Episode Transcript
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Shaun Gartman (00:00):
We as as fathers, there's times where our kids
will ask us something, and andwe're we're in that place. Like,
do you think I don't? Yeah. Youknow? And so one of the bigger
shifts comes from I think a lotof us struggle with the who am I
(00:22):
question, you know?
And I I think who am I should bethe derivative of understanding
whose am I.
Caleb Cole (00:33):
You're listening to Men of Faith, the podcast
dedicated to calling men up andnot out. Join me as we live a
life dedicated to our God.Welcome back to the Men of Faith
(00:55):
podcast. I'm your host, CalebCole. I'm here with my cohost
here in season two and seasonone.
Brandon Miller is here.
Brandon Miller (01:04):
What's up, Brandon?
Caleb Cole (01:06):
Brandon, you're looking good. I actually just
really love your blue pantstoday.
Brandon Miller (01:10):
I appreciate that.
Caleb Cole (01:11):
I wanna make sure those are on camera, though.
Brandon Miller (01:13):
Those are for you. Those are for you. I'm
digging. Golf vibes.
Caleb Cole (01:17):
Yeah. You you definitely have it today. We
have a guest with us today. Thisis Sean Gartman. Sean, I've
actually known you.
We go back a ways. Brandon andyou, I know, go back a ways,
but, talk to the men of faithabout who you are, kinda what
you do. Give some context forwhy you're even on here today.
Shaun Gartman (01:38):
Well, I, you know, I have business wise, I
have been, in the computerindustry, for thirty years. So I
have a company calledCornerstone Technology. And,
but, in 2014, I followed whatthe Lord was leading, and I, I
(02:01):
went into the concessions andcreated a company called Pop It
Forward. And, and we wereteaching people to be
sustainable, throughconcessions. And so we were
coming alongside of nonprofits.
We started with YWAM, actually,and, we're teaching them how to
be sustainable using concessionsto do it. And now I have a food
(02:24):
trailer called Carnival FoodTrailer right here in
Sacramento, and it's beennominated two years in a row as
the best food truck inSacramento.
Caleb Cole (02:31):
I didn't know this until you told me this morning,
but
Shaun Gartman (02:34):
There it is.
Caleb Cole (02:34):
Congratulations. Thank you. So we wanna talk
today about mental health. Andso I would like, before we jump
in there, obviously mentalhealth is a great issue right
now in our culture
Shaun Gartman (02:47):
Yeah.
Caleb Cole (02:48):
Among men, and it's something that we really haven't
talked about, Brandon. Mean,we've alluded to it with Mhmm.
Obviously hitting other topicsthat all tie into our mental
health, but having one episodededicated to it, I think, is
important. And so I do wannahear a little bit about ministry
too, because Sean, obviously,that's what you do, like,
business wise, probably how youmake your money, but I know
(03:11):
you've done a lot of ministrythrough the years. Yeah.
And it's why we wanted to haveyou on for this topic.
Shaun Gartman (03:16):
Come
Caleb Cole (03:16):
on. Talk a little bit about ministry and what
you've done and what you'redoing now.
Shaun Gartman (03:20):
Yeah. So about six years ago, I came across a
miner ministry called Encounter.And, at this moment, the NorCal
Encounter portion is really justreaching into men. But when you
reach the man, you reach themarriage, you reach the family,
(03:42):
it's a it's a radical shift forthem. And so we you know, one of
the big things that we find,especially in encounter, is
helping, men who are trying tofigure out how they fit, who
they are, to to land in theiridentity as a son.
(04:02):
Yeah. And so that is our corething to help them settle in
their identity for who they arein Christ. And it creates a
radical transformation all theway through their family.
Caleb Cole (04:14):
And so this is a program that you do or how would
you define it?
Shaun Gartman (04:18):
It's a parachurch ministry that invites it's
incredibly ecumenical. Almostall of the encounters we have
with sixty, seventy guys,represents a huge, portion of
the body of Christ all the wayfrom Catholics all the way to
the the Charismatics, so itreaches across
Caleb Cole (04:41):
all of them. Yeah, all lines. So Brandon, I know
that you and Sean go back andyou wanted to have him on today.
I mean, I knew Sean, but Brandonwas like, hey, why don't we have
Sean Gartman on my own? That'dbe great.
So talk to me about kinda whyand and what your guys'
connection has been.
Brandon Miller (04:56):
Yeah, Sean and I met in 2014, actually. We were
in a business group together,and Sean being very outspoken
about his faith and getting toto connect on that level
together, we we would starthaving lunch. And when I would
go to lunch with Sean, it wasnot a single lunch that went by
as Sean didn't have some kind ofencouraging words, some
(05:16):
something from the scripture,something that God had put on
his heart that I would walk awayand tell people that I work
with. Yet, I went to lunch withSean today. They would just
start knowing, like, Sean.
Like, who's the guy Sean? And soI I I was invited to encounter
the ministry he's talking about.And then another ministry,
Sean's a part of, SacramentoChristian Healing Ministry Yeah.
(05:39):
And invited to participate andto, engage with that. And so on
both accounts, Sean, has been aa significant part of my own
mental health spiritual health,I would say, before mental, but
they they connect in all ways.
Yeah. And so, I thought he wouldbe someone that could speak both
(05:59):
from the standpoint of theministry to men in particular
Yes. Because those encountersare very focused on guys and
what's unique to our challenges.But I think broadly, because the
ministry that he helps to leadand facilitate the the healing
ministry does a lot of deepwork, and you hear that word a
lot now. Deep And and andsolving trauma.
(06:20):
And and I I I was part of agroup of guys that talked a lot
about different Ayahuasca andother interesting forms of deep
work and therapy. And I waslike, yeah. No. I'm gonna I'm
not I'm all good with therapy,the other one, no. But with
Sean, I he were in going downthis path, learned a lot about
(06:40):
just how we can really, support,sustain, and change things that
are a part of what we carriedinto this life and what we carry
forward and get hands on itthrough some very structured
ministry experiences.
And so I think he he has awealth to bring us in some of
those areas.
Shaun Gartman (06:57):
That's great.
Caleb Cole (06:59):
I love, you know, your guys' connection.
Obviously, Sean and I met. Imean, it was probably thirteen,
fourteen years ago now, atanother church. We got
connected. We had lunch.
Shaun Gartman (07:10):
Lot praying over you.
Caleb Cole (07:11):
Yeah. He prayed over us and was there in the early
launch of Project Church. But wehaven't kinda crossed paths in a
while, so this is fun. But I'mcurious what really hear from
both of you guys. Like, why doyou think, or what is the the
issue or the culprit as to whyso many men are struggling?
(07:32):
Struggling with mental health,struggling with purpose,
struggling with leading andleadership, struggling just
being, like, men of God. This isthe Men of Faith Podcast.
Struggling being men of faith.You know, even struggling with
with the dynamic of ofmasculinity in this culture. I
(07:54):
mean, there's so many factors,but what do you think?
If you were to narrow it down toa couple things, what do you
think is really holding menback? And then then I know you
you have something that helpsthem, and so what kind of
solution is that is thatbringing? And I wanna hear from
from both of you actually onthis.
Shaun Gartman (08:10):
Yeah. One of the things that we've added to the
encounter is we've addedsomething we call the father's
blessing and, we started by justsimply asking, you know, who
here got to pick the family youwere born into? And of I've
never had anybody raise theirhand.
Caleb Cole (08:29):
Not me.
Shaun Gartman (08:31):
But there's a lot of people who wouldn't pick the
family they were born into. Andthat leads to the next question,
and we end up at this placeafter a father's children talk
of inviting the men up, who havenever heard I love you from
their father, never heard theirfather bless them. And Wow.
(08:56):
Every time every time over halfof them stand up. Wow.
And and we're talking 70 guysand so there's there's that is
such a deep place to hearsomeone and and and it opens
them to be able to begin to hearfrom the father, the heavenly
(09:18):
father. Yeah. And so we come andso that's one of the things we
do.
Caleb Cole (09:22):
So are you saying it's fatherlessness or the lack
of love and understanding ofwhat a son what sonship, which
you addressed earlier, whatsonship looks like, and really
understanding that there is afather that loves them, because
they didn't experience itearthly, it's hard for them to
(09:44):
grasp it spiritually, and thatthe heavenly father
Shaun Gartman (09:46):
You bet. Yeah. Yeah. I Do
Caleb Cole (09:48):
you think that's the primary issue?
Shaun Gartman (09:50):
Yeah. I I know it was for me. Yeah. I I my my
mother has gotten marriedmultiple times, and, so I ended
up with three different dads,and all of them came with their
own messes and struggles. And,and so when I came to this place
where I was trying to understandthat I had a heavenly father, it
(10:13):
was a deep fight for me.
And I know for me, when itreally landed was, I began to
take Ephesians one and, insteadof reading it the way Paul wrote
it to the Ephesians, I wasreading it over myself. I made
it something incredibly personaland, and to see that I am seated
(10:37):
with Christ that the father hasalways had a plan for me and his
plan was for good and it was forme to be in Christ has Ephesians
more than any other book in thebible has completely transformed
the way I see the father veryspecifically.
Caleb Cole (10:56):
I love that. Brandon, what do you think?
