April 28, 2025 • 39 mins
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So I work with people that have what I call complex
grief, which is that they hadsome unresolved losses earlier
in their lives sometimes oftenin their childhood usually
around some abandonment issue itcould be emotional or physical
abandonment and so when theyhave a current loss and almost
(00:24):
always when we have grief it isabout disconnection, not losing
connections, and that's whatcauses the grief.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Okay, so you have a different take on how to heal
grief right.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
I have a system and I do work with four different
superpowers.
One is the body, so the body issuper important and I really
work with people in terms ofactually releasing the emotional
energy out of their body so itisn't stuck in their cells and
that's also working with theemotions but it is in the body,
(01:00):
but you have to use theemotional tools to get it out.
And then mindset is really hugeand I help my clients to change
their story around what they'redoing, and I have great
examples of how I do thatWonderful, love, love examples.
And then the last thing isother people, because if you
(01:20):
lost a connection, you actuallyneed to reconnect with people as
well.
That makes sense.
And then the final one is spirit.
So I'm a spiritual being havinga human adventure.
That's part of what I offer isto help them to connect with
what their divine purpose is,what they are authentically here
(01:41):
to do.
And so grief becomes thisgateway doorway, because when
you think about it, especiallyif you lost somebody to death is
you're like really right onthat edge of the two worlds, and
so it's an opening to reallytake you through to the next
level.
That's a great way to look atthat.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
I like that.
I like that.
Welcome back to Mental HealthWarrior and NeuroSpicyMama, the
show that dives deep into thereal stories and life-changing
conversations that help us alllive a little bolder and love a
little harder.
I'm your host, amy, and today'sepisode it's one you do not
(02:22):
want to miss.
We're joined by Dr MichellePetacola, a truly extraordinary
grief specialist andtransformational coach, whose
work has changed countless lives.
If you've ever faced loss orsupported someone who has, this
episode will give you the tools,the hope and the inspiration to
(02:42):
move forward in a way thattruly serves your spirit.
From understanding the hiddenlayers of complex grief to
learning the powerful servemethod for healing, dr Michelle
shows us how loss can become thegateway to a deeper connection
with ourselves and with thepeople and purpose that matter
most.
If you're ready for honestwisdom, practical steps and the
(03:06):
kind of big-heartedencouragement that will have you
feeling empowered by life'sbiggest challenges, you are
absolutely in the right place.
So grab your coffee, settle inand let's get started.
All right, today we're talkingto Dr Michelle Padicola and
(03:29):
she's talking with us aboutgrief.
Welcome, michelle.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Thank you, Amy.
I'm so excited to be on yourshow.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Oh, I'm excited to have you here.
So we've been talking a littleand I'm fascinated by what you
do and how you help people.
You've got a system right.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Yes, I do have a system.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Okay, is there a name ?
Speaker 1 (03:51):
to the system.
Well, it does.
It has an acronym and it'sSERVE, and each of the letters
has a meaning for the processthey use.
Okay, do you want me to go intothat now, or you want?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
to yeah definitely Okay.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
So the SER serve system number one S is surrender
.
So many people get stuck infighting their grief.
You don't want to fight yourgrief Although I understand why
people do that because ourculture literally encourages us
to repress our emotions,especially grief emotions, and
(04:27):
we feel ashamed and embarrassed,especially if we start crying
suddenly, and so all our focusis on trying to hold those
emotions in.
But it's the worst thing youcan do, because emotions emotion
need to move and if you don't,they don't go away.
(04:48):
They don't like evaporate.
They get stuck in the cells inyour body and, depending on
where they get stuck, they coulddo damage to you.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
They can come out in other ways too that you didn't
want right?
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Oh, absolutely, because it's like pressure in a
teapot it's suddenly, they'llburst out at the wrong moment
and you'll overreact.
But also when you're holdingthem in and I know a lot about
this because I've held myemotions in for years is you're
using the muscles in your bodyto literally constrict and hold
(05:21):
them in and hold them in, andwhen you imagine what it would
be like to hold your fist for anhour and then imagine a week or
a month and that's what you'redoing to your body You're
literally holding it.
And so when I work with peoplearound releasing their emotion,
I help them to get into theirbody and find where the
(05:42):
emotional blocks are.
Where, literally, are theyholding that energy in their
body?
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Is it wherever the tightness is in their body, like
somebody feel it in their neckand that kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yep, yep.
In the neck or in the belly, orin the heart or in the head, it
could be any number of places.
A lot of people, a lot of women, have problems around the neck
because they aren't expressing,they're holding, they're
restricting it right at the necklevel.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Wow, that's interesting and that affects
your thyroid and differentthings like that.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Yeah, sure Interesting.
I'm a thyroid cancer survivor,so that made me wonder yeah, the
body is telling you theinformation you need to know.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
So, where it is in your body, you think about the
function of that particularorgan and you say, well, what is
the function of that organ andwhat is my body telling me?
By putting the block rightthere, because it's a two-way
street, it's where you'reholding the emotions in, but the
body is getting the blocksbecause it's trying to tell you
what you need to let go, whatyou need to work on.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Wow, Well, that makes so much sense.
But then you have to figure outhow to work on it.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Yes, that's true.
So I was talking to anotherwoman and she was telling me
about her sister or maybe it washer mother, I forget which who
had worked really hard in thisjob for years and then she did
not get the promotion sheexpected and her heart was
broken and she eventually diedfrom cancer of the female organs
(07:16):
down here.
Well, this is the area ofcreativity, down here, in the
sacral area.
That's where we produce babies,right?
So that's the creative area.
So that she got cancer there isbecause that particular issue
was not resolved and she washolding that.
How sad.
(07:37):
Okay S surrender.
So you need to surrender toyour emotions.
So the next one is E, which isengage.
Because you've lost someconnection or bonding connection
.
You need to re-engage withother people, and sometimes this
(07:59):
is difficult because humanbeings are very particular about
who they want to engage withand who they don't, which is
good.
But, for example, I had aclient and she had lost her
adult daughter and I said yourbody needs hugs, you need to hug
people even if they're not yourdaughter, and she was very
resistant to this because shewanted her daughter.
(08:23):
Well, your daughter is gone andyour body doesn't really tear
if you hug another person.
It just needs that hug.
It needs that physicalconnection with other human
beings.
Of course, I spent a lot oftime in my program helping
people to identify who are theright people and to recognize
(08:46):
that when you are going throughgrief and loss, your address
book's going to change.
Some people will be there foryou and other people will
disappear.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Right, well, and I think that that kind of brings
up to me when someone loses,like a loved pet, want to get
another one right away becausethey're scared of being hurt
again.
Right, the same thing for youknow, losing your child, you
don't want to open up to someoneand get hurt again, right,
right.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Well, I know a lot of people and of course we've been
taught that in our childhood.
You know replace the loss rightaway so you don't feel and you
don't get.
