June 25, 2024 • 41 mins
Imagine facing the darkest moments of your life and emerging not just as a survivor, but as an advocate for others. That’s exactly what Debbie Debonair has done. In our heartfelt conversation, Debbie shares her tumultuous journey through three suicide attempts and the crushing weight of negative self-talk during motherhood. Debbie opens up about the profound impact of an inappropriate counselor-patient relationship that initially set back her progress but eventually fueled her determination and strength.
Do you have a "letting go moment" or story of change you would like to share? Or perhaps a mental health question? Feel free to message us at mentalhealthish.podcast@gmail.com if you would like to share your mental health story, something you've overcome in life. You can be our next guest! You may also be anonymous if you wish.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right.
So, hi, demi, thank you so muchfor coming on to the podcast.
I was really excited for you tocome on, because a lot of the
focus of the podcast is aroundmental health, different topics
on mental health and just prettymuch just whatever the guest
wants to share with the audience, and so thank you for being
(00:21):
here with me today, thank you somuch for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
It's a real pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Thank you.
To start off, can you introduceyourself and just tell us a
little bit about what you docurrently?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yep, I'm Debbie Debonair and I currently guide,
inspire and empower caregiversso that's nurses, teachers,
parents, carers to take backcontrol of their out of control
emotions, as well as guidingthem on getting through those
repeating life patterns thattends to be the trigger to a lot
(01:01):
of the stress and anxiety thatwe're going through.
And I do that in several ways,but the main way that I do that
is by marrying together myholistic strategies with the
essence and inspiration of thetheatrical world, all clipped
together in Mother Nature, thegreatest resource of all the
(01:23):
greatest resource of all.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Yeah, yes, thank you.
Okay, so you work a lot withcaregivers, like you said,
nurses, so they don'tnecessarily have to be like a
professional right, it could beany type of caregiver.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Absolutely, you know.
I mean caregivers is quite alarge umbrella, which I
appreciate, you know.
But there are so many peopleout there who are caregivers and
don't realize they'recaregivers, such, as, you know,
parents, grandparents, aunts anduncles, brothers and sisters,
because they just see it as well.
That's my life, you know.
(01:59):
But it can take quite a toll onpeople, you know, on people
dependent on the kind of carethat they have to give.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Definitely OK.
So what?
What made you or inspired youto want to work with the
caregiver population?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
The main inspiration was I did used to work for our
NHS over here in the UK and Isaw, you know, how the long
hours, the double shifts wereoften worked, and especially
dare I mention COVID.
(02:39):
But there were, you know, therewere really, really, really
taxed over here.
I mean taxed physically andmentally in the work that they
did.
You know it really took a lotout of nurses.
But also I'm a mum.
My own story kind of took medown a proverbial rabbit hole
(03:08):
where I ended up surviving threeattempts at suicide, and that
was purely coming from a lot ofthe negative language that was
used around me, like you're notgood enough and you know who do
you think you are, you're not afit mum, um.
So I kind of cut myself intothis toxic bubble, meaning I was
(03:32):
the toxic person and this waswhy I believed my son would be
better off if I wasn't on thisearth because I was the toxicity
in his life and um.
So I understand when you're aparent and it doesn't have to,
you know it's not necessarilymums, because dads can feel the
(03:54):
pressures as well but what itcan do is bring up past traumas
for people, Things that aregoing on like today for them as
parents can trigger somethingthat happened to them in their
past.
So they're dealing with being aparent and also dealing with
what happened to them in thepast.
(04:15):
So, yeah, so the caregivingcommunity was something that I
was really drawn to, mainlybecause of my own experience,
but also seeing you know whatwas going on around a teacher,
because I also worked in theeducation realm as well and I
saw how drained teachers were.
(04:35):
And you know, quite a few of myclients have been teachers or
are teachers as well as nurses.
You know teachers um as well asnurses, you know.
So that's why I didn't justwant to have it as somebody who
gave care in a kind of medicalformat, because it's so much
deeper than that and so muchwider than that, you know, and
(04:56):
and they all deserve um to livethe life they want to live, but
can't kind of see through thefog of what they're the work
that they're doing, because theykind of come quite far down on
the priority list because, beinga caregiver, they want to care
for other people, where if theycare for themselves first, then
(05:19):
they will be there to care forother people.
And I also really stress topeople that caring for yourself.
Loving yourself is not selfish.
It's actually selfless, becauseby looking after yourself, you
can then be there to look afterother people.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Thank you for sharing that.
And just a little bit aboutyour past, and I love this topic
because I can relate to you somuch.
I'm actually a social workerhere in California and so in a
way, it's like a caregiver roleas well, right, taking care of
other people, helping themthrough their problems, things
(06:00):
like that, and so I completelyunderstand like there's such a
high burnout rate in these.
Yeah, and I agree with you,like you you work, you know your
whole shift, right, helpingother people, and so you really
have to find that balance of,like, taking care of yourself.
Yeah, if you're a parent, I'm amom, a seven-year-old, and so I
(06:26):
completely get it right.
So, yeah, were you a nursebefore?
Is that what I'm kind of?
Speaker 2 (06:32):
getting.
I wasn't a nurse.
I was actually, um, what wecall a um support assistant.
So I was supporting nurses, butI worked with children with
complex disabilities.
So I used to go into the homesand work through the night so
(06:53):
that mum and dad could have restand respite, so basically they
could have a full night's sleep.
I would go in and look afterthem.
But I also did that in thehospital environment as well,
rather than kind of being on thenurse side of it.
But through that I actually didtrain to become my degree's in
(07:18):
disability studies.
And then I kind of went furtherinto that because of my own
experiences and became aholistic counsellor and I'm just
about to qualify as awilderness therapist.
Hey yeah, I'm so excited about.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Awesome and I'm excited for you.
And yeah, that sounds like avery even working with kids with
disabilities.
It could be a lot.
It takes a lot on a person andso it was very rewarding, very
rewarding yeah, for sure.
So, um, you mentioned that youkind of experienced your own um
(07:59):
mental health struggles, right,you mentioned the suicide
attempts, things like that.
Yeah, so did that all happenduring, like around covid, or
was that something you weregoing through already before,
and then it just kind of likeexploded.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
It was for me.
Yeah, for me it was prior tocovid.
So, and and because of what Iwent through, I was actually
there for people who needed thesupport through COVID.
So I was very fortunate in thatrespect that I'd kind of come
out of the other side of all ofmy own mental health challenges.
(08:38):
Don't get me wrong.
You know we all have mentalhealth.
You know, and it's just how wekind of prepare ourselves to
deal with what life sends.
You know what life brings ourway, and in the past I wasn't
able to do that when now?
You know, if anything comes up,I can work through it, I can
(09:01):
ask the questions, I canchallenge it through it, I can
ask the questions, I canchallenge it.
You know I won't allow it tocontrol me, which everything
controlled me in the past.
You know I was bullied from theage of eight right the way
through to the age of 40.
You know, but basically I thatI had an addiction and my
(09:25):
addiction was that I wasaddicted to victimhood mentality
and it was very difficult tocome out of that until I
realized I had something what Icall my oh shit moment, which
happened when my little boy wassix, six, seven years old, which
(09:48):
was two weeks, two, three weeksafter I failed my uh or should
I say survived my thirdattempted suicide and, um, would
you like me to share that ohshit moment?
