October 20, 2025 • 47 mins
We challenge the belief that shame is useful and take aim at the “inner critic,” reframing it as an inner narcissist that feeds on your energy and keeps you small. We share a clear method to cut its supply, regulate your body, and return to authentic choice.
• redefining the inner critic as an inner narcissist
• family roles of scapegoat, golden child, and enabler
• how shame scales into workplaces and politics
• shame versus guilt and why the difference matters
• why “healthy shame” is a myth and a control tool
• the BREAK method to break the trance and disengage
• nervous system anchoring for real-time relief
• shifting from hustle and perfectionism to quiet confidence
• practical examples and outcomes after releasing shame
• resources to go deeper and start today
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Alright, warrior.
I would feel like the loudestboy in the world lives in your
head.
And sounds like the lion.
Common form dealer and founderof the common.
I didn't know that I need it.
(00:24):
My laptop.
(00:46):
And what to do the moment that avoice starts clocking?
(01:09):
We do need to do the titlethought as part of how malignant
this boy can get.
So take care of your nervoussystem and positive.
If you're ready for two o'clockand a psychic gel break, you're
in the right place.
(01:33):
Oh, you're very welcome.
It's nice to have you here.
So today we were going to talkabout the inner narcissist.
And I have to tell you, that'ssomething I have never heard of
before.
Is that something that everybodyhas?
SPEAKER_01 (01:44):
That's something that I coined myself.
So I'm not surprised you haven'theard of it before.
It's what's often referred to asthe inner critic.
And I realize that it ticksevery single box off the
narcissist, except in this case,the call is coming from inside
the house.
So inner narcissist is really,and I think we all have it,
(02:05):
particularly in Western society,which is very narcissistic and
very shame-driven.
So I think all of us have it.
It's the question to what degreewe're aware of it, first of all,
and to what degree we're awarethat it affects us.
And as you might know,narcissism itself is a behavior
(02:26):
that's widely seen and regardedas being driven by shame.
So people who are narcissistic,they're like, I don't know,
Donald Trump or whatever, he'sreactive to criticism because he
has loads of repressed shame.
Like a real confident persondoesn't need all that validation
from out the outside and doesn'tgo on the attack when somebody
(02:48):
makes a criticism of them.
That's actually a lack ofconfidence.
That's actually a lack of that'sshame.
But it's shame that people arenot in touch with, they repress
it, they push it down, and itcomes up in this narcissism.
And what I realized is that thisnarcissism, we live in a very
narcissistic world.
We worship narcissists, all ourleaders are narcissists, not
(03:09):
just in the United States,across the board, all our
governments are narcissistic.
Just some of them are a littlebit nicer, some of them are
enabling, some of them are moremalignant, some of them are more
covert.
And what I also realized is whenI started to realize how
dysfunctional and narcissisticmy family is, because I realized
that my mom ticks pretty muchall the boxes of the covert
(03:33):
narcissist.
And I also realized that I fitto a T the exact description of
a scapegoat, if you know aboutscapegoating.
Yes.
So this is something that youhave in dysfunctional and
narcissistic families, and aboutit's estimate, it's been
estimated that in the UnitedStates, about 70 to 80 percent
(03:54):
of families are dysfunctional,and that means narcissistic as
well.
And that would mean that youwould have these kind of roles
that are basically shame roles.
So they have someone who's thescapegoat, and that's basically
you're the landfill for all theunprocessed trauma and shame
that the family haven't dealtwith, it gets dumped on that
person, and then you have thegolden child.
(04:16):
The golden child is the favoriteone, the one who can do no
wrong.
It's also a shame-based role,but they don't get so much, they
don't dump that dumped thatshame as their identity.
And then there are also a fewother roles, like the one that I
talk about is the enabler.
This is often the other parentwho watches the abuse, sees the
abuse happening, and basicallylets it happen.
(04:39):
And what I realized when Istarted to realize this is what
happened at my in my family, andI had been the scapegoat.
I went from thinking that I wasthe problem and that it was just
me who had the problem to reallyrecognize that this is a systems
thing.
And also recognizing that it'snot just in my family, it's in
(05:00):
loads of people's families.
And also it fractals out intoour government environment where
groups of people together,corporations, they have these
any kind of organization whereyou have this hierarchy, you're
going to have thesedysfunctional systems for
merging, the scapegoat, theenabler, and the autocrat, the
(05:22):
one who rules the rules veryoften.
You see it in corporations, yousee it in communities, you see
it in governments, you see it inintergovernment situations as
well.
And you can see it's clay, ithappens in the collective as
well.
For example, women have beencollectively scapegoated.
So women were carrying thatcollective shame.
(05:43):
Right now, in many countries,not just in the United States,
the current scapegoat for allthe repressed shame of many
societies is the immigrants.
So we're we as a country haveall this shame that we haven't
processed because shame issomething that we can't process.
So, what do we do?
We find a group and we projectall our shame on them in an
(06:04):
attempt to get rid of it.
So you can see this happening onthe personal level, and you can
see it happening on a much widerlevel.
It's absolutely everywhere.
It's and shame is the kind ofcoding system of the structure,
if that makes sense.
The way that these systemsoperate is through shame.
(06:24):
This is how they get people tobehave the way they want.
Because if somebody is doingsomething that you don't like,
you shame them, and veryquickly, usually they stop doing
what you don't like if theyexperience that shame.
And what I've realized is thereason why that is, is because
we have internalized this systemwithin our own, within our own
(06:44):
heads.
It's what's called in psychologythe inner critic, and we're
taught that this thing is awounded child and we need to
send it love and that it'strying to protect us.
What I realized from my ownexperience and from looking at
how this thing works is that itactually ticks every single box
of the narcissist outside.
(07:06):
It's grandiose, it's shaming, itthinks it knows best, it's
entitled.
It ticks every single box in theDSM, but the call is coming from
inside the house this time.
And the funny thing is thatwe're taught to deal with this
in a very different way than weare with narcissists out there
in the world.
(07:27):
So with narcissists out there inthe world that we might
encounter, we're told to don'tengage with them, create the
separation, go no contact, don'tengage.
But with this narcissist thatwe've internalized, this
so-called inner critic, we'retold that it's trying to protect
you, that it's trying to keepyou safe, that it cares for you.
(07:47):
I say that's I call bullshit onthat because it does not care
about you.
That that's the same as sayingthe narcissist person cares
about you.
No, they're getting narcissisticsupply out of you, they're
feeding off you.
And they'll they'll kick you inthe ball, smack you in the face,
punch you, and then say they'redoing it to protect you.
They'll tell you, who are you todo that?
(08:08):
You can't be a singer, you can'tbe a yoga teacher, you can't
have that podcast.
And then they'll say, I'm justtrying to protect you.
But the truth is, that's a lie.
It's not trying to protect you,it's trying to keep you small
and trying to protect itself.
And this is a huge gaslight thatwe're taught to take this thing
to therapy and send it love.
And that's the wrong thing to dowith this thing.
(08:30):
We just need to cut it off,recognize that it's not, doesn't
have our best interest at heart,and that it's just trying to
kill us, basically.
It's trying to keep us small andtrying to keep us in a little
box, and it's putting itscomfort above ours.
So it has no power.
That's the reality.
Like narcissists, they have nopower of their own, they get all
(08:51):
their power from other people.
That's why it's callednarcissistic supply.
That's why they need otherpeople to extract their energy
from because they're kind ofempty shells.
And this so-called inner criticis exactly the same.
It's a parasite, it's got noenergy of its own, it gets all
its energy from you.
It extracts your energy bymaking you dance work, by making
(09:15):
you perform, by making you argueand defend yourself from it.
It's just taking your energy andgetting stronger and stronger.
And this thing can also getreally pretty malignant.
This is why people unalivethemselves, because this voice
can start saying there's nopoint in you being here.
And what I've uncovered, becauseI've experienced that myself,
(09:36):
I've had a very malignant voicein my ear on many occasions,
like from a young age.
And what I realized is thatwithout this inner narcissist
voice in your ear, I don'tbelieve that people would
actually go on to take thataction at all.
Because I believe that in orderto experience that, you need to
actually, no matter how badthings are on the outside, you
(09:58):
need that voice in your earsaying, you might as well not be
here in order for you to takethat action.
So this is really the key toreclaiming your freedom.
We don't need to stop otherpeople from shaming us.
We've got to disconnect fromthis inner voice that's shaming
us.
And the more we exorciseourselves of this demon, this
(10:20):
parasite, this shell of a thingthat's extracting our power, the
more we become unshamable and wereclaim our shameless and start
living our true authentic self.
Because what I've realized isthat shame is the opposite of
authenticity.
If you're carrying shame, youcannot be authentic.
(10:41):
It's impossible.
Shame inhibits authenticity.
It stops you, it tells youyou've got to hide, but you're
not good enough.
You gotta hide yourself, don'tlet them see you.
So if you're carrying shame, youyou can't be authentic.
It's impossible.
So the more we release thisshame, the more authentic we can
be, the more we can tap into whowe really are and reclaim our
(11:03):
power.
SPEAKER_00 (11:03):
This is fascinating.
And I'm trying to wrap my headaround it because you're right.
I've been taught the exactopposite that it's yourself
trying to protect you from theoutside world and keep you yes
in status quo, but to do thatfor safety measures.
But what you're saying makes alot of sense.
(11:24):
So if that's the case, how doyou get rid of that?
What is the hope for that?
SPEAKER_01 (11:31):
Well, you have got to first of all recognize, and
this is the thing, like we'retaught by society that you need
shame.