Oh, here, you're feeling badhere, let me give you a piece of
candy or you'll make newfriends, no problem.
But the same way that we theiremotions through their partner,
through their feminine partner,is that the person that you
(09:50):
bring in, if you haven't grieved, you're not going to really be
able to engage in thatrelationship fully.
I had a friend.
She lost a dog that she had for15 years and she got one that
looked like that dog.
What a bad dog.
And so she has never been able,she's not bonded with that dog.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Which is sad for both of them.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Which is sad for both of them.
Yeah, okay, that's E.
So the next one is R, which isthe reframing.
It's the working around thestory that we have, and
oftentimes we have a story ofbeing either victimized like it
wasn't fair, or he shouldn't, orshe shouldn't have left me, or
(10:36):
you know why me, why did ithappen to me?
And I help my clients to changetheir story so that it ends up
being empowering.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Can you give an?
Speaker 1 (10:47):
example of that.
So I'll give you a simpleexample.
Well, I'll give you twoexamples, because I have two
really really good ones.
I was working in hospice as apartner law support facilitator
and there was this one man.
He was from the Philippines andhis wife died of cancer and he
believed that he would neverhave another wife, that that was
(11:11):
all in his culture, that's allyou get and that's the love of
your life.
And he was struggling becausethings would remind him of his
wife's death.
He'd hear a radio program abouther particular disease or he'll
read an article and he wouldfeel that grief.
And I said well, what if youchange your perspective of that
(11:34):
grieving?
And instead of seeing that as afailing or a sign that you
haven't gotten over your grief,imagine that that's actually an
expression of your love, thatit's a measurement of how much
love you have and that everytime you grieve, you're sending
(11:55):
that love up to your loved one.
Yeah, that's beautiful.
He changed.
He changed so fast.
I mean he was out of out thedoor in less than a month
because that was it.
That was that one little teenyshift that just said oh, I mean,
I don't have to feel bad aboutthis.
This is my love.
And every time he would grieve,he would welcome it, he would
(12:19):
engage in it, he wouldappreciate it, he would enjoy it
, he would indulge in it.
Yeah, what a different response.
What would appreciate it?
He would enjoy it, he wouldindulge in it.
What a different response.
What a different reaction.
A whole new life, a whole newlife.
And in some ways, when we losesomebody who's really close, we
may grieve them for the rest ofour lives.
But if we see that grief as ameasurement of our love, then we
(12:44):
don't see that as a failing.
Oh, okay, right, we see it assomething positive.
And that's huge, that's a hugechange, yeah.
So this other case was verydifferent.
A woman came to me and she hadbeen grieving the loss of her
father for three years and shewas stuck and she couldn't move
forward with her life.
(13:05):
And it turned out that herfather had died of cancer and
she wanted to take care of him.
She wanted to be his caregiver,to be with him and have him die
in his own home.
He didn't want that.
He wanted to be in a nursinghome.
He wanted strangers to takecare of him.
(13:26):
He didn't want to burden her.
He had the money, he wanted todo it this way and she felt so
guilty that she hadn't insistedon his doing that.
And that was what was holdingher back.
So I said, do you believe in anafterlife?
Do you believe that your fatheris up there somewhere?
(13:47):
And she, eh, kind of I said,well, what if he's watching over
you and you have stopped yourlife because he refused to go
along with what you wanted?
Her eyes like popped open.
It's like oh my God, I said,and he can't do anything because
(14:09):
he's dead.
And here he is having to beburdened by this guilt of
holding you back from livingyour life Totally changed,
totally changed her perspective.
She just like, oh my God, Idon't want to do that to my dad.
(14:30):
I'm so crippled right, Right.
Oh wow, what a great turnaround.
So that's just, it's one of mygeniuses is to be able to see
that different perspective forsomebody and help them to make
that shift.
And there are a whole bunch ofother ways in which we shift
them, but that's just one of thethings.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Have you always been able to find that shift, or is
that something you learned laterin life?
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Well, I have to tell you that most of them, probably
my first 45 years I was totallyshut down.
Yeah, I had my own childhoodwounds and fear of abandonment
and I learned to repress myemotions.
I had to learn that's why I'mgood at this is I had to learn
(15:12):
how to bring my emotions and myfeelings back online.
As a very young child, Iescaped into my brain, into my
head, into my thoughts, and thatbecame the safe place for me
because my emotions weren'tworking for me.
You know, nobody responded tome.
My mother was a young mother andshe had two other children and
(15:35):
she was moving a household toJapan.
My father, who I had bondedwith, he had been transferred to
Japan by the US Army and shecouldn't help me.
So I had to shut down myemotions because I would become
you know, I'd be dehydrated if Iwere to cry all the time.
So that's what I learned and,having listened to this stuff
(15:57):
about neurodiversity, I believethat I am actually a super
hypersensitive person and thatit was so intense for me that I
had to shut down.
Yes, Now that I brought thosefeelings back online, I have
these capabilities of sensingwhat somebody else feels and
(16:22):
actually feeling in their body,where they are feeling the block
, I know Immediately.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Where it is.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
You feel it in yourself, I feel it in myself.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Wow, okay, and when you finally brought your
emotions back online, was therelike one moment where it was
just overwhelming, which is whateverybody's afraid of, or was
it more peaceful?
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Well, it came in steps.
Okay, part of it was that myfirst husband actually left me.
So first my father left me andthen my first, my first husband,
abandoned me for another womanand it was very, very
distressing and I ran off to aspiritual community where I
(17:04):
traded my brain for spirit, youknow, and so I hid out in the
ether, which is a little bitwhat they talk about the
spiritual bypass.
So I did that and I actuallydidn't grieve the loss of that
husband for a long time.
But when I got together with mycurrent husband I saw I was
able to see how I was setting upfor being abandoned again, so
(17:31):
that anything that he showedthat showed like he was
resisting or holding back, Iwould pull back.
I would see that I said, oh, Ineed to work on this.
So I actually did some very,very early childhood healing
program and that was huge.
But the big breakthrough wasthat both my parents died within
(17:53):
six months of each other.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Wow, how did you handle that?
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Well, it was hugely eye-opening and emotionally
opening and that's why I workwith people a lot around grief
and death and loss.
That was transformational forme.
In fact I even made adocumentary film series about
death because it was soimpactful.
(18:21):
And the moment that really waskey for me was I had come home
to help my mother finish up herbusiness, and my mother was a
toy designer.
She actually sold her toys tomajor toy companies in New York
City with my aunt.
So she was a pretty amazingcreative person.
(18:43):
But she also had six childrenand we only got thimbles.
It wasn't like she didn't loveus, but she didn't really know
how.
She didn't have much love inher childhood.
Anyway, we're sitting in herstudio and I'm trying to be the
dutiful daughter and help herclean up her mess, because she's
(19:06):
a creative, she's got stuffeverywhere.
So I pick up a piece of paperit's a Xerox copy of one of her
designs and I hand it to her andI say do you need this anymore?
