August 4, 2025 • 46 mins
Sally Raymond, a psychotherapist and mother, shares how her brilliant son John's suicide catapulted her into a lifelong mission to understand what she missed and help other parents recognize warning signs. Through her heartbreak and professional training, she discovered how early childhood experiences and developmental stages can create vulnerabilities that might contribute to suicidal thoughts later in life.
• John's broken collarbone at birth created trust issues that affected his entire life
• Early childhood developmental stages create foundations for later resilience or vulnerability
• Academic success can sometimes mask internal struggles
• Signs of suicidal thoughts include isolation, sleep changes, and sudden mood improvements
• Asking directly about suicidal thoughts doesn't put the idea in someone's mind
• Sally developed school programs teaching communication and leadership skills
• Every person is the center of a galaxy of relationships that changes when they're gone
• Processing grief requires finding purpose and meaning in the loss
If you or someone you know is having thoughts of suicide, please reach out. Call or text 988 to connect with a trained crisis counselor 24-7, or look for your local helpline.
Check out Sally's Book here: The Son I Knew Too Late: A Guide To Help You Survive And Thrive
Check out her website at: https://sallyaraymond.com/
*Please know that some links I share will give me a small amount of money to thank me for sending you their way. This is at no extra cost to you and helps me buy a cup of coffee if I'm lucky. :-)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
John was the biggest wake-up call I could ever, ever,
ever imagine, and he put me ona path I would never be on any
other way.
Suicide is such a big deal.
It's drawing so many, so manypeople not just the person who
dies, but a whole galaxy ofpeople around them.
That will never be the sameagain.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Welcome to Advancing with Amy, mental health warrior
and neuro-spicy mama.
In today's deeply movingepisode, we sit down with Sally
Raymond.
She's a mother, apsychotherapist and a fierce
advocate whose world was foreverchanged by the loss of her
brilliant son, john to suicide.
(00:45):
Through heartbreak andperseverance, sally has turned
unimaginable pain into apowerful mission to help parents
and communities recognize thesubtle signs of struggle, foster
resilience and cultivate hopeat every stage of life.
Join us as we listen to Sally'shonest and courageous story a
(01:09):
journey from devastation toadvocacy, as she shares the
hard-won lessons she wishedshe'd known sooner.
This isn't just a story of loss.
It's a testament to the healingpower of connection, the
importance of trust and theunwavering love between a mother
and her child.
If you or someone you love hasever faced mental health
(01:31):
challenges, this episode offersunderstanding, comfort and
inspiration to keep movingforward.
Let's begin this conversationwith Sally, whose vulnerability
and determination remind us thatevery person's life is at the
center of a galaxy and that hope, even after great loss, can be
(01:52):
found and shared.
Sally, thank you for being here.
Can you take us back to themoment on your journey when this
mission began for you, themoment that changed everything
for you as a mom?
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Oh, thank you very much, amy.
I certainly can.
I was just a normal mom raisingtwo little boys as a single
parent, and my eldest was thebrightest little light I've ever
seen in my life.
He was reading at two, he wasgiving me 45-minute debates on
why he didn't need to make hisbed at six and he was winning.
(02:28):
And I knew I had to go back toschool to keep up with his
little upstart and stay the mom,you know, because he had to
still listen to me and obey meand he wasn't going to if he
didn't have any, if I didn'thave any credibility.
And so because of him, I had toget straight A's, because he
(02:48):
never got a B and I had to endup graduating with highest
honors when I was a C student inhigh school and perfectly happy
about it.
So he really was my Pygmalion,wow.
And the moment that changed mylife as I was just becoming a
licensed psychotherapist.
He had graduated from CarnegieMellon at 21 with his bachelor's
(03:10):
and master's, and I was theproudest, happiest and most
successful mom in the world.
And a year and a half later hekilled himself, and none of my
stories about my son could haveended that way.
My stories about my son couldhave ended that way.
I just saw a superstarrocketing to the stars and I did
not see how he could havepossibly how it could have ended
(03:32):
like that, and I was justbecoming a psychotherapist.
I just had the training andtools most moms never have and I
and I was catapulted.
That moment catapulted me outon a mission to find out what I
missed, and did you ever come upwith that?
(03:54):
I came up with a hundred stories, amy, and all of them were
things I either didn't know ordidn't understand before.
But with my new training Icould look back and now see what
fit his bottom line, whichwould have been and then I
killed myself.
Wow, and it started at birth.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
It started at birth.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Started at birth.
There were so many stories andat every age there was a story
that really took him from growthand excitement to
demoralization.
And I didn't see it happening.
As most parents, we're here tolead to life, lead to hope,
(04:36):
believe in our children, look atthe positive and we miss the
negative.
And at birth I was a brand newmom.
I'd never had a kid before, Iwasn't used to babies and he was
crying.
All the negative.
And at birth I was a brand newmom.
I'd never had a kid before, Iwasn't used to babies and he was
crying all the time and I wasbeside myself trying to take
care of him and you know, upmaybe 30 times a night and I was
(04:57):
calling my pediatrician, my newpediatrician, who was an
elderly man I picked because Ithought he was so seasoned.
I didn't think that maybe hewas becoming senile and anyway
he kept saying, oh, it's justcolic, and he'd give me stuff
for colic and it didn't help him.
But he said it lasts threemonths and then it'll be over
(05:19):
and everything will be fine.
But my baby was crying andcrying and crying and I couldn't
stop him and I couldn't soothehim and I tried my best and it
was just on and on and on and atthree months he was still
crying and I called that doctorback up and I said you said it'd
be over, and he's still cryingas hard as ever.
(05:41):
And he said well, maybe it'sthe four-month colic or the
five-month, and I just lost it.
I just hung up on him and Icalled my friends in a panic and
they steered me to anotherpediatrician who I called
immediately and he said bringhim in.
And I brought my baby boy in andhe took his clothes off and he
(06:02):
was examining him and he said oh, feel right here.
He just felt right here, rightat the shoulder, and he said
feel that lump right there.
He broke his collarbone inbirth, oh my gosh.
And he said it's starting toheal now, but that's what's been
hurting him.
So whenever he moved or Ipicked him up which I did all
(06:23):
the time trying to soothe him Iwas hurting him.
But you had no idea.
No, but it didn't matter,because the damage was, from
that point on, whenever I couldsee it now I couldn't see it
before, but whenever I go topick him up, his eyes would be
looking wary and then you knowhe'd try to pull back away from
(06:47):
you.
And that continued, amy, almostall of his life.
He would shy away from touch,he would be like no, because he
learned from the very beginningof his life that touch somebody
touching him, holding him,trying to love him was going to
hurt him.
How heartbreaking.
(07:07):
It was.
It was.
I was absolutely beside myselfand I didn't know what to say to
him.
Of course he was a little tinyand when he was about 10, I, I
think I, that's when I finallythought he was old enough and I
told him.
I said you know, the reason whyyou keep backing away and
shying away from touch isbecause and I told him what
(07:29):
happened and all he said waswell, I'm glad I know where it
came from, but what do I doabout it?
And at that time I was just amom and I just said you know,
john, I don't know, but I'lltell you one thing it not who
you are, it's not.
It's not formal, it's not.
It's not who you are, it's whathappened to you.
(07:49):
It's something that happened toyou so early that you have this
automatic reflex.
But it's not.
It's not who you are, it isn't.
It isn't.
It was just something thathorrible that happened, that
never got caught and I didndidn't know any better and I
didn't understand it.
No, and that's as much as Icould do, but that's the.
(08:11):
Actually, I now know as apsychologist that if you don't
have, if you have cannot trustat the beginning of your life,
trust is the biggest issue's,the first issue out of the womb,
and if you can't trust which hecouldn't, he couldn't trust me.
I was going to hurt him.
That has a high associationwith suicide later on.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yeah, and you don't know how important it is to bond
with your baby and be there forhim and really, you know, take
care.
I should have had a secondopinion right away.
I should have done it, but Itrusted the first doctor and I
didn't know any better.
But now I do and I'd be like,oh, I should have gotten a
second opinion right away.
(08:56):
It would have changedeverything.
But as it was, this is whathappened.
So that was the very firstinsult that he really fielded.
It was none of his fault and itwas totally my fault because I
didn't do what I could have done.
And that was a horrible,horrible, horrible lacuna on my
(09:18):
part and I didn't know howimportant trust was.
If I'd known that trust was thebiggest thing and if I saw him
crying all the time, I'd besaying I've got to, I've got to
get help, I've got it, I've gotto do something about this,
because otherwise I'll never.
I'll never be able to live withmyself if I don't do my best.
But at the time I believe Ijust trusted my doctor and he he
(09:41):
just was pushing it off to thiscolic thing that it was never
that.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Well, you were doing the best that you knew, at that
time, to do.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
It doesn't help the situation Right.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
It almost goes to say that people should be.