We're taught that you need shamein order to be a good girl or a
good boy.
That's the thing.
It's even linguisticallyenforced.
If we look at our language for asecond, um, you know, this word
shameless.
You have no shame, Amy.
(11:53):
You know, you need shame inorder to be a good girl.
And this is the this is whatwe're taught from a very young
age that shame is good for you,that you need to feel a certain
amount of shame in order to knowwho you are and to know what's
good.
And we're conflating, and Ireally believe that when people
do that, they conflate guiltwith shame.
(12:13):
And guilt and shame are verydifferent things.
Guilt is the recognition thatI've done something wrong and
feeling bad because of that, andshame is the feeling that I am
bad, so it's reallyidentity-driven.
But the thing is, the evidencedoesn't stack up with what we're
being taught because when peopleexperience shame, they're
(12:33):
actually less inclined to changetheir behavior and modify their
behavior, not more.
In the moment, yes, it's veryeffective.
If there's a child here and he'sbother bothering me and wanting
to shut up, I'll shame him.
It'll work very quickly, 99times out of 100.
But in the long term, in themedium to long term, absolutely
ineffective because what happenswith shame is you contract in on
(12:57):
yourself, you become defensive.
It puts you into survival modelike no other emotion.
And that's why I've identifiedthat shame, it's not a normal
emotion at all.
Shame is more than just thatbelief that I'm bad.
It's that those beliefs that I'mbad, there's something wrong
with me, I'm defective, areactually downstream from what
(13:19):
shame is, first of all, becauseshame is a toxic cocktail of a
bunch of different things: self-loathing, fear of your (13:23):
undefined
power, disgust, anger towardsthe self.
It's all of these things, like atoxic cocktail of emotions that
are turned against the self, andthese feelings like I am bad,
I'm defective, there's somethingwrong with me.
That stems from that.
(13:44):
So we're taught that shame,we're taught that shame is good
for you, that we need a bit ofshame, but this doesn't make any
sense.
It's an attack on our ownidentity, it's an attack on who
we are.
How can this be good for us?
The only thing that shame isgood for is the people that want
to keep us under control andkeep us small.
That's it.
Shame is not like any otheremotion.
(14:05):
If we look at anger, if we lookat fear, if we look like anger,
those two, for example.
So anger, somebody's crossed myboundary.
I have to say no.
Anger is positive then in thatcase.
Same with fear.
I get really afraid.
There's a car coming, I need torun off the road because fear is
positive there.
(14:25):
But shame, it has no positivefunction.
The only function of shame is tomanipulate or to be manipulated,
to keep you small, to keep youin your little box, to stay in
your spot and don't move anddon't try to be anything else.
That's all that shame is goodfor.
Shame is good for the people whoare trying people on the top who
are trying to keep everyone elsedown.
(14:45):
And shame is very effective atthat.
But it's not beneficial for,like I said, changing behavior,
remedying behavior, all of thesethings.
Shame actually shuts downempathy, you know, and this
thing, this why we're kind ofgaslit by this belief that you
even Brene Brown, who talks alot about shame, says that if
you don't experience shame, thatwould mean you're a psychopath.
(15:09):
And I just really disagree withthat perspective.
This just shows how normalizedshame has become in our society.
And people like John Bradchow,who wrote a book about shame as
well the years ago, talks abouttoxic shame, but he also talks
about healthy shame.
And this is where I divergedfrom their perspective because
(15:29):
from my from what I can see,shame is always bad.
It has no positive functionexcept to control, to
manipulate, to keep peoplesmall, to keep people in their
little box, and to not try to beto keep people inauthentic, to
keep people under someone else'sthumb.
That's all shame is good for.
So this idea when people talkabout healthy shame, I feel like
(15:53):
these people are talking frominside the shame cage where
shame is normalized and wherethey've accepted that shame is
just what it is to be human.
I totally contest that.
Shame really was invented byhierarchical societies as a mean
mechanism of control.
And particularly theindividualized form of shame
(16:14):
that we see in the Westernworld, this idea that I'm a
sinner and that I have toforgive.
This is a very European ideathat was really disseminated and
brought up to all the world,loads of parts, a lot of parts
in the world through theCatholic Church, through
Christianity.
And if you just think about thatidea that of original sin, I'm a
(16:35):
sinner and I have to forgive,that's a double bind that you
can never get out of.
And that's like serious, you arejust a sinner.
There's nothing you can do.
Now, before Christianity came,for example, in Ireland and
other places, other hierarchicalsocieties, tribal societies, you
you had shame as well.
And you see that in Japan andChina, but it's a collectivist
(16:58):
shame.
I call it collectivist shame asopposed to the individualist
shame that we see in the West.
The collectivist shame is morelike the honor shame.
So you do something, you bringdishonor on the family, you're
shamed for that.
But that is that's kind of alittle bit different.
It's maybe tight slightly lesscorrosive, although it is very
damaging and it does lead topeople analyzing themselves and
(17:21):
suicides as well, because shameis always it always does that.
But it's still by an actionsomething that you've done.
So there is in theory thepossibility of going back.
It's not who you are as a personthat's sinful, it's something
that you've done that'sshameful, and you can
potentially go back and makethings right.
(17:41):
But with this idea of originalsin, no such redemption is
possible because you're just asinner, you're just ashamed of a
of the because you're human.
So that I feel is even morecorrosive and damaging than the
kind of Asian idea of shame orthe collectivist idea of shame
(18:03):
that we see out there.
SPEAKER_00 (18:05):
Yeah, I would have to agree with you because I'm
thinking as you're talking aboutthis, that a small child has no
shame in the beginning untilit's taught to them.
So you don't come into the worldthat way.
SPEAKER_01 (18:18):
I agree with you, but a lot of researchers they
point to children who are likehiding and stuff like that and
say that's shame.
I really feel that's aprojection.
Babies, like you say, that areborn, they experience they're
completely shameless.
They and when I say shameless, Imean it in the positive sense of
the world.
They have no shame.
(18:38):
They have no shame, they'recompletely authentic.
If they're hungry, they cry.
If they need something, theycry.
They don't repress their needs.
And that's what shame teaches usto do.
It teaches you to repress yourneeds, that you're not good
enough that your needs aren't asimportant as someone else's.
And when children hide, they're,I don't think it's all
necessarily shame.
(18:59):
I think that's a projection fromus as a society because we are
so shame-infused that we projectit everywhere.
And children, obviously, theyare taught shame.
They're taught shame.
I mean, they're told you have noshame.
They're shamed all the time as away to get them to behave the
way they want.
So we're taught this is the waywe're we make people do what we
(19:20):
want.
This is how we're told what todo through shaming.
So, of course, they learn shame,but I don't believe that it's
that it's inherent to what it isto be human.
I believe this is an idea thatcomes through hierarchical
societies and that even in thecollectivist form, again, it's
always about control and it'salways the people on the top
that they get to control.
(19:41):
It's not really caring for theperson that's shamed, it's about
the person doing the shaming.
Like I said, if I'm shaming achild here, um, I might tell
myself, oh, I'm doing it for hisown good.
I want to keep him safe, but no,I'm doing it for my own comfort.
And when I I'm that might be alie that I tell myself that I'm
doing it for his own good, butreally my comfort is the
(20:04):
priority.
And that's always the case withshame.
The shamer is the person whotakes priority.
So it's an egotistical, it'salways a manipulation when you
shame someone.
SPEAKER_00 (20:15):
Yeah, I'm sitting here thinking about my own
parenting that I've done with mychildren, and I have definitely
used shame thinking that I wasdoing the right thing, but
looking back on it, you'reright, it was for my comfort.
So I can see that.
Tell me a little bit about oncewe recognize that in ourselves,
(20:36):
how do we eliminate it?
SPEAKER_01 (20:38):
Yes.
Well, the first thing is toreally recognize that shame is
not positive, that it never hasa positive function.
That's really important.
Because if you don't recognizethat, you're not going to be
able to draw the line in thesound.
But I do have a system that Iteach people to really start
breaking up with shame becauseshame is a collective trance
(21:02):
that we're all under.
And like I said, I believe thatshame is the number one reason
why we can't be authentic, whywe can't succeed in the world
and scarcity and things likethat.
These are like the foot soldiersof shame.
Shame says you're not goodenough, and scarcity enforces
our scarcity enforces that idea.
(21:22):
You don't have enough, you can'thave that, you've too little.
It keeps you small, basically.
So that's the only thing shameis good for.
So you've really got torecognize that shame has no
positive function, that itdoesn't make you a better
person.
That's really important.
That's the foundation piece toreally start letting go of
shame.
Because while you're stillholding on to that illusion,
(21:44):
you're gonna still think thatwhen you're shaming yourself or
when someone that it's can bebeneficial for making you a
better person.
And this is the thing that Ihave such a problem with that
we're collectively taughtculturally, like even if you
look at the hustle culture,shame affects women immensely
because you know, all the thingslike self-sabotage,
procrastination, peoplepleasing, imposter syndrome,
(22:08):
these are all shame at the root.
Shame is the root cause, andthese are symptoms of shame.
Men don't experience impostersyndrome so much, but if you
look at the whole kind of hustleculture, you've got to fight,
you gotta do it, you gotta showthem.
This is again very shaming.
And the reason why they do it isbecause it looks good in the
moment.
And some therapists use shame,some coaches use shame because
(22:31):
it looks, it's fast, it'seffective, it looks very
impressive in the moment, but ithas little to no medium to long
term efficacy.
It's it's short term and it'salways toxic, it always leaves
that toxic imprint becauseyou're attacking the person
rather than attacking the actionthat they took.