Yeah, it's definitely yeah.
So what happened was I woke up,um, in the early hours of the
(10:10):
morning it was around about twoo'clock in the morning and I was
lay on top of the bed, verydisheveled, and I felt something
in my hand and it was an emptywine bottle, which was really
scary because, um, I still don'tdrink very often.
And what kind of reallystartled me was that my little
boy was asleep next door, in thebedroom next door, and at any
(10:33):
point in time through the nighthe could have come in and seen
the state of his moment.
My ex-husband had gone by then,so there was just me and my son
.
So I kind of sat upright in thebed, swung my legs round to
face the bedroom door, and whathappened next?
I can't put my finger on whatit is.
It wasn't a dream, because Iwas awake, so it was a vision,
(10:56):
an apparition, I don't know, butwithin seconds of me facing the
bedroom door, my little boy'sface was here.
He wasn't physically there, buthe may as well have been.
It was so clear and I stillfind this quite emotional and it
(11:16):
was just the look in my littleboy's eyes and the tears
streaming down his face thatmade me realize that my little
boy needed me.
My little boy needed his mummy,and that was the pivot for me
to go on a journey that broughtme back from the brink,
basically because I knew mylittle boy needed me in his life
(11:39):
and I wasn't the toxic personthat people led me to believe I
was.
So I went on my owntransformational journey and
through that it's why I do whatI do now, because it took me six
years to come out of the otherside and I don't want anybody to
have to take that long.
You know from being diagnosedwith clinical depression, which
(12:02):
I didn't know what clinicaldepression was and no one could
explain to me what clinicaldepression was.
So I went on a research questto find out what clinical
depression was and it was kindof you know it's an imbalanced
of chemicals in your brain whichthen kind of added or give
strength to all the.
(12:23):
You know you're sick, you'renot amounting much and all of
that.
So it kind of proved thesepeople wrong because I had a
dysfunctional brain, you know,and that's kind of where I
started from.
And then you know, because ofmy son's image, that I had all
of the time I was able to pushthrough all the push through the
negative things that used tohaunt me.
You know and I'm not saying itwas easy because it wasn't you
(12:45):
know, I had the proverbial onestep forward and a hundred steps
back, you know, but I wasdetermined to be there for my
little boy.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Yeah, thank you for sharing that story with us,
debbie.
Yeah, I can only imagine,because I have a mom too.
So I can imagine like theemotion, the impact you know
that that had.
Can you imagine like theemotion, the impact you know
that that had?
And prior to that, what had youtried that didn't work, or what
were you kind of doing beforethat to help with the clinical
(13:16):
depression?
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Was there anything that you did that didn't work?
They gave me medication and Irefused to take the medication
and then realized that, you know, I started to take it and then
I thought, well, all this isdoing is actually masking what's
going on.
I want to face what's going onso that I can get through the
(13:41):
other end.
I don't want to be reliant onthe tablets.
You know, and this is just mypersonal experience, you know,
I'm not there's no judgment herefor anyone who, you know, takes
medication for any mentalhealth challenges that they may
be going through.
This is just, you know, myexperience.
(14:02):
So I did stop them.
I actually went cold turkey, asthey say.
I didn't wean myself off them,I just went cold turkey.
And then I was sent to well, Iwas referred to a counsellor who
happened to be the priest ofthe church that I was at at the
time.
I was at at the time andunfortunately he overstepped the
(14:36):
boundaries of patient andcounsellor and it knocked me
back several stages becausebasically just repeated what had
happened before and it reallyknocked me for six.
But I was stronger then, eventhough I was still in a bad
place.
I was stronger than I had beenprior to, you know, to having
(14:58):
the tablets and prior to havingthe counselling.
And I did learn a lot from himand you know some of the
techniques that he used did workfor me.
But that stage of it justcompletely knocked me back.
But I was determined and I saidone side.
(15:18):
Once I was getting stronger andstronger and I got to the point
where I'd come out of the otherend, I actually said nobody, no
one in the world, will ever getme back to that place again,
ever.
And two years ago I actuallywalked away from a 16-year toxic
relationship because I couldjust see where it was going and
(15:42):
where it was taking me and Iwasn't prepared to go there
again.
I wouldn't have been able to dothat if that had happened way
back then, you know.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Well, kudos to you on leaving the toxic relationship
Okay.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
It wasn't easy.
It took me a good three, fouryears to actually pluck up the
courage to do that.
Four years to to actually pluckup the courage to do that, you
know, um, but it just it got tothat point where it was either
walk away or crumble and spiralback down and I wasn't prepared
to do that for anybody.
(16:17):
And nobody should, nobodyshould be, you know, prepared to
allow anybody to trample onthem like that.
I know it's hard when you're init, you know, but there is a
way to walk out.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Yeah, definitely, yeah, Okay.
So let's go back to the momentthat you realized, okay, like
you had that vision, right,that's your son and you want it.
You're like ready.
What came for you after that?
What happened?
Speaker 2 (16:50):
And when I had the vision and I thought right, what
do I need to do to make abetter life for me and my son?
So I researched.
A lot of things came across,some information about the
(17:12):
relationship between the brainand the heart and the fact that
the heart sends more messages tothe brain than the brain does
to the heart.
So I then studied the heartmath principles.
I don't know whether you'veheard of heart math.
It is an American academy.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
No, it's not.
I'd say yeah, it is an AmericanInstitute.
Sounds very interesting.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Yeah, so I, you know I researched them and I actually
studied with them and I becamea heart math coach.
So part of what I do is I teachpeople how to build and
strengthen emotional resilienceand resilience all told and
through that, I do a lot ofheart brain coherence and it's
(18:00):
all about helping them to gettheir heart rate variable
balanced and finding coherencein their thoughts, their actions
, their words, their emotions,and I take them through a
process that you know helps themto be resilient by the end of
(18:20):
it, so that you know when lifechallenges come, they can.
You know they have the toolsand the techniques to
potentially overcome it.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Yeah, that sounds interesting.
So balancing the heart is whatyou say, right?
Yeah, it is.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
I mean, yeah, when a person is stressed, their heart
beats a lot faster.
So if you can imagine, you knowthe machines you have in a
hospital and it's going beep,beep, beep, beep, beep and
somebody kind of gets stressedand it'll go beep, beep, beep,
beep, beep, beep.
So the heart rate variable isthe time it takes between the
(19:06):
breaths.
So when you are stressed, yourheart beating really fast and
you are breathing really fast aswell, so you're not taking
enough oxygen in.
So this is why your heart'sgoing kind of like this.
Um, so it's a way of of bringingthat heart rate variable down
(19:27):
so that it's not putting thestress on your heart, because,
um, when we are are stressed,it's not just um, something that
has an effect on our physio, onour psychology, but it also has
an effect on our physiology.
And one of the um, one of thethings that I use when I'm
(19:48):
talking to people, um, I oftenask them if they have a bad back
and if they're stressed oranxious or even depression,
because you hold yourselfexactly the same, in exactly the
same way.