I think people should getparenting training in high
school, but I never thoughtabout getting trained so that
your child doesn't hurtthemselves later in life.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Yeah, I mean, you don't know the long-term effects
of something.
That's such an initialexperience.
It's the first experience outof the womb and so that's huge,
huge downstream effects.
And at every new age there's adifferent issue that we are
fielding, because it's a growthissue.
It's helping equip us and if wedon't have it resolved in a
(10:32):
positive way then it's going toundermine the stage next and the
next and the next.
I didn't know any of that andthat's what my book is.
It talks about the differentissues at every stage.
The first issue is trust.
The second issue is to be ableto walk around, and to move
(10:52):
around and be autonomous.
And you're just beginning towalk and if you're not allowed
to do that, it's going toabsolutely make you feel what
you interject is you're no good.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
You're no good and there's shame and guilt, and I
know you've taken a lot of timeto research this and to figure
out what caused this, and you'veobviously got an idea.
How do you live with that?
I mean, is there some guiltthere or?
Speaker 1 (11:24):
You know, I just had to find out every single thing I
could, and I didn't care whatit did, you know what it meant
to me or anything.
I just had to find out everysingle thing I possibly could,
and I couldn't live with myselfif I didn't.
And I had to know what hisexperience was.
And I realized I have made alot of innocent mistakes I
(11:46):
didn't mean to make.
I mean, I didn't know they weremistakes at the time.
But I sure know that otherparents are making exactly the
same mistakes now that I did,and they're doing the same to
their children as they did toJohn.
And because I couldn't saveJohn's life which I had no idea
that I thought he was doinggreat and I got the call.
(12:08):
You can't survive, and I didn'tsurvive.
I died as a mom.
I have no idea who that personwas anymore.
That person died with John.
I didn't know who I was, Ididn't know his story, I didn't
know my story.
I didn't know anything anymore,and so I was.
I didn't know his story, Ididn't know my story, I didn't
know anything anymore, and so Idied.
And because I was now atherapist, all I could do was
(12:31):
try to find out where I wentwrong and then help save other
people, and I feel like.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
I feel like you're grieving not only him, but who
you were.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Oh, yeah, I mean.
But at the same time I thinkthat girl she deserved to die
because she blew it, and I feellike I have no respect for that
girl.
I have no interest in knowinganything about her anymore.
She's gone, she's gone, she'sabsolutely gone in my life.
But I do go to the grave twice ayear to talk to him and he
(13:06):
really is still here as far asI'm concerned.
I know he's still here and he'shelping me make the most out of
his life in a way that wouldhelp other people, and that's
what I feel like our job is tomake his life a teaching, a
sacrificial teaching for therest of us, so that we don't
(13:27):
make the same mistakes and welearn.
And we do the opposite.
We help children throughouttheir lives know how to keep
life worth living.
And that's really reallyimportant today, because right
now we're looking at thedissolution of our society and a
whole lot of other things andwe've lost the glue that kept
(13:47):
society together and cohesiveand thriving.
And that is what I am about andthat's what I am trying to.
I'm working to try and correctand teach, because if we don't,
we're lost.
Oh, I agree.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Do you feel like you're a much stronger person
now than because of all?
Speaker 1 (14:08):
this.
I've always been a kind of abuoyant person.
I was very lucky to have themom I had.
She was an Italian mom and youdidn't mess with my mom, but she
really gave me some incrediblywonderful parenting skills by
what she did with me and I sawhow well it worked and I feel
(14:32):
very blessed in that way and Iuse the same tools that she used
on me, on my kids, and theywere the straightest arrows you
ever saw.
That's funny and I felt very,very blessed, and I really do,
because I don't know what it isabout me, but I do have a very
(14:54):
buoyant spirit and with John hewas such a success in his life I
mean, he was the mostsuccessful young man I have ever
seen in my life.
He was the most successfulyoung man I have ever seen in my
life.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
And to think, he was even my son is just stunning,
and to think about where hecould have gone and what he
could have done.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Well, he had his bachelor's and master's in
theoretical math at 21.
Wow, he had eclipsed threeyears of regular school and he
was the only survivor of hiscohort at Carnegie Mellon.
There were 33 handpicked,highly select, worldwide
(15:33):
students that he was a cohort ofat the beginning of the program
and he was the only one left.
32 crashed and burned and Idon't know if any of those
committed suicide, but they verywell could have.
And John had tremendoussurvivor guilt because he was
(15:53):
the only success and all theothers that would have been his
colleagues for the rest of theirlives, and his friends and
everything else were gone and itwas tragic.
And to think that CarnegieMellon or any of these
universities that are eliteuniversities would actually
(16:13):
create a program that is so hardthat 32 of 33 would crash and
burn is heinous.
That is F to the institutionfor creating an impossible
course of study.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
I agree it says something about the course of
study and less about the student.
Oh my, gosh.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
I mean, the Fs are the institution that is on the
institution to create somethingthat nobody can survive except
one of 33.
And my son had written usbefore his graduation and he
said I am now the only one lefton track for this mission degree
program.
And he said, if I had knownwhen I was 3.03% of the entering
(17:00):
class that I would be the 100%of the graduating class, I would
never have accepted Well, whowould, with those statistics?
And yet that's what theycreated.
And then all the money thatwent into those 32 kids, that
their parents, and all the hopesand dreams and possibilities
(17:21):
that were shattered for nothing.
And then the school was free todo that again next year and
next year and next year.
It's just.
It's impossible to realize whattheir part in creating John's
success and everyone else'sfailure really have.
But it's horrible.
(17:42):
It's a gulag.
They put him in a gulag andthat you think you trust.
You know I trusted theuniversity.
This is going to be great.
John is going to do so good andthen he's going to have
colleagues.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
He's going to have all these people and no, nothing
, no, it was set up against allthe students Right, and that has
to be so isolating and you haveto feel so alone at that point.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Yeah, absolutely Isolate and furious.
He wrote that he would nevergive Carnegie Mellon a dime in
support.
So he was thinking of living.
But he was so furious becausehe'd watched all of his
wonderful, wonderful cohort dropout one by one, by one, by one,
by one by one, and that wasjust impossible.
So there was a lot.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Yeah.
What do you think he would sayabout what you're doing now?
Speaker 1 (18:38):
I think he would say I have a lot more to do.
John was a tough cookie.
I mean, he always was the onewho questioned every single
thing you said, every singlething you did.
I mean it was so hard to be hismom because he asked such good
questions and I was trying mybest to answer them.
(18:59):
And one time he and his brotherwent to visit his dad and I
guess he was about 10 or 11 atthe time and his dad called me
up and he said we've got to sendJohn to military school.
And I went, what?
I was like what do you mean?
And he said we have to send himto military school.
I said I heard you.
But I said but why?
(19:24):
And he said because he'squestioning me.
And I'm like yeah, okay, butwhat is he doing wrong?
And he said didn't you hear me?
I told you he's questioned andI was like I understand, but
what is he doing wrong?
And my ex was just gettingmadder and saying you are an
idiot, you are the blah, blah,blah.
And I finally said look, is hedoing anything illegal?
(19:46):
No, is he doing poorly inschool?
No, is he not getting alongwith people?
No, and why would you put aperfectly good kid in.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
I understand the feeling, though I have a
daughter who is highlyintelligent.
She's got autism, but she'svery intelligent and I think
she's been more intelligent thanI have been since she was very
young.
She's 15 now and she likes todebate me to the nth degree, so
I totally get it.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Yes, and my ex is.
Obviously he's a patriarchalkind of mindset, and you don't
question the patriarch.
Well, I'm not like that.
I mean, my parents wereegalitarian and so we're all
equals, and so if he had beenunder his dad's purview he
wouldn't have been able to askthose questions or he would have
been put away, and that wouldhave gone right away.
(20:40):
I mean, john would have killedhimself right then for sure.
Well, yeah, because he couldn'tbe himself Exactly.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
So tell me, with your training and your knowledge now
, do you think that helped youheal in any way or be more
resilient?
Speaker 1 (20:55):
I feel that what I'm doing is what I must do to right
the wrongs and take the wrongsfrom a negative to a positive,
to give to the others what Icouldn't give my son because I
didn't know, and now that he hasmade me learn things the
hardest way possible, that Iwould never have learned any
(21:17):
other way than if he had livedand died.
And that is what I think is hisgift.
And it's my job to turn thatgift into the greatest gift the
world could ever have, becauseJohn really really was a person
that could have saved the world.
He really had all that.
(21:39):
You couldn't believe what hehad turned into by the time he
graduated.
He was the most magnificentyoung man I have ever seen in my
life and I really do believe hecould have saved the world, and
other people have said the samething.
