mean
(24:18):
that's, that's a big job for youto like create these
knowledge-based units.
I'm wondering, like, where doyou choose, like how do you
choose which texts and whichtopics to use for for your
interventions?
Catlin Goodrow (24:28):
Yeah, so I really had no resources when I
first started in this job.
Lori (24:36):
Sounds familiar to a lot of teachers.
Yes, so I was thinking.
Every teacher right now is likego on, go on.
Catlin Goodrow (24:42):
we're listening, so I've used a lot of the free
resources that are out there,like ReadWorks, and I have now,
over time and the generosity ofmy principal, gotten some text
sets.
So, say, the unit that the owlquestion came from.
It's a unit about birds and sothe target text, which is an
(25:09):
idea from Sarah Lupo and her use, so the target text we use for
that is called Spit Nests, pukePower and Other Brilliant Bird
Adaptations by Laura Perdue.
Melissa (25:25):
Say that one again.
That's such a great title.
Catlin Goodrow (25:28):
It's called Spit Nests, puke Power and Other
Brilliant Bird Adaptations.
Just the title you're like.
This is something kids want toread.
There actually are vulturesthat have acidic puke that they
puke on their enemies.
So kids love that, and so howcould they not?
How could they not?
And so that's the target texts.
(25:50):
It's a little more complex, ittalks about adaptations, and so
I then want to build up someunderstandings and vocabulary so
that we can actually read thattext.
So I just start with somegeneral ReadWorks articles or
free articles that are aboutwhat do birds have in common,
(26:11):
what are their characteristics?
So we read these articles andsort of build that understanding
what makes a bird a bird, whatdo birds have in common?
And then when we read spitnests, we're talking about well
then, what makes birds different?
How are they adapted to theirspecific environment?
And then we end with a writingtask where they have to draw a
(26:36):
specific environment and designa bird that is adapted to that
environment.
So it's also building thatschema of what is an adaptation
and how do adaptations helpthose animals survive.
Lori (26:52):
And when you're choosing these, what's happening in the
other classes?
Are you selecting these topicsbecause you know students have
learned about it?
Are you selecting these topicsbecause you know students will
learn about it?
Maybe neither of those are true.
Just an authentic question.
Yes, it really depends.
Catlin Goodrow (27:09):
So in fourth grade one of the books that I've
read with students is theBeatrice Prophecy by Kate
DiCamillo.
Lori (27:21):
I say DiCamillo in my head , but both are probably right.
It's an in-your-head last name.
Catlin Goodrow (27:27):
And so that is set in sort of like a nameless
medieval type kingdom and abunch of it happens in a
monastery.
And so my students in fourthgrade in the USKLA they do a
middle ages unit so they havesome of that background
knowledge before they come tothe text.
(27:49):
Some of the other ones are justthings that kids are interested
in.
With some of my more reluctant,older readers I'll say, like
here are three topics that areinteresting, like UFOs, dinosaur
fossils and something else, andhave them kind of do a rank
choice vote.
(28:10):
Those are harder because I thenhave to find the stuff that
they're interested in.
But I have found.
You know, now there's such aplethora of websites with texts
that it usually comes togetherpretty easily.
Lori (28:25):
All right, I'm wondering if we can walk through a
student's path.
So just thinking about an olderstudent who you might be
working with, maybe a fourthgrader, just because it's, you
know, in the middle, someone, akiddo who entered your
intervention, let's say, farbelow grade level, right?
So what do you do first andlike, how does that instruction
evolve over the course of theirtime with you as their
(28:49):
intervention teacher?
Catlin Goodrow (28:52):
Yeah, as their intervention teacher.
Yeah, so I'm specificallythinking of one student who came
to us, had not been at ourschool, came to us in fourth
grade and when I started theAcadians, which is fourth grade
text she really struggled rightaway and we actually went back
(29:14):
to like a first grade word listand then a first grade text and
so I talked to her a little bitabout what her path had been and
she was very honest about likefeeling like she'd been failed
by her previous school and shealso had a really tremendous
(29:34):
asset, which is that she hashigh oral vocabulary, lots of
verbal strengths, so that wassomething that we could build on
.
So she was actually in a groupof a few other students who also
hadn't been at our campus.
Because we are one of the onlyschools of choice in our area,
(29:55):
we get a lot of kids who theyand their parents just feel like
the other school wasn't workingfor them.
So a lot of kids who come toour campus at that age might be
striving readers, and so westarted with YouFly and there
was a small group with her thathad similar skills fly and there
(30:16):
was a small group with her thathad similar skills and after a
little while I realized thatthey were ready to move faster.
So we actually were doing liketwo lessons combined.
So they could, because they hadall these assets in their oral
language, because they wereolder.
They just their comprehensionand attention are better or
stronger than maybe a little onewould be.
(30:37):
We were able to pick upconcepts faster, and after about
six months of that we movedinto the knowledge building and
fluency unit.
So they actually did that birdunit that I was just talking
about.
They actually did that birdunit that I was just talking
about.
And then this year I would saythis student was still striving
(30:59):
with decoding, but now it iswith more of the multisyllabic
words.
And one thing that is a benefitwith kids who have strong oral
language and vocabulary is thateven if they decode a longer
word incorrectly, they're veryquickly able to say like oh,
that's this word, so this is,that's where that's the student
(31:19):
is.
And so I pushed in in fifthgrade so when, when it was time
to read text, we'd often read ina small group.
Because of her strong languageskills, she's a very creative
writer, so just needed some helpwith spelling and organizing
(31:40):
ideas.
But so after those two years.
She passed her state test atthe end of this year, and so
she'll definitely still needsome support in middle school.
But I feel strong about whereshe's going and the middle
(32:02):
school is in our building aswell, so I can check in.
Lori (32:06):
Oh, that's so good to hear .
We love a success story.
Catlin Goodrow (32:10):
Yes, and I think that I know some schools are
very much like.
We use this for tier two and weuse this for tier three, and I
know why they have those kind ofhard boundaries.