So people who are very stressed,I mean, don't get me wrong,
there is healthy stress and youknow we, we do need stress
(20:08):
sometimes and but I'm talkingabout the, you know the the real
, real hard stress.
That's hard to deal with.
That then people, you know itkind of gets out of control and
when I ask them about do, theyhave a bad back.
The reason for that is when weare stressed or anxious or
(20:28):
depressed, it's like we'recarrying a weight on our
shoulder so we automaticallylean forward and hunch over
because we are carrying thatweight and what that does is it
puts stress on the base of thespine, because the spine wasn't
made that way.
The spine was made for you tobe straight.
So a lot of people who arestressed and anxious and
(20:50):
depressed have lower backproblems and it's because of how
you are carrying yourself in aphysiological sense oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Thank you for sharing that, because I I didn't
realize now that you mentionedthat I'm like oh my gosh, that's
so true.
Like just thinking about timeswhen I've been stressed and
things like that, I'm like, okay, I just thought I had that
posture but yes, that's what Iput mine down to until I did.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
you know, a lot of like research and doing the
heart math process really showedme how it has that effect on
your physiology, because youknow when you're stressed, your
(21:40):
heart rate, you know your heartrate rises, your breathing is
very erratic.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
And you know.
So all of that, all of those,should I say, are physiological
effects on your body.
Well, let me sit up straight.
No, but that makes completesense.
And I think also, when we'restressed, like you said, our
heart racing, we're in that likesurvival mode, right, and so a
lot of the times, people don'tmake the best decisions if
you're in survival mode, right.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
And so that that just balancing that heart, like you
said, I can imagine can be superhelpful with even making better
choices and being relaxed.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Well, secondly, you know, with stress and anxiety as
well, the way I explain it withpeople, you know, because they
say I don't know why I'm sostressed, I don't know why I'm
anxious, I don't know what'scausing my anxiety.
And a lot of it with anxiety,with stress, is that you're
stressing about the past, aboutwhat happened in the past, and a
(22:43):
lot of people live today withthe emotions of the past.
They don't belong today, theybelong in the past.
They don't belong today, theybelong in the past.
And once I've kind of had thatconversation with people and
we've worked on the triggers ofthe stress.
Um, we can leave those emotionswhere they belong, you know,
(23:07):
because we can't live our lifein this moment with emotions
from what happened to us in thepast, because they don't belong
here.
We're not in that life in thismoment with emotions from what
happened to us in the past,because they don't belong here.
We're not in that life in thismoment anymore.
And people with anxiety, a lotof anxiety, is worrying about
what might happen in the future.
We don't know what's going tohappen in the future and what
(23:31):
we're doing is we're actuallystilting our growth because we
are worried about what mighthappen in the future.
So our present life, in thispresent moment, is being
overshadowed by what mighthappen in the future and nine
times out of 10, it doesn't.
You know, you get thosebutterflies in your stomach
because you panic about whatever.
(23:51):
You know, a hospitalappointment or an interview or
something like that, and all ofthose thoughts that you're
having very rarely come true.
I'm not saying that.
I'm not saying that, you know,some of them don't.
But it's having thosetechniques to be able to balance
yourself before you go for theinterview or before you go for
(24:14):
the hospital appointment, or oreven just go outside.
You know, I have worked with alot of people who have social
anxiety.
You know, for example, oneyoung man that I had.
He was only um 16 and the onlytime he ever went out of the
house was to take his granddadshopping because he could drive.
He passed he must be about 17actually because he passed his
(24:37):
test, uh, his driving test.
He must have been at least 17,18 and he would drive his
granddad to the supermarket andstay in the car and his granddad
would go and do the shopping,bring it back, put it in the
boot, get back in the car and dothe shopping, bring it back,
put it in the boot, get back inthe car and then the boy would
drive, the young man would drivehome.
So, going through the work thatI did with him, he not only got
(25:02):
in the car and went to thesupermarket and went in the
supermarket with his granddad,he actually ended up taking his
uncle's dog for a walk every dayand that was huge.
From where he'd come from, youknow, he couldn't go out with
his granddad without beingphysically sick before he went
out.
So this, you know, thesetechniques are really really
(25:24):
powerful.
You know when, when, the when,when I can, when I take people
through them, they're reallyreally powerful.
And you know that's astandalone thing.
But I also intersperse thatwith my other um, my holistic um
, therapies and the wilderness.
You know they can all interlockwith each other because
(25:45):
everybody's different and noteverything works for everybody,
you know.
So I have quite a toolkit thatI call upon, depending on the
individual.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Yeah, yeah, I was looking at that.
You have a lot of differentthings that you do to help other
people, yeah, and can you talka little bit more about the
wilderness stuff that you do?
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Yeah, my wilderness therapy it's not like forest
bathing, ok, even though forestbathing is therapeutic, you know
(26:41):
, it's more about using thewilderness as a metaphor for
specific mental health issues.
So it, you know, using usingthings, um, to help with
behavior, using things to bemore sociable.
So it's, we can do it on aone-to-one, but it's actually
more powerful done in a group,because it's all about building
trust, know, and so we use thetrees a lot because the trees
actually trust each other.
And what trees do that peopledon't realize is their roots
(27:01):
under the ground, create a kindof worldwide web, and they're
all interlocked.
They share chemicals with eachother, so they basically look
after each other.
So bringing people together ina woodland, in amongst the trees
, it's kind of like a win-win,because trees give off carbon
(27:24):
dioxide Sorry, trees give offoxygen, which is what we need.
We give off carbon dioxide,which the trees need.
So I build that as a kind of arelationship and between us and
the trees, but also that then ummoves forward to building that
trust and relationship withinthe group.
(27:46):
Um, and there's there's just somany different ways of of using
the wilderness.
You know, things like somethingas simple as a fur cone.
If you think about having sixfur cones in front of you, or
even three fur cones in front ofyou, one may be closed, one may
be slightly open and one may beopen completely, and I use that
(28:08):
as an emotional guidance.
So do you feel closed in, youknow?
Do you feel kind of somewherein the middle or are you, you
know, quite kind of open andfeel relaxed?
Or you know, or are you Becausesometimes that can also show
(28:30):
kind of anxiety, because in someways, when people are anxious,
they're using a lot ofadrenaline, you know.
So they are quite euphoric.
So to them this open fur conerepresents them because they're
euphoric as opposed to, you know, just not just being happy.
(28:52):
But if we are euphoricconstantly, that has a detriment
on our physical and mentalhealth.
Again, if we are closed and inthat depressed state all of the
time, that has a detrimentaleffect on our physical and
mental health as well.
So that's kind of just givingyou an example of how I use the
(29:14):
wilderness, but there's so manyother ways we use the wilderness
.
But it's a metaphor to supportpeople with different and
challenging mental health issues.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Yeah, I love that because a lot of people have a
hard time putting into words,like how they're feeling, or
they just don't know how todescribe it, and just having
that visual visual to help themright yeah, kind of absolutely
what they're feeling or howthey're feeling.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
It sounds really helpful yeah, and one of the
things I also do is, um, I go,um I send them out into the
woodland and ask them to bring aleaf back, and most leaves that
I've well, the leaf.