So it's not just me and he wasjust the most amazing person
(22:00):
ever I mean ever and I thinkthat he was a sacrifice for the
greater good and I'm making surehe is.
I am not going to.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
It's incredible that you're doing that.
What would you say to a newparent nowadays that thinks
everything's fine and isn'tworried at all?
Speaker 1 (22:19):
I'd say, read my book and take it to heart, and read
it over and over and take itwith you at every stage of life,
because it'll help you keeplife worth the living for your
child and yourself.
It will also heal you.
It will help you heal too,because these things are all.
Every single person goesthrough the same stages of life
(22:40):
and they have the same needsevery single stage.
And if you know that, you knowhow to apply it to yourself, you
know how to apply it to yourchildren or your parents or your
friends or anything at all, andit works.
And so that's something wenever knew is what was going
inside, inside the black box ofthe person, about what matters,
what doesn't matter, what'scritical, what isn't critical.
(23:02):
This tells you that, and it wasthe work of Eric Erickson.
He was a psychosocial theorist,he was a contemporary of Freud
and yet he didn't believe inwhat Freud was saying.
But he said it's an interactionbetween the environment and the
internal personality of thechild and that helps us grow.
(23:23):
And he did a tremendousanalysis.
And when I first read Erickson'swork, my son was in Carnegie
Mellon and he was doing greatand I kept thinking why didn't I
know about this?
Why am I reading it now, when Ineeded it years and years ago
(23:43):
and I was like gosh.
This would have been absolutelycritical information to know.
And it's simple, it's not hard,anyone can get it, and yet it's
not been ever given to thepublic.
So with my book I used John'sstories as the emotional content
(24:05):
to marry with the informationthat Eric Erickson says, so as
you can see how the stair stepswork throughout life and at
every stage of life, john hitsomething that was really
profound, that had a tremendouseffect on that particular issue
at the time.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Right and just compounded.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
It compounded and compounded.
So as I saw him rising to thestars, I didn't see that he was
doing it as a kind of a traumaresponse, that it was pushing
him to do something soimpossible that nobody else
could do it.
But it was actually a symptomof the traumas.
(24:41):
That makes sense.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Yeah, yeah, and you wouldn't have known at the time.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Oh, I just saw the outside of the rocket ship going
to the stars and I was likethis kid is unbelievable, but I
didn't see what was powering itall.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
When you wrote the book.
Do you feel like that was atherapeutic thing or do you feel
like it opened up old wounds?
Speaker 1 (25:05):
I mean, after every story I wrote I would have to
spend months just grieving, justcompletely lost.
I couldn't bear to go back, Icouldn't bear to do anything.
It would take me months aftereach one to pull myself together
, to start to do more researchand see the next thing that I
(25:26):
needed to know.
It took years it took a totalof 28 years to write and I
didn't give myself time off.
But I wrote many, manydifferent edits and I had to
have many angels showed up tohelp me do it.
They really did.
I got the most incredible editorand whether I was in the
hospital, I told never, I'dnever walk again or whatever.
(25:50):
She was like we're finishingthis book.
That's great, right, we foughtover every word and she always
won.
Sounds like a labor of love.
It was a labor of love and thetwo of us worked together and I
have so much love and respectfor her because she really
helped me put this together in away that would help other
(26:11):
people the best way possible.
But now I'm working on a lot ofother things, because there's
just so much for people to knowthese days.
What's the name of your book?
Oh, it's called the Son.
I Knew Too Late.
It sounds terrible, but it's aguide to help you survive and
thrive, and that's the subtitle,and that's my promise to the
(26:33):
readers is that it's not anegative.
It's a sad story because it'sthe lost, but John was no
tragedy.
He was the most incrediblesuccess you ever saw, and so his
loss was huge.
But at the same time, there'sso much to teach from something
where there's no confoundingother issues.
He wasn't doing drugs.
(26:54):
He wasn't doing anything wrong,he was just powering out drugs.
He wasn't doing anything wrong,he was just powering out.
And so then you have to look atwhat really was behind all the
fact that he opted out.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Are there signs that other parents can look for?
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Oh for sure.
There are so many signs andit's so important to actually
ask the child.
So are you thinking of killingyourself?
Because they won't be surprisedand at worst they're going to
say you're out of your mind, mom.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Yeah, I think some people think if they ask that
question, they're bringing it upand putting it in their mind.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Oh, they've already got it, believe me, and they're
seeing their friends and peersand everything, and believe me,
that's 100% alive and available,all throughout their shot
through their world.
And so you have to ask, becausethey'll tell you.
But even if they don't tell you, their body language will give
them away.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Yeah, my daughter's doctor asked her at every
appointment if she's thinkingabout that, and I used to be
shocked in the beginning, butnow I'm grateful.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
No, you have to ask because they have to know you
care, and if you don't ask, theythink you don't care and that I
don't matter.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
What other signs?
If your son seems happy andseems to be progressing well,
like your son was, what othersigns can people look for?
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Well, drugs, of course, and alcohol, because
that flatlines your potentialand they're using to flatline
something that's hard, but thenthey don't grow, wow yeah, then
you're flatlining your potential.
So that's a living suicidewhere you're still alive, but
(28:38):
you've basically flatlinedeverything that you could have
been.
Other things that you've got tolook out for is talking about
being a burden or isolating, notseeing any excitement about
life.
You know, sort of just existingwithout getting interested in
anything.
But also, if your loved childor yourself or anyone has been
(29:02):
in a deep depression andsuddenly seem really happy,
don't think they're okay, that'susually the biggest sign that
they're ready to kill themselvesbecause they've made a decision
and that gives them thisrelease that I know what I'm
going to do now and that'simminent danger.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
And a lot of people miss that.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
A lot of people miss that.
They think, oh, finally she'sokay.
No, no, no, no.
That's a serious danger signthat a lot of people miss.
Don't miss it.
And so there's that.
There's sleeping too much, toolittle, avoiding friendships,
doing, stopping things that theyused to enjoy.
All these things are big redflags and that's when you ask,
(29:45):
you go in and say what's goingon.
After John died, I had a renterin the same room, john occupied
, and this boy.
Basically, I don't know how Igot so lucky, but he was very
different than John, but he wasas brilliant as John, which is
saying a lot.
And this boy went through a lotof different permutations and
(30:08):
we ended up living together atotal of eight years and we kind
of became family.
But because he was gay, hebecame suicidal a number of
times and I caught him everysingle time.
Oh, thank God I did and I saidoh no, you don't Right.
And I kept saying you knowyou're a rare and very special
(30:30):
person and it's going to take avery rare and special person to
be able to match you and be yoursignificant other.
But I said if you're here,they're there too and you just
have to hold on and hang on andtrust the process and, believe
me, you know that will happenand I am so glad to report he
found that person.
(30:51):
Oh, that's great.
They're the happiest couple youever saw and they love each
other deeply.
And they made me the ringbearer in the West.
Oh, that gave me chills.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
That's so beautiful, very cool.
So what would you say tosomeone who just recently lost
their child and feels like theworld has ended?
What is your advice for?
Speaker 1 (31:15):
them, I'd say you're right, the world has ended, but
this doesn't mean it's over.
It's the beginning of a newlife, and you save your life now
, because their life will be inincredible jeopardy, and so you
have to save your life.
I had to remodel my whole house, because all I saw was a
mausoleum full of his death.
(31:36):
All I saw was a mausoleum fullof his death, and so everything,
everything, every wall, everyfloor, every window I had to
change what I saw, because itwas just killing me.
It was literally killing me,and so I had to turn this home
into a celebration of his lifeinstead of mausoleum of his
death, and I had to do the workmyself, and so I became a tile
(31:59):
setter, and I'm a very good tilesetter now.
Now, I bet that was therapeuticworking with your hands and just
really using my mind to thinkthis is going to be John's
resurrection.
In a way, this is going to showthat this home is full of light
, it's full of space, it'sbeautiful and it's the
celebration of John's life, andso that was part of it.
(32:22):
I had to become apsychotherapist and write a book
about him that would helpothers.
You have to do something aboutwhat happened.
You can't just let it fester.
It'll take you out.
You've basically turned into adifferent person and you're on a
completely different path thanyou've ever been, and it's going
(32:43):
to be worth the living.
But you have to keep on it andfind out what the what doors
open for you and what needs tohappen will show up.
But don't ever think that childis gone.
They're as gone as you allowthem to be is gone.
They're as gone as you allowthem to be.
If you stay connected, if youstay open, you'll see the many
(33:09):
ways they show up.
And one thing that happened forme that really forced me to
realize that there was more,that this wasn't the end, is I
had a pair of earrings that Ilove very much, that I got in
Big Sur and they're very specialto me.
And after John died, myboyfriend at the time took me to
Maui.
He said you've just got to getaway from this.
And you know, blah, blah, blah.
