January 8, 2025 • 49 mins
Explore the societal underpinnings of pop psychology with us as we tackle the overuse and misunderstandings of terms like gaslighting and narcissism, particularly within the recovery community. Join us as we welcome back John Egan, Director of Business Development at Futures Recovery Healthcare, who shares his valuable insights and experiences as a therapist. Together, we navigate the delicate balance between sensitivity and the necessary discomfort for genuine personal growth, acknowledging that recovery is seldom a smooth journey.
Our conversation also highlights therapeutic processes like exposure therapy and emotional regulation, illustrating these concepts with real-life examples from residential treatment centers. By drawing parallels to societal issues such as political sound bites, we underscore the significance of real dialogue over mere confrontation.
Arriving in our conversation at the power of personal transformation, focusing on personal power over referent power; power by association. Societal pressures and pop psychology often push us toward external blame or validation, yet true growth demands introspection and accountability. Through the metaphor of climbing a mountain, we convey that the true beauty of achievement lies not in shortcuts, but in the effort and growth experienced along the journey. We also reflect on the complexities of human emotions, emphasizing empathy and self-reflection as key to fostering more compassionate interactions with others.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello folks, welcome once again to Mental Health
Matters on WPBM 1037, the voiceof Asheville.
I am Todd Weatherly, your hostbehavioral health expert and
therapeutic consultant, and youknow I'm happy that somebody
decided to not only be a gueston my show but then also felt
(00:21):
like it was worth returning.
My friend and colleague, mrJohn Egan, is joining me today.
He's been on the show before.
He's the Director of BusinessDevelopment with Futures
Recovery Healthcare Futures.
Welcome John to the team in2019,.
Having worked in the field ofsubstance use disorder treatment
since 2009 in many capacities,he adds tremendous energy and
(00:43):
value to the strategic businessdevelopment team and reinforces
the team's passion for helpingothers, alongside the
responsibility of cultivatingand maintaining relationships.
John graduated from LoyolaUniversity in 1998 and received
his master's in social work fromWidener University in your
Philadelphia, pa.
John was recognized by theKaren Foundation as an unsung
(01:05):
hero in the field of substanceuse disorder treatment in 2017.
John is proud of his ownjourney in recovery and has been
sober since August 16, 2007.
Congratulations, john.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
John attempts to be of maximum service to all
individuals and families seekingrecovery.
John lives with his wife andfamily in West Palm, where he's
deeply involved in the recoverycommunity, also enjoys
snorkeling beaches and cookingand working out and playing with
his dog and the VillanovaWildcats, of course.
John, thank you so much andwelcome back to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Thanks, todd, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
And you know the reason, not that I wouldn't want
you on the show for any goodreason.
You have many, many insights tooffer and lots of.
I remember our conversationabout your recovery journey when
we were on the show the firsttime.
But you know you, uh, andyou've been doing this for a
while.
I've known you for gosh, Iwe're pushing.
(02:03):
We're over five years, we'repushing on a decade now,
somewhere close to that, andevery once in a while you'll
send me your thought pieces andarticles, and sometimes you'll
post them to LinkedIn or you'llpush them out to the therapeutic
community.
And this time you sent me onelike hey, what do you think
about this?
And I said, oh man, you know,because I really love this, and
(02:24):
it was titled pop psychology,which I thought was great, but
the thing that you were focusingon was, you know this, what
we're seeing now is thisoveremphasis on gaslighting and
narcissism, trigger warnings andoverprotection and, you know,
basically balancing sensitivityand recovery in this place where
(02:46):
people can do real growth,because real growth is not
comfortable, as we both know.
This topic has been big on mylist with several of the
interviews that I've had in thelast year, because it's not only
something that I think kind ofwe see in greater society, we
(03:07):
see in recovery communities, butwe see it with therapists and
therapeutic professionals where,you know, we get so mixed up
into the sensitivity of ourlanguage and what we call
somebody and everything elsethat all of a sudden we're not
recognizing that, look, there'swork to be done here.
A person never gets theguarantee that they get to be
(03:27):
comfortable all the time.
In fact, that's not a very goodway to live.
It's not a balanced way to live.
And what made you write thisarticle first of all, what
brought you to sending it,writing it and sending it to me?
Speaker 2 (03:43):
I remember exactly where I was.
So I've been as you know.
I started in this field andwore many hats, but when I got
into the clinical realm, I'vealways kept even so.
I used to be a primarytherapist and my passion is
always there.
I think we've talked aboutIkigai, the four interlocking
(04:06):
circles of what you're good at,what you're passionate about,
what the world needs and whatyou get paid for.
And if I could find my sweetspot you know, the japanese
coined this term ikigai which isbasically when you wake up and
you've never worked a day inyour life because you love what
you do um, that would be groupfacilitation.
I, I thrive.
I don't know if it's myextroverted personality and the
fact that maybe I'm a middlechild and attention, see, I
(04:27):
don't know what it is.
Maybe we won't pathologizemyself, but I've always enjoyed
the group dynamic versus theindividual dynamic.
Just some, some therapists loveindividual therapy.
I just love group therapy.
Even if you have a group of six, as soon as one leaves and one
comes in, it's a whole otherexperience, just of the power of
that Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
It's a dynamic right.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
So I was in and I was in this group and there were 12
people in the group, which Ithink that's pretty much a good
max size before you start tolose sensibility.
But in this group we werediscussing I forget the topic we
were discussing about but oneof the female clients says, well
, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop mynarcissistic husband and I let
(05:11):
it go through that.
And the next person that sharedsaid well, my husband would
give you a run for your moneybecause he's the biggest
narcissist.
And after the whole, all thegroup members had shared, 11 of
the 12 were married tonarcissists, including some male
clients married to femalenarcissists.
Right, I just did it, I just didthe air quote and in my head I
(05:34):
was like, well, I'm either inthe matrix or this is
mathematically almost impossiblethat every single person is
married to a narcissist.
And I started to realize that,you know, and I started like
just to keep in my ears peeledfor these terms, these actual
psychological concepts thatabsolutely exist in the world
(05:59):
but have now become somainstream through Tik TOK and
you know you're you're flyingthrough reels of Instagram or
Facebook however you're gettingyour news and I see now that it
has become almost like this,abnormal psychology is now
normalized.
And so then it would, I mean, ifeverybody's married to a
narcissist, that wouldn't beabnormal, that would just be
(06:20):
normal.
But I, just in my heart, I waslike there's no way this could
possibly be happening.
So I started to think about allthe other things I started to
hear, and you know, it's alwaysif you, I say always the
prevalence of, if peopledisagree with someone, they're
being gaslit the, the inherentselfishness of humankind, right?
(06:43):
Whether you know the Hobbesianor the, I forget the other
onesness of humankind, right,whether the Hobbesian or the, I
forget the other one.
There's philosophers some thinkthat we're inherently good, some
think we're inherently bad, andthen I think that humans are
both.
But humans are by natureselfish to suffice their own
needs right before becomingwe're also communal.
Their own needs right beforebecoming we're also communal.
(07:07):
And so when did it become fromlike people acting selfishly to
if I do something selfish, I'm anarcissist, right, and I'm I'm,
and so, um, then the otherthing is in working in the field
, and you know, futures is atrauma-informed facility with
multiple modalities ofapproaches to treat trauma, but
that word even of itself yeahI'm not a.
(07:29):
I'm a social worker, so I'venever actually been a fan of
when people are like oh, this isbig t trauma versus little t
trauma.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
I try to define that, of course, right right, I love
gabor montes.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
He just said it's basically trauma right it's,
it's a wound Right, so none.
And I hope, while we go throughthis, that what I want to kind
of overarch is that, yes, thereare narcissists out there and
yes, gaslighting it's not apsychological term, it's from an
old movie like that actuallyhappens, this kind of
(08:00):
manipulation of coercion oflanguage to make you kind of
question your sanity.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Did I say that?
Did I say that, yeah, that'sabout right that there is
absolute trauma out there.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
If we understand that it's out there, not everybody
has it then, and so I wrote thisthought piece kind of with that
in mind, to kind of say, hey, Ithink we maybe went a little
too far, whereas people thathave not gone and gotten there
whether it's some sort ofeducation and from a higher
(08:36):
learning institution or under aboard of licensure maybe we have
to just be very, we have topull the reins back before kind
of throwing out thesepsychological concepts, because
if you use it in the masses itloses its value anyway.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
That's kind of that.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
But yeah, I remember exactly it was 11 out of 12 had
been married to narcissists.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
And I was like eh, so what do you think it's about,
like, besides the fact I mean,clearly people will take
something that gets used,they'll grab onto the language,
they'll make the term somethingthat's relatable to themselves,
whether it's accurate or not,and then you know that just
compounds, that effect compoundsacross social environments.
(09:17):
So we end up with this.
Everybody you know gaslightingbeing overused and poorly
defined.
Or narcissism, or personalitydisorder well, it's everywhere.
That's not true.
There's more to this than justa simple term and even
psychology.
Even when you have someone whois, say, could be diagnosed with
(09:39):
such a condition, even thenthere's a lot of nuance and
subtlety and clinicalsophistication that goes into
into creating that definition.
So it's, it can't just behoused in a word anyway yeah
what do you?
where are we going like?
What is it that society istrying to accomplish?
What's the wound they'readdressing?
(09:59):
What's the what's the what's,the need that they have, they're
trying to fill by using thislanguage.
Do you think?
Speaker 2 (10:06):
maybe it's the um the water concept.