What I've said to them is goand find a leaf that has like
fingers, shall we say, wherethere's gaps in between, you
(30:08):
know.
So it's not a solid leaf, it'sa leaf that's open, a bit like a
sycamore leaf.
Um, because what that does isthey know all about these bits,
because that's the things thatthey're dealing with every day.
What they're not so sure of iswhat's happening in the spaces
(30:31):
in between, and they're the bitsthat we work on, because the
things that that they're dealingwith every single day, could
you know, may not necessarily bethe triggers for their stress
and anxiety.
Those triggers, potentially,could be in the spaces.
(30:53):
So it's what they believe isgoing on in the spaces.
When we're talking about leads,and this is how we use things
as metaphors.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Yeah, that sounds really helpful and just amazing
and also fun.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Right, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And what I tend I've kind ofgot a bit of a quirky bit on the
end of my wilderness therapyand that is because I bring in
the marriage of the essence andinspiration of a theatrical
world.
So when we are stood in theopen clearing in the woodland,
(31:33):
that is actually a stage, but itrepresents their life.
So it's their own life stagethat they're stepping onto.
And I talk about going, youknow, stage, left, stage, right,
upstage, downstage, boring offthe stage, and the power is it
actually getting back up in?
You know, back up on the stage,and the power is it actually
getting back up in?
You know, back up on the stage.
(31:54):
And I talk a lot about, youknow, um, the people that they
meet every day are thecharacters in their life.
Every day is a scene in theirlife and at any given moment
they can rewrite their lifescript.
Now, when we use the wildernessand the woodland to create that,
(32:15):
they find it a lot easier toexpress themselves, because a
lot of people who are dealingwith mental health challenges,
like you said, find it difficultto express themselves
(32:36):
themselves.
So using the essence andinspiration of the theatrical
world means they can use othergenres to express how they're
feeling.
For example, you know, theycould go out into the woodland
and find a twig, for example,and that twig might be still
alive and all its leaves aredripping down.
But that is how they arefeeling and they can express
(33:01):
that by.
This is how I'm feeling, andthen I just, you know, ask the
questions.
You know what does that mean toyou?
You know, and that's how theycan then express themselves a
little further with words, bytalking about the twig of leaves
that they've got in their hand,because it detaches them a
(33:23):
little bit from themselves.
So they're really describingthe leaf that, you know, the
twig with the leaves on it,rather than, um, describing
themselves, even though they aredescribing themselves, but for
then they've kind of like,separated themselves from it,
you know.
And then what I do is I kind ofbring the two together and they
can see how that representsthem even more.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Oh, that's the hard guy.
That's like so clever and sosmart.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
To be honest, it was something that my own safe space
was for me.
To go out into the woodlands,out into the wilderness.
I felt safer out in thewilderness than I did in my own
house around, you know, thepeople who loved me.
I actually felt safer on my ownin amongst the trees, you know,
(34:18):
and I just get so much out ofit every single day.
Every single day.
I make sure at some point inthe day I go out and just kind
of get replenished by thewilderness and Mother Nature and
what she can offer me.
You know, and I do talk totrees, Don't just hug them, I
talk to them as well.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
Yeah, just being outside is like so good for your
mental health.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
And you know and it's talking about things like you
know especially if you couldfind a woodland that has a
stream.
You know, I actually put a postout on Facebook the other day
about you know, how do you feel?
Are you the rushing river whereyou know your life's all over
the place and you can't stop it,it's out of control?
(35:03):
Or are you the waterfall whereit washes down and then just
sails away and you just let itgo?
Or are you flowing at quite anice pace?
You know what?
What stream would you like tobe?
You know what stream are younow and what stream would you
like to be?
You know we are all.
You know I talk about the oceanand being on the ocean.
(35:24):
You know what kind of ocean?
Where would you like the wavesto to ride?
You know riding the waves,where would you like to ride to,
and things like that.
So you know, it's not justwoods and trees, because mother
nature encompasses quite a lot,including, you know, the clouds
and the stars and the earth.
We do do a lot of groundingwith the earth, with the
physical earth, with peopleawesome.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
So it sounds like that you do like such great work
and you're helping so manypeople and, um, yeah, like thank
you for being here and doing.
Thank you, if there's any anytakeaway that the listeners
could take away from listeningto this episode.
What is one of the things ortakeaways that you would want
(36:10):
listeners to take with them?
Speaker 2 (36:13):
There is quite a few actually, but the one where you
know is realizing that you knowyou are able to stand in your
own spotlight on your own lifestage.
You know we are like I saidearlier.
You know you step out every dayonto your own life stage stage
(36:35):
right, stage left, upstage,downstage.
You know you can fall off, justget back up again.
You know you can change thescenes in your life.
You know it's all about choice,and one of the things I'd like
to leave them with is to do withchoice, and it is choose life,
choose freedom, but most of allchoose you.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Awesome.
Thank you so much for thosewords, those words of
inspiration, and once again, Iappreciate this conversation
with you.
I feel like I learned so much.
There's never enough learning,there's always something to
learn, and I appreciate youbeing here.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Thank you so much.
And through what I went throughmyself, thank you so much.
(37:56):
And you know through what Iwent through myself.
I actually just to share thiswith you.
I had a dream about nine yearsago that I curated, called Alive
to Thrive Life After FailingSuicide Our Stories, and it was
so.
I mean it was quite arollercoaster journey, but for a
lot of the women who were inthe book the book, myself
included it was a very healingprocess as well.
Um, so, yeah, so the book's outthere for for anyone, um, over
the age of 18 who you know wouldlike to to to purchase it.
(38:19):
It's on amazon.
I was going to ask where can we?
Yeah, it's on Amazon and it'son all of the online bookstores,
but I always kind of say Amazonbecause everybody recognizes
Amazon and so it's in.
You know Waterstones and all ofthe, you know Bairns and Noble
(38:40):
and all of them.
They can get them online.
Awesome, thank you, I'lldefinitely be checking that them
online.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Awesome, thank you.
I'll definitely be checkingthat book out.
It sounds really interesting.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
It's a very, very powerful book.
It's not an easy read, as youcan imagine, but it is a very
powerful book because it's aboutbeing alive to thrive and you
know, had we all not been here,we wouldn't be thriving today.
And that's the important thingyou know, to express to people
that suicide isn't the answer.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Well, debbie, and thank you for being here and
sharing your story with us, andjust all the resources,
everything that you do.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
It sounds like amazing work and everyone please
make sure to go check out herbook, available on Amazon, and
then also your podcast, well,yeah, I have a podcast that I
launched in january called wildheart wisdom and um, it's a lot
(39:38):
of um, you know, teaching abouthow nature helps, but also
meditation, because I'm atrained meditation teacher, so
there's meditations on there.
There's tips and techniques forself-love and self-care on
there, um, yeah, and there'sthere's episodes go on every
week um, because I just, likeyou know, I just give as much as
(40:01):
I possibly can, but um, also,my website is actually it's not
under construction, it'sactually evolving.