(22:51):
So it's very different fromguilt.
Guilt is that belief that I'vedone something bad, and shame is
that I am bad.
So when we feel I am bad, it'slike, how do you even start to
change your behavior?
It, like I said, it impedes thatbehavior change because it makes
you feel it puts you in survivalmode, basically, obviously,
because your identity is beingattacked, and you're probably
(23:14):
that voice in your head isshaming you, and it's like, oh,
you're not good enough, you'vegot to hide, you've got to get
this is why people in cults getdefensive, because again, cults
are narcissistic systems, sothey have that exact same format
and utilize shame.
This is why people in cults,when you critique anything about
(23:35):
it, they feel personallyattacked and may even punch you
in the face because theyexperience that criticism as an
attack on themselves.
So this is what shame does.
And shame, like if we look atwhat's happening right now in
the world, when people have beenscapegoated, for example, they
have all this shame that theycan't digest.
(23:57):
And there are two things thatyou can do with it.
You can internalize the shameand put it against yourself and
become an alcoholic or an addictor kill yourself, or you can
find someone, another target,find another scapegoat.
This is why people who've beenabused or sexually abused, they
often go on to be abusers ofthemselves because they're
(24:17):
carrying all this shame.
And the way to get it to giveyourself some relief is to find
someone else to be the victim tothat, find another scapegoat,
basically.
And you can see that happeningin the collective right now.
Israel, former scapegoat, formergolden child, autocrat now in
their own right, and now theyfound their own scapegoat in the
(24:40):
Palestinians and are basicallyreenacting history now and
projecting all their shame onthem and trying to kill their
shame by committing genocide.
So this is shame is a veryserious thing.
It's not a it's not a joke, it'snever beneficial, and yet we're
taught in society that it's goodfor you.
(25:00):
So you've got to recognize thatit's never ever good for you,
and that it's actually it'spoison.
It's poison, toxic, always, evena little bit, always toxic.
So that's important.
I can't stress that enough, butI know I've stressed it a lot.
But then getting on to theacronym that I have is BRIKE,
B-R-E-A-K.
(25:22):
So when shame strikes, ithijacks your body.
It's like I don't know if you'vehad a shame attack, but make can
make you go feel really hot.
It can make you contract in yourbody.
You want to disappear, all thatself-loathing.
So the first thing you want todo is be break the trance,
recognize that this isn't yourvoice, it's a spell, it's a
(25:43):
pattern, it's a trance state.
So you've got to catch it,interrupt it, and name it.
Recognize that, name it.
This is a trance.
You don't argue with the trance,you just name it, and that
automatically starts to disruptthe loop.
So then you go on to R, which isimportant.
This is refuse to engage becausewhen shame comes along, we want
(26:04):
to fight with it, we want totell it's wrong.
We want to so Dr.
Ramani, who's the expert innarcissists out there in the
world, she talks about deep.
Don't defend, don't engage,don't explain, and don't
personalize.
And we've got to do exactly thatwith this voice in our head.
So don't try to defend yourselfif it says you've got a big nose
or you're too fat or you'relooking ugly today, or whatever
(26:27):
the BS or you've got cellulite,whatever the BS it's spouting,
don't try to defend yourself,don't engage or explain or make
just say not today.
You've got to just cut it offbecause it's a shell, it's got
no power without you.
Then the third one is E exposethe lie.
This means call out theshame-based programming.
(26:49):
So if it's telling you thatyou've got too many wrinkles or
you've got a fat ass or whateverit is, that's not that's not
true.
That's compared to what, youknow, this is always about
control.
This is not truth, this is notyour story, and really speaking
that truth again disarms itspower.
So that's E.
Then you go on to A.
(27:10):
Like I said, shame takes you outof your body, it hijacks you and
puts you into survival mode.
So you need to anchor in truth.
That means come back to yourbody, feel your breath, plant
your feet, say your name and theyear, and really remind your
nervous system.
You can even touch yourself, youknow, I'm soothe yourself like
(27:32):
this.
I'm safe, I'm sovereign, I'mhere.
And then finally, Kay, kick itout.
You can physically stomp it out,shake it out, say it aloud.
This is not mine.
And you do not have to take theshame.
Shame is a choice, it's anunconscious choice.
We need to have this innernarcissist in our ear agreeing
(27:54):
with it in order to experienceshame.
I was talking to someone in apodcast a few weeks ago.
They were talking about theiraunt when she was a child, she
was eating ice cream, but shewas a little bit of a plump
plump child, and she was withher friend, and some adult went
up to her and said, Youshouldn't be eating that ice
cream, you'll get fat.
And these girls they could haveexperienced so much shame,
(28:15):
dropped their ice cream andleft.
They laughed in his face, theylaughed in his face and
continued eating the ice cream.
So, this is the thing (28:23):
you do not have to engage with shame
when someone tries to shame you,or when the voice in your head
or that shame entity tries toshame you, you do not have to
take it.
You dis that is not you, andthat's important, that's why I
call it the inner narcissist.
We're taught that this thing isa wounded child, that it's you.
(28:46):
I'm telling myself that I'mstupid.
No, it's not you, it's yournarcissist, it's this parasite
that you've been carryingaround, and that really helps
you take back your power fromit.
But you never have to letyourself be shamed.
What I'm saying is that shame isa habit, it's an addiction that
we as a society have.
It's an addiction, we'readdicted to shame.
(29:07):
And we need to unaddictourselves collectively, but we
can start individually, andthat's a very that's a power
move because, like I said, themore we exercise this shame
demon, the more we immunizeourselves from shame.
We become more and moreshameless, we become unshamable,
and that means we become moreauthentic, we become more true
(29:28):
to us ourselves, we stand in ourtruth, nobody can push us around
and manipulate us anymore.
We become that light for otherpeople, and there are very few
people out there in the worldwho are living without shame in
the true meaning of the word.
SPEAKER_00 (29:42):
Yeah, I gotta tell you, I love this because it
gives more hope, if you ask me,that you could get rid of that
because it's not part of you,it's yeah, its own being.
So, yeah, that's me.
Do you know?
Notice that when people try togo through this, does it fight
(30:03):
back harder to stay alive?
You know, that inner narcissistwhen you first start trying to
get rid of it?
Well, it's a practice, I'll behonest.
SPEAKER_01 (30:11):
It's a simple process.
But if you've been practicingshame and feeding it, feeding
this beast or whatever you wantto call it, this parasite for
30, 40, 50 years, it's got a bitof momentum, right?
So you've got to really make adecision.
That's really what it is.
You've got to make a decision.
It's not good for me.
(30:32):
I'm not doing this anymore.
That's important.
But without that decision,nothing is going to work.
So you've got to make thatdecision for yourself and decide
that you want to live withoutshame.
And that's it's kind of radicalbecause we're, like I said,
we're taught everywhere thatshame is good for you, that it
keeps you being a good person.
And what I'm saying is the exactopposite, it's 180 degrees from
(30:56):
that.
I'm saying shame is the root ofall our I can't say all our
problems, because someone isgoing to say, what about this?
But so many of the problems,mental health issues, issues in
the world, we can trace themback to shame.
Shame as the originator, ourmajor driver of this
dysfunction.
So we need to cut this off.
(31:18):
This is no good for us, and thisis bad for us as human beings
and a society.
Living from shame, it's onlygood for the people who want to
keep us down and the people atthe top.
When because when we're livingout of shame, we feel small, we
feel powerless, we feel like wecan't, we feel helpless, we feel
hopeless, and we don't doanything to change our
(31:39):
situation.
That's what that's what shamedoes.
It puts you into freeze mode.
How is that help you change yourbehavior?
It makes no sense.
But like I said, it's becauseshame has been so normalized as
a as a as particularly inWestern culture, that it's been
normalized, and the people justsee it as something that of what
part of what it is to be human.
(32:01):
And I've realized that no, no,shame has no positive function.
You don't need it, not ever, noteven a little bit, not even
children, never.
You don't need shame to be agood person.
Shame makes you worse personevery single time.
SPEAKER_00 (32:17):
So I'm wondering, you've got this process you call
it break, right?
Yeah, what happens to someonewhen they're going through this?
Have you actually done this withyourself and done this with
others?
SPEAKER_01 (32:31):
Yes, yeah, I have done it with myself and done it
with others.
And yeah, it's really empoweringbecause in the moment when shame
might come and tempt you, but inthe moment you say, No, not
today, bitch.
Not today.
And you when you reallyrecognize that this is not your
protector, that it's not comingto help you, that it has zero
(32:53):
benefit whatsoever.
And this is the key, becausewe've been all brainwashed to
think that shame will make youbetter, or if you beat yourself
up enough and whip yourself onthe back, this is the kind of
Christian penance thing.
We've all been taught that if webeat ourselves up enough, that
we'll become better.
And it's the actually theopposite is true.
If you're training dogs, it doeswork.
(33:14):
If you're training animals, itdoes work to use torture, but
much better to use.
I mean, it's much better to usethe carrot and not the stick.
But we've been taught this way.
And we need to, we're under thistrance that this is the only
way.
And if we do something bad, Iwas talking to someone the other
day, and he was taught this ishe was told by his therapist
(33:35):
that it's good that you feelshame because you've done so
many bad things.
So this is the conventionalwisdom out there that you need
shame if you've done bad thingsin your life.
Shame is seen as a moralcompass.
And I completely contest that.
I think it's absolutely a flawedpremise.
That's what it is.