Like water will always find itseasiest path maybe it's just
we're trying to simplify thingsto make it more for an
understanding, but thatoversimplification takes away
from the complicated conceptsthat we're trying to relate.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
It's like me trying to tell you what quantum
mechanics is in one sentence.
It's more than that.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
It might take us a minute.
It should right, it should.
And we're going to talk aboutquantum mechanics.
Let's give it its due.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
We might need that second episode, you, me and.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Schrodinger, we're going to sit down.
Well, and I think it's a littlebit of taking power back.
You know, if a person feels andI'm not saying it's necessarily
healthy or in balance, I thinkif a person feels in position by
by something you know, the, thebehavior of their partner or
(11:07):
the behavior of their boss, oryou know somebody is, should
they're meeting, they got a rub,there's a rub going on in their
world somewhere and I can, Ican be like you know, I can take
this big finger and throw itover at that person's, like that
person's of this it'spejorative term, it's negative,
or you're gaslighting me now.
(11:31):
Now we're getting into the realmof the of 10 common fallacies
used in arguments and it's likethese are these are poor
arguments being made againstsomeone in the equation, and
they are.
Then you've got to like to comeoff of.
(11:53):
If you were a person, you werearguing with me and you said
automatically you're gaslightingme.
One we've thrown all thecontent of the argument out the
window, first of all, so there'sno.
And two, we've stopped having aconversation, and whether it
was one before that or not, Idon't know, but whatever
conversation there was available, we've stopped the conversation
(12:16):
.
We've thrown out thisdisparaging remark.
We've taken all the power thatis inherent in, whatever it is,
the outcome we're trying toarrive at in relationship with
this person, and maybe thatperson's got some amount of
power over me and I'm trying totake this power back and I'm
(12:39):
trying to shift away from things, especially if it's being done
inaccurately and in a way thatis distracting or tries to take
away from the topic.
Let's say, you're an employerand I know that you are and
you've got an employee andthey've got some poor forward
stuff.
We've got to talk about this,we've got to have a conversation
.
You are and you've got anemployee and they've got some
port forward stuff.
We've got to talk about this,we've got to have a conversation
about it and in the midst ofthis conversation it's like
(13:01):
you're gaslighting me, that'sright.
They're trying to keep thevisibility off of their behavior
, throw the conversation off,put it back on you, make you
feel threatened and then, all ofa sudden, I think you're
hitting a nail on the head andit's also um well, we'll see
(13:23):
where this goes.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Um, I couldn't help but think that.
Uh, you know, last month we hadthis election and the start.
We stopped listening to eachother yeah you know, it became a
little sound.
It was these quick little soundbites, right, and what?
What stinks is is when we getinto this power struggle of I'm
(13:48):
gonna win this argument or winthis situation, or win this
experience, first of all, theears shut down.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
It's tactics, not dialogue, that's right.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
But that's where it gets really problematic, because
no one's even listening then tocome to a solution.
It's just almost you are tryingto hurt me and I'm just going
to throw this out there to win,but in the end nobody wins me
and I'm just going to throw thisout there to win yeah.
But in the end nobody wins.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Yeah, it's like a gladiator arena, you know what I
mean, like whoever the guy isstanding in the middle.
At the end you know yay, andthe game's over.
And then you know next weekthere's another event.
You know that guy's justanother guy in the crowd.
Next week there's another eventand you know that guy's just
another guy in the crowd.
It it's this never ending cycleand it it prevents us from
(14:40):
having conversations with oneanother.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Of course, and I think that my, my passion for
why this is is because I I workin an inpatient residential
program and so the clientelethat I treat or that we treat at
futures, first they come in raw, they come in hurting their
family systems.
If it's usually like it's, it'snot a good, it's not a good
(15:04):
situation usually, um and so ifI immediately go in and come in
this defensive posture, um, howare we ever going to get well?
because I think all, all therapy.
I'm trying to think if there'sany therapy that's not exposure
therapy.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
On some level.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Right, just a little bit of discomfort in order to
grow past, whether an old belief, an old thought yeah, I mean,
it doesn't have to be I'm afraidof elevators and we go jump in
an elevator.
But you know, to actually getover that, I'm first maybe going
to show you a picture of anelevator before I take you to
the elevator, and maybe we walktowards the elevator versus
(15:45):
getting in.
So all type of phobias or anytype of therapy around that is
going to be some sort ofexposure.
Even when we're doing, you know, trauma treatment.
We're going to have to kind ofgo back to that moment.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
And sometimes you're even having to do before you can
even do that work.
You're having to teach theperson how to regulate first.
They have to get stable enoughso that they learn how to
regulate before they can gostart even looking at that
content.
Because without this capacityto regulate, digging into trauma
can just be eitherre-traumatizing or you just
(16:21):
never really get anywherebecause you're too busy
perseverating on the content.
And so I think that you workand you do live, ultimately, in
a residential treatment center.
A lot of your life is spentthere.
As much of your life as youspend in bed and with your
(16:43):
family is spent with the peoplewho do treatment and that sort
of thing, Our work lives and ourhome lives.
I think you do a pretty good jobbalancing, but I know you spend
a lot of time, Whereas out inthe world the parameters are not
the same.
We're not necessarily requiredto do work.
(17:04):
We're not necessarily requiredto engage in relationship that
is of depth or to kind of or toa large extent.
I think this is the big one.
Take accountability for what Iam in this situation.
And even even if you're working.
You know, for me and I thinkyou probably echo this if I find
myself in a situation or in arelationship with a person where
(17:26):
it really doesn't work, it'snot a match and there's a lot of
butting heads or whatever elseI'm like.
Why am I in this?
What about me called thisexperience to my life?
Why am I bumping up againstthese conflicts?
What is it that has caused me?
(17:46):
Obviously I must have needed tobring them to my visibility
again, right?
Um, because I've I've failed torecognize something or I failed
to work something.
So it's not to say that peoplearen't responsible for their
behavior.
They are.
But I have a lot more power andcontrol over where I'm
responsible for something andwhat I can do differently about
(18:09):
it than I am with other,expecting other people to behave
differently.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
You know what I mean and I prefer that I think when
we I think last time we spokeand I think I've been, uh,
pretty transparent about myjourney, but when you were
sharing that, it brought up alot of like.
So I'm in a journey of wellnessand I have to be accountable
and responsible for my actionsin order for me to have
sustained wellness.
It's just, I believe thatwholeheartedly, I cannot play
(18:37):
the victim role in recovery.
Personally I just can't.
And so it brought to mind whenI was doing the intensive work
in my own journey I came to aspot where I was looking at all
my resentments in my life andthere was this pattern.
There's this pattern ofex-partners right, and for the
(19:00):
sake of their anonymity we'lljust use generic names of who
they were, but say it's Judy,paula, barbara, amy and Helen.
Right, and in the victimmentality, there's one thing
that those five women had incommon and they all cheated on
me, all of them, they all wentoutside our committed
(19:22):
relationship and felt I had thatsense of betrayal.
Right, and once again, I'm nothere to minimize that traumatic,
how traumatizing that is whenyour sense of safety is ripped
apart from you because thatrelationship was so dear.
But now I have five experiencesand if I was in this, what
(19:43):
we're talking, this poppsychology I'm traumatized and I
can never be in anotherrelationship because no woman
can be trusted, because they allcheat right, these narcissistic
women.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Ladder of inference right, these narcissistic women,
Ladder of imprints right, rightNow.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Would you like to Todd, being the clinical man
that you are, would you like topossibly guess as to one other
thing they have in common?
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Oh yeah, when you look at all the problems in your
life, the one common thing thatyou can find in all those
scenarios is you.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Me.
And so the reason I share thatand I say that with Jess now is
that maybe, just maybe, I'm notas dateable as I think I am and
maybe, just maybe me leavingeach of them to go find cocaine
at 2 am in the morning was theirsense of betrayal and like.
(20:38):
So maybe I actually havemistakes and faults of my own in
this relationship that led butin this victim mentality I can
never, I would never, I wouldhave blinders to that Right,
because I'm the consummatevictim and how dare they treat
me like that?
And so I share that, becauseuntil I actually looked at my,
my responsibility in thatrelationship, I would never get
(21:01):
better.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
In terms of pop psychology.
If I didn't know any better, Iwould just be like oh, all women
are cheaters.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
They're all narcissistic.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
They're all narcissistic.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Right, yeah, well, it's like the.
You know, if you, if you keeprunning through roommate, every
person you get and bring intoyour apartment, situation never
works out and they're all badroommates.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
By a third or fourth bad roommate, you might be bad
roommate, I just might, and sowhat's neat is that you know,
and depending on where I'm at,but I'll, I'll, I'll personalize
this for me and this would bekind of like when we are working
with with clients that are arethat come in.
We'll just use the word termsbroken, right?
(21:44):
Um, we have to slowly repair,like maybe I just got to get my
life in order to become dateable, and maybe these are the my
attitudes and the way I speakand the way I conduct myself and
the way I dress and my physicalshape and my emotional wellness
and my mental wellness and myspiritual journey.
Maybe I should start toincorporate some wellness in
(22:06):
that and then I'd have a wholenew person to actually engage in
a relationship with.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Well, you know what you're talking about for most
people is terrifying, and I'mnot saying that's inaccurate.