So you may not be able to geton my website just yet, but have
patience because what's comingis absolutely beautiful, because
(40:21):
I'm creating something calledWild Heart Haven, which is going
to be a community where peoplecan access a lot of the work
that I do for a very, veryreasonable membership.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Oh, thank you, Debbie , it was a pleasure speaking
with you.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Thank you so much.
You know, I just really want toiterate to people out there, to
you know, really do choose life, choose freedom and, most of
all, choose yourself.
You are the most importantthing.
All right.
So, hi, demi, thank you so muchfor coming on to the podcast.
I was really excited for you tocome on, because a lot of the
focus of the podcast is aroundmental health, different topics
on mental health and just prettymuch just whatever the guest
wants to share with the audience, and so thank you for being
(00:21):
here with me today, thank you somuch for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
It's a real pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Thank you.
To start off, can you introduceyourself and just tell us a
little bit about what you docurrently?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yep, I'm Debbie Debonair and I currently guide,
inspire and empower caregiversso that's nurses, teachers,
parents, carers to take backcontrol of their out of control
emotions, as well as guidingthem on getting through those
repeating life patterns thattends to be the trigger to a lot
(01:01):
of the stress and anxiety thatwe're going through.
And I do that in several ways,but the main way that I do that
is by marrying together myholistic strategies with the
essence and inspiration of thetheatrical world, all clipped
together in Mother Nature, thegreatest resource of all the
(01:23):
greatest resource of all.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Yeah, yes, thank you.
Okay, so you work a lot withcaregivers, like you said,
nurses, so they don'tnecessarily have to be like a
professional right, it could beany type of caregiver.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Absolutely, you know.
I mean caregivers is quite alarge umbrella, which I
appreciate, you know.
But there are so many peopleout there who are caregivers and
don't realize they'recaregivers, such, as, you know,
parents, grandparents, aunts anduncles, brothers and sisters,
because they just see it as well.
That's my life, you know.
(01:59):
But it can take quite a toll onpeople, you know, on people
dependent on the kind of carethat they have to give.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Definitely OK.
So what?
What made you or inspired youto want to work with the
caregiver population?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
The main inspiration was I did used to work for our
NHS over here in the UK and Isaw, you know, how the long
hours, the double shifts wereoften worked, and especially
dare I mention COVID.
(02:39):
But there were, you know, therewere really, really, really
taxed over here.
I mean taxed physically andmentally in the work that they
did.
You know it really took a lotout of nurses.
But also I'm a mum.
My own story kind of took medown a proverbial rabbit hole
(03:08):
where I ended up surviving threeattempts at suicide, and that
was purely coming from a lot ofthe negative language that was
used around me, like you're notgood enough and you know who do
you think you are, you're not afit mum, um.
So I kind of cut myself intothis toxic bubble, meaning I was
(03:32):
the toxic person and this waswhy I believed my son would be
better off if I wasn't on thisearth because I was the toxicity
in his life and um.
So I understand when you're aparent and it doesn't have to,
you know it's not necessarilymums, because dads can feel the
(03:54):
pressures as well but what itcan do is bring up past traumas
for people, Things that aregoing on like today for them as
parents can trigger somethingthat happened to them in their
past.
So they're dealing with being aparent and also dealing with
what happened to them in thepast.
(04:15):
So, yeah, so the caregivingcommunity was something that I
was really drawn to, mainlybecause of my own experience,
but also seeing you know whatwas going on around a teacher,
because I also worked in theeducation realm as well and I
saw how drained teachers were.
(04:35):
And you know, quite a few of myclients have been teachers or
are teachers as well as nurses.
You know teachers um as well asnurses, you know.
So that's why I didn't justwant to have it as somebody who
gave care in a kind of medicalformat, because it's so much
deeper than that and so muchwider than that, you know, and
(04:56):
and they all deserve um to livethe life they want to live, but
can't kind of see through thefog of what they're the work
that they're doing, because theykind of come quite far down on
the priority list because, beinga caregiver, they want to care
for other people, where if theycare for themselves first, then
(05:19):
they will be there to care forother people.
And I also really stress topeople that caring for yourself.
Loving yourself is not selfish.
It's actually selfless, becauseby looking after yourself, you
can then be there to look afterother people.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Thank you for sharing that.
And just a little bit aboutyour past, and I love this topic
because I can relate to you somuch.
I'm actually a social workerhere in California and so in a
way, it's like a caregiver roleas well, right, taking care of
other people, helping themthrough their problems, things
(06:00):
like that, and so I completelyunderstand like there's such a
high burnout rate in these.
Yeah, and I agree with you,like you you work, you know your
whole shift, right, helpingother people, and so you really
have to find that balance of,like, taking care of yourself.
Yeah, if you're a parent, I'm amom, a seven-year-old, and so I
(06:26):
completely get it right.
So, yeah, were you a nursebefore?
Is that what I'm kind of?
Speaker 2 (06:32):
getting.
I wasn't a nurse.
I was actually, um, what wecall a um support assistant.
So I was supporting nurses, butI worked with children with
complex disabilities.
So I used to go into the homesand work through the night so
(06:53):
that mum and dad could have restand respite, so basically they
could have a full night's sleep.
I would go in and look afterthem.
But I also did that in thehospital environment as well,
rather than kind of being on thenurse side of it.
But through that I actually didtrain to become my degree's in
(07:18):
disability studies.
And then I kind of went furtherinto that because of my own
experiences and became aholistic counsellor and I'm just
about to qualify as awilderness therapist.
Hey yeah, I'm so excited about.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Awesome and I'm excited for you.
And yeah, that sounds like avery even working with kids with
disabilities.
It could be a lot.
It takes a lot on a person andso it was very rewarding, very
rewarding yeah, for sure.
So, um, you mentioned that youkind of experienced your own um
(07:59):
mental health struggles, right,you mentioned the suicide
attempts, things like that.
Yeah, so did that all happenduring, like around covid, or
was that something you weregoing through already before,
and then it just kind of likeexploded.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
It was for me.
Yeah, for me it was prior tocovid.
So, and and because of what Iwent through, I was actually
there for people who needed thesupport through COVID.
So I was very fortunate in thatrespect that I'd kind of come
out of the other side of all ofmy own mental health challenges.
(08:38):
Don't get me wrong.
You know we all have mentalhealth.
You know, and it's just how wekind of prepare ourselves to
deal with what life sends.
You know what life brings ourway, and in the past I wasn't
able to do that when now?
You know, if anything comes up,I can work through it, I can
(09:01):
ask the questions, I canchallenge it through it, I can
ask the questions, I canchallenge it.
You know I won't allow it tocontrol me, which everything
controlled me in the past.
You know I was bullied from theage of eight right the way
through to the age of 40.
You know, but basically I thatI had an addiction and my
(09:25):
addiction was that I wasaddicted to victimhood mentality
and it was very difficult tocome out of that until I
realized I had something what Icall my oh shit moment, which
happened when my little boy wassix, six, seven years old, which
(09:48):
was two weeks, two, three weeksafter I failed my uh or should
I say survived my thirdattempted suicide and, um, would
you like me to share that ohshit moment?
Yeah, it's definitely yeah.