I'm like I'm throwing stuff out, I want to get rid of stuff.
And she looks at it and shesays I guess I'll never get to
(19:27):
that project.
Oh my God, it was like shenailed me with an arrow through
my heart, because in that momentI really got what deadline
means she ran out of time.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Oh, that gives me chills, just thinking about how
far that must have been.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
But I did not engage her then and you can imagine
this I had craved all my lifeintimacy with my mother and this
was that moment and I ran awaybecause I was not ready for the
emotional level of that.
I was too afraid.
But when you make mistakes, youlearn a lot from those mistakes
(20:13):
, lot from those mistakes.
So the big thing I got out ofthat moment was if my mother
could have regrets and she waslike my poster child for living
your life passion if she couldhave regrets, where did that
leave me?
And I was somebody who hadtotally shut down.
I was a people pleaser.
(20:34):
I worried about everybodyelse's needs and didn't take
care of my own needs, and ittransformed me.
That's when I went after shedied.
I decided I was going to make adocumentary film, which morphed
into Three, and I got into thiswhole stuff around grief and
loss, and I've never turned back.
I've never looked back.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Yeah, because it sounds like you were at a place
in your life with your newhusband where you were living
that self-fulfilling prophecy ofI don't want to be left, so I'm
going to make that happen.
Right, You're pushing him away.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Right.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
So I'm interested what happened with your mom and
what happened with your newhusband?
How did that correlate?
Speaker 1 (21:19):
He actually championed me because he's a
creative, so he alwaysencourages my creativity.
He thinks I work way too hard,way too much time on the
computer.
He wants me to be doingwatercolors, not doing all this
stuff, especially becausecoaching can be a challenging
work.
(21:39):
But I have to go with what Ibelieve is my soul's mission.
And my soul's mission and themission of my film is to wake
people up to this short andglorious experience in this
three-dimension plane and tomake the best use of it, to be
yourself and not be whateverybody else wants you.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
So do you actually help them find out what their
purpose is?
Yes, yes, that's part of it.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
So where were we?
We were at reframe, we didn'tget to the other.
Oh sorry, okay, great.
So the reframe is to change thestory, but the story now
provides you with thattrajectory.
Towards where do you go nextWith this story?
What's your happy ending?
What do you envision for therest of your life?
(22:32):
That's what changed me.
I changed my perspective, Ichanged what I was going to do
with my life.
So the next is V, which isvision.
What's your vision?
What fits with what you learnedabout yourself, having gone
through your whole life andseeing it as the hero's journey?
(22:53):
Where are you going?
Where does it make sense thatyou're going?
What resonates with your heart?
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Pardon People always have the answer to that.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
They have a sense of what appeals to them, and if
they don't, it doesn't matter,because you say, oh, now I get
to try different things out andsee what works for me, and maybe
you'll work on something for awhile and then you'll decide
this isn't what I want and youtry something else.
(23:29):
There's no failure, there'sonly information.
That's great.
That's great, but what adifference to make decisions and
to do something in your lifebased on what feels right inside
of you, as opposed to whatpeople have been telling you you
need to do.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Yeah, that's definitely different.
That's great.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
One more letter, so the last one is another E, and
this time it's express.
So you have a vision, but youactually have to birth it into
the world and that's express andshare it with others.
And now the grief that servedyou.
Now you're serving other people.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Well, yeah, I've always believed that when you're
helping others, it helps you,so that's good.
So you said you've been doingthis how long?
Since you were 45?
.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Well, I started the films when and I was actually
older than that I was in like 48.
I started making my films andit took me about 10 years and I
started screening the films,especially in cancer communities
and engaging people in thatrealm.
And then I started studying howto be a coach and doing that
(24:55):
and being in business.
When I was working in hospice Iwas doing partner loss groups.
It's like, oh, this is what Iwant to do, this is what I'm
interested in.
It's not so much death orhanging out with people who are
dying, it's people who are aliveand I'm like that midwife for
the rebirth.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Yeah, you're totally helping them process that and
rebirth themselves.
That's great.
I asked about the age becauseI'm 54 and I didn't go back to
college for my grad degree until52.
And it seems like lately I'mseeing all these women in their
mid and later life doingincredible things like you've
(25:36):
been doing, and so I think thatis so incredible that you're
doing that.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Well, my mother was like an example for that.
She was still doing herbusiness.
You know, it's like for thattime I have more stuff to do.
No-transcript.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
No, it ends up being like that's the place they go to
die.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
That's the place they go to die and they should be
having classes on.
Okay, how can I engage in theworld, even if I'm in this
community?
Who can I make a difference for?
It could be somebody else inthe community, or they could be
be writing letters, or there'sso many things that people can
do and then they can feel likethey're worthwhile.
(26:45):
I'm going to share a story thatI heard when I was I guess I
was screening one of my films ata hospice and one of these
nurses said no, she was ahospice volunteer.
And one of these nurses said no, she was a hospice volunteer
and she was visiting this manwho used to be the patriarch of
the family.
He was powerful, he wasdecisive, he was the patriarch,
(27:09):
and now he was dying and he wastotally dependent on other
people and he felt depressed anddevastated and she said this
changed the story.
She said why don't you be thepatriarch and show them how to
die?
Speaker 2 (27:30):
And he took it on.
Oh wow, that's amazing.
That changed it for everybodyin his family.
I'm sure that changed it foreverybody in this family.
I'm sure that changed it foreverybody in the family.
No-transcript Right.
(27:54):
Like they shouldn't have ahappy day, they should always be
grieving.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Right, right, yes, yes, and I do run into that.
That's one of the things peoplefeel like, if they allow
themselves any joy, that theyare dishonoring the memory of
the person they've lost.
And I just help them to see itin a different way and say,
first of all, what do you thinkthat person is thinking right
(28:19):
now about you choosing not tofeel joy?
How do you think they feel?
What do you think they wouldwant?
What would they say to you?
What are they saying to youright now?
Just close your eyes and feelin and what are they saying.
And that usually helps them tomake that shift is to hear that.
And the other thing, like formothers, if they have other
(28:40):
children, it's really importantfor them to be there for their
other children too a funeral orthey see a friend that's
grieving, or what is somethingthat is acceptable to say and
(29:01):
can be helpful and not harmful.
Hug.
Okay, Just hug them and say I'mso sorry.
I'm sure you are reallystruggling.
I just want to know you, toknow that I'm here for you and I
will be reaching out to you andchecking in on you, and you can
(29:22):
push me away as many times asyou want, and I'm here.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Oh, that makes me tear up.
That's beautiful.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
So many times, what we think is that we somehow have
to solve the problem or that wehave to stop them from feeling,
which, of course, is what wewant to do.
If you ever need somebody toshoulder to cry on, I'm here for
you, right?
You won't upset me if you cry.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
That's great.
I think that'll help a lot ofpeople.