I mean I think that if you'redoing that level of personal
work for yourself and makingsome monumental shift in the way
that you partner and live lifeand conduct yourself and take
(22:35):
care of yourself and andcommence with wellbeing, if the
first thing you could come upwith isn't terror, you probably
haven't looked closely enough,cause it's like it's terrifying,
it's worth it, and the road isa little long Any other areas
where kind of this overarchingterm has bled into the
(22:57):
mainstream culture and actuallypossibly causes more harm than
good.
I mean, you know, I think I seepeople, these large terms
because that's what they are,you know.
They point at something that'sugly and it's you know, it's
(23:19):
pervasive in our environments,and so this person goes and
takes power back.
But I I think that you kind ofnailed it on the head here is
that people are actuallyincredibly uncomfortable with
reflection.
Uh, they do not want to look athow they're responsible, what
things it is they need to do inorder to create a different life
(23:41):
for themselves, to be indifferent partnerships or
relationships, to have differentkind of outcomes in their life,
and in order to, instead ofdoing that, they grab these big
terms and they throw them asblame elements at their
environment.
You know, because I meanconsistent with people in
(24:03):
recovery and people in treatmentand everything else one
consistent theme you'll findwe've all been guilty of it
which is to blame others orthings outside of yourself for
what's going on with you orwhat's happened to you.
And I'm not saying thingsdidn't happen and people weren't
didn't do bad things, but youknow, you're the common
denominator and you're also theperson who can be responsible
(24:26):
for making things different andand creating change and it's
almost like a more externallocus versus internal locus and
I think that that's the deeperpsychology of our social media
and you know we've got thisbetter in pictures model kind of
thing going on about you knowwhat a good life looks like, and
this person did thisincredible thing and went to
this great place and took apicture in front of this wall.
(24:48):
That's somewhere, amazing.
You know, we've got this.
Outward things make me looklike a person of worth and value
.
Yeah, where I've been, whatI've done, who I'm associated
with, deepak Chopra.
In one of his more recent bookshe talks about this.
He talks about referent powerand internal power.
(25:13):
So referent power is power thatyou have as a result of the car
you drive and the job you haveand the people you know and the
house you live in, etc.
That's reverent power.
These things that I'massociated with or have.
They give me this visibility ofpower, but it's an illusion in
many ways.
The only real power that existsis internal power the power
(25:35):
that if I believe that I'm aperson of worth not because of
what I own or what I do or who Iknow but I can look at myself
and I can accept myself and Iknow who I am warts and all and
I love that person and I valuemyself and, as a result, I have
(25:57):
internal worth.
That's life law.
That's something that's hard tocorrupt.
I can take away your house andyour car and you can lose a job
and all those things can go away.
So we're very much living in asociety in my view that's
referent power driven much livein a society in my view that's
(26:24):
referent power driven.
We also tend to seem to take theself out of self-worth.
You're right, I was looking forthe acronym.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
I'm like sel, oh self right yeah, I, I am funny if
you laugh, I'm good looking ifyou click like or somebody
swipes, right, but inherently,oh, I mean, that's a whole other
ballgame.
I think what's neat about thatis, if I work on the inherent,
(26:49):
the internal power, I actuallydon't need the external.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Right.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
I'm not actually going to be seeking status,
which is actually, when youthink about what, what true
narcissism is.
It's almost like a grab forunearned status.
It's let me get this elevatedsense of prestige without the
(27:17):
inherent work that's needed.
Did we talk about the hill andthe helicopter last time?
Speaker 1 (27:26):
No, I don't think we did.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
So when I talk with clients I say let's go to the
top of a mountain.
Being from Philly, I think ofRocky putting his hands in
victory.
But it's if I get in ahelicopter at the valley and we
take a ride up to the top of themountain and they drop me off,
I can raise my hands in victoryand that that view is nice.
(27:52):
Take the picture right, let meget the lights.
But the reality is, the beautyof the mountaintop is the
struggle of the valley, it's thefalls along the way, it's the
wanting to give up when I thinkI can't do it, it's the scrapes
and the bruises and the doubt.
That's what makes themountaintop so beautiful.
(28:12):
It's the work to get there.
That's how we kind of startedthis.
I think a life worth living anda life of purpose is completely
analogous to the not to goChristian on you, but the size
of the cross that you bear.
That is where we're going tofind the worth, because if
everything's given to me, what'sanother car?
(28:36):
I look at these.
They have 30 cars in theirgarage.
They probably don't evenremember where they were when
they bought the second one.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Or how many they have .
Sometimes Maybe that's true.
That's not to say that somebodyhasn't lived a life, and just
because they're prosperousdoesn't mean that they haven't
done these things right.
But you know I think that it'swhat you're referring to as well
is that the work is constant,always.
(29:07):
You know, you just can't likethere's no the Rocky moment,
like you're saying.
It's like, oh yeah, I reachedit.
Okay, great, you know, let'sroll on back home, like Rocky
still had to keep training, yeahyeah, there's another mountain.
There's another mountain.
Holy crap, there's another oneover there.
You know there's always thisjourney and you're talking about
something you know in referenceto the garage you bear, victor
(29:33):
Frankl.
One of his main quotes is youknow, be worthy of your
suffering.
Now, you may have, you may havedone this journey.
That was a journey of suffering, a journey and you certainly
know this from your own personalstory but it's you know.
You're a person who's turnedthat into something that is of
(29:53):
great value and worth, not onlyto you and your family, but also
to the people that you workwith and the organization that
you serve.
I think you've genuinely becomeworthy of your suffering.
I hope that I've done the same,but I'm conscious of it all the
time.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Sure, yeah, I do believe that the pain,
personally, the pain I've beenthrough my falls, my collapses,
my like that's the best thing Ihave going for me, right, in
order to be helpful to someoneelse, like you know, it's much
(30:31):
easier for you to believe thatthe smile is genuine if you know
that of the pain I come from,whereas I just walk around with
a smile, I'll be like oh, whatdo they call those people?
Uh, fake, you can't be.
You can't be optimistic likewell, I mean not always, but you
can be um but I think optimismis a state that I choose right,
(30:56):
I, and, and.
so if I am entering into atreatment facility or if
something's happening in my lifeand I immediately just think
that you're gaslighting mebecause your opinion is
different, like I'm never goingto have to actually go, take
that journey within to thosepainful moments.
Yeah, I'll always be a constantvictim.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Well, I think that what we're talking about here is
a bit of a like.
You know, for a person whomight be listening, there's a
warning If you're bandying abouta lot of psychological terms
you know these pop psychologyterms and that sort of thing
then why are you doing that?
(31:40):
I mean, you and I both knowthat if someone is gaslighting
others, or if they are genuinelynarcissistic, pointing it out
to them is not the way to helpthem get better.
That's not the path.
If you're throwing stuff outlike this and you come to
(32:05):
realize that what you're doingis trying to take power back
over people, it's like where andwhy do you feel disempowered?
What is it that's causing youto have to fill the God-sized
hole in your soul withplatitudes and pop psychology
and blame and chaos and disorder, because that's what that
(32:28):
creates in your life.
If you're experiencing thesethings on some level I think
that I've had the term thrown atme before it's like you're
gaslighting me.
Gaslighting, it's like you'regaslighting me.
I'm like no, I'm disagreeingwith you.
Disagree, and that's differentthan gaslighting you.
(32:49):
I'm not saying that you don'tbelieve what you're saying.
I'm just saying that theinformation that we're talking
about and the conclusion thatyou reach is different than the
conclusion I reach based on thesame information.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
And so, if we have, I guess we should probably have a
general definition of whatgaslighting is.
But if it is the coercion, well, how would you define
gaslighting?
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Coercion?
How would you definegaslighting?
I've looked it up a couple oftimes and I think that it gets
vague.
But I think what it is is whena person, when you're saying
something about your experienceor you're communicating with
another person, and they takethat information and one they
(33:36):
doubt that you are drawing itfrom real experience, they doubt
your validity as a person who'squalified for saying it, and
then they start to wrap theirown sentences around and they
know what actually that you knowthey are using it as a moment
for manipulation.
If they can cause you to doubtyourself and, in the course of
(33:57):
doubt, believe what they aresaying yes, Then that's a highly
manipulative tactic.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
And I think, as we mentioned, it does happen.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
It does happen.
It does happen 100%.
There are people out theredoing it all the time.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
They question their reality based on a different set
of beliefs or opinions of anexperience.
But that also happens everytime I've ever like.
I'm 48 years old now.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Uh-oh Getting close.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
What I believe about insert subject is different than
what I believed when I was 21.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
100%.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
But that doesn't mean I've been gaslit.
It just means that I've had toquestion my own reality, right,
my own, my own concrete set ofbeliefs about what this is.
Because a new experience waslike oh might be something
different here, which is whathappens in normal dialogue.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Right, well, and I think if you had, your kids
aren't quite teenagers yet.
Is that right, dimeca?
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Oh, my One, soon One, soon right One in 11 days.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
I think if teenagers and we might see this, like you
know, with parents it's like whydo you keep on gaslighting me,
like I'm not gaslighting you?
I'm telling you I'm not givingyou the keys to the car because
you're not ready to drive it yetand I don't want you to be out
past 11 and you know, like me,setting boundaries with you is
not gaslighting.
I think that's where that stuffcan get used and what that
teenager would be doing istrying to edge you over to their
(35:30):
side and give them what theywant.
Ultimately, you know right, butI, I, when people do this in
such a way, I don't think thatanybody who's genuinely
gaslighting someone, if theyfind themselves in an
environment where, or context orrelationship where that's going
on, I think a lot of times theydon't realize it.