I think, though, like I doubt,that if we just like done you,
(32:30):
fly all year long exactly aswritten, if the student would
have gotten where she needed tobe, would have gotten where she
needed to be, and so having theflexibility to accelerate when
it's time has been reallyimportant to helping kids meet
their goals.
Melissa (32:48):
Yeah, I think that's so important and I love what you
brought up earlier with MarkSeidenberg too of, like you know
, when you start seeing themgoing and getting more than what
you're even teaching them, thendon't hold them back.
You don't need to keep themwhere they are, like let's get
them going as fast as they can,especially if they're one, two,
three grade levels below.
We want to get them where theyneed to be as fast as we can.
Catlin Goodrow (33:13):
And you know, if we find out like, oh, we need
to really strengthen our likevowel teams, we can do that, go
back and do that and then keepaccelerating.
Melissa (33:25):
Right, yeah, absolutely , and I'm glad you brought up
vocabulary.
I know we didn't mention thatearlier, which I'm shocked we
didn't mention it, but, like yousaid, she had really great
vocabulary.
But I'm assuming if you found astudent did not have the strong
oral vocabulary like she did,that is probably somewhere you
would find a place to put thatin as well, I'm guessing.
Catlin Goodrow (33:46):
Yes, and I think that the rewards program that I
use and I know there's asimilar free program, Word
Connections that these decodingprograms for older students
usually include a vocabularycomponent, so you're learning
prefixes and suffixes and roots,but you're also learning what
they mean, and so I think thoseprograms can be really helpful
(34:11):
in that area Makes sense.
Melissa (34:14):
So I am curious because our audience is mostly teachers
, right?
So a lot of them are thirdthrough fifth grade teachers and
probably thinking like theseare my students, they're sitting
in my class, I have to teachthem though the fourth grade
texts and they do still needwhat Catlin's giving them over
here.
Do you have any suggestions forthe teachers in the classroom
(34:35):
for students that still havethese decoding needs or the
multisyllabic decoding orfluency or vocabulary, if they
have those needs still?
I know that's a big question,but just some ideas for teachers
for how they can sort of helpthem even within the grade level
classroom.
Catlin Goodrow (34:53):
Yeah.
So I think that one thing thatI would say is be sure to have
opportunities to listen to kidsread so that you'll know exactly
what they need.
I think that you know we movedaway from running records in the
(35:14):
science of reading land, andthe problem with running records
wasn't listening to kids read,it was you know that they were
time consuming and that thelevels were not necessarily
accurate.
But listening to kids read isstill a great thing and taking
some kind of record or noteswhile they're reading is also
still a good thing, and so Ithink listening to those kids
(35:39):
read is really important.
And then I really recommend forthe teachers that I coach who
are teaching full classrooms youknow 24 kids or so to, during
times when kids are readingchallenging texts, to think
about intentionally how they'regoing to read, intentionally how
(36:01):
they're going to read.
So you might have five or sixkids who can read independently
on their own, silently.
You might have, you know, athird of the class who can do
paired reading, and I knowyou've had episodes on paired
reading that talk about how youwant a slightly stronger reader
with a reader who's morestriving, but you don't want a
(36:22):
vast difference between thosestudents.
So the sort of lead reader orthe coach can support the
striving reader but they'rereading together and then pull
your kids who are the moststriving and you can read with
them at a small table, maybe dochoral reading or do closed
reading, where you read but thenyou drop out and they read the
(36:44):
next word.
I usually vary, read aloud withthe kids reading some choral
reading.
My students love to readindividually, which I know not
everyone does and that can bereally anxiety producing for
some kids.
So cautiously, you know, but mykids ask too, so I do let them
(37:05):
sometimes, and so I would sayjust being really intentional
about grouping and then usingthose before, during and after
routines as scaffolds is reallyimportant.
Melissa (37:18):
Those are great suggestions and totally doable
in a classroom.
Thank you for those.
Catlin Goodrow (37:24):
Yeah.
Lori (37:24):
All right, so I get to do the best part of our podcast
today.
Katlyn wrote a book, so ifyou're so interested in all the
things that she shared today andyou want to hear more, you have
to get her book.
Katlyn, I have to tell you thisbook is like your cover of your
book is one of my favoritecovers I've ever seen.
It's so whimsical and sweet.
I love it.
(37:45):
But I'll let you tell about thebook so everybody can hear all
your amazing tips for reachingolder readers.
Catlin Goodrow (37:52):
Yes, so it's called Reading Beyond the Basics
Key Routines for Engaging,research-informed Instruction in
Grades 2 through 6.
So it's really targeted at thereaders we've been talking about
, and I love the cover as well.
And one of the reasons why Ichose the whimsical cover that I
did is I feel like a lot oftimes in the science of reading
(38:15):
space we're not as whimsical asback in the balanced reading
days, we're not as focused onthe fun and the love of reading.
And while everything in thebook is based on research, I
also wanted to just tell storiesabout kids reading and enjoying
(38:35):
books and about the time thatI've spent with kids just loving
books.
So there's tons of stories likethe one about the owl who gives
the mouse side eye in the bookas well.
And then the routines that Italk about in the book or today
are also in the book.
So all of those before, duringand after reading routines are
(38:58):
spelled out and I'll take youthrough from.
How do you introduce it, how doyou go through the gradual
release of responsibility?
And then one of the things thatwas really important to me in
writing the book was justknowing the varied situations
that teachers are in.
So some teachers get to plan awhole unit on their own, choose
(39:22):
the texts, but some teachersdon't, lots of teachers don't.
You have a core reading programthat you're supposed to follow,
and so one thing I wanted to dois provide guidance in how to
use the routine with your coreprogram, like what to look for
in the sidebars in your programthat can help you pick the words
(39:43):
to preview, or how do you thinkabout analyzing the text that
you have to teach versus onethat you've picked and you know
really well already.
And so that was important to me, because I think, especially a
lot of times when you come outof teacher school, you've like
(40:03):
learned to write all theselessons from scratch and you're
ready to go and no one hastalked to you about well how do
you execute on a lesson thatsomeone else wrote, and so that
was an important part of thebook for me.