Brandon Miller (10:59):
Yeah. I would say in my own journey, and I'll
I'll connect Sean to this partof the journey, I I think for
those of us that want to serveGod, we want to please him, but
in the back of our heads,there's this voice, this
antagonistic, I'm doing itwrong, I'm messing it up, I'm
and and it's it's guilt laden,shame laden, it's filled with,
(11:22):
I'm not measuring up, I'm notI'm not stacking up. And the
amount of men out there thatjust kinda just feel a step back
and whether we're we'repretending like we're ahead and
it's all together, we're good,but it but the avoidance of
drawing near, hearing thefather's voice and being willing
to walk in step was somethingthat I personally had to to
(11:44):
wrestle with. Why is it that myversion of God's voice was so
harsh? Why was it why was it soYeah.
Why did it feel so condemning?Why did I why did I believe that
that's how I would be spoken toin Christ? And so I feel like
what what Sean and othersthrough the ministries that they
do help guys connect to is backto what is that authentic voice
(12:06):
to us in Christ, and how howdoes it sound? And you mentioned
Ephesians because Sean asked meto read a book at one point.
It's called Sit Walk Stand byWatchman Knee.
And he said, just listen to thefirst chapter. Put it on repeat
and listen to it. And so it'sthis idea of sitting. And and
the whole point was Mhmm. Beforeyou go and do anything, you have
to know who you are.
(12:27):
You're seated with Christ in theheavenlies if you're
Shaun Gartman (12:29):
a Christian.
Brandon Miller (12:29):
And if you don't get that part, then when it's
time to go do the stuff, thewalking and the, you know, the
standing and going, and now yougotta battle and you gotta get
out there, if that isn't firm,if your identity is not firm,
you're getting crushed outthere. Yeah. You're gonna you're
gonna you're gonna come backbloody, beaten, bruised, and
you're gonna think it's Goddoing it to you. Yeah. But in
reality, this world and the thethe forces of darkness, they're
(12:53):
gonna beat the snot out of youif you can't Yeah.
Come back to, no. Who who am I?So that was one. But then I have
to say number two, and this, Ithink, comes back to just how do
you take what you've learned andunderstand if it doesn't go
towards something, if you're notmoving toward a mission, if
there if you haven't joined inthis great mission, then you're
(13:16):
gonna get stagnant and stale.You're gonna you're gonna find
yourself floundering.
And I think that was a big partof what I had to come to terms
with in my own journey is I hadreversed those two in my own
walk. I was trying to to performmy way into God's Right. You
know, favor. I was trying to doall the stuff Yeah. Without
first going, no.
I gotta I gotta sit here, be whohe said, and then then watch it
(13:41):
go. Because now now missionprecedes relationship. It it
follows relationship.
Caleb Cole (13:46):
Yeah. I think being a father, you know, I've learned
just the power of what you bothare talking about right now.
Yeah. Because we see it in ourchildren, just the longing for
affirmation and acceptance Yeah.And love.
My oldest one is the the mostclear indicator for me. You
(14:08):
know, he he just wants myapproval so much and longs to be
affirmed. I mean, literallyyesterday, we're driving in the
car, and he's talking about he'son the golf team now. He's
talking about golf and how he'shitting the ball while he's
like, I'm pretty good at golf.Am I, dad?
And, like, it was such a weirdthing for him to he, like, made
(14:33):
a declaration about himself, andthen said, Am I dad? Like, am I
good? And I'm like, Yeah, you'regood, bro. But I'm like, Why are
you asking me? You just said youwere.
He's like, well, I just wantedto see if you thought I was.
Mhmm. You know? And I and I Ifelt that, like, deep in my
heart in the moment of, like,man, he just wants to be
(14:56):
accepted, affirmed, loved,approved of. And how many men
never got that from a father.
Never. And then they they don'tknow how to receive that from a
heavenly father because it isall, like you said, Brandon,
it's about achieving, and thenGod approves of us. And when we
fail, it's Him that did it tous. So He actually doesn't just
(15:20):
disapprove of us, He crushed usbecause of how much we don't
measure up. Right.
So he caused the failure. And,you know, being a father, I'm
just reminded how much more sonsneed to understand how loved
they are, how approved they are
Shaun Gartman (15:41):
Yeah.
Caleb Cole (15:41):
How accepted they are, affirmed they are. And so,
I mean, this will be my call upat the end, I guess, but those
of us that are fathers and havethe opportunity still to parent
young men, but also girls,right, that we would give them
what they not only need butdeserve, should receive. As
(16:03):
sons, we deserve that. We shouldreceive that. But we suck as
fathers, so we don't know how togive it because we didn't get it
ourselves.
Shaun Gartman (16:10):
Yeah.
Caleb Cole (16:11):
But ultimately, I think we're a generation that is
fatherless or didn't receive thelove affirmation, encouragement
that we should have growing up,So that's why half the room
stands up and says, My dad nevertold me he loved me. Yeah. My
dad never told me he was proudof me, you know? Or, I didn't
even have a father to do that.Yeah.
(16:31):
And then we wonder why theycan't connect with the heavenly
father. And how much of this istied to mental health, actually?
Shaun Gartman (16:38):
Well, I'll tag off of, one of the words that
you just said, which is deserve.And, you know, I mean, during my
what I call my performance yearswhere I'm doing this for God.
I'm doing it for my dad. I'mdoing it to show that I'm worthy
and and then you'd land in thisplace where something bad would
(16:59):
happen and you would immediatelythink, well, because I did this
or Yeah. At this this failuremeans I deserve this and you
have something miss, you know,killing you
Caleb Cole (17:15):
Yeah.
Shaun Gartman (17:16):
And you think that you earned every bit of it.
And, you know, going back toEphesians right there in
Ephesians one, there's this oneI remember the first time I just
started to beef jerky chew onthis one thing. It says that the
father sees me as perfect andholy. And, every once in a while
(17:40):
you'll you'll land on a piece ofscripture and you're like, well,
how does that work?
Caleb Cole (17:45):
Yeah.
Shaun Gartman (17:46):
And, because I have so much demands on myself,
I have so much perfection inperfectionism and I've got to do
this perfect. And, I justremember when the father said,
the reason I see you, Sean, asperfect and holy is because I
(18:08):
see you through my son. I seeyou through the blood of my son
and and it it just transformedand changed and it it wasn't an
overnight transformation but,it's, it's beautiful watching,
(18:30):
men step from that I gotta dothis for you God to I get to do
this with you.
Caleb Cole (18:38):
Yeah.
Shaun Gartman (18:39):
And it's it's a big transition.
Caleb Cole (18:42):
Oh, love that. That's powerful.
Shaun Gartman (18:43):
Come on.
Caleb Cole (18:44):
Just just how God sees us.
Shaun Gartman (18:47):
Yeah.
Caleb Cole (18:48):
And it's much better than we see ourselves.
Shaun Gartman (18:50):
Come on. Well, and I love I love what you just
said about your son because itwe as as fathers, there's times
where our kids will ask ussomething and and we're we're in
that place like, do you think Idon't? Yeah. You know? And so
(19:12):
one of the bigger shifts comesfrom I think a lot of us
struggle with the who am Iquestion, you know?
And I I think who am I should bethe derivative of understanding
whose am I. Mhmm. And when youfully grasp that that you
(19:33):
belong, you belong, the fatherhas fully accepted you because
of Christ.
Caleb Cole (19:39):
Yeah. We're changing the topic of this episode to
sonship. What does it mean to bea son and a father? And a
spiritual father or an earthlyfather, if we are that? Yeah.
But also understanding ourheavenly father. You know? Like,
that's essentially where thishas gone. And probably if we got
this right, we would have a lotless mental health issues.
Brandon Miller (20:01):
Well, think about it. You know, in in the
work that my company does, thethe topic of psychological
safety comes up a lot.
Shaun Gartman (20:07):
Yeah.
Brandon Miller (20:07):
And when you think about where are we most
safe in Christ Yeah. And wheredo we feel secure, and where do
we feel
Shaun Gartman (20:14):
Yeah.
Brandon Miller (20:14):
That we're in a place of health and strength? So
when we are anxious, when wehave fear, when we have doubts,
when we're feeling out of sorts,it's it's the fallback position
of, no, but I know I know thesetruths and I rely on these
truths because that's that's howI see my way through. And so I I
(20:36):
would agree with you thatthere's a very strong link
between our mental health spaceand our sonship and our security
and and our recognition of whathe has done and who we are in
him.
Caleb Cole (20:48):
Yeah. Yeah. I don't think identity is something
we've talked a lot about in ourpodcast, the men of faith. But
essentially, that's what we'readdressing right now.
Shaun Gartman (20:57):
Yeah.
Caleb Cole (20:57):
Is identity, sonship Yeah. Being your identity as
men, and yet how many menwouldn't even identify that, nor
would they probably want toembrace that. I think there's a
lot of of Christians, men offaith, who are like, Sonship,
I'm grown. You know? Like, I'm agrown man.
(21:18):
I I don't need to be a, like,Don't sun me. Like, you'll hear
that. Like, that's actually asaying now, like, Oh, he's Don't
sun me. He sunned him. Like,Listen here, son.
Right. But it's like, No, that'sour identity with a heavenly
father.
Brandon Miller (21:33):
You've done this to me a lot. You when
Caleb Cole (21:35):
we just Did you?