And so on Mother's Day in Maui,he took me on this long ride to
(33:34):
Hana, which is a very difficultride.
It's a long and hot and dustyride but it's absolutely this
beautiful rainforest.
You go to this beautifulrainforest and it was a sacred
area of the gods, the Hawaiiangods, and we were hiking up this
incredible rainforest and therewere seven sacred pools and we
(33:58):
swam in one and we hiked up tothe great waterfall and I was
just miserable the entire timethinking about my son and how,
the how.
This was the worst mother's dayin my life.
And halfway back I noticed oneof my earrings was gone and I
really loved that earring and Iwas just like I can't handle,
(34:19):
you know, any more loss.
I can't handle.
Here's something that meanssomething to me too.
And now it's gone and myboyfriend was like, oh, it's a
gift to the Maui gods and I waslike typical man doesn't get it.
And anyway, we got back and Igot back to Santa Barbara, where
I live here, and I put the ringand the other earring in my
(34:40):
jewelry box.
And six months later we wentback to Maui and this time we
brought my only other son and mysurrogate son, mike the guy I
just told you about that ismarried now and we took them on
that hike because it's abeautiful hike.
And we got there and I was likemy earring is here somewhere,
(35:00):
and this was a three hour hikeand we were hiking and like it
probably fell off on the trailand it's rained into some rocks
and it's covered with leaves andI'll never see it again.
Or else it fell off in the pooland we swam and it's over all
the waterfalls and it's in theocean.
And I couldn't stop thinkingabout that earring and I I don't
(35:22):
know exactly when, but about anhour or two into the hike, I
was stepping over a rock withcrevice, leaves and a hook, I
picked up my earring.
That is amazing.
I lost the earring on theMother's Day, after losing John,
and here I am six months laterfinding an earring in a tropical
(35:43):
rainforest.
Right, I can't find that's asign.
I can't even find an earring inmy bedroom.
If I lose it here, I am going.
You're no.
And my boyfriend was behind me.
He saw it.
I lifted it up and he justyelled that's impossible.
He just yelled, that'simpossible.
(36:03):
And I just sat there looking atit going.
What does this mean?
And all I could think of is Idon't think the Maui gods gave
it back to me.
I thought it was John and Ithought he was.
There's hope.
Yeah, there's always hope,there's hope.
And that's what actuallystarted the book.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
That's great.
Now you do other things besidesbeing an author.
Don't you belong to anorganization?
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Well, I've started a couple of nonprofits and I also
have taught for 21 years now.
By a teacher invitation I gointo schools and teach what I
think all kids really and Johnwould have definitely benefited
from is I teach social,emotional skills building.
(36:49):
It's unbelievable.
You walk in and I tell you, amy, I just see a sea of dead,
bored eyes and you just sitthere and go.
If this is what education isdoing to our kids, no wonder
they're suicidal.
I mean, it's really ugly.
But eight weeks later youcannot believe the light in
(37:11):
those eyes.
You can't believe all the handsthat keep raising.
Now learn how to use to findthe skills within them to make a
difference, to get people tothink you matter, to realize you
matter, your story matters, youmatter.
(37:31):
And now you know how to besuccessful and that just gives
them the glue that really helpsthem go out into the world and
be able to succeed.
And they know they can.
It's incredible, it's the mostamazing thing.
And they teach themselves and Ijust support every single one
and tell them see, what he did,wasn't that incredible?
And then the one thing youcould improve on is blah, blah,
(37:54):
but you know, fantastic job.
And then those kids realizethey're safe, they can.
They can take the risks thatthey need to take and they can
benefit from it, and everybodydoes.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Well, I think that not only are you teaching them
lifelong skills that will helpthem forever, I think it's also
probably an event that theydon't ever forget.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Oh no, I mean, I've had people pat me on the back
when I'm out and about andthey'll turn and somebody will
say I bet you don't remember meand I'll say hi, stacey.
And she said I just wanted youto know.
Of all those classes I evertook in school, yours was by far
the best and I love that.
(38:37):
Yeah, you know that'll keep megoing forever and you know you
can see it.
You can see the change in thestudents.
They are alive, they areexcited.
They see that there's hope,they realize they can do this
and that's not what they'regetting in school.
That's incredible.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
Is there a name to that program that you've?
Speaker 1 (38:57):
got yeah, we call it Communication and Leadership
Skills.
I'm thinking that needs to betaught all over the world.
In every single class.
It should be taught inelementary school and then at a
different level in high schooland then at a different level in
college.
It would help kids know thatthey have the resources within
them to succeed and that nothingmatters.
(39:18):
But they just keep going andnothing can stop them Nothing.
And so it is.
And they stopped teaching thesekinds of things back in the
industrial age because theywanted to concentrate on
industrial STEM and all theother stuff.
But that's the glue that keepspeople alive and healthy and
(39:40):
vibrant and together and bonded,and without it, we're seeing
the results of it now.
Yeah, we are sadly.
Yeah, we are, and so this hasto be rebooted.
And it's easy and it's fun.
And I had one class that was anat-risk class, one of my very
(40:02):
first classes I ever taught, andwhen I walked in, the teacher
told me he said these kids willbe lucky to get a job at
McDonald's.
And I was like what a horribleteacher to have that kind of a
mindset with these kids.
What do you expect those kidsto get?
And again I started the kidsjust went on fire.
The kids just went on fire andthey were.
(40:22):
It was a virtual enterpriseclass where they all had to
create a fake kind of enterpriseand then be the CEO or the CFO
and they had all these dutiesand all that sort of thing.
And then they had to go competeagainst 103 schools nationwide
and these were at-risk kids thathad very low chance of success
(40:43):
and they swept five of the sevenawards.
And these were at-risk kidsthat had very low chance of
success and they swept five ofthe seven awards.
Oh my God, this is unbelievable.
Yeah, the teacher.
On their return he told me hesaid this is impossible.
And I said this isn'timpossible.
This is a failure of youreducational system.
If I can do this in eight weeks, you have no excuse.
(41:07):
None, exactly, oh exactly.
I'm so mad.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
So mad.
Well, I am so glad you are outthere doing this work.
You've already given us so much, so many good things to hold on
to, but can you tell me, isthere anything that you just
want to leave us with?
Speaker 1 (41:22):
today.
I just want to say nobody comeson Earth for nothing.
Every one of us is the centerof a whole galaxy of others and
(41:48):
that galaxy is only therebecause of you being where you
are as you are, and the morestable you are and the more
clear you are, the more stableand clear and consistent and
rational and progressive thegalaxy and if what I found this
on john's memorial I saw a wholegalaxy splinter off never be
the same again.
The only thing holding thatwhole galaxy together was John.
And that's when I knew everysingle one of us is the same
(42:09):
exact thing.
And I don't think most realizehow important you are, how
critical you are, and that themore you can find a way to find
your own path and trust theprocess and not take anything
personally it's just a lessonand trust the process and not
take anything personally.
It's just a lesson.
It isn't about you, it's aboutthe lesson.
Learn the lesson, and theharder the lesson, the more you
(42:30):
get to learn.
That's it.
That's it and so survive it,and it will equip you in ways
that nothing else could andnothing is worth killing
yourself for.
But a lot of people walk aroundand they think there's nothing
I can do.
Yes, that thought is what killspeople because you're stranding
them.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
So people that do want to do something and maybe
want to get in touch with youand be part of your program, is
that possible?
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Oh my gosh.
Yes, my website issallyaraymondcom.
You can certainly contact methere.
I'm also.
My email is s in Sam B, as inboy, s-a-l-s-n-s-l-e at coxnet,
and I'm completely available.
I am 82 years old this monthand I am not quitting.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
Good for you, happy birthday coming up.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
I'm not sure this is a happy birthday, but I do feel
I'm on a mission and I believeGod is giving me some grace to
do this, and I believe it'sabsolutely required right now.
And I feel, in a way, john hasgiven me not only the gift of
his life and his insight andinspiration, but he's also
(43:43):
forced me to be something.
I would never have been anyother way, and he was always
like that.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Yeah, he kind of gave you your purpose.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
He really did and he sacrificed himself.
But he is not gone.
Believe me, he is not gone.
He still is alive to me, asever.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
And I am sure, and I agree.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
Yes, yeah, and so I feel like I'm still the luckiest
mom and his brother is here andhis brother is pretty awesome
too, so oh, great, great.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
anyway, I really appreciate you coming on today
and talking with all of us.
I think this is going to makesuch a huge difference in so
many people's lives.
That's my hope.
Yeah, well, I hope.
One last thing when can we getyour?
Speaker 1 (44:27):
book oh, it's on Amazon the Sun I Knew Too Late a
guide to help you survive andthrive, and I guarantee you it's
not a downer, but it is full ofvery, very, very important
information you can absolutelyuse.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
Well, I'm going to grab it.
It sounds wonderful.
So thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
You're welcome, Amy.
It's been a delight to talk toyou.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
Thank you for sticking with me through this
heavy topic.
Remember you're not alone inthis.
Whether you're struggling orjust trying to support someone
who is, there's always help andthere's always hope.
If you or someone you know ishaving thoughts of suicide,
please reach out, call or text988 to connect with a trained
(45:14):
crisis counselor 24-7.
Or if you're outside the US,look for your local helpline or
chat service.
We need each other to getthrough this together and don't
forget you matter.
You are worth every ounce ofeffort it takes to keep fighting
.
You have to take care ofyourselves and keep advancing
(45:36):
lawyers.
Thank you.
John was the biggest wake-up call I could ever, ever,
ever imagine, and he put me ona path I would never be on any
other way.
Suicide is such a big deal.
It's drawing so many, so manypeople not just the person who
dies, but a whole galaxy ofpeople around them.
That will never be the sameagain.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Welcome to Advancing with Amy, mental health warrior
and neuro-spicy mama.
In today's deeply movingepisode, we sit down with Sally
Raymond.
She's a mother, apsychotherapist and a fierce
advocate whose world was foreverchanged by the loss of her
brilliant son, john to suicide.
(00:45):
Through heartbreak andperseverance, sally has turned
unimaginable pain into apowerful mission to help parents
and communities recognize thesubtle signs of struggle, foster
resilience and cultivate hopeat every stage of life.
Join us as we listen to Sally'shonest and courageous story a
(01:09):
journey from devastation toadvocacy, as she shares the
hard-won lessons she wishedshe'd known sooner.
This isn't just a story of loss.
It's a testament to the healingpower of connection, the
importance of trust and theunwavering love between a mother
and her child.
If you or someone you love hasever faced mental health
(01:31):
challenges, this episode offersunderstanding, comfort and
inspiration to keep movingforward.
Let's begin this conversationwith Sally, whose vulnerability
and determination remind us thatevery person's life is at the
center of a galaxy and that hope, even after great loss, can be
(01:52):
found and shared.
Sally, thank you for being here.
Can you take us back to themoment on your journey when this
mission began for you, themoment that changed everything
for you as a mom?
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Oh, thank you very much, amy.
I certainly can.
I was just a normal mom raisingtwo little boys as a single
parent, and my eldest was thebrightest little light I've ever
seen in my life.
He was reading at two, he wasgiving me 45-minute debates on
why he didn't need to make hisbed at six and he was winning.
(02:28):
And I knew I had to go back toschool to keep up with his
little upstart and stay the mom,you know, because he had to
still listen to me and obey meand he wasn't going to if he
didn't have any, if I didn'thave any credibility.
And so because of him, I had toget straight A's, because he
(02:48):
never got a B and I had to endup graduating with highest
honors when I was a C student inhigh school and perfectly happy
about it.
So he really was my Pygmalion,wow.
And the moment that changed mylife as I was just becoming a
licensed psychotherapist.
He had graduated from CarnegieMellon at 21 with his bachelor's
(03:10):
and master's, and I was theproudest, happiest and most
successful mom in the world.
And a year and a half later hekilled himself, and none of my
stories about my son could haveended that way.
My stories about my son couldhave ended that way.
I just saw a superstarrocketing to the stars and I did
not see how he could havepossibly how it could have ended
(03:32):
like that, and I was justbecoming a psychotherapist.
I just had the training andtools most moms never have and I
and I was catapulted.
That moment catapulted me outon a mission to find out what I
missed, and did you ever come upwith that?
(03:54):
I came up with a hundred stories, amy, and all of them were
things I either didn't know ordidn't understand before.
But with my new training Icould look back and now see what
fit his bottom line, whichwould have been and then I
killed myself.
Wow, and it started at birth.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
It started at birth.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Started at birth.
There were so many stories andat every age there was a story
that really took him from growthand excitement to
demoralization.
And I didn't see it happening.
As most parents, we're here tolead to life, lead to hope,
(04:36):
believe in our children, look atthe positive and we miss the
negative.
And at birth I was a brand newmom.
I'd never had a kid before, Iwasn't used to babies and he was
crying.
All the negative.
And at birth I was a brand newmom.
I'd never had a kid before, Iwasn't used to babies and he was
crying all the time and I wasbeside myself trying to take
care of him and you know, upmaybe 30 times a night and I was
(04:57):
calling my pediatrician, my newpediatrician, who was an
elderly man I picked because Ithought he was so seasoned.
I didn't think that maybe hewas becoming senile and anyway
he kept saying, oh, it's justcolic, and he'd give me stuff
for colic and it didn't help him.
But he said it lasts threemonths and then it'll be over
(05:19):
and everything will be fine.
But my baby was crying andcrying and crying and I couldn't
stop him and I couldn't soothehim and I tried my best and it
was just on and on and on and atthree months he was still
crying and I called that doctorback up and I said you said it'd
be over, and he's still cryingas hard as ever.
(05:41):
And he said well, maybe it'sthe four-month colic or the
five-month, and I just lost it.
I just hung up on him and Icalled my friends in a panic and
they steered me to anotherpediatrician who I called
immediately and he said bringhim in.
And I brought my baby boy in andhe took his clothes off and he
(06:02):
was examining him and he said oh, feel right here.
He just felt right here, rightat the shoulder, and he said
feel that lump right there.
He broke his collarbone inbirth, oh my gosh.
And he said it's starting toheal now, but that's what's been
hurting him.
So whenever he moved or Ipicked him up which I did all
(06:23):
the time trying to soothe him Iwas hurting him.
But you had no idea.
No, but it didn't matter,because the damage was, from
that point on, whenever I couldsee it now I couldn't see it
before, but whenever I go topick him up, his eyes would be
looking wary and then you knowhe'd try to pull back away from
(06:47):
you.
And that continued, amy, almostall of his life.
He would shy away from touch,he would be like no, because he
learned from the very beginningof his life that touch somebody
touching him, holding him,trying to love him was going to
hurt him.
How heartbreaking.
(07:07):
It was.
It was.
I was absolutely beside myselfand I didn't know what to say to
him.
Of course he was a little tinyand when he was about 10, I, I
think I, that's when I finallythought he was old enough and I
told him.
I said you know, the reason whyyou keep backing away and
shying away from touch isbecause and I told him what
(07:29):
happened and all he said waswell, I'm glad I know where it
came from, but what do I doabout it?
And at that time I was just amom and I just said you know,
john, I don't know, but I'lltell you one thing it not who
you are, it's not.
It's not formal, it's not.
It's not who you are, it's whathappened to you.
(07:49):
It's something that happened toyou so early that you have this
automatic reflex.
But it's not.
It's not who you are, it isn't.
It isn't.
It was just something thathorrible that happened, that
never got caught and I didndidn't know any better and I
didn't understand it.
No, and that's as much as Icould do, but that's the.
(08:11):
Actually, I now know as apsychologist that if you don't
have, if you have cannot trustat the beginning of your life,
trust is the biggest issue's,the first issue out of the womb,
and if you can't trust which hecouldn't, he couldn't trust me.
I was going to hurt him.
That has a high associationwith suicide later on.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yeah, and you don't know how important it is to bond
with your baby and be there forhim and really, you know, take
care.
I should have had a secondopinion right away.
I should have done it, but Itrusted the first doctor and I
didn't know any better.
But now I do and I'd be like,oh, I should have gotten a
second opinion right away.
(08:56):
It would have changedeverything.
But as it was, this is whathappened.
So that was the very firstinsult that he really fielded.
It was none of his fault and itwas totally my fault because I
didn't do what I could have done.
And that was a horrible,horrible, horrible lacuna on my
(09:18):
part and I didn't know howimportant trust was.
If I'd known that trust was thebiggest thing and if I saw him
crying all the time, I'd besaying I've got to, I've got to
get help, I've got it, I've gotto do something about this,
because otherwise I'll never.
I'll never be able to live withmyself if I don't do my best.
But at the time I believe Ijust trusted my doctor and he he
(09:41):
just was pushing it off to thiscolic thing that it was never
that.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Well, you were doing the best that you knew, at that
time, to do.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
It doesn't help the situation Right.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
It almost goes to say that people should be.
I think people should getparenting training in high
school, but I never thoughtabout getting trained so that
your child doesn't hurtthemselves later in life.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Yeah, I mean, you don't know the long-term effects
of something.
That's such an initialexperience.
It's the first experience outof the womb and so that's huge,
huge downstream effects.
And at every new age there's adifferent issue that we are
fielding, because it's a growthissue.
It's helping equip us and if wedon't have it resolved in a
(10:32):
positive way then it's going toundermine the stage next and the
next and the next.
I didn't know any of that andthat's what my book is.
It talks about the differentissues at every stage.
The first issue is trust.