(35:50):
They don't see it because theperson's being very masterful
yeah, about how execute it.
I can see it, I work in thefield and I'm like okay.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
There is that dark tetrad of personality types,
right the sadism and thepsychopathy, and the.
Machiavellianism, that stuffreally does the narcissism.
Those are some.
Those are some very very.
I remember, uh, there's one,there's one client that came out
(36:23):
and I know why this is comingup, but we were, there was a
this is a old treatment centerand there was a client passed by
, a client overdosed, and theygathered all the other clients
together to kind of processright, Because one of one of
them had passed.
And, um, you could tell thatthis, this guy was just very
(36:46):
bothered, bothered that his timewith his therapist was taken up
because this person had diedand I was.
but he had that, he had thatblank stare and I was like right
, there it is there it is thereit is he's, this death is
inconveniencing his time, which,uh and so that.
(37:11):
So, when I share that, becauseI've actually I think I've
actually come into the realm ofmeeting that darkness, there's
some.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Yeah, I think it lives within us.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
That doesn't mean, everybody is like that.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
I correct people.
There are times when people usethe word narcissism.
Well, they're a narcissist.
I said well, I think they'reself-absorbed.
I said, well, I think they'reself-absorbed.
You know, they're so wrapped upin their own experience.
It's very hard for them toidentify or see how it relates
(37:46):
to others or that others arehaving an experience as a result
of their behavior.
They're self-absorbed.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
And that's different than narcissism.
And just because you're vain,vanity might be a part of
narcissism, but it doesn't meaneverybody that is vain is a
narcissist right there's just.
There's a deeper level.
I mean, when you look at the,the origin, right from
narcissist, uh, the story, theperson that fell in love with
himself like the vanity in thepool, that was one part of the
story.
(38:14):
But to to bring in that groupthat's greek, a greek story into
oh, he's obsessed with hisreflection right so there's a
whole lot more.
There's a whole lot more goingon there, and there's a whole
lot more going on to what a Ithink a true narcissist is
versus oh, they're self-absorbed.
Well, most humans are.
(38:34):
I always tell as a joke in therecovery journey I have, there's
this line that basically saysthat selfishness is the root of
our problems, right, and so Ialways when I'm going through
with a guy, that's new and I waslike all right, do me a favor,
clear your brain for a second,and I want you just to think of
(38:54):
something other than what youwant to think about right now.
Let me know when you're ready,and you can't.
You can't stop thinking aboutwhat you want to think about,
because that's that's what wethink about.
We are inherently wired tothink about what we want to
think about.
Now we could be trained to takeothers into consideration, but I
think inherently, we always.
You know, it's like I have myfavorite meal and Netflix does a
(39:18):
good job Tells me what I wantto see.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
Yeah Things you might enjoy.
I'm like, you know what Iactually would enjoy that I just
posted this quote not too longago.
I think it's Thoreau Um, but uh, it takes the average human
being about two years to learnthe English language.
It takes them about 60 to learnhow to be quiet.
It's true, I think we're at alarge like.
(39:51):
You know, what you're talkingabout is empty mind, right,
which is a practice.
Like to have empty mind is apractice.
I think we try it in a lot ofdifferent ways Video gaming, we
tune out, we veg out, we do allthese things, but it's not
actually a practice of emptymind, is it?
Speaker 2 (40:14):
We're not thinking, but we're not empty yeah, and,
and the thoughts are kind ofcascading over us, not cascading
into us right, right, right.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
We're just observant of all these things that are
going by, like there's a, youknow, in between, in between
your thoughts, there's a,there's a space, you know, in
between thought and actionthere's a gap, there's a space
in between thought and action.
There's a space right, and inthat space you've got a lot of
room to make some, make someinformed decisions if you want.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
So what do you think we can do to so we don't want to
too much of an overcorrection,right Like once the the right
goes too far, then we have to goleft and left goes too far.
Like, once the right goes toofar, then we have to go left and
left goes too far, we got to goright.
Like, how do we actually justbring it if, assuming we've gone
too far, where everybody'sbeing gaslit and everybody has a
(41:04):
trigger warning and everybodyis a narcissist and normalizing
abnormal, is what can we?
What do you think we can dobesides having this radio show
broadcast to the masses?
Speaker 1 (41:21):
That's a good question.
I mean, I think we need to keeptalking about it.
I think that part of it is alsoengaged in this living practice
of it with others.
You know, with our wives andour friends and our communities,
that we, you know we putjudgment on the backseat,
(41:41):
because judgment that's whatleads to it.
Right?
You have these snap judgmentsand all of a sudden, you're.
I've got my moments where I'mimpatient driving in the car and
you're angry.
It's like get out of my way.
Who's this person, this jerk?
And it's like I don't know ifthey're a jerk.
Maybe they're just not payingattention, Maybe they're having
a bad day.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
Maybe they're trying to get somewhere.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
Maybe they're, you know, 86 years old and they can
barely see and terrified beingin the car and it's the only way
they can get about like I don'tknow what their situation is.
Man, yeah, I'm not saying thatjerks don't exist out there.
They certainly do do.
But probably a lot more of theworld is just having a bad,
having having a hard time anddealing with some difficult
things.
I think that's true for a lotof us and, um, a little
(42:23):
compassion is a good way to doit.
How to build more compassion?
I'm not sure.
Uh, I think that we're we'relacking in compassion for each
other and I think so too.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Yeah, I think so too.
I think what's unfortunate isdue to the, maybe the
overemphasis of being triggeredright Trigger warnings
everywhere.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
Right.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
What that does is that leads to like a callousness
of some.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
And then they take advantage of that.
Like then the true ones thatwe're worried about, they love
that Because now they're goingto actually take advantage of
that.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
I don't even like the word trigger.
To be honest with you.
It's like you got triggered.
Somebody said something or didsomething and I had feelings
about it.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
I felt.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
That's true about everything that happens in my
life.
I feel some way towards justabout everything.
Just because you could see thereaction, you know, or I had
strong feelings about it.
It's like does it have to be atrigger warning?
Do we have to live in atrigger-happy environment?
Can we stop?
Speaker 2 (43:37):
Yeah, I felt a certain way, which is wonderful
because we've been talking for abit now and I've had an array
of feelings come through this,but I wouldn't say whether it
was good or bad.
I don't think any of them weretriggering.
They just I felt.
And when we leave, I'm going togo through more experiences and
(43:59):
I'm going to feel.
Yeah, it's almost kind of howyou, how you said, like we got
to get to a spot where we canregulate our ups and downs,
where they don't have to be sospiky, Cause it's in the spikes.
I think that those maybeirrational.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
I agree.
There's certainly material thatlive in all of us that causes
us to have strong reactions tosomething that's happening in
our world.
I mean that happens for all ofus.
There's a quote by I think it'sby Parker Palmer it's when in
doubt turn to wonder.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
All, a sense of all.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
A sense of all or just live it in the question.
It's just like I don't knowwhat that means.
You know, I feel these things,but my feelings don't
necessarily have to tell me whatthis means.
Let me cut the layers back alittle bit.
Let me cut past my triggermarks and my experiences and my
judgments and my values.
(45:00):
Let me just.
What does it mean without anyof that?
Does it have a meaning?
Is this person that said meanthings to me?
Was it about me?
Okay, why did I take it thatway?
What about that material andthat exchange caused me to take
this this way?
Why did I do that?
(45:22):
Yeah, I mean, and I'll you know,just to be candid and honest, I
had a recent experience where Igot very irritated, even loud,
at a gentleman.
I did, it was true, I was upsetwith the way he behaved and the
way he was conducting himself,and I let him know in a rather
demonstrative way, shall we say.
(45:45):
And then I came back and my kidswere like Dad, you know, and I
was like and so I dug in and I'mlike, oh crap, yeah, dug in and
I'm like, oh crap, yeah, I'm 50, I'm about to be 54, and this
is the same period of time whenmy dad started to go into
(46:05):
diabetes, so we've got in ourfamily and everything else.
I'm like, dude, your bloodsugar was low and you snapped
yeah.
And I'm like, oh crap, now I'mgonna have to do even more to
like, watch my diet, to watch mydiet and watch these elements
which have a dramatic impact onyour regulation.
So it was like I could havespent this time justifying my
(46:28):
behavior, and what I did is it'snot really characteristic for
me.
I'm not going to spend a lot oftime trying to say he was right
or I was wrong or anything else.
It's like, well, why did I do?
Why?
Speaker 2 (46:39):
did I do that.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
And then it caused me to reflect and look back and
I'm like, oh, I bet your bloodsugar was low and now that means
something different, cause whenyou were 20, it meant you got a
little grumpy and needed to getsomething to eat.
When you're 50, something itmeans something else.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
Yeah, you know that energy you could have spent well
we sometimes we spend defendingour rightness.
That's right, let me tell youhow right I am.
Where it's much easier to kindof explore, not where I'm wrong
but where you're accurate.
Speaker 1 (47:19):
Yeah, when?
Because in every dialogue.
Speaker 2 (47:20):
There's going to be some nuggets we can learn from
right.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
Yeah, is there something here?
Is there information here forme?
Right, mr John?
I just spend the rest of theday talking about this with you.
Just really enjoy your, your,your presence and your
thoughtfulness and yourquestions, and I'm so happy to
have you on the show again.
I'm certain we'll have more tocome, but this has been WPBM
(47:48):
1037, the voice of Asheville.