Brandon Miller (21:36):
No. What he would do is, on multiple times
when we'd be together, he wouldsay, rank in order your
identity. Right? Yeah. And hewould and he would just hit me,
like, Rank in order.
All the things you are right nowfrom the most important down
Shaun Gartman (21:50):
Yeah.
Brandon Miller (21:50):
What are they?
Caleb Cole (21:52):
Okay. And where would you changed. Tell me the
wrong rankings. Tell me thewrong rankings and tell me the
right ranking.
Brandon Miller (21:59):
Husband, father, son, you know, son Provider.
Yeah. Provider, protector. Yes.And I meant son to my parents,
you know, brother, you know,this, uncle, there.
And and then throughconversations, it would be,
well, wait a minute. If I don'tstart with son to my father in
heaven, then all of these otherroles will suffer the
(22:21):
consequence of me being out oforder. Yeah. Yeah. Because I
won't be able to stain sustainany one of these in a powerful
positive way if I don't havefirst first things first.
Shaun Gartman (22:31):
Yeah. If your identity isn't something that's
settled Yeah. It's the root ofmost mental health problems.
Mean, we're in a society and ina culture that is you could be
whoever you want, you can bewhatever you want, you can and
(22:53):
and Yeah. We're there's a lot ofmental health crisis and if I
was looking for what is the rootof mental health crisis in a in
a in our current day, honestly,I believe it would come down to
identity.
Caleb Cole (23:10):
Identity.
Shaun Gartman (23:11):
How do I think God sees me? How do I think
people see me? How do I seemyself?
Caleb Cole (23:17):
Wow. I I think that there are probably men listening
to this right now that this isrevelatory. I think this is
there's revelation being droppedin the hearts and minds of men
right now. And I think there'sprobably, as you're on the verge
of tears and were earlier, Ijust sense that there's men
(23:40):
crying right now because they,while they're listening to this,
and I'm talking to you men whoare listening to this right now,
watching this, because you'vewrestled with who you are, whose
you are, and you've wondered whymentally I'm unhealthy, and, you
know, I struggle with worry andanxiety, and where do I belong,
and what's really my purposehere? And ultimately, it does
(24:02):
come down to this idea ofsonship.
And I think if we all would justembrace the reality of, like,
that is what's most important.Yeah. I love that you guys are
ranked that. I've never heardthat. I'm gonna start doing that
for myself, because I need toprobably have a rank check.
That's real. I'm a son first.
Brandon Miller (24:23):
Yeah. Yeah. Ranked check. That's good.
Caleb Cole (24:26):
I'm a son first.
Shaun Gartman (24:28):
Yeah.
Caleb Cole (24:28):
And from that, everything else will flow You
bet. Naturally. And I think, notperfectly, but more perfectly.
Yeah. But when I'm out of order,and I'm trying to be, what,
protector first
Shaun Gartman (24:43):
Yeah.
Caleb Cole (24:43):
Provider first, and then I feel like I'm never
enough, I'm never measuring up.Well, that's because I'm not The
number one is sonship, and I'llalways be enough. I'll always
measure up I know that there's aFather that approves of me,
loves me, accepts me, just as Iam.
Shaun Gartman (24:59):
Sees you perfect and holy.
Caleb Cole (25:00):
Yes, like my son. Am I dad? But you know what's crazy
is part of me didn't want to sayit.
Shaun Gartman (25:07):
And
Caleb Cole (25:10):
I think that was the broken part of me that was like,
didn't hear it enough myself,and if I say it, he'll get weak
or soft. And there was a part ofme that didn't want to say it.
Yeah. And I fought myself in aand it's, you know, this this is
all processing in my head in,three seconds. Yeah.
(25:33):
And I responded with a questionbecause I was like, why am I I
was still processing, why do Inot want to say it? And I said,
well, do you think you are?Yeah, I do. And I was like, I
agree. Are.
You're good. You could be great,but it takes work. That's why I
said to them, like, you could begreat, but it takes work. Right?
(25:53):
There's But you're good just howyou are.
Yeah. You're natur That's what Iwas like, you're naturally
gifted.
Shaun Gartman (25:59):
Come on.
Caleb Cole (26:00):
And I think that, you know, this is a whole other,
maybe part of this topic ofsonship, but, you know, even
those of us who had goodfathers, which I did, good
earthly father, and yet, knowingthat, like, I grew up in a
family that wasn't thataffectionate, that I love you
wasn't said as regularly. It wassaid, but it wasn't like, we
(26:23):
weren't an affectionate family.There wasn't I love yous all
over the place and affectionbeing thrown out, which is like
how my wife is now. And evenfrom her, when she's overly
affectionate towards me, tellingme how great I am and how
uncomfortable it makes me. Like,she affirms me all the time and
it always makes meuncomfortable.
Like, you don't got to say allthat. Like, I'm not that great.
(26:46):
But I've learned more from her,the heart of what I think the
Father is. Yeah. Because hewants to pour out his love on us
all the time, and I'm justwrestling, even myself, with
this idea of sonship, and am Ideserving?
So would you say, because Isaid, we talked about earlier,
deserve, deserve, like, thatfine line of how we've all been
(27:08):
parented, like tough love, andyou gotta work through it
yourself, and you know, yougotta earn it, and you gotta
work hard, and that's all true.But, do we deserve to be
encouraged and built up and lovepoured out on us every day? Does
that make us soft? I don't knowbecause I Yeah. Didn't grow up
(27:29):
in that environment, you know?
Shaun Gartman (27:30):
Yeah. For me, sonship is about abiding. I know
you talked about this yesterdayand I know this because we you
also were talking about fruit ofthe spirit and I I just know
(27:51):
that in my own performancementality for at least the first
twenty five years of my, beliefin Jesus and my walk and and
trying to be a good husband andthat it was it was always I'm
trying I I I need to be moreloving in this situation. I need
(28:13):
to be more patient in thissituation and I I finally felt
the Lord say, would you give meyour love and trade me for mine?
And I call it the tap outmoment.
Brandon Miller (28:26):
Mhmm.
Shaun Gartman (28:26):
Because I have a if if I'm the source of love, it
it's it's a shallow pool.
Brandon Miller (28:33):
Mhmm. For sure.
Shaun Gartman (28:34):
And when I when I tapped out of trying to be
loving toward my wife, towardmyself, toward others and I
tapped in to the love of God andthe fruit of his nature Mhmm.
Everything changed. Everythingchanged. And, I I I nicknamed it
(28:57):
the great love inversion, andit's where I just stopped trying
to be, including the goodthings, the patient, joyful,
gentle, compassionate, longsuffering. And, I I gave up
trying, tapped out, and tappedin, and it's been the most
(29:20):
transformational thing that'sever happened in my life.
Caleb Cole (29:23):
I love that. The, shameless plug for my sermon
yesterday, you guys can listento it on the podcast.
Shaun Gartman (29:29):
It's awesome.
Caleb Cole (29:31):
It it was, in our decrease series from because I
don't know when this episode'sgonna air, but it was April 6,
and, I talked about just knowinghis way, which is the abiding
way, and the word abide, whichhe uses 10 times in John 15
Yeah. In this 11 verse sectionof Scripture where he's talking
(29:52):
about the vine, and him beingthe vine, and we're the
branches, and apart from him, wecan do nothing, right? If we're
not plugged into the vine, whatcan we accomplish? That's what
Jesus is saying, but he uses theterm abide 10 times in these 11
verses. And the word, like whenwe translate in the Greek,
actually means to make your homein.
Shaun Gartman (30:10):
Come
Caleb Cole (30:10):
on. So when you make your home in him, and that
topic, or what you just said,reminds me of the quote that I
read yesterday to our church.David Benner, who's a
psychologist
Shaun Gartman (30:21):
Okay.
Caleb Cole (30:22):
And a spiritual director, he said, Meditation on
God's love has done more toincrease my love than decades of
effort to try to be more loving.And that quote is exactly what
you just said.
Shaun Gartman (30:34):
It's source shift.
Caleb Cole (30:35):
Yeah, the source, right? I'm trying to be more
loving. We try so hard. But hesaid, it's just meditating on
God's love that did way morefrom me learning to be more
loving. And so it's thatabiding.
I'm making my home in the vine,Jesus. And his love then shows
me how to love. It teaches mehow love, and I'm plugged into
(30:57):
that love.
Shaun Gartman (30:58):
Come on. So good. So good. So I can't wait to hear
Chrissy's version of that, samesermon, by
Caleb Cole (31:07):
the Right. It would be better. There'd be a lot more
tears. Aw. So within, you know,this this topic of sonship,
Brandon, you've you've earthlyfathered, how many sons now?
Four or five?
Brandon Miller (31:25):
I have three sons.
Caleb Cole (31:26):
Three sons. Okay. You have so many kids. I can't
keep it straight. You havegrandsons now too, though, I
think.
Brandon Miller (31:31):
Yeah.
Caleb Cole (31:32):
So three sons. What has been maybe the the biggest
need you've seen in maybe youngmen today? And I think that we
talked a little bit about thiswith Sam in his podcast where we
talked about the nextgeneration, but we didn't talk
about men or boys specifically.I know you have a son that's
(31:53):
older, but you also have twoyounger sons who are still in
high school. So what have youseen, like, as the need for this
generation that's maybe evendifferent than our generation
or, you know, generations alittle bit after us?