So what happened was I woke up,um, in the early hours of the
(10:10):
morning it was around about twoo'clock in the morning and I was
lay on top of the bed, verydisheveled, and I felt something
in my hand and it was an emptywine bottle, which was really
scary because, um, I still don'tdrink very often.
And what kind of reallystartled me was that my little
boy was asleep next door, in thebedroom next door, and at any
(10:33):
point in time through the nighthe could have come in and seen
the state of his moment.
My ex-husband had gone by then,so there was just me and my son
.
So I kind of sat upright in thebed, swung my legs round to
face the bedroom door, and whathappened next?
I can't put my finger on whatit is.
It wasn't a dream, because Iwas awake, so it was a vision,
(10:56):
an apparition, I don't know, butwithin seconds of me facing the
bedroom door, my little boy'sface was here.
He wasn't physically there, buthe may as well have been.
It was so clear and I stillfind this quite emotional and it
(11:16):
was just the look in my littleboy's eyes and the tears
streaming down his face thatmade me realize that my little
boy needed me.
My little boy needed his mummy,and that was the pivot for me
to go on a journey that broughtme back from the brink,
basically because I knew mylittle boy needed me in his life
(11:39):
and I wasn't the toxic personthat people led me to believe I
was.
So I went on my owntransformational journey and
through that it's why I do whatI do now, because it took me six
years to come out of the otherside and I don't want anybody to
have to take that long.
You know from being diagnosedwith clinical depression, which
(12:02):
I didn't know what clinicaldepression was and no one could
explain to me what clinicaldepression was.
So I went on a research questto find out what clinical
depression was and it was kindof you know it's an imbalanced
of chemicals in your brain whichthen kind of added or give
strength to all the.
(12:23):
You know you're sick, you'renot amounting much and all of
that.
So it kind of proved thesepeople wrong because I had a
dysfunctional brain, you know,and that's kind of where I
started from.
And then you know, because ofmy son's image, that I had all
of the time I was able to pushthrough all the push through the
negative things that used tohaunt me.
You know and I'm not saying itwas easy because it wasn't you
(12:45):
know, I had the proverbial onestep forward and a hundred steps
back, you know, but I wasdetermined to be there for my
little boy.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Yeah, thank you for sharing that story with us,
debbie.
Yeah, I can only imagine,because I have a mom too.
So I can imagine like theemotion, the impact you know
that that had.
Can you imagine like theemotion, the impact you know
that that had?
And prior to that, what had youtried that didn't work, or what
were you kind of doing beforethat to help with the clinical
(13:16):
depression?
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Was there anything that you did that didn't work?
They gave me medication and Irefused to take the medication
and then realized that, you know, I started to take it and then
I thought, well, all this isdoing is actually masking what's
going on.
I want to face what's going onso that I can get through the
(13:41):
other end.
I don't want to be reliant onthe tablets.
You know, and this is just mypersonal experience, you know,
I'm not there's no judgment herefor anyone who, you know, takes
medication for any mentalhealth challenges that they may
be going through.
This is just, you know, myexperience.
(14:02):
So I did stop them.
I actually went cold turkey, asthey say.
I didn't wean myself off them,I just went cold turkey.
And then I was sent to well, Iwas referred to a counsellor who
happened to be the priest ofthe church that I was at at the
time.
I was at at the time andunfortunately he overstepped the
(14:36):
boundaries of patient andcounsellor and it knocked me
back several stages becausebasically just repeated what had
happened before and it reallyknocked me for six.
But I was stronger then, eventhough I was still in a bad
place.
I was stronger than I had beenprior to, you know, to having
(14:58):
the tablets and prior to havingthe counselling.
And I did learn a lot from himand you know some of the
techniques that he used did workfor me.
But that stage of it justcompletely knocked me back.
But I was determined and I saidone side.
(15:18):
Once I was getting stronger andstronger and I got to the point
where I'd come out of the otherend, I actually said nobody, no
one in the world, will ever getme back to that place again,
ever.
And two years ago I actuallywalked away from a 16-year toxic
relationship because I couldjust see where it was going and
(15:42):
where it was taking me and Iwasn't prepared to go there
again.
I wouldn't have been able to dothat if that had happened way
back then, you know.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Well, kudos to you on leaving the toxic relationship
Okay.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
It wasn't easy.
It took me a good three, fouryears to actually pluck up the
courage to do that.
Four years to to actually pluckup the courage to do that, you
know, um, but it just it got tothat point where it was either
walk away or crumble and spiralback down and I wasn't prepared
to do that for anybody.
(16:17):
And nobody should, nobodyshould be, you know, prepared to
allow anybody to trample onthem like that.
I know it's hard when you're init, you know, but there is a
way to walk out.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Yeah, definitely, yeah, Okay.
So let's go back to the momentthat you realized, okay, like
you had that vision, right,that's your son and you want it.
You're like ready.
What came for you after that?
What happened?
Speaker 2 (16:50):
And when I had the vision and I thought right, what
do I need to do to make abetter life for me and my son?
So I researched.
A lot of things came across,some information about the
(17:12):
relationship between the brainand the heart and the fact that
the heart sends more messages tothe brain than the brain does
to the heart.
So I then studied the heartmath principles.
I don't know whether you'veheard of heart math.
It is an American academy.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
No, it's not.
I'd say yeah, it is an AmericanInstitute.
Sounds very interesting.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Yeah, so I, you know I researched them and I actually
studied with them and I becamea heart math coach.
So part of what I do is I teachpeople how to build and
strengthen emotional resilienceand resilience all told and
through that, I do a lot ofheart brain coherence and it's
(18:00):
all about helping them to gettheir heart rate variable
balanced and finding coherencein their thoughts, their actions
, their words, their emotions,and I take them through a
process that you know helps themto be resilient by the end of
(18:20):
it, so that you know when lifechallenges come, they can.
You know they have the toolsand the techniques to
potentially overcome it.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Yeah, that sounds interesting.
So balancing the heart is whatyou say, right?
Yeah, it is.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
I mean, yeah, when a person is stressed, their heart
beats a lot faster.
So if you can imagine, you knowthe machines you have in a
hospital and it's going beep,beep, beep, beep, beep and
somebody kind of gets stressedand it'll go beep, beep, beep,
beep, beep, beep.
So the heart rate variable isthe time it takes between the
(19:06):
breaths.
So when you are stressed, yourheart beating really fast and
you are breathing really fast aswell, so you're not taking
enough oxygen in.
So this is why your heart'sgoing kind of like this.
Um, so it's a way of of bringingthat heart rate variable down
(19:27):
so that it's not putting thestress on your heart, because,
um, when we are are stressed,it's not just um, something that
has an effect on our physio, onour psychology, but it also has
an effect on our physiology.
And one of the um, one of thethings that I use when I'm
(19:48):
talking to people, um, I oftenask them if they have a bad back
and if they're stressed oranxious or even depression,
because you hold yourselfexactly the same, in exactly the
same way.
So people who are very stressed,I mean, don't get me wrong,
there is healthy stress and youknow we, we do need stress
(20:08):
sometimes and but I'm talkingabout the, you know the the real
, real hard stress.
That's hard to deal with.
That then people, you know itkind of gets out of control and
when I ask them about do, theyhave a bad back.