(33:55):
So it's a flawed premise, it'scoming from a completely flawed
premise, and it'scounterproductive in helping
people to transform, torecognize that they've made
mistakes, as we all have, andwe've all done bad things to
other people, we've all hurtother people, but we don't need
shame to remedy those mistakes.
And this is the kind of this iswhat's being pointed to by
(34:18):
people who defend shame.
They're saying that you needshame in order to recognize that
you've done something bad.
You don't.
You need more empathy.
That they say that you needshame to know that you're not
God.
You don't.
That's humility.
Shame doesn't do that.
Shame just makes you shrink upinto little ball and die.
We don't need shame for never.
(34:39):
It's never beneficial, but it'sjust been so normalized that
even therapists and counselorsand coaches talk about it as if
it's some kind of moral compasswhen that is a complete
fabrication of our society,always designed to manipulate
people and keep people small.
SPEAKER_00 (34:57):
Wow, I gotta tell you, like I said, I'd never
heard of this before, but I'mgetting my head wrapped around
it, and I totally agree withwhat you're saying.
I wonder, people that go throughthis, can you tell me about the
kind of life they have once theyhave battled this shame and this
(35:17):
inner narcissist, and they'vecome to a place where they're
not fighting with it anymore?
How is life different?
SPEAKER_01 (35:26):
Well, you become empowered, so you go from like
totally disempowered by beingcontrolled by this voice, by
feeling like, oh my god, I can'tpick up the phone, I can't do
this thing, by feeling helplesswithin your own life to feeling
empowered.
And when you address the shame,then there can be like other
things like scarcity.
It's like the enforcer of shame.
(35:48):
So that can also be a piecethat's left after you address
these main shame pieces.
But yeah, the more you eliminateshame, the more you can manifest
the life that you want.
Because shame is basically ananchor that keeps you, it's very
low vibration, it keeps youstuck.
This is why people, when they'retrying to visualize and do
(36:08):
affirmations, a lot of timesthey don't get the results they
want.
Oftentimes because they'recarrying so much shame that says
you don't deserve it or youcan't have it, or you know, that
that cocktail of stuff that Italked about, even if they're
not consciously aware of it.
And lots of us are carryingshame and we're not consciously
(36:29):
tuned into it, but it's there inyour energy and it's affecting
you, even if if you don't knowit's there.
One example of a lady that I'veworked with, she's a personal
trainer, and she was reallystruggling to get people into
her program and to say yes toher, and they were arguing with
her on the price constantly.
After I worked with her on theseissues, she said she found it so
(36:53):
easy to get people in.
She was really struggling, andshe went from a place where
people were trying to negotiatewith her on price, where not one
person were just saying yeswithout trying to negotiate with
her.
And she was using the exact samescript.
I didn't change her script onebit.
She was using the same script,but the difference was she was
(37:14):
showing up as a differentperson, she was showing up more
confident in herself becausetrue confidence, again, it's the
opposite of shame.
You can't experience shame andexperience true confidence.
You can experience false pride,which is what narcissists
experience.
That's why they get triggeredand then they get angry and
defensive when someone triggersshame because they're it's all
(37:35):
built on um, it's all built onsand, the image that they've
created, or the self-imagethey've created, the pride, the
false pride.
But real confidence isn't likethat.
Real confidence is quiet.
Real confidence, I don't need toprove anything to you.
No, I I know I'm great.
I don't need to tell you or talkto you about how great you feel
that you you it's in my energy.
(37:57):
You don't, I don't need to goand brag about it.
That's a sign of a lack ofconfidence.
So you go from that to fromtrying really hard from
struggling to surrendering toreally starting to trust
yourself and to let go of and tostart just floating and being
receiving things in life ratherthan feeling like you have to
(38:17):
struggle and fight for things.
So there's a lot more ease,there's a lot more flow, there's
a lot more trust in yourself andin other people, and just
generally feeling lighter, noteven no matter what's going on,
and life isn't perfect, life hasups and downs, no matter if you
have shame for a heavy dose ofshame or not, but you deal with
(38:40):
it in a different way, you dealwith it in a confident manner.
So instead of beating yourselfup, oh, why woe is me?
Why is this happening to me?
And staying in that hole fordays, weeks, months, years going
into depression.
I've been depressed, I knowabout this from personal
experience.
Shame is a massive driver againof depression.
(39:01):
I don't think I certainlycouldn't have been depressed
without the shame that wasdriving it.
So yeah, when you're free ofshame, you just don't care what
anyone else thinks.
You're just living for yourself,you're free.
It's really the only the onlyway that you can be free when
you're free of shame.
You don't care what other peoplethink of you.
(39:21):
And again, it's a process, it'syou're leaning into this every
day.
So you're releasing layers ofshame, and maybe something will
happen, and you might you feelbut you'll recognize the shame
and you'll be able to releaseit.
Shame will never have the samehold on you that it used to
have, you know, back in the daywhere shame basically ruled your
life.
So it's about this is abouttaking back your power wholly
(39:44):
and completely from shame,because we're all being
manipulated by shame.
We think we're free, but we'reoperating out of trauma
responses.
We think we're making choices,but if we if you're operating
out from shame or from trauma,and again, shame is one of the
main things that keeps traumagoing down through generations,
(40:05):
are why animals experiencetrauma, but they're not still
thinking about it and wonderingabout it 20 years later.
Human beings do, and thedifference is shame is a huge
driver of that.
So without shame, we won't holdon to things so much, we won't
take things personally.
If people reject project shameon us, we'll be like, return to
(40:28):
sender.
I'm not taking that.
You can take your gift back, andthis is the real power move in
all of this.
It's quiet, but it is superpowerful.
It's the it's the ultimate powermove, maybe not a flex because
other people aren't necessarilyseeing it, but people will
notice it in your energy 100%.
You will be a different person.
SPEAKER_00 (40:48):
That sounds wonderful to have that new
energy and that new confidenceand all of that.
And honestly, you explain thisso well.
Do you have a book or anythingout there?
SPEAKER_01 (40:58):
Yeah, the book is something that I do have a book
in my head, but at the moment Ihave a Substack, so I've been
writing a lot on Substack.
So you can find me there, traumamatrix.substack.com.
So that's where you can find mywritings about shame.
And yeah, really feel like thisif people, if we as a society
(41:19):
take this on board and step outof shame, this can be a massive
game changer, not just forindividuals like you and me, but
for us as a collective.
SPEAKER_00 (41:29):
Definitely.
I can see it making a hugedifference in how everything's
run.
So if someone wants to work withyou, how can they find you other
than Substack?
SPEAKER_01 (41:40):
Yeah, you can reach out to me on my socials.
I'm trauma.matrix on Instagramand everywhere on Facebook.
Um I also have a free gift foryou guys, so that's probably a
great place to start.
The free gift is five signs thatit's time to break up with your
inner narcissist.
So this is for people who arelistening and thinking, that's
(42:00):
me.
I have that going on.
Maybe I need to do somethingabout it.
Maybe you're raising your hand.
So this gives you five classicsigns that this narcissist is
really ruling your life andyou're not free.
And also gives you tools andstrategies to start taking your
taking back your power from it.
But really, the first step isawareness.
(42:21):
And if you've been woken up bythis conversation today, I
encourage you to do that becauseI mean it's all very well to
listen to good conversations,but you've got to act on that if
you really want, if you'rereally serious about changing
your life.
And this is a free step for you.
It's a free gift, so definitelycheck that out.
You can find it at tinyurl.comforward slash not today narc
(42:46):
N-A-R-C.
Not today narc.
SPEAKER_00 (42:48):
And I will put that in the show notes too, so
everybody can just find iteasily.
And I gotta tell you, I'm gonnabe looking at it because this
has totally woke me up, and Itotally am sitting here
thinking, oh my gosh, that's whyI'm not getting ahead with the
things I want to move aheadwith, is that shame is holding
me back.
So yeah, I'll be getting it.
SPEAKER_01 (43:08):
Shame is the root of perfectionism, procrastination,
all that stuff.
These are symptoms of shame.
And like, why it why if you'rejust trying to address the
symptoms, it's like you're justplaying whack-a-mole with a
bunch of symptoms.
Shame is the root cause.
So we've got to go to the we'vegot to go to the cause if we're
serious about transforming thesethings.
SPEAKER_00 (43:27):
I'm with you, and I totally appreciate you coming on
today, Emma, and letting us allin on this because I think this
needs to, I don't know if youneed to do a TEDx talk or what
you need to do, but everybodyneeds to hear this.
So thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (43:42):
Yeah, I think it's a it's an empowering message.
It's not shaming, it's givingpeople back their power.
SPEAKER_00 (43:48):
Yeah, definitely.
I love that.
All right, is there anythingthat you'd like to leave our
audience with today, other thanthis wonderful gift?
Any last words?
SPEAKER_01 (43:58):
Well, I would say stop letting shame rule your
life and take back your power.
Yeah, you can do it, you deserveit.
It's you weren't born for this.
You weren't born to be a slaveof shame.
And it's nothing without you.
The that that inner narcissist,it's got nothing.
It's an empty, it's a parasite.
It you don't stop coddling it,stop sending it love, stop
(44:21):
taking it to therapy and takeback your power.
I love that.
SPEAKER_00 (44:26):
All right, thank you, Emma.
Thank you.
If this conversation litssomething up for you, here are
your next brave steps.
Grab Emma's free guide, fivesigns you need to break up with
your inner gnar.
The link in the show notes.
Go print it, highlight it, talkback to that voice, and take
your power back.
(44:47):
Follow Emma on Instagram andFacebook at TomaMaker.