Brandon Miller (32:05):
It's very natural as a as a dad who
performs for a living, you know,being a business person, being
you know, growing up an athlete,growing up with a mindset of
perform or, you know, lose. It'sit's a zero sum game And life is
hard and, you know, wear ahelmet because it's gonna you're
gonna you're gonna fall, you'regonna hurt. And so with boys, I
(32:28):
found with my older one that Ihad to learn how to instill in
Lance that I loved himregardless of how he performed.
That that that was that wassomething that was
nonnegotiable. It wouldn'tchange.
I would always love him.Performance was next, and I
wanted him to do well. I wantedhim to succeed. I wanted him to
(32:49):
find purpose, find joy, allthose great things. But if I
reverse that, then Lance wouldwould constantly be striving for
something that would always beout of reach.
Because if you're performing forlove, you'll never, you don't
get it. Yes. Because what youboth just said about Abide and
so as a dad, I felt like it wasa big part of my job of rooting
him in that his father loveshim, father, and then his father
(33:12):
loves him. And that was a Ithink I think in a kid's life,
the the messages they rememberare the ones you repeat the
most. Yeah.
And so Yeah. Taking the time todo it, you know, God says in the
old testament, when you'rewalking along the roads, when
you're in the car, when you'rein your house, when you're at
your table, just reminding of ofthat you're loved. So my son,
(33:34):
Lance, you could quiz him onthis. It was, you know, what
does your dad want you to bemore than anything else in this
world? And he would say, a manof God.
Caleb Cole (33:41):
And it
Brandon Miller (33:41):
was, you know, be be rooted in that. Be rooted
in God's love because that'sthat's gonna matter more than
anything.
Caleb Cole (33:47):
Yeah. I love that. Sean, you're you've worked with
a lot of men through the years.Yeah. I know you operate as a
spiritual father Yeah.
For a lot of men. And so whatwould you say to, you know, some
of these men that are listeningright now? I think there's a lot
of men out here that arelistening, and this episode is
resonating with their heart. ButI don't know that they, probably
(34:09):
a lot of them, don't havespiritual fathers in their life,
or they haven't had an earthlyfather that's spoken to So what
would you encourage them with interms of, like, how they can
move to a place of sonship?Like, it's easy for us to say,
be a son.
Prioritize sonship. That'snumber one. But how do you do
(34:29):
that? Because I don't think weeven know how to. Yeah.
We don't know how to make thewhat do we call it? The the the
change? The ranking change? Idon't
Shaun Gartman (34:39):
know what you guys said. Yeah. Well, I for me,
I think the biggest thing thathappened because because of the
three fathers that were in mylife, my, my biological dad, my
stepdad, and my adopted father,it was always about how they see
(35:00):
me. How do how do they see me?How do they perceive me?
And am I doing enough for themto see me the way I'm wanting?
And so my my my word for you istake off your glasses of the way
you see the guy in the mirror.Take off your glasses of the way
(35:22):
you believe the father sees you,even your own earthly father,
and hand them to the Lord andlet him clean off some of the
things that that have beensmeared on there from the way
you were treated, mistreated,hurt, ignored from your own
(35:45):
father, and let him clean thoselenses to show you how he truly
sees you. And again, I I I justinvite every one of you just get
in Ephesians one and read it infirst person and and listen to
what the father is saying overyou and how he sees you. Because
(36:08):
for me, having that visionchange, the way I see myself and
the way I believe others see me,was seriously, without question,
the most transformational Yeah.
Moment in my own life.
Caleb Cole (36:24):
That's powerful. I think that we don't often take
the time to shift theperspective of even how we see
ourselves. And we don't thinkabout how negative or critical
or judgmental we see our ownlives, how we're leading, how
(36:46):
we're loving, how we'reperforming, how we're parenting.
Yeah. And it is a critical,negative, probably mental space
that a lot of us live in, in howwe are essentially leading
ourselves, but it's all rootedin how we see ourselves Yeah.
And how we think our earthlyfather saw us, other people see
(37:09):
us, and ultimately our heavenlyfather sees us. Yeah. And that
shift is hard.
Shaun Gartman (37:16):
If you're cursing the guy in the mirror or you're
hating the guy in the mirror,it's it's it's a lens you're
looking through that the fatherwants to just say, here, let me
change this. Let me clean thislens up to show you one how I
see you, as perfect and holy.Why?
Caleb Cole (37:37):
My you're
Shaun Gartman (37:38):
in Christ and I call you my son. I call you in.
You're adopted into my into mylife. And Yeah. You you you
talked a little bit about ityesterday, John 15.
John fifteen nine says, abide inmy love. This is Jesus saying
Caleb Cole (37:54):
Yeah.
Shaun Gartman (37:54):
Abide in my love as I abide in the father's love.
To me, that's that's the wholereason why I get to boldly
approach the throne. Yeah.Because the father sees me in
his son and loves me in his son,which is why he sees me as
perfect and holy.
Caleb Cole (38:14):
Yeah. I love that. Well, one thing we do here,
Sean, is we give a call up atthe end of every episode. So we
don't call men out. We call themup.
Shaun Gartman (38:25):
I love it.
Caleb Cole (38:25):
And and we believe that calling men up, you know,
to higher places, greaterthings, know, God's been doing a
lot through this podcast and inmen's lives, so I'm thankful for
it. So I'll give you a minute.Each of you think about a call
up. I'll kick us off, though,but I do wanna, I think, call up
the men, just all the men thatare parents, our fathers,
(38:50):
earthly fathers, becauseultimately, there's a lot that
listen to this podcast that arein our stage of life, or my
stage of life and even younger,and they're fathering young men,
they're fathering girls. And Iwould just encourage you, that
you would give them the love,give your children the love that
(39:13):
ultimately they deserve, theyneed, and love them the way the
Father in Heaven loves you,which is unmerited.
Right? It's not because of whatwe do. It's undeserving.
Shaun Gartman (39:28):
Yeah.
Caleb Cole (39:28):
And yet, he pours it out. And so I would just
encourage you to love yourchildren that way. And so I've
I've been telling men a lot thislately because God's been
convicting me on it. And so mycall up for you is men with
boys, that you would hug them,that you would kiss them, that
you would tell them you lovethem. Even if it's uncomfortable
(39:48):
for you, you're getting out ofyour comfort zone.
Shaun Gartman (39:50):
Yeah.
Caleb Cole (39:51):
And you would speak words of life over them, even if
it's not what comes natural foryou. So good. Because you're
gonna have the voice like I did,saying, Don't don't give it to
them. But I believe that's anunhealthy, like, oh, I gotta
motivate them to earn somethingthat they need to hear from us.
(40:12):
And we can still motivate,right?
I still have my moments with myson where I'm like, you're
better than this. Like, do more.You know? I need you I need more
effort, more energy. You gottagive your best.
Was that your best? That wasn'tyour best. You know, I'm like,
I'm still a coach. I'm gonnacall it out when I see it. But I
also, in those moments, I'mlike, Hey, this isn't about
(40:33):
performance.
This is about your father, andhe loves you. And he sees you,
and I love you so much, I'mgonna hug you, I'm gonna give
you a kiss even if you don'tlike it, but deep down, they do.
And they long for it, they needit, and they want it. So that's
my call up.
Shaun Gartman (40:45):
So good. Sean or Brandon? Yeah, I My call up up
is to is to tap out. And what iswhat am I tapping out of? I I
know for me, my first twentyfive years of of being a
believer, I, with all my heart,believed the greatest commands.
(41:08):
To love the Lord of God with allyour heart, soul, mind, and
strength, and to love yourneighbor as yourself, man. But
during that season of my life,if you would have packaged up
how I loved myself and put it ina nice little bow and a and
wrapping and tried to give it tosomebody, they wouldn't have
opened something that they wouldhave liked. And and I just
(41:31):
remember, the day when, the loveinversion happened, and I tapped
out of trying to love God witheverything I have and trying to
love others around me like Ilove me. And I just allowed
God's love to overwhelm me andovertake me. And my call up is
(41:53):
to tap out of trying to beloving.
Mhmm. Tap out. Every singlething that's in his nature that
you're trying to do, tap out.And tap into the source, the
infinite eternal source of whohe is and ask him to pour so
much of his love into you thatit begins to just pour out of
(42:17):
you. Yeah.
And it will transform and changenot just you as a son but, for
the sons and daughters that he'sentrusted to you.
Caleb Cole (42:29):
So good.
Brandon Miller (42:31):
So mine's really simple, fellas. Just reset your
rank. Take out a piece of paperand, you know, I am, you know,
with I am and just think aboutyour rank. And I would encourage
you to put number one on thatlist, I am a son to my father in
heaven. And as many times asthat has to be reset until it is
(42:53):
firmly rooted that that's numberone, all the other all the other
things will flow under there,and they may even shift change
as your life goes.
But reset your rank and lock innumber one, and then build from
there.
Caleb Cole (43:07):
So good. Well, hey, Sean. Thanks for being with us.
Those are some amazing call ups,guys. I love this conversation,
and, I would encourage you guysto if you didn't soak all this
in, go back and listen again.
But but, ultimately, we thankyou for being a part of the Men
of Faith Podcast. Sean, was apleasure. Brandon, always an
(43:27):
honor and pleasure. But, hey,man. Onward upward.
Keep fighting the good fight.Grace and peace. We'll see you
next time.