So tell me a little bit moreabout finding your purpose, like
how you help people do that.
I know you talked to them aboutwhat they envision their life
being Right.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
I'm just wondering how you do that?
How do you do that?
So, first, they've re-framedtheir story as a hero's journey,
and some of the things thatthey've been challenged by and
very often the things that aremost intense for them, is
spirit's way of telling them orteaching them what they need to
(30:28):
know At least that was the casefor me is the stuff that I
struggled with and overcamebecame something I could share
with.
For other people is share that,share my journey, share my
discovery, share my process, andso that might be one way to
look at it, but sometimes Iwould just take them through a
(30:54):
going into their body andlistening to their body.
So I'll take them through aguided journey there.
And I was having a workshopwith this woman and she suddenly
came up with I want to sing.
She says oh, but I'm too old.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
I said oh, ed you're too old, as long as you can sing
.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
You may not have to become an opera singer, but you
can still sing, and that's whatshe started doing was getting
involved with groups and singing.
That's great.
You know, we put these littlerestrictions on ourselves that
we don't need to do.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Right when really it's an open world out there.
It is.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
And it doesn't necessarily have to be a career,
it can just be a sideline, aslong as you still have that
meaning and you're fulfillingyour purpose and you're feeding
your soul and you're beingcreative.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Yeah, Right, that makes sense.
I have another question aboutspirituality.
Do you find that this is a timein life where people that are
going through this grief processchange their spiritual?
Speaker 1 (32:03):
beliefs.
You know, especially if theylose an adult child, they may
lose their faith.
As I said, they can go throughthat victimization and that, by
(32:23):
the way, that's a totallyreasonable response when you
think that losing somebody isexperienced by a human being as
a threat to their survival.
Because we are social animals,that is, we are literally wired
in our brains and in our bodiesto bond with other people and we
(32:43):
actually do better as a speciesin community.
So you break a significant bondand that triggers that survival
response.
Literally, these chemicals juststart flowing in your body and
they trigger the fight, flee,freeze, and I guess the latest
one is fawn Fight, flee freeze,fawn response.
(33:04):
And you can see it, it pops outat you all the ways in which
people flee, like they starttraveling all over the world
because they're trying to escapetheir grief.
Or they get angry at people,they get angry at their family
members, or they get angry atthe doctor, or some person is
called up about the person thatthey've lost, not knowing that
(33:26):
they've lost them, and they justtake it out on that person on
the telephone.
That's the anger, and sometimesthey internalize it and that
that becomes, they internalizeand they get angry at themselves
.
Oh, I should have known better,I should have realized that
they were in danger of dying.
I should have pushed them moreto go to the doctors.
Blah, blah, blah.
(33:47):
So you have to release emotions, release emotions.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Yes, I know.
When I was right out of highschool I was in college one of
my high school friends wasmurdered by his mom's dad and I
still remember I was not soangry at his I mean, I was angry
(34:12):
at the guy who shot him but Iwas really angry at my friend,
the dime, make sense.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Yeah, yes, oh, yes, oh yes, and that's one of the
things that I work with myclients on is regrets and
resentments.
Regrets are the things that youdid or didn't do that you feel
bad about, and the resentmentsare the things that the other
person did or didn't do andleaving.
There's that abandonment, youknow, and, yeah, you're pissed
(34:37):
off.
Why did you put yourself inthat situation where you would
get shot, you know?
Didn't you know that that guywas gonna kill you, didn't you?
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Right, but it makes sense.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Yes, it totally makes sense, because that's that
anger response.
And anger is better thandespair or depression because
it's more activating and so it'ssomething you can work with to
release.
And oftentimes I encourage myclients to use gibberish to
express their anger, because andthis is something that anybody
(35:10):
can use when you're angry atsomething, if you use words, you
are recycling the anger overand over again because the brain
hears it and then the body getsupset and then you recycle it
again and again.
But if you say gibberish, youcan get the emotional energy out
without stimulating the brainto tell these stories that are
(35:32):
going to make you angry againthe brain to tell these stories
that are going to make you angryagain.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
Wow, that is fascinating.
I would feel silly doing it inthe beginning.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Well, you don't have to do it in public.
You know in the back through orin your car.
Right, that is cool, becausethe other way is, if you're
angry and I've certainlyexperienced this where you're
angry at yourself, you canreally curse yourself out and
it's terrible because you'rereally all your cells are saying
well, yeah, you don't want todo that.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Worst enemy, yeah.
So this has been fascinating.
How do people work with you?
How can they get in touch withyou?
Speaker 1 (36:12):
Well, the best way to get in touch is first to ask
yourself do you have complexgrief?
And I have a checklist orsurvey that they can take, that
they can fill it out and I willsend them an interpretation, an
assessment, and then they'll getsome follow-up emails that will
help them to start to engage inthe CERV system.
(36:33):
So they can get it by going tocomplexgriefchecklistcom.
Okay, and that will take themand they need to put it in the
not Google search, but in thebrowser so that it will take
them to the right place.
So they put it in the search.
Look at weird stuff.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
We don't want that.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
No, so just put it in the search.
Look at weird stuff.
We don't want that.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
No, so just put it in there Complexstriefchecklistcom
.
Okay, and is this something youdo?
Speaker 1 (37:05):
on Zoom with people or in person.
Yes, yes, if I actually havesomebody who's in my area, I can
work with him in person, butmostly on Zoom.
I've been doing Zoom for a longtime.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Isn't that an incredible way you can do
nowadays?
I know, I know.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Well, fortunately before COVID I had already been
on Zoom.
Oh, you were sort of a game.
I was, I was.
That's great.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
All right.
Is there anything you'd like toleave our audience with today?
Any words of wisdom?
Speaker 1 (37:36):
you'd like to leave our audience with today Any
words of wisdom?
Sure, you are essential.
Every one of you out there areessential.
You're here for a reason, andevery one of us, every one of
you, have something to give tothis world, and that is your
journey is to find out what itis and to engage with it.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
I love that.
All right.
Well, thank you so much forcoming today.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
You're so very welcome and thank you for
inviting me.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
Wow, just take a breath and sit with all of that
for a moment.
I hope you feel as moved andenergized as I do right now.
Dr Michelle's insights on grief, purpose and transformation
aren't just powerful.
They're life-changing For anyone of us who's ever struggled
with loss or wondered where tofind meaning again.
If this conversation sparkedsomething for you, please let us
(38:32):
know.
Rate and review this episode,because your feedback helps us
reach more listeners and growthis beautiful community of
courageous, open-hearted peoplejust like you.
And if someone in your lifeneeds this message maybe a
friend, a family member or thatsoul in your circle who's
walking through something heavyshare this episode with them.
(38:52):
You never know how oneheartfelt story, one shift in
perspective, can change a life.
Thank you for being here, forshowing up for yourself and
those you care about.
Remember you are essential, youare needed and your journey
matters.