And read her writing onFacebook, which I've linked in
the notes.
Share this episode with someonewho's tired of the people.
Put in the same companytogether.
And if you want to get some helpmethod, you can always find the
(45:11):
football for the first method.
Remember, the same boy is afancy.
It has no power without words.
Name it, say nothing.
Fill your feet, say your name,every year, and come back to
(45:32):
you.
Alright, warrior.
I would feel like the loudestboy in the world lives in your
head.
And sounds like the lion.
Common form dealer and founderof the common.
I didn't know that I need it.
(00:24):
My laptop.
(00:46):
And what to do the moment that avoice starts clocking?
(01:09):
We do need to do the titlethought as part of how malignant
this boy can get.
So take care of your nervoussystem and positive.
If you're ready for two o'clockand a psychic gel break, you're
in the right place.
(01:33):
Oh, you're very welcome.
It's nice to have you here.
So today we were going to talkabout the inner narcissist.
And I have to tell you, that'ssomething I have never heard of
before.
Is that something that everybodyhas?
SPEAKER_01 (01:44):
That's something that I coined myself.
So I'm not surprised you haven'theard of it before.
It's what's often referred to asthe inner critic.
And I realize that it ticksevery single box off the
narcissist, except in this case,the call is coming from inside
the house.
So inner narcissist is really,and I think we all have it,
(02:05):
particularly in Western society,which is very narcissistic and
very shame-driven.
So I think all of us have it.
It's the question to what degreewe're aware of it, first of all,
and to what degree we're awarethat it affects us.
And as you might know,narcissism itself is a behavior
(02:26):
that's widely seen and regardedas being driven by shame.
So people who are narcissistic,they're like, I don't know,
Donald Trump or whatever, he'sreactive to criticism because he
has loads of repressed shame.
Like a real confident persondoesn't need all that validation
from out the outside and doesn'tgo on the attack when somebody
(02:48):
makes a criticism of them.
That's actually a lack ofconfidence.
That's actually a lack of that'sshame.
But it's shame that people arenot in touch with, they repress
it, they push it down, and itcomes up in this narcissism.
And what I realized is that thisnarcissism, we live in a very
narcissistic world.
We worship narcissists, all ourleaders are narcissists, not
(03:09):
just in the United States,across the board, all our
governments are narcissistic.
Just some of them are a littlebit nicer, some of them are
enabling, some of them are moremalignant, some of them are more
covert.
And what I also realized is whenI started to realize how
dysfunctional and narcissisticmy family is, because I realized
that my mom ticks pretty muchall the boxes of the covert
(03:33):
narcissist.
And I also realized that I fitto a T the exact description of
a scapegoat, if you know aboutscapegoating.
Yes.
So this is something that youhave in dysfunctional and
narcissistic families, and aboutit's estimate, it's been
estimated that in the UnitedStates, about 70 to 80 percent
(03:54):
of families are dysfunctional,and that means narcissistic as
well.
And that would mean that youwould have these kind of roles
that are basically shame roles.
So they have someone who's thescapegoat, and that's basically
you're the landfill for all theunprocessed trauma and shame
that the family haven't dealtwith, it gets dumped on that
person, and then you have thegolden child.
(04:16):
The golden child is the favoriteone, the one who can do no
wrong.
It's also a shame-based role,but they don't get so much, they
don't dump that dumped thatshame as their identity.
And then there are also a fewother roles, like the one that I
talk about is the enabler.
This is often the other parentwho watches the abuse, sees the
abuse happening, and basicallylets it happen.
(04:39):
And what I realized when Istarted to realize this is what
happened at my in my family, andI had been the scapegoat.
I went from thinking that I wasthe problem and that it was just
me who had the problem to reallyrecognize that this is a systems
thing.
And also recognizing that it'snot just in my family, it's in
(05:00):
loads of people's families.
And also it fractals out intoour government environment where
groups of people together,corporations, they have these
any kind of organization whereyou have this hierarchy, you're
going to have thesedysfunctional systems for
merging, the scapegoat, theenabler, and the autocrat, the
(05:22):
one who rules the rules veryoften.
You see it in corporations, yousee it in communities, you see
it in governments, you see it inintergovernment situations as
well.
And you can see it's clay, ithappens in the collective as
well.
For example, women have beencollectively scapegoated.
So women were carrying thatcollective shame.
(05:43):
Right now, in many countries,not just in the United States,
the current scapegoat for allthe repressed shame of many
societies is the immigrants.
So we're we as a country haveall this shame that we haven't
processed because shame issomething that we can't process.
So, what do we do?
We find a group and we projectall our shame on them in an
(06:04):
attempt to get rid of it.
So you can see this happening onthe personal level, and you can
see it happening on a much widerlevel.
It's absolutely everywhere.
It's and shame is the kind ofcoding system of the structure,
if that makes sense.
The way that these systemsoperate is through shame.
(06:24):
This is how they get people tobehave the way they want.
Because if somebody is doingsomething that you don't like,
you shame them, and veryquickly, usually they stop doing
what you don't like if theyexperience that shame.
And what I've realized is thereason why that is, is because
we have internalized this systemwithin our own, within our own
(06:44):
heads.
It's what's called in psychologythe inner critic, and we're
taught that this thing is awounded child and we need to
send it love and that it'strying to protect us.
What I realized from my ownexperience and from looking at
how this thing works is that itactually ticks every single box
of the narcissist outside.
(07:06):
It's grandiose, it's shaming, itthinks it knows best, it's
entitled.
It ticks every single box in theDSM, but the call is coming from
inside the house this time.
And the funny thing is thatwe're taught to deal with this
in a very different way than weare with narcissists out there
in the world.
(07:27):
So with narcissists out there inthe world that we might
encounter, we're told to don'tengage with them, create the
separation, go no contact, don'tengage.
But with this narcissist thatwe've internalized, this
so-called inner critic, we'retold that it's trying to protect
you, that it's trying to keepyou safe, that it cares for you.
(07:47):
I say that's I call bullshit onthat because it does not care
about you.
That that's the same as sayingthe narcissist person cares
about you.
No, they're getting narcissisticsupply out of you, they're
feeding off you.
And they'll they'll kick you inthe ball, smack you in the face,
punch you, and then say they'redoing it to protect you.
They'll tell you, who are you todo that?
(08:08):
You can't be a singer, you can'tbe a yoga teacher, you can't
have that podcast.
And then they'll say, I'm justtrying to protect you.
But the truth is, that's a lie.
It's not trying to protect you,it's trying to keep you small
and trying to protect itself.
And this is a huge gaslight thatwe're taught to take this thing
to therapy and send it love.
And that's the wrong thing to dowith this thing.
(08:30):
We just need to cut it off,recognize that it's not, doesn't
have our best interest at heart,and that it's just trying to
kill us, basically.
It's trying to keep us small andtrying to keep us in a little
box, and it's putting itscomfort above ours.
So it has no power.
That's the reality.
Like narcissists, they have nopower of their own, they get all
(08:51):
their power from other people.
That's why it's callednarcissistic supply.
That's why they need otherpeople to extract their energy
from because they're kind ofempty shells.
And this so-called inner criticis exactly the same.
It's a parasite, it's got noenergy of its own, it gets all
its energy from you.
It extracts your energy bymaking you dance work, by making
(09:15):
you perform, by making you argueand defend yourself from it.
It's just taking your energy andgetting stronger and stronger.
And this thing can also getreally pretty malignant.
This is why people unalivethemselves, because this voice
can start saying there's nopoint in you being here.
And what I've uncovered, becauseI've experienced that myself,
(09:36):
I've had a very malignant voicein my ear on many occasions,
like from a young age.
And what I realized is thatwithout this inner narcissist
voice in your ear, I don'tbelieve that people would
actually go on to take thataction at all.
Because I believe that in orderto experience that, you need to
actually, no matter how badthings are on the outside, you
(09:58):
need that voice in your earsaying, you might as well not be
here in order for you to takethat action.
So this is really the key toreclaiming your freedom.
We don't need to stop otherpeople from shaming us.
We've got to disconnect fromthis inner voice that's shaming
us.
And the more we exorciseourselves of this demon, this
(10:20):
parasite, this shell of a thingthat's extracting our power, the
more we become unshamable and wereclaim our shameless and start
living our true authentic self.
Because what I've realized isthat shame is the opposite of
authenticity.
If you're carrying shame, youcannot be authentic.
(10:41):
It's impossible.
Shame inhibits authenticity.
It stops you, it tells youyou've got to hide, but you're
not good enough.
You gotta hide yourself, don'tlet them see you.
So if you're carrying shame, youyou can't be authentic.
It's impossible.
So the more we release thisshame, the more authentic we can
be, the more we can tap into whowe really are and reclaim our
(11:03):
power.
SPEAKER_00 (11:03):
This is fascinating.
And I'm trying to wrap my headaround it because you're right.
I've been taught the exactopposite that it's yourself
trying to protect you from theoutside world and keep you yes
in status quo, but to do thatfor safety measures.
But what you're saying makes alot of sense.
(11:24):
So if that's the case, how doyou get rid of that?
What is the hope for that?
SPEAKER_01 (11:31):
Well, you have got to first of all recognize, and
this is the thing, like we'retaught by society that you need
shame.
We're taught that you need shamein order to be a good girl or a
good boy.
That's the thing.
It's even linguisticallyenforced.
If we look at our language for asecond, um, you know, this word
shameless.
You have no shame, Amy.
(11:53):
You know, you need shame inorder to be a good girl.
And this is the this is whatwe're taught from a very young
age that shame is good for you,that you need to feel a certain
amount of shame in order to knowwho you are and to know what's
good.