Lori (40:17):
Such important stuff for teachers to know.
So thank you for writing itAgain.
It's called Reading Beyond theBasics.
It's out on October 9th.
You can pre-order on Amazon now, of course, but I also want to
note that I've listed everythingin the show notes and linked
them, everything that you'veshared today.
So you talked about a podcastor one of our podcast episodes
with Devin Kearns.
I linked another podcastepisode that spoke to one thing
(40:41):
that you talked about but didn'tsay the episode.
Another article by Sarah LupoBuilding Background Knowledge
Through Reading Rethinking TextSets.
The Rewards Program by AnitaArcher that is a paid program.
It looks like Just scoutingaround online.
And then Word Connections byJessica Toast.
That is a free program.
So if you are listening rightnow, you have a ton of resources
(41:02):
in the show notes.
Go click and go find out more.
Can we add our partner reading?
Oh yeah, good call, I knew, see, I was like busy linking.
Thank you, you got so many, butI'll add that one.
I got a lot.
Thank you, that's such a goodepisode.
Which one is that With JakeDowns?
Right, jake Downs sport, sport,yes, synchronized paired oral
(41:25):
reading.
Wait, synchronized paired oralreading.
Techniques.
I always want to say teambecause it's sport, but I know
that's not right.
So, jake, if you're listening.
We'll have to do another onewith another acronym.
Catlin Goodrow (41:42):
That's one of those episodes that I like to
give people that I coach,because I'm like here's someone
else saying this and you'llprobably listen, and it's a
researcher.
Lori (41:51):
It's a really fun episode.
Jake makes it so easy tounderstand.
Thank you for calling that oneout too.
No problem.
Ah, so many good resources.
Thank you so much for beinghere we can't thank you enough.
Catlin Goodrow (42:02):
Yes, thanks for having me on again.
It's so exciting to be backafter these many years and
hundreds of episodes later.
Hundreds of episodes.
Melissa (42:15):
To stay connected with us, sign up for our email list
at literacypodcastcom, join ourFacebook group and follow us on
Instagram and Twitter.
Lori (42:30):
If this episode resonated with you, take a moment to share
with a teacher friend or leaveus a five-star rating and review
on Apple Podcasts.
Melissa (42:35):
Just a quick reminder that the views and opinions
expressed by the hosts andguests of the Melissa and Lori
Love Literacy podcast are notnecessarily the opinions of
Great Minds PBC or its employees, we appreciate you so much and
we're so glad you're here tolearn with us.
Lori (42:51):
Thank you.
By the time students reach the upper elementary
grades, reading struggles canlook really different from one
kid to the next.
Some still need help withdecoding.
Others can read the words, butfluency or comprehension is the
real challenge.
Lori (00:15):
Figuring out what's getting in the way is the first
step to helping them.
Our guest today, katlyn Goodrow, is a reading specialist
working with third through fifthgraders who are reading below
grade level.
She shares a flexible,responsive approach that gets
results.
Hi teacher friends.
I'm Lori and I'm Melissa.
(00:36):
We are two educators who wantthe best for all kids, and we
know you do too.
Melissa (00:42):
We worked together in Baltimore when the district
adopted a new literacycurriculum.
Lori (00:47):
We realized there was so much more to learn about how to
teach reading and writing.
Melissa (00:53):
Lori, and I can't wait to keep learning with you today.
Hi, katlin, welcome back to thepodcast.
Catlin Goodrow (01:02):
Hi, it's good to be here.
Melissa (01:04):
Can't believe you were actually on episode 15 of the
podcast and we are now going tobe on episode 236.
Can you believe that?
Catlin Goodrow (01:13):
Yes, we've come a long way.
Melissa (01:15):
Yeah, that is wild, but we're excited to have you here
today to talk about what you'redoing now, years later, which is
providing intervention forolder students.
Lori (01:27):
So, Katlyn, can you start us off with just a quick
overview of your current role,just to situate all the teachers
listening.
Who are the students you workwith?
What does your day-to-day looklike?
Tell us all the things.
Catlin Goodrow (01:37):
Great, thank you .
Thanks for having me back.
So currently I am a literacycoach and intervention teacher
at a charter school in Spokane,washington, and I've been
working with third through fifthgraders specifically, and so my
day to day has kind of been myown creation, because there was
(01:59):
no real intervention program.
I started when we went back toschool after the pandemic, and
so my day-to-day is acombination of small group
pullouts where I work onspecific skills with students,
some push in, especially withour fifth graders, and then I do
(02:19):
literacy coaching for thosegrades as well.
So I do all the coach thingsteam meetings, one-on-ones and
we're very lucky to haveinstructional assistants on our
campus.
We have one for every twoclassrooms in grades three
through five, so I also workwith them to provide some
interventions for specificallyfor fluency.
Melissa (02:41):
So exciting and we're going to dig all into everything
you do.
So we have tons of questionsfor you all about this, and I'm
thinking specifically first.
You know, when you get to thirdthrough fifth grade and you
think about students who arereading below grade level, I
would always get just like anumber like oh, they're reading
at the second grade level andI'm like, okay, well, I don't
(03:02):
know what that means, right,like that doesn't help me,
because there's so manydifferent things that that could
be that gets in the way of thembeing successful readers.
So I'm wondering how do youdetermine you know what your
students really actually need,like, are there specific
assessments that you're using tohelp identify those needs?
We want to hear all about that.
Catlin Goodrow (03:23):
Great.
So our school uses the NWEA mapto screen all students,
starting in first grade, andthen I specifically look at kids
who are the 20th percentile orbelow or who've been in
intervention in the past, andwe'll do a full a cadence
(03:44):
battery on them.
So that's a reading fluencyassessment, a retell, and then a
closed test where they have tokind of read and fill in the
blanks and even though it's nottechnically a diagnostic, I
guess I feel like we get a lotof good information from it.
You can understand.
(04:05):
Is the issue fluency?
Are they having a lot ofproblems with accuracy or
they're fluent and accurate?