Until next time, keep advancing, warrior.
So I work with people that have what I call complex
grief, which is that they hadsome unresolved losses earlier
in their lives sometimes oftenin their childhood usually
around some abandonment issue itcould be emotional or physical
abandonment and so when theyhave a current loss and almost
(00:24):
always when we have grief it isabout disconnection, not losing
connections, and that's whatcauses the grief.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Okay, so you have a different take on how to heal
grief right.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
I have a system and I do work with four different
superpowers.
One is the body, so the body issuper important and I really
work with people in terms ofactually releasing the emotional
energy out of their body so itisn't stuck in their cells and
that's also working with theemotions but it is in the body,
(01:00):
but you have to use theemotional tools to get it out.
And then mindset is really hugeand I help my clients to change
their story around what they'redoing, and I have great
examples of how I do thatWonderful, love, love examples.
And then the last thing isother people, because if you
(01:20):
lost a connection, you actuallyneed to reconnect with people as
well.
That makes sense.
And then the final one is spirit.
So I'm a spiritual being havinga human adventure.
That's part of what I offer isto help them to connect with
what their divine purpose is,what they are authentically here
(01:41):
to do.
And so grief becomes thisgateway doorway, because when
you think about it, especiallyif you lost somebody to death is
you're like really right onthat edge of the two worlds, and
so it's an opening to reallytake you through to the next
level.
That's a great way to look atthat.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
I like that.
I like that.
Welcome back to Mental HealthWarrior and NeuroSpicyMama, the
show that dives deep into thereal stories and life-changing
conversations that help us alllive a little bolder and love a
little harder.
I'm your host, amy, and today'sepisode it's one you do not
(02:22):
want to miss.
We're joined by Dr MichellePetacola, a truly extraordinary
grief specialist andtransformational coach, whose
work has changed countless lives.
If you've ever faced loss orsupported someone who has, this
episode will give you the tools,the hope and the inspiration to
(02:42):
move forward in a way thattruly serves your spirit.
From understanding the hiddenlayers of complex grief to
learning the powerful servemethod for healing, dr Michelle
shows us how loss can become thegateway to a deeper connection
with ourselves and with thepeople and purpose that matter
most.
If you're ready for honestwisdom, practical steps and the
(03:06):
kind of big-heartedencouragement that will have you
feeling empowered by life'sbiggest challenges, you are
absolutely in the right place.
So grab your coffee, settle inand let's get started.
All right, today we're talkingto Dr Michelle Padicola and
(03:29):
she's talking with us aboutgrief.
Welcome, michelle.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Thank you, Amy.
I'm so excited to be on yourshow.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Oh, I'm excited to have you here.
So we've been talking a littleand I'm fascinated by what you
do and how you help people.
You've got a system right.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Yes, I do have a system.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Okay, is there a name ?
Speaker 1 (03:51):
to the system.
Well, it does.
It has an acronym and it'sSERVE, and each of the letters
has a meaning for the processthey use.
Okay, do you want me to go intothat now, or you want?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
to yeah definitely Okay.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
So the SER serve system number one S is surrender
.
So many people get stuck infighting their grief.
You don't want to fight yourgrief Although I understand why
people do that because ourculture literally encourages us
to repress our emotions,especially grief emotions, and
(04:27):
we feel ashamed and embarrassed,especially if we start crying
suddenly, and so all our focusis on trying to hold those
emotions in.
But it's the worst thing youcan do, because emotions emotion
need to move and if you don't,they don't go away.
(04:48):
They don't like evaporate.
They get stuck in the cells inyour body and, depending on
where they get stuck, they coulddo damage to you.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
They can come out in other ways too that you didn't
want right?
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Oh, absolutely, because it's like pressure in a
teapot it's suddenly, they'llburst out at the wrong moment
and you'll overreact.
But also when you're holdingthem in and I know a lot about
this because I've held myemotions in for years is you're
using the muscles in your bodyto literally constrict and hold
(05:21):
them in and hold them in, andwhen you imagine what it would
be like to hold your fist for anhour and then imagine a week or
a month and that's what you'redoing to your body You're
literally holding it.
And so when I work with peoplearound releasing their emotion,
I help them to get into theirbody and find where the
(05:42):
emotional blocks are.
Where, literally, are theyholding that energy in their
body?
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Is it wherever the tightness is in their body, like
somebody feel it in their neckand that kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yep, yep.
In the neck or in the belly, orin the heart or in the head, it
could be any number of places.
A lot of people, a lot of women, have problems around the neck
because they aren't expressing,they're holding, they're
restricting it right at the necklevel.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Wow, that's interesting and that affects
your thyroid and differentthings like that.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Yeah, sure Interesting.
I'm a thyroid cancer survivor,so that made me wonder yeah, the
body is telling you theinformation you need to know.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
So, where it is in your body, you think about the
function of that particularorgan and you say, well, what is
the function of that organ andwhat is my body telling me?
By putting the block rightthere, because it's a two-way
street, it's where you'reholding the emotions in, but the
body is getting the blocksbecause it's trying to tell you
what you need to let go, whatyou need to work on.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Wow, Well, that makes so much sense.
But then you have to figure outhow to work on it.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Yes, that's true.
So I was talking to anotherwoman and she was telling me
about her sister or maybe it washer mother, I forget which who
had worked really hard in thisjob for years and then she did
not get the promotion sheexpected and her heart was
broken and she eventually diedfrom cancer of the female organs
(07:16):
down here.
Well, this is the area ofcreativity, down here, in the
sacral area.
That's where we produce babies,right?
So that's the creative area.
So that she got cancer there isbecause that particular issue
was not resolved and she washolding that.
How sad.
(07:37):
Okay S surrender.
So you need to surrender toyour emotions.
So the next one is E, which isengage.
Because you've lost someconnection or bonding connection
.
You need to re-engage withother people, and sometimes this
(07:59):
is difficult because humanbeings are very particular about
who they want to engage withand who they don't, which is
good.
But, for example, I had aclient and she had lost her
adult daughter and I said yourbody needs hugs, you need to hug
people even if they're not yourdaughter, and she was very
resistant to this because shewanted her daughter.
(08:23):
Well, your daughter is gone andyour body doesn't really tear
if you hug another person.
It just needs that hug.
It needs that physicalconnection with other human
beings.
Of course, I spent a lot oftime in my program helping
people to identify who are theright people and to recognize
(08:46):
that when you are going throughgrief and loss, your address
book's going to change.
Some people will be there foryou and other people will
disappear.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Right, well, and I think that that kind of brings
up to me when someone loses,like a loved pet, want to get
another one right away becausethey're scared of being hurt
again.
Right, the same thing for youknow, losing your child, you
don't want to open up to someoneand get hurt again, right,
right.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Well, I know a lot of people and of course we've been
taught that in our childhood.
You know replace the loss rightaway so you don't feel and you
don't get.