I'm Todd Weatherly, your host,and John, thanks once again.
Speaker 2 (47:55):
God bless you, sir.
Speaker 1 (47:56):
We'll be with you next time.
I found you in this.
I found you in this.
I found you in this.
(48:20):
I found you in this.
I found you in this.
I found you in this.
I found you in this.
I found you in this.
I found you in this.
(49:29):
I found you in this.
Thank you, bye.
I feel so lonely and lost inhere.
I need to find my way home.
I feel so lonely and lost inhere.
I need to find my way home.
I feel so lonely and lost inhere.
I need to find my way home.
Hello folks, welcome once again to Mental Health
Matters on WPBM 1037, the voiceof Asheville.
I am Todd Weatherly, your hostbehavioral health expert and
therapeutic consultant, and youknow I'm happy that somebody
decided to not only be a gueston my show but then also felt
(00:21):
like it was worth returning.
My friend and colleague, mrJohn Egan, is joining me today.
He's been on the show before.
He's the Director of BusinessDevelopment with Futures
Recovery Healthcare Futures.
Welcome John to the team in2019,.
Having worked in the field ofsubstance use disorder treatment
since 2009 in many capacities,he adds tremendous energy and
(00:43):
value to the strategic businessdevelopment team and reinforces
the team's passion for helpingothers, alongside the
responsibility of cultivatingand maintaining relationships.
John graduated from LoyolaUniversity in 1998 and received
his master's in social work fromWidener University in your
Philadelphia, pa.
John was recognized by theKaren Foundation as an unsung
(01:05):
hero in the field of substanceuse disorder treatment in 2017.
John is proud of his ownjourney in recovery and has been
sober since August 16, 2007.
Congratulations, john.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
John attempts to be of maximum service to all
individuals and families seekingrecovery.
John lives with his wife andfamily in West Palm, where he's
deeply involved in the recoverycommunity, also enjoys
snorkeling beaches and cookingand working out and playing with
his dog and the VillanovaWildcats, of course.
John, thank you so much andwelcome back to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Thanks, todd, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
And you know the reason, not that I wouldn't want
you on the show for any goodreason.
You have many, many insights tooffer and lots of.
I remember our conversationabout your recovery journey when
we were on the show the firsttime.
But you know you, uh, andyou've been doing this for a
while.
I've known you for gosh, Iwe're pushing.
(02:03):
We're over five years, we'repushing on a decade now,
somewhere close to that, andevery once in a while you'll
send me your thought pieces andarticles, and sometimes you'll
post them to LinkedIn or you'llpush them out to the therapeutic
community.
And this time you sent me onelike hey, what do you think
about this?
And I said, oh man, you know,because I really love this, and
(02:24):
it was titled pop psychology,which I thought was great, but
the thing that you were focusingon was, you know this, what
we're seeing now is thisoveremphasis on gaslighting and
narcissism, trigger warnings andoverprotection and, you know,
basically balancing sensitivityand recovery in this place where
(02:46):
people can do real growth,because real growth is not
comfortable, as we both know.
This topic has been big on mylist with several of the
interviews that I've had in thelast year, because it's not only
something that I think kind ofwe see in greater society, we
(03:07):
see in recovery communities, butwe see it with therapists and
therapeutic professionals where,you know, we get so mixed up
into the sensitivity of ourlanguage and what we call
somebody and everything elsethat all of a sudden we're not
recognizing that, look, there'swork to be done here.
A person never gets theguarantee that they get to be
(03:27):
comfortable all the time.
In fact, that's not a very goodway to live.
It's not a balanced way to live.
And what made you write thisarticle first of all, what
brought you to sending it,writing it and sending it to me?
Speaker 2 (03:43):
I remember exactly where I was.
So I've been as you know.
I started in this field andwore many hats, but when I got
into the clinical realm, I'vealways kept even so.
I used to be a primarytherapist and my passion is
always there.
I think we've talked aboutIkigai, the four interlocking
(04:06):
circles of what you're good at,what you're passionate about,
what the world needs and whatyou get paid for.
And if I could find my sweetspot you know, the japanese
coined this term ikigai which isbasically when you wake up and
you've never worked a day inyour life because you love what
you do um, that would be groupfacilitation.
I, I thrive.
I don't know if it's myextroverted personality and the
fact that maybe I'm a middlechild and attention, see, I
(04:27):
don't know what it is.
Maybe we won't pathologizemyself, but I've always enjoyed
the group dynamic versus theindividual dynamic.
Just some, some therapists loveindividual therapy.
I just love group therapy.
Even if you have a group of six, as soon as one leaves and one
comes in, it's a whole otherexperience, just of the power of
that Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
It's a dynamic right.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
So I was in and I was in this group and there were 12
people in the group, which Ithink that's pretty much a good
max size before you start tolose sensibility.
But in this group we werediscussing I forget the topic we
were discussing about but oneof the female clients says, well
, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop mynarcissistic husband and I let
(05:11):
it go through that.
And the next person that sharedsaid well, my husband would
give you a run for your moneybecause he's the biggest
narcissist.
And after the whole, all thegroup members had shared, 11 of
the 12 were married tonarcissists, including some male
clients married to femalenarcissists.
Right, I just did it, I just didthe air quote and in my head I
(05:34):
was like, well, I'm either inthe matrix or this is
mathematically almost impossiblethat every single person is
married to a narcissist.
And I started to realize that,you know, and I started like
just to keep in my ears peeledfor these terms, these actual
psychological concepts thatabsolutely exist in the world
(05:59):
but have now become somainstream through Tik TOK and
you know you're you're flyingthrough reels of Instagram or
Facebook however you're gettingyour news and I see now that it
has become almost like this,abnormal psychology is now
normalized.
And so then it would, I mean, ifeverybody's married to a
narcissist, that wouldn't beabnormal, that would just be
(06:20):
normal.
But I, just in my heart, I waslike there's no way this could
possibly be happening.
So I started to think about allthe other things I started to
hear, and you know, it's alwaysif you, I say always the
prevalence of, if peopledisagree with someone, they're
being gaslit the, the inherentselfishness of humankind, right?
(06:43):
Whether you know the Hobbesianor the, I forget the other
onesness of humankind, right,whether the Hobbesian or the, I
forget the other one.
There's philosophers some thinkthat we're inherently good, some
think we're inherently bad, andthen I think that humans are
both.
But humans are by natureselfish to suffice their own
needs right before becomingwe're also communal.
Their own needs right beforebecoming we're also communal.
(07:07):
And so when did it become fromlike people acting selfishly to
if I do something selfish, I'm anarcissist, right, and I'm I'm,
and so, um, then the otherthing is in working in the field
, and you know, futures is atrauma-informed facility with
multiple modalities ofapproaches to treat trauma, but
that word even of itself yeahI'm not a.
(07:29):
I'm a social worker, so I'venever actually been a fan of
when people are like oh, this isbig t trauma versus little t
trauma.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
I try to define that, of course, right right, I love
gabor montes.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
He just said it's basically trauma right it's,
it's a wound Right, so none.
And I hope, while we go throughthis, that what I want to kind
of overarch is that, yes, thereare narcissists out there and
yes, gaslighting it's not apsychological term, it's from an
old movie like that actuallyhappens, this kind of
(08:00):
manipulation of coercion oflanguage to make you kind of
question your sanity.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Did I say that?
Did I say that, yeah, that'sabout right that there is
absolute trauma out there.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
If we understand that it's out there, not everybody
has it then, and so I wrote thisthought piece kind of with that
in mind, to kind of say, hey, Ithink we maybe went a little
too far, whereas people thathave not gone and gotten there
whether it's some sort ofeducation and from a higher
(08:36):
learning institution or under aboard of licensure maybe we have
to just be very, we have topull the reins back before kind
of throwing out thesepsychological concepts, because
if you use it in the masses itloses its value anyway.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
That's kind of that.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
But yeah, I remember exactly it was 11 out of 12 had
been married to narcissists.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
And I was like eh, so what do you think it's about,
like, besides the fact I mean,clearly people will take
something that gets used,they'll grab onto the language,
they'll make the term somethingthat's relatable to themselves,
whether it's accurate or not,and then you know that just
compounds, that effect compoundsacross social environments.
(09:17):
So we end up with this.
Everybody you know gaslightingbeing overused and poorly
defined.
Or narcissism, or personalitydisorder well, it's everywhere.
That's not true.
There's more to this than justa simple term and even
psychology.
Even when you have someone whois, say, could be diagnosed with
(09:39):
such a condition, even thenthere's a lot of nuance and
subtlety and clinicalsophistication that goes into
into creating that definition.
So it's, it can't just behoused in a word anyway yeah
what do you?
where are we going like?
What is it that society istrying to accomplish?
What's the wound they'readdressing?
(09:59):
What's the what's the what's,the need that they have, they're
trying to fill by using thislanguage.
Do you think?
Speaker 2 (10:06):
maybe it's the um the water concept.
Like water will always find itseasiest path maybe it's just
we're trying to simplify thingsto make it more for an
understanding, but thatoversimplification takes away
from the complicated conceptsthat we're trying to relate.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
It's like me trying to tell you what quantum
mechanics is in one sentence.
It's more than that.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
It might take us a minute.
It should right, it should.
And we're going to talk aboutquantum mechanics.
Let's give it its due.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
We might need that second episode, you, me and.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Schrodinger, we're going to sit down.
Well, and I think it's a littlebit of taking power back.