But maybe that retell isdisordered, they're just telling
random things, and so forstudents where accuracy is the
issue, we'll then go back and dothe core phonics screener.
(04:26):
It's fewer kids, because I workwith older kids.
A lot of their decoding issuesare in multi-syllabic words, but
we do still have a few,especially who come to us from
other campuses, who have somereally basic decoding issues
that they're striving with.
Melissa (04:45):
Yeah, that's great.
So it sounds like I mean youstart with that screener for
everybody, then give thediagnostic for those that need
that more, and then you diveeven deeper.
When you find out specificallywhere they need more help, you
have even more assessments tofind out what they need.
So it sounds like a lot ofassessments, but you said
they're pretty quick.
So I think you probably get alot of information from those
(05:08):
quick assessments.
Catlin Goodrow (05:10):
Yes, the cadence assessment is six minutes of
reading one-on-one with the kidsand then three minutes for the
closed test.
That can be in a group, so itis very quick and then we do
that.
Just a one minute fluency checkon all the students.
Melissa (05:29):
We love that one minute fluency assessment.
Catlin Goodrow (05:31):
All right.
Melissa (05:33):
So I have one more logistical question for you,
which is about when this happens.
That's always the question,right.
When does your not theassessments, but the
interventions?
When do those actually happen?
Within a day, you know peopleare like, oh, we can't pull them
out, but you know, when do theyget pulled out?
When can it happen?
So just some logistics aroundthat, Like, do you push in, Do
(05:54):
you pull out?
Catlin Goodrow (06:02):
When do you make it happen in your school day?
Yeah, so I send out a survey atthe beginning of the year
asking teachers what are sometimes give me as many blocks of
time that would work and I takeall those surveys and it's a
very low-tech process where Ihand write into a daily schedule
like when teachers say I couldpull their kids and from that I
(06:26):
create a schedule that I thengive them to get feedback on and
then we finalize it.
I know when I was a teacherthey just gave me a schedule and
said this is when we're pullingyour kids, and that was really
frustrating.
So it's not perfect, but I dotry and incorporate the
teacher's requests as much aspossible.
(06:47):
That being said, I think nextyear we're going to try and move
to a more uh, what I need, orwin block time, um.
So that will be a whole otherlogistical um thing that we'll
have to figure out, because itwill be so all of like k2 will
have an hour that's there when Ineed time and pull outs would
(07:09):
happen in that time.
And then for my, in the pasttwo years it's just so happened
that a lot of the kids I workwith have been in the same class
in fifth grade, so I pushed ininto those classes, which is a
model I really like, because youcan help anyone, it doesn't
have to be a student who'stechnically assigned to
(07:30):
intervention, and it's beenreally nice to have those extra
people in the classroom with thefifth graders.
Lori (07:37):
Yeah, I'm wondering, katlyn, something that came up
for me as you were talking wasI'm thinking about the students'
needs and how you're makingthese decisions to push in and
pull out, besides logistics.
Right, I'm sure logistics areobviously number one, but do the
students' needs make adifference, and what their you
(07:58):
know struggles are make adifference in whether you decide
to push into a classroom orpull out?
Catlin Goodrow (08:05):
I think the determinant is do they need kind
of a separate curriculum that'sdifferent from what the rest of
the kids in their class aredoing?
And then I would pull them out.
So if they're in fourth gradebut they have first grade
decoding skills, we need to workon that.
And I know because of thecurriculum and the teachers in
my school that they're alsogetting exposed to grade level
(08:27):
instruction in their generalinstructional day.
Usually by the time my kiddosare in fifth grade they've been
with me so they can do theirgeneral classroom instruction
with a little bit of extrasupport.
So I'll pull a small group inthe back of the classroom to
read the text that everyone elseis reading.
(08:50):
I also help them a lot withwriting in that time.
So sometimes it's just sittingdown and let's really get your
writing plan firmed up beforeyou start writing.
So that's kind of how Idistinguish between those.
Lori (09:04):
Okay, that's helpful.
I think that's going to lead meinto the next question.
Is that?
You know, you just mentioned acouple different topics, right?
You mentioned reading, youmentioned writing.
There's different ways toapproach each and the
interventions might lookdifferent.
So what does it look like?
If decoding still is an issuefor our older students and also,
(09:26):
I want to be sure to address,you know, students who are
struggling with multisyllabicwords, how do those
interventions vary?
Catlin Goodrow (09:34):
So with my kiddos, who use, who are
striving with basic decoding aswe kind of see where they are on
the Corphonic screener.
It has ended up.
A lot of kids once they getinto third grade where they're
struggling in foundationalskills is starting with long
vowels.
(09:54):
So I do the UFLY University ofFlorida literacy program with
them.
But I start the program wherethe need is indicated.
So it's designed for kinderfirst and second, but I found it
to be really effective inbuilding decoding and encoding
(10:18):
skills and so we just startwherever they seem to need.
And then for students who theiraccuracy issues are more in
multi-syllabic words, I use aprogram that's called Rewards
from Anita Archer.
That really teaches kids how tobreak down those longer words,
(10:41):
put them back together and alsofocuses on decoding and encoding
.
I've been really influenced bysome work by Mark Seidenberg,
who's a researcher, and he talksabout how we need to take
advantage of kids' statisticallearning or their ability to
(11:03):
like iterate on patterns thatthey learn.
So once I see that kids aredoing that, basically I look for
are you reading now?
A bunch of words with patternsthat haven't been explicitly
taught.
That's a sign to me that theymight not need as much explicit
decoding instruction but I doteach them a routine that's
(11:25):
similar to.
I think you've had Devin Kearnson the show.
It's similar to the routinehe's talked about, where they
identify the vowels, look forparts in the word, say each part
slowly.
Then they say it fast and thinkabout is this a real word, is
this something I've heard beforeand if not, we probably need to
flex the vowels or change someof the emphasis.
Melissa (11:48):
I love that.
I'm curious about the UFLY withthe students that need that and
just, you know, I always thinkI taught sixth graders, you know
, and I always think, like if Iwent back and taught them
something that was designed forK-2, would there be pushback?
Would there be, you know?