The reason for that is when weare stressed or anxious or
(20:28):
depressed, it's like we'recarrying a weight on our
shoulder so we automaticallylean forward and hunch over
because we are carrying thatweight and what that does is it
puts stress on the base of thespine, because the spine wasn't
made that way.
The spine was made for you tobe straight.
So a lot of people who arestressed and anxious and
(20:50):
depressed have lower backproblems and it's because of how
you are carrying yourself in aphysiological sense oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Thank you for sharing that, because I I didn't
realize now that you mentionedthat I'm like oh my gosh, that's
so true.
Like just thinking about timeswhen I've been stressed and
things like that, I'm like, okay, I just thought I had that
posture but yes, that's what Iput mine down to until I did.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
you know, a lot of like research and doing the
heart math process really showedme how it has that effect on
your physiology, because youknow when you're stressed, your
(21:40):
heart rate, you know your heartrate rises, your breathing is
very erratic.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
And you know.
So all of that, all of those,should I say, are physiological
effects on your body.
Well, let me sit up straight.
No, but that makes completesense.
And I think also, when we'restressed, like you said, our
heart racing, we're in that likesurvival mode, right, and so a
lot of the times, people don'tmake the best decisions if
you're in survival mode, right.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
And so that that just balancing that heart, like you
said, I can imagine can be superhelpful with even making better
choices and being relaxed.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Well, secondly, you know, with stress and anxiety as
well, the way I explain it withpeople, you know, because they
say I don't know why I'm sostressed, I don't know why I'm
anxious, I don't know what'scausing my anxiety.
And a lot of it with anxiety,with stress, is that you're
stressing about the past, aboutwhat happened in the past, and a
(22:43):
lot of people live today withthe emotions of the past.
They don't belong today, theybelong in the past.
They don't belong today, theybelong in the past.
And once I've kind of had thatconversation with people and
we've worked on the triggers ofthe stress.
Um, we can leave those emotionswhere they belong, you know,
(23:07):
because we can't live our lifein this moment with emotions
from what happened to us in thepast, because they don't belong
here.
We're not in that life in thismoment with emotions from what
happened to us in the past,because they don't belong here.
We're not in that life in thismoment anymore.
And people with anxiety, a lotof anxiety, is worrying about
what might happen in the future.
We don't know what's going tohappen in the future and what
(23:31):
we're doing is we're actuallystilting our growth because we
are worried about what mighthappen in the future.
So our present life, in thispresent moment, is being
overshadowed by what mighthappen in the future and nine
times out of 10, it doesn't.
You know, you get thosebutterflies in your stomach
because you panic about whatever.
(23:51):
You know, a hospitalappointment or an interview or
something like that, and all ofthose thoughts that you're
having very rarely come true.
I'm not saying that.
I'm not saying that, you know,some of them don't.
But it's having thosetechniques to be able to balance
yourself before you go for theinterview or before you go for
(24:14):
the hospital appointment, or oreven just go outside.
You know, I have worked with alot of people who have social
anxiety.
You know, for example, oneyoung man that I had.
He was only um 16 and the onlytime he ever went out of the
house was to take his granddadshopping because he could drive.
He passed he must be about 17actually because he passed his
(24:37):
test, uh, his driving test.
He must have been at least 17,18 and he would drive his
granddad to the supermarket andstay in the car and his granddad
would go and do the shopping,bring it back, put it in the
boot, get back in the car and dothe shopping, bring it back,
put it in the boot, get back inthe car and then the boy would
drive, the young man would drivehome.
So, going through the work thatI did with him, he not only got
(25:02):
in the car and went to thesupermarket and went in the
supermarket with his granddad,he actually ended up taking his
uncle's dog for a walk every dayand that was huge.
From where he'd come from, youknow, he couldn't go out with
his granddad without beingphysically sick before he went
out.
So this, you know, thesetechniques are really really
(25:24):
powerful.
You know when, when, the when,when I can, when I take people
through them, they're reallyreally powerful.
And you know that's astandalone thing.
But I also intersperse thatwith my other um, my holistic um
, therapies and the wilderness.
You know they can all interlockwith each other because
(25:45):
everybody's different and noteverything works for everybody,
you know.
So I have quite a toolkit thatI call upon, depending on the
individual.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Yeah, yeah, I was looking at that.
You have a lot of differentthings that you do to help other
people, yeah, and can you talka little bit more about the
wilderness stuff that you do?
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Yeah, my wilderness therapy it's not like forest
bathing, ok, even though forestbathing is therapeutic, you know
(26:41):
, it's more about using thewilderness as a metaphor for
specific mental health issues.
So it, you know, using usingthings, um, to help with
behavior, using things to bemore sociable.
So it's, we can do it on aone-to-one, but it's actually
more powerful done in a group,because it's all about building
trust, know, and so we use thetrees a lot because the trees
actually trust each other.
And what trees do that peopledon't realize is their roots
(27:01):
under the ground, create a kindof worldwide web, and they're
all interlocked.
They share chemicals with eachother, so they basically look
after each other.
So bringing people together ina woodland, in amongst the trees
, it's kind of like a win-win,because trees give off carbon
(27:24):
dioxide Sorry, trees give offoxygen, which is what we need.
We give off carbon dioxide,which the trees need.
So I build that as a kind of arelationship and between us and
the trees, but also that then ummoves forward to building that
trust and relationship withinthe group.
(27:46):
Um, and there's there's just somany different ways of of using
the wilderness.
You know, things like somethingas simple as a fur cone.
If you think about having sixfur cones in front of you, or
even three fur cones in front ofyou, one may be closed, one may
be slightly open and one may beopen completely, and I use that
(28:08):
as an emotional guidance.
So do you feel closed in, youknow?
Do you feel kind of somewherein the middle or are you, you
know, quite kind of open andfeel relaxed?
Or you know, or are you Becausesometimes that can also show
(28:30):
kind of anxiety, because in someways, when people are anxious,
they're using a lot ofadrenaline, you know.
So they are quite euphoric.
So to them this open fur conerepresents them because they're
euphoric as opposed to, you know, just not just being happy.
(28:52):
But if we are euphoricconstantly, that has a detriment
on our physical and mentalhealth.
Again, if we are closed and inthat depressed state all of the
time, that has a detrimentaleffect on our physical and
mental health as well.
So that's kind of just givingyou an example of how I use the
(29:14):
wilderness, but there's so manyother ways we use the wilderness
.
But it's a metaphor to supportpeople with different and
challenging mental health issues.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Yeah, I love that because a lot of people have a
hard time putting into words,like how they're feeling, or
they just don't know how todescribe it, and just having
that visual visual to help themright yeah, kind of absolutely
what they're feeling or howthey're feeling.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
It sounds really helpful yeah, and one of the
things I also do is, um, I go,um I send them out into the
woodland and ask them to bring aleaf back, and most leaves that
I've well, the leaf.
What I've said to them is goand find a leaf that has like
fingers, shall we say, wherethere's gaps in between, you
(30:08):
know.
So it's not a solid leaf, it'sa leaf that's open, a bit like a
sycamore leaf.
Um, because what that does isthey know all about these bits,
because that's the things thatthey're dealing with every day.