You know, if a person feels andI'm not saying it's necessarily
healthy or in balance, I thinkif a person feels in position by
by something you know, the, thebehavior of their partner or
(11:07):
the behavior of their boss, oryou know somebody is, should
they're meeting, they got a rub,there's a rub going on in their
world somewhere and I can, Ican be like you know, I can take
this big finger and throw itover at that person's, like that
person's of this it'spejorative term, it's negative,
or you're gaslighting me now.
(11:31):
Now we're getting into the realmof the of 10 common fallacies
used in arguments and it's likethese are these are poor
arguments being made againstsomeone in the equation, and
they are.
Then you've got to like to comeoff of.
(11:53):
If you were a person, you werearguing with me and you said
automatically you're gaslightingme.
One we've thrown all thecontent of the argument out the
window, first of all, so there'sno.
And two, we've stopped having aconversation, and whether it
was one before that or not, Idon't know, but whatever
conversation there was available, we've stopped the conversation
(12:16):
.
We've thrown out thisdisparaging remark.
We've taken all the power thatis inherent in, whatever it is,
the outcome we're trying toarrive at in relationship with
this person, and maybe thatperson's got some amount of
power over me and I'm trying totake this power back and I'm
(12:39):
trying to shift away from things, especially if it's being done
inaccurately and in a way thatis distracting or tries to take
away from the topic.
Let's say, you're an employerand I know that you are and
you've got an employee andthey've got some poor forward
stuff.
We've got to talk about this,we've got to have a conversation
.
You are and you've got anemployee and they've got some
port forward stuff.
We've got to talk about this,we've got to have a conversation
about it and in the midst ofthis conversation it's like
(13:01):
you're gaslighting me, that'sright.
They're trying to keep thevisibility off of their behavior
, throw the conversation off,put it back on you, make you
feel threatened and then, all ofa sudden, I think you're
hitting a nail on the head andit's also um well, we'll see
(13:23):
where this goes.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Um, I couldn't help but think that.
Uh, you know, last month we hadthis election and the start.
We stopped listening to eachother yeah you know, it became a
little sound.
It was these quick little soundbites, right, and what?
What stinks is is when we getinto this power struggle of I'm
(13:48):
gonna win this argument or winthis situation, or win this
experience, first of all, theears shut down.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
It's tactics, not dialogue, that's right.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
But that's where it gets really problematic, because
no one's even listening then tocome to a solution.
It's just almost you are tryingto hurt me and I'm just going
to throw this out there to win,but in the end nobody wins me
and I'm just going to throw thisout there to win yeah.
But in the end nobody wins.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Yeah, it's like a gladiator arena, you know what I
mean, like whoever the guy isstanding in the middle.
At the end you know yay, andthe game's over.
And then you know next weekthere's another event.
You know that guy's justanother guy in the crowd.
Next week there's another eventand you know that guy's just
another guy in the crowd.
It it's this never ending cycleand it it prevents us from
(14:40):
having conversations with oneanother.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Of course, and I think that my, my passion for
why this is is because I I workin an inpatient residential
program and so the clientelethat I treat or that we treat at
futures, first they come in raw, they come in hurting their
family systems.
If it's usually like it's, it'snot a good, it's not a good
(15:04):
situation usually, um and so ifI immediately go in and come in
this defensive posture, um, howare we ever going to get well?
because I think all, all therapy.
I'm trying to think if there'sany therapy that's not exposure
therapy.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
On some level.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Right, just a little bit of discomfort in order to
grow past, whether an old belief, an old thought yeah, I mean,
it doesn't have to be I'm afraidof elevators and we go jump in
an elevator.
But you know, to actually getover that, I'm first maybe going
to show you a picture of anelevator before I take you to
the elevator, and maybe we walktowards the elevator versus
(15:45):
getting in.
So all type of phobias or anytype of therapy around that is
going to be some sort ofexposure.
Even when we're doing, you know, trauma treatment.
We're going to have to kind ofgo back to that moment.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
And sometimes you're even having to do before you can
even do that work.
You're having to teach theperson how to regulate first.
They have to get stable enoughso that they learn how to
regulate before they can gostart even looking at that
content.
Because without this capacityto regulate, digging into trauma
can just be eitherre-traumatizing or you just
(16:21):
never really get anywherebecause you're too busy
perseverating on the content.
And so I think that you workand you do live, ultimately, in
a residential treatment center.
A lot of your life is spentthere.
As much of your life as youspend in bed and with your
(16:43):
family is spent with the peoplewho do treatment and that sort
of thing, Our work lives and ourhome lives.
I think you do a pretty good jobbalancing, but I know you spend
a lot of time, Whereas out inthe world the parameters are not
the same.
We're not necessarily requiredto do work.
(17:04):
We're not necessarily requiredto engage in relationship that
is of depth or to kind of or toa large extent.
I think this is the big one.
Take accountability for what Iam in this situation.
And even even if you're working.
You know, for me and I thinkyou probably echo this if I find
myself in a situation or in arelationship with a person where
(17:26):
it really doesn't work, it'snot a match and there's a lot of
butting heads or whatever elseI'm like.
Why am I in this?
What about me called thisexperience to my life?
Why am I bumping up againstthese conflicts?
What is it that has caused me?
(17:46):
Obviously I must have needed tobring them to my visibility
again, right?
Um, because I've I've failed torecognize something or I failed
to work something.
So it's not to say that peoplearen't responsible for their
behavior.
They are.
But I have a lot more power andcontrol over where I'm
responsible for something andwhat I can do differently about
(18:09):
it than I am with other,expecting other people to behave
differently.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
You know what I mean and I prefer that I think when
we I think last time we spokeand I think I've been, uh,
pretty transparent about myjourney, but when you were
sharing that, it brought up alot of like.
So I'm in a journey of wellnessand I have to be accountable
and responsible for my actionsin order for me to have
sustained wellness.
It's just, I believe thatwholeheartedly, I cannot play
(18:37):
the victim role in recovery.
Personally I just can't.
And so it brought to mind whenI was doing the intensive work
in my own journey I came to aspot where I was looking at all
my resentments in my life andthere was this pattern.
There's this pattern ofex-partners right, and for the
(19:00):
sake of their anonymity we'lljust use generic names of who
they were, but say it's Judy,paula, barbara, amy and Helen.
Right, and in the victimmentality, there's one thing
that those five women had incommon and they all cheated on
me, all of them, they all wentoutside our committed
(19:22):
relationship and felt I had thatsense of betrayal.
Right, and once again, I'm nothere to minimize that traumatic,
how traumatizing that is whenyour sense of safety is ripped
apart from you because thatrelationship was so dear.
But now I have five experiencesand if I was in this, what
(19:43):
we're talking, this poppsychology I'm traumatized and I
can never be in anotherrelationship because no woman
can be trusted, because they allcheat right, these narcissistic
women.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Ladder of inference right, these narcissistic women,
Ladder of imprints right, rightNow.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Would you like to Todd, being the clinical man
that you are, would you like topossibly guess as to one other
thing they have in common?
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Oh yeah, when you look at all the problems in your
life, the one common thing thatyou can find in all those
scenarios is you.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Me.
And so the reason I share thatand I say that with Jess now is
that maybe, just maybe, I'm notas dateable as I think I am and
maybe, just maybe me leavingeach of them to go find cocaine
at 2 am in the morning was theirsense of betrayal and like.
(20:38):
So maybe I actually havemistakes and faults of my own in
this relationship that led butin this victim mentality I can
never, I would never, I wouldhave blinders to that Right,
because I'm the consummatevictim and how dare they treat
me like that?
And so I share that, becauseuntil I actually looked at my,
my responsibility in thatrelationship, I would never get
(21:01):
better.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
In terms of pop psychology.
If I didn't know any better, Iwould just be like oh, all women
are cheaters.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
They're all narcissistic.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
They're all narcissistic.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Right, yeah, well, it's like the.
You know, if you, if you keeprunning through roommate, every
person you get and bring intoyour apartment, situation never
works out and they're all badroommates.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
By a third or fourth bad roommate, you might be bad
roommate, I just might, and sowhat's neat is that you know,
and depending on where I'm at,but I'll, I'll, I'll personalize
this for me and this would bekind of like when we are working
with with clients that are arethat come in.
We'll just use the word termsbroken, right?
(21:44):
Um, we have to slowly repair,like maybe I just got to get my
life in order to become dateable, and maybe these are the my
attitudes and the way I speakand the way I conduct myself and
the way I dress and my physicalshape and my emotional wellness
and my mental wellness and myspiritual journey.
Maybe I should start toincorporate some wellness in
(22:06):
that and then I'd have a wholenew person to actually engage in
a relationship with.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Well, you know what you're talking about for most
people is terrifying, and I'mnot saying that's inaccurate.
I mean I think that if you'redoing that level of personal
work for yourself and makingsome monumental shift in the way
that you partner and live lifeand conduct yourself and take
(22:35):
care of yourself and andcommence with wellbeing, if the
first thing you could come upwith isn't terror, you probably
haven't looked closely enough,cause it's like it's terrifying,
it's worth it, and the road isa little long Any other areas
where kind of this overarchingterm has bled into the
(22:57):
mainstream culture and actuallypossibly causes more harm than
good.
I mean, you know, I think I seepeople, these large terms
because that's what they are,you know.
They point at something that'sugly and it's you know, it's
(23:19):
pervasive in our environments,and so this person goes and
takes power back.