Would they say like, oh, thisis, this is for little kids and
not for me?
I'm wondering, since you'reyou're actually doing it, are
(12:09):
you seeing that or are youfinding that they are like this
is what I need, let's do it.
Catlin Goodrow (12:16):
Usually they are pretty receptive to it.
One thing I like about you flyis that the slides are very
plain.
They don't have cute charactersor anything like that, and the
little decodable stories thatthey have are actually really
appropriate for older kids.
They're about kidsindependently having fun so
(12:36):
riding bikes and going to thestore and camping and hiking so
they're not stories that feelbabyish.
I've maybe had a couple of kidswho are maybe a little resistant
, but one of the things that isjust I've learned from my years
in this role is that with olderkids you can be pretty honest
(13:00):
about where they are.
Like I'll say, like about wherethey are, I'll say these are
some first grade words thatwe're working on.
But that sets the foundationfor us to be able to say at the
end of the year wow, we startedwith first grade words, now
(13:21):
you're reading third grade texts, so you've grown two years in
this one school year.
Look at that.
So with that framing, I feltthat kids are pretty receptive
to whatever the instructionneeds to be to get them where
they want to be.
Melissa (13:32):
That's what I was thinking that success.
When they find that they'regrowing and having that success,
I would think that would reallymotivate them and get over the
oh, this is a K2 thing.
Lori (13:47):
Yeah, and like something that I'm thinking about too, is
that just from the standpoint ofhonesty with the kids or with
the students?
I've talked about Dr Becky onthis podcast before.
Melissa is going to laugh, butshe's a clinical psychologist
and she talks about a lot ofparenting stuff, but she always
says that information doesn'tscare kids and that to me, like
(14:10):
what you're doing is reallyhonoring that that like lack of
information actually scares kids, cause then they're kind of
left alone, being like, well, Idon't, I don't know how to read
fifth grade words right now, andwhat you know, I'm sitting here
looking at fifth grade wordsand I don't know how to read
them, so you're like juststraight leveling with them.
Hey, these are words, they'rebuilding a foundation, they're
going to help us read otherwords that you're going to get
(14:32):
to and I'm going to help youthere too.
But here's the deal, and Idon't think there's anything
more honoring of a student thanthat or of a person, right?
So I really appreciate yousharing that.
I have one quick question aboutthe UFLY.
You said that you start wherestudents need, do you mean in
the scope and sequence?
Is that an accurate?
Catlin Goodrow (14:53):
So there's a unit where we're doing vowel
blank E long vowel spelling.
So if that's kind of where theytapped out in the core phonics
screen, that's where we'll startin UFLY.
Melissa (15:13):
All right.
So then I'm sure you have awhole other group of students,
right.
You have your students who aredecoders.
So they're fine with decoding,probably even multisyllabic
words, but then maybe they'renot fluent readers.
Or maybe they are fluentreaders and they're just still
not understanding.
We get that question a lot Likewhat do we do then if students
(15:34):
are reading just fine, butthey're still not understanding
what they read?
So what do you do for thesestudents?
Catlin Goodrow (15:41):
Yeah, and I think that question has been
really motivating for me to tryand figure out, because I think
guidance is not very strong inthat area and I've heard, you
know, people ask that questionwhat do I do?
And people will say, well, itprobably actually is a decoding
issue, and we have to be finesaying that it isn't always
(16:06):
about decoding.
So with those students and evensome who are still striving
with decoding, I doknowledge-based units with them
and I've sort of just designedthese around things that I think
are interesting, that the kidsthink are interesting, these
(16:26):
around things that I think areinteresting, that the kids think
are interesting.
Sometimes I ask them you knowwe have three options which one
of these would you choose?
I've also designed some aroundnovels, and so those are just
opportunities to give them sometools to slow down a bit and to
really get in the habit, withthe support of an adult, of
(16:48):
thinking while they're reading.
One of the things that I'venoticed with a lot of my
students, where comprehension isreally where we need to focus,
they'll, if you ask them aquestion about the text, they'll
kind of just say the last thingthat they read, and so we
(17:13):
really put in place strategiesthat are just about hold on.
Take a moment to think.
Let's go back, and so I mean,none of it is rocket science,
but it's a lot of stuff that,like, actually point at the
words.
Show me the words that you'reusing to answer this question,
(17:33):
then they'll go oh, okay, yeah,so those words didn't answer the
question.
Let's go back and reread.
We do a lot of paragraphshrinking or getting the gist,
which I know people have talkedabout on your show before but
that's just identifying what'smost important in a paragraph
and then who or who.
So who or what is most important, and then what's important
about the who or what, whichsounds really simple, but I
(17:57):
can't tell you the number ofkids who just identifying the
topic of a paragraph is reallychallenging.
So they want to latch on towhat's most interesting to them.
So we just work on a lot ofthese skills.
And then this past year I had aspecific group that had so many
strengths as readers but justlike weren't doing well on sort
(18:19):
of like formal assessments, andso that group we worked on
question answer relationships,so that's identifying whether
the question I'm asked is can Ianswer it in the text, like the
words, are there the wholeanswers in the text or it's in
my head?
I have to make an inference,and that was kind of an
experiment.
We specifically just worked onanswering questions and several
(18:43):
of those kids made a ton ofgrowth, and so I think that's
something they'll continue towork with in the future.
Melissa (18:53):
You made me think, while you're talking about
slowing down which is reallyinteresting because I'm, you
know I also asked about fluency,which you know we talked to Dan
Hasbrook about, who says it'snot about reading fast, but it
is about reading automatically,right?
So you do want it to be at acertain rate.
So it's funny that, like inkids' minds, it's like at some
point it's like I'm trying toread faster right, they want me
to read faster but then it'salso like slow down, so you can
like really think about whatyou're you're reading.
(19:15):
So it's like finding that rightbalance of, you know, reading
at that right rate, so you, youknow, aren't laboring over every
word, but also slowing down tomake sense of what you're
reading, and that's a finebalance for them.