And we're conflating, and Ireally believe that when people
do that, they conflate guiltwith shame.
(12:13):
And guilt and shame are verydifferent things.
Guilt is the recognition thatI've done something wrong and
feeling bad because of that, andshame is the feeling that I am
bad, so it's reallyidentity-driven.
But the thing is, the evidencedoesn't stack up with what we're
being taught because when peopleexperience shame, they're
(12:33):
actually less inclined to changetheir behavior and modify their
behavior, not more.
In the moment, yes, it's veryeffective.
If there's a child here and he'sbother bothering me and wanting
to shut up, I'll shame him.
It'll work very quickly, 99times out of 100.
But in the long term, in themedium to long term, absolutely
ineffective because what happenswith shame is you contract in on
(12:57):
yourself, you become defensive.
It puts you into survival modelike no other emotion.
And that's why I've identifiedthat shame, it's not a normal
emotion at all.
Shame is more than just thatbelief that I'm bad.
It's that those beliefs that I'mbad, there's something wrong
with me, I'm defective, areactually downstream from what
(13:19):
shame is, first of all, becauseshame is a toxic cocktail of a
bunch of different things: self-loathing, fear of your (13:23):
undefined
power, disgust, anger towardsthe self.
It's all of these things, like atoxic cocktail of emotions that
are turned against the self, andthese feelings like I am bad,
I'm defective, there's somethingwrong with me.
That stems from that.
(13:44):
So we're taught that shame,we're taught that shame is good
for you, that we need a bit ofshame, but this doesn't make any
sense.
It's an attack on our ownidentity, it's an attack on who
we are.
How can this be good for us?
The only thing that shame isgood for is the people that want
to keep us under control andkeep us small.
That's it.
Shame is not like any otheremotion.
(14:05):
If we look at anger, if we lookat fear, if we look like anger,
those two, for example.
So anger, somebody's crossed myboundary.
I have to say no.
Anger is positive then in thatcase.
Same with fear.
I get really afraid.
There's a car coming, I need torun off the road because fear is
positive there.
(14:25):
But shame, it has no positivefunction.
The only function of shame is tomanipulate or to be manipulated,
to keep you small, to keep youin your little box, to stay in
your spot and don't move anddon't try to be anything else.
That's all that shame is goodfor.
Shame is good for the people whoare trying people on the top who
are trying to keep everyone elsedown.
(14:45):
And shame is very effective atthat.
But it's not beneficial for,like I said, changing behavior,
remedying behavior, all of thesethings.
Shame actually shuts downempathy, you know, and this
thing, this why we're kind ofgaslit by this belief that you
even Brene Brown, who talks alot about shame, says that if
you don't experience shame, thatwould mean you're a psychopath.
(15:09):
And I just really disagree withthat perspective.
This just shows how normalizedshame has become in our society.
And people like John Bradchow,who wrote a book about shame as
well the years ago, talks abouttoxic shame, but he also talks
about healthy shame.
And this is where I divergedfrom their perspective because
(15:29):
from my from what I can see,shame is always bad.
It has no positive functionexcept to control, to
manipulate, to keep peoplesmall, to keep people in their
little box, and to not try to beto keep people inauthentic, to
keep people under someone else'sthumb.
That's all shame is good for.
So this idea when people talkabout healthy shame, I feel like
(15:53):
these people are talking frominside the shame cage where
shame is normalized and wherethey've accepted that shame is
just what it is to be human.
I totally contest that.
Shame really was invented byhierarchical societies as a mean
mechanism of control.
And particularly theindividualized form of shame
(16:14):
that we see in the Westernworld, this idea that I'm a
sinner and that I have toforgive.
This is a very European ideathat was really disseminated and
brought up to all the world,loads of parts, a lot of parts
in the world through theCatholic Church, through
Christianity.
And if you just think about thatidea that of original sin, I'm a
(16:35):
sinner and I have to forgive,that's a double bind that you
can never get out of.
And that's like serious, you arejust a sinner.
There's nothing you can do.
Now, before Christianity came,for example, in Ireland and
other places, other hierarchicalsocieties, tribal societies, you
you had shame as well.
And you see that in Japan andChina, but it's a collectivist
(16:58):
shame.
I call it collectivist shame asopposed to the individualist
shame that we see in the West.
The collectivist shame is morelike the honor shame.
So you do something, you bringdishonor on the family, you're
shamed for that.
But that is that's kind of alittle bit different.
It's maybe tight slightly lesscorrosive, although it is very
damaging and it does lead topeople analyzing themselves and
(17:21):
suicides as well, because shameis always it always does that.
But it's still by an actionsomething that you've done.
So there is in theory thepossibility of going back.
It's not who you are as a personthat's sinful, it's something
that you've done that'sshameful, and you can
potentially go back and makethings right.
(17:41):
But with this idea of originalsin, no such redemption is
possible because you're just asinner, you're just ashamed of a
of the because you're human.
So that I feel is even morecorrosive and damaging than the
kind of Asian idea of shame orthe collectivist idea of shame
(18:03):
that we see out there.
SPEAKER_00 (18:05):
Yeah, I would have to agree with you because I'm
thinking as you're talking aboutthis, that a small child has no
shame in the beginning untilit's taught to them.
So you don't come into the worldthat way.
SPEAKER_01 (18:18):
I agree with you, but a lot of researchers they
point to children who are likehiding and stuff like that and
say that's shame.
I really feel that's aprojection.
Babies, like you say, that areborn, they experience they're
completely shameless.
They and when I say shameless, Imean it in the positive sense of
the world.
They have no shame.
(18:38):
They have no shame, they'recompletely authentic.
If they're hungry, they cry.
If they need something, theycry.
They don't repress their needs.
And that's what shame teaches usto do.
It teaches you to repress yourneeds, that you're not good
enough that your needs aren't asimportant as someone else's.
And when children hide, they're,I don't think it's all
necessarily shame.
(18:59):
I think that's a projection fromus as a society because we are
so shame-infused that we projectit everywhere.
And children, obviously, theyare taught shame.
They're taught shame.
I mean, they're told you have noshame.
They're shamed all the time as away to get them to behave the
way they want.
So we're taught this is the waywe're we make people do what we
(19:20):
want.
This is how we're told what todo through shaming.
So, of course, they learn shame,but I don't believe that it's
that it's inherent to what it isto be human.
I believe this is an idea thatcomes through hierarchical
societies and that even in thecollectivist form, again, it's
always about control and it'salways the people on the top
that they get to control.
(19:41):
It's not really caring for theperson that's shamed, it's about
the person doing the shaming.
Like I said, if I'm shaming achild here, um, I might tell
myself, oh, I'm doing it for hisown good.
I want to keep him safe, but no,I'm doing it for my own comfort.
And when I I'm that might be alie that I tell myself that I'm
doing it for his own good, butreally my comfort is the
(20:04):
priority.
And that's always the case withshame.
The shamer is the person whotakes priority.
So it's an egotistical, it'salways a manipulation when you
shame someone.
SPEAKER_00 (20:15):
Yeah, I'm sitting here thinking about my own
parenting that I've done with mychildren, and I have definitely
used shame thinking that I wasdoing the right thing, but
looking back on it, you'reright, it was for my comfort.
So I can see that.
Tell me a little bit about oncewe recognize that in ourselves,
(20:36):
how do we eliminate it?
SPEAKER_01 (20:38):
Yes.
Well, the first thing is toreally recognize that shame is
not positive, that it never hasa positive function.
That's really important.
Because if you don't recognizethat, you're not going to be
able to draw the line in thesound.
But I do have a system that Iteach people to really start
breaking up with shame becauseshame is a collective trance
(21:02):
that we're all under.
And like I said, I believe thatshame is the number one reason
why we can't be authentic, whywe can't succeed in the world
and scarcity and things likethat.
These are like the foot soldiersof shame.
Shame says you're not goodenough, and scarcity enforces
our scarcity enforces that idea.
(21:22):
You don't have enough, you can'thave that, you've too little.
It keeps you small, basically.
So that's the only thing shameis good for.
So you've really got torecognize that shame has no
positive function, that itdoesn't make you a better
person.
That's really important.
That's the foundation piece toreally start letting go of
shame.
Because while you're stillholding on to that illusion,
(21:44):
you're gonna still think thatwhen you're shaming yourself or
when someone that it's can bebeneficial for making you a
better person.
And this is the thing that Ihave such a problem with that
we're collectively taughtculturally, like even if you
look at the hustle culture,shame affects women immensely
because you know, all the thingslike self-sabotage,
procrastination, peoplepleasing, imposter syndrome,
(22:08):
these are all shame at the root.
Shame is the root cause, andthese are symptoms of shame.
Men don't experience impostersyndrome so much, but if you
look at the whole kind of hustleculture, you've got to fight,
you gotta do it, you gotta showthem.
This is again very shaming.
And the reason why they do it isbecause it looks good in the
moment.
And some therapists use shame,some coaches use shame because
(22:31):
it looks, it's fast, it'seffective, it looks very
impressive in the moment, but ithas little to no medium to long
term efficacy.
It's it's short term and it'salways toxic, it always leaves
that toxic imprint becauseyou're attacking the person
rather than attacking the actionthat they took.
(22:51):
So it's very different fromguilt.
Guilt is that belief that I'vedone something bad, and shame is
that I am bad.
So when we feel I am bad, it'slike, how do you even start to
change your behavior?