But I I think that you kind ofnailed it on the head here is
that people are actuallyincredibly uncomfortable with
reflection.
Uh, they do not want to look athow they're responsible, what
things it is they need to do inorder to create a different life
(23:41):
for themselves, to be indifferent partnerships or
relationships, to have differentkind of outcomes in their life,
and in order to, instead ofdoing that, they grab these big
terms and they throw them asblame elements at their
environment.
You know, because I meanconsistent with people in
(24:03):
recovery and people in treatmentand everything else one
consistent theme you'll findwe've all been guilty of it
which is to blame others orthings outside of yourself for
what's going on with you orwhat's happened to you.
And I'm not saying thingsdidn't happen and people weren't
didn't do bad things, but youknow, you're the common
denominator and you're also theperson who can be responsible
(24:26):
for making things different andand creating change and it's
almost like a more externallocus versus internal locus and
I think that that's the deeperpsychology of our social media
and you know we've got thisbetter in pictures model kind of
thing going on about you knowwhat a good life looks like, and
this person did thisincredible thing and went to
this great place and took apicture in front of this wall.
(24:48):
That's somewhere, amazing.
You know, we've got this.
Outward things make me looklike a person of worth and value
.
Yeah, where I've been, whatI've done, who I'm associated
with, deepak Chopra.
In one of his more recent bookshe talks about this.
He talks about referent powerand internal power.
(25:13):
So referent power is power thatyou have as a result of the car
you drive and the job you haveand the people you know and the
house you live in, etc.
That's reverent power.
These things that I'massociated with or have.
They give me this visibility ofpower, but it's an illusion in
many ways.
The only real power that existsis internal power the power
(25:35):
that if I believe that I'm aperson of worth not because of
what I own or what I do or who Iknow but I can look at myself
and I can accept myself and Iknow who I am warts and all and
I love that person and I valuemyself and, as a result, I have
(25:57):
internal worth.
That's life law.
That's something that's hard tocorrupt.
I can take away your house andyour car and you can lose a job
and all those things can go away.
So we're very much living in asociety in my view that's
referent power driven much livein a society in my view that's
(26:24):
referent power driven.
We also tend to seem to take theself out of self-worth.
You're right, I was looking forthe acronym.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
I'm like sel, oh self right yeah, I, I am funny if
you laugh, I'm good looking ifyou click like or somebody
swipes, right, but inherently,oh, I mean, that's a whole other
ballgame.
I think what's neat about thatis, if I work on the inherent,
(26:49):
the internal power, I actuallydon't need the external.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Right.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
I'm not actually going to be seeking status,
which is actually, when youthink about what, what true
narcissism is.
It's almost like a grab forunearned status.
It's let me get this elevatedsense of prestige without the
(27:17):
inherent work that's needed.
Did we talk about the hill andthe helicopter last time?
Speaker 1 (27:26):
No, I don't think we did.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
So when I talk with clients I say let's go to the
top of a mountain.
Being from Philly, I think ofRocky putting his hands in
victory.
But it's if I get in ahelicopter at the valley and we
take a ride up to the top of themountain and they drop me off,
I can raise my hands in victoryand that that view is nice.
(27:52):
Take the picture right, let meget the lights.
But the reality is, the beautyof the mountaintop is the
struggle of the valley, it's thefalls along the way, it's the
wanting to give up when I thinkI can't do it, it's the scrapes
and the bruises and the doubt.
That's what makes themountaintop so beautiful.
(28:12):
It's the work to get there.
That's how we kind of startedthis.
I think a life worth living anda life of purpose is completely
analogous to the not to goChristian on you, but the size
of the cross that you bear.
That is where we're going tofind the worth, because if
everything's given to me, what'sanother car?
(28:36):
I look at these.
They have 30 cars in theirgarage.
They probably don't evenremember where they were when
they bought the second one.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Or how many they have .
Sometimes Maybe that's true.
That's not to say that somebodyhasn't lived a life, and just
because they're prosperousdoesn't mean that they haven't
done these things right.
But you know I think that it'swhat you're referring to as well
is that the work is constant,always.
(29:07):
You know, you just can't likethere's no the Rocky moment,
like you're saying.
It's like, oh yeah, I reachedit.
Okay, great, you know, let'sroll on back home, like Rocky
still had to keep training, yeahyeah, there's another mountain.
There's another mountain.
Holy crap, there's another oneover there.
You know there's always thisjourney and you're talking about
something you know in referenceto the garage you bear, victor
(29:33):
Frankl.
One of his main quotes is youknow, be worthy of your
suffering.
Now, you may have, you may havedone this journey.
That was a journey of suffering, a journey and you certainly
know this from your own personalstory but it's you know.
You're a person who's turnedthat into something that is of
(29:53):
great value and worth, not onlyto you and your family, but also
to the people that you workwith and the organization that
you serve.
I think you've genuinely becomeworthy of your suffering.
I hope that I've done the same,but I'm conscious of it all the
time.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Sure, yeah, I do believe that the pain,
personally, the pain I've beenthrough my falls, my collapses,
my like that's the best thing Ihave going for me, right, in
order to be helpful to someoneelse, like you know, it's much
(30:31):
easier for you to believe thatthe smile is genuine if you know
that of the pain I come from,whereas I just walk around with
a smile, I'll be like oh, whatdo they call those people?
Uh, fake, you can't be.
You can't be optimistic likewell, I mean not always, but you
can be um but I think optimismis a state that I choose right,
(30:56):
I, and, and.
so if I am entering into atreatment facility or if
something's happening in my lifeand I immediately just think
that you're gaslighting mebecause your opinion is
different, like I'm never goingto have to actually go, take
that journey within to thosepainful moments.
Yeah, I'll always be a constantvictim.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Well, I think that what we're talking about here is
a bit of a like.
You know, for a person whomight be listening, there's a
warning If you're bandying abouta lot of psychological terms
you know these pop psychologyterms and that sort of thing
then why are you doing that?
(31:40):
I mean, you and I both knowthat if someone is gaslighting
others, or if they are genuinelynarcissistic, pointing it out
to them is not the way to helpthem get better.
That's not the path.
If you're throwing stuff outlike this and you come to
(32:05):
realize that what you're doingis trying to take power back
over people, it's like where andwhy do you feel disempowered?
What is it that's causing youto have to fill the God-sized
hole in your soul withplatitudes and pop psychology
and blame and chaos and disorder, because that's what that
(32:28):
creates in your life.
If you're experiencing thesethings on some level I think
that I've had the term thrown atme before it's like you're
gaslighting me.
Gaslighting, it's like you'regaslighting me.
I'm like no, I'm disagreeingwith you.
Disagree, and that's differentthan gaslighting you.
(32:49):
I'm not saying that you don'tbelieve what you're saying.
I'm just saying that theinformation that we're talking
about and the conclusion thatyou reach is different than the
conclusion I reach based on thesame information.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
And so, if we have, I guess we should probably have a
general definition of whatgaslighting is.
But if it is the coercion, well, how would you define
gaslighting?
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Coercion?
How would you definegaslighting?
I've looked it up a couple oftimes and I think that it gets
vague.
But I think what it is is whena person, when you're saying
something about your experienceor you're communicating with
another person, and they takethat information and one they
(33:36):
doubt that you are drawing itfrom real experience, they doubt
your validity as a person who'squalified for saying it, and
then they start to wrap theirown sentences around and they
know what actually that you knowthey are using it as a moment
for manipulation.
If they can cause you to doubtyourself and, in the course of
(33:57):
doubt, believe what they aresaying yes, Then that's a highly
manipulative tactic.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
And I think, as we mentioned, it does happen.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
It does happen.
It does happen 100%.
There are people out theredoing it all the time.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
They question their reality based on a different set
of beliefs or opinions of anexperience.
But that also happens everytime I've ever like.
I'm 48 years old now.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Uh-oh Getting close.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
What I believe about insert subject is different than
what I believed when I was 21.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
100%.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
But that doesn't mean I've been gaslit.
It just means that I've had toquestion my own reality, right,
my own, my own concrete set ofbeliefs about what this is.
Because a new experience waslike oh might be something
different here, which is whathappens in normal dialogue.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Right, well, and I think if you had, your kids
aren't quite teenagers yet.
Is that right, dimeca?
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Oh, my One, soon One, soon right One in 11 days.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
I think if teenagers and we might see this, like you
know, with parents it's like whydo you keep on gaslighting me,
like I'm not gaslighting you?
I'm telling you I'm not givingyou the keys to the car because
you're not ready to drive it yetand I don't want you to be out
past 11 and you know, like me,setting boundaries with you is
not gaslighting.
I think that's where that stuffcan get used and what that
teenager would be doing istrying to edge you over to their
(35:30):
side and give them what theywant.
Ultimately, you know right, butI, I, when people do this in
such a way, I don't think thatanybody who's genuinely
gaslighting someone, if theyfind themselves in an
environment where, or context orrelationship where that's going
on, I think a lot of times theydon't realize it.
(35:50):
They don't see it because theperson's being very masterful
yeah, about how execute it.
I can see it, I work in thefield and I'm like okay.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
There is that dark tetrad of personality types,
right the sadism and thepsychopathy, and the.
Machiavellianism, that stuffreally does the narcissism.
Those are some.
Those are some very very.
I remember, uh, there's one,there's one client that came out
(36:23):
and I know why this is comingup, but we were, there was a
this is a old treatment centerand there was a client passed by
, a client overdosed, and theygathered all the other clients
together to kind of processright, Because one of one of
them had passed.