The second issue is to be ableto walk around, and to move
(10:52):
around and be autonomous.
And you're just beginning towalk and if you're not allowed
to do that, it's going toabsolutely make you feel what
you interject is you're no good.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
You're no good and there's shame and guilt, and I
know you've taken a lot of timeto research this and to figure
out what caused this, and you'veobviously got an idea.
How do you live with that?
I mean, is there some guiltthere or?
Speaker 1 (11:24):
You know, I just had to find out every single thing I
could, and I didn't care whatit did, you know what it meant
to me or anything.
I just had to find out everysingle thing I possibly could,
and I couldn't live with myselfif I didn't.
And I had to know what hisexperience was.
And I realized I have made alot of innocent mistakes I
(11:46):
didn't mean to make.
I mean, I didn't know they weremistakes at the time.
But I sure know that otherparents are making exactly the
same mistakes now that I did,and they're doing the same to
their children as they did toJohn.
And because I couldn't saveJohn's life which I had no idea
that I thought he was doinggreat and I got the call.
(12:08):
You can't survive, and I didn'tsurvive.
I died as a mom.
I have no idea who that personwas anymore.
That person died with John.
I didn't know who I was, Ididn't know his story, I didn't
know my story.
I didn't know anything anymore,and so I was.
I didn't know his story, Ididn't know my story, I didn't
know anything anymore, and so Idied.
And because I was now atherapist, all I could do was
(12:31):
try to find out where I wentwrong and then help save other
people, and I feel like.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
I feel like you're grieving not only him, but who
you were.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Oh, yeah, I mean.
But at the same time I thinkthat girl she deserved to die
because she blew it, and I feellike I have no respect for that
girl.
I have no interest in knowinganything about her anymore.
She's gone, she's gone, she'sabsolutely gone in my life.
But I do go to the grave twice ayear to talk to him and he
(13:06):
really is still here as far asI'm concerned.
I know he's still here and he'shelping me make the most out of
his life in a way that wouldhelp other people, and that's
what I feel like our job is tomake his life a teaching, a
sacrificial teaching for therest of us, so that we don't
(13:27):
make the same mistakes and welearn.
And we do the opposite.
We help children throughouttheir lives know how to keep
life worth living.
And that's really reallyimportant today, because right
now we're looking at thedissolution of our society and a
whole lot of other things andwe've lost the glue that kept
(13:47):
society together and cohesiveand thriving.
And that is what I am about andthat's what I am trying to.
I'm working to try and correctand teach, because if we don't,
we're lost.
Oh, I agree.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Do you feel like you're a much stronger person
now than because of all?
Speaker 1 (14:08):
this.
I've always been a kind of abuoyant person.
I was very lucky to have themom I had.
She was an Italian mom and youdidn't mess with my mom, but she
really gave me some incrediblywonderful parenting skills by
what she did with me and I sawhow well it worked and I feel
(14:32):
very blessed in that way and Iuse the same tools that she used
on me, on my kids, and theywere the straightest arrows you
ever saw.
That's funny and I felt very,very blessed, and I really do,
because I don't know what it isabout me, but I do have a very
(14:54):
buoyant spirit and with John hewas such a success in his life I
mean, he was the mostsuccessful young man I have ever
seen in my life.
He was the most successfulyoung man I have ever seen in my
life.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
And to think, he was even my son is just stunning,
and to think about where hecould have gone and what he
could have done.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Well, he had his bachelor's and master's in
theoretical math at 21.
Wow, he had eclipsed threeyears of regular school and he
was the only survivor of hiscohort at Carnegie Mellon.
There were 33 handpicked,highly select, worldwide
(15:33):
students that he was a cohort ofat the beginning of the program
and he was the only one left.
32 crashed and burned and Idon't know if any of those
committed suicide, but they verywell could have.
And John had tremendoussurvivor guilt because he was
(15:53):
the only success and all theothers that would have been his
colleagues for the rest of theirlives, and his friends and
everything else were gone and itwas tragic.
And to think that CarnegieMellon or any of these
universities that are eliteuniversities would actually
(16:13):
create a program that is so hardthat 32 of 33 would crash and
burn is heinous.
That is F to the institutionfor creating an impossible
course of study.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
I agree it says something about the course of
study and less about the student.
Oh my, gosh.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
I mean, the Fs are the institution that is on the
institution to create somethingthat nobody can survive except
one of 33.
And my son had written usbefore his graduation and he
said I am now the only one lefton track for this mission degree
program.
And he said, if I had knownwhen I was 3.03% of the entering
(17:00):
class that I would be the 100%of the graduating class, I would
never have accepted Well, whowould, with those statistics?
And yet that's what theycreated.
And then all the money thatwent into those 32 kids, that
their parents, and all the hopesand dreams and possibilities
(17:21):
that were shattered for nothing.
And then the school was free todo that again next year and
next year and next year.
It's just.
It's impossible to realize whattheir part in creating John's
success and everyone else'sfailure really have.
But it's horrible.
(17:42):
It's a gulag.
They put him in a gulag andthat you think you trust.
You know I trusted theuniversity.
This is going to be great.
John is going to do so good andthen he's going to have
colleagues.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
He's going to have all these people and no, nothing
, no, it was set up against allthe students Right, and that has
to be so isolating and you haveto feel so alone at that point.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Yeah, absolutely Isolate and furious.
He wrote that he would nevergive Carnegie Mellon a dime in
support.
So he was thinking of living.
But he was so furious becausehe'd watched all of his
wonderful, wonderful cohort dropout one by one, by one, by one,
by one by one, and that wasjust impossible.
So there was a lot.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Yeah.
What do you think he would sayabout what you're doing now?
Speaker 1 (18:38):
I think he would say I have a lot more to do.
John was a tough cookie.
I mean, he always was the onewho questioned every single
thing you said, every singlething you did.
I mean it was so hard to be hismom because he asked such good
questions and I was trying mybest to answer them.
(18:59):
And one time he and his brotherwent to visit his dad and I
guess he was about 10 or 11 atthe time and his dad called me
up and he said we've got to sendJohn to military school.
And I went, what?
I was like what do you mean?
And he said we have to send himto military school.
I said I heard you.
But I said but why?
(19:24):
And he said because he'squestioning me.
And I'm like yeah, okay, butwhat is he doing wrong?
And he said didn't you hear me?
I told you he's questioned andI was like I understand, but
what is he doing wrong?
And my ex was just gettingmadder and saying you are an
idiot, you are the blah, blah,blah.
And I finally said look, is hedoing anything illegal?
(19:46):
No, is he doing poorly inschool?
No, is he not getting alongwith people?
No, and why would you put aperfectly good kid in.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
I understand the feeling, though I have a
daughter who is highlyintelligent.
She's got autism, but she'svery intelligent and I think
she's been more intelligent thanI have been since she was very
young.
She's 15 now and she likes todebate me to the nth degree, so
I totally get it.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Yes, and my ex is.
Obviously he's a patriarchalkind of mindset, and you don't
question the patriarch.
Well, I'm not like that.
I mean, my parents wereegalitarian and so we're all
equals, and so if he had beenunder his dad's purview he
wouldn't have been able to askthose questions or he would have
been put away, and that wouldhave gone right away.
(20:40):
I mean, john would have killedhimself right then for sure.
Well, yeah, because he couldn'tbe himself Exactly.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
So tell me, with your training and your knowledge now
, do you think that helped youheal in any way or be more
resilient?
Speaker 1 (20:55):
I feel that what I'm doing is what I must do to right
the wrongs and take the wrongsfrom a negative to a positive,
to give to the others what Icouldn't give my son because I
didn't know, and now that he hasmade me learn things the
hardest way possible, that Iwould never have learned any
(21:17):
other way than if he had livedand died.
And that is what I think is hisgift.
And it's my job to turn thatgift into the greatest gift the
world could ever have, becauseJohn really really was a person
that could have saved the world.
He really had all that.
(21:39):
You couldn't believe what hehad turned into by the time he
graduated.
He was the most magnificentyoung man I have ever seen in my
life and I really do believe hecould have saved the world, and
other people have said the samething.
So it's not just me and he wasjust the most amazing person
(22:00):
ever I mean ever and I thinkthat he was a sacrifice for the
greater good and I'm making surehe is.
I am not going to.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
It's incredible that you're doing that.
What would you say to a newparent nowadays that thinks
everything's fine and isn'tworried at all?
Speaker 1 (22:19):
I'd say, read my book and take it to heart, and read
it over and over and take itwith you at every stage of life,
because it'll help you keeplife worth the living for your
child and yourself.
It will also heal you.
It will help you heal too,because these things are all.
Every single person goesthrough the same stages of life
(22:40):
and they have the same needsevery single stage.
And if you know that, you knowhow to apply it to yourself, you
know how to apply it to yourchildren or your parents or your
friends or anything at all, andit works.