Oh, here, you're feeling badhere, let me give you a piece of
candy or you'll make newfriends, no problem.
But the same way that we theiremotions through their partner,
through their feminine partner,is that the person that you
(09:50):
bring in, if you haven't grieved, you're not going to really be
able to engage in thatrelationship fully.
I had a friend.
She lost a dog that she had for15 years and she got one that
looked like that dog.
What a bad dog.
And so she has never been able,she's not bonded with that dog.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Which is sad for both of them.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Which is sad for both of them.
Yeah, okay, that's E.
So the next one is R, which isthe reframing.
It's the working around thestory that we have, and
oftentimes we have a story ofbeing either victimized like it
wasn't fair, or he shouldn't, orshe shouldn't have left me, or
(10:36):
you know why me, why did ithappen to me?
And I help my clients to changetheir story so that it ends up
being empowering.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Can you give an?
Speaker 1 (10:47):
example of that.
So I'll give you a simpleexample.
Well, I'll give you twoexamples, because I have two
really really good ones.
I was working in hospice as apartner law support facilitator
and there was this one man.
He was from the Philippines andhis wife died of cancer and he
believed that he would neverhave another wife, that that was
(11:11):
all in his culture, that's allyou get and that's the love of
your life.
And he was struggling becausethings would remind him of his
wife's death.
He'd hear a radio program abouther particular disease or he'll
read an article and he wouldfeel that grief.
And I said well, what if youchange your perspective of that
(11:34):
grieving?
And instead of seeing that as afailing or a sign that you
haven't gotten over your grief,imagine that that's actually an
expression of your love, thatit's a measurement of how much
love you have and that everytime you grieve, you're sending
(11:55):
that love up to your loved one.
Yeah, that's beautiful.
He changed.
He changed so fast.
I mean he was out of out thedoor in less than a month
because that was it.
That was that one little teenyshift that just said oh, I mean,
I don't have to feel bad aboutthis.
This is my love.
And every time he would grieve,he would welcome it, he would
(12:19):
engage in it, he wouldappreciate it, he would enjoy it
, he would indulge in it.
Yeah, what a different response.
What would appreciate it?
He would enjoy it, he wouldindulge in it.
What a different response.
What a different reaction.
A whole new life, a whole newlife.
And in some ways, when we losesomebody who's really close, we
may grieve them for the rest ofour lives.
But if we see that grief as ameasurement of our love, then we
(12:44):
don't see that as a failing.
Oh, okay, right, we see it assomething positive.
And that's huge, that's a hugechange, yeah.
So this other case was verydifferent.
A woman came to me and she hadbeen grieving the loss of her
father for three years and shewas stuck and she couldn't move
forward with her life.
(13:05):
And it turned out that herfather had died of cancer and
she wanted to take care of him.
She wanted to be his caregiver,to be with him and have him die
in his own home.
He didn't want that.
He wanted to be in a nursinghome.
He wanted strangers to takecare of him.
(13:26):
He didn't want to burden her.
He had the money, he wanted todo it this way and she felt so
guilty that she hadn't insistedon his doing that.
And that was what was holdingher back.
So I said, do you believe in anafterlife?
Do you believe that your fatheris up there somewhere?
(13:47):
And she, eh, kind of I said,well, what if he's watching over
you and you have stopped yourlife because he refused to go
along with what you wanted?
Her eyes like popped open.
It's like oh my God, I said,and he can't do anything because
(14:09):
he's dead.
And here he is having to beburdened by this guilt of
holding you back from livingyour life Totally changed,
totally changed her perspective.
She just like, oh my God, Idon't want to do that to my dad.
(14:30):
I'm so crippled right, Right.
Oh wow, what a great turnaround.
So that's just, it's one of mygeniuses is to be able to see
that different perspective forsomebody and help them to make
that shift.
And there are a whole bunch ofother ways in which we shift
them, but that's just one of thethings.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Have you always been able to find that shift, or is
that something you learned laterin life?
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Well, I have to tell you that most of them, probably
my first 45 years I was totallyshut down.
Yeah, I had my own childhoodwounds and fear of abandonment
and I learned to repress myemotions.
I had to learn that's why I'mgood at this is I had to learn
(15:12):
how to bring my emotions and myfeelings back online.
As a very young child, Iescaped into my brain, into my
head, into my thoughts, and thatbecame the safe place for me
because my emotions weren'tworking for me.
You know, nobody responded tome.
My mother was a young mother andshe had two other children and
(15:35):
she was moving a household toJapan.
My father, who I had bondedwith, he had been transferred to
Japan by the US Army and shecouldn't help me.
So I had to shut down myemotions because I would become
you know, I'd be dehydrated if Iwere to cry all the time.
So that's what I learned and,having listened to this stuff
(15:57):
about neurodiversity, I believethat I am actually a super
hypersensitive person and thatit was so intense for me that I
had to shut down.
Yes, Now that I brought thosefeelings back online, I have
these capabilities of sensingwhat somebody else feels and
(16:22):
actually feeling in their body,where they are feeling the block
, I know Immediately.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Where it is.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
You feel it in yourself, I feel it in myself.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Wow, okay, and when you finally brought your
emotions back online, was therelike one moment where it was
just overwhelming, which is whateverybody's afraid of, or was
it more peaceful?
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Well, it came in steps.
Okay, part of it was that myfirst husband actually left me.
So first my father left me andthen my first, my first husband,
abandoned me for another womanand it was very, very
distressing and I ran off to aspiritual community where I
(17:04):
traded my brain for spirit, youknow, and so I hid out in the
ether, which is a little bitwhat they talk about the
spiritual bypass.
So I did that and I actuallydidn't grieve the loss of that
husband for a long time.
But when I got together with mycurrent husband I saw I was
able to see how I was setting upfor being abandoned again, so
(17:31):
that anything that he showedthat showed like he was
resisting or holding back, Iwould pull back.
I would see that I said, oh, Ineed to work on this.
So I actually did some very,very early childhood healing
program and that was huge.
But the big breakthrough wasthat both my parents died within
(17:53):
six months of each other.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Wow, how did you handle that?
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Well, it was hugely eye-opening and emotionally
opening and that's why I workwith people a lot around grief
and death and loss.
That was transformational forme.
In fact I even made adocumentary film series about
death because it was soimpactful.
(18:21):
And the moment that really waskey for me was I had come home
to help my mother finish up herbusiness, and my mother was a
toy designer.
She actually sold her toys tomajor toy companies in New York
City with my aunt.
So she was a pretty amazingcreative person.
(18:43):
But she also had six childrenand we only got thimbles.
It wasn't like she didn't loveus, but she didn't really know
how.
She didn't have much love inher childhood.
Anyway, we're sitting in herstudio and I'm trying to be the
dutiful daughter and help herclean up her mess, because she's
(19:06):
a creative, she's got stuffeverywhere.
So I pick up a piece of paperit's a Xerox copy of one of her
designs and I hand it to her andI say do you need this anymore?