We as as fathers, there's times where our kids
will ask us something, and andwe're we're in that place. Like,
do you think I don't? Yeah. Youknow? And so one of the bigger
shifts comes from I think a lotof us struggle with the who am I
(00:22):
question, you know?
And I I think who am I should bethe derivative of understanding
whose am I.
Caleb Cole (00:33):
You're listening to Men of Faith, the podcast
dedicated to calling men up andnot out. Join me as we live a
life dedicated to our God.Welcome back to the Men of Faith
(00:55):
podcast. I'm your host, CalebCole. I'm here with my cohost
here in season two and seasonone.
Brandon Miller is here.
Brandon Miller (01:04):
What's up, Brandon?
Caleb Cole (01:06):
Brandon, you're looking good. I actually just
really love your blue pantstoday.
Brandon Miller (01:10):
I appreciate that.
Caleb Cole (01:11):
I wanna make sure those are on camera, though.
Brandon Miller (01:13):
Those are for you. Those are for you. I'm
digging. Golf vibes.
Caleb Cole (01:17):
Yeah. You you definitely have it today. We
have a guest with us today. Thisis Sean Gartman. Sean, I've
actually known you.
We go back a ways. Brandon andyou, I know, go back a ways,
but, talk to the men of faithabout who you are, kinda what
you do. Give some context forwhy you're even on here today.
Shaun Gartman (01:38):
Well, I, you know, I have business wise, I
have been, in the computerindustry, for thirty years. So I
have a company calledCornerstone Technology. And,
but, in 2014, I followed whatthe Lord was leading, and I, I
(02:01):
went into the concessions andcreated a company called Pop It
Forward. And, and we wereteaching people to be
sustainable, throughconcessions. And so we were
coming alongside of nonprofits.
We started with YWAM, actually,and, we're teaching them how to
be sustainable using concessionsto do it. And now I have a food
(02:24):
trailer called Carnival FoodTrailer right here in
Sacramento, and it's beennominated two years in a row as
the best food truck inSacramento.
Caleb Cole (02:31):
I didn't know this until you told me this morning,
but
Shaun Gartman (02:34):
There it is.
Caleb Cole (02:34):
Congratulations. Thank you. So we wanna talk
today about mental health. Andso I would like, before we jump
in there, obviously mentalhealth is a great issue right
now in our culture
Shaun Gartman (02:47):
Yeah.
Caleb Cole (02:48):
Among men, and it's something that we really haven't
talked about, Brandon. Mean,we've alluded to it with Mhmm.
Obviously hitting other topicsthat all tie into our mental
health, but having one episodededicated to it, I think, is
important. And so I do wannahear a little bit about ministry
too, because Sean, obviously,that's what you do, like,
business wise, probably how youmake your money, but I know
(03:11):
you've done a lot of ministrythrough the years. Yeah.
And it's why we wanted to haveyou on for this topic.
Shaun Gartman (03:16):
Come
Caleb Cole (03:16):
on. Talk a little bit about ministry and what
you've done and what you'redoing now.
Shaun Gartman (03:20):
Yeah. So about six years ago, I came across a
miner ministry called Encounter.And, at this moment, the NorCal
Encounter portion is really justreaching into men. But when you
reach the man, you reach themarriage, you reach the family,
(03:42):
it's a it's a radical shift forthem. And so we you know, one of
the big things that we find,especially in encounter, is
helping, men who are trying tofigure out how they fit, who
they are, to to land in theiridentity as a son.
(04:02):
Yeah. And so that is our corething to help them settle in
their identity for who they arein Christ. And it creates a
radical transformation all theway through their family.
Caleb Cole (04:14):
And so this is a program that you do or how would
you define it?
Shaun Gartman (04:18):
It's a parachurch ministry that invites it's
incredibly ecumenical. Almostall of the encounters we have
with sixty, seventy guys,represents a huge, portion of
the body of Christ all the wayfrom Catholics all the way to
the the Charismatics, so itreaches across
Caleb Cole (04:41):
all of them. Yeah, all lines. So Brandon, I know
that you and Sean go back andyou wanted to have him on today.
I mean, I knew Sean, but Brandonwas like, hey, why don't we have
Sean Gartman on my own? That'dbe great.
So talk to me about kinda whyand and what your guys'
connection has been.
Brandon Miller (04:56):
Yeah, Sean and I met in 2014, actually. We were
in a business group together,and Sean being very outspoken
about his faith and getting toto connect on that level
together, we we would starthaving lunch. And when I would
go to lunch with Sean, it wasnot a single lunch that went by
as Sean didn't have some kind ofencouraging words, some
(05:16):
something from the scripture,something that God had put on
his heart that I would walk awayand tell people that I work
with. Yet, I went to lunch withSean today. They would just
start knowing, like, Sean.
Like, who's the guy Sean? And soI I I was invited to encounter
the ministry he's talking about.And then another ministry,
Sean's a part of, SacramentoChristian Healing Ministry Yeah.
(05:39):
And invited to participate andto, engage with that. And so on
both accounts, Sean, has been aa significant part of my own
mental health spiritual health,I would say, before mental, but
they they connect in all ways.
Yeah. And so, I thought he wouldbe someone that could speak both
(05:59):
from the standpoint of theministry to men in particular
Yes. Because those encountersare very focused on guys and
what's unique to our challenges.But I think broadly, because the
ministry that he helps to leadand facilitate the the healing
ministry does a lot of deepwork, and you hear that word a
lot now. Deep And and andsolving trauma.
(06:20):
And and I I I was part of agroup of guys that talked a lot
about different Ayahuasca andother interesting forms of deep
work and therapy. And I waslike, yeah. No. I'm gonna I'm
not I'm all good with therapy,the other one, no. But with
Sean, I he were in going downthis path, learned a lot about
(06:40):
just how we can really, support,sustain, and change things that
are a part of what we carriedinto this life and what we carry
forward and get hands on itthrough some very structured
ministry experiences.
And so I think he he has awealth to bring us in some of
those areas.
Shaun Gartman (06:57):
That's great.
Caleb Cole (06:59):
I love, you know, your guys' connection.
Obviously, Sean and I met. Imean, it was probably thirteen,
fourteen years ago now, atanother church. We got
connected. We had lunch.
Shaun Gartman (07:10):
Lot praying over you.
Caleb Cole (07:11):
Yeah. He prayed over us and was there in the early
launch of Project Church. But wehaven't kinda crossed paths in a
while, so this is fun. But I'mcurious what really hear from
both of you guys. Like, why doyou think, or what is the the
issue or the culprit as to whyso many men are struggling?
(07:32):
Struggling with mental health,struggling with purpose,
struggling with leading andleadership, struggling just
being, like, men of God. This isthe Men of Faith Podcast.
Struggling being men of faith.You know, even struggling with
with the dynamic of ofmasculinity in this culture. I
(07:54):
mean, there's so many factors,but what do you think?
If you were to narrow it down toa couple things, what do you
think is really holding menback? And then then I know you
you have something that helpsthem, and so what kind of
solution is that is thatbringing? And I wanna hear from
from both of you actually onthis.
Shaun Gartman (08:10):
Yeah. One of the things that we've added to the
encounter is we've addedsomething we call the father's
blessing and, we started by justsimply asking, you know, who
here got to pick the family youwere born into? And of I've
never had anybody raise theirhand.
Caleb Cole (08:29):
Not me.
Shaun Gartman (08:31):
But there's a lot of people who wouldn't pick the
family they were born into. Andthat leads to the next question,
and we end up at this placeafter a father's children talk
of inviting the men up, who havenever heard I love you from
their father, never heard theirfather bless them. And Wow.
(08:56):
Every time every time over halfof them stand up. Wow.
And and we're talking 70 guysand so there's there's that is
such a deep place to hearsomeone and and and it opens
them to be able to begin to hearfrom the father, the heavenly
(09:18):
father. Yeah. And so we come andso that's one of the things we
do.
Caleb Cole (09:22):
So are you saying it's fatherlessness or the lack
of love and understanding ofwhat a son what sonship, which
you addressed earlier, whatsonship looks like, and really
understanding that there is afather that loves them, because
they didn't experience itearthly, it's hard for them to
(09:44):
grasp it spiritually, and thatthe heavenly father
Shaun Gartman (09:46):
You bet. Yeah. Yeah. I Do
Caleb Cole (09:48):
you think that's the primary issue?
Shaun Gartman (09:50):
Yeah. I I know it was for me. Yeah. I I my my
mother has gotten marriedmultiple times, and, so I ended
up with three different dads,and all of them came with their
own messes and struggles. And,and so when I came to this place
where I was trying to understandthat I had a heavenly father, it
(10:13):
was a deep fight for me.
And I know for me, when itreally landed was, I began to
take Ephesians one and, insteadof reading it the way Paul wrote
it to the Ephesians, I wasreading it over myself. I made
it something incredibly personaland, and to see that I am seated
(10:37):
with Christ that the father hasalways had a plan for me and his
plan was for good and it was forme to be in Christ has Ephesians
more than any other book in thebible has completely transformed
the way I see the father veryspecifically.
Caleb Cole (10:56):
I love that. Brandon, what do you think?