What they're not so sure of iswhat's happening in the spaces
(30:31):
in between, and they're the bitsthat we work on, because the
things that that they're dealingwith every single day, could
you know, may not necessarily bethe triggers for their stress
and anxiety.
Those triggers, potentially,could be in the spaces.
(30:53):
So it's what they believe isgoing on in the spaces.
When we're talking about leads,and this is how we use things
as metaphors.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Yeah, that sounds really helpful and just amazing
and also fun.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Right, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And what I tend I've kind ofgot a bit of a quirky bit on the
end of my wilderness therapyand that is because I bring in
the marriage of the essence andinspiration of a theatrical
world.
So when we are stood in theopen clearing in the woodland,
(31:33):
that is actually a stage, but itrepresents their life.
So it's their own life stagethat they're stepping onto.
And I talk about going, youknow, stage, left, stage, right,
upstage, downstage, boring offthe stage, and the power is it
actually getting back up in?
You know, back up on the stage,and the power is it actually
getting back up in?
You know, back up on the stage.
(31:54):
And I talk a lot about, youknow, um, the people that they
meet every day are thecharacters in their life.
Every day is a scene in theirlife and at any given moment
they can rewrite their lifescript.
Now, when we use the wildernessand the woodland to create that,
(32:15):
they find it a lot easier toexpress themselves, because a
lot of people who are dealingwith mental health challenges,
like you said, find it difficultto express themselves
(32:36):
themselves.
So using the essence andinspiration of the theatrical
world means they can use othergenres to express how they're
feeling.
For example, you know, theycould go out into the woodland
and find a twig, for example,and that twig might be still
alive and all its leaves aredripping down.
But that is how they arefeeling and they can express
(33:01):
that by.
This is how I'm feeling, andthen I just, you know, ask the
questions.
You know what does that mean toyou?
You know, and that's how theycan then express themselves a
little further with words, bytalking about the twig of leaves
that they've got in their hand,because it detaches them a
(33:23):
little bit from themselves.
So they're really describingthe leaf that, you know, the
twig with the leaves on it,rather than, um, describing
themselves, even though they aredescribing themselves, but for
then they've kind of like,separated themselves from it,
you know.
And then what I do is I kind ofbring the two together and they
can see how that representsthem even more.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Oh, that's the hard guy.
That's like so clever and sosmart.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
To be honest, it was something that my own safe space
was for me.
To go out into the woodlands,out into the wilderness.
I felt safer out in thewilderness than I did in my own
house around, you know, thepeople who loved me.
I actually felt safer on my ownin amongst the trees, you know,
(34:18):
and I just get so much out ofit every single day.
Every single day.
I make sure at some point inthe day I go out and just kind
of get replenished by thewilderness and Mother Nature and
what she can offer me.
You know, and I do talk totrees, Don't just hug them, I
talk to them as well.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
Yeah, just being outside is like so good for your
mental health.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
And you know and it's talking about things like you
know especially if you couldfind a woodland that has a
stream.
You know, I actually put a postout on Facebook the other day
about you know, how do you feel?
Are you the rushing river whereyou know your life's all over
the place and you can't stop it,it's out of control?
(35:03):
Or are you the waterfall whereit washes down and then just
sails away and you just let itgo?
Or are you flowing at quite anice pace?
You know what?
What stream would you like tobe?
You know what stream are younow and what stream would you
like to be?
You know we are all.
You know I talk about the oceanand being on the ocean.
(35:24):
You know what kind of ocean?
Where would you like the wavesto to ride?
You know riding the waves,where would you like to ride to,
and things like that.
So you know, it's not justwoods and trees, because mother
nature encompasses quite a lot,including, you know, the clouds
and the stars and the earth.
We do do a lot of groundingwith the earth, with the
physical earth, with peopleawesome.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
So it sounds like that you do like such great work
and you're helping so manypeople and, um, yeah, like thank
you for being here and doing.
Thank you, if there's any anytakeaway that the listeners
could take away from listeningto this episode.
What is one of the things ortakeaways that you would want
(36:10):
listeners to take with them?
Speaker 2 (36:13):
There is quite a few actually, but the one where you
know is realizing that you knowyou are able to stand in your
own spotlight on your own lifestage.
You know we are like I saidearlier.
You know you step out every dayonto your own life stage stage
(36:35):
right, stage left, upstage,downstage.
You know you can fall off, justget back up again.
You know you can change thescenes in your life.
You know it's all about choice,and one of the things I'd like
to leave them with is to do withchoice, and it is choose life,
choose freedom, but most of allchoose you.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Awesome.
Thank you so much for thosewords, those words of
inspiration, and once again, Iappreciate this conversation
with you.
I feel like I learned so much.
There's never enough learning,there's always something to
learn, and I appreciate youbeing here.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Thank you so much.
And through what I went throughmyself, thank you so much.
(37:56):
And you know through what Iwent through myself.
I actually just to share thiswith you.
I had a dream about nine yearsago that I curated, called Alive
to Thrive Life After FailingSuicide Our Stories, and it was
so.
I mean it was quite arollercoaster journey, but for a
lot of the women who were inthe book the book, myself
included it was a very healingprocess as well.
Um, so, yeah, so the book's outthere for for anyone, um, over
the age of 18 who you know wouldlike to to to purchase it.
(38:19):
It's on amazon.
I was going to ask where can we?
Yeah, it's on Amazon and it'son all of the online bookstores,
but I always kind of say Amazonbecause everybody recognizes
Amazon and so it's in.
You know Waterstones and all ofthe, you know Bairns and Noble
(38:40):
and all of them.
They can get them online.
Awesome, thank you, I'lldefinitely be checking that them
online.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Awesome, thank you.
I'll definitely be checkingthat book out.
It sounds really interesting.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
It's a very, very powerful book.
It's not an easy read, as youcan imagine, but it is a very
powerful book because it's aboutbeing alive to thrive and you
know, had we all not been here,we wouldn't be thriving today.
And that's the important thingyou know, to express to people
that suicide isn't the answer.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Well, debbie, and thank you for being here and
sharing your story with us, andjust all the resources,
everything that you do.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
It sounds like amazing work and everyone please
make sure to go check out herbook, available on Amazon, and
then also your podcast, well,yeah, I have a podcast that I
launched in january called wildheart wisdom and um, it's a lot
(39:38):
of um, you know, teaching abouthow nature helps, but also
meditation, because I'm atrained meditation teacher, so
there's meditations on there.
There's tips and techniques forself-love and self-care on
there, um, yeah, and there'sthere's episodes go on every
week um, because I just, likeyou know, I just give as much as
(40:01):
I possibly can, but um, also,my website is actually it's not
under construction, it'sactually evolving.
So you may not be able to geton my website just yet, but have
patience because what's comingis absolutely beautiful, because
(40:21):
I'm creating something calledWild Heart Haven, which is going
to be a community where peoplecan access a lot of the work
that I do for a very, veryreasonable membership.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Oh, thank you, Debbie , it was a pleasure speaking
with you.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Thank you so much.
You know, I just really want toiterate to people out there, to
you know, really do choose life, choose freedom and, most of
all, choose yourself.
You are the most importantthing.
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