Catlin Goodrow (19:30):
Yeah, well, usually in groups that are
working on fluency andcomprehension, we'll start with
like two or three minutes offluency work where they're doing
repeated readings of the samepassage, and then we shift gears
.
But even in the fluency I willreally try and listen in and
(19:52):
give them really specificfeedback.
So I'll say, on this part youslowed down because there was a
word you needed to figure outand then you reread the sentence
, just like we've talked about,and so, even though you read
less words today than you didyesterday, it was because you
specifically slowed down at thisone part.
Melissa (20:14):
And it was purposeful to make sense of what they were
reading.
Catlin Goodrow (20:17):
Yeah, and so I think they need that really
specific feedback where you'reable to actually point to the
thing that they did, the wordthat they said, and that just
involves really carefullistening to what they're doing
as they read.
Lori (20:33):
All right.
So, katlyn, you're talkingabout these knowledge-based
units, right?
And you mentioned a before,during and after framework.
Can you share what this lookslike in practice?
I know everybody is like tellme, I want to replicate this
framework.
Catlin Goodrow (20:47):
So after I preview, I set a purpose for
reading, and one of the thingsthat has changed in my practice
is something that I learned froma Tim Shanahan blog Tim
Shanahan being one of thegreatest interpreters of
research into practical adviceand he talked about how your
purpose for reading should begeneral enough that students
(21:11):
aren't only focusing on oneaspect of the text.
So it could be something assimple as let's read to find out
more about the uniqueadaptations that birds have, or
let's read to find out whathappens to Beatrice and her
companions today.
So just a simple purpose, andthat's when we jump into the
(21:34):
during reading.
And in the during reading phasewe really have two routines.
One is the multi-syllabicdecoding routine that I talked
about earlier, and the other isthe paragraph shrinking or the
get the gist.
I tend to call it generatinggist statements or getting the
gist because I found, especiallyin texts for, say, third
(21:57):
graders, a lot of times theparagraph is not the right unit
to shrink.
It will have sometimes solittle information in it that
shrinking it is just retellingthe entire thing.
Lori (22:09):
So thank you for saying that.
I appreciate it.
As a former second and thirdgrade teacher, You're like.
Well, this paragraph was asentence there's not really much
to like.
Catlin Goodrow (22:19):
Exactly so.
I'll just block out for thekids what unit they should stop
on and shrink or get the gist of, and so kind of the purpose of
during reading is I want them togenerate just a general
understanding of the text, andthen after reading routines are
(22:42):
really about digging deeper.
One of my favorite afterreading routines is to have the
students generate questions.
They'll either jot them down asthey read or after they read.
They'll just note theirquestions and then we discuss
those questions and I try not tobe really like is this a good
(23:05):
question or not a good question,and really let them roll with
whatever they come up with,because I found that we as
adults don't always know whatare the questions that they are
going to have.
And so, like, one of my favoriteexamples was this picture of an
owl swooping down and there wasa mouse on the ground that had
(23:26):
like a little food, and one ofthe kids questions was why is
the owl giving the mouseside-eye?
And I was like what?
But I just went with it and itturned out that it really
illuminated for one of the otherkids what was going on, because
he hadn't realized that themouse was going to be the food.
(23:46):
And so by her question that toan adult you're like is this a
good question?
It actually helped himunderstand in a way that one of
my questions probably would nothave.
Melissa (23:57):
Yeah, and I was gonna say that's like the authentic
curiosity and also like makingmeaning right.
They're just they're trying tomake meaning of it.
So if it's where they're stuckand they have a question, you
don't want to squash that and,you know, have them afraid to
ask those questions.
So I'm curious about for theseknowledge-based units, I mean
(24:18):
that's, that's a big job for youto like create these
knowledge-based units.
I'm wondering, like, where doyou choose, like how do you
choose which texts and whichtopics to use for for your
interventions?
Catlin Goodrow (24:28):
Yeah, so I really had no resources when I
first started in this job.
Lori (24:36):
Sounds familiar to a lot of teachers.
Yes, so I was thinking.
Every teacher right now is likego on, go on.
Catlin Goodrow (24:42):
we're listening, so I've used a lot of the free
resources that are out there,like ReadWorks, and I have now,
over time and the generosity ofmy principal, gotten some text
sets.
So, say, the unit that the owlquestion came from.
It's a unit about birds and sothe target text, which is an
(25:09):
idea from Sarah Lupo and her use, so the target text we use for
that is called Spit Nests, pukePower and Other Brilliant Bird
Adaptations by Laura Perdue.
Melissa (25:25):
Say that one again.
That's such a great title.
Catlin Goodrow (25:28):
It's called Spit Nests, puke Power and Other
Brilliant Bird Adaptations.
Just the title you're like.
This is something kids want toread.
There actually are vulturesthat have acidic puke that they
puke on their enemies.
So kids love that, and so howcould they not?
How could they not?
And so that's the target texts.
(25:50):
It's a little more complex, ittalks about adaptations, and so
I then want to build up someunderstandings and vocabulary so
that we can actually read thattext.
So I just start with somegeneral ReadWorks articles or
free articles that are aboutwhat do birds have in common,
(26:11):
what are their characteristics?
So we read these articles andsort of build that understanding
what makes a bird a bird, whatdo birds have in common?
And then when we read spitnests, we're talking about well
then, what makes birds different?
How are they adapted to theirspecific environment?
And then we end with a writingtask where they have to draw a
(26:36):
specific environment and designa bird that is adapted to that
environment.
So it's also building thatschema of what is an adaptation
and how do adaptations helpthose animals survive.
Lori (26:52):
And when you're choosing these, what's happening in the
other classes?
Are you selecting these topicsbecause you know students have
learned about it?
Are you selecting these topicsbecause you know students will
learn about it?
Maybe neither of those are true.
Just an authentic question.
Yes, it really depends.
Catlin Goodrow (27:09):
So in fourth grade one of the books that I've
read with students is theBeatrice Prophecy by Kate
DiCamillo.
Lori (27:21):
I say DiCamillo in my head , but both are probably right.
It's an in-your-head last name.