Brandon Miller (10:59):
Yeah. I would say in my own journey, and I'll
I'll connect Sean to this partof the journey, I I think for
those of us that want to serveGod, we want to please him, but
in the back of our heads,there's this voice, this
antagonistic, I'm doing itwrong, I'm messing it up, I'm
and and it's it's guilt laden,shame laden, it's filled with,
(11:22):
I'm not measuring up, I'm notI'm not stacking up. And the
amount of men out there thatjust kinda just feel a step back
and whether we're we'repretending like we're ahead and
it's all together, we're good,but it but the avoidance of
drawing near, hearing thefather's voice and being willing
to walk in step was somethingthat I personally had to to
(11:44):
wrestle with. Why is it that myversion of God's voice was so
harsh? Why was it why was it soYeah.
Why did it feel so condemning?Why did I why did I believe that
that's how I would be spoken toin Christ? And so I feel like
what what Sean and othersthrough the ministries that they
do help guys connect to is backto what is that authentic voice
(12:06):
to us in Christ, and how howdoes it sound? And you mentioned
Ephesians because Sean asked meto read a book at one point.
It's called Sit Walk Stand byWatchman Knee.
And he said, just listen to thefirst chapter. Put it on repeat
and listen to it. And so it'sthis idea of sitting. And and
the whole point was Mhmm. Beforeyou go and do anything, you have
to know who you are.
(12:27):
You're seated with Christ in theheavenlies if you're
Shaun Gartman (12:29):
a Christian.
Brandon Miller (12:29):
And if you don't get that part, then when it's
time to go do the stuff, thewalking and the, you know, the
standing and going, and now yougotta battle and you gotta get
out there, if that isn't firm,if your identity is not firm,
you're getting crushed outthere. Yeah. You're gonna you're
gonna you're gonna come backbloody, beaten, bruised, and
you're gonna think it's Goddoing it to you. Yeah. But in
reality, this world and the thethe forces of darkness, they're
(12:53):
gonna beat the snot out of youif you can't Yeah.
Come back to, no. Who who am I?So that was one. But then I have
to say number two, and this, Ithink, comes back to just how do
you take what you've learned andunderstand if it doesn't go
towards something, if you're notmoving toward a mission, if
there if you haven't joined inthis great mission, then you're
(13:16):
gonna get stagnant and stale.You're gonna you're gonna find
yourself floundering.
And I think that was a big partof what I had to come to terms
with in my own journey is I hadreversed those two in my own
walk. I was trying to to performmy way into God's Right. You
know, favor. I was trying to doall the stuff Yeah. Without
first going, no.
I gotta I gotta sit here, be whohe said, and then then watch it
(13:41):
go. Because now now missionprecedes relationship. It it
follows relationship.
Caleb Cole (13:46):
Yeah. I think being a father, you know, I've learned
just the power of what you bothare talking about right now.
Yeah. Because we see it in ourchildren, just the longing for
affirmation and acceptance Yeah.And love.
My oldest one is the the mostclear indicator for me. You
(14:08):
know, he he just wants myapproval so much and longs to be
affirmed. I mean, literallyyesterday, we're driving in the
car, and he's talking about he'son the golf team now. He's
talking about golf and how he'shitting the ball while he's
like, I'm pretty good at golf.Am I, dad?
And, like, it was such a weirdthing for him to he, like, made
(14:33):
a declaration about himself, andthen said, Am I dad? Like, am I
good? And I'm like, Yeah, you'regood, bro. But I'm like, Why are
you asking me? You just said youwere.
He's like, well, I just wantedto see if you thought I was.
Mhmm. You know? And I and I Ifelt that, like, deep in my
heart in the moment of, like,man, he just wants to be
(14:56):
accepted, affirmed, loved,approved of. And how many men
never got that from a father.
Never. And then they they don'tknow how to receive that from a
heavenly father because it isall, like you said, Brandon,
it's about achieving, and thenGod approves of us. And when we
fail, it's Him that did it tous. So He actually doesn't just
(15:20):
disapprove of us, He crushed usbecause of how much we don't
measure up. Right.
So he caused the failure. And,you know, being a father, I'm
just reminded how much more sonsneed to understand how loved
they are, how approved they are
Shaun Gartman (15:41):
Yeah.
Caleb Cole (15:41):
How accepted they are, affirmed they are. And so,
I mean, this will be my call upat the end, I guess, but those
of us that are fathers and havethe opportunity still to parent
young men, but also girls,right, that we would give them
what they not only need butdeserve, should receive. As
(16:03):
sons, we deserve that. We shouldreceive that. But we suck as
fathers, so we don't know how togive it because we didn't get it
ourselves.
Shaun Gartman (16:10):
Yeah.
Caleb Cole (16:11):
But ultimately, I think we're a generation that is
fatherless or didn't receive thelove affirmation, encouragement
that we should have growing up,So that's why half the room
stands up and says, My dad nevertold me he loved me. Yeah. My
dad never told me he was proudof me, you know? Or, I didn't
even have a father to do that.Yeah.
(16:31):
And then we wonder why theycan't connect with the heavenly
father. And how much of this istied to mental health, actually?
Shaun Gartman (16:38):
Well, I'll tag off of, one of the words that
you just said, which is deserve.And, you know, I mean, during my
what I call my performance yearswhere I'm doing this for God.
I'm doing it for my dad. I'mdoing it to show that I'm worthy
and and then you'd land in thisplace where something bad would
(16:59):
happen and you would immediatelythink, well, because I did this
or Yeah. At this this failuremeans I deserve this and you
have something miss, you know,killing you
Caleb Cole (17:15):
Yeah.
Shaun Gartman (17:16):
And you think that you earned every bit of it.
And, you know, going back toEphesians right there in
Ephesians one, there's this oneI remember the first time I just
started to beef jerky chew onthis one thing. It says that the
father sees me as perfect andholy. And, every once in a while
(17:40):
you'll you'll land on a piece ofscripture and you're like, well,
how does that work?
Caleb Cole (17:45):
Yeah.
Shaun Gartman (17:46):
And, because I have so much demands on myself,
I have so much perfection inperfectionism and I've got to do
this perfect. And, I justremember when the father said,
the reason I see you, Sean, asperfect and holy is because I
(18:08):
see you through my son. I seeyou through the blood of my son
and and it it just transformedand changed and it it wasn't an
overnight transformation but,it's, it's beautiful watching,
(18:30):
men step from that I gotta dothis for you God to I get to do
this with you.
Caleb Cole (18:38):
Yeah.
Shaun Gartman (18:39):
And it's it's a big transition.
Caleb Cole (18:42):
Oh, love that. That's powerful.
Shaun Gartman (18:43):
Come on.
Caleb Cole (18:44):
Just just how God sees us.
Shaun Gartman (18:47):
Yeah.
Caleb Cole (18:48):
And it's much better than we see ourselves.
Shaun Gartman (18:50):
Come on. Well, and I love I love what you just
said about your son because itwe as as fathers, there's times
where our kids will ask ussomething and and we're we're in
that place like, do you think Idon't? Yeah. You know? And so
(19:12):
one of the bigger shifts comesfrom I think a lot of us
struggle with the who am Iquestion, you know?
And I I think who am I should bethe derivative of understanding
whose am I. Mhmm. And when youfully grasp that that you
(19:33):
belong, you belong, the fatherhas fully accepted you because
of Christ.
Caleb Cole (19:39):
Yeah. We're changing the topic of this episode to
sonship. What does it mean to bea son and a father? And a
spiritual father or an earthlyfather, if we are that? Yeah.
But also understanding ourheavenly father. You know? Like,
that's essentially where thishas gone. And probably if we got
this right, we would have a lotless mental health issues.
Brandon Miller (20:01):
Well, think about it. You know, in in the
work that my company does, thethe topic of psychological
safety comes up a lot.
Shaun Gartman (20:07):
Yeah.
Brandon Miller (20:07):
And when you think about where are we most
safe in Christ Yeah. And wheredo we feel secure, and where do
we feel
Shaun Gartman (20:14):
Yeah.
Brandon Miller (20:14):
That we're in a place of health and strength? So
when we are anxious, when wehave fear, when we have doubts,
when we're feeling out of sorts,it's it's the fallback position
of, no, but I know I know thesetruths and I rely on these
truths because that's that's howI see my way through. And so I I
(20:36):
would agree with you thatthere's a very strong link
between our mental health spaceand our sonship and our security
and and our recognition of whathe has done and who we are in
him.
Caleb Cole (20:48):
Yeah. Yeah. I don't think identity is something
we've talked a lot about in ourpodcast, the men of faith. But
essentially, that's what we'readdressing right now.
Shaun Gartman (20:57):
Yeah.
Caleb Cole (20:57):
Is identity, sonship Yeah. Being your identity as
men, and yet how many menwouldn't even identify that, nor
would they probably want toembrace that. I think there's a
lot of of Christians, men offaith, who are like, Sonship,
I'm grown. You know? Like, I'm agrown man.
(21:18):
I I don't need to be a, like,Don't sun me. Like, you'll hear
that. Like, that's actually asaying now, like, Oh, he's Don't
sun me. He sunned him. Like,Listen here, son.
Right. But it's like, No, that'sour identity with a heavenly
father.
Brandon Miller (21:33):
You've done this to me a lot. You when
Caleb Cole (21:35):
we just Did you?