It, like I said, it impedes thatbehavior change because it makes
you feel it puts you in survivalmode, basically, obviously,
because your identity is beingattacked, and you're probably
(23:14):
that voice in your head isshaming you, and it's like, oh,
you're not good enough, you'vegot to hide, you've got to get
this is why people in cults getdefensive, because again, cults
are narcissistic systems, sothey have that exact same format
and utilize shame.
This is why people in cults,when you critique anything about
(23:35):
it, they feel personallyattacked and may even punch you
in the face because theyexperience that criticism as an
attack on themselves.
So this is what shame does.
And shame, like if we look atwhat's happening right now in
the world, when people have beenscapegoated, for example, they
have all this shame that theycan't digest.
(23:57):
And there are two things thatyou can do with it.
You can internalize the shameand put it against yourself and
become an alcoholic or an addictor kill yourself, or you can
find someone, another target,find another scapegoat.
This is why people who've beenabused or sexually abused, they
often go on to be abusers ofthemselves because they're
(24:17):
carrying all this shame.
And the way to get it to giveyourself some relief is to find
someone else to be the victim tothat, find another scapegoat,
basically.
And you can see that happeningin the collective right now.
Israel, former scapegoat, formergolden child, autocrat now in
their own right, and now theyfound their own scapegoat in the
(24:40):
Palestinians and are basicallyreenacting history now and
projecting all their shame onthem and trying to kill their
shame by committing genocide.
So this is shame is a veryserious thing.
It's not a it's not a joke, it'snever beneficial, and yet we're
taught in society that it's goodfor you.
(25:00):
So you've got to recognize thatit's never ever good for you,
and that it's actually it'spoison.
It's poison, toxic, always, evena little bit, always toxic.
So that's important.
I can't stress that enough, butI know I've stressed it a lot.
But then getting on to theacronym that I have is BRIKE,
B-R-E-A-K.
(25:22):
So when shame strikes, ithijacks your body.
It's like I don't know if you'vehad a shame attack, but make can
make you go feel really hot.
It can make you contract in yourbody.
You want to disappear, all thatself-loathing.
So the first thing you want todo is be break the trance,
recognize that this isn't yourvoice, it's a spell, it's a
(25:43):
pattern, it's a trance state.
So you've got to catch it,interrupt it, and name it.
Recognize that, name it.
This is a trance.
You don't argue with the trance,you just name it, and that
automatically starts to disruptthe loop.
So then you go on to R, which isimportant.
This is refuse to engage becausewhen shame comes along, we want
(26:04):
to fight with it, we want totell it's wrong.
We want to so Dr.
Ramani, who's the expert innarcissists out there in the
world, she talks about deep.
Don't defend, don't engage,don't explain, and don't
personalize.
And we've got to do exactly thatwith this voice in our head.
So don't try to defend yourselfif it says you've got a big nose
or you're too fat or you'relooking ugly today, or whatever
(26:27):
the BS or you've got cellulite,whatever the BS it's spouting,
don't try to defend yourself,don't engage or explain or make
just say not today.
You've got to just cut it offbecause it's a shell, it's got
no power without you.
Then the third one is E exposethe lie.
This means call out theshame-based programming.
(26:49):
So if it's telling you thatyou've got too many wrinkles or
you've got a fat ass or whateverit is, that's not that's not
true.
That's compared to what, youknow, this is always about
control.
This is not truth, this is notyour story, and really speaking
that truth again disarms itspower.
So that's E.
Then you go on to A.
(27:10):
Like I said, shame takes you outof your body, it hijacks you and
puts you into survival mode.
So you need to anchor in truth.
That means come back to yourbody, feel your breath, plant
your feet, say your name and theyear, and really remind your
nervous system.
You can even touch yourself, youknow, I'm soothe yourself like
(27:32):
this.
I'm safe, I'm sovereign, I'mhere.
And then finally, Kay, kick itout.
You can physically stomp it out,shake it out, say it aloud.
This is not mine.
And you do not have to take theshame.
Shame is a choice, it's anunconscious choice.
We need to have this innernarcissist in our ear agreeing
(27:54):
with it in order to experienceshame.
I was talking to someone in apodcast a few weeks ago.
They were talking about theiraunt when she was a child, she
was eating ice cream, but shewas a little bit of a plump
plump child, and she was withher friend, and some adult went
up to her and said, Youshouldn't be eating that ice
cream, you'll get fat.
And these girls they could haveexperienced so much shame,
(28:15):
dropped their ice cream andleft.
They laughed in his face, theylaughed in his face and
continued eating the ice cream.
So, this is the thing (28:23):
you do not have to engage with shame
when someone tries to shame you,or when the voice in your head
or that shame entity tries toshame you, you do not have to
take it.
You dis that is not you, andthat's important, that's why I
call it the inner narcissist.
We're taught that this thing isa wounded child, that it's you.
(28:46):
I'm telling myself that I'mstupid.
No, it's not you, it's yournarcissist, it's this parasite
that you've been carryingaround, and that really helps
you take back your power fromit.
But you never have to letyourself be shamed.
What I'm saying is that shame isa habit, it's an addiction that
we as a society have.
It's an addiction, we'readdicted to shame.
(29:07):
And we need to unaddictourselves collectively, but we
can start individually, andthat's a very that's a power
move because, like I said, themore we exercise this shame
demon, the more we immunizeourselves from shame.
We become more and moreshameless, we become unshamable,
and that means we become moreauthentic, we become more true
(29:28):
to us ourselves, we stand in ourtruth, nobody can push us around
and manipulate us anymore.
We become that light for otherpeople, and there are very few
people out there in the worldwho are living without shame in
the true meaning of the word.
SPEAKER_00 (29:42):
Yeah, I gotta tell you, I love this because it
gives more hope, if you ask me,that you could get rid of that
because it's not part of you,it's yeah, its own being.
So, yeah, that's me.
Do you know?
Notice that when people try togo through this, does it fight
(30:03):
back harder to stay alive?
You know, that inner narcissistwhen you first start trying to
get rid of it?
Well, it's a practice, I'll behonest.
SPEAKER_01 (30:11):
It's a simple process.
But if you've been practicingshame and feeding it, feeding
this beast or whatever you wantto call it, this parasite for
30, 40, 50 years, it's got a bitof momentum, right?
So you've got to really make adecision.
That's really what it is.
You've got to make a decision.
It's not good for me.
(30:32):
I'm not doing this anymore.
That's important.
But without that decision,nothing is going to work.
So you've got to make thatdecision for yourself and decide
that you want to live withoutshame.
And that's it's kind of radicalbecause we're, like I said,
we're taught everywhere thatshame is good for you, that it
keeps you being a good person.
And what I'm saying is the exactopposite, it's 180 degrees from
(30:56):
that.
I'm saying shame is the root ofall our I can't say all our
problems, because someone isgoing to say, what about this?
But so many of the problems,mental health issues, issues in
the world, we can trace themback to shame.
Shame as the originator, ourmajor driver of this
dysfunction.
So we need to cut this off.
(31:18):
This is no good for us, and thisis bad for us as human beings
and a society.
Living from shame, it's onlygood for the people who want to
keep us down and the people atthe top.
When because when we're livingout of shame, we feel small, we
feel powerless, we feel like wecan't, we feel helpless, we feel
hopeless, and we don't doanything to change our
(31:39):
situation.
That's what that's what shamedoes.
It puts you into freeze mode.
How is that help you change yourbehavior?
It makes no sense.
But like I said, it's becauseshame has been so normalized as
a as a as particularly inWestern culture, that it's been
normalized, and the people justsee it as something that of what
part of what it is to be human.
(32:01):
And I've realized that no, no,shame has no positive function.
You don't need it, not ever, noteven a little bit, not even
children, never.
You don't need shame to be agood person.
Shame makes you worse personevery single time.
SPEAKER_00 (32:17):
So I'm wondering, you've got this process you call
it break, right?
Yeah, what happens to someonewhen they're going through this?
Have you actually done this withyourself and done this with
others?
SPEAKER_01 (32:31):
Yes, yeah, I have done it with myself and done it
with others.
And yeah, it's really empoweringbecause in the moment when shame
might come and tempt you, but inthe moment you say, No, not
today, bitch.
Not today.
And you when you reallyrecognize that this is not your
protector, that it's not comingto help you, that it has zero
(32:53):
benefit whatsoever.
And this is the key, becausewe've been all brainwashed to
think that shame will make youbetter, or if you beat yourself
up enough and whip yourself onthe back, this is the kind of
Christian penance thing.
We've all been taught that if webeat ourselves up enough, that
we'll become better.
And it's the actually theopposite is true.
If you're training dogs, it doeswork.
(33:14):
If you're training animals, itdoes work to use torture, but
much better to use.
I mean, it's much better to usethe carrot and not the stick.
But we've been taught this way.
And we need to, we're under thistrance that this is the only
way.
And if we do something bad, Iwas talking to someone the other
day, and he was taught this ishe was told by his therapist
(33:35):
that it's good that you feelshame because you've done so
many bad things.
So this is the conventionalwisdom out there that you need
shame if you've done bad thingsin your life.
Shame is seen as a moralcompass.
And I completely contest that.
I think it's absolutely a flawedpremise.
That's what it is.
(33:55):
So it's a flawed premise, it'scoming from a completely flawed
premise, and it'scounterproductive in helping
people to transform, torecognize that they've made
mistakes, as we all have, andwe've all done bad things to
other people, we've all hurtother people, but we don't need
shame to remedy those mistakes.
And this is the kind of this iswhat's being pointed to by
(34:18):
people who defend shame.
They're saying that you needshame in order to recognize that
you've done something bad.