I'm like I'm throwing stuff out, I want to get rid of stuff.
And she looks at it and shesays I guess I'll never get to
(19:27):
that project.
Oh my God, it was like shenailed me with an arrow through
my heart, because in that momentI really got what deadline
means she ran out of time.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Oh, that gives me chills, just thinking about how
far that must have been.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
But I did not engage her then and you can imagine
this I had craved all my lifeintimacy with my mother and this
was that moment and I ran awaybecause I was not ready for the
emotional level of that.
I was too afraid.
But when you make mistakes, youlearn a lot from those mistakes
(20:13):
, lot from those mistakes.
So the big thing I got out ofthat moment was if my mother
could have regrets and she waslike my poster child for living
your life passion if she couldhave regrets, where did that
leave me?
And I was somebody who hadtotally shut down.
I was a people pleaser.
(20:34):
I worried about everybodyelse's needs and didn't take
care of my own needs, and ittransformed me.
That's when I went after shedied.
I decided I was going to make adocumentary film, which morphed
into Three, and I got into thiswhole stuff around grief and
loss, and I've never turned back.
I've never looked back.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Yeah, because it sounds like you were at a place
in your life with your newhusband where you were living
that self-fulfilling prophecy ofI don't want to be left, so I'm
going to make that happen.
Right, You're pushing him away.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Right.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
So I'm interested what happened with your mom and
what happened with your newhusband?
How did that correlate?
Speaker 1 (21:19):
He actually championed me because he's a
creative, so he alwaysencourages my creativity.
He thinks I work way too hard,way too much time on the
computer.
He wants me to be doingwatercolors, not doing all this
stuff, especially becausecoaching can be a challenging
work.
(21:39):
But I have to go with what Ibelieve is my soul's mission.
And my soul's mission and themission of my film is to wake
people up to this short andglorious experience in this
three-dimension plane and tomake the best use of it, to be
yourself and not be whateverybody else wants you.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
So do you actually help them find out what their
purpose is?
Yes, yes, that's part of it.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
So where were we?
We were at reframe, we didn'tget to the other.
Oh sorry, okay, great.
So the reframe is to change thestory, but the story now
provides you with thattrajectory.
Towards where do you go nextWith this story?
What's your happy ending?
What do you envision for therest of your life?
(22:32):
That's what changed me.
I changed my perspective, Ichanged what I was going to do
with my life.
So the next is V, which isvision.
What's your vision?
What fits with what you learnedabout yourself, having gone
through your whole life andseeing it as the hero's journey?
(22:53):
Where are you going?
Where does it make sense thatyou're going?
What resonates with your heart?
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Pardon People always have the answer to that.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
They have a sense of what appeals to them, and if
they don't, it doesn't matter,because you say, oh, now I get
to try different things out andsee what works for me, and maybe
you'll work on something for awhile and then you'll decide
this isn't what I want and youtry something else.
(23:29):
There's no failure, there'sonly information.
That's great.
That's great, but what adifference to make decisions and
to do something in your lifebased on what feels right inside
of you, as opposed to whatpeople have been telling you you
need to do.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Yeah, that's definitely different.
That's great.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
One more letter, so the last one is another E, and
this time it's express.
So you have a vision, but youactually have to birth it into
the world and that's express andshare it with others.
And now the grief that servedyou.
Now you're serving other people.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Well, yeah, I've always believed that when you're
helping others, it helps you,so that's good.
So you said you've been doingthis how long?
Since you were 45?
.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Well, I started the films when and I was actually
older than that I was in like 48.
I started making my films andit took me about 10 years and I
started screening the films,especially in cancer communities
and engaging people in thatrealm.
And then I started studying howto be a coach and doing that
(24:55):
and being in business.
When I was working in hospice Iwas doing partner loss groups.
It's like, oh, this is what Iwant to do, this is what I'm
interested in.
It's not so much death orhanging out with people who are
dying, it's people who are aliveand I'm like that midwife for
the rebirth.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Yeah, you're totally helping them process that and
rebirth themselves.
That's great.
I asked about the age becauseI'm 54 and I didn't go back to
college for my grad degree until52.
And it seems like lately I'mseeing all these women in their
mid and later life doingincredible things like you've
(25:36):
been doing, and so I think thatis so incredible that you're
doing that.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Well, my mother was like an example for that.
She was still doing herbusiness.
You know, it's like for thattime I have more stuff to do.
No-transcript.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
No, it ends up being like that's the place they go to
die.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
That's the place they go to die and they should be
having classes on.
Okay, how can I engage in theworld, even if I'm in this
community?
Who can I make a difference for?
It could be somebody else inthe community, or they could be
be writing letters, or there'sso many things that people can
do and then they can feel likethey're worthwhile.
(26:45):
I'm going to share a story thatI heard when I was I guess I
was screening one of my films ata hospice and one of these
nurses said no, she was ahospice volunteer.
And one of these nurses said no, she was a hospice volunteer
and she was visiting this manwho used to be the patriarch of
the family.
He was powerful, he wasdecisive, he was the patriarch,
(27:09):
and now he was dying and he wastotally dependent on other
people and he felt depressed anddevastated and she said this
changed the story.
She said why don't you be thepatriarch and show them how to
die?
Speaker 2 (27:30):
And he took it on.
Oh wow, that's amazing.
That changed it for everybodyin his family.
I'm sure that changed it foreverybody in this family.
I'm sure that changed it foreverybody in the family.
No-transcript Right.
(27:54):
Like they shouldn't have ahappy day, they should always be
grieving.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Right, right, yes, yes, and I do run into that.
That's one of the things peoplefeel like, if they allow
themselves any joy, that theyare dishonoring the memory of
the person they've lost.
And I just help them to see itin a different way and say,
first of all, what do you thinkthat person is thinking right
(28:19):
now about you choosing not tofeel joy?
How do you think they feel?
What do you think they wouldwant?
What would they say to you?
What are they saying to youright now?
Just close your eyes and feelin and what are they saying.
And that usually helps them tomake that shift is to hear that.
And the other thing, like formothers, if they have other
(28:40):
children, it's really importantfor them to be there for their
other children too a funeral orthey see a friend that's
grieving, or what is somethingthat is acceptable to say and
(29:01):
can be helpful and not harmful.
Hug.
Okay, Just hug them and say I'mso sorry.
I'm sure you are reallystruggling.
I just want to know you, toknow that I'm here for you and I
will be reaching out to you andchecking in on you, and you can
(29:22):
push me away as many times asyou want, and I'm here.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Oh, that makes me tear up.
That's beautiful.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
So many times, what we think is that we somehow have
to solve the problem or that wehave to stop them from feeling,
which, of course, is what wewant to do.
If you ever need somebody toshoulder to cry on, I'm here for
you, right?
You won't upset me if you cry.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
That's great.
I think that'll help a lot ofpeople.