And, um, you could tell thatthis, this guy was just very
(36:46):
bothered, bothered that his timewith his therapist was taken up
because this person had diedand I was.
but he had that, he had thatblank stare and I was like right
, there it is there it is thereit is he's, this death is
inconveniencing his time, which,uh and so that.
(37:11):
So, when I share that, becauseI've actually I think I've
actually come into the realm ofmeeting that darkness, there's
some.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Yeah, I think it lives within us.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
That doesn't mean, everybody is like that.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
I correct people.
There are times when people usethe word narcissism.
Well, they're a narcissist.
I said well, I think they'reself-absorbed.
I said, well, I think they'reself-absorbed.
You know, they're so wrapped upin their own experience.
It's very hard for them toidentify or see how it relates
(37:46):
to others or that others arehaving an experience as a result
of their behavior.
They're self-absorbed.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
And that's different than narcissism.
And just because you're vain,vanity might be a part of
narcissism, but it doesn't meaneverybody that is vain is a
narcissist right there's just.
There's a deeper level.
I mean, when you look at the,the origin, right from
narcissist, uh, the story, theperson that fell in love with
himself like the vanity in thepool, that was one part of the
story.
(38:14):
But to to bring in that groupthat's greek, a greek story into
oh, he's obsessed with hisreflection right so there's a
whole lot more.
There's a whole lot more goingon there, and there's a whole
lot more going on to what a Ithink a true narcissist is
versus oh, they're self-absorbed.
Well, most humans are.
(38:34):
I always tell as a joke in therecovery journey I have, there's
this line that basically saysthat selfishness is the root of
our problems, right, and so Ialways when I'm going through
with a guy, that's new and I waslike all right, do me a favor,
clear your brain for a second,and I want you just to think of
(38:54):
something other than what youwant to think about right now.
Let me know when you're ready,and you can't.
You can't stop thinking aboutwhat you want to think about,
because that's that's what wethink about.
We are inherently wired tothink about what we want to
think about.
Now we could be trained to takeothers into consideration, but I
think inherently, we always.
You know, it's like I have myfavorite meal and Netflix does a
(39:18):
good job Tells me what I wantto see.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
Yeah Things you might enjoy.
I'm like, you know what Iactually would enjoy that I just
posted this quote not too longago.
I think it's Thoreau Um, but uh, it takes the average human
being about two years to learnthe English language.
It takes them about 60 to learnhow to be quiet.
It's true, I think we're at alarge like.
(39:51):
You know, what you're talkingabout is empty mind, right,
which is a practice.
Like to have empty mind is apractice.
I think we try it in a lot ofdifferent ways Video gaming, we
tune out, we veg out, we do allthese things, but it's not
actually a practice of emptymind, is it?
Speaker 2 (40:14):
We're not thinking, but we're not empty yeah, and,
and the thoughts are kind ofcascading over us, not cascading
into us right, right, right.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
We're just observant of all these things that are
going by, like there's a, youknow, in between, in between
your thoughts, there's a,there's a space, you know, in
between thought and actionthere's a gap, there's a space
in between thought and action.
There's a space right, and inthat space you've got a lot of
room to make some, make someinformed decisions if you want.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
So what do you think we can do to so we don't want to
too much of an overcorrection,right Like once the the right
goes too far, then we have to goleft and left goes too far.
Like, once the right goes toofar, then we have to go left and
left goes too far, we got to goright.
Like, how do we actually justbring it if, assuming we've gone
too far, where everybody'sbeing gaslit and everybody has a
(41:04):
trigger warning and everybodyis a narcissist and normalizing
abnormal, is what can we?
What do you think we can dobesides having this radio show
broadcast to the masses?
Speaker 1 (41:21):
That's a good question.
I mean, I think we need to keeptalking about it.
I think that part of it is alsoengaged in this living practice
of it with others.
You know, with our wives andour friends and our communities,
that we, you know we putjudgment on the backseat,
(41:41):
because judgment that's whatleads to it.
Right?
You have these snap judgmentsand all of a sudden, you're.
I've got my moments where I'mimpatient driving in the car and
you're angry.
It's like get out of my way.
Who's this person, this jerk?
And it's like I don't know ifthey're a jerk.
Maybe they're just not payingattention, Maybe they're having
a bad day.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
Maybe they're trying to get somewhere.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
Maybe they're, you know, 86 years old and they can
barely see and terrified beingin the car and it's the only way
they can get about like I don'tknow what their situation is.
Man, yeah, I'm not saying thatjerks don't exist out there.
They certainly do do.
But probably a lot more of theworld is just having a bad,
having having a hard time anddealing with some difficult
things.
I think that's true for a lotof us and, um, a little
(42:23):
compassion is a good way to doit.
How to build more compassion?
I'm not sure.
Uh, I think that we're we'relacking in compassion for each
other and I think so too.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Yeah, I think so too.
I think what's unfortunate isdue to the, maybe the
overemphasis of being triggeredright Trigger warnings
everywhere.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
Right.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
What that does is that leads to like a callousness
of some.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
And then they take advantage of that.
Like then the true ones thatwe're worried about, they love
that Because now they're goingto actually take advantage of
that.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
I don't even like the word trigger.
To be honest with you.
It's like you got triggered.
Somebody said something or didsomething and I had feelings
about it.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
I felt.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
That's true about everything that happens in my
life.
I feel some way towards justabout everything.
Just because you could see thereaction, you know, or I had
strong feelings about it.
It's like does it have to be atrigger warning?
Do we have to live in atrigger-happy environment?
Can we stop?
Speaker 2 (43:37):
Yeah, I felt a certain way, which is wonderful
because we've been talking for abit now and I've had an array
of feelings come through this,but I wouldn't say whether it
was good or bad.
I don't think any of them weretriggering.
They just I felt.
And when we leave, I'm going togo through more experiences and
(43:59):
I'm going to feel.
Yeah, it's almost kind of howyou, how you said, like we got
to get to a spot where we canregulate our ups and downs,
where they don't have to be sospiky, Cause it's in the spikes.
I think that those maybeirrational.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
I agree.
There's certainly material thatlive in all of us that causes
us to have strong reactions tosomething that's happening in
our world.
I mean that happens for all ofus.
There's a quote by I think it'sby Parker Palmer it's when in
doubt turn to wonder.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
All, a sense of all.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
A sense of all or just live it in the question.
It's just like I don't knowwhat that means.
You know, I feel these things,but my feelings don't
necessarily have to tell me whatthis means.
Let me cut the layers back alittle bit.
Let me cut past my triggermarks and my experiences and my
judgments and my values.
(45:00):
Let me just.
What does it mean without anyof that?
Does it have a meaning?
Is this person that said meanthings to me?
Was it about me?
Okay, why did I take it thatway?
What about that material andthat exchange caused me to take
this this way?
Why did I do that?
(45:22):
Yeah, I mean, and I'll you know,just to be candid and honest, I
had a recent experience where Igot very irritated, even loud,
at a gentleman.
I did, it was true, I was upsetwith the way he behaved and the
way he was conducting himself,and I let him know in a rather
demonstrative way, shall we say.
(45:45):
And then I came back and my kidswere like Dad, you know, and I
was like and so I dug in and I'mlike, oh crap, yeah, dug in and
I'm like, oh crap, yeah, I'm 50, I'm about to be 54, and this
is the same period of time whenmy dad started to go into
(46:05):
diabetes, so we've got in ourfamily and everything else.
I'm like, dude, your bloodsugar was low and you snapped
yeah.
And I'm like, oh crap, now I'mgonna have to do even more to
like, watch my diet, to watch mydiet and watch these elements
which have a dramatic impact onyour regulation.
So it was like I could havespent this time justifying my
(46:28):
behavior, and what I did is it'snot really characteristic for
me.
I'm not going to spend a lot oftime trying to say he was right
or I was wrong or anything else.
It's like, well, why did I do?
Why?
Speaker 2 (46:39):
did I do that.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
And then it caused me to reflect and look back and
I'm like, oh, I bet your bloodsugar was low and now that means
something different, cause whenyou were 20, it meant you got a
little grumpy and needed to getsomething to eat.
When you're 50, something itmeans something else.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
Yeah, you know that energy you could have spent well
we sometimes we spend defendingour rightness.
That's right, let me tell youhow right I am.
Where it's much easier to kindof explore, not where I'm wrong
but where you're accurate.
Speaker 1 (47:19):
Yeah, when?
Because in every dialogue.
Speaker 2 (47:20):
There's going to be some nuggets we can learn from
right.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
Yeah, is there something here?
Is there information here forme?
Right, mr John?
I just spend the rest of theday talking about this with you.
Just really enjoy your, your,your presence and your
thoughtfulness and yourquestions, and I'm so happy to
have you on the show again.
I'm certain we'll have more tocome, but this has been WPBM
(47:48):
1037, the voice of Asheville.
I'm Todd Weatherly, your host,and John, thanks once again.
Speaker 2 (47:55):
God bless you, sir.
Speaker 1 (47:56):
We'll be with you next time.
I found you in this.
I found you in this.
I found you in this.
(48:20):
I found you in this.
I found you in this.
I found you in this.
I found you in this.
I found you in this.
I found you in this.
(49:29):
I found you in this.
Thank you, bye.
I feel so lonely and lost inhere.
I need to find my way home.
I feel so lonely and lost inhere.
I need to find my way home.
I feel so lonely and lost inhere.
I need to find my way home.
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