And so that's something wenever knew is what was going
inside, inside the black box ofthe person, about what matters,
what doesn't matter, what'scritical, what isn't critical.
(23:02):
This tells you that, and it wasthe work of Eric Erickson.
He was a psychosocial theorist,he was a contemporary of Freud
and yet he didn't believe inwhat Freud was saying.
But he said it's an interactionbetween the environment and the
internal personality of thechild and that helps us grow.
(23:23):
And he did a tremendousanalysis.
And when I first read Erickson'swork, my son was in Carnegie
Mellon and he was doing greatand I kept thinking why didn't I
know about this?
Why am I reading it now, when Ineeded it years and years ago
(23:43):
and I was like gosh.
This would have been absolutelycritical information to know.
And it's simple, it's not hard,anyone can get it, and yet it's
not been ever given to thepublic.
So with my book I used John'sstories as the emotional content
(24:05):
to marry with the informationthat Eric Erickson says, so as
you can see how the stair stepswork throughout life and at
every stage of life, john hitsomething that was really
profound, that had a tremendouseffect on that particular issue
at the time.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Right and just compounded.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
It compounded and compounded.
So as I saw him rising to thestars, I didn't see that he was
doing it as a kind of a traumaresponse, that it was pushing
him to do something soimpossible that nobody else
could do it.
But it was actually a symptomof the traumas.
(24:41):
That makes sense.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Yeah, yeah, and you wouldn't have known at the time.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Oh, I just saw the outside of the rocket ship going
to the stars and I was likethis kid is unbelievable, but I
didn't see what was powering itall.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
When you wrote the book.
Do you feel like that was atherapeutic thing or do you feel
like it opened up old wounds?
Speaker 1 (25:05):
I mean, after every story I wrote I would have to
spend months just grieving, justcompletely lost.
I couldn't bear to go back, Icouldn't bear to do anything.
It would take me months aftereach one to pull myself together
, to start to do more researchand see the next thing that I
(25:26):
needed to know.
It took years it took a totalof 28 years to write and I
didn't give myself time off.
But I wrote many, manydifferent edits and I had to
have many angels showed up tohelp me do it.
They really did.
I got the most incredible editorand whether I was in the
hospital, I told never, I'dnever walk again or whatever.
(25:50):
She was like we're finishingthis book.
That's great, right, we foughtover every word and she always
won.
Sounds like a labor of love.
It was a labor of love and thetwo of us worked together and I
have so much love and respectfor her because she really
helped me put this together in away that would help other
(26:11):
people the best way possible.
But now I'm working on a lot ofother things, because there's
just so much for people to knowthese days.
What's the name of your book?
Oh, it's called the Son.
I Knew Too Late.
It sounds terrible, but it's aguide to help you survive and
thrive, and that's the subtitle,and that's my promise to the
(26:33):
readers is that it's not anegative.
It's a sad story because it'sthe lost, but John was no
tragedy.
He was the most incrediblesuccess you ever saw, and so his
loss was huge.
But at the same time, there'sso much to teach from something
where there's no confoundingother issues.
He wasn't doing drugs.
(26:54):
He wasn't doing anything wrong,he was just powering out drugs.
He wasn't doing anything wrong,he was just powering out.
And so then you have to look atwhat really was behind all the
fact that he opted out.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Are there signs that other parents can look for?
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Oh for sure.
There are so many signs andit's so important to actually
ask the child.
So are you thinking of killingyourself?
Because they won't be surprisedand at worst they're going to
say you're out of your mind, mom.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Yeah, I think some people think if they ask that
question, they're bringing it upand putting it in their mind.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Oh, they've already got it, believe me, and they're
seeing their friends and peersand everything, and believe me,
that's 100% alive and available,all throughout their shot
through their world.
And so you have to ask, becausethey'll tell you.
But even if they don't tell you, their body language will give
them away.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Yeah, my daughter's doctor asked her at every
appointment if she's thinkingabout that, and I used to be
shocked in the beginning, butnow I'm grateful.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
No, you have to ask because they have to know you
care, and if you don't ask, theythink you don't care and that I
don't matter.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
What other signs?
If your son seems happy andseems to be progressing well,
like your son was, what othersigns can people look for?
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Well, drugs, of course, and alcohol, because
that flatlines your potentialand they're using to flatline
something that's hard, but thenthey don't grow, wow yeah, then
you're flatlining your potential.
So that's a living suicidewhere you're still alive, but
(28:38):
you've basically flatlinedeverything that you could have
been.
Other things that you've got tolook out for is talking about
being a burden or isolating, notseeing any excitement about
life.
You know, sort of just existingwithout getting interested in
anything.
But also, if your loved childor yourself or anyone has been
(29:02):
in a deep depression andsuddenly seem really happy,
don't think they're okay, that'susually the biggest sign that
they're ready to kill themselvesbecause they've made a decision
and that gives them thisrelease that I know what I'm
going to do now and that'simminent danger.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
And a lot of people miss that.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
A lot of people miss that.
They think, oh, finally she'sokay.
No, no, no, no.
That's a serious danger signthat a lot of people miss.
Don't miss it.
And so there's that.
There's sleeping too much, toolittle, avoiding friendships,
doing, stopping things that theyused to enjoy.
All these things are big redflags and that's when you ask,
(29:45):
you go in and say what's goingon.
After John died, I had a renterin the same room, john occupied
, and this boy.
Basically, I don't know how Igot so lucky, but he was very
different than John, but he wasas brilliant as John, which is
saying a lot.
And this boy went through a lotof different permutations and
(30:08):
we ended up living together atotal of eight years and we kind
of became family.
But because he was gay, hebecame suicidal a number of
times and I caught him everysingle time.
Oh, thank God I did and I saidoh no, you don't Right.
And I kept saying you knowyou're a rare and very special
(30:30):
person and it's going to take avery rare and special person to
be able to match you and be yoursignificant other.
But I said if you're here,they're there too and you just
have to hold on and hang on andtrust the process and, believe
me, you know that will happenand I am so glad to report he
found that person.
(30:51):
Oh, that's great.
They're the happiest couple youever saw and they love each
other deeply.
And they made me the ringbearer in the West.
Oh, that gave me chills.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
That's so beautiful, very cool.
So what would you say tosomeone who just recently lost
their child and feels like theworld has ended?
What is your advice for?
Speaker 1 (31:15):
them, I'd say you're right, the world has ended, but
this doesn't mean it's over.
It's the beginning of a newlife, and you save your life now
, because their life will be inincredible jeopardy, and so you
have to save your life.
I had to remodel my whole house, because all I saw was a
mausoleum full of his death.
(31:36):
All I saw was a mausoleum fullof his death, and so everything,
everything, every wall, everyfloor, every window I had to
change what I saw, because itwas just killing me.
It was literally killing me,and so I had to turn this home
into a celebration of his lifeinstead of mausoleum of his
death, and I had to do the workmyself, and so I became a tile
(31:59):
setter, and I'm a very good tilesetter now.
Now, I bet that was therapeuticworking with your hands and just
really using my mind to thinkthis is going to be John's
resurrection.
In a way, this is going to showthat this home is full of light
, it's full of space, it'sbeautiful and it's the
celebration of John's life, andso that was part of it.
(32:22):
I had to become apsychotherapist and write a book
about him that would helpothers.
You have to do something aboutwhat happened.
You can't just let it fester.
It'll take you out.
You've basically turned into adifferent person and you're on a
completely different path thanyou've ever been, and it's going
(32:43):
to be worth the living.
But you have to keep on it andfind out what the what doors
open for you and what needs tohappen will show up.
But don't ever think that childis gone.
They're as gone as you allowthem to be is gone.
They're as gone as you allowthem to be.
If you stay connected, if youstay open, you'll see the many
(33:09):
ways they show up.
And one thing that happened forme that really forced me to
realize that there was more,that this wasn't the end, is I
had a pair of earrings that Ilove very much, that I got in
Big Sur and they're very specialto me.
And after John died, myboyfriend at the time took me to
Maui.
He said you've just got to getaway from this.
And you know, blah, blah, blah.
And so on Mother's Day in Maui,he took me on this long ride to
(33:34):
Hana, which is a very difficultride.
It's a long and hot and dustyride but it's absolutely this
beautiful rainforest.
You go to this beautifulrainforest and it was a sacred
area of the gods, the Hawaiiangods, and we were hiking up this
incredible rainforest and therewere seven sacred pools and we
(33:58):
swam in one and we hiked up tothe great waterfall and I was
just miserable the entire timethinking about my son and how,
the how.
This was the worst mother's dayin my life.
And halfway back I noticed oneof my earrings was gone and I
really loved that earring and Iwas just like I can't handle,
(34:19):
you know, any more loss.
I can't handle.
Here's something that meanssomething to me too.