Catlin Goodrow (27:27):
And so that is set in sort of like a nameless
medieval type kingdom and abunch of it happens in a
monastery.
And so my students in fourthgrade in the USKLA they do a
middle ages unit so they havesome of that background
knowledge before they come tothe text.
(27:49):
Some of the other ones are justthings that kids are interested
in.
With some of my more reluctant,older readers I'll say, like
here are three topics that areinteresting, like UFOs, dinosaur
fossils and something else, andhave them kind of do a rank
choice vote.
(28:10):
Those are harder because I thenhave to find the stuff that
they're interested in.
But I have found.
You know, now there's such aplethora of websites with texts
that it usually comes togetherpretty easily.
Lori (28:25):
All right, I'm wondering if we can walk through a
student's path.
So just thinking about an olderstudent who you might be
working with, maybe a fourthgrader, just because it's, you
know, in the middle, someone, akiddo who entered your
intervention, let's say, farbelow grade level, right?
So what do you do first andlike, how does that instruction
evolve over the course of theirtime with you as their
(28:49):
intervention teacher?
Catlin Goodrow (28:52):
Yeah, as their intervention teacher.
Yeah, so I'm specificallythinking of one student who came
to us, had not been at ourschool, came to us in fourth
grade and when I started theAcadians, which is fourth grade
text she really struggled rightaway and we actually went back
(29:14):
to like a first grade word listand then a first grade text and
so I talked to her a little bitabout what her path had been and
she was very honest about likefeeling like she'd been failed
by her previous school and shealso had a really tremendous
(29:34):
asset, which is that she hashigh oral vocabulary, lots of
verbal strengths, so that wassomething that we could build on
.
So she was actually in a groupof a few other students who also
hadn't been at our campus.
Because we are one of the onlyschools of choice in our area,
(29:55):
we get a lot of kids who theyand their parents just feel like
the other school wasn't workingfor them.
So a lot of kids who come toour campus at that age might be
striving readers, and so westarted with YouFly and there
was a small group with her thathad similar skills fly and there
(30:16):
was a small group with her thathad similar skills and after a
little while I realized thatthey were ready to move faster.
So we actually were doing liketwo lessons combined.
So they could, because they hadall these assets in their oral
language, because they wereolder.
They just their comprehensionand attention are better or
stronger than maybe a little onewould be.
(30:37):
We were able to pick upconcepts faster, and after about
six months of that we movedinto the knowledge building and
fluency unit.
So they actually did that birdunit that I was just talking
about.
They actually did that birdunit that I was just talking
about.
And then this year I would saythis student was still striving
(30:59):
with decoding, but now it iswith more of the multisyllabic
words.
And one thing that is a benefitwith kids who have strong oral
language and vocabulary is thateven if they decode a longer
word incorrectly, they're veryquickly able to say like oh,
that's this word, so this is,that's where that's the student
(31:19):
is.
And so I pushed in in fifthgrade so when, when it was time
to read text, we'd often read ina small group.
Because of her strong languageskills, she's a very creative
writer, so just needed some helpwith spelling and organizing
(31:40):
ideas.
But so after those two years.
She passed her state test atthe end of this year, and so
she'll definitely still needsome support in middle school.
But I feel strong about whereshe's going and the middle
(32:02):
school is in our building aswell, so I can check in.
Lori (32:06):
Oh, that's so good to hear .
We love a success story.
Catlin Goodrow (32:10):
Yes, and I think that I know some schools are
very much like.
We use this for tier two and weuse this for tier three, and I
know why they have those kind ofhard boundaries.
I think, though, like I doubt,that if we just like done you,
(32:30):
fly all year long exactly aswritten, if the student would
have gotten where she needed tobe, would have gotten where she
needed to be, and so having theflexibility to accelerate when
it's time has been reallyimportant to helping kids meet
their goals.
Melissa (32:48):
Yeah, I think that's so important and I love what you
brought up earlier with MarkSeidenberg too of, like you know
, when you start seeing themgoing and getting more than what
you're even teaching them, thendon't hold them back.
You don't need to keep themwhere they are, like let's get
them going as fast as they can,especially if they're one, two,
three grade levels below.
We want to get them where theyneed to be as fast as we can.
Catlin Goodrow (33:13):
And you know, if we find out like, oh, we need
to really strengthen our likevowel teams, we can do that, go
back and do that and then keepaccelerating.
Melissa (33:25):
Right, yeah, absolutely , and I'm glad you brought up
vocabulary.
I know we didn't mention thatearlier, which I'm shocked we
didn't mention it, but, like yousaid, she had really great
vocabulary.
But I'm assuming if you found astudent did not have the strong
oral vocabulary like she did,that is probably somewhere you
would find a place to put thatin as well, I'm guessing.
Catlin Goodrow (33:46):
Yes, and I think that the rewards program that I
use and I know there's asimilar free program, Word
Connections that these decodingprograms for older students
usually include a vocabularycomponent, so you're learning
prefixes and suffixes and roots,but you're also learning what
they mean, and so I think thoseprograms can be really helpful
(34:11):
in that area Makes sense.
Melissa (34:14):
So I am curious because our audience is mostly teachers
, right?
So a lot of them are thirdthrough fifth grade teachers and
probably thinking like theseare my students, they're sitting
in my class, I have to teachthem though the fourth grade
texts and they do still needwhat Catlin's giving them over
here.
Do you have any suggestions forthe teachers in the classroom
(34:35):
for students that still havethese decoding needs or the
multisyllabic decoding orfluency or vocabulary, if they
have those needs still?
I know that's a big question,but just some ideas for teachers
for how they can sort of helpthem even within the grade level
classroom.
Catlin Goodrow (34:53):
Yeah.
So I think that one thing thatI would say is be sure to have
opportunities to listen to kidsread so that you'll know exactly
what they need.
I think that you know we movedaway from running records in the
(35:14):
science of reading land, andthe problem with running records
wasn't listening to kids read,it was you know that they were
time consuming and that thelevels were not necessarily
accurate.