Brandon Miller (21:36):
No. What he would do is, on multiple times
when we'd be together, he wouldsay, rank in order your
identity. Right? Yeah. And hewould and he would just hit me,
like, Rank in order.
All the things you are right nowfrom the most important down
Shaun Gartman (21:50):
Yeah.
Brandon Miller (21:50):
What are they?
Caleb Cole (21:52):
Okay. And where would you changed. Tell me the
wrong rankings. Tell me thewrong rankings and tell me the
right ranking.
Brandon Miller (21:59):
Husband, father, son, you know, son Provider.
Yeah. Provider, protector. Yes.And I meant son to my parents,
you know, brother, you know,this, uncle, there.
And and then throughconversations, it would be,
well, wait a minute. If I don'tstart with son to my father in
heaven, then all of these otherroles will suffer the
(22:21):
consequence of me being out oforder. Yeah. Yeah. Because I
won't be able to stain sustainany one of these in a powerful
positive way if I don't havefirst first things first.
Shaun Gartman (22:31):
Yeah. If your identity isn't something that's
settled Yeah. It's the root ofmost mental health problems.
Mean, we're in a society and ina culture that is you could be
whoever you want, you can bewhatever you want, you can and
(22:53):
and Yeah. We're there's a lot ofmental health crisis and if I
was looking for what is the rootof mental health crisis in a in
a in our current day, honestly,I believe it would come down to
identity.
Caleb Cole (23:10):
Identity.
Shaun Gartman (23:11):
How do I think God sees me? How do I think
people see me? How do I seemyself?
Caleb Cole (23:17):
Wow. I I think that there are probably men listening
to this right now that this isrevelatory. I think this is
there's revelation being droppedin the hearts and minds of men
right now. And I think there'sprobably, as you're on the verge
of tears and were earlier, Ijust sense that there's men
(23:40):
crying right now because they,while they're listening to this,
and I'm talking to you men whoare listening to this right now,
watching this, because you'vewrestled with who you are, whose
you are, and you've wondered whymentally I'm unhealthy, and, you
know, I struggle with worry andanxiety, and where do I belong,
and what's really my purposehere? And ultimately, it does
(24:02):
come down to this idea ofsonship.
And I think if we all would justembrace the reality of, like,
that is what's most important.Yeah. I love that you guys are
ranked that. I've never heardthat. I'm gonna start doing that
for myself, because I need toprobably have a rank check.
That's real. I'm a son first.
Brandon Miller (24:23):
Yeah. Yeah. Ranked check. That's good.
Caleb Cole (24:26):
I'm a son first.
Shaun Gartman (24:28):
Yeah.
Caleb Cole (24:28):
And from that, everything else will flow You
bet. Naturally. And I think, notperfectly, but more perfectly.
Yeah. But when I'm out of order,and I'm trying to be, what,
protector first
Shaun Gartman (24:43):
Yeah.
Caleb Cole (24:43):
Provider first, and then I feel like I'm never
enough, I'm never measuring up.Well, that's because I'm not The
number one is sonship, and I'llalways be enough. I'll always
measure up I know that there's aFather that approves of me,
loves me, accepts me, just as Iam.
Shaun Gartman (24:59):
Sees you perfect and holy.
Caleb Cole (25:00):
Yes, like my son. Am I dad? But you know what's crazy
is part of me didn't want to sayit.
Shaun Gartman (25:07):
And
Caleb Cole (25:10):
I think that was the broken part of me that was like,
didn't hear it enough myself,and if I say it, he'll get weak
or soft. And there was a part ofme that didn't want to say it.
Yeah. And I fought myself in aand it's, you know, this this is
all processing in my head in,three seconds. Yeah.
(25:33):
And I responded with a questionbecause I was like, why am I I
was still processing, why do Inot want to say it? And I said,
well, do you think you are?Yeah, I do. And I was like, I
agree. Are.
You're good. You could be great,but it takes work. That's why I
said to them, like, you could begreat, but it takes work. Right?
(25:53):
There's But you're good just howyou are.
Yeah. You're natur That's what Iwas like, you're naturally
gifted.
Shaun Gartman (25:59):
Come on.
Caleb Cole (26:00):
And I think that, you know, this is a whole other,
maybe part of this topic ofsonship, but, you know, even
those of us who had goodfathers, which I did, good
earthly father, and yet, knowingthat, like, I grew up in a
family that wasn't thataffectionate, that I love you
wasn't said as regularly. It wassaid, but it wasn't like, we
(26:23):
weren't an affectionate family.There wasn't I love yous all
over the place and affectionbeing thrown out, which is like
how my wife is now. And evenfrom her, when she's overly
affectionate towards me, tellingme how great I am and how
uncomfortable it makes me. Like,she affirms me all the time and
it always makes meuncomfortable.
Like, you don't got to say allthat. Like, I'm not that great.
(26:46):
But I've learned more from her,the heart of what I think the
Father is. Yeah. Because hewants to pour out his love on us
all the time, and I'm justwrestling, even myself, with
this idea of sonship, and am Ideserving?
So would you say, because Isaid, we talked about earlier,
deserve, deserve, like, thatfine line of how we've all been
(27:08):
parented, like tough love, andyou gotta work through it
yourself, and you know, yougotta earn it, and you gotta
work hard, and that's all true.But, do we deserve to be
encouraged and built up and lovepoured out on us every day? Does
that make us soft? I don't knowbecause I Yeah. Didn't grow up
(27:29):
in that environment, you know?
Shaun Gartman (27:30):
Yeah. For me, sonship is about abiding. I know
you talked about this yesterdayand I know this because we you
also were talking about fruit ofthe spirit and I I just know
(27:51):
that in my own performancementality for at least the first
twenty five years of my, beliefin Jesus and my walk and and
trying to be a good husband andthat it was it was always I'm
trying I I I need to be moreloving in this situation. I need
(28:13):
to be more patient in thissituation and I I finally felt
the Lord say, would you give meyour love and trade me for mine?
And I call it the tap outmoment.
Brandon Miller (28:26):
Mhmm.
Shaun Gartman (28:26):
Because I have a if if I'm the source of love, it
it's it's a shallow pool.
Brandon Miller (28:33):
Mhmm. For sure.
Shaun Gartman (28:34):
And when I when I tapped out of trying to be
loving toward my wife, towardmyself, toward others and I
tapped in to the love of God andthe fruit of his nature Mhmm.
Everything changed. Everythingchanged. And, I I I nicknamed it
(28:57):
the great love inversion, andit's where I just stopped trying
to be, including the goodthings, the patient, joyful,
gentle, compassionate, longsuffering. And, I I gave up
trying, tapped out, and tappedin, and it's been the most
(29:20):
transformational thing that'sever happened in my life.
Caleb Cole (29:23):
I love that. The, shameless plug for my sermon
yesterday, you guys can listento it on the podcast.
Shaun Gartman (29:29):
It's awesome.
Caleb Cole (29:31):
It it was, in our decrease series from because I
don't know when this episode'sgonna air, but it was April 6,
and, I talked about just knowinghis way, which is the abiding
way, and the word abide, whichhe uses 10 times in John 15
Yeah. In this 11 verse sectionof Scripture where he's talking
(29:52):
about the vine, and him beingthe vine, and we're the
branches, and apart from him, wecan do nothing, right? If we're
not plugged into the vine, whatcan we accomplish? That's what
Jesus is saying, but he uses theterm abide 10 times in these 11
verses. And the word, like whenwe translate in the Greek,
actually means to make your homein.
Shaun Gartman (30:10):
Come
Caleb Cole (30:10):
on. So when you make your home in him, and that
topic, or what you just said,reminds me of the quote that I
read yesterday to our church.David Benner, who's a
psychologist
Shaun Gartman (30:21):
Okay.
Caleb Cole (30:22):
And a spiritual director, he said, Meditation on
God's love has done more toincrease my love than decades of
effort to try to be more loving.And that quote is exactly what
you just said.
Shaun Gartman (30:34):
It's source shift.
Caleb Cole (30:35):
Yeah, the source, right? I'm trying to be more
loving. We try so hard. But hesaid, it's just meditating on
God's love that did way morefrom me learning to be more
loving. And so it's thatabiding.
I'm making my home in the vine,Jesus. And his love then shows
me how to love. It teaches mehow love, and I'm plugged into
(30:57):
that love.
Shaun Gartman (30:58):
Come on. So good. So good. So I can't wait to hear
Chrissy's version of that, samesermon, by
Caleb Cole (31:07):
the Right. It would be better. There'd be a lot more
tears. Aw. So within, you know,this this topic of sonship,
Brandon, you've you've earthlyfathered, how many sons now?
Four or five?
Brandon Miller (31:25):
I have three sons.
Caleb Cole (31:26):
Three sons. Okay. You have so many kids. I can't
keep it straight. You havegrandsons now too, though, I
think.
Brandon Miller (31:31):
Yeah.
Caleb Cole (31:32):
So three sons. What has been maybe the the biggest
need you've seen in maybe youngmen today? And I think that we
talked a little bit about thiswith Sam in his podcast where we
talked about the nextgeneration, but we didn't talk
about men or boys specifically.I know you have a son that's
(31:53):
older, but you also have twoyounger sons who are still in
high school. So what have youseen, like, as the need for this
generation that's maybe evendifferent than our generation
or, you know, generations alittle bit after us?