So tell me a little bit moreabout finding your purpose, like
how you help people do that.
I know you talked to them aboutwhat they envision their life
being Right.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
I'm just wondering how you do that?
How do you do that?
So, first, they've re-framedtheir story as a hero's journey,
and some of the things thatthey've been challenged by and
very often the things that aremost intense for them, is
spirit's way of telling them orteaching them what they need to
(30:28):
know At least that was the casefor me is the stuff that I
struggled with and overcamebecame something I could share
with.
For other people is share that,share my journey, share my
discovery, share my process, andso that might be one way to
look at it, but sometimes Iwould just take them through a
(30:54):
going into their body andlistening to their body.
So I'll take them through aguided journey there.
And I was having a workshopwith this woman and she suddenly
came up with I want to sing.
She says oh, but I'm too old.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
I said oh, ed you're too old, as long as you can sing
.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
You may not have to become an opera singer, but you
can still sing, and that's whatshe started doing was getting
involved with groups and singing.
That's great.
You know, we put these littlerestrictions on ourselves that
we don't need to do.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Right when really it's an open world out there.
It is.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
And it doesn't necessarily have to be a career,
it can just be a sideline, aslong as you still have that
meaning and you're fulfillingyour purpose and you're feeding
your soul and you're beingcreative.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Yeah, Right, that makes sense.
I have another question aboutspirituality.
Do you find that this is a timein life where people that are
going through this grief processchange their spiritual?
Speaker 1 (32:03):
beliefs.
You know, especially if theylose an adult child, they may
lose their faith.
As I said, they can go throughthat victimization and that, by
(32:23):
the way, that's a totallyreasonable response when you
think that losing somebody isexperienced by a human being as
a threat to their survival.
Because we are social animals,that is, we are literally wired
in our brains and in our bodiesto bond with other people and we
(32:43):
actually do better as a speciesin community.
So you break a significant bondand that triggers that survival
response.
Literally, these chemicals juststart flowing in your body and
they trigger the fight, flee,freeze, and I guess the latest
one is fawn Fight, flee freeze,fawn response.
(33:04):
And you can see it, it pops outat you all the ways in which
people flee, like they starttraveling all over the world
because they're trying to escapetheir grief.
Or they get angry at people,they get angry at their family
members, or they get angry atthe doctor, or some person is
called up about the person thatthey've lost, not knowing that
(33:26):
they've lost them, and they justtake it out on that person on
the telephone.
That's the anger, and sometimesthey internalize it and that
that becomes, they internalizeand they get angry at themselves
.
Oh, I should have known better,I should have realized that
they were in danger of dying.
I should have pushed them moreto go to the doctors.
Blah, blah, blah.
(33:47):
So you have to release emotions, release emotions.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Yes, I know.
When I was right out of highschool I was in college one of
my high school friends wasmurdered by his mom's dad and I
still remember I was not soangry at his I mean, I was angry
(34:12):
at the guy who shot him but Iwas really angry at my friend,
the dime, make sense.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Yeah, yes, oh, yes, oh yes, and that's one of the
things that I work with myclients on is regrets and
resentments.
Regrets are the things that youdid or didn't do that you feel
bad about, and the resentmentsare the things that the other
person did or didn't do andleaving.
There's that abandonment, youknow, and, yeah, you're pissed
(34:37):
off.
Why did you put yourself inthat situation where you would
get shot, you know?
Didn't you know that that guywas gonna kill you, didn't you?
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Right, but it makes sense.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Yes, it totally makes sense, because that's that
anger response.
And anger is better thandespair or depression because
it's more activating and so it'ssomething you can work with to
release.
And oftentimes I encourage myclients to use gibberish to
express their anger, because andthis is something that anybody
(35:10):
can use when you're angry atsomething, if you use words, you
are recycling the anger overand over again because the brain
hears it and then the body getsupset and then you recycle it
again and again.
But if you say gibberish, youcan get the emotional energy out
without stimulating the brainto tell these stories that are
(35:32):
going to make you angry againthe brain to tell these stories
that are going to make you angryagain.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
Wow, that is fascinating.
I would feel silly doing it inthe beginning.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Well, you don't have to do it in public.
You know in the back through orin your car.
Right, that is cool, becausethe other way is, if you're
angry and I've certainlyexperienced this where you're
angry at yourself, you canreally curse yourself out and
it's terrible because you'rereally all your cells are saying
well, yeah, you don't want todo that.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Worst enemy, yeah.
So this has been fascinating.
How do people work with you?
How can they get in touch withyou?
Speaker 1 (36:12):
Well, the best way to get in touch is first to ask
yourself do you have complexgrief?
And I have a checklist orsurvey that they can take, that
they can fill it out and I willsend them an interpretation, an
assessment, and then they'll getsome follow-up emails that will
help them to start to engage inthe CERV system.
(36:33):
So they can get it by going tocomplexgriefchecklistcom.
Okay, and that will take themand they need to put it in the
not Google search, but in thebrowser so that it will take
them to the right place.
So they put it in the search.
Look at weird stuff.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
We don't want that.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
No, so just put it in the search.
Look at weird stuff.
We don't want that.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
No, so just put it in there Complexstriefchecklistcom
.
Okay, and is this something youdo?
Speaker 1 (37:05):
on Zoom with people or in person.
Yes, yes, if I actually havesomebody who's in my area, I can
work with him in person, butmostly on Zoom.
I've been doing Zoom for a longtime.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Isn't that an incredible way you can do
nowadays?
I know, I know.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Well, fortunately before COVID I had already been
on Zoom.
Oh, you were sort of a game.
I was, I was.
That's great.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
All right.
Is there anything you'd like toleave our audience with today?
Any words of wisdom?
Speaker 1 (37:36):
you'd like to leave our audience with today Any
words of wisdom?
Sure, you are essential.
Every one of you out there areessential.
You're here for a reason, andevery one of us, every one of
you, have something to give tothis world, and that is your
journey is to find out what itis and to engage with it.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
I love that.
All right.
Well, thank you so much forcoming today.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
You're so very welcome and thank you for
inviting me.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
Wow, just take a breath and sit with all of that
for a moment.
I hope you feel as moved andenergized as I do right now.
Dr Michelle's insights on grief, purpose and transformation
aren't just powerful.
They're life-changing For anyone of us who's ever struggled
with loss or wondered where tofind meaning again.
If this conversation sparkedsomething for you, please let us
(38:32):
know.
Rate and review this episode,because your feedback helps us
reach more listeners and growthis beautiful community of
courageous, open-hearted peoplejust like you.
And if someone in your lifeneeds this message maybe a
friend, a family member or thatsoul in your circle who's
walking through something heavyshare this episode with them.
(38:52):
You never know how oneheartfelt story, one shift in
perspective, can change a life.
Thank you for being here, forshowing up for yourself and
those you care about.
Remember you are essential, youare needed and your journey
matters.
Until next time, keep advancing, warrior.
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