But listening to kids read isstill a great thing and taking
some kind of record or noteswhile they're reading is also
still a good thing, and so Ithink listening to those kids
(35:39):
read is really important.
And then I really recommend forthe teachers that I coach who
are teaching full classrooms youknow 24 kids or so to, during
times when kids are readingchallenging texts, to think
about intentionally how they'regoing to read, intentionally how
(36:01):
they're going to read.
So you might have five or sixkids who can read independently
on their own, silently.
You might have, you know, athird of the class who can do
paired reading, and I knowyou've had episodes on paired
reading that talk about how youwant a slightly stronger reader
with a reader who's morestriving, but you don't want a
(36:22):
vast difference between thosestudents.
So the sort of lead reader orthe coach can support the
striving reader but they'rereading together and then pull
your kids who are the moststriving and you can read with
them at a small table, maybe dochoral reading or do closed
reading, where you read but thenyou drop out and they read the
(36:44):
next word.
I usually vary, read aloud withthe kids reading some choral
reading.
My students love to readindividually, which I know not
everyone does and that can bereally anxiety producing for
some kids.
So cautiously, you know, but mykids ask too, so I do let them
(37:05):
sometimes, and so I would sayjust being really intentional
about grouping and then usingthose before, during and after
routines as scaffolds is reallyimportant.
Melissa (37:18):
Those are great suggestions and totally doable
in a classroom.
Thank you for those.
Catlin Goodrow (37:24):
Yeah.
Lori (37:24):
All right, so I get to do the best part of our podcast
today.
Katlyn wrote a book, so ifyou're so interested in all the
things that she shared today andyou want to hear more, you have
to get her book.
Katlyn, I have to tell you thisbook is like your cover of your
book is one of my favoritecovers I've ever seen.
It's so whimsical and sweet.
I love it.
(37:45):
But I'll let you tell about thebook so everybody can hear all
your amazing tips for reachingolder readers.
Catlin Goodrow (37:52):
Yes, so it's called Reading Beyond the Basics
Key Routines for Engaging,research-informed Instruction in
Grades 2 through 6.
So it's really targeted at thereaders we've been talking about
, and I love the cover as well.
And one of the reasons why Ichose the whimsical cover that I
did is I feel like a lot oftimes in the science of reading
(38:15):
space we're not as whimsical asback in the balanced reading
days, we're not as focused onthe fun and the love of reading.
And while everything in thebook is based on research, I
also wanted to just tell storiesabout kids reading and enjoying
(38:35):
books and about the time thatI've spent with kids just loving
books.
So there's tons of stories likethe one about the owl who gives
the mouse side eye in the bookas well.
And then the routines that Italk about in the book or today
are also in the book.
So all of those before, duringand after reading routines are
(38:58):
spelled out and I'll take youthrough from.
How do you introduce it, how doyou go through the gradual
release of responsibility?
And then one of the things thatwas really important to me in
writing the book was justknowing the varied situations
that teachers are in.
So some teachers get to plan awhole unit on their own, choose
(39:22):
the texts, but some teachersdon't, lots of teachers don't.
You have a core reading programthat you're supposed to follow,
and so one thing I wanted to dois provide guidance in how to
use the routine with your coreprogram, like what to look for
in the sidebars in your programthat can help you pick the words
(39:43):
to preview, or how do you thinkabout analyzing the text that
you have to teach versus onethat you've picked and you know
really well already.
And so that was important to me, because I think, especially a
lot of times when you come outof teacher school, you've like
(40:03):
learned to write all theselessons from scratch and you're
ready to go and no one hastalked to you about well how do
you execute on a lesson thatsomeone else wrote, and so that
was an important part of thebook for me.
Lori (40:17):
Such important stuff for teachers to know.
So thank you for writing itAgain.
It's called Reading Beyond theBasics.
It's out on October 9th.
You can pre-order on Amazon now, of course, but I also want to
note that I've listed everythingin the show notes and linked
them, everything that you'veshared today.
So you talked about a podcastor one of our podcast episodes
with Devin Kearns.
I linked another podcastepisode that spoke to one thing
(40:41):
that you talked about but didn'tsay the episode.
Another article by Sarah LupoBuilding Background Knowledge
Through Reading Rethinking TextSets.
The Rewards Program by AnitaArcher that is a paid program.
It looks like Just scoutingaround online.
And then Word Connections byJessica Toast.
That is a free program.
So if you are listening rightnow, you have a ton of resources
(41:02):
in the show notes.
Go click and go find out more.
Can we add our partner reading?
Oh yeah, good call, I knew, see, I was like busy linking.
Thank you, you got so many, butI'll add that one.
I got a lot.
Thank you, that's such a goodepisode.
Which one is that With JakeDowns?
Right, jake Downs sport, sport,yes, synchronized paired oral
(41:25):
reading.
Wait, synchronized paired oralreading.
Techniques.
I always want to say teambecause it's sport, but I know
that's not right.
So, jake, if you're listening.
We'll have to do another onewith another acronym.
Catlin Goodrow (41:42):
That's one of those episodes that I like to
give people that I coach,because I'm like here's someone
else saying this and you'llprobably listen, and it's a
researcher.
Lori (41:51):
It's a really fun episode.
Jake makes it so easy tounderstand.
Thank you for calling that oneout too.
No problem.
Ah, so many good resources.
Thank you so much for beinghere we can't thank you enough.
Catlin Goodrow (42:02):
Yes, thanks for having me on again.
It's so exciting to be backafter these many years and
hundreds of episodes later.
Hundreds of episodes.
Melissa (42:15):
To stay connected with us, sign up for our email list
at literacypodcastcom, join ourFacebook group and follow us on
Instagram and Twitter.
Lori (42:30):
If this episode resonated with you, take a moment to share
with a teacher friend or leaveus a five-star rating and review
on Apple Podcasts.
Melissa (42:35):
Just a quick reminder that the views and opinions
expressed by the hosts andguests of the Melissa and Lori
Love Literacy podcast are notnecessarily the opinions of
Great Minds PBC or its employees, we appreciate you so much and
we're so glad you're here tolearn with us.
Lori (42:51):
Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.