And now it's gone and myboyfriend was like, oh, it's a
gift to the Maui gods and I waslike typical man doesn't get it.
And anyway, we got back and Igot back to Santa Barbara, where
I live here, and I put the ringand the other earring in my
(34:40):
jewelry box.
And six months later we wentback to Maui and this time we
brought my only other son and mysurrogate son, mike the guy I
just told you about that ismarried now and we took them on
that hike because it's abeautiful hike.
And we got there and I was likemy earring is here somewhere,
(35:00):
and this was a three hour hikeand we were hiking and like it
probably fell off on the trailand it's rained into some rocks
and it's covered with leaves andI'll never see it again.
Or else it fell off in the pooland we swam and it's over all
the waterfalls and it's in theocean.
And I couldn't stop thinkingabout that earring and I I don't
(35:22):
know exactly when, but about anhour or two into the hike, I
was stepping over a rock withcrevice, leaves and a hook, I
picked up my earring.
That is amazing.
I lost the earring on theMother's Day, after losing John,
and here I am six months laterfinding an earring in a tropical
(35:43):
rainforest.
Right, I can't find that's asign.
I can't even find an earring inmy bedroom.
If I lose it here, I am going.
You're no.
And my boyfriend was behind me.
He saw it.
I lifted it up and he justyelled that's impossible.
He just yelled, that'simpossible.
(36:03):
And I just sat there looking atit going.
What does this mean?
And all I could think of is Idon't think the Maui gods gave
it back to me.
I thought it was John and Ithought he was.
There's hope.
Yeah, there's always hope,there's hope.
And that's what actuallystarted the book.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
That's great.
Now you do other things besidesbeing an author.
Don't you belong to anorganization?
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Well, I've started a couple of nonprofits and I also
have taught for 21 years now.
By a teacher invitation I gointo schools and teach what I
think all kids really and Johnwould have definitely benefited
from is I teach social,emotional skills building.
(36:49):
It's unbelievable.
You walk in and I tell you, amy, I just see a sea of dead,
bored eyes and you just sitthere and go.
If this is what education isdoing to our kids, no wonder
they're suicidal.
I mean, it's really ugly.
But eight weeks later youcannot believe the light in
(37:11):
those eyes.
You can't believe all the handsthat keep raising.
Now learn how to use to findthe skills within them to make a
difference, to get people tothink you matter, to realize you
matter, your story matters, youmatter.
(37:31):
And now you know how to besuccessful and that just gives
them the glue that really helpsthem go out into the world and
be able to succeed.
And they know they can.
It's incredible, it's the mostamazing thing.
And they teach themselves and Ijust support every single one
and tell them see, what he did,wasn't that incredible?
And then the one thing youcould improve on is blah, blah,
(37:54):
but you know, fantastic job.
And then those kids realizethey're safe, they can.
They can take the risks thatthey need to take and they can
benefit from it, and everybodydoes.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Well, I think that not only are you teaching them
lifelong skills that will helpthem forever, I think it's also
probably an event that theydon't ever forget.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Oh no, I mean, I've had people pat me on the back
when I'm out and about andthey'll turn and somebody will
say I bet you don't remember meand I'll say hi, stacey.
And she said I just wanted youto know.
Of all those classes I evertook in school, yours was by far
the best and I love that.
(38:37):
Yeah, you know that'll keep megoing forever and you know you
can see it.
You can see the change in thestudents.
They are alive, they areexcited.
They see that there's hope,they realize they can do this
and that's not what they'regetting in school.
That's incredible.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
Is there a name to that program that you've?
Speaker 1 (38:57):
got yeah, we call it Communication and Leadership
Skills.
I'm thinking that needs to betaught all over the world.
In every single class.
It should be taught inelementary school and then at a
different level in high schooland then at a different level in
college.
It would help kids know thatthey have the resources within
them to succeed and that nothingmatters.
(39:18):
But they just keep going andnothing can stop them Nothing.
And so it is.
And they stopped teaching thesekinds of things back in the
industrial age because theywanted to concentrate on
industrial STEM and all theother stuff.
But that's the glue that keepspeople alive and healthy and
(39:40):
vibrant and together and bonded,and without it, we're seeing
the results of it now.
Yeah, we are sadly.
Yeah, we are, and so this hasto be rebooted.
And it's easy and it's fun.
And I had one class that was anat-risk class, one of my very
(40:02):
first classes I ever taught, andwhen I walked in, the teacher
told me he said these kids willbe lucky to get a job at
McDonald's.
And I was like what a horribleteacher to have that kind of a
mindset with these kids.
What do you expect those kidsto get?
And again I started the kidsjust went on fire.
The kids just went on fire andthey were.
(40:22):
It was a virtual enterpriseclass where they all had to
create a fake kind of enterpriseand then be the CEO or the CFO
and they had all these dutiesand all that sort of thing.
And then they had to go competeagainst 103 schools nationwide
and these were at-risk kids thathad very low chance of success
(40:43):
and they swept five of the sevenawards.
And these were at-risk kidsthat had very low chance of
success and they swept five ofthe seven awards.
Oh my God, this is unbelievable.
Yeah, the teacher.
On their return he told me hesaid this is impossible.
And I said this isn'timpossible.
This is a failure of youreducational system.
If I can do this in eight weeks, you have no excuse.
(41:07):
None, exactly, oh exactly.
I'm so mad.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
So mad.
Well, I am so glad you are outthere doing this work.
You've already given us so much, so many good things to hold on
to, but can you tell me, isthere anything that you just
want to leave us with?
Speaker 1 (41:22):
today.
I just want to say nobody comeson Earth for nothing.
Every one of us is the centerof a whole galaxy of others and
(41:48):
that galaxy is only therebecause of you being where you
are as you are, and the morestable you are and the more
clear you are, the more stableand clear and consistent and
rational and progressive thegalaxy and if what I found this
on john's memorial I saw a wholegalaxy splinter off never be
the same again.
The only thing holding thatwhole galaxy together was John.
And that's when I knew everysingle one of us is the same
(42:09):
exact thing.
And I don't think most realizehow important you are, how
critical you are, and that themore you can find a way to find
your own path and trust theprocess and not take anything
personally it's just a lessonand trust the process and not
take anything personally.
It's just a lesson.
It isn't about you, it's aboutthe lesson.
Learn the lesson, and theharder the lesson, the more you
(42:30):
get to learn.
That's it.
That's it and so survive it,and it will equip you in ways
that nothing else could andnothing is worth killing
yourself for.
But a lot of people walk aroundand they think there's nothing
I can do.
Yes, that thought is what killspeople because you're stranding
them.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
So people that do want to do something and maybe
want to get in touch with youand be part of your program, is
that possible?
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Oh my gosh.
Yes, my website issallyaraymondcom.
You can certainly contact methere.
I'm also.
My email is s in Sam B, as inboy, s-a-l-s-n-s-l-e at coxnet,
and I'm completely available.
I am 82 years old this monthand I am not quitting.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
Good for you, happy birthday coming up.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
I'm not sure this is a happy birthday, but I do feel
I'm on a mission and I believeGod is giving me some grace to
do this, and I believe it'sabsolutely required right now.
And I feel, in a way, john hasgiven me not only the gift of
his life and his insight andinspiration, but he's also
(43:43):
forced me to be something.
I would never have been anyother way, and he was always
like that.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Yeah, he kind of gave you your purpose.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
He really did and he sacrificed himself.
But he is not gone.
Believe me, he is not gone.
He still is alive to me, asever.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
And I am sure, and I agree.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
Yes, yeah, and so I feel like I'm still the luckiest
mom and his brother is here andhis brother is pretty awesome
too, so oh, great, great.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
anyway, I really appreciate you coming on today
and talking with all of us.
I think this is going to makesuch a huge difference in so
many people's lives.
That's my hope.
Yeah, well, I hope.
One last thing when can we getyour?
Speaker 1 (44:27):
book oh, it's on Amazon the Sun I Knew Too Late a
guide to help you survive andthrive, and I guarantee you it's
not a downer, but it is full ofvery, very, very important
information you can absolutelyuse.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
Well, I'm going to grab it.
It sounds wonderful.
So thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
You're welcome, Amy.
It's been a delight to talk toyou.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
Thank you for sticking with me through this
heavy topic.
Remember you're not alone inthis.
Whether you're struggling orjust trying to support someone
who is, there's always help andthere's always hope.
If you or someone you know ishaving thoughts of suicide,
please reach out, call or text988 to connect with a trained
(45:14):
crisis counselor 24-7.
Or if you're outside the US,look for your local helpline or
chat service.
We need each other to getthrough this together and don't
forget you matter.
You are worth every ounce ofeffort it takes to keep fighting
.
You have to take care ofyourselves and keep advancing
(45:36):
lawyers.
Thank you.
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