You don't.
You need more empathy.
That they say that you needshame to know that you're not
God.
You don't.
That's humility.
Shame doesn't do that.
Shame just makes you shrink upinto little ball and die.
We don't need shame for never.
(34:39):
It's never beneficial, but it'sjust been so normalized that
even therapists and counselorsand coaches talk about it as if
it's some kind of moral compasswhen that is a complete
fabrication of our society,always designed to manipulate
people and keep people small.
SPEAKER_00 (34:57):
Wow, I gotta tell you, like I said, I'd never
heard of this before, but I'mgetting my head wrapped around
it, and I totally agree withwhat you're saying.
I wonder, people that go throughthis, can you tell me about the
kind of life they have once theyhave battled this shame and this
(35:17):
inner narcissist, and they'vecome to a place where they're
not fighting with it anymore?
How is life different?
SPEAKER_01 (35:26):
Well, you become empowered, so you go from like
totally disempowered by beingcontrolled by this voice, by
feeling like, oh my god, I can'tpick up the phone, I can't do
this thing, by feeling helplesswithin your own life to feeling
empowered.
And when you address the shame,then there can be like other
things like scarcity.
It's like the enforcer of shame.
(35:48):
So that can also be a piecethat's left after you address
these main shame pieces.
But yeah, the more you eliminateshame, the more you can manifest
the life that you want.
Because shame is basically ananchor that keeps you, it's very
low vibration, it keeps youstuck.
This is why people, when they'retrying to visualize and do
(36:08):
affirmations, a lot of timesthey don't get the results they
want.
Oftentimes because they'recarrying so much shame that says
you don't deserve it or youcan't have it, or you know, that
that cocktail of stuff that Italked about, even if they're
not consciously aware of it.
And lots of us are carryingshame and we're not consciously
(36:29):
tuned into it, but it's there inyour energy and it's affecting
you, even if if you don't knowit's there.
One example of a lady that I'veworked with, she's a personal
trainer, and she was reallystruggling to get people into
her program and to say yes toher, and they were arguing with
her on the price constantly.
After I worked with her on theseissues, she said she found it so
(36:53):
easy to get people in.
She was really struggling, andshe went from a place where
people were trying to negotiatewith her on price, where not one
person were just saying yeswithout trying to negotiate with
her.
And she was using the exact samescript.
I didn't change her script onebit.
She was using the same script,but the difference was she was
(37:14):
showing up as a differentperson, she was showing up more
confident in herself becausetrue confidence, again, it's the
opposite of shame.
You can't experience shame andexperience true confidence.
You can experience false pride,which is what narcissists
experience.
That's why they get triggeredand then they get angry and
defensive when someone triggersshame because they're it's all
(37:35):
built on um, it's all built onsand, the image that they've
created, or the self-imagethey've created, the pride, the
false pride.
But real confidence isn't likethat.
Real confidence is quiet.
Real confidence, I don't need toprove anything to you.
No, I I know I'm great.
I don't need to tell you or talkto you about how great you feel
that you you it's in my energy.
(37:57):
You don't, I don't need to goand brag about it.
That's a sign of a lack ofconfidence.
So you go from that to fromtrying really hard from
struggling to surrendering toreally starting to trust
yourself and to let go of and tostart just floating and being
receiving things in life ratherthan feeling like you have to
(38:17):
struggle and fight for things.
So there's a lot more ease,there's a lot more flow, there's
a lot more trust in yourself andin other people, and just
generally feeling lighter, noteven no matter what's going on,
and life isn't perfect, life hasups and downs, no matter if you
have shame for a heavy dose ofshame or not, but you deal with
(38:40):
it in a different way, you dealwith it in a confident manner.
So instead of beating yourselfup, oh, why woe is me?
Why is this happening to me?
And staying in that hole fordays, weeks, months, years going
into depression.
I've been depressed, I knowabout this from personal
experience.
Shame is a massive driver againof depression.
(39:01):
I don't think I certainlycouldn't have been depressed
without the shame that wasdriving it.
So yeah, when you're free ofshame, you just don't care what
anyone else thinks.
You're just living for yourself,you're free.
It's really the only the onlyway that you can be free when
you're free of shame.
You don't care what other peoplethink of you.
(39:21):
And again, it's a process, it'syou're leaning into this every
day.
So you're releasing layers ofshame, and maybe something will
happen, and you might you feelbut you'll recognize the shame
and you'll be able to releaseit.
Shame will never have the samehold on you that it used to
have, you know, back in the daywhere shame basically ruled your
life.
So it's about this is abouttaking back your power wholly
(39:44):
and completely from shame,because we're all being
manipulated by shame.
We think we're free, but we'reoperating out of trauma
responses.
We think we're making choices,but if we if you're operating
out from shame or from trauma,and again, shame is one of the
main things that keeps traumagoing down through generations,
(40:05):
are why animals experiencetrauma, but they're not still
thinking about it and wonderingabout it 20 years later.
Human beings do, and thedifference is shame is a huge
driver of that.
So without shame, we won't holdon to things so much, we won't
take things personally.
If people reject project shameon us, we'll be like, return to
(40:28):
sender.
I'm not taking that.
You can take your gift back, andthis is the real power move in
all of this.
It's quiet, but it is superpowerful.
It's the it's the ultimate powermove, maybe not a flex because
other people aren't necessarilyseeing it, but people will
notice it in your energy 100%.
You will be a different person.
SPEAKER_00 (40:48):
That sounds wonderful to have that new
energy and that new confidenceand all of that.
And honestly, you explain thisso well.
Do you have a book or anythingout there?
SPEAKER_01 (40:58):
Yeah, the book is something that I do have a book
in my head, but at the moment Ihave a Substack, so I've been
writing a lot on Substack.
So you can find me there, traumamatrix.substack.com.
So that's where you can find mywritings about shame.
And yeah, really feel like thisif people, if we as a society
(41:19):
take this on board and step outof shame, this can be a massive
game changer, not just forindividuals like you and me, but
for us as a collective.
SPEAKER_00 (41:29):
Definitely.
I can see it making a hugedifference in how everything's
run.
So if someone wants to work withyou, how can they find you other
than Substack?
SPEAKER_01 (41:40):
Yeah, you can reach out to me on my socials.
I'm trauma.matrix on Instagramand everywhere on Facebook.
Um I also have a free gift foryou guys, so that's probably a
great place to start.
The free gift is five signs thatit's time to break up with your
inner narcissist.
So this is for people who arelistening and thinking, that's
(42:00):
me.
I have that going on.
Maybe I need to do somethingabout it.
Maybe you're raising your hand.
So this gives you five classicsigns that this narcissist is
really ruling your life andyou're not free.
And also gives you tools andstrategies to start taking your
taking back your power from it.
But really, the first step isawareness.
(42:21):
And if you've been woken up bythis conversation today, I
encourage you to do that becauseI mean it's all very well to
listen to good conversations,but you've got to act on that if
you really want, if you'rereally serious about changing
your life.
And this is a free step for you.
It's a free gift, so definitelycheck that out.
You can find it at tinyurl.comforward slash not today narc
(42:46):
N-A-R-C.
Not today narc.
SPEAKER_00 (42:48):
And I will put that in the show notes too, so
everybody can just find iteasily.
And I gotta tell you, I'm gonnabe looking at it because this
has totally woke me up, and Itotally am sitting here
thinking, oh my gosh, that's whyI'm not getting ahead with the
things I want to move aheadwith, is that shame is holding
me back.
So yeah, I'll be getting it.
SPEAKER_01 (43:08):
Shame is the root of perfectionism, procrastination,
all that stuff.
These are symptoms of shame.
And like, why it why if you'rejust trying to address the
symptoms, it's like you're justplaying whack-a-mole with a
bunch of symptoms.
Shame is the root cause.
So we've got to go to the we'vegot to go to the cause if we're
serious about transforming thesethings.
SPEAKER_00 (43:27):
I'm with you, and I totally appreciate you coming on
today, Emma, and letting us allin on this because I think this
needs to, I don't know if youneed to do a TEDx talk or what
you need to do, but everybodyneeds to hear this.
So thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (43:42):
Yeah, I think it's a it's an empowering message.
It's not shaming, it's givingpeople back their power.
SPEAKER_00 (43:48):
Yeah, definitely.
I love that.
All right, is there anythingthat you'd like to leave our
audience with today, other thanthis wonderful gift?
Any last words?
SPEAKER_01 (43:58):
Well, I would say stop letting shame rule your
life and take back your power.
Yeah, you can do it, you deserveit.
It's you weren't born for this.
You weren't born to be a slaveof shame.
And it's nothing without you.
The that that inner narcissist,it's got nothing.
It's an empty, it's a parasite.
It you don't stop coddling it,stop sending it love, stop
(44:21):
taking it to therapy and takeback your power.
I love that.
SPEAKER_00 (44:26):
All right, thank you, Emma.
Thank you.
If this conversation litssomething up for you, here are
your next brave steps.
Grab Emma's free guide, fivesigns you need to break up with
your inner gnar.
The link in the show notes.
Go print it, highlight it, talkback to that voice, and take
your power back.
(44:47):
Follow Emma on Instagram andFacebook at TomaMaker.
And read her writing onFacebook, which I've linked in
the notes.
Share this episode with someonewho's tired of the people.
Put in the same companytogether.
And if you want to get some helpmethod, you can always find the
(45:11):
football for the first method.
Remember, the same boy is afancy.
It has no power without words.
Name it, say nothing.
Fill your feet, say your name,every year, and come back to
(45:32):
you.
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