Brandon Miller (32:05):
It's very natural as a as a dad who
performs for a living, you know,being a business person, being
you know, growing up an athlete,growing up with a mindset of
perform or, you know, lose. It'sit's a zero sum game And life is
hard and, you know, wear ahelmet because it's gonna you're
gonna you're gonna fall, you'regonna hurt. And so with boys, I
(32:28):
found with my older one that Ihad to learn how to instill in
Lance that I loved himregardless of how he performed.
That that that was that wassomething that was
nonnegotiable. It wouldn'tchange.
I would always love him.Performance was next, and I
wanted him to do well. I wantedhim to succeed. I wanted him to
(32:49):
find purpose, find joy, allthose great things. But if I
reverse that, then Lance wouldwould constantly be striving for
something that would always beout of reach.
Because if you're performing forlove, you'll never, you don't
get it. Yes. Because what youboth just said about Abide and
so as a dad, I felt like it wasa big part of my job of rooting
him in that his father loveshim, father, and then his father
(33:12):
loves him. And that was a Ithink I think in a kid's life,
the the messages they rememberare the ones you repeat the
most. Yeah.
And so Yeah. Taking the time todo it, you know, God says in the
old testament, when you'rewalking along the roads, when
you're in the car, when you'rein your house, when you're at
your table, just reminding of ofthat you're loved. So my son,
(33:34):
Lance, you could quiz him onthis. It was, you know, what
does your dad want you to bemore than anything else in this
world? And he would say, a manof God.
Caleb Cole (33:41):
And it
Brandon Miller (33:41):
was, you know, be be rooted in that. Be rooted
in God's love because that'sthat's gonna matter more than
anything.
Caleb Cole (33:47):
Yeah. I love that. Sean, you're you've worked with
a lot of men through the years.Yeah. I know you operate as a
spiritual father Yeah.
For a lot of men. And so whatwould you say to, you know, some
of these men that are listeningright now? I think there's a lot
of men out here that arelistening, and this episode is
resonating with their heart. ButI don't know that they, probably
(34:09):
a lot of them, don't havespiritual fathers in their life,
or they haven't had an earthlyfather that's spoken to So what
would you encourage them with interms of, like, how they can
move to a place of sonship?Like, it's easy for us to say,
be a son.
Prioritize sonship. That'snumber one. But how do you do
(34:29):
that? Because I don't think weeven know how to. Yeah.
We don't know how to make thewhat do we call it? The the the
change? The ranking change? Idon't
Shaun Gartman (34:39):
know what you guys said. Yeah. Well, I for me,
I think the biggest thing thathappened because because of the
three fathers that were in mylife, my, my biological dad, my
stepdad, and my adopted father,it was always about how they see
(35:00):
me. How do how do they see me?How do they perceive me?
And am I doing enough for themto see me the way I'm wanting?
And so my my my word for you istake off your glasses of the way
you see the guy in the mirror.Take off your glasses of the way
(35:22):
you believe the father sees you,even your own earthly father,
and hand them to the Lord andlet him clean off some of the
things that that have beensmeared on there from the way
you were treated, mistreated,hurt, ignored from your own
(35:45):
father, and let him clean thoselenses to show you how he truly
sees you. And again, I I I justinvite every one of you just get
in Ephesians one and read it infirst person and and listen to
what the father is saying overyou and how he sees you. Because
(36:08):
for me, having that visionchange, the way I see myself and
the way I believe others see me,was seriously, without question,
the most transformational Yeah.
Moment in my own life.
Caleb Cole (36:24):
That's powerful. I think that we don't often take
the time to shift theperspective of even how we see
ourselves. And we don't thinkabout how negative or critical
or judgmental we see our ownlives, how we're leading, how
(36:46):
we're loving, how we'reperforming, how we're parenting.
Yeah. And it is a critical,negative, probably mental space
that a lot of us live in, in howwe are essentially leading
ourselves, but it's all rootedin how we see ourselves Yeah.
And how we think our earthlyfather saw us, other people see
(37:09):
us, and ultimately our heavenlyfather sees us. Yeah. And that
shift is hard.
Shaun Gartman (37:16):
If you're cursing the guy in the mirror or you're
hating the guy in the mirror,it's it's it's a lens you're
looking through that the fatherwants to just say, here, let me
change this. Let me clean thislens up to show you one how I
see you, as perfect and holy.Why?
Caleb Cole (37:37):
My you're
Shaun Gartman (37:38):
in Christ and I call you my son. I call you in.
You're adopted into my into mylife. And Yeah. You you you
talked a little bit about ityesterday, John 15.
John fifteen nine says, abide inmy love. This is Jesus saying
Caleb Cole (37:54):
Yeah.
Shaun Gartman (37:54):
Abide in my love as I abide in the father's love.
To me, that's that's the wholereason why I get to boldly
approach the throne. Yeah.Because the father sees me in
his son and loves me in his son,which is why he sees me as
perfect and holy.
Caleb Cole (38:14):
Yeah. I love that. Well, one thing we do here,
Sean, is we give a call up atthe end of every episode. So we
don't call men out. We call themup.
Shaun Gartman (38:25):
I love it.
Caleb Cole (38:25):
And and we believe that calling men up, you know,
to higher places, greaterthings, know, God's been doing a
lot through this podcast and inmen's lives, so I'm thankful for
it. So I'll give you a minute.Each of you think about a call
up. I'll kick us off, though,but I do wanna, I think, call up
the men, just all the men thatare parents, our fathers,
(38:50):
earthly fathers, becauseultimately, there's a lot that
listen to this podcast that arein our stage of life, or my
stage of life and even younger,and they're fathering young men,
they're fathering girls. And Iwould just encourage you, that
you would give them the love,give your children the love that
(39:13):
ultimately they deserve, theyneed, and love them the way the
Father in Heaven loves you,which is unmerited.
Right? It's not because of whatwe do. It's undeserving.
Shaun Gartman (39:28):
Yeah.
Caleb Cole (39:28):
And yet, he pours it out. And so I would just
encourage you to love yourchildren that way. And so I've
I've been telling men a lot thislately because God's been
convicting me on it. And so mycall up for you is men with
boys, that you would hug them,that you would kiss them, that
you would tell them you lovethem. Even if it's uncomfortable
(39:48):
for you, you're getting out ofyour comfort zone.
Shaun Gartman (39:50):
Yeah.
Caleb Cole (39:51):
And you would speak words of life over them, even if
it's not what comes natural foryou. So good. Because you're
gonna have the voice like I did,saying, Don't don't give it to
them. But I believe that's anunhealthy, like, oh, I gotta
motivate them to earn somethingthat they need to hear from us.
(40:12):
And we can still motivate,right?
I still have my moments with myson where I'm like, you're
better than this. Like, do more.You know? I need you I need more
effort, more energy. You gottagive your best.
Was that your best? That wasn'tyour best. You know, I'm like,
I'm still a coach. I'm gonnacall it out when I see it. But I
also, in those moments, I'mlike, Hey, this isn't about
(40:33):
performance.
This is about your father, andhe loves you. And he sees you,
and I love you so much, I'mgonna hug you, I'm gonna give
you a kiss even if you don'tlike it, but deep down, they do.
And they long for it, they needit, and they want it. So that's
my call up.
Shaun Gartman (40:45):
So good. Sean or Brandon? Yeah, I My call up up
is to is to tap out. And what iswhat am I tapping out of? I I
know for me, my first twentyfive years of of being a
believer, I, with all my heart,believed the greatest commands.
(41:08):
To love the Lord of God with allyour heart, soul, mind, and
strength, and to love yourneighbor as yourself, man. But
during that season of my life,if you would have packaged up
how I loved myself and put it ina nice little bow and a and
wrapping and tried to give it tosomebody, they wouldn't have
opened something that they wouldhave liked. And and I just
(41:31):
remember, the day when, the loveinversion happened, and I tapped
out of trying to love God witheverything I have and trying to
love others around me like Ilove me. And I just allowed
God's love to overwhelm me andovertake me. And my call up is
(41:53):
to tap out of trying to beloving.
Mhmm. Tap out. Every singlething that's in his nature that
you're trying to do, tap out.And tap into the source, the
infinite eternal source of whohe is and ask him to pour so
much of his love into you thatit begins to just pour out of
(42:17):
you. Yeah.
And it will transform and changenot just you as a son but, for
the sons and daughters that he'sentrusted to you.
Caleb Cole (42:29):
So good.
Brandon Miller (42:31):
So mine's really simple, fellas. Just reset your
rank. Take out a piece of paperand, you know, I am, you know,
with I am and just think aboutyour rank. And I would encourage
you to put number one on thatlist, I am a son to my father in
heaven. And as many times asthat has to be reset until it is
(42:53):
firmly rooted that that's numberone, all the other all the other
things will flow under there,and they may even shift change
as your life goes.
But reset your rank and lock innumber one, and then build from
there.
Caleb Cole (43:07):
So good. Well, hey, Sean. Thanks for being with us.
Those are some amazing call ups,guys. I love this conversation,
and, I would encourage you guysto if you didn't soak all this
in, go back and listen again.
But but, ultimately, we thankyou for being a part of the Men
of Faith Podcast. Sean, was apleasure. Brandon, always an
(43:27):
honor and pleasure. But, hey,man. Onward upward.
Keep fighting the good fight.Grace and peace. We'll see you